1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, 2 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for tuning in. 3 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: Please pardon the slightly batman esque tone of my voice 4 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: here on the other side of some whether a big 5 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: shout out to our super producer, mister Max Williams. 6 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 2: For a second time, the Batman of podcasting. 7 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: Thanks, you're an old brown. I'm Ben Bolan peak behind 8 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: the curtain here. We had some we had some plot twist, 9 00:00:55,320 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: some shyamalan esque shenanigans. This is our second time. I'm 10 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: starting a story that we think is endlessly fascinating. And Noel, 11 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: before things went a little pair of shaped, you were 12 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: about to blow everybody's mind with a story about Roco's 13 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: The Modern Life. 14 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 3: I don't remember how it came up, because it doesn't 15 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 3: matter at this point. But did you guys know that Rocco, 16 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 3: I believe he's a wallaby on the nineteen nineties Nickelodeon 17 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 3: children's cartoon was in fact a phone sex operator. 18 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 4: I did not, but I know that now because it's 19 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:31,119 Speaker 4: the second time we've done this intro. 20 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 5: But also it's a gig economy. 21 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 3: Well, you know the proof is in the cartoon Pudding. 22 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 3: If you look at the evening, I mean I remember now. 23 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 3: It's like remembering a dream or something. But it does 24 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 3: play into the plot of the show. But even just 25 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 3: in the opening titles of the cartoon, you can see 26 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 3: Roco in his job as a specialty phone operator, and 27 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 3: on the wall behind it it says hotline. 28 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 2: And there's a sign on the wall in his. 29 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 3: Little cubicle says remember, be hot, be naughty, be courteous. Yeah, 30 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 3: and you can find it online. There's memes about it, 31 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 3: but there's subtitles of what he's says. Oh baby, oh baby, 32 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 3: oh baby. I just yeah, they really snug a lot 33 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 3: of pretty raunchy stuff back in those days. Ren and 34 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 3: Stimpy being one of the primary offenders. 35 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: Well, I would say, you know, rewatch some bugs Bunny 36 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: cartoons as well. Noel, what about today's episode brought to 37 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 1: mind phone sex operation, Rocko's modern life. 38 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 3: Absolutely nothing, I would almost I'm trying to think of 39 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 3: a clever tie in, but I don't know. It just 40 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 3: popped into my nogg and, as things tend to do. 41 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 3: But we are talking about a subject that has some 42 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 3: heaviness to it potentially, and Ben, you did the deep 43 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 3: dive on this research, and I think you did a 44 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 3: fantastic job in emphasizing the ridiculousness and maybe not downplaying, 45 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 3: but some of the heaviness. We're certainly not gonna be 46 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 3: in trigger warning territory today, But we are talking about 47 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 3: children and orphans in particular, and the kind of epidemic 48 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:14,679 Speaker 3: of you know, children that didn't have parents and it 49 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 3: didn't have a place to live back in the olden times, 50 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 3: back in the eighteen fifties into the early nineteen hundreds, 51 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 3: and what sounds like a WTF solution, what if we 52 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 3: just loaded them all onto trains and bust them out? 53 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 3: Might initially hit you in the way that you hear 54 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 3: about cities busting out unhoused people when a big event 55 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 3: comes through, which is a pretty heartless. 56 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 2: Way, yeah, of dealing with the problem. But this is 57 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 2: not that at all. 58 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 3: No. 59 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, according to one famously precocious musical redhead, being an 60 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: orphan is a hard knock life. Now, you know, pick 61 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: your poison. In a upcoming episode of Stuff they Don't 62 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: want you to know, we're discussing the dark sides of 63 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: the adoption industry, and as you said up NOL during 64 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: the course of this research, we came across a disturbing 65 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: and very true tale of ridiculous history. 66 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 5: This is a factual. 67 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: Event, folks, not an historical piece of apocrypha or a 68 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 1: legend or a myth. Once upon a time, the United 69 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: States government literally stole orphans and auctioned them from train stops, 70 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: from train depots across. 71 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 5: The United States. 72 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: And I love that you're pointing out the clear comparison 73 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:51,239 Speaker 1: there between the idea of cities bussing out quote unquote undesirables. 74 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 5: Right. 75 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: We saw this in Atlanta when the Olympics visited. We 76 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: see this in we talked about several years ago, the 77 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: state of Hawaii once upon a time had a plan 78 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: to address their homeless population by shipping them off to 79 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: purpose built islands where they would be given a minimum 80 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 1: of shelter and food, of course a one way ticket 81 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: to the mainland exactly. 82 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 3: And we're seeing it right now with the Olympic Games 83 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 3: happening in Paris. They're cleaning up the sand so that 84 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 3: they can do their their swim the triathlon type things 85 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 3: in there. I'm not a sport person, but you. 86 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:28,559 Speaker 2: Get the idea. 87 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 3: There was a big spectacle that was made with I 88 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 3: believe the mayor swimming in a wetsuit in the typically 89 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 3: quite polluted San River, showing that it's safe for all 90 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 3: the Olympians to do their events there. But the city 91 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 3: of Paris is in fact busting out the unhoused population, 92 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 3: and it's pretty callous move. 93 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 2: And you know, Ben, you pointed. 94 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 3: Out this idea of the auctioning of it, which of 95 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 3: course brings to mind all kinds of horrific historical foot 96 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 3: notes landmarks throughout this country and beyond. But there is 97 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 3: a sort of not silver lining exactly. But their heart 98 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 3: was in the right place aspects to this story, or 99 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 3: at least the person who kind of came up with 100 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 3: the concept before it was derailed. Let's just say not 101 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 3: to use a train pun, but also you know, to 102 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 3: use it nice. 103 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. 104 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: The Orphan Train movement was what we will call a 105 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 1: supervised welfare program, and the idea was you would transport children, 106 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: originally from New York but later from other crowded eastern 107 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: cities of the US, and you would take these kids 108 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: and via rail you would take them to foster homes, 109 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: largely in rural areas of the Midwest Midwestern United States. 110 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: These orphan trains, as we mentioned, operated between eighteen fifty 111 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: four and nineteen twenty nine, and look, like we just said, folks, 112 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: you can tell we're a little baffled by it when 113 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: you first hear this story, especially as we record in 114 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: July twenty two, twenty four. So many news stories feature 115 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: lurid reports of human trafficking, and this might sound like 116 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: another one of those. But to that earlier point, we 117 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: have to understand the context in which this emerged. New 118 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: York City in the eighteen fifties was gross. It's this 119 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: is not a political point, it's not a you know, 120 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: it's not a holier than now point. It just kind 121 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: of sucked for the majority of people. There was this 122 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: huge influx of new immigrants, you know, picture of the 123 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: classic Ellis Island moment they're crowded into the city. Add 124 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: to that numerous financial panics and depression creating disastrous unemployment. 125 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,559 Speaker 1: This was pre the Great Depression, but things were still 126 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: going bad. And then affordable housing. 127 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 5: Not really a thing, not really a. 128 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 3: Thing well, and certainly the kinds of public services that 129 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 3: you know, even today still struggle to properly deal with 130 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 3: these type of problems. You know, on a on an 131 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 3: infrastructural I guess level just didn't even exist. You know, 132 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 3: public programs like proper you know, shelters and and food programs, 133 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 3: food assistance programs. It was very much every man, woman, 134 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 3: and yes, child for themselves situation. 135 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 4: And you really think about the timeline wise. The assistance 136 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 4: program in New York City right now is called Tammany Hall. 137 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 4: So there's that whole giant bag of badgers, corruption, awful 138 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 4: stuff there. It's like, you know, the flaunting your wealth 139 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 4: at this point in time with having your own toilet. 140 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, look upon my look upon my poops. He 141 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 1: mighty and despair. 142 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, and if I haven't gotten to go, And I 143 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 3: think this is something we should maybe all organized. But 144 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 3: the Tenement Museum in New York City really speaks to 145 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 3: this period. 146 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 2: And in a very powerful way. 147 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 3: You know, these tenements were the closest thing to I 148 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 3: guess public housing that exists did, but they were slums. 149 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 3: They were basically for profits, and oftentimes you would be 150 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 3: sharing a toilet or an outhouse type situation with at 151 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 3: times hundreds of other people. So it was bad, smelly, 152 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 3: inhumane times. 153 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, not to mention structurally unsound. So tenement fires, disease 154 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: spread at a cartoonish rate. Tens of thousands of children 155 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: due to these circumstances ended up on the street. We're 156 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,959 Speaker 1: talking very young children. We're talking about the kind of 157 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: children that if you saw them in your local neighborhood today, 158 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: you would be immediately concerned and wonder where their parents were. 159 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: Because there was no social safety net, no welfare or 160 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: institutionalized social services. I want to say, outside a rich philanthropists, 161 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 1: these kids were forced to roam the streets in search 162 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: of money, food, and shelter, and each of these children 163 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,719 Speaker 1: was pray for disease and crime. This is where we 164 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: see those old story tropes of selling matches or rags 165 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: or junk or newspapers. Just to survive, they had to 166 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: form gangs to prevent themselves from being abused in unspeakable ways, 167 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: and the police were not helping. The police were and look, 168 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: we know some folks in NYPD today, this is not 169 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: those folks. The eighteen hundred's police were often arresting children 170 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: that might be as young as five years old and 171 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: locking them up for extended periods of time in crowded 172 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: jails with adult criminals. And look, we said, we're Family show. 173 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: We're not gonna spend a lot of time on the 174 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,079 Speaker 1: details of what happened to so many of these kids, 175 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: but we will say pretty much every horrific thing you 176 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: can imagine did in fact occur. This is not hyperbole. 177 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of kids and luckily we're not there. No, 178 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: we have a hero or someone who is nobly intentioned 179 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: who sees this. 180 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 2: One hundred percent. 181 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 3: And if you want like a visual for this era, 182 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 3: the UK version would probably be Oliver Twists, you know, 183 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 3: I mean, that's older, but it is that type of 184 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 3: vibe with these street gangs, and oftentimes street gangs that 185 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 3: are run by very predatory adults, you know, who are 186 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 3: like teaching these kids to pickpocket and using them as tools, 187 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 3: you know, for their particular criminal enterprise. An American example 188 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 3: would be Newsy's if I believe, that takes place around 189 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 3: eighteen ninety nine, so kind of right in the midst 190 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 3: of this the story for its own episode, I believe 191 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 3: because there was you know, with William Randolph Hurst and 192 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 3: his newspaper organizations. This did create low paying yet there 193 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 3: were opportunities, you know, for some of these kids, but 194 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 3: they were also being used and abused in different ways, 195 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 3: you know, by that type of organization. But think of 196 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 3: the term like street waifs, you know, the little urchin, 197 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 3: you know, stuff like that. 198 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, they called them in this time in New York, 199 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: they would call these kids street arabs because they were 200 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: known to be wandering about. And look, if you've ever 201 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: spent time in New York City, you know that the 202 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 1: seasons can be rough. So some of these kids were 203 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 1: freezing to death as well. In eighteen fifty three, there's 204 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,719 Speaker 1: this young minister, his name Charles Loring Brace, and he 205 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: gets obsessed with these kids, and he's looking around and 206 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: he's saying, isn't this the greatest country on the planet. 207 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: Isn't this one of the best cities in one of 208 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: the greatest countries? Why is this happening? And he comes 209 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 1: from a pretty well heeled Connecticut family. He's in New 210 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: York as a seminary student, and he is not prepared 211 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: for this level of depravity in dystopia. So he says 212 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: there's only one way to help what he called children 213 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: of unhappy fortune. He said, the great duty is to 214 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: get utterly out of their surroundings and to send them 215 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: away to kind Christian homes in the country because again, 216 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: you know, he's a seminary student, so he's not sending 217 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: them to the I guess the burgeoning atheist population of 218 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: agricultural Minnesota. 219 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: Well, you know. 220 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 3: And the problem too is not only are these kids 221 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 3: just left to their own devices without any assistance you know, 222 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 3: from the government or from any you know, people that 223 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,559 Speaker 3: are offering a helping hand. They're basically growing up in 224 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 3: a situation that is just going to reinforce the negative 225 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 3: parts of this situation and put them on a path 226 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 3: to a life of crime because that's all they know, 227 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 3: and no one was helping them, and there becomes this 228 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 3: resentment and this you know, like why should I follow 229 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 3: the law if the law isn't helping me, you know. 230 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 3: And that's a very understandable perspective, as as the perspective 231 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 3: of brace the idea of if we remove them from 232 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 3: this element and put them outside of that, will that 233 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 3: not ultimately be better for them, you know, in long 234 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 3: term just in terms of their like experience, their upbringing, 235 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 3: you know, what lessons they might learn and what kinds 236 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 3: of adults they might become. 237 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's well put Noel, and I really appreciate you 238 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: saying that because Brace believed the city and these environments, 239 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: these cycles of abuse and addiction and horror, they were 240 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: inappropriate for kids. Again, it's heartbreaking to imagine a five 241 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: year old stuck on the streets, homeless. And you know, 242 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: here in the United States you might not see it 243 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: as often, but if you've traveled, especially outside of the 244 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: developed world, these kind of horrors are still a reality. 245 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: So it's tough for us to disagree with what Brace 246 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: is saying, and we can't blame him for taking a stand. 247 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: He was trying to figure out us a lou right, 248 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: because the typical charity stuff wasn't working. What would happen 249 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: here is that the elite, whether that's religious elite or 250 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: whether that's socio political elite of very corrupt New York 251 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: at the time, they would have like a charity ball, 252 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: or they'd have a benefit and they give all the 253 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: kids in the neighborhood shoes on Christmas presence. 254 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 2: You know what I mean. 255 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 5: Oh, it's. 256 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 3: More so than things that would actually benefit them long term. 257 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: Right, It's more about the people doing this, it's more 258 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: about themselves than it is about these innocents. And so 259 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: Grace was trying to figure out an innovative solution to this. 260 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: So he figured he landed on something quite clever. He said, 261 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: there's another social issue here. There's another problem that these 262 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: elite New Yorkers don't understand, which is out in the 263 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: rest of America, which is largely agricultural. At this time, 264 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: our industries, our farming industries, are expanding at an unprecedented pace, 265 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: and they need labor. 266 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 5: And he said, you know. 267 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: What, a lot of families also can't have kids for 268 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: one reason or another. So I bet you that these 269 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: upstanding assaults of the earth families will welcome homeless children. 270 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: They'll take them into their homes, they'll treat them as 271 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: if they are their own kid. Pause for a second. Yes, 272 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: in twenty four we know it sounds like it sounds 273 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: like child labor, right, a little bit. 274 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 2: It does. 275 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 3: But also we do know that family farms very much 276 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 3: a thing, and it is a trade, and it is something. 277 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 2: That you know, is a way of learning how. 278 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 3: To contribute to an economy and all of that, and 279 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 3: all of these things. A lot of these these businesses 280 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 3: were family runs, so it would make sense that, you know, 281 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 3: their kids would be working on the farm. And it's 282 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 3: not like they were abused. I mean, certainly there was abuse, 283 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 3: let's not. Can't get it twisted, But in general, just 284 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 3: because you're doing a hard day's work and you're getting 285 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 3: a nice meal and a place to stay, you know, 286 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 3: that would be the way that the actual children of 287 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 3: many of these farm families would have been treated as well. 288 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 3: So the best of them would have been approaching it 289 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 3: with that same attitude. 290 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 5: Absolutely, you know what I mean. 291 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: And most people are inherently good, right if they are 292 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: given the opportunity to be so. Brief route, the best 293 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: of all asylums for the outcast child is the farmer's home. 294 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: And his sort of truism for this was the idea 295 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: that quote, immigration is a cure for pouperism, the idea 296 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: being that if you ship these kids away, then you 297 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: will fix some of those deep intergenerational problems we're talking about. 298 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: And the point still stands today. You know, farmers did 299 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: and do need every set of hands they can find. 300 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: And he said, look, the problems here in New York 301 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: are things like living space and access to food, and 302 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: the Midwest has a lot of that already, So maybe 303 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: we can put the children in a position where they 304 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: will benefit Society as well as benefit themselves. And with 305 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: all this in mind, in eighteen fifty three he founds 306 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: an organization called the Children's Aid Society, and their idea 307 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 1: is to put his wild notion into action. They're going 308 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: to arrange the trips. The Children's Aid Society, by the way, 309 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: had a lot of wealthy elites behind it. So these 310 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: wealthy folks are going to raise all the money through 311 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: the charity balls and the fundraisers to pay for everything. 312 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: They're going to get the paperwork they needed to relocate 313 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 1: these children. And we'll get into where that gets sticky, 314 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: but for right now, I guess to be completely fair, 315 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 1: we should say the CIS was not just a child 316 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: traffic gain operation. They also made trade schools. They built 317 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: share houses we would call them in Australia, you know, 318 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 1: like they built slightly better than tenement ten of group 319 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: homes for kids. And they were also trying to teach 320 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 1: kids how to read and to go to school and 321 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 1: so on and so on. 322 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, Max, I mean, with your you know, research 323 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 3: and expertise in the labor movement, do you have you 324 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 3: run across these types of stories. 325 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 4: I have not really, but like I don't know obviously 326 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 4: putting a bunch of children on a train and shiving 327 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 4: them across the country not great, but like we're really 328 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 4: going into the story, just Machavelli in the side kicking 329 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 4: in and me like, it's a lot better than what 330 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 4: they had. Then it's like, not a great solution, but 331 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 4: it's a better solution. 332 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 5: It's a solution. 333 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 4: You're giving them something other than nothing. 334 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 3: I like the way you put it, Ben, or at 335 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 3: least the way you kind of characterize bracist perspective as 336 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 3: that being in the city was just grossly inappropriate, you 337 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 3: know for what a child needs, which is you know, 338 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 3: care and oversight and a a role model perhaps, And 339 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 3: you know, the idea of this steadfast working American farm 340 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 3: family at its best really is that thing and provides 341 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 3: those things. So I really do see the like positive 342 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 3: outlook version of this idea, but as we know, things 343 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 3: can spiral in negative ways when too many cooks get 344 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 3: in the kitchen. 345 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then as now, some of the coolest, most 346 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: sincere people in the United States come from small towns. 347 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 5: They're rural. You know, they're upfront with you. 348 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: They have new need for guile or subterfuge. So this 349 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 1: was he was kind of romanticizing the idea of these 350 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: farming communities that he himself often had never visited. The 351 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: concepts sold very well in New York. The first orphan train, 352 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: as they would come to be called, was sent out 353 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: by the Children's Aid Society or CIS in eighteen fifty four. 354 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: To your early point, Max, they did have chapper. They 355 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: had like one or two chaperones adults, kind of the 356 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: way you have to have an adult on a long 357 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: field trip. So this group, the first ones on the train, 358 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: they're forty six kids. They have a wide age range. 359 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: We're talking seven years old to fifteen years old. And 360 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 1: they're sent to a place in Michigan. Doa gick do 361 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: agiac the wag yak, the wag yak mission get in 362 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: the nose between Midwest. 363 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 4: It is support here pronunciation on the palm, so Michigan. 364 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 5: Max is holding up the. 365 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: Mitten hand of Michigan and pointing toward If you hold 366 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: it palm to you, it's a it's a in the 367 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: lower right, by the way. 368 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 3: Some really great resources if you're interested in the visual 369 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,959 Speaker 3: another like a documentary, not a not a musical depiction 370 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 3: of this. The American Experience series on PBS has a 371 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 3: fantastic documentary segment on the orphan trains, and there's a 372 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 3: great write up that Ben and I believe you referred 373 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 3: to for this research brief, as well as a fabulous 374 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 3: piece by Aaron Blakemore Orphan trains brought homeless NYC children 375 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 3: to work on farms out west on history dot com. 376 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and thank you for citing those. Let's also give 377 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: a big shout out to Orphan Train deepot dot org, 378 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: which is one of the best scholarly resources to learn 379 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: more about this. There are also several specific books regarding 380 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: this because it affected a lot of people. Now back 381 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: to our first orphan train. Before this trip, something like 382 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: this did exist. There were orphanages in New York that 383 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: have been sending individi jewel kids like your orphan Annies 384 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: per Se, or small groups of children to other foster 385 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: homes within the larger state of New York, but none 386 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 1: of them ever sent a group this large, nor they 387 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: sent a group this far away. It was a heck 388 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: of a gamble because they were literally playing with children's lives, 389 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: but it paid off. By the end of just one week, 390 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: all forty six children had found homes. This was an 391 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: unspeakable success, in Brace's opinion, and it began the orphan 392 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 1: train movement. However, you do have to note they were 393 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: auctioning the kids woolf Yeah, that's a wolf for me dog. 394 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 2: It's a wolf for me to dog. 395 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 3: They did, however, view this as a smashing success. So 396 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 3: the CIS used this as an opportunity to expand their program. 397 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 3: It was, I guess a term developed in the parlance 398 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 3: of the time called place out, which I guess it 399 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 3: makes sense to the idea it's. 400 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 5: Better than sell a child. 401 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. 402 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 3: But yes, but even now, the idea of finding placement 403 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 3: for even like an adopted child, you know, that's that's 404 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 3: still a term that is used in this type of 405 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 3: circle today. 406 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really great point there. And again there 407 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: were there were groups of children that were paired out 408 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: with adult chaperones, and these chaperones would ride with these 409 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 1: kids on the train from New York to these various 410 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: rural destinations. Before the end of this program, over one 411 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 1: hundred thousand children were sent via these orphan trains to 412 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: new homes and farm country. And other organizations picked. 413 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 5: Up on this. 414 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: They said, look, this system works, We're going to adopt it. 415 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 5: We're we're not. 416 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,199 Speaker 1: We're going to follow the lead of the CS. So 417 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: other notable child's care and philanthropic organizations did the same. 418 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: Some of them organize their own groups, you know, just 419 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: sending on different trains. Others would dare I say, farm 420 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 1: out their supply of children to the CS, and they 421 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: would add them onto the next round. Ultimately, more than 422 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: thirty orphanages in New York City have participated in these 423 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 1: placing out programs. A few of the notables New York 424 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 1: Foundling Hospital. I love the word Foundling. It's done right, 425 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: but it's an interesting word. New York Juvenile Asylum, and 426 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: the Female Guardian Society. Folks, You'll notice we keep pointing 427 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: out that this ended in nineteen twenty nine. So right now, 428 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: if you have a kid who needs a home in 429 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: New York City, they're not going to be shipped off 430 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: on a train to you know, Davenport, Iowa or something. 431 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: And that's because the orphan train was, as I think 432 00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: we've established, well intentioned, but as we foreshadowed, it was 433 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: far from perfect. 434 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 5: Not all of these kids were orphans. 435 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, the Children's Aid Society being the largest 436 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 3: and kind of og organization in this program or in 437 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 3: this type of program, they received the brunt of of, 438 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 3: you know, kind of criticism around this method, you know, 439 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 3: of kind of moving moving kids out into the sticks 440 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 3: for the purposes of placing them in farm homes and 441 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 3: family farms. A lot of the people that were the 442 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 3: loudest kind of voices were from other sort of maybe 443 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 3: even competing you know, philanthropic organizations or communities, and they 444 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 3: had some very understandable critiques of some issues that maybe 445 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 3: were not the intention of this, but things that kind 446 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 3: of were byproducts, I guess, or you know, children who 447 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 3: kind of fell between the cracks, because as you mentioned, Ben, 448 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 3: some of these kids were not orphans at all. They 449 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 3: were essentially the children of immigrants who had not been 450 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 3: assimilated into American culture, perhaps did not speak the language. 451 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 3: And I wouldn't go so far as to say we're 452 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 3: easily taken advantage of, but perhaps we're just so down 453 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 3: on their luck that there just wasn't good communication going on, 454 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 3: and maybe the kids were for all into purposes seemed 455 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 3: as though they didn't have parents because they were kind 456 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 3: of out on their own, trying to hustle up a living, 457 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 3: you know, to help their family, but then they were 458 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 3: just sort of lumped in to this program. 459 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's heartbreaking because and I hate to use the 460 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: same word twice there, but we have to realize this 461 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 1: occurs in other parts of the world today. It definitely 462 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 1: occurred in the United Kingdom during the Industrial Revolution. There 463 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: are also there are cases of families this happened in 464 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: the US Greek Depression as well, wherein the parents literally 465 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: cannot afford to take care of their children and so 466 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: they're desperate. Hope is that by consigning them to a 467 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: program like this, or by gifting them, for lack of 468 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: a better word, to another socioeconomic situation, they're giving that 469 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: kid a chance at life the kid would not otherwise have. 470 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, to your point, less than half of the 471 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: children who rode these trains were actual facts orphans shout 472 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: out to Laura and Vogelbaum. As ever, with actual facts, 473 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: as many as one out of four these kids had 474 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:36,880 Speaker 1: two living parents and some of the criticism, I don't know. 475 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: One of the criticisms that really bothers me still is 476 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,959 Speaker 1: there were people in some of the rural communities who 477 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: would say, you're shipping us criminal foreign agitators. 478 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 5: You know what I mean. Or this kid is. 479 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: Sickly or disabled, you gave us a defective kid. 480 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 2: Well, it just reminds me. 481 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:57,959 Speaker 3: I'm not to get political about it or anything, but 482 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,959 Speaker 3: some of the rhetoric around immigration now, the idea that 483 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 3: you're sending murderers and rapists and drugs brailers over the border, 484 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 3: it's it's rhetoric that is based in xenophobia and other 485 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 3: ring and it is It's not cool. And while there 486 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 3: certainly may be, it's even worse when you're talking about kids, 487 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 3: because yeah, you're you're they're in We talked about it. 488 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 3: They're in the situation where maybe their only lot in 489 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 3: life is to be in these gangs, or is to 490 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 3: you know, pickpocket or or do petty crimes. But their children, 491 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 3: you can't really call them criminals, vagabonds or waifs or 492 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 3: whatever without that just having like a real, a real 493 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 3: nasty hyperbolics thing to it. 494 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I could tell this eight year old is a 495 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: papist operative. 496 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 5: I see it. It is Catholic eyes. 497 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, there were there were kids who read like you said, 498 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: whose parents were illiterate or did not speak English, were 499 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: not in the best of circumstances. But we're still making 500 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: a good home for their child, and their child was abducted, 501 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: kidnapped from them. Some kids were born out of wedlock, 502 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: which was a very big deal. Back then there was 503 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: not always the right focus on paperwork. So you could 504 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: argue as well that some of these kids ended up 505 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: what we would call stateless. They didn't have ideas, they 506 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: didn't have any you know, anything like a birth certificate, 507 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: et cetera. 508 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 3: I mean, today, so many of these social programs are 509 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 3: woefully behind in terms of their ability to like digitize 510 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 3: records and to have you know, some sort of network, 511 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 3: you know, where these things are actually very effectively stored 512 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 3: and communicated. And it's just we know that there's just 513 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 3: a lack of social service workers, you know, because it's 514 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 3: a low paying job and you have to just really 515 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 3: be passionate about it. Can you imagine, guys, like what 516 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 3: it would have been like back in these days where 517 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 3: it was all on paper. I talk about losing the 518 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 3: paper work or things falling through the cracks when you 519 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 3: didn't have enough people feeling it out in the first place, 520 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 3: or barely even any of these programs to speak of, 521 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 3: you know. So I still do stand by this was 522 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 3: an effort to try to create some infrastructure to do 523 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 3: some good. But within that because of the lack of 524 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 3: oversight by actual government, you know, entities that. 525 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 2: Still struggle to keep an eye on this stuff. Today, 526 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 2: bad things happened and. 527 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 4: To jump in to double down on what you said, Noel, 528 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 4: and bring back a Tammany hall. The people filling whatever 529 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 4: jobs like that. There were definitely like you know, favoritism 530 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 4: jobs like it was your guy, it was it was 531 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 4: your cousin who showed up once a month and got 532 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 4: paid for all the time. So it was it was 533 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 4: a terrible time to greet your points. It's like, this 534 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 4: is at least doing something. 535 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, but working within a system that is broken will 536 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: inevitably emulate some of the flaws of that system. It's 537 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: the same issue you run into with artificial intelligence quote 538 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: unquote today. In some cases, these children were being used 539 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: as straight up slaves. In some cases they were being 540 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 1: abused by bad faith actors who picked them up at 541 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: the auction. Another criticism is that there was no follow up. 542 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: There was no organized system to check in on the kids, 543 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: you know, a month or six months or a year later, 544 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: to see how they were doing. Also, there was a 545 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: big religious Not for nothing was I making that Catholic joke. 546 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: There was a big religious concern about the idea they 547 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: would take a kid from their birth family and put 548 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: them with a foster family that forced a different religion 549 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: upon them. And people investigated these claims. Again, can't say 550 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: enough about Orphan Traindepot dot org. We're getting a lot 551 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: of this information from People started to nose around and 552 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: look into this. In particular, in eighteen eighty four, there 553 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: was a childcare activist named Hastings Hornell Hart who looked 554 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: into the results of orphan training placements in Minnesota specifically, 555 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: and he said, you know what, most of the placements 556 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: ended up well, they ended up working. This brace's wild 557 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: idea is a good thing. However, there were cases that 558 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: ended badly, and when abuse occurred and the CIS found 559 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: out about it, they did something. 560 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 5: But he said. 561 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: The primary issue was actually the end receivers, the local 562 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: committees that were running this from the train depot. Sometimes 563 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: they would be afraid to turn down applications because they 564 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: live in small towns and they didn't want to make enemies, 565 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: you know, and maybe like the deputy is a real pill, 566 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: a real pos but has a lot of pool in town, 567 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:04,479 Speaker 1: so you don't want to make the deputy angry. 568 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 3: Guys, we still today hear so many horror stories about 569 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 3: kids falling into abusive situations through the foster care system 570 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 3: that is, you know, overseen and you know, organized by 571 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 3: the government again because of understaffing, because of there's just 572 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 3: not enough case workers to properly vet this stuff and 573 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 3: to properly you know, check in. And you know, I 574 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 3: haven't heard stories as this heartbreaking of recent years, maybe 575 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 3: in the last ten years, but I remember in the 576 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 3: nineties there were cases of foster kids getting beaten to death, you. 577 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,320 Speaker 2: Know, like in the in the nineties. 578 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,879 Speaker 3: And again I'm not saying that hasn't happened, since I'm 579 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 3: sure it has. I just remember a few I can't 580 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 3: quite recall the exact details. But when I was in college, 581 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 3: and like I believe it was like a sociology class, 582 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 3: we studied some cases where foster children were you know, 583 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 3: there there was abuse that was noted and practically ignored. 584 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 3: So I think this program is well ahead of its time. 585 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 3: And I think this investigation by the person you're talking about, 586 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 3: Ben Hastings hornell Hart indicated as much that this ultimately, 587 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 3: you know, for a program of this size and scale, 588 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 3: was doing good work. 589 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, and let's not forget that many of those children 590 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: who were shipped off, they would have had very hard, brutal, 591 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,240 Speaker 1: and short lives. I've had experience with some of this stuff, 592 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: so I don't know about you guys probably take it 593 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: at an intensely personal level. We also know we have 594 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 1: to be careful not to romanticize this. That's one of 595 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: the big takeaways from this episode, because there have been 596 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 1: all these books written talking about how successful the orphan 597 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: trained placements were. There have been these documentaries lauding this 598 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: American idea, even though brace got it from an earlier 599 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,439 Speaker 1: German program. There's a lot of orphan trained nostalgia out there. 600 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,720 Speaker 1: To be frank and I would say, the Box Car Kids, it's. 601 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 5: Literally just googled, Ben, I've got it. 602 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 2: Are you looking at my screen? Wow? 603 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 3: I literally The Box Card Children, the series of Young Adults. 604 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 3: I guess it was, you know, very popular when we 605 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 3: were kids. You know, it was the kind of thing 606 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 3: you find in your local library shelf or in your 607 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,919 Speaker 3: English classroom. Right, it wasn't this was more it wasn't 608 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,320 Speaker 3: it more about like kind of trained kids. 609 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 1: It wasn't this program specifically, No, no, I think it. 610 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: I think it is thematically descended from it. But if 611 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 1: I recall The Box Card Children, they're like solving mysteries. 612 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, each book was sort of a Monster of 613 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 3: the Week book or like, yeah, the. 614 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 2: Very Hardy Boys Nancy Drew kind of vibes. 615 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: The Boxcar Children idea is perhaps a symptom of this romanticization, 616 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:02,800 Speaker 1: because you'll see these kind of manipulative before and after pictures, 617 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,399 Speaker 1: the way you might see memes of dogs getting adopted, right, 618 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: or discover it's like before, here's this desperate kid selling 619 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: loose matches or cigarettes one at a time on some 620 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: brutal street corner in New York. And now here they 621 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 1: are in brand new coveralls, right, happy their own course, shraps. 622 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 2: Right. 623 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,240 Speaker 3: There's a really cool New Yorker article I just found 624 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 3: that I want to dig into, called The Box Car 625 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 3: Children and the Spirit of Capitalism. And just a quick 626 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,720 Speaker 3: quote from it, it says, the nineteen twenty four narrator allows 627 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 3: the children some interiority and a few memories along with 628 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,240 Speaker 3: that upsetting backstory. The nineteen forty two version does away 629 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 3: with all of this orphaned and alone, say for each other. 630 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 3: The kids seldom discuss their parents or their past. So 631 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 3: there's two kind of versions of this story, And the 632 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 3: original one was that kind of romanticization, and then the 633 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 3: forties one, I think was a little bit more of 634 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 3: the kind of downtrodden, sort of like darker version. 635 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 2: I think, I think I'm getting there. 636 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: I feel you, yeah, because there is that dichotomy. Orphan 637 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: trains ran during a period of American history when so 638 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 1: many see changes occurred, like a lot of stuff happened 639 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: between the eighteen forties and the nineteen twenties right or 640 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties. So it gets associated, maybe in the 641 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: modern zeitgeist with somehow causing changes in laws about children 642 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 1: and child labor and the foster care system, but it 643 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 1: doesn't the literature doesn't support that. What seems to be 644 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 1: the case is that the orphan training movement and this 645 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,720 Speaker 1: auctioning of children, it wasn't the driving force for modern 646 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: adoption laws. Instead, a lot of those reforms to things 647 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: like foster care practice, child welfare, child labor it came 648 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:02,399 Speaker 1: about in a way to specifically oppose orphan train practices. 649 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: One of the things we have to leave you with here, folks, 650 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 1: is that it is entirely possible, depending on where you 651 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: are from, that this may affect your own ancestry because 652 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: think about this. You know, a kid gets auctioned off 653 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: when they're seven years old, they get raised in a 654 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: good family in insert here in Michigan, and then they 655 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: go a kids you know, in their neck of the woods, 656 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 1: and that kid has a kid, and that kid is you. 657 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: And you may not really know the entirety of your 658 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 1: personal truth and your providence, so you can go to 659 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: fantastic resources like the National Orphan Train Complex out in Concordia, 660 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: Kansas to learn more. It's just nuts, man. The US 661 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: really did ship and in some cases of duct children 662 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,280 Speaker 1: by rail, and they did it because it was better 663 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: than the current situation. That's the kicker to me, Man, 664 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 1: I can understand evil, but well intentioned, imperfect stuff is 665 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: so much more complicated one. 666 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 3: And and again, Ben, I want to just thank you 667 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 3: for the thought that you put into, you know, getting 668 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,319 Speaker 3: these resources together, and sort of I do think we've 669 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,359 Speaker 3: you and and all of us have done a good 670 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,320 Speaker 3: job of sort of balancing between the intention. 671 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 2: And the ultimate outcome. 672 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 3: And you know, all the things in between without being 673 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,839 Speaker 3: a little too doom and gloom about it, but also 674 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 3: without romanticizing or sort of like painting too rosy a picture, 675 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 3: because there was good, there was bad, and there was 676 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 3: a lot in between. But I would argue that that 677 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 3: that investigation does seem to indicate that this was largely 678 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 3: a success. 679 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 5: Overall good, right I think, I think so. 680 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 3: I don't know, let us know what you think, ridiculous historians, 681 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,319 Speaker 3: if anyone has any more background with this or has 682 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 3: you know, done deeper research into this. This very interesting 683 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 3: period because you know, we take for granted the social 684 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 3: services that we do have that are all still very 685 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 3: grossly underfunded and understaffed, but at least they exist. This 686 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:11,840 Speaker 3: was a time where none of that stuff was even around, 687 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 3: and somebody had to just take the reins and figure 688 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 3: out some creative solution, which oftentimes required a need to 689 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 3: be filled. Otherwise there's not going to be any money, 690 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 3: it's not going to be any interest in it. So 691 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 3: while this idea of staffing farms with these children that 692 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 3: have been neglected does on the surface feel a little 693 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,839 Speaker 3: potentially problematic, I think it's a little less problematic than 694 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 3: leaving them to their own devices. In the cruel, brutal 695 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 3: streets of New York City of the time, which would 696 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 3: have been unrecognizable. You know, as much as New York 697 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 3: still has a unhoused problem today, you don't really see 698 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 3: children wandering around, you know, on their own without any 699 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 3: supervision or opportunity. 700 00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: And we say that as fans New York do check 701 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,400 Speaker 1: out the Tenement Museum. Thanks for tuning in Ridiculous Historians. 702 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,280 Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super producer mister Max Williams. 703 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,919 Speaker 1: Alex Williams, thank you as well. He's the guy who 704 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 1: composed this track. Big, big thanks to our own little 705 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 1: orphan Annie, Jonathan Strickland ak the Quist. 706 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 3: And our own Daddy Warbucks A J. Bahamas Jacobs. I 707 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 3: guess although I don't know, Jonathan's a little more what's 708 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 3: the word here suited their lack thereof to be Daddy Warbucks. 709 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 2: I don't know. You let us know what you think. 710 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,840 Speaker 1: Thanks as well to Christopher Osiotis, he's Jeffcoat here in spirit. 711 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,400 Speaker 1: Thanks for our pals Aaron and Elizabeth over at Ridiculous 712 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,520 Speaker 1: Crime and mister Brown, Thanks to you. 713 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 3: To you as well, Ben, Thanks for again on the 714 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,800 Speaker 3: excellent work on this research. 715 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 2: Breath We'll see you next time, folks. 716 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 717 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.