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Speaker 1: Welcome to two percent. I'm your host, Michael Easter. Now

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Speaker 1: let me say something. It is one thing to get

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Speaker 1: fit and healthy when you're in your twenties you have

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Speaker 1: a low stressed job, you have no kids. But it

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Speaker 1: is a completely other thing when you are in your fifties,

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Speaker 1: you have kids and you have one of the most

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Speaker 1: high profile and demanding jobs in the world. But it

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Speaker 1: turns out today's guest was able to do just that.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be talking to Brian Koppleman. Brian is

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Speaker 1: probably best known for his work in the film industry.

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Speaker 1: So he wrote the movie Rounders. He also wrote Oceans thirteen,

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Speaker 1: and he also wrote the television show Billions, which ran

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Speaker 1: for seven seasons. But when he was in his fifties,

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Speaker 1: he had this moment on a tennis court in New

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Speaker 1: York changed everything, a really scary moment, and it kickstarted

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Speaker 1: him to make some really hard changes. He's completely fixed

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Speaker 1: his health. He's one of the strongest sixty year olds

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Speaker 1: I know. And I know this for a fact because

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Speaker 1: we recently met up in New York City. We went

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Speaker 1: to the gym, we trained, and this guy is fit

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Speaker 1: and I love him for it. So we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk to Brian about a lot of things about getting

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Speaker 1: fit in his fifties, about what he's learned in the

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Speaker 1: weight room. We're also going to talk to him about

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Speaker 1: creativity and writing, how to overcome writer's block, and why

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Speaker 1: talking to people that you don't know, that you may

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Speaker 1: not necessarily agree with can be a path to learn

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Speaker 1: more and think differently. Really, this is just a big

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Speaker 1: episode about how to live a better life from a

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Speaker 1: really insightful human being that I love. So with all

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Speaker 1: that said, we're going to bring in Brian right now. Well,

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Speaker 1: Brian my man, welcome to the show. I'm psyched we're

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Speaker 1: doing this.

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Speaker 2: I'm so happy to talk to you, man.

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Speaker 3: I really am, and warmer than when you and I

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Speaker 3: took our walk in Manhattan a few months ago.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it is so. You just turned sixty on Monday,

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Speaker 1: and in honor of that, you posted a video of

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Speaker 1: yourself with a heavy pack walking upstairs, which I absolutely

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Speaker 1: approve of. Now I feel like maybe five years ago

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Speaker 1: this is something you one wouldn't have done, two maybe

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Speaker 1: couldn't have done. Could you have done it, it would have

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Speaker 1: been a lot harder.

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Speaker 3: I would It's still hard, right, putting a really heavy

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Speaker 3: pack on it. Going up seven New York City flights

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Speaker 3: in a building is a challenging thing to do when

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Speaker 3: you weren't planning for it.

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Speaker 2: You didn't.

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Speaker 3: But I was just like, yeah, I can just basically

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Speaker 3: race up these stairs. And three years ago that would

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Speaker 3: have been if I had to do it, because it

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Speaker 3: was the only way to get to work. I would

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Speaker 3: have had to have worked myself up to it. I

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Speaker 3: definitely couldn't have taken the pack not on my back,

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Speaker 3: and it would have taken three or four or five

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Speaker 3: times as long, and I would have been worried about

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Speaker 3: my heart. And it didn't even think about it, right,

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Speaker 3: because I'm sixty, I didn't even think about it. Now,

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Speaker 3: I will say, not thinking about it might not have

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Speaker 3: been that great because as much as I lift weights

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Speaker 3: and exercise and throw kettlebells around, walking up all those

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Speaker 3: flights with a pack that's heavy and not built for

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Speaker 3: that purpose the next two days, my back was pretty

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Speaker 3: jacked up. Yeah, and because I'd already I mean, i'd

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Speaker 3: also done that. I right, I put a barbell on

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Speaker 3: my back after that, So it was a lot of

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Speaker 3: stuff in a row. But now we're three days past it,

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Speaker 3: and I feel great, and I did have the next

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Speaker 3: day it was like, oh, that was maybe dumb. But

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Speaker 3: as an exclamation point on the last few years, Michael,

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Speaker 3: and on the influence that comfort crisis had on me, which,

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Speaker 3: as you know, hit me, not the beginning of this

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Speaker 3: kind of move I made into trying to get myself

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Speaker 3: in much better physical condition. But I think anytime you're

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Speaker 3: on a long no one knows more about like long

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Speaker 3: missions than you do. But anytime you're on a long mission,

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Speaker 3: years long mission, maybe a mission that's like for the

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Speaker 3: rest of your life, you hope you need things, not

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Speaker 3: just at the beginning. You need things like stages of

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Speaker 3: a rocket. You need things to propel you into the

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Speaker 3: next part, the next phase. And because it's not just

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Speaker 3: like you have one takeoff and you're going.

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Speaker 2: It's like you take off, but then.

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Speaker 3: You know you run out of fuel, or you need

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Speaker 3: a different kind of fuel, or you need a different

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Speaker 3: kind of propulsion. And you know, comfort crisis was a

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Speaker 3: really huge thing and really did.

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Speaker 2: At the perfect time for me a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate that. Man. I want to get all

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Speaker 1: into your health transformation. But first, so you grew up

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Speaker 1: in Long.

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Speaker 3: Island, yeah, pretty much from age. I was born in Flushing,

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Speaker 3: Queen's but pretty much my whole life's memories were on

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Speaker 3: Long Island until I went to college, and then relatively

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Speaker 3: little Long Island time from college on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you go to Tufts and so as

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Speaker 1: I'm researching this episode as a heads up for you,

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Speaker 1: I knew your background. I didn't know all of your background,

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Speaker 1: so I'm doing something, I'm like, holy shit, that guy

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Speaker 1: did this. So a couple things popped up in that,

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Speaker 1: but one of one of them was that you discovered

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Speaker 1: Tracy Chapman.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's an incredible thing to have been part

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Speaker 3: of her rise and to have been a very early

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Speaker 3: voice advocating for her music and her artistic brilliance. It's

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Speaker 3: been written about a lot, and I've talked about it

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Speaker 3: a lot. I was nineteen years old when I first

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Speaker 3: saw Tracy play talking about a revolution, and.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like a coffee house in Boston, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, at the college that both of us went to.

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Speaker 3: She was two years ahead of me, and it was

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Speaker 3: kind of the defining thing in my life for a

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Speaker 3: long period of time.

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Speaker 2: It was my.

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Speaker 3: Entire focus of most of my sophomore junior senior. Most

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Speaker 3: of my sofmare of my junior and senior year and

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Speaker 3: led me into this first the first stage of my

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Speaker 3: career until David and I wrote our first script.

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Speaker 2: I would say the lessons that were the most.

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Speaker 3: Important lessons that I took from that, and these are

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Speaker 3: broadly applicable to anyone listening is I was young enough

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Speaker 3: not to believe experts when they told me that I

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Speaker 3: was wrong, that Tracy's music could appeal to any people

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Speaker 3: across many different demographics. And for me, I was at nineteen.

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Speaker 3: I had spent a lifetime in recording studios, even though

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Speaker 3: I was young, because my dad was in that business,

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Speaker 3: so I knew about that business. So I had a

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Speaker 3: certain amount of knowledge, a certain amount of reps thinking

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Speaker 3: about things like what makes somebody a great songwriter? You know,

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Speaker 3: what makes a song a great song? What makes an

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Speaker 3: entertainer incredibly compelling? But I was young and innocent enough

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Speaker 3: to not think that the monolith of an industry knew better,

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Speaker 3: because all I thought was, well, if this moves me

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Speaker 3: to tears and I'm not an easy cry, if this

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Speaker 3: makes me stay up all night lost in what this

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Speaker 3: music is, then other people are going to be like me,

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Speaker 3: and they're going to feel the same way, you know.

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Speaker 3: And then so I had all these experiences, Michael, where

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Speaker 3: I would Tracy would perform and an expert from a

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Speaker 3: New York record company or an LA record company would

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Speaker 3: come that we'd arrange to come up there, and the

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Speaker 3: guy would be crying during the concert and say can

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Speaker 3: I concert?

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Speaker 2: You know, she's playing for two hundred people, and say

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Speaker 2: can I meet her?

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Speaker 3: And then I'd walk the guy back to his car

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Speaker 3: and he would say, you understand, we can't sign her

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Speaker 3: to like a record deal.

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Speaker 2: Because even after all that, and I would.

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Speaker 3: Say, dude, your shirt's covered with the your snot in tears,

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Speaker 3: and you're just a person.

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Speaker 2: And like they go, oh, you don't know how it works.

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Speaker 3: You know, their promotion people have to go to radio

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Speaker 3: stations and you know she's demographically and I was like,

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Speaker 3: I don't even know that word means. I mean, I did,

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Speaker 3: I was, but like I.

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Speaker 2: Was like, did you not just hear those songs?

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Speaker 3: And then every step of the way I saw these

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Speaker 3: experts be wrong and enormously wrong, right wrong in a

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Speaker 3: way that thirty five years later or more, you know,

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Speaker 3: she that has another number one record again. She still

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Speaker 3: has millions and millions and millions and millions of listens.

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Speaker 2: A year, but it's her. You know.

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Speaker 3: This is the thing that story often when someone's talking

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Speaker 3: to me but becomes a story about me.

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Speaker 2: The story is about Tracy, you know. And it was

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Speaker 2: always about Tracy. For me.

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Speaker 3: It was that I was lucky enough to be in

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Speaker 3: a position to see her, and I was lucky enough

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Speaker 3: to have both enough experience and more importantly, enough innocence

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Speaker 3: that I jumped in fully and made it like my

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Speaker 3: life's work at that time. Yeah, I got to talk

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Speaker 3: to her after the Luke Combs grabbing thing. She spoke

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Speaker 3: for a half hour, and it was really beautiful because

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Speaker 3: we got to revisit those early days and just talk

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Speaker 3: about how miraculous and heartwarming it is that the music

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Speaker 3: still has this level of impact on people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so when you're at toss, you're also poker, Right.

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Speaker 2: I played poker. I've always played.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've played poker since I like I was since

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Speaker 3: eight years old.

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Speaker 1: The tone on that I played poker, that tells us

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Speaker 1: you played some poker, but where you play you would

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Speaker 1: play against Harvard kids, right, Well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's funny.

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Speaker 3: I just had had dinner with a guy who was

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Speaker 3: when I was at Harvard then, and I was talking

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Speaker 3: about going to Yeah, you know Harvard, like in that

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Speaker 3: social network, you know, they have those things like final clubs,

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Speaker 3: and I would go. I knew some kids who were there,

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Speaker 3: and I would go to like one of these final

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Speaker 3: clubs and play poker. And there's nothing better than taking

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Speaker 3: a Harvard guy's money at a poker table. I mean,

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Speaker 3: you just feel like you're doing the Lord's work even

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Speaker 3: though you're gambling.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and even if you don't believe in the Lord

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Speaker 2: all of it. But it was great.

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Speaker 3: And then, yeah, that moment Levine and I put that

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Speaker 3: moment in Rounders we made we made at Princeton because

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Speaker 3: he was in the a jail in New Jersey and

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Speaker 3: coming back to New York, so they wouldn't really divert

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Speaker 3: on their trip up to Boston. But Princeton and those

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Speaker 3: dining clubs the same thing are close enough. It felt

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Speaker 3: like the whole idea was just Ivy League douches.

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Speaker 1: Were you using almost the sense of being underrated as

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Speaker 1: an advantage? Did you play it? Did you play into that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I mean I mean a big difference between rounders and

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Speaker 3: what I did is there, I didn't even know how

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Speaker 3: to cheat, and I wouldn't have cheated them because for me,

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Speaker 3: it was really important as a guy who was at

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Speaker 3: Tufts and who had really bad ADHD, and it was

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Speaker 3: very important to me that I tried to match wits

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Speaker 3: against those guys and prove to myself that I could

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Speaker 3: come out ahead for real at the poker table. No,

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Speaker 3: the great thing about Harvard guys at a final club,

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Speaker 3: I mean, you don't have to do anything for them

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Speaker 3: to feel like they're better than you.

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Speaker 2: You just have to show up. They're always going to

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Speaker 2: think they're better than you.

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Speaker 3: So I just had to show up, and they were like,

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Speaker 3: first of all, I was from Long Island. That's a

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Speaker 3: giant strike against me. Yeah, I was at Tufts. That's

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Speaker 3: another strike against me. I would definitely wasn't dressed the

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Speaker 3: way that they were dressed. And yeah, I mean I

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Speaker 3: would play basketball and be in sweats and just come

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Speaker 3: in the same clothes or whatever.

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Speaker 1: That's awesome. What drew you to poker in the first place?

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Speaker 1: All the way back at eight years old?

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Speaker 2: Losing, I mean at eight was losing.

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Speaker 3: I was in a camp punk and a bunch of

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Speaker 3: guys knew how to play and I didn't.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and when you lose your whole like all.

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Speaker 3: Your canteen money, like the twenty bucks that's supposed to

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Speaker 3: buy you candy for the whole summer, and you lost

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Speaker 3: all that, You're like, that's never I'm not letting that

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Speaker 3: happen to me again. So I started like reading books

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Speaker 3: about poker, and my dad he'd liked to gamble some

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Speaker 3: and he had a poker said at home, like with

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Speaker 3: those plastic chips in like a wheel, and.

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Speaker 1: My gran's had one.

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Speaker 3: So I love that, and I like, I think I

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Speaker 3: came that summer, I learned how to play, and then

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Speaker 3: I decided I want to try to get decent at it.

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Speaker 3: I had a little too much gamble in me. Even

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Speaker 3: when I would play it toughs against some of those guys,

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Speaker 3: they would win.

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Speaker 1: But I.

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Speaker 2: Always found that game the combination of things, right. You

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Speaker 2: have to.

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Speaker 3: You have to be able to exhibit discipline, you know,

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Speaker 3: self discipline, and then you have to try to know.

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Speaker 3: I think like something that's incredibly valuable in life is

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Speaker 3: to know where you are in the hand, meaning like

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Speaker 3: where are you situationally right, It's situational awareness.

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Speaker 2: But it's more than that.

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Speaker 3: It's like being aware of the terrain, but also being

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Speaker 3: aware of if you have the proper footwear for that terrain.

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Speaker 3: And so for me, like I'm learning how to watch

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Speaker 3: everybody else because everyone we're all we all walk around

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Speaker 3: listen to our own voice all the time. By to poker,

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Speaker 3: you have to be outwardly directed enough to sort of

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Speaker 3: try to understand the patterns.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: People think think it's like greeting tells is just one thing,

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Speaker 3: like you know, oh, does somebody always touch their nose before?

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Speaker 3: But it's betting patterns, it's rhythms of speech, it's postures.

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Speaker 2: First making a.

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Speaker 3: Determination, does this person have an awareness I'm watching them closely,

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Speaker 3: and if they do, are they intentionally trying to use

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Speaker 3: that against me? If they're not, then they're going to

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Speaker 3: have exhibit their natural tension is going to come out

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Speaker 3: in some way. Okay, how's that going to come out?

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Speaker 3: Also if they are trying to influence me, that means something.

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Speaker 3: So instead of being self absorbed, you are forced to

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Speaker 3: be aware of these externalities and then you have to

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Speaker 3: filter them through your prism and you have to be disciplined.

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Speaker 3: It's really hard to stay disciplined when you've gotten unlucky.

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Speaker 3: And so for a long you know, I don't play

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Speaker 3: poker as much anymore. I got a lot of the

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Speaker 3: benefit out of it that I'm going to get out

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Speaker 3: of it. And you can't play poker on a Monday

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Speaker 3: and get to the gym at five am on a Tuesday,

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Speaker 3: I don't think. And so I've modulated it. But I

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Speaker 3: still play sometimes, and for a long time I played

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Speaker 3: once a week with a bunch of friends.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you end up writing Rounders. When did you

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Speaker 1: start working on it? That came out in ninety seven?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, David and I. I walked into a poker club

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Speaker 3: in New York December fifteenth, nineteen ninety five, ninety six. David,

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Speaker 3: I started writing it ninety seven. We sold it March third,

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven, and we went into production December fifteenth.

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Speaker 3: And I know because exactly two years to the day

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Speaker 3: of walking into the poker club. But I'll just say,

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Speaker 3: because I like the theme, Rounders was also rejected by everybody.

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Speaker 1: And what do you learn from that?

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Speaker 3: I mean, the same Listen, this is what the great

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Speaker 3: thing is, because the truth is, having the one lesson

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Speaker 3: is great. But when you have two. Like in many things,

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Speaker 3: I always I think in terms of I'm not incredibly

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Speaker 3: numerates like a math guy, but I do think that

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Speaker 3: one one instance of something is just like a point

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Speaker 3: on a graph, but when there are two, you can

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Speaker 3: plot it.

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Speaker 2: It's a line and it's a direction.

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Speaker 3: And so seeing this experience with Tracy and then with

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Speaker 3: Rounders where it was really rejected and the same people

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Speaker 3: who rejected it, these every agency, all the famous agencies,

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Speaker 3: rejected the script, and then the moment the script sold,

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Speaker 3: all those same agencies and all those same people agents

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Speaker 3: called trying to sign David and me off the script,

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Speaker 3: and I read them all what the bad shit they

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Speaker 3: said about the script was the first time ten you know,

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Speaker 3: they all denied it or I didn't really read it,

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Speaker 3: my assistant did, or my reader or another partner, And

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Speaker 3: it was like, oh, these people are engaged in a group,

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Speaker 3: think they are rarely.

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Speaker 2: Taking a risk.

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Speaker 3: They also haven't yet learned to be responsible for their

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Speaker 3: own decisions or to like most I think people like you, Michael,

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Speaker 3: And what I try to do is we're all wrong

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Speaker 3: a lot, like you're wrong all the time totally. But

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Speaker 3: what I try to do when I'm wrong is take

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Speaker 3: an inventory. Okay, what did I what patterns or habits

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Speaker 3: led me to that mistake? What can I change? What

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Speaker 3: can I learn from this? How can I not make this?

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Speaker 3: I'm going to make another mistake really soon. You know,

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Speaker 3: I'm someone who plays I always played sports. So it's

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Speaker 3: that thing you learn when you're young. Like a tennis

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Speaker 3: you know, if you hit a ball, if you hit

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Speaker 3: a servant of the net, you might hit a You

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Speaker 3: might like if I hit a second serve into a

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Speaker 3: net and double fault. If I'm going to double fault

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Speaker 3: the next time, I want it to because I hit

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Speaker 3: the ball long. I don't want to hit into the

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Speaker 3: net again. And it's that kind of thing where you

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Speaker 3: just want to sort of correct for the mistake you

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Speaker 3: can correct for.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. Something that's helped me too is even

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Speaker 1: asking in the moment when I have an idea or

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Speaker 1: a thought, where might I be wrong here? Like when

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Speaker 1: I'm writing a book and I've got a you know,

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Speaker 1: a complicated topic and I'm trying to make an argument. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I just sit there and go, what's the pushback? What

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Speaker 1: am I not seeing here? And I mean that's a

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Speaker 1: it is a harrowing thing to do in many ways,

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Speaker 1: because you're going you can find some areas, Oh well,

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Speaker 1: there could be this argument against us, there could be this,

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Speaker 1: there could be this. But then I always keep in

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Speaker 1: the back of my mind, which is somewhat anxiety inducing,

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Speaker 1: there's definitely other ways I might be wrong. But I

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Speaker 1: think that exercise also helps tighten arguments and the decisions

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Speaker 1: you end up making.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, how do you balance that with the the sort

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Speaker 3: of confidence needed to press ahead? Like, because I don't

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Speaker 3: you find when you're writing, I'm gonna wonder how do

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Speaker 3: you how do you how do you balance the need

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Speaker 3: to move forward with the need to be right?

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Speaker 1: I would say for me, I mean, because I'm writing

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Speaker 1: a lot about health, wellbeing, psychology, I can always find

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Speaker 1: a million cases where this could be wrong. But what

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Speaker 1: I try and zoom out on because I'm writing to

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Speaker 1: the public, I go, does this seem reason and defensible

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Speaker 1: for most people most of the time? And if I

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Speaker 1: can say yes to that, I go okay, Because there's

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Speaker 1: always going to be some person goes, well, I'm the

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Speaker 1: special case. I'm the one percent of the one hundred people.

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Speaker 1: But if I go okay, well, that's good. You're special,

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Speaker 1: but like your ninety nine friends probably fall into this bucket.

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Speaker 1: So I feel confident saying.

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Speaker 3: That, well, yeah, you have an awareness, and I do

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Speaker 3: think in the world that you are living and engaged with,

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Speaker 3: there's a people default to tribalism and kind of a

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Speaker 3: Manichean view even on things like the Turkish get Up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the amount of arguments online about this exercise

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Speaker 1: that only a handful of strength orcs like you and

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Speaker 1: I even do is amazing.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, and when you see people go this is

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Speaker 3: the most overrated thing in the world, and then someone

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Speaker 3: else will go, there's no exercise more important than the

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Speaker 3: Turkish get up. And you want to think they're both

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Speaker 3: good faith actors, and so how do two good faith

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Speaker 3: actors get So what if the answer is just there,

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Speaker 3: I see, there's some benefits to the Turkish get up,

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Speaker 3: it might be good to add something else into like,

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Speaker 3: you know, also, if you're putting something heavy in your

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Speaker 3: hand and you're trying to stand up anyway, there's benefit.

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Speaker 3: But if you're looking to you know, build boulder shoulders,

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00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,679
Speaker 3: there might be something better. But it seems like in

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Speaker 3: that space, in that space everybody should always just say

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Speaker 3: look if you're doing something hard, it's physically hard and taxing,

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Speaker 3: and you're trying to improve it, it's a good now

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Speaker 3: within that we can iterate a little bit and make

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Speaker 3: it slightly more effective. But I guess that doesn't sell

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Speaker 3: enough books.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Well, there's also the question of I try and look

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Speaker 1: at who is making the point for and against. Right,

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Speaker 1: if I talk to, you know, a Russian kettlebell trainer,

401
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,360
Speaker 1: they're going to say, to kettle belt, the Turkish get

402
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,280
Speaker 1: up with the kettlebell is the greatest thing ever. But

403
00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 1: then you're going to have some guys screaming no, it's

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00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 1: completely useless. You look at their background and they're you know,

405
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 1: they're a run coach or something. So it goes Okay, Well,

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Speaker 1: if I'm a runner, maybe I should listen to this guy.

407
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,040
Speaker 1: But if I'm interested in kettle bull work getting stronger,

408
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,680
Speaker 1: I should probably listen to this rushing kettlebell guy who's

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Speaker 1: putting a you know, a kettlebell the size of a

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Speaker 1: Volvo over there.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I actually think, yeah, I've been. I've been because

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Speaker 3: of the world we're in. I've been reading a lot

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Speaker 3: about tribalism, and I just did a really deep dive

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Speaker 3: and we don't have to get lost in this. But

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Speaker 3: I know there's something you know about. But I did

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Speaker 3: a really deep dive on how in nineteen forty seven

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Speaker 3: the partition happened in India and Pakistan and about the

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Speaker 3: three way tribal war wars that happened, And honestly, it

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Speaker 3: gives you an insight into why over something like kettlebells,

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Speaker 3: because I've noticed these wars online about this, people just

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00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:57,159
Speaker 3: running other people down, cursing them out, like screaming online

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Speaker 3: and it's like, it seems it's very important. And I'm

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Speaker 3: curious how you because in what you write about it

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00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 3: is controversial, right. It seems like people in the fitness

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Speaker 3: wellness space spend a lot of time trying to tell

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Speaker 3: other people why they're wrong instead of trying to just

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Speaker 3: find the best answer for them for themselves and sharing

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Speaker 3: it with a positive spin.

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Speaker 2: I mean, have you have you thought about that at all?

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I do on my substack is

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Speaker 1: a lot of times I just say do more of

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Speaker 1: what helps you and less of what hurts you. You

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Speaker 1: can't argue with that. If you do the kettle if

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Speaker 1: you do the exercise, why and it helps you? Great,

435
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 1: do it more. If you feel like it's not as beneficial,

436
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 1: do it less. It can be that simple, because people

437
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,120
Speaker 1: are people are going to be different, right, They're people

438
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 1: who respond differently to different movements based on their anatomy,

439
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 1: based on their training, background, based on all these different things.

440
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 1: But you're coming about India Pakistan reminds me. One of

441
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 1: my best friends is named Matt Sherman. Also some guy

442
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 1: longest serving American in the Iraq and Afghanistan war. And

443
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 1: what happened with the war is, especially with administrations changing,

444
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 1: people coming in and out, the average person is staying

445
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,640
Speaker 1: over there for six months a year or something like that.

446
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 1: And he's like, people would have very strong opinions what

447
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 1: we have to do here. But he told me, the

448
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: longer I stayed there, the more I realized I have

449
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,680
Speaker 1: no clue what's going on. There's just so much background

450
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 1: and history that like, we just don't know. And I think,

451
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 1: I mean, his takeaway was it made me a lot more,

452
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 1: I guess, empathetic, but also willing to be like, we

453
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 1: don't really know.

454
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 3: One of the best things about being even this happening

455
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 3: when I turned fifty so ten years ago, I became

456
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 3: so much more comfortable saying I don't know, And I

457
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 3: say that as something I've said online, and I say,

458
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 3: it's like, there's so much that there's no good answer for,

459
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 3: so you just try your best within that to make

460
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 3: the micro good answers, good decisions.

461
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 2: Well, I'm thinking that, you know.

462
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 3: You and I went and we took a walk together

463
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 3: and went and worked out and we were doing we

464
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 3: were next to each other in squad cage, was doing

465
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 3: entirely different workouts, and now all we did was engaged

466
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 3: with curiosity.

467
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:20,959
Speaker 2: Why are you doing that?

468
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 1: Oh?

469
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 2: Cool? Are you doing that? That's interesting?

470
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 3: Like there was no there was not a moment in

471
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 3: real life where one of us was like, oh dude,

472
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 3: why you do it. I didn't say to you, why

473
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 3: are you do Inzurchers? That's so dumb you should do

474
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 3: And you didn't turn to me and go backsquat. You're

475
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 3: still doing backsquats and it's just like no, Like you

476
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 3: were happy that I was putting in hard work and

477
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 3: were standing ready to spot me if I needed help,

478
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 3: and the same with me to you, and it was like, uh,

479
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 3: that's the way in real life people who are engaged

480
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 3: and just trying to improve themselves and their friends are.

481
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 3: But somehow when it gets one ring beyond that in

482
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 3: the public sphere, it turns dark really quickly totally.

483
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: So then you end up doing Oceans thirteen. Did you

484
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: feel like the Steaks had raised entirely once you get

485
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 1: all those names on that list and what was that

486
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: like for you? Yeah?

487
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 3: I should say all of this is with my lifelong

488
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 3: best friend and creative partner, David Levine.

489
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 1: And you guys met when you were like fourteen.

490
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 3: Fourteen and fifteen. Yeah, and so we go through it

491
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 3: all together, all this stuff except Dave's at BRISLI introduced.

492
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 2: To black belt, and I'm.

493
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,360
Speaker 1: We know who if it comes down there.

494
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 3: That's always been the case, even before he had the

495
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 3: black belt. He was better than me in a fight,

496
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 3: but luckily we never fight, and I always had them

497
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 3: to get my back. We were so excited to be

498
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 3: able to work with Steven Soderberg on that script, and

499
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 3: the opportunity is what we wanted. I remember seeing Ocean's

500
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,959
Speaker 3: eleven and the theater with Amy and.

501
00:25:58,320 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 2: My wife, and.

502
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 3: Like, gosh, I wish I would have gotten a phone

503
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 3: call to get the chance to convince somebody that they

504
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 3: should let us write that script, David and me. And

505
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:11,719
Speaker 3: so when we got the call that we could get

506
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 3: in a room and pitch Steven and talk to him

507
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 3: about the movie and maybe get a chance to write it.

508
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 3: They're Ocean thirteen. That was the moment because I thought

509
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,360
Speaker 3: it was an incredible long shot. I could feel an

510
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 3: instinct that I'm going to the fear of putting in

511
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 3: a ton of work really thinking about that movie and

512
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 3: really thinking about how it sort of all the things

513
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 3: required to make an incredibly compelling case as to why

514
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 3: we should write it. It was an incredible amount of

515
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 3: really hard work and difficult thinking and watching a lot

516
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 3: of movie vis's references, reading a lot of non fiction

517
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 3: books way more than you would think, to understand the

518
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 3: way casinos work, to understand the history of cons like

519
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 3: con artists, not just in the movies but in real life.

520
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 3: And there was this instinct to go have a meeting

521
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 3: because we knew it was a long shot. I remember

522
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 3: walking out the door to go meet with Steven and

523
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 3: my son saying to me, what do you think that

524
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 3: he was very always, very interested in stuff, and he

525
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 3: was like eleven or twelve or thirty, said, what do

526
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 3: you think the chances are and I said, honestly, the

527
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,719
Speaker 3: five percent. But I and I think I've I've spoken

528
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 3: to groups of like salespeople, tech, you know, and often

529
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 3: before a meeting where the upside is potentially so huge

530
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:47,360
Speaker 3: but it's a long shot. That's when sometimes we don't

531
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 3: really do the work because we're so scared of of

532
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 3: being disappointed.

533
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 2: And heartbroken totally.

534
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 3: But somehow David and I did it all the work,

535
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 3: and I had so much at stake in the meeting

536
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 3: with Steve and he was delightful and the fact that

537
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 3: we were that prepared was immediately apparent because we weren't

538
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 3: pressing or weren't pushing, but like we just had this

539
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 3: domain expertise and he knew our work, so there was that.

540
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 3: And by the end of that meeting he shook our

541
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 3: hands and was like, all right, we're doing this together.

542
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 3: And then yeah, of course we were aware that, like

543
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 3: with everybody else wanting to do it, if the thing

544
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 3: didn't happen, we would have gotten blamed for it, but

545
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 3: we you can't think about that, and we didn't. I'll say,

546
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 3: it was like you're aware of it. There's a difference

547
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 3: being being aware of something being aware of the downsides

548
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 3: and focusing on the downside, like I've heard Alex Haneld

549
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 3: talk about it too, meaning he's aware of the fact

550
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 3: that it'd be bad to fall, but he's not thinking

551
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 3: about that when he's on the mountain right, he's thinking

552
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 3: about going carefully and smartly and using all his expertise

553
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 3: and abilities.

554
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: It's thinking about climbing up. And so no, I wasn't.

555
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 3: I'll say like that, all the fear was all the fear,

556
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 3: as it always is, was about the emotions I'd feel

557
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 3: and failure. But at an earlier stage it was about

558
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 3: the fear of not getting the opportunity. But once we

559
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 3: got the opportunity, there was no fear.

560
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 2: It was just like you had to just keep it.

561
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: You had to keep going. You know.

562
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 3: There were many stops along the way where it could

563
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 3: have fallen apart, but we just kept pressing forward. Okay,

564
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 3: someone has notes, they want to change it rat wildly.

565
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 3: Let's get in there and do it. I was never

566
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 3: not aware of what a big opportunity it was. And

567
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 3: I'll say one thing that I think we all do

568
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 3: often is when something good happens, or when something when

569
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 3: you're in the middle.

570
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 2: Of something momentous.

571
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 3: Often we keep blinders on and we just kind of

572
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 3: move forward because we've trained ourselves that again, that kind

573
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 3: of an awareness something can come with a bunch of emotions.

574
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,959
Speaker 3: But when Dave and I walked onto the Warner Brothers

575
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 3: lot the first day that we were all shooting the movie,

576
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 3: we did make it a point. And maybe this is

577
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 3: one of the blessings of having a creative partner, not

578
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 3: going through all of it alone, but we made it

579
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 3: a point to take a breath and say, Okay, we

580
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 3: may never be a part of something like this. Again,

581
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 3: Hollywood may never do something like they're building this giant

582
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 3: casino over there.

583
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 2: George Clooney is.

584
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 3: Over there, and Brad Pitt's over there, and Matt Damon's

585
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 3: right there, and like, we did have an awareness in

586
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 3: a good way that this was very fortunate thing and

587
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 3: that if we're engaged in all this, there should be

588
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 3: some moments that we breathe it in and accept it

589
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 3: that this is really good and this is fun, and then.

590
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 2: Do the work.

591
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 3: Then forget that, do the work, but have a moment

592
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 3: of grabbing onto it. Because of the time I don't,

593
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 3: and I afterwards I regretted if I didn't, so I've

594
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 3: trained myself to do it.

595
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: You know, do you think writer's block or creativity blocks

596
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: are real? I want to hear your opinion. I'll give

597
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: you mine.

598
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 2: Well, you got to define real, dude, I'll.

599
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: Let you define it. Do that happen? Or is is

600
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: what is missing when that happens? I guess is the question?

601
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,479
Speaker 3: Well, my origin story with the writing thing is I

602
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 3: was a blocked writer and it was so painful for me.

603
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 3: It was our first child was born. I had a

604
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 3: good job, but I was sitting in my office with

605
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 3: a stack of demo tapes to listen to. I'd never

606
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 3: smoked cigarette in my life. I was twenty nine, I'd

607
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 3: started smoking cigarettes. I was eating a double cheese burger.

608
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 3: I didn't want to listen to these tapes, and it

609
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 3: was a real moment of crisis. I had this thought

610
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 3: that if I was letting this creative impulse in me die,

611
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 3: and like any other death, it would have toxicity, and

612
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 3: then that the city would ooze out of me onto

613
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 3: the people I loved, and I'd be a bad dad

614
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 3: if I let myself get bitter, not a bad dad.

615
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 3: If I let myself get better and let this sort

616
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 3: of creative impulse.

617
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 2: Die.

618
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 3: I felt like I just wouldn't be as good a

619
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 3: father as I could be or a husband. I felt

620
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 3: like that bitterness would find a way to fucking ooze around,

621
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 3: you know, and.

622
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: But I couldn't. I was the kind of not the

623
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 2: kind of person.

624
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 3: I was a person who could write a paragraph or

625
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 3: two or a page that I knew could affect people,

626
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 3: Like I knew I had the word talent is a

627
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 3: weird word, but I knew I had an ability a

628
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 3: skill that with words on a page that was fairly rare.

629
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 3: But I couldn't write more than a page I would

630
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 3: turn never. I had seven incompletes my last semester of

631
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 3: my senior year of college, and I got them done

632
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 3: through the help of friends, you know who, Like one

633
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 3: guy had a first word processor se he's like, I'll

634
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 3: type for you, And another guy made to coffee like

635
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 3: we were just like everybody had a sort of set

636
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 3: up an environment because no one knew what the ADHD

637
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 3: was and there was no scaffolding, there was no sort

638
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 3: of like. I had to invent it for myself. My

639
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 3: friends had to help me invent the scaffolding that said

640
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 3: I started doing David Levine gave me The Artist's Way.

641
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 3: I'd read Tony Robbins Awaken the Giant Within, which helped

642
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 3: me get to this crescendo inside where I realized, Okay,

643
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 3: I have to make a change, but I still didn't

644
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 3: know how. And then Dave gave me Julia Cameron's book

645
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 3: The Artist's Way. And when I started actually doing that program,

646
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 3: really doing a chapter by chapter, really writing the morning pages,

647
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 3: really going and doing the artist date, something broke free

648
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 3: and it enabled me to finally get past this thing

649
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 3: that was holding me back. But it does happen, I think,

650
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 3: and I think the Artists Way works for lots of people,

651
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 3: but something else will work for people. You know. Steve

652
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 3: presfield book War of Art is so great because he

653
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 3: diagnoses resistance, which is his word for this thing that

654
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 3: might kind of manifest as a creative block or a

655
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 3: writer's block. I do think people are in pain, but

656
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 3: it's like asking me if back pain exists or if

657
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 3: slip discs cause back pain. And I think that John

658
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 3: Sarno is mostly right that two percent of the time

659
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 3: it's a real it's a real structural thing, and almost

660
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 3: all the time what it actually is, I'm not talking

661
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 3: about a cute like there is a cute back pain,

662
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 3: Like you know, you throw a rock on your back

663
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 3: and walk up a bunch of flights of stairs, you're

664
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 3: gonna have a couple of days of pain. But in

665
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 3: a prior version of my life that back pain, I

666
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 3: wouldn't have gone a deadlifted a day later, and I

667
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 3: wouldn't be thrown kettlebells around two days later. I would

668
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 3: have said, oh, my back is hurt, and I would

669
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 3: have stayed in bed and I would have taken I

670
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 3: would ask the doctor for cortisone, you know, And and

671
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 3: now I am in a different mode and I think

672
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 3: it's the so so. But but the thing Sarno says

673
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 3: that's really important is the pain is real. Yeah, Like

674
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 3: the pain is legitimate and real. So the pain you

675
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 3: feel when you're a blocked writer, a blocked artist is

676
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 3: a very real pain. And it does seem as bleak

677
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 3: as depression. But I do think that there is a

678
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 3: strategy for you if you're listening to this, And it

679
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 3: might not be the strategy that works for Michael Easter

680
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 3: or for me, or for Seth Godin, but there is

681
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 3: a strategy that will work for you and you can

682
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 3: find it and get to the other side.

683
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 1: What do you think, I think you're I think you're

684
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: totally right there. I think for and I'll give you

685
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 1: my own experience. I've treated the feelings of feeling blocked

686
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, as a signal. So

687
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 1: for me, as a writer of nonfiction that usually has

688
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: narrative across it, if I'm really struggling and I've put

689
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: my butt in the chair, I'm there, I'm doing that work.

690
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: It tells me I need to get out in the

691
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: world and probably do more reporting. I just don't have

692
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: enough material. I'm trying to I'm trying to build a

693
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: McMansion with you know, twenty seven sticks. We're gonna need

694
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 1: more wood here, dude. So it to me it's like,

695
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: all right, do more research. Maybe you've got to go

696
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 1: to that place you're writing about to try and find

697
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: some characters and things like that. So I long story

698
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,240
Speaker 1: short as, I treated it as a signal, but something's

699
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: missing that I need to go out and find.

700
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 2: Well in nonfiction.

701
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 3: In fiction, you know, writing TV or movies or stories,

702
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 3: maybe that has to do with point of view.

703
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's same information too. Instead of having to

704
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 2: go outside.

705
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 3: Maybe it's having to go inside and do more work

706
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 3: on like what is it that I want to say here?

707
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 2: Why do I want to tell this story?

708
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 3: But also sometimes look, I think I might believe a

709
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 3: little more than you that some of this stuff is chemical,

710
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 3: because I am somebody who believes in medical interventions for ADHD.

711
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,919
Speaker 2: I think there are lots of other interventions. Right.

712
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 3: Sleep is super important, exercise is super important, meditation is

713
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 3: really important, journaling is really important. If you're doing all

714
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 3: those things and you're putting yourself in the seat and

715
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 3: you still can't do the work, talk to a doctor

716
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 3: and maybe for you, adderall works. Maybe for you, Concerto works.

717
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 2: Maybe for you. I don't know.

718
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 3: I am absolutely not an expert on what works for

719
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 3: somebody else. But I know for a lot of years

720
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 3: I felt anger and guilt around something like adderall.

721
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 2: I wouldn't take it. But if I do take it, there's.

722
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 3: A real chance that I'm better to be around, and

723
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 3: the work is better and I can do it more consistently,

724
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 3: and I've learned not to feel. Now you have to

725
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 3: make sure you're not someone who has an addictive personality,

726
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 3: Like I'll say, I've never taken a higher dose. I've

727
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 3: never you know, I have doctors telling me to take

728
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 3: more all the time, Like no, we knew this prescription.

729
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 3: Everybody's different. I've seen people crunch it up and snort it.

730
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 3: So it depends how manifests for you. I'm really careful

731
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 3: about endorsing it because for lots of people it's a

732
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 3: bad solution, but for lots of people it's a wonderful solution.

733
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 3: And I think our society is, yes, the society medicates

734
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 3: too much. But then the part of society I live

735
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 3: in mostly is like very critical of medical interventions and

736
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 3: views it as a moral weakness. And it has to

737
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,959
Speaker 3: do with like a kind of our Puritan streak and

738
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 3: being a get out of pain in a way that

739
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 3: what you're thinking about the weight. If you can get

740
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 3: yourself out of pain in a way that doesn't create

741
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 3: a worse pain like addiction or you know, doing things

742
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 3: that harm your life, do it, you know, as much

743
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 3: as I decry sort of the monolith of experts in general,

744
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 3: a specific expert who you've come to trust and learn about,

745
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 3: who can help you.

746
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:11,280
Speaker 2: That's a useful thing to find.

747
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: And I agree with you one. I think you made

748
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 1: two really great points. On one hand, I think sometimes

749
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 1: people don't look for other ways of dealing with something

750
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: beyond medication that becomes the frontline defense. Maybe that's helpful,

751
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 1: sometimes it's not. But I've also found a lot of

752
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 1: people where they have tried all these things and then

753
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: they had resistance to a medication they tried. I have

754
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 1: a family member who also has ADHD. When they went

755
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,919
Speaker 1: on medication, it changed their life fundamentally, Like I feel

756
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 1: like right new and so I think that we look

757
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: at things as very black and white, and there's different

758
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: case studies.

759
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 3: It's like this sort of how many people frame it

760
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 3: as a moral crisis, the GLP ones, you know, And

761
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 3: it's because again people view this stuff as all or

762
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:13,879
Speaker 3: one solutions, right, But if you're in a crisis and

763
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 3: a combination of GLP one and lifestyle modifications and resistance

764
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 3: training and conditioning will help you total if you can

765
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 3: get yourself out of a metabolic crisis, get yourself out

766
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 3: of a metabolic crisis, you know.

767
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: And it's too look where we are.

768
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 3: This is why the reason I started reading about historical

769
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 3: tribal conflicts is because I've noticed that in our society

770
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 3: right now, this sort of larger tribalistic impulse. This situation

771
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 3: really has filtered down. We're so used to now turtling

772
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 3: up and having our position and sort of deciding this

773
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 3: is what I believe on the big issues, that it's

774
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 3: come down on every other issue. Now we feel like

775
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 3: we have to argue as though it's the only possible answer.

776
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 3: And I was trying to understand why we're wired this way,

777
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 3: and so I started reading about a lot of different

778
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 3: tribal conflicts throughout his recent history, last hundred years, two

779
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 3: hundred years. And so that's why this bothers me so much.

780
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 3: In the world of wellness and fitness, now, there's a

781
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 3: lot of quacks, there's a lot of bullshit. There are

782
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 3: a lot of people who are bad faith actors. So

783
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 3: but let's take the bad faith. There's tons of bad

784
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 3: faith actors. You know, the people posting I'll just say

785
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 3: this their public service announcement. If you're on Instagram and

786
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 3: someone is showing you a dumbbell complex and they're saying this.

787
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:48,959
Speaker 2: Is a fat burner, it's not right. That's bad faith.

788
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:50,280
Speaker 2: They know it. They're appeeled.

789
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 3: They're at three percent body fat, and they didn't get

790
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 3: that way just by doing a dumbell complex you can't

791
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 3: spot reduce fat, or they say, you know, do this

792
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 3: and you'll lose belly fat. Just doesn't work, right, But

793
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 3: take the bad faith actors out of it. I think

794
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 3: a lot of good faith people are so used to

795
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 3: being in a posture where they have to be angry,

796
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 3: determined hold the line for their position in the world

797
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,879
Speaker 3: that they think that's the same exact thing about where

798
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 3: your hands should be in a fucking lat pulled down,

799
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 3: When the truth is, you're going to get a lot

800
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,479
Speaker 3: of benefit if your hands are wide on a lat

801
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 3: pulled down. If you lean back a little bit, you'll

802
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 3: get some benefit. If you don't lean back, you'll get

803
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 3: some benefit. Hell, if you supinate your hands, you get

804
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,720
Speaker 3: some benefit. And we're in a world now where nobody

805
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 3: can acknowledge.

806
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,320
Speaker 1: That, right, right, It's like you've you're a hut of

807
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: ninety nine point eight percent of people if you just

808
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 1: do the damn exercise in the first place.

809
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're going to get stronger.

810
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 1: How do you?

811
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 2: So?

812
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: You do this series on Instagram on your Instagram fade,

813
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 1: which everyone should follow. It's fantastic where the headline is

814
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 1: always screenwriter over here you talk about things you've heard

815
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: on the street. How does your environment influence your writing

816
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 1: and thinking?

817
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: Oh, it really does. I mean, I love those things.

818
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 3: They keep me sharp and also I just have always

819
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 3: I mean, it's part of why I became a storyteller. Right,

820
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 3: I'm fascinated by Sometimes I'll walk around with headphones because

821
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 3: I want to hear a podcast or I want to

822
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 3: listen to music. But I make it a point every

823
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 3: day for at least a good period of time when

824
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 3: I'm walking around, to be listening, really, to be listening

825
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 3: to my own voice. Mostly right, I'm just walking around thinking.

826
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to like overhear, but if you're in

827
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 3: your environment and you're alert, I'll just hear a sentence

828
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 3: or a tone of Often it's like I'll just hear

829
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 3: like a certain tone and somebody talking to their phone

830
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 3: or a friend, and I'll just slow down and listen.

831
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 2: But I can't, you know.

832
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 3: I'll listen and maybe I'll hear twenty things that could

833
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 3: be one of those. But I don't record it and

834
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 3: then post it unless I think it's like a really

835
00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 3: good one that people will be entertained by.

836
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 1: I don't.

837
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 3: Social media doesn't I don't make my living at all

838
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 3: through social media, So for me, it's just like fun

839
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 3: to share and have that community. And I like engaging,

840
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 3: but I want to try to I want to try

841
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 3: to apply rigor to it, like I just think as

842
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 3: a as a as a an approach, I always want

843
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,240
Speaker 3: to try to put a level of rigor. So yeah,

844
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 3: I often it's not the first time I try to

845
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 3: record that thing. Either, I'll record it, I don't get

846
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 3: it exactly right, I'll do it again. And those things

847
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 3: most things are hit and miss. Most things that you

848
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 3: post that I post too, But those things are like

849
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 3: they never missed because I've picked it out, I've curated it,

850
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 3: because I've heard a bunch of stuff, and it has

851
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 3: to really tickle me. I have to really think it's

852
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 3: funny or interesting. And then also sometimes they're too sad,

853
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 3: and I just can tell if that person or someone

854
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 3: in their life saw it, that would be bad. So

855
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 3: never a kid, you know, never someone like I. You know,

856
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 3: I'm I'm careful about it. But look, I think writers,

857
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 3: not all writers, right, but often writers are pretty informed

858
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:13,479
Speaker 3: by their surroundings. For me, it's always the way people spend,

859
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 3: the way people speak has been fascinating to me for

860
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 3: my entire life. Like I could do impressions from a

861
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 3: really young age, I could understand people's I could modulate

862
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 3: my own vocabulary to talk to somebody very quickly, understanding

863
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 3: the limits of their vocabulary. Really interested in word choice

864
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 3: as just a human way before I was a writer,

865
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 3: I was really interested in word choice. And so that's

866
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 3: the thing, Like, those are the things that are kind

867
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 3: of hallmarks in a way if someone wants to write.

868
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 3: And curiosity, Like I'm an incredibly curious person, right, I

869
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 3: spend so much time reading, listening, watching, just for me,

870
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 3: you know, just because that's what makes my brain feel good.

871
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 1: How did New York City and your interest in people

872
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: and their quirks influence billions?

873
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 3: Well, David and I both He lives in Grantwich and

874
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 3: I live in the city, and we both found ourselves surrounded.

875
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 2: By these.

876
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 3: By these people with a certain kind of power. And

877
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 3: then we watched the people around them react to them,

878
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 3: and we watched the outsized way when they were cutting

879
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 3: through water, the size of the wake and then the

880
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 3: clearance people gave that wake, and all that. I think

881
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 3: that we've always studied us and really found compelling people

882
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 3: who mythologize themselves and tell them the world who they

883
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 3: are in a certain way, and about the credulousness of

884
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 3: the world believing them. You know, but I'd say mostly, man,

885
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 3: it just starts with being curious, and it starts with

886
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 3: there's an insular world. We don't really know enough about it.

887
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 3: We see that it's like kind of got some influence,

888
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 3: it's got some kind of hole for some reason.

889
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 2: We want to know more. So it starts reportorial.

890
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 3: We like your thing, where we'll go in and well,

891
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 3: who do I know who can get me to be

892
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 3: able to visit a hedge fund?

893
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 2: Oh?

894
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 3: I know this guy went to college with this dude.

895
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 3: Hey can I come to Yeah, no one's ever come

896
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 3: to our morning meeting, I know, but you can come.

897
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:21,839
Speaker 3: I'll protect you and it'll never be you in the show.

898
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 3: Oh wow, they said this to each other. Shit, you

899
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 3: write that down, you go have an interview with somebody.

900
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 3: It's the same thing with you know, like everyone wants

901
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 3: talk about themselves, so it's pretty easy to find.

902
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 2: Your way in.

903
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 3: And then, like you know, you'll sort of understand the world,

904
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 3: start to understand the customs of the world, and then

905
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 3: sometimes it'll stop there.

906
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 2: I mean, it's like writing a song.

907
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 3: You get an idea for the beginnings of a chorus,

908
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:51,280
Speaker 3: but sometimes it catches fire and sometimes it doesn't. And

909
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 3: when it catches fire, then you got to go the

910
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 3: whole way. But like you know, and sometimes you go

911
00:47:55,440 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 3: down a deep like especially, I love learning about things

912
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 3: that are far away from my own experience.

913
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 2: So lately I've been.

914
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 3: Like, I read both of Cam Haynes's books, and I

915
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 3: watched a bunch of that stuff, and maybe that'll all

916
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 3: of that knowledge will end up just being like two

917
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 3: lines in an episode of my next show Awesome. But

918
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 3: it's worth it because those two lines will have the

919
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 3: quality of experience behind them. You won't know that watching it.

920
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 3: You'll just know that seems legit. Yeah, But the reason

921
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 3: I'll seem legit is like, I don't know, I spend

922
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 3: fifty hours to find those two lines, and so did Dave.

923
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 3: And then sometimes that'll turn into No, that'll be the

924
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 3: next eighty episodes I make will be all about the

925
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:46,400
Speaker 3: thing that I just studied.

926
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 2: I don't know.

927
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 3: I just follow my curiosity till the end of it.

928
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 3: And I love learning about people like you know, Cameron

929
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 3: Haynesess his belief system, his family life, his childhood experience.

930
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 3: It's how he spends this tiff. They're all so far

931
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 3: into me. It's like we're in a different species almost.

932
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 3: But you know what closes that gap is like actually

933
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 3: learning about somebody, is actually understanding the way they think.

934
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,359
Speaker 2: And then it's like no, no, no, no, we're completely the same.

935
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 3: Not only were the same species, but if we sat

936
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 3: next to each other without any flags or anybody talking

937
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 3: about politics, and we just ran into each other on

938
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 3: a trail, or we ran into each other somewhere and

939
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 3: I was in you know, I was caught up in

940
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 3: a bush and he needed to like, let you know,

941
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 3: let me out. Because he would do it, and I

942
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 3: would thank him and I'd go get him a bit.

943
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 3: It's like we'd be fine with each other. And that's

944
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 3: really what you end up. You know, my buddy Jocko,

945
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 3: who again we don't have all the same beliefs. And

946
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 3: Jocko early on said he's like, yeah, when I he

947
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 3: said this publicly online to someone about me, He's like, yeah,

948
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna sit with compliment and just talk about politics. Right,

949
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 3: I'm going to talk about led Zeppelin. I'm gonna talk

950
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 3: about led Zepplin and I'm gonna talk about weightlifting and

951
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 3: we're going to be great, And I'm going to talk

952
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 3: about Kevin kids and we're going to that's We're going.

953
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 2: To start there. And if we start there, then the

954
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 2: rest of it goes to the end.

955
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 3: If we started that other place, we'll never get to

956
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:05,280
Speaker 3: kids and led Zeppelin.

957
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:09,879
Speaker 1: Right, Totally, I learned. I've learned that in many ways

958
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,359
Speaker 1: in my own life. Like I had to did this hike,

959
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: and so I had to hitchhike last year around this time,

960
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 1: a bunch of hitchhiking. So you just end up in

961
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: these cars with people you don't know him, you don't

962
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 1: know who's pulling over. You get in and you kind

963
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,760
Speaker 1: of got to figure out, like, what is this person's vibe?

964
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 1: What are we going to talk about? First of all,

965
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: I didn't have a single bad interaction, because you can

966
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 1: always find something to connect about with something that's a second,

967
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 1: we had a kid, uh pull over and give us

968
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 1: a ride, and he was literally part of a polygamist group,

969
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 1: which some watchdogs would call a fundamentalist cult. So we're

970
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,959
Speaker 1: sitting there with this polygamis kid and it's like, yeah,

971
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: of course, I'm not gonna go, oh, so you're a polygamist.

972
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 1: Huh No, you talk about oh you ranch? Cool? What

973
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: are you kind of cattle?

974
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 2: You run?

975
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 1: What are you doing this? Then? Amazing kid. I learned

976
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: so much from him, and it's like, I would never

977
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:04,839
Speaker 1: find myself having an interesting conversation with that person had

978
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,400
Speaker 1: I not gotten out in the world and been willing

979
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: to engage at a level where I'm like, what can

980
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: I learn from this person? And I'm going to take

981
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: them at face value as a good human being.

982
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:18,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really interesting because what happens to us chemically

983
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 3: is you know, you tell me that, and I think

984
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 3: of well, fundamentalism is really bad in all its forms

985
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,879
Speaker 3: right now, I'm immediately right my reaction hearing about that,

986
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 3: not meeting the keep from Afar, It's like, well, can

987
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 3: you be a good person and be a fundamentalist polygamist?

988
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 3: I don't know, But you met the person, right and

989
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:40,280
Speaker 3: you engage with the person and you found common ground,

990
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 3: And there's a real value in that because actually you

991
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 3: understand the way someone thinks in that situation and you

992
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 3: can see the.

993
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,399
Speaker 2: Humanity in them. And the more we.

994
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,720
Speaker 3: Can see the humanity humanity in people whose belief systems

995
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 3: are wildly different from us, the more we can actually

996
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 3: find a language to talk about change, because the problem

997
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 3: is none of us can find the language right now

998
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 3: to talk about change, because we get so angry so quickly.

999
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: So Billions runs seven seasons, and one thing that I

1000
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: think was new and interesting, especially when it started with

1001
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:19,240
Speaker 1: just twenty sixteen, is a lot of the characters meditate,

1002
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,359
Speaker 1: and that come from your own experience, and what has

1003
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: that been, Like, what prompted you to meditate in the

1004
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 1: first place?

1005
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 2: I needed it?

1006
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 3: I mean, sometimes you're lucky enough that you just a

1007
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,879
Speaker 3: thought shows up and you just know it's true.

1008
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 2: It's like I got to start meditating.

1009
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: Where did you first hear about it?

1010
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I first heard about it so long ago,

1011
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 3: But I was pretty skeptical because I'm a science person

1012
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,760
Speaker 3: and I'm not a person of faith in a deity

1013
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 3: beyond us and all that stuff. And I think that

1014
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 3: often things like cults form around these ideas. I read

1015
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,399
Speaker 3: David Lynch's book Catching the Big Fish and the way

1016
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,959
Speaker 3: he talked about meditation, and I read some other people's books.

1017
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 3: I was always fascinated by Buddhism, but I don't practice

1018
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 3: Buddhist meditation, though I read a lot of I read

1019
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 3: a lot of.

1020
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 2: Books by Buddhists, but.

1021
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I was feeling like anxiety and tiredness

1022
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 3: and this is the world weariness. This long time ago

1023
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 3: now I don't know, fifteen or sixteen years ago, and

1024
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 3: a friend connected me with Bob Roth, who kind of

1025
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 3: is the person who runs the Transital Meditation organization. It

1026
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 3: runs David Lynch Foundation. And I met with Bob and

1027
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 3: I he said, to this day, I'm the most I

1028
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,839
Speaker 3: was the most skeptical not cynical, but skeptical person he's

1029
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 3: ever sat with about this. Where I talked about the

1030
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 3: history of the allegations about cultism, and I talked about

1031
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 3: I'm never going to give you guys money beyond like

1032
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 3: paying for a lesson. I'm not going to raise money

1033
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 3: for TM like and I said, so you got to

1034
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 3: and he's like, you know, I want to just tell you, like,

1035
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 3: let me do you want to learn?

1036
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 2: Do you want to learn about this?

1037
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 3: And he taught me to meditate and you know, it's

1038
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 3: an hour and then three subsequent hour long sets four

1039
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 3: hours total over four days, and.

1040
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 2: It just made my life better.

1041
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 1: So fast, does you have a moment where you realized

1042
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:21,240
Speaker 1: it was working.

1043
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 3: Very quickly, I realized there's some Look, most things have

1044
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 3: no benefits, so when something has some benefit, you're so happy.

1045
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 3: You can tell right away, even if the benefits he's

1046
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 3: Bob says, people are always worried what if I fall asleep?

1047
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 3: And he's like, during meditation, Oh, isn't that great? You

1048
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 3: didn't even know you were going to get arrest and

1049
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 3: now you got to rest. So like if that was

1050
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 3: all it was, was that it was a way to

1051
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 3: calm down and take mini nap.

1052
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 2: How great is that?

1053
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:45,560
Speaker 1: It's a win?

1054
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 3: So that but then, yeah, what I saw was and

1055
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 3: people always make crazy claims for all this stuff. Nobody's levitating.

1056
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 3: I just want to be clear about that. But I

1057
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 3: think the physical manifestations of anxiety just dimmed. I'd say

1058
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:06,720
Speaker 3: I had like a seventy five or eighty percent reduction

1059
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 3: in your stomach fluttering or intrusive thought, like just little things.

1060
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 2: But they add up.

1061
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 3: And so I just was like walked around feeling much

1062
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 3: less anxiety ridden and much less churning, and that meaning

1063
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:27,719
Speaker 3: doesn't disappear. You know, people often we want some miraculous cure,

1064
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 3: like you're a human. There are ecologically valid reasons to

1065
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 3: have some anxiety. It's it's useful, but the sort of

1066
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:43,319
Speaker 3: nonsense noise of it just really went way down. And

1067
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 3: for me, everyone's different from me. TM in particular is

1068
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:54,280
Speaker 3: very easy to do, and I look forward to it.

1069
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 3: It's not a drag. I know when I close my

1070
00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 3: eyes for twenty minutes, kind of in twenty minutes from now,

1071
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 3: I'm going to feel a little bit better.

1072
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,359
Speaker 2: You do that, then I do.

1073
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 3: I'd say I do it in the morning every single

1074
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 3: day of my life, and in the afternoon almost every

1075
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 3: day of my life. If I miss an afternoon, hey man,

1076
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,239
Speaker 3: I've been meditating for sixteen years. I'll just meditate when

1077
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 3: I wake up. But I but I am better for

1078
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:25,760
Speaker 3: it when I do, and I really want to every day.

1079
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 3: You know, no different than extius like honestly, they're all

1080
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 3: the same thing. It's all versions of the same thing.

1081
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 1: What prompted you to start exercising tell us? Like I

1082
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:37,800
Speaker 1: mean you mentioned when we started, was there a moment

1083
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 1: where you go, I got to do this.

1084
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 3: I'm not somebody who's good at making changes very long

1085
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 3: before the crisis point, but I am good at recognizing

1086
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 3: the crisis point, like, so.

1087
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: So what point.

1088
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 3: It's happened a bunch of times where I am able

1089
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 3: to recognize, Okay, I'm I'm at a place now where

1090
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:04,840
Speaker 3: I better make a change, and I'm once I genuinely

1091
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 3: do that. I'm good at making the change, but I'll

1092
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 3: put it off as long as I can, really, And

1093
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:15,720
Speaker 3: I won't give you the whole story because it's long,

1094
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 3: but I would say I for a long time, I

1095
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 3: always loved playing sports. I'm lucky that I'm a coordinated person,

1096
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 3: like I'm good at I'm good at the I'm good

1097
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 3: at some of the things in sports that are hard.

1098
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 3: I'm good at shooting a basketball, I'm good at hitting

1099
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 3: a tennis ball. I'm good at throwing a spiral and catching.

1100
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 3: But I was not ever good. I was always weak

1101
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 3: and slow. But I played you know, two varsity sports

1102
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 3: in high school. I wasn't the best guy on either team,

1103
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 3: but I was on the teams. You know, the teams

1104
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 3: were good and I was on them. So I've always

1105
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 3: played sports.

1106
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 2: But I was way, way, way, way way.

1107
00:57:53,640 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 3: Out of shape, man and over pandemic. I had just

1108
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 3: two months before that changed my diet and started eating

1109
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 3: better and started losing some weight. And when I was

1110
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 3: and then I a mile away from me during the pandemic,

1111
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 3: we were upstate New York. There was a tennis court.

1112
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 3: Our son was who's grown with but he was home

1113
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 3: with us. He plays tennis like exactly the level I do.

1114
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 3: And I had one friend who kind of was in

1115
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 3: our little bubble world who was a good tennis player.

1116
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 3: I played like every day, and I got good again

1117
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 3: at tennis and tennis. I know it sounds that I

1118
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 3: get a feet game. You know, it's fucking hard, and

1119
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 3: it's an incredible workout and at a good level if

1120
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 3: you're four to zer, but like it's at a good

1121
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 3: level at tennis.

1122
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 2: You're working very hard.

1123
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 3: So I got in better shape and I was like

1124
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 3: I was playing pretty competitively and then started shooting again

1125
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 3: after my show, after the they're gonna start gaining weight again,

1126
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 3: and I was still playing because I had gotten So

1127
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 3: I was playing in a tennis tournament. I'm six feet

1128
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 3: and I was about two thirty five but like forty

1129
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 3: percent body fat, and I was playing in ninety three

1130
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:06,040
Speaker 3: degree heat. I was fifty seven years old and I

1131
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 3: was playing against a twenty seven year old kid in

1132
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:10,920
Speaker 3: the first round of a tournament at a place outside

1133
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 3: of the city. And I won the first set pretty

1134
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 3: easily because I was better tennis player, but he was

1135
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 3: in much, much, much, much much better shape than I was,

1136
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 3: and he won the second set. And it was ninety

1137
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 3: three degrees and I was on two different blood pressure

1138
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 3: medicines because my blood pressure had gotten too high, and

1139
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 3: my doctor put me on two medicines because one wouldn't

1140
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 3: handle it. And I think the combination of those things

1141
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 3: made it. And the heat that I knew I was

1142
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 3: going to faint and I couldn't. And for the first

1143
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 3: time in my entire life ever at a sport, I quit.

1144
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:50,640
Speaker 3: I shook his hands and I conceded the tennis match.

1145
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 3: And before the third set, I always prided myself, like

1146
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 3: I'll play five.

1147
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 2: I don't care.

1148
00:59:55,720 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 3: And I literally was at an Amy had been inside came.

1149
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 3: I was in our car, so we were dropping back

1150
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 3: from upstate and on the way, I knew I had

1151
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 3: this first round of this thing. I was like, all

1152
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 3: play this tennis tournament. She was like, great, she's a writer.

1153
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 3: She was like, she likes to write in cars. Writers

1154
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 3: are all, as you know, we're all strange. We like

1155
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 3: to do things in different ways. She loves writing in

1156
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 3: a car, so she's like, great, I'll be But she

1157
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:19,080
Speaker 3: had looked up and she thought I was wobbly and

1158
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 3: it was too hot.

1159
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:21,800
Speaker 2: So she was walking up to the court right as.

1160
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 3: She saw me concede and she took me to get

1161
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:26,960
Speaker 3: an IV and she was like, this is really bad.

1162
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:29,640
Speaker 3: And I called the doc and I was like, you

1163
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 3: got to get me off these blood pressure medicines. Seems like, dude, no,

1164
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 3: you got to get yourself off the blood pressure medicines. Interesting,

1165
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 3: you got to get yourself in shape. You gotta this

1166
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 3: is time, this is the moment, and I went. So

1167
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 3: I went and saw the doctor and he's a great guy,

1168
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 3: but he his approach to diet didn't work for me.

1169
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 3: He's like a vegan, and I knew that wasn't for me.

1170
01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 3: I have lots of friends of her vegans. I know

1171
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 3: that's not going to work for me. But I found

1172
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 3: a doctor in the city and was trying to get

1173
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 3: me to go on GLP one's and I really didn't

1174
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 3: want to. Again, I felt like morally outraged that discipline

1175
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:09,800
Speaker 3: alone couldn't do it. And then this doctor said to me. Well,

1176
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 3: here's the thing. You can go on a low dose

1177
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 3: of a GLP one and it'll give you a kickstart

1178
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:19,200
Speaker 3: if you'll commit to weight training. If you commit to

1179
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 3: weight training, you will not get skinny fat. Your body

1180
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 3: fat will have a chance to change. You won't lose

1181
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 3: all this muscle you're afraid to lose and you're at

1182
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 3: this terrible amount of body fat.

1183
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 2: Now it's not healthy for you.

1184
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 3: You know, this is really affecting your quality of life

1185
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:41,919
Speaker 3: and your mortality. Outlook like this is terrible. Totally give

1186
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 3: this a shot. But you must commit to lifting weights

1187
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:47,840
Speaker 3: twice a week, resistance training. Because I always did cardioship

1188
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 3: I always I did, always do, and I would lie

1189
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 3: to them. I would base tell myself, well, look I'm

1190
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 3: getting on a bike for a half hour.

1191
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 2: My heart rate's going up. And she said she was great.

1192
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:59,200
Speaker 2: She was like, yeah, that's great. You got it. You

1193
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 2: must do his business training. Now here's the thing.

1194
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 3: I had a really and I'm telling this because I

1195
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 3: know that someone out there listening has had the experience.

1196
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 2: Because I was decent at sports.

1197
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,400
Speaker 3: Sometimes a gym teacher would like want to get me

1198
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 3: strong because they were like, well that guy could play

1199
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 3: like he'd be really good on certain teams if he

1200
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:20,919
Speaker 3: was strong, you know. And but a guy, this one

1201
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:23,520
Speaker 3: gym teacher put me on a universal gym and with

1202
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:26,040
Speaker 3: weights at twelve. But I have double jointed should I

1203
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 3: have shoulders that don't set up for that. And I

1204
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 3: was in terrible pain, which I didn't at the time

1205
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:33,600
Speaker 3: recognized there's the difference between joint pain and muscle pain.

1206
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 3: And I just hated weightlifting and I told myself I'd

1207
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 3: never lift, and it wasn't for me, and I just

1208
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 3: was in I was in very very bad joint pain,

1209
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:45,640
Speaker 3: like horrible joint pain. And so I was like, well, no,

1210
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 3: everyone gets different skills, right, I'm lucky. I know I

1211
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 3: can hit top spin and I can throw a spiral

1212
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:50,720
Speaker 3: and I can catch.

1213
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:51,160
Speaker 2: I'm good.

1214
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:54,200
Speaker 3: I don't care because there's benefits to like having my

1215
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:56,600
Speaker 3: arms work the way they do, so I can whip

1216
01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:58,880
Speaker 3: a ball like so it's really good.

1217
01:02:58,960 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 1: But it was.

1218
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 3: But somehow the way this doctor said it to me,

1219
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 3: I was like, all right, I'll try. And I found

1220
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 3: a guy named Ben Foster through my son, who I

1221
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 3: found a trainer, and I said, all right, I'll go

1222
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 3: to this trainer. Because someone had said, this guy's not

1223
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:21,520
Speaker 3: like the kind of people who tried.

1224
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 2: I'd done it a couple of times before.

1225
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:25,640
Speaker 3: This guy's not one of those people who wants to

1226
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 3: prove to you how bad you need to train by

1227
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:32,440
Speaker 3: making you so sore that you can't get out of

1228
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:35,040
Speaker 3: bed for a week. Instead, he went through like the

1229
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 3: functional movements with me, showed me what it's and if

1230
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:39,840
Speaker 3: a squad seemed too hard, he was like, dude, well

1231
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 3: squat in two months.

1232
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:42,040
Speaker 2: Don't worry about that. What can we do?

1233
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 3: Instead of focusing on you can't squat me throw it?

1234
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 3: He was like, no, okay, let's build up to that.

1235
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:47,600
Speaker 1: Here.

1236
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:49,400
Speaker 2: Do you know what a box squad is? Here?

1237
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:49,760
Speaker 1: Do you know?

1238
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:51,920
Speaker 3: Get sit in the chair and come up like it

1239
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:55,960
Speaker 3: was very reasonable and super smart about it, and Michael,

1240
01:03:55,960 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 3: it's that habit thing. I did it three weeks and

1241
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, and I have to say my part,

1242
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 3: Poor David Levine and my best friend for my whole life,

1243
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 3: had been telling me to wait train for thirty years

1244
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:14,040
Speaker 3: straight and I wouldn't listen. And then suddenly I'm the

1245
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:16,960
Speaker 3: biggest prosthetizer for it. But what happened was, you know,

1246
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 3: the low dose of GLP one started to take it

1247
01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:28,040
Speaker 3: started immediately changed my brain in that I understood that,

1248
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:29,640
Speaker 3: oh I wasn't a.

1249
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 2: Morally weak I actually.

1250
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 3: Had become obsessive about this for whether that's because of

1251
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 3: how whatever that caused it to begin with. Where I

1252
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 3: was when this intervention found me was I was never

1253
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 3: going to fix this completely on my own.

1254
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:53,440
Speaker 2: I immediately saw that the my brain was talking to

1255
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 2: me in a way.

1256
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:56,360
Speaker 3: I didn't realize that that's what the GLP. You know,

1257
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 3: I know, you know, you've studied it all the metabolic things.

1258
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 3: But the result of all that is that your brain

1259
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:07,960
Speaker 3: is giving you different messages right around food and around

1260
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 3: reward centers. And so that showed me progress in that area.

1261
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:15,960
Speaker 3: And then the first time I suddenly got a little

1262
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 3: bit stronger. I just felt different. And then because of

1263
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:24,320
Speaker 3: the error we're in now, and because Ben was not

1264
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:28,000
Speaker 3: only like a great teacher but also loved my curiosity.

1265
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:31,120
Speaker 3: And when I would like come in with hey, I

1266
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:33,680
Speaker 3: watched this video and I got this book that says this,

1267
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,640
Speaker 3: he was like, oh, yeah, I used to do that,

1268
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 3: let me tell you. And we would talk about it

1269
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 3: and put training programs in place, and I started following

1270
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:45,200
Speaker 3: them and you know, went through the typical thing people

1271
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 3: go through, whether you know you start, you know, you

1272
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 3: go through the mark Riptote thing, you go through the

1273
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:53,280
Speaker 3: bodybuilding where you know, you do all these different worlds.

1274
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:57,720
Speaker 3: I found Dan John's work, which was so incredible. But

1275
01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 3: I just started seeing that I could really change how

1276
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 3: I felt. And you know, if you're a man of

1277
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:11,560
Speaker 3: that age, like I've never taken I never took a testosterone.

1278
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:13,600
Speaker 3: I've never taken a peptide other than a GLP one.

1279
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 3: I took creatine. Like all my numbers changed so dramatically,

1280
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:22,520
Speaker 3: and suddenly I went from I swear to you're not

1281
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:25,720
Speaker 3: being able to video of it. I mean I couldn't

1282
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:31,640
Speaker 3: deadlift sixty five pounds was like impossible and scary, more

1283
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:33,840
Speaker 3: scary than anything else. Like I was so scared about

1284
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:37,320
Speaker 3: my back. I couldn't do it to deadlifting three hundred pounds,

1285
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:40,439
Speaker 3: you know. And it's like that feeling of being able

1286
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 3: to put you know, to two point fifteen and back

1287
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 3: squat it full, you know, as to grass squats from honestly,

1288
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:53,160
Speaker 3: the bar was putting a bar on my back and

1289
01:06:53,200 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 3: squatting as to ground was not possible. Yeah, And it

1290
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:01,360
Speaker 3: just shifted everything this is now. You know, it's three

1291
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 3: years in almost of working out six days or seven

1292
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:11,440
Speaker 3: days a week, and obviously, like you just go to

1293
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:14,120
Speaker 3: my Instagram at the transit, I don't show like before

1294
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 3: pictures because I don't want anyone to be I feel

1295
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:18,880
Speaker 3: like I'm saying, if you look like I did in

1296
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:21,840
Speaker 3: the beginning, it's bad because everyone's on their own journey.

1297
01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:24,240
Speaker 2: But you could just scroll back and you'll.

1298
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:27,440
Speaker 3: See like I was somebody just with no zero muscle

1299
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:31,640
Speaker 3: and so weak, and now I'm not streno that. The

1300
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:33,480
Speaker 3: problem with living in the world of this, as you know,

1301
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:36,880
Speaker 3: is everybody stronger than me. I know I'm weak, but

1302
01:07:37,280 --> 01:07:39,520
Speaker 3: I also know that I'm really strong for my agent,

1303
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 3: for total I am and where I am now.

1304
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:43,640
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's awesome too, because I feel like

1305
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:46,959
Speaker 1: a lot of people to you were what fifty seven

1306
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:48,320
Speaker 1: when you started. I feel like a lot of people

1307
01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:50,800
Speaker 1: at that age would just go, what's the point Now

1308
01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:53,000
Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm past fifty five.

1309
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 3: Well, people will say you can't build muscle, and yeah,

1310
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:57,640
Speaker 3: I can't go I'm not gonna look like Sam Sulik. Ever,

1311
01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:01,400
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna you know, be Mitchell Hooper with strength.

1312
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:04,720
Speaker 3: I'm I'm you know, I would love to deadlift four

1313
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:07,240
Speaker 3: h five and I'd love to squat three fifteen. Like

1314
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:08,840
Speaker 3: I really don't know if I'll be able to squat

1315
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:11,000
Speaker 3: three fifteen because I don't want to gain a lot

1316
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:15,240
Speaker 3: of weight to do it. But man, trying to do

1317
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 3: that in a slow, steady manner, you know. And also

1318
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:21,240
Speaker 3: there's so much like the kettle The reason I talk

1319
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 3: abou kettlebell so much is I just love what I

1320
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:28,639
Speaker 3: love what they allow because you can, like I'm doing

1321
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 3: an eight week thing right now where I'm really not

1322
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 3: doing bar bells for eight weeks, and it's a great reset.

1323
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:37,400
Speaker 3: I can use kettlebells for conditioning and strength, like and

1324
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:40,000
Speaker 3: you know the kind of thing Dan John or Brett

1325
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:42,880
Speaker 3: Jones talks about like iron cardio or the armor building

1326
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:44,960
Speaker 3: formula or something. And you do that and you're not

1327
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:46,560
Speaker 3: going to lose your strength gains, and you're going to

1328
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:49,200
Speaker 3: gain conditioning and you're going to gain muscle, and I'm

1329
01:08:49,200 --> 01:08:50,519
Speaker 3: gonna come back to barbells fresherre.

1330
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:51,759
Speaker 2: At my age, you do have to iterate.

1331
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:53,800
Speaker 3: At my age, you do have to you know, I

1332
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:56,720
Speaker 3: think at my age it's hard to just do three

1333
01:08:56,720 --> 01:08:59,800
Speaker 3: to five reps and keep trying to just do pure

1334
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:04,000
Speaker 3: strength I know I needed to do. Then you need

1335
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:05,560
Speaker 3: to walk away from it to come I think for me,

1336
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:09,200
Speaker 3: you know, I think that's reasonable and it's also fun

1337
01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:13,960
Speaker 3: becoming like I cannot tell you how every day. So

1338
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:18,280
Speaker 3: in this process, Michael, a friend of mine and Amy's

1339
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:26,040
Speaker 3: a really incredible guy, gave me a comfort crisis and

1340
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:27,840
Speaker 3: he was like, I think you're really I think this

1341
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:31,519
Speaker 3: will mean something to you, and adding rocking in, but

1342
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:35,720
Speaker 3: more than that, adding an okay at a stage in

1343
01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:41,400
Speaker 3: life where I think the pull toward comfort is really

1344
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:50,400
Speaker 3: natural actually and seductive to read about the benefits of

1345
01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:53,680
Speaker 3: discomfort and I didn't need you know, your book to

1346
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:59,880
Speaker 3: tell me to exercise hard, but the idea that to it,

1347
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:02,760
Speaker 3: it's not a bad thing to walk around in a

1348
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:09,559
Speaker 3: state of readiness toward discomfort in a society because you honestly,

1349
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:14,200
Speaker 3: we've all gotten a flat tire. And there's a difference

1350
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:16,519
Speaker 3: in your mind. If you're somebody who takes walks in

1351
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:22,400
Speaker 3: the annoying rain. Sometimes you're just prepared to take the

1352
01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:25,559
Speaker 3: walk in the annoying rain, so you're not also grappling

1353
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:29,360
Speaker 3: with that. And I think the value of that is

1354
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:33,720
Speaker 3: enormous and has been enormous for me. And I mean,

1355
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:36,840
Speaker 3: I just love finding things at my age that still

1356
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:40,559
Speaker 3: make me ask myself certain questions. That doesn't mean I

1357
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:44,320
Speaker 3: don't want to go spend two weeks at a resort.

1358
01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:44,960
Speaker 2: You know, I've.

1359
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:51,240
Speaker 3: If I've worked hard and I have the ability aiman

1360
01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:53,439
Speaker 3: I can go on a cushy vacation somewhere.

1361
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:54,960
Speaker 2: I'm so happy to go do that.

1362
01:10:55,920 --> 01:10:57,840
Speaker 3: But even if I do that, I'm going to get

1363
01:10:57,840 --> 01:10:59,360
Speaker 3: in the gym and I'm going to do something really

1364
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:04,080
Speaker 3: hard and I'm gonna rock somewhere. And if it sucks out,

1365
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:07,400
Speaker 3: I mean I'm going to I don't care.

1366
01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:08,840
Speaker 2: And that thing.

1367
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 3: I think of your book all the time, you know,

1368
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:15,240
Speaker 3: even if I give me if you go on something

1369
01:11:15,240 --> 01:11:17,599
Speaker 3: like an electric bike, which is so easy to battle,

1370
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:20,240
Speaker 3: but it starts the other day, I got on the

1371
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:22,519
Speaker 3: e bike to bike home. The bike home's five miles,

1372
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:25,600
Speaker 3: but it's New York City, you're dodgeship, and it was

1373
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:30,640
Speaker 3: like out of nowhere, it's hailstorm awesome, And it was

1374
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:33,920
Speaker 3: hail and I was soaked and I was like, oh

1375
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:37,200
Speaker 3: this is awesome. It sucked, you know, I was miserable,

1376
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 3: and I immediately flipped it and I was like, what reps.

1377
01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:42,760
Speaker 3: This is the best reps. Look at the reps I'm getting.

1378
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:44,800
Speaker 3: I'm on an e bike, so it's not like I'm

1379
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:48,519
Speaker 3: pedaling hard. The pedaling part is handled for me. All

1380
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:51,360
Speaker 3: I have to have is like the inner resources to

1381
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:53,040
Speaker 3: go no, no, I don't need to go pull over

1382
01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:55,600
Speaker 3: and run inside a bar shivering. And know what I

1383
01:11:55,600 --> 01:11:58,719
Speaker 3: can do is just be like, look at this, there's

1384
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:01,639
Speaker 3: only three And when I saw it's about four people still,

1385
01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 3: I got all the way to the path on the

1386
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:04,840
Speaker 3: west side and they were like the whole way home,

1387
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:09,240
Speaker 3: I only ran like four other people still biking, and

1388
01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:11,760
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, those are my people. And then

1389
01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 3: I also noticed the people working, you know, I noticed

1390
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:18,640
Speaker 3: the bike messengers who had to be there right and

1391
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:21,519
Speaker 3: had to suffer through it. And I was like, look

1392
01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:24,160
Speaker 3: at that, like, Okay, they have to suffer through this.

1393
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:26,800
Speaker 2: I don't have to. I chose to suffer through this.

1394
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:29,280
Speaker 3: Why Because I'm gonna have to because we all have to,

1395
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:32,479
Speaker 3: and I'm gonna be ready to when I have to.

1396
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:34,400
Speaker 2: And I got home and how good was that shower?

1397
01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:37,800
Speaker 1: It was awesome when I totally just totally modulates the experience.

1398
01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:40,479
Speaker 2: And it was like, it was great. And that's a

1399
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:44,759
Speaker 2: result of your book, like a direct result of Andrew

1400
01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:46,920
Speaker 2: Bach that's his name, is a great guy giving me

1401
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:51,160
Speaker 2: this book and saying like, I think you'll get something

1402
01:12:51,200 --> 01:12:51,559
Speaker 2: out of this.

1403
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:53,960
Speaker 1: You know, Well, one thing I love about you is

1404
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:58,680
Speaker 1: that you pull from so many different resources. You're just curious,

1405
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:01,280
Speaker 1: and you're also not afraid to just reach out to people.

1406
01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:02,080
Speaker 2: You know.

1407
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:04,120
Speaker 1: It's like you hear of a cool trainer, like a

1408
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 1: Dan John or whatever. They've got great ideas, like you'll

1409
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:09,960
Speaker 1: just send them a message and pick their brain and

1410
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:10,599
Speaker 1: it's awesome.

1411
01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:14,679
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1412
01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:18,360
Speaker 3: But you too, right because when I when I followed you,

1413
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:20,479
Speaker 3: you wrote me. You wrote me, and you were like

1414
01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:21,759
Speaker 3: I used to listen to your podcast.

1415
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:23,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, you had said something on a podcast. So I

1416
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:26,120
Speaker 1: was like, oh, that's interesting. So I shot you a message.

1417
01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:28,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, you shot me a message about the podcast. And

1418
01:13:28,320 --> 01:13:29,600
Speaker 3: when I went when I went to reach out for you,

1419
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:31,679
Speaker 3: it's like, oh, he'd reached out, Like it was great.

1420
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:34,559
Speaker 3: Yeah I am. Look, that's what I will say though,

1421
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:41,120
Speaker 3: that is like a great kind of mostly unintended consequence

1422
01:13:42,120 --> 01:13:45,200
Speaker 3: of having gotten to do work that has resonated with

1423
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:48,920
Speaker 3: people over the last thirty years.

1424
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:49,080
Speaker 1: Is that.

1425
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:53,000
Speaker 3: I know I do have the ability to reach out

1426
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:54,600
Speaker 3: and I did it before, right when I went up

1427
01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:58,080
Speaker 3: to Tracy. Wasn't like I I've always been someone who

1428
01:13:58,080 --> 01:14:02,479
Speaker 3: did that. But I also know that it's possible to

1429
01:14:02,479 --> 01:14:04,280
Speaker 3: write somebody and they're going to say what you said,

1430
01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:07,599
Speaker 3: I like your podcast, or they're going to say I

1431
01:14:07,720 --> 01:14:09,200
Speaker 3: liked your first movie, or they're going to say I

1432
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:11,360
Speaker 3: like your show. And then so I do have like

1433
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:14,760
Speaker 3: a way to engage in a conversation because I've done

1434
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:18,800
Speaker 3: work that also sometimes will resonate with people. But even

1435
01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:23,240
Speaker 3: when that's not the case, people work so hard on

1436
01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:25,160
Speaker 3: their stuff. Like if I can send somebody a note

1437
01:14:26,200 --> 01:14:29,519
Speaker 3: and say your work has an impact, I want to

1438
01:14:29,560 --> 01:14:33,320
Speaker 3: send that note. And yeah, I want to learn and

1439
01:14:33,360 --> 01:14:38,400
Speaker 3: I want to I also want to help teach people

1440
01:14:38,439 --> 01:14:41,559
Speaker 3: if I can about stuff that I know, like I love.

1441
01:14:41,600 --> 01:14:45,120
Speaker 3: We're all human beings and we're all along this path.

1442
01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:48,200
Speaker 3: And I think you gain I don't know. I think

1443
01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:51,760
Speaker 3: you just gained so much from interacting with people who

1444
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:55,160
Speaker 3: are whose experience is not like yours. And I guess

1445
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:57,320
Speaker 3: that's really the what do I get at a reading

1446
01:14:58,520 --> 01:15:00,640
Speaker 3: about Cameron Haynes's life, Right, what I get out of

1447
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:04,320
Speaker 3: reading about his life is an understanding of people whose

1448
01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:07,760
Speaker 3: belief system mirrors his. Well, of course, if he grew

1449
01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:10,639
Speaker 3: up or I did raise the way I was by

1450
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:14,280
Speaker 3: the parents I had and then community I was in, well,

1451
01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:15,880
Speaker 3: the belief system would look a lot more like my

1452
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:21,000
Speaker 3: belief system. But that's not the way that that person

1453
01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:24,760
Speaker 3: was raised. And so if I want to instead of

1454
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:26,640
Speaker 3: just thinking like I know better, if I want to

1455
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:32,560
Speaker 3: instead think, well, why does another a really smart, rigorous

1456
01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 3: person think about the world so differently than I do? Well,

1457
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:41,439
Speaker 3: if I acknowledge that's another set that person's smart, and

1458
01:15:41,479 --> 01:15:45,280
Speaker 3: if I acknowledge their rigorous then I can't just write

1459
01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:46,519
Speaker 3: off their belief system.

1460
01:15:46,640 --> 01:15:49,360
Speaker 2: I have to instead be curious about it, and I have.

1461
01:15:49,360 --> 01:15:51,760
Speaker 3: To instead say like, well, how can I understand it

1462
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:54,840
Speaker 3: and not even be there to change it? But if

1463
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:57,400
Speaker 3: I understand it, will something shift in me? That then

1464
01:15:57,439 --> 01:15:59,559
Speaker 3: I can relay back to that person if we ever meet,

1465
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:02,160
Speaker 3: and maybe something would shift in them, and maybe we'll

1466
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 3: all move toward a place a better understanding. Now that's

1467
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:09,040
Speaker 3: very optimistic, but it's easy to be pessimistic. So I

1468
01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:12,840
Speaker 3: want to I'd rather try to queue toward optimism.

1469
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:14,400
Speaker 1: I love it all right. I want to land the

1470
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:18,559
Speaker 1: plane with a rapid fire lightning round it. You can

1471
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:21,559
Speaker 1: pick three exercises, you can only do those for the

1472
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:22,679
Speaker 1: rest of your life. What are you picking?

1473
01:16:23,840 --> 01:16:31,040
Speaker 3: Overhead press backsquat and fuck them all? The Turkish get up?

1474
01:16:32,160 --> 01:16:34,600
Speaker 1: I love it. What is your relationship to the New

1475
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:35,320
Speaker 1: York Knicks.

1476
01:16:35,439 --> 01:16:38,360
Speaker 3: I mean, as we're talking right now, whenever this episode airs,

1477
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:44,120
Speaker 3: We've just vanquished the Hawks of Atlanta and after just

1478
01:16:44,160 --> 01:16:48,600
Speaker 3: a dreadful second and third game. My first memory is

1479
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:51,880
Speaker 3: my dad taking me to the Knicks and I was

1480
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:59,400
Speaker 3: four years old, and I love the Knicks. There I

1481
01:16:59,479 --> 01:17:01,519
Speaker 3: bleed our and blue. I wish I didn't, but I do.

1482
01:17:03,240 --> 01:17:06,560
Speaker 1: Top three TV shows of all time, the Sopranos.

1483
01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:08,960
Speaker 2: And mad Men are one and two. I will I

1484
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:09,679
Speaker 2: will hear, no.

1485
01:17:11,320 --> 01:17:13,360
Speaker 1: I will I will not. I'm on season four of

1486
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:15,960
Speaker 1: mad Men, prompted good bye. I didn't lie to you, right,

1487
01:17:16,960 --> 01:17:18,840
Speaker 1: you didn't lie to me took me. The first season.

1488
01:17:18,880 --> 01:17:20,400
Speaker 1: I was like, now, let's see how this goes, and

1489
01:17:20,439 --> 01:17:22,960
Speaker 1: then by the second season, I was like, I'm in awesome.

1490
01:17:23,040 --> 01:17:24,800
Speaker 3: The second season is where it really had me too.

1491
01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:27,160
Speaker 3: I watched the first season because friends told me, and

1492
01:17:27,200 --> 01:17:29,439
Speaker 3: then once the second season started, I'm on a rocket.

1493
01:17:29,439 --> 01:17:31,320
Speaker 3: Shit those two and I'm going to tell you a

1494
01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:34,439
Speaker 3: couple that are in the third slot.

1495
01:17:34,680 --> 01:17:35,479
Speaker 2: West Wing.

1496
01:17:37,439 --> 01:17:43,360
Speaker 3: Larry Sanders Show is an incredible show, I think, and

1497
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:45,400
Speaker 3: I can make an argument for Deadwood too.

1498
01:17:46,320 --> 01:17:49,519
Speaker 1: I like it. What's something that's come out in the

1499
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:53,400
Speaker 1: past two years that everyone should watch, read, or listen to.

1500
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:55,160
Speaker 1: So this could be book music.

1501
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:58,120
Speaker 3: I would say, go listen with Jason II isbell album.

1502
01:17:58,680 --> 01:18:01,519
Speaker 3: Jason Isbell's last album, Fox in the Snow is just

1503
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:04,360
Speaker 3: an incredible record, So I would say.

1504
01:18:06,160 --> 01:18:09,240
Speaker 2: Go do that. As far as.

1505
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:13,600
Speaker 3: Television show, you know, it's a fascinating television show and

1506
01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:15,200
Speaker 3: gives you a lot of an understanding about the world.

1507
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:19,160
Speaker 3: Go watch uh, go watch Unreal, which is the behind

1508
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:22,639
Speaker 3: the scenes of the WWE. It's like, I don't watch

1509
01:18:22,640 --> 01:18:25,320
Speaker 3: any reality television, but I would.

1510
01:18:25,080 --> 01:18:26,719
Speaker 2: Just I mean, I could, I could.

1511
01:18:26,840 --> 01:18:30,000
Speaker 3: I could definitely say, like, you know, a TV series

1512
01:18:30,040 --> 01:18:34,160
Speaker 3: and Agency is really good. I loved The Crown, but

1513
01:18:34,160 --> 01:18:39,679
Speaker 3: but Unreal is great because it's layers upon layers of

1514
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:43,400
Speaker 3: a work versus a shoot, and they're presenting it as

1515
01:18:43,400 --> 01:18:45,920
Speaker 3: though it's a shoot, and it mostly is, but they're

1516
01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:49,280
Speaker 3: always it's always a work also, and so it's really

1517
01:18:49,360 --> 01:18:53,639
Speaker 3: great to get inside of that. And I'm gonna I'm

1518
01:18:53,640 --> 01:19:00,880
Speaker 3: gonna say I think Dan John's Easy Strength Cominibus is

1519
01:19:00,920 --> 01:19:03,120
Speaker 3: a great book to read because it's about life as

1520
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:04,400
Speaker 3: much as it's about strength training.

1521
01:19:04,600 --> 01:19:07,960
Speaker 1: He's fantastic, all right. Ending on that, someone over fifty

1522
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:10,599
Speaker 1: listening right now, not as active as they wish they were,

1523
01:19:10,640 --> 01:19:11,679
Speaker 1: what would you tell them?

1524
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:16,839
Speaker 3: Yes, start go get yourself a sixteen Okay, you're gonna

1525
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:21,160
Speaker 3: just go get yourself a twelve kg and a sixteen

1526
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:26,040
Speaker 3: kg kettlebell and go on Instagram and look up one

1527
01:19:26,120 --> 01:19:32,960
Speaker 3: bell kettlebell routines and start slowly. Get simple and Sinister

1528
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:35,320
Speaker 3: by Pavel. Actually it is a great way to start.

1529
01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:38,200
Speaker 3: And all you have to do is swing the kettlebell

1530
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:40,280
Speaker 3: and do some get ups and that'll get you started.

1531
01:19:40,360 --> 01:19:42,320
Speaker 3: And there's never been a better time to learn about

1532
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:45,280
Speaker 3: how to get in shape and move your body. I

1533
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:47,799
Speaker 3: will say, you just feel so much better. I feel

1534
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:52,800
Speaker 3: so much better, you know, And I would start in

1535
01:19:52,840 --> 01:19:53,640
Speaker 3: those places.

1536
01:19:53,840 --> 01:19:56,720
Speaker 1: I love it. Brian, thanks for coming on the show man.

1537
01:19:56,760 --> 01:19:59,479
Speaker 2: This is awesome, Hey man, I hope there's some utility

1538
01:19:59,479 --> 01:20:01,559
Speaker 2: to it's alway. It's great to see you, Michael, my pleasure.

1539
01:20:03,120 --> 01:20:05,400
Speaker 1: Thanks for checking out the show, and thanks to Brian

1540
01:20:05,479 --> 01:20:09,200
Speaker 1: for jumping on. Definitely check out his work. Watch Rounders,

1541
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:13,120
Speaker 1: watch Oceans thirteen, and watch all seven seasons of Billions.

1542
01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:16,240
Speaker 1: As a reminder, we are in your feed twice a

1543
01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:19,760
Speaker 1: week with new episodes dropping all the time, and you

1544
01:20:19,800 --> 01:20:22,920
Speaker 1: should definitely send us a question that you want me

1545
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:26,120
Speaker 1: to answer for our Ask Michael Anything section. You can

1546
01:20:26,160 --> 01:20:29,800
Speaker 1: send them to media at twpct dot com. You can

1547
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:32,200
Speaker 1: put them in the comments, and if you want, please

1548
01:20:32,240 --> 01:20:35,320
Speaker 1: send us a voice memo or a video of yourself

1549
01:20:35,360 --> 01:20:37,800
Speaker 1: asking the question. We will try to get to as

1550
01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:41,120
Speaker 1: many as we can do not forget to subscribe. That

1551
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:44,760
Speaker 1: is apparently very important, the overlords tell me. And then

1552
01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:48,000
Speaker 1: to close things out as we always will have fun,

1553
01:20:48,600 --> 01:20:49,280
Speaker 1: don't die.