WEBVTT - Biden Team’s “Delusion and Denial” with Chris Whipple 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:04.200 Look, they knew they had a problem with Biden. I 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:06.880 think the key distinction here is that some of those 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:10.920 same people believe he could govern, He just couldn't campaign. 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:16.320 Everybody was shocked by that meltdown or or whatever it 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:21.279 was that Biden suffered during that debate, except his inner circle. 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.640 Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is Next Question. 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:33.960 Hi everyone for this episode of Next Question. I'm coming 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:36.240 to you from my daughter and son in law's home 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:39.920 in Los Angeles, where I'm visiting my one year old 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:43.800 grandson Jay. So, if you hear a baby crying or 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:47.080 gurgling in the background, that is Jay. I think I 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:49.879 hear him now. Or if you hear a dog barking, 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:55.040 that is Elist and Marx Wheaton terrier Ricky. So apologies 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:58.400 in advance. Meanwhile, I'm super excited to talk to Chris Whipple. 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:03.080 He is a historian slash journalist New York Times bestselling author. 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:06.640 He's written a book called Uncharted, How Trump Beat Biden, 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:10.200 Harris and the Odds, and the Wildest Campaign in History. 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:15.000 It's really an inside look at what was happening, primarily 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:19.760 in the final year or so of the Biden administration 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:26.080 and why despite all indications, or some indications to some people, 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:29.600 not to everyone. He stayed in the race so long 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.800 and gave Kamala Harris only one hundred and seven days, 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:38.360 I think, to wage her campaign against Donald Trump. It's 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:42.720 full of intrigue. It's really a fascinating read, not only 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:47.040 about the Biden administration and the inner circle, if you will, 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:49.920 but also what was going on in the Trump campaign. 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:52.800 If you're a political junkie, or if you're just wondering 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:56.040 how we got into the mess we're in right now, 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:01.480 this is a mustage read. Chris Whipple, Great to see you, 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:02.800 Welcome to next question. 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:04.080 Great to be with you. 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:08.240 So I found this book so fascinating. I felt like 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:11.160 a true fly on the wall when it came to 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:16.480 the inner workings of not only the Biden administration, but 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:20.240 also the Trump campaign at various points, as well as 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:24.120 the Trump presidency. But I want to start by asking 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:30.200 you about Joe Biden's inner circles desire to limit his 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:34.080 exposure to the public and the press leading up to 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:37.960 the twenty twenty four campaign. You describe it as stranger 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:42.120 and way more troubling than a cover up. Can you 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.720 explain to us this idea and help us understand what 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:48.240 was actually going on behind the scenes. 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:50.920 Yeah, you know, Katie, first of all, it's great to 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:52.680 be with you. Thanks for having me. It was the 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:56.040 wildest campaign in history, as we all know just living 0:02:56.080 --> 0:03:00.600 through it, but even wilder behind closed doors, where I 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:04.679 was able to go thanks to you pretty unique access 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:10.359 to the inner circles of Biden and Trump and Kamala 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:14.400 Harris's top advisors as well. It was to me it 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:19.880 was stranger and wilder and more tragic than a classic 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:22.240 cover up. I mean, we think when we think of 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:25.720 cover up in a Watergate sense, it's something that you 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:29.240 know to be true and you're hiding from the public. 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.079 What was different about this situation is that Joe Biden's 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:36.320 inner circle and I was able to spend time with 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:40.000 all of them, virtually all of them. They most of 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:44.840 them convinced themselves that Biden should run for reelection, that 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:47.360 he could win the election, and that he could govern 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:51.200 for another four years. Now, you know, anybody who's had 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:55.080 to take the keys away from an octagenarian grandfather the 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:59.680 car keys knows that Biden was really too old to 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:04.640 run for reelection, but they didn't believe it, and I'm 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:08.520 talking now about that Mike Donell on his alter ego, 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:15.360 Bruce Reid, Steve Roschetti, Ron Klain, who's a major player 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:19.400 in my book. As you know, Anita Done, Anita Done. 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:24.120 They believed what they believed instead of their lying eyes. 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:30.760 Well, we'll talk about their motives later. But Obama's former 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:35.280 chief of Staff Bill Daily described the situation a bit 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:39.360 more bluntly. He said, every freaking one of them had 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:41.680 no balls. Do you agree? 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:44.960 You know, it was a failure of leadership, as leon 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:47.279 Panetta put it to me too. And he's one of 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:51.120 the people I talked to about this. I love Daily 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:54.080 because he's a truth teller, the no filter. He just 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.760 tells you exactly what he's thinking. In this case, he 0:04:56.839 --> 0:05:00.560 was referring not only to Biden's inner circle, but I 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:04.279 think principally he was referring to Democrats who failed to 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:07.760 step up and challenge Biden for the nomination. Those were 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.960 the ones who he said had no freaking balls. But 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:13.600 he also agrees that. You know, when I talked to 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.360 him about Biden's inner circle, I said, how is it 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:21.760 possible they knew what you were seeing? You couldn't unsee 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:26.720 Biden's debate performance that disaster on June twenty seventh. Why 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:30.279 did they do it? And Daily's best answer was, Look, 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:33.159 you're in the bubble. You've crossed the rubicon. There's no 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:38.360 going back. There is a kind of gravitational force when 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:43.039 you're in that inner circle at the highest levels of 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:45.640 power that is very seductive. 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:50.440 The book opens at former President of Biden's debate prep 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:55.320 session at Camp David. It was just days before that 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:59.359 first presidential debate. Ron Klain, who was the former chiefs 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:03.200 of staff who was leading his debate prep, told you 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:09.479 that Biden was pretty clueless about the administration's positions on 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:12.840 a number of key issues like inflation. He didn't know 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:16.520 what Trump had been saying. In other words, he really 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:20.760 wasn't up to speed on not only what was going 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:27.080 on in the country, but his own administration's positions. Can 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:30.160 you set the scene for us and tell us about 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:34.320 ron Klain's horror at this realization. 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:39.520 Yeah. You know, ron Klain, who was a really effective 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:41.880 White House chief of staff in my view, and I 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.440 know something about the history of White House chiefs for 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:49.679 the first two years, painted this devastating portrait of Biden 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:55.080 at Camp David. In the days immediately receding that fateful debate, 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:58.880 Biden was out of it. Clane was startled. He'd never 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:03.320 seen him so exhausted and and out of touch. He 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:05.720 didn't appear to be aware of what was going on, 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:09.800 and in the campaign he said v Trump. At one point, 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:14.880 he wanders out of Aspen Lodge the presidential cabin, goes 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:18.440 to the pool, collapses into an armchair and falls sound 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:20.240 to sleep, which is in the middle of a session 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:23.040 they were having. Claian allured him back that night and 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:27.360 they continued, but he really couldn't articulate what he wanted 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.680 to do in a second term. And this was fascinating me. 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:35.160 He was obsessed with foreign leaders and what foreign leaders 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:38.000 thought of him. At one point Clane said, half jokingly, 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:40.040 I wondered if he thought he was president of NATO 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:43.640 instead of President of the US. He was obsessed with Macron, 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:47.040 e Manuel Macrone of France and Olaf Schultz of Germany. 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:49.480 And he said, well, they think I'm a great president, 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:51.720 I must be a great president. I could go on 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:55.160 and on, but at another point Biden said I've got 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:58.480 an idea, and Clain said, what's that? If I looked 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:03.080 perplexed on camera during the debate, people will think Trump's 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:07.920 an idiot, to which Klan replied, Sir, if you look perplexed, 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:09.960 people are just going to think you're perplexed, and that's 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:11.160 our problem in this race. 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:16.520 It's just unbelievable to me that Ron Klain saw this, 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:22.200 he knew there was trouble, and yet he never tried 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:26.119 to convince Joe Biden to drop out of the race. 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:28.320 How do you understand that disconnect? 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:32.680 That's why I say that this is stranger and wilder 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.640 and more tragic than a cover up, and assess it's 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:41.560 really hard to reconcile the two round Klans in my book. 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:46.600 I mean, the first is the politically savvy former White 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:49.040 House chief of staff who's been around the block and 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:55.640 had prepared eight presidential candidates counta over his career, who 0:08:55.840 --> 0:09:00.559 saw just how wobbly and out of it Joe Biden 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:04.000 was during the debate prep. How do you reconcile that 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.840 with the Ron Klain, who, a month later, in the 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:12.040 final days and final hours of Biden's being on the ticket, 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:17.760 bought a battle to save his reelection to keep him 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:21.880 on the ticket, believed that this wasn't, as Ron put 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:25.520 it to me, it wasn't about Biden's age. It was 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:29.160 a power grab by the elites, by the donors and 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:34.760 the conservative wing of the party. Ron Klain believed that. 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:38.760 I think he and the other advisers, other advisors had 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:43.800 different reasons. I mean, that wasn't a universal take. Claim. 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:49.240 Believed that somehow, if Joe Biden could rally the progressives 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:51.480 in the party and have them all walk out of 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:54.080 the White House and lawn with him, that he could 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:57.760 salvage his reelection, his place at the top of the ticket, 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:02.480 and win reelection evidently governed for another four years. It's 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:07.560 hard to reconcile the politically smart, savvy Ron Klain with 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.599 the guy who fought that battle right up until the 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:11.280 eleventh power. 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:15.440 It's also hard to square this notion that Joe Biden 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:18.960 could have endured the rigors of a campaign. You know, 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:22.800 you write about the race. In twenty twenty they had 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:26.640 a reason to keep Joe Biden from traveling, from making 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:29.960 a lot of public appearances, and that was COVID. But 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:34.559 twenty twenty four obviously was a whole different ballgame. And 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.200 it sounds to me like even in twenty twenty. He 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:43.280 might not have withstood the exhaustion of a campaign, but 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:46.120 clearly he was in better shape then than he was 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:47.520 in twenty four. 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:51.080 Yeah, Biden's campaign team knew that they caught a break 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:54.760 in twenty twenty in the form of COVID, because they 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:57.400 could blame it on COVID. They could have Biden campaign 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:00.840 from his basement and have already excuse for that. And 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:04.120 there's an extraordinary scene in the book in which a 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:08.600 campaign operative from the twenty twenty campaign comes and interviews 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:12.000 for a top position in the twenty twenty four campaign. 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:15.360 She's in the oval office with Biden and his top 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:20.520 advisors and it takes this unexpectedly candid turn when one 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:25.560 of them says to this applicant, this operative, listen, you know, 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:27.560 in twenty twenty we had COVID. We had a great 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:29.480 excuse to keep them in the basement. What do we 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:32.720 do now? Look, they knew they had a problem with Biden. 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:34.680 They knew that he was a shadow of himself on 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:37.160 the stump and had been for a long time, that 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:42.480 he couldn't really do a traditional barnstorming campaign. I think 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.160 the key distinction here is that some of those same 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:49.000 people believe he could govern, He just couldn't campaign. 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:01.040 What if we told you it was possible to prevent, 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:04.120 manage your cure all disease by the end of the century. 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:09.679 The Chans Zuckerberg Initiative is advancing biomedical research and leveraging 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:14.200 AI to change medicine for decades to come. By bringing 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:18.520 together science, tech researchers, and engineers, they're building a better 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:23.240 future for everyone. Learn more at CZI dot com that's 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:38.240 CZI dot com, or follow them on social media. I 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:42.640 want to get back to that catastrophic debate performance for 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:47.559 a moment, because that was I think a wake up 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:53.280 call where everyone there was a collective gas when Joe 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:57.400 Biden could not really articulate his views and kind of 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:01.440 that's when he said about, you know, saving Medicare, which 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:03.040 had nothing to do with the question. 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:07.320 We have one thousand trillionaires in America, I mean billionaires 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:10.640 in America, and what's happening. They're in a situation where 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.440 they in fact pay eight point two percent in taxes. 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:16.720 If they just paid twenty four or twenty five percent, 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:19.840 either one of those numbers, they'd raised five hundred million 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:23.040 dollars billion dollars. I should say in a ten year period, 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:25.120 we'd be able to write wipe out his debt. We'd 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.320 be able to help make sure that all those things 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.640 we need to do, childcare, elder care, making sure that 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.920 we continue to suppreent strength in our healthcare system, making 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:37.160 sure that we're able to make every single solitary person 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:40.840 eligible for what I've been able to do with the 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.560 with the COVID, I was could be with dealing with 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:53.000 everything we have to do with Look if we finally 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:54.520 beat medicare. 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:56.360 Thank you, President Biden, President Trump. 0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:01.800 I was surprised that, even after that debate performance, his 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:07.040 inner circle defended it, and Anita Dunn even told people 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.000 that Joe Biden had won the debate. How could she 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:14.600 think that in a million years, Chris completely delusional. 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:18.600 I think that it's hard to explain, but you are right. 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:24.280 Everybody was shocked by that meltdown or or whatever it 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:29.200 was that Biden suffered during that debate, except his inner circle. 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:33.160 They were still all in. And Anita Dunn, for example, 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:36.480 was watching a dial a so called dial group, a 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:40.600 focused group of undecided voters who were turning a dial 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.440 one way or the other, up or down, registering their 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:47.320 reaction in real time, she convinced herself that because the 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:50.280 dials were turning down on the rest of the debate 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.880 when Trump was being outrageous, that somehow Biden had won 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:58.600 the debate, that they'd come out ahead. And you know 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.520 what other advisors said, this was just a quote unquote 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:02.240 bad night. 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:05.120 Right. People said he had a cold, right. 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:07.880 They said he was exhausted, They and they, but they 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:11.560 literally said it was just a bad night. In other words, 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:15.680 like Barack Obama's first debate against Mitt Romney, which was 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:20.240 not great, but nothing like this complete moment of when 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:24.680 when Biden lost it. It's it's a mystery, and that's 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.760 what makes I think the story so fascinating to me. 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.280 It's a study of you know, it's a at the 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:34.120 heart of it is this question which readers can try 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:36.960 to answer for themselves. But I invited me to pick 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:40.880 up the book and read ron Clan's description his words, 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:44.880 not mine, of Joe Biden during that debate prep and 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:50.120 ask themselves how that guy could believe that he could 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:52.040 run for reelection and win. 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:57.360 Was it the desire of this inner circle to stay 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:03.000 in power? I know, during this whole chapter, people would 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:07.120 point to Jill Biden and say, oh, it was Jill 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.280 Biden's fault. You know, they portrayed her as kind of 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:15.760 a lady Macbeth, ambitious in her own right. But after 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:18.760 writing this, after talking to all these people, did you 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:22.120 come to any conclusion? Was it different for every person? 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:25.920 For Ron Klain, was it just this loyalty that couldn't 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:29.680 be shaken for others? Was it their desire to stay 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:31.760 empowered themselves? What was it? 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:34.680 Well? I think there's loyalty, There's no question about it. 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.680 You could argue, if you're cynical, that it's a power grab, 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:41.840 that these guys the power derived from being in office 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.680 with Joe Biden. I think that's not quite That doesn't 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:49.280 quite answer it. Because if you talk to these guys 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:53.280 as I did, and including months after the debate, months 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:57.760 after Biden Withdrew, you came away I did. They were 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:01.920 in this fog of delusion, and Deny really convinced some 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:04.560 of them. I'm talking about Mike donald and Steve Erschetti, 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:09.119 Bruce Reid convinced that Biden would have won that re election. 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:13.600 You know, months later, Mike donaldan was at Harvard at 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:16.760 the Kennedy School speaking to an audience and said he 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:19.600 thought the party had lost its mind. It walked away 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.000 from a guy who won eighty one million votes, the 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:26.399 greatest vote getter in American history. So there is my 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:30.640 friend Jack Watson, who is Jimmy Carter's last white best 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:33.080 chief of staff, who should have been chief of staff 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:37.440 on day one. What's told me that there's a kind 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:43.760 of almost magnetic force field when you're in that rarefied 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:47.320 air of the White House and the Oval Office. It's 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:53.480 an extraordinary compulsion to protect the president at all costs. 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.040 And I think they lost their judgment here. I mean 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:59.320 they were delusional. These are guys who you would think. 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.639 I'll give you a quick example of how you know. 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:05.639 In nineteen eighty eight, one of the President's close friends, 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:09.320 Ted Kauffman, perhaps his closest friends. When Biden was ensnared 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:13.240 in that plagiarism scandal, was Kaufman who said, you know what, Joe, 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:18.760 it's time. It's over. That never happened, That never happened 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:22.480 this time around. And I don't know why not. They 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:25.600 were clear eyed veterans who lost their way. 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:31.040 You had an inkling that this was a foot when 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:34.159 you were writing your first book called The Fight of 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:38.640 His Life. And I know that you asked to interview 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:42.920 Joe Biden, and this was in September twenty twenty two, 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:45.840 and this was about the first two years of his 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:50.200 presidency or first book on Biden, and they would only 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.960 let you interview him if you submitted the questions in 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:57.879 writing and he would respond in writing. So did you 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:00.440 not even interview Joe Biden for that book? 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.480 I did. I interviewed him by email. I sent eight 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.840 questions in by email. I think it was eight. I 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:12.919 got replies back. They were obviously replies that were I 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:17.840 presume closely scrutinized by Ron Klain and maybe Anita Done, 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.280 who knows who else before they sent them back to me. 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:23.879 And who knows if he actually answered them. 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:26.720 Yeah, I'm pretty sure he answered them, because I was 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:29.520 talking to Ron Clay in real time and he was 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:32.439 describing meetings where he was going, come on, boss, you 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:36.080 got to do these, and so I'm pretty I'm convinced 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.040 they were his answers, but they were presumably cleaned up. 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:41.640 Maybe that's unfair, but that's I presume. 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:46.159 I wanted to share an interesting story that happened to me, Chris, 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.560 when Joe Biden had yet to drop out of the 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:53.879 race for the twenty twenty four campaign. I saw him 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:56.879 at an event where there were a lot of stand 0:19:56.960 --> 0:20:00.080 up to cancer supporters and I was invited, and I 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:04.040 had never gone to a fundraiser, and I was interested 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:09.840 in being an observer. And he did as he would 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:14.639 do in all these different events, including super casual events 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:17.760 like the Irish event you talked about, where he had 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:22.040 Irish politicians or politicians of Irish descent come to the 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.480 White House. He used to tell a prompter. He didn't 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:28.320 answer any questions. But he saw me, and I've known 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:32.119 him for decades and he said I miss you. And 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:34.240 I said, well, if you want to spend more time 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:36.199 with me, why don't you do an interview with me 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:40.760 and we can make up for lost time. And he 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:44.480 said I'd love that. After he was done giving the 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:48.840 short speech to funders, he leaned over to me again 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:51.040 and said, I really want to do an interview with you. 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:57.200 So then I approached his press people. They then told 0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:00.760 me to call and I got the run around like 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:05.080 there was no tomorrow. I got relegated to some guy 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.320 who did was in charge of digital interviews because it 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:13.600 was for online and a podcast and I asked, I wrote, 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:19.840 Anita done personally, and I was very much stonewalled. And 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:25.399 now reading your book, and obviously with the benefit of hindsight, 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:28.920 I see why. And you write that he never did 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:31.920 interviews with the New York Times or the Washington Post. 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:36.760 Didn't he hold fewer press conferences than any president and history? 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:38.240 Yeah, I believe that's correct. 0:21:38.800 --> 0:21:43.080 So do you think the White House Press Corps and 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:47.679 the media writ large should have been making more noise 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:48.400 about this? 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:51.960 Well, first of all, you used the perfect word stonewalled 0:21:52.320 --> 0:21:55.919 when describing the Biden Whitehouse us of VI the media. 0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:59.760 I really found it to be Nixonian in its contempt. 0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:03.640 Is too strong a word for the press, the White 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:07.680 House Press Corps. If you dared to suggest that Biden's 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:11.040 age was an issue, they went after you. If you 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:13.639 dared to write an op bed that suggested that everything 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:18.800 wasn't perfect, they would, they would close you down. And 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:21.800 and I think it. I think it came from Anita Dunne. 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:24.119 I think this was her. I mean, I think she 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:26.680 was a much more powerful figure in the Biden White 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:30.480 House than we realized at the time. So I would 0:22:30.520 --> 0:22:34.600 my guess, Katie, I mean my hunch is that Biden 0:22:34.920 --> 0:22:38.480 would have done that sit down with you and that done, 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:41.359 and the and the communications team shut that down in 0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:44.000 a heartbeat and said, no, you know, you will not 0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:46.920 be doing that. But that's that's the way this White 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:48.080 House operated. 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:53.680 It is confounding that after the debate, I know Valerie 0:22:53.720 --> 0:23:01.040 Biden was absolutely apoplectic. She was his long time like, 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:05.880 how come Valerie Biden didn't see the writing on the wall, 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:07.679 Chris Well. 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:12.399 So here's here's the thing. And this is why I 0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:15.200 say that this is different from a quote unquote cover 0:23:15.359 --> 0:23:19.760 up in the classic sense. There were some inconvenient truths 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:22.840 to that theory, and one of them is the fact 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:27.360 that behind closed doors, more often than not, Joe Biden 0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:32.640 governed capably. He was fine. I can tell you innumerable 0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:36.440 people senators who came and met with him about Middle 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:39.400 Eastern policy who said he was on top of every 0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:43.680 I and T, crossing every tee and knew it cold 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:48.160 and could articulate it very clearly. On the morning that 0:23:48.520 --> 0:23:53.360 his senior advisors that fateful weekend of July twenty twenty one, 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:57.680 when his advisors came to hammer out the abdication statement 0:23:57.800 --> 0:24:02.040 that morning, Biden was on the phone parsing the details 0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:04.919 of one of the most complicated prisoner swaps in history, 0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:09.440 multi nation deal. Mike Donalon, who is a senior advisor 0:24:09.720 --> 0:24:15.320 maybe closest political advisor is alter Ego, swears up and 0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:19.840 down that he never saw Joe Biden mentally diminished, said 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:23.879 he never saw period. Now is he lying maybe? Is 0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:27.359 he delusional? Maybe? But that's his story and it's hard 0:24:27.359 --> 0:24:32.119 to You can't just wish these inconvenient things away. In 0:24:32.320 --> 0:24:34.399 arguing that it's a classic cover up, I don't think 0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:34.720 it was. 0:24:35.359 --> 0:24:38.360 I also think this is a very sensitive matter, as 0:24:38.440 --> 0:24:42.159 you described earlier, Chris. You know, when you have to 0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:46.280 handle taking the car keys away from an elderly parent, 0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:51.680 it is such an emotional situation, right, and you're dealing 0:24:51.840 --> 0:24:56.440 with someone who's aging, and you don't I think you're 0:24:56.480 --> 0:24:59.439 aware that you don't want to be agist, that you 0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:05.080 don't want to accuse someone of losing their faculties. I mean, 0:25:05.119 --> 0:25:08.639 the whole thing is just so fraught, and I think 0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:13.359 this was a microcosm of conversations that are had every 0:25:13.520 --> 0:25:18.359 day around the dinner table or the living room sofa 0:25:18.680 --> 0:25:21.080 when you have to talk to an aging parent. 0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:25.399 Yeah, so no question about it exponentially magnified by the 0:25:25.440 --> 0:25:29.560 stakes involved, not just power for the people around Biden, 0:25:29.640 --> 0:25:32.840 but the future of the country and the fate of 0:25:32.880 --> 0:25:36.440 the world. I mean, I'm not exaggerating. I mean those 0:25:36.440 --> 0:25:41.080 are the stakes here. Joe Biden's legacy, the Democratic Party's future, 0:25:41.760 --> 0:25:45.679 the result of the twenty twenty four election, and the 0:25:45.680 --> 0:25:48.240 fate of the country and the world. Put all those 0:25:48.280 --> 0:25:51.920