Speaker 1: Look, they knew they had a problem with Biden. I
Speaker 1: think the key distinction here is that some of those
Speaker 1: same people believe he could govern, He just couldn't campaign.
Speaker 1: Everybody was shocked by that meltdown or or whatever it
Speaker 1: was that Biden suffered during that debate, except his inner circle.
Speaker 2: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is Next Question.
Speaker 2: Hi everyone for this episode of Next Question. I'm coming
Speaker 2: to you from my daughter and son in law's home
Speaker 2: in Los Angeles, where I'm visiting my one year old
Speaker 2: grandson Jay. So, if you hear a baby crying or
Speaker 2: gurgling in the background, that is Jay. I think I
Speaker 2: hear him now. Or if you hear a dog barking,
Speaker 2: that is Elist and Marx Wheaton terrier Ricky. So apologies
Speaker 2: in advance. Meanwhile, I'm super excited to talk to Chris Whipple.
Speaker 2: He is a historian slash journalist New York Times bestselling author.
Speaker 2: He's written a book called Uncharted, How Trump Beat Biden,
Speaker 2: Harris and the Odds, and the Wildest Campaign in History.
Speaker 2: It's really an inside look at what was happening, primarily
Speaker 2: in the final year or so of the Biden administration
Speaker 2: and why despite all indications, or some indications to some people,
Speaker 2: not to everyone. He stayed in the race so long
Speaker 2: and gave Kamala Harris only one hundred and seven days,
Speaker 2: I think, to wage her campaign against Donald Trump. It's
Speaker 2: full of intrigue. It's really a fascinating read, not only
Speaker 2: about the Biden administration and the inner circle, if you will,
Speaker 2: but also what was going on in the Trump campaign.
Speaker 2: If you're a political junkie, or if you're just wondering
Speaker 2: how we got into the mess we're in right now,
Speaker 2: this is a mustage read. Chris Whipple, Great to see you,
Speaker 2: Welcome to next question.
Speaker 1: Great to be with you.
Speaker 2: So I found this book so fascinating. I felt like
Speaker 2: a true fly on the wall when it came to
Speaker 2: the inner workings of not only the Biden administration, but
Speaker 2: also the Trump campaign at various points, as well as
Speaker 2: the Trump presidency. But I want to start by asking
Speaker 2: you about Joe Biden's inner circles desire to limit his
Speaker 2: exposure to the public and the press leading up to
Speaker 2: the twenty twenty four campaign. You describe it as stranger
Speaker 2: and way more troubling than a cover up. Can you
Speaker 2: explain to us this idea and help us understand what
Speaker 2: was actually going on behind the scenes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Katie, first of all, it's great to
Speaker 1: be with you. Thanks for having me. It was the
Speaker 1: wildest campaign in history, as we all know just living
Speaker 1: through it, but even wilder behind closed doors, where I
Speaker 1: was able to go thanks to you pretty unique access
Speaker 1: to the inner circles of Biden and Trump and Kamala
Speaker 1: Harris's top advisors as well. It was to me it
Speaker 1: was stranger and wilder and more tragic than a classic
Speaker 1: cover up. I mean, we think when we think of
Speaker 1: cover up in a Watergate sense, it's something that you
Speaker 1: know to be true and you're hiding from the public.
Speaker 1: What was different about this situation is that Joe Biden's
Speaker 1: inner circle and I was able to spend time with
Speaker 1: all of them, virtually all of them. They most of
Speaker 1: them convinced themselves that Biden should run for reelection, that
Speaker 1: he could win the election, and that he could govern
Speaker 1: for another four years. Now, you know, anybody who's had
Speaker 1: to take the keys away from an octagenarian grandfather the
Speaker 1: car keys knows that Biden was really too old to
Speaker 1: run for reelection, but they didn't believe it, and I'm
Speaker 1: talking now about that Mike Donell on his alter ego,
Speaker 1: Bruce Reid, Steve Roschetti, Ron Klain, who's a major player
Speaker 1: in my book. As you know, Anita Done, Anita Done.
Speaker 1: They believed what they believed instead of their lying eyes.
Speaker 2: Well, we'll talk about their motives later. But Obama's former
Speaker 2: chief of Staff Bill Daily described the situation a bit
Speaker 2: more bluntly. He said, every freaking one of them had
Speaker 2: no balls. Do you agree?
Speaker 1: You know, it was a failure of leadership, as leon
Speaker 1: Panetta put it to me too. And he's one of
Speaker 1: the people I talked to about this. I love Daily
Speaker 1: because he's a truth teller, the no filter. He just
Speaker 1: tells you exactly what he's thinking. In this case, he
Speaker 1: was referring not only to Biden's inner circle, but I
Speaker 1: think principally he was referring to Democrats who failed to
Speaker 1: step up and challenge Biden for the nomination. Those were
Speaker 1: the ones who he said had no freaking balls. But
Speaker 1: he also agrees that. You know, when I talked to
Speaker 1: him about Biden's inner circle, I said, how is it
Speaker 1: possible they knew what you were seeing? You couldn't unsee
Speaker 1: Biden's debate performance that disaster on June twenty seventh. Why
Speaker 1: did they do it? And Daily's best answer was, Look,
Speaker 1: you're in the bubble. You've crossed the rubicon. There's no
Speaker 1: going back. There is a kind of gravitational force when
Speaker 1: you're in that inner circle at the highest levels of
Speaker 1: power that is very seductive.
Speaker 2: The book opens at former President of Biden's debate prep
Speaker 2: session at Camp David. It was just days before that
Speaker 2: first presidential debate. Ron Klain, who was the former chiefs
Speaker 2: of staff who was leading his debate prep, told you
Speaker 2: that Biden was pretty clueless about the administration's positions on
Speaker 2: a number of key issues like inflation. He didn't know
Speaker 2: what Trump had been saying. In other words, he really
Speaker 2: wasn't up to speed on not only what was going
Speaker 2: on in the country, but his own administration's positions. Can
Speaker 2: you set the scene for us and tell us about
Speaker 2: ron Klain's horror at this realization.
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, ron Klain, who was a really effective
Speaker 1: White House chief of staff in my view, and I
Speaker 1: know something about the history of White House chiefs for
Speaker 1: the first two years, painted this devastating portrait of Biden
Speaker 1: at Camp David. In the days immediately receding that fateful debate,
Speaker 1: Biden was out of it. Clane was startled. He'd never
Speaker 1: seen him so exhausted and and out of touch. He
Speaker 1: didn't appear to be aware of what was going on,
Speaker 1: and in the campaign he said v Trump. At one point,
Speaker 1: he wanders out of Aspen Lodge the presidential cabin, goes
Speaker 1: to the pool, collapses into an armchair and falls sound
Speaker 1: to sleep, which is in the middle of a session
Speaker 1: they were having. Claian allured him back that night and
Speaker 1: they continued, but he really couldn't articulate what he wanted
Speaker 1: to do in a second term. And this was fascinating me.
Speaker 1: He was obsessed with foreign leaders and what foreign leaders
Speaker 1: thought of him. At one point Clane said, half jokingly,
Speaker 1: I wondered if he thought he was president of NATO
Speaker 1: instead of President of the US. He was obsessed with Macron,
Speaker 1: e Manuel Macrone of France and Olaf Schultz of Germany.
Speaker 1: And he said, well, they think I'm a great president,
Speaker 1: I must be a great president. I could go on
Speaker 1: and on, but at another point Biden said I've got
Speaker 1: an idea, and Clain said, what's that? If I looked
Speaker 1: perplexed on camera during the debate, people will think Trump's
Speaker 1: an idiot, to which Klan replied, Sir, if you look perplexed,
Speaker 1: people are just going to think you're perplexed, and that's
Speaker 1: our problem in this race.
Speaker 2: It's just unbelievable to me that Ron Klain saw this,
Speaker 2: he knew there was trouble, and yet he never tried
Speaker 2: to convince Joe Biden to drop out of the race.
Speaker 2: How do you understand that disconnect?
Speaker 1: That's why I say that this is stranger and wilder
Speaker 1: and more tragic than a cover up, and assess it's
Speaker 1: really hard to reconcile the two round Klans in my book.
Speaker 1: I mean, the first is the politically savvy former White
Speaker 1: House chief of staff who's been around the block and
Speaker 1: had prepared eight presidential candidates counta over his career, who
Speaker 1: saw just how wobbly and out of it Joe Biden
Speaker 1: was during the debate prep. How do you reconcile that
Speaker 1: with the Ron Klain, who, a month later, in the
Speaker 1: final days and final hours of Biden's being on the ticket,
Speaker 1: bought a battle to save his reelection to keep him
Speaker 1: on the ticket, believed that this wasn't, as Ron put
Speaker 1: it to me, it wasn't about Biden's age. It was
Speaker 1: a power grab by the elites, by the donors and
Speaker 1: the conservative wing of the party. Ron Klain believed that.
Speaker 1: I think he and the other advisers, other advisors had
Speaker 1: different reasons. I mean, that wasn't a universal take. Claim.
Speaker 1: Believed that somehow, if Joe Biden could rally the progressives
Speaker 1: in the party and have them all walk out of
Speaker 1: the White House and lawn with him, that he could
Speaker 1: salvage his reelection, his place at the top of the ticket,
Speaker 1: and win reelection evidently governed for another four years. It's
Speaker 1: hard to reconcile the politically smart, savvy Ron Klain with
Speaker 1: the guy who fought that battle right up until the
Speaker 1: eleventh power.
Speaker 2: It's also hard to square this notion that Joe Biden
Speaker 2: could have endured the rigors of a campaign. You know,
Speaker 2: you write about the race. In twenty twenty they had
Speaker 2: a reason to keep Joe Biden from traveling, from making
Speaker 2: a lot of public appearances, and that was COVID. But
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four obviously was a whole different ballgame. And
Speaker 2: it sounds to me like even in twenty twenty. He
Speaker 2: might not have withstood the exhaustion of a campaign, but
Speaker 2: clearly he was in better shape then than he was
Speaker 2: in twenty four.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Biden's campaign team knew that they caught a break
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty in the form of COVID, because they
Speaker 1: could blame it on COVID. They could have Biden campaign
Speaker 1: from his basement and have already excuse for that. And
Speaker 1: there's an extraordinary scene in the book in which a
Speaker 1: campaign operative from the twenty twenty campaign comes and interviews
Speaker 1: for a top position in the twenty twenty four campaign.
Speaker 1: She's in the oval office with Biden and his top
Speaker 1: advisors and it takes this unexpectedly candid turn when one
Speaker 1: of them says to this applicant, this operative, listen, you know,
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty we had COVID. We had a great
Speaker 1: excuse to keep them in the basement. What do we
Speaker 1: do now? Look, they knew they had a problem with Biden.
Speaker 1: They knew that he was a shadow of himself on
Speaker 1: the stump and had been for a long time, that
Speaker 1: he couldn't really do a traditional barnstorming campaign. I think
Speaker 1: the key distinction here is that some of those same
Speaker 1: people believe he could govern, He just couldn't campaign.
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Speaker 2: want to get back to that catastrophic debate performance for
Speaker 2: a moment, because that was I think a wake up
Speaker 2: call where everyone there was a collective gas when Joe
Speaker 2: Biden could not really articulate his views and kind of
Speaker 2: that's when he said about, you know, saving Medicare, which
Speaker 2: had nothing to do with the question.
Speaker 3: We have one thousand trillionaires in America, I mean billionaires
Speaker 3: in America, and what's happening. They're in a situation where
Speaker 3: they in fact pay eight point two percent in taxes.
Speaker 3: If they just paid twenty four or twenty five percent,
Speaker 3: either one of those numbers, they'd raised five hundred million
Speaker 3: dollars billion dollars. I should say in a ten year period,
Speaker 3: we'd be able to write wipe out his debt. We'd
Speaker 3: be able to help make sure that all those things
Speaker 3: we need to do, childcare, elder care, making sure that
Speaker 3: we continue to suppreent strength in our healthcare system, making
Speaker 3: sure that we're able to make every single solitary person
Speaker 3: eligible for what I've been able to do with the
Speaker 3: with the COVID, I was could be with dealing with
Speaker 3: everything we have to do with Look if we finally
Speaker 3: beat medicare.
Speaker 1: Thank you, President Biden, President Trump.
Speaker 2: I was surprised that, even after that debate performance, his
Speaker 2: inner circle defended it, and Anita Dunn even told people
Speaker 2: that Joe Biden had won the debate. How could she
Speaker 2: think that in a million years, Chris completely delusional.
Speaker 1: I think that it's hard to explain, but you are right.
Speaker 1: Everybody was shocked by that meltdown or or whatever it
Speaker 1: was that Biden suffered during that debate, except his inner circle.
Speaker 1: They were still all in. And Anita Dunn, for example,
Speaker 1: was watching a dial a so called dial group, a
Speaker 1: focused group of undecided voters who were turning a dial
Speaker 1: one way or the other, up or down, registering their
Speaker 1: reaction in real time, she convinced herself that because the
Speaker 1: dials were turning down on the rest of the debate
Speaker 1: when Trump was being outrageous, that somehow Biden had won
Speaker 1: the debate, that they'd come out ahead. And you know
Speaker 1: what other advisors said, this was just a quote unquote
Speaker 1: bad night.
Speaker 2: Right. People said he had a cold, right.
Speaker 1: They said he was exhausted, They and they, but they
Speaker 1: literally said it was just a bad night. In other words,
Speaker 1: like Barack Obama's first debate against Mitt Romney, which was
Speaker 1: not great, but nothing like this complete moment of when
Speaker 1: when Biden lost it. It's it's a mystery, and that's
Speaker 1: what makes I think the story so fascinating to me.
Speaker 1: It's a study of you know, it's a at the
Speaker 1: heart of it is this question which readers can try
Speaker 1: to answer for themselves. But I invited me to pick
Speaker 1: up the book and read ron Clan's description his words,
Speaker 1: not mine, of Joe Biden during that debate prep and
Speaker 1: ask themselves how that guy could believe that he could
Speaker 1: run for reelection and win.
Speaker 2: Was it the desire of this inner circle to stay
Speaker 2: in power? I know, during this whole chapter, people would
Speaker 2: point to Jill Biden and say, oh, it was Jill
Speaker 2: Biden's fault. You know, they portrayed her as kind of
Speaker 2: a lady Macbeth, ambitious in her own right. But after
Speaker 2: writing this, after talking to all these people, did you
Speaker 2: come to any conclusion? Was it different for every person?
Speaker 2: For Ron Klain, was it just this loyalty that couldn't
Speaker 2: be shaken for others? Was it their desire to stay
Speaker 2: empowered themselves? What was it?
Speaker 1: Well? I think there's loyalty, There's no question about it.
Speaker 1: You could argue, if you're cynical, that it's a power grab,
Speaker 1: that these guys the power derived from being in office
Speaker 1: with Joe Biden. I think that's not quite That doesn't
Speaker 1: quite answer it. Because if you talk to these guys
Speaker 1: as I did, and including months after the debate, months
Speaker 1: after Biden Withdrew, you came away I did. They were
Speaker 1: in this fog of delusion, and Deny really convinced some
Speaker 1: of them. I'm talking about Mike donald and Steve Erschetti,
Speaker 1: Bruce Reid convinced that Biden would have won that re election.
Speaker 1: You know, months later, Mike donaldan was at Harvard at
Speaker 1: the Kennedy School speaking to an audience and said he
Speaker 1: thought the party had lost its mind. It walked away
Speaker 1: from a guy who won eighty one million votes, the
Speaker 1: greatest vote getter in American history. So there is my
Speaker 1: friend Jack Watson, who is Jimmy Carter's last white best
Speaker 1: chief of staff, who should have been chief of staff
Speaker 1: on day one. What's told me that there's a kind
Speaker 1: of almost magnetic force field when you're in that rarefied
Speaker 1: air of the White House and the Oval Office. It's
Speaker 1: an extraordinary compulsion to protect the president at all costs.
Speaker 1: And I think they lost their judgment here. I mean
Speaker 1: they were delusional. These are guys who you would think.
Speaker 1: I'll give you a quick example of how you know.
Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty eight, one of the President's close friends,
Speaker 1: Ted Kauffman, perhaps his closest friends. When Biden was ensnared
Speaker 1: in that plagiarism scandal, was Kaufman who said, you know what, Joe,
Speaker 1: it's time. It's over. That never happened, That never happened
Speaker 1: this time around. And I don't know why not. They
Speaker 1: were clear eyed veterans who lost their way.
Speaker 2: You had an inkling that this was a foot when
Speaker 2: you were writing your first book called The Fight of
Speaker 2: His Life. And I know that you asked to interview
Speaker 2: Joe Biden, and this was in September twenty twenty two,
Speaker 2: and this was about the first two years of his
Speaker 2: presidency or first book on Biden, and they would only
Speaker 2: let you interview him if you submitted the questions in
Speaker 2: writing and he would respond in writing. So did you
Speaker 2: not even interview Joe Biden for that book?
Speaker 1: I did. I interviewed him by email. I sent eight
Speaker 1: questions in by email. I think it was eight. I
Speaker 1: got replies back. They were obviously replies that were I
Speaker 1: presume closely scrutinized by Ron Klain and maybe Anita Done,
Speaker 1: who knows who else before they sent them back to me.
Speaker 2: And who knows if he actually answered them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm pretty sure he answered them, because I was
Speaker 1: talking to Ron Clay in real time and he was
Speaker 1: describing meetings where he was going, come on, boss, you
Speaker 1: got to do these, and so I'm pretty I'm convinced
Speaker 1: they were his answers, but they were presumably cleaned up.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's unfair, but that's I presume.
Speaker 2: I wanted to share an interesting story that happened to me, Chris,
Speaker 2: when Joe Biden had yet to drop out of the
Speaker 2: race for the twenty twenty four campaign. I saw him
Speaker 2: at an event where there were a lot of stand
Speaker 2: up to cancer supporters and I was invited, and I
Speaker 2: had never gone to a fundraiser, and I was interested
Speaker 2: in being an observer. And he did as he would
Speaker 2: do in all these different events, including super casual events
Speaker 2: like the Irish event you talked about, where he had
Speaker 2: Irish politicians or politicians of Irish descent come to the
Speaker 2: White House. He used to tell a prompter. He didn't
Speaker 2: answer any questions. But he saw me, and I've known
Speaker 2: him for decades and he said I miss you. And
Speaker 2: I said, well, if you want to spend more time
Speaker 2: with me, why don't you do an interview with me
Speaker 2: and we can make up for lost time. And he
Speaker 2: said I'd love that. After he was done giving the
Speaker 2: short speech to funders, he leaned over to me again
Speaker 2: and said, I really want to do an interview with you.
Speaker 2: So then I approached his press people. They then told
Speaker 2: me to call and I got the run around like
Speaker 2: there was no tomorrow. I got relegated to some guy
Speaker 2: who did was in charge of digital interviews because it
Speaker 2: was for online and a podcast and I asked, I wrote,
Speaker 2: Anita done personally, and I was very much stonewalled. And
Speaker 2: now reading your book, and obviously with the benefit of hindsight,
Speaker 2: I see why. And you write that he never did
Speaker 2: interviews with the New York Times or the Washington Post.
Speaker 2: Didn't he hold fewer press conferences than any president and history?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I believe that's correct.
Speaker 2: So do you think the White House Press Corps and
Speaker 2: the media writ large should have been making more noise
Speaker 2: about this?
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, you used the perfect word stonewalled
Speaker 1: when describing the Biden Whitehouse us of VI the media.
Speaker 1: I really found it to be Nixonian in its contempt.
Speaker 1: Is too strong a word for the press, the White
Speaker 1: House Press Corps. If you dared to suggest that Biden's
Speaker 1: age was an issue, they went after you. If you
Speaker 1: dared to write an op bed that suggested that everything
Speaker 1: wasn't perfect, they would, they would close you down. And
Speaker 1: and I think it. I think it came from Anita Dunne.
Speaker 1: I think this was her. I mean, I think she
Speaker 1: was a much more powerful figure in the Biden White
Speaker 1: House than we realized at the time. So I would
Speaker 1: my guess, Katie, I mean my hunch is that Biden
Speaker 1: would have done that sit down with you and that done,
Speaker 1: and the and the communications team shut that down in
Speaker 1: a heartbeat and said, no, you know, you will not
Speaker 1: be doing that. But that's that's the way this White
Speaker 1: House operated.
Speaker 2: It is confounding that after the debate, I know Valerie
Speaker 2: Biden was absolutely apoplectic. She was his long time like,
Speaker 2: how come Valerie Biden didn't see the writing on the wall,
Speaker 2: Chris Well.
Speaker 1: So here's here's the thing. And this is why I
Speaker 1: say that this is different from a quote unquote cover
Speaker 1: up in the classic sense. There were some inconvenient truths
Speaker 1: to that theory, and one of them is the fact
Speaker 1: that behind closed doors, more often than not, Joe Biden
Speaker 1: governed capably. He was fine. I can tell you innumerable
Speaker 1: people senators who came and met with him about Middle
Speaker 1: Eastern policy who said he was on top of every
Speaker 1: I and T, crossing every tee and knew it cold
Speaker 1: and could articulate it very clearly. On the morning that
Speaker 1: his senior advisors that fateful weekend of July twenty twenty one,
Speaker 1: when his advisors came to hammer out the abdication statement
Speaker 1: that morning, Biden was on the phone parsing the details
Speaker 1: of one of the most complicated prisoner swaps in history,
Speaker 1: multi nation deal. Mike Donalon, who is a senior advisor
Speaker 1: maybe closest political advisor is alter Ego, swears up and
Speaker 1: down that he never saw Joe Biden mentally diminished, said
Speaker 1: he never saw period. Now is he lying maybe? Is
Speaker 1: he delusional? Maybe? But that's his story and it's hard
Speaker 1: to You can't just wish these inconvenient things away. In
Speaker 1: arguing that it's a classic cover up, I don't think
Speaker 1: it was.
Speaker 2: I also think this is a very sensitive matter, as
Speaker 2: you described earlier, Chris. You know, when you have to
Speaker 2: handle taking the car keys away from an elderly parent,
Speaker 2: it is such an emotional situation, right, and you're dealing
Speaker 2: with someone who's aging, and you don't I think you're
Speaker 2: aware that you don't want to be agist, that you
Speaker 2: don't want to accuse someone of losing their faculties. I mean,
Speaker 2: the whole thing is just so fraught, and I think
Speaker 2: this was a microcosm of conversations that are had every
Speaker 2: day around the dinner table or the living room sofa
Speaker 2: when you have to talk to an aging parent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so no question about it exponentially magnified by the
Speaker 1: stakes involved, not just power for the people around Biden,
Speaker 1: but the future of the country and the fate of
Speaker 1: the world. I mean, I'm not exaggerating. I mean those
Speaker 1: are the stakes here. Joe Biden's legacy, the Democratic Party's future,
Speaker 1: the result of the twenty twenty four election, and the
Speaker 1: fate of the country and the world. Put all those
Speaker 1: things together, and that's tougher than taking the car keys.
Speaker 2: You also write about the complicated relationship Joe Biden had
Speaker 2: with Barack Obama. I thought that was a really interesting thing.
Speaker 2: I'd obviously read about this and heard about it through
Speaker 2: the years, But Joe Biden really never forgave Barack Obama
Speaker 2: for putting his support behind Hillary Clinton in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 2: before Joe Biden had truly had the time after the
Speaker 2: death of his son Bo from brain cancer to make
Speaker 2: a decision about whether he was in or whether he
Speaker 2: was out. Is that accurate?
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely true. Biden never forgave Barack Obama for that,
Speaker 1: for putting his thumb on the scale for Hillary. And
Speaker 1: it's a complicated relationship. On the one hand, they had
Speaker 1: a genuine bond before Bo's death, actually, when Barack Obama
Speaker 1: offered to pay for Bo's treatment and whatever he needed,
Speaker 1: Obama was going to help out. They became very close,
Speaker 1: but then again he could. He never forgave him for
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. And in the end, this is why the
Speaker 1: story is so Shakespearean, because it's full of betrayals, and
Speaker 1: one of them was Joe Biden's belief that Barack Obama
Speaker 1: betrayed him, that he was working behind the scenes to
Speaker 1: force him out. And the thing that one of Joe
Speaker 1: Biden's closest friends told me that the thing that really
Speaker 1: got to Biden was not so much George Clooney writing
Speaker 1: a brutal op ed in the New York Times, maybe
Speaker 1: with Obama's complicit consent, but it was the fact that
Speaker 1: in the end, when the walls were closing in, Barack
Speaker 1: Obama never picked up the phone and called Joe and said, hey, Joe, listen,
Speaker 1: you sure you're up to this? He never If he
Speaker 1: had reservations, he never shared them with Joe.
Speaker 2: Why do you think that was? Because if they did
Speaker 2: have some kind of friendship, and if Barack Obama cared
Speaker 2: about the future of the Democratic Party, I think he
Speaker 2: would take a more active role in at least questioning
Speaker 2: Joe Biden's decision.
Speaker 1: Well, my only the best guess I can give you
Speaker 1: on that, Katie, is that there was this tension, this
Speaker 1: conflict between the Biden and Obama camps, and perhaps Obama
Speaker 1: felt that it would be counterproductive that the best way
Speaker 1: to ensure that Biden stayed in the race might be
Speaker 1: Obama telling him to get out. That, you know, that
Speaker 1: might have been the thinking involved.
Speaker 2: Yeah. You write about how the Obama team never understood
Speaker 2: Joe Biden's appeal and that they didn't find him to
Speaker 2: be very sophisticated, which I felt was ironic given the
Speaker 2: fact that the Democratic Party has lost its hold on
Speaker 2: working class voters. And that was obviously one of Joe
Speaker 2: Biden's big strong suits, the guy from Scranton, Pennsylvania, who
Speaker 2: could talk to the average working Joe literally, and yet
Speaker 2: people in the Obama camp didn't seem to appreciate that
Speaker 2: and kind of we're condescending in a way that working
Speaker 2: class voters have felt the Democratic Party had become in general.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, well, yeah, they looked down their noses at
Speaker 1: Joe scrant and Joe they didn't think he had it
Speaker 1: and at one point, David Pluff was dispatched to go
Speaker 1: talk to Biden. This was around the time of the
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen race, and Pluff sat down with Biden and
Speaker 1: said to him, Joe, you don't want to end your
Speaker 1: career in an Iowa hotel room, do you. And Biden
Speaker 1: was just furious about this, and as one of his
Speaker 1: aides said to me, he hates the Davids, The Davids
Speaker 1: being plus An.
Speaker 2: Axel Rod interesting and David Axelrod was pretty vocal about
Speaker 2: his thoughts at Joe Biden should bow out. Finally, it
Speaker 2: was Nancy Pelosi who, really, I guess, put the nail
Speaker 2: in the coffin. If you will tell us about what
Speaker 2: you know about that conversation when she spoke to Biden
Speaker 2: face to face and basically delivered the tough language and
Speaker 2: the tough words that it was time to take away
Speaker 2: the car keys or give up his run for reelection
Speaker 2: in this case.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a story that I report for the first
Speaker 1: time in Uncharted. The previous reporting had suggested that this
Speaker 1: was a phone call that Pelosi had had with Biden.
Speaker 1: What I learned was that she went and she had
Speaker 1: this clandestine meeting with Joe Biden. She went to the
Speaker 1: White House, not to the Oval Office where she might
Speaker 1: be seen, but they arranged to meet in the residents.
Speaker 1: It was July eleven, was the day the same day,
Speaker 1: coincidentally that Nancy Pelosi went on Morning Joe and was
Speaker 1: asked by Jonathan whether Biden should run again, and she said, oh,
Speaker 1: it worth the effect of it's his decision. We're waiting
Speaker 1: for him to decide. After Biden had already made it clear,
Speaker 1: emphatically clear that he was running, so she and she
Speaker 1: masterfully put the ball back in his court, knowing that
Speaker 1: the pressure was going to be overwhelming for him eventually
Speaker 1: to step aside. But later that day she went to
Speaker 1: the White House and met privately, she said to a friend,
Speaker 1: because nobody would confirm this meeting until Jeff Snipes finally
Speaker 1: reluctantly confirmed it to me. She said, we had a
Speaker 1: long talk about America, and in her inimitable way, she
Speaker 1: went down memory Lane with the President. They talked about history,
Speaker 1: they talked about their shared Catholic faith. They talked about
Speaker 1: all kinds of things, and she said, not in a
Speaker 1: boasting way, but she said to a friend, l thereafter,
Speaker 1: I'm the only one who could have sent that message.
Speaker 1: He trusts me, and she left without any kind of
Speaker 1: Biden was still digging in, but she left thinking that
Speaker 1: she'd gotten through to him. And it was ten days later.
Speaker 1: It took another long ten days, and I tell the
Speaker 1: whole story of the drama of those ten days before
Speaker 1: Biden ultimately stepped aside.
Speaker 2: If you want to get smarter every morning with a
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Speaker 2: wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. I
Speaker 2: thought that Kamala Harris handled this uncertain chapter really well
Speaker 2: because she did have to walk a delicate type robe.
Speaker 2: You right, the vice president was navigating a political mindfield.
Speaker 2: The slightest misstep, any hint that she was plotting to
Speaker 2: replace the president could have been politically fatal. But while
Speaker 2: Harris was lying low, her political operation was working behind
Speaker 2: the scenes. Her chief of staff, Lorraine Bowles, had been
Speaker 2: thinking about a contingency like this since November nineteenth, twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one. And that was, by the way, when President Biden,
Speaker 2: under Section three of the twenty fifth Amendment, had voluntarily
Speaker 2: transferred his powers and duties to Harris while he underwent
Speaker 2: a kolonoscopy. Gay glad he got his colonoscopy. But what
Speaker 2: do you make of Kamala Harris's ability to continue to
Speaker 2: support the president. She obviously knew what was going on.
Speaker 2: I'm assuming she insisted that he was all there, that
Speaker 2: he was fully capable, fully functioning, and yet she knew
Speaker 2: that if anything to happen, there was a good chance
Speaker 2: that she would step in his place.
Speaker 1: Well, as I as I wrote, as you quoted from
Speaker 1: the book, she was really treading through a minefield. She
Speaker 1: had to be. She had no choice other than to
Speaker 1: be completely one hundred percent supportive. She had to be
Speaker 1: Caesar's wife, you know, during this whole walk up to
Speaker 1: the decision that he made. But she was clear eyed
Speaker 1: enough to know that that day might be coming. She
Speaker 1: didn't know when it would happen, and on July twenty first,
Speaker 1: when she did get the phone call, she was ready.
Speaker 1: They had a whole team that sprang into action around
Speaker 1: the dining room table at the Naval Observatory, working the phones,
Speaker 1: the laptops, reaching out to everybody across the country. They'd
Speaker 1: already had operatives out very carefully and quietly with who
Speaker 1: could not be traced to Kamala Harris. They were already
Speaker 1: out there and they checked out the rules and you
Speaker 1: know where the money would go and all the rest
Speaker 1: of it. And they also were pressuring some Democratic senators
Speaker 1: to turn on bite. But the result of all that
Speaker 1: is that when that phone call came, when she was
Speaker 1: standing in the kitchen of the Naval observatory on twenty
Speaker 1: first of July, they were ready to go, and it
Speaker 1: was a tour to force that. In the next forty
Speaker 1: eight hours, she really nailed down the nomination.
Speaker 2: I thought she did an incredible job. And of course,
Speaker 2: during that period of the campaign, everyone was saying this
Speaker 2: was the Trump campaign's nightmare. They wanted Donald Trump to
Speaker 2: run against Joe Biden, and they didn't want a more
Speaker 2: capable candidate.
Speaker 1: Trump was furious and he thought it was a coup.
Speaker 1: He thought he was being cheated. He said to Paul Manafort.
Speaker 1: It was another strange story in this book. He said
Speaker 1: to Paul Manifort, his disgraced ex campaign chief, who was
Speaker 1: working with him again. He said, oh, so now I
Speaker 1: have to win the election three times. The first time
Speaker 1: in his mind was beating Biden. The second was beating
Speaker 1: the courts. The third was now I have to beat her, and.
Speaker 2: She was a formidable candidate initially. Do you think if
Speaker 2: there had been the so called many primary, which a
Speaker 2: lot of people wondered if there was even time for
Speaker 2: that at that point in the campaign, would have been
Speaker 2: better and people would have felt more I guess invested
Speaker 2: in the Democratic nominee.
Speaker 1: So I think the only question, Katie is would the
Speaker 1: Democrats have been better off a year earlier or maybe
Speaker 1: two years earlier, when there would have been time for
Speaker 1: a real competition and a real Democratic primary. It was
Speaker 1: too late in July of twenty twenty four. It was
Speaker 1: impossible and to have a so called mini primary, and
Speaker 1: if you looked at the rules, and I was told
Speaker 1: by people high up in the DNC who understand this stuff,
Speaker 1: that it couldn't have been done. It was just impossible.
Speaker 1: The money was all going to Harris, to the person
Speaker 1: on the It wasn't really conceivable to have a mini primary.
Speaker 1: So the real question is why didn't Joe Biden step
Speaker 1: aside a year earlier or.
Speaker 2: Two right, And then we get back to the beginning
Speaker 2: of our conversation about it being hard to give up power,
Speaker 2: not only for his inner circle, but for Joe Biden himself.
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you, also, Chris, about Kamala Harris's
Speaker 2: navigation of praising her administration but also separating herself from it. Famously,
Speaker 2: she was asked on the view a question that I
Speaker 2: think haunted her throughout the campaign.
Speaker 1: Would you have done something differently than President Biden during
Speaker 1: the past four years? There is done a thing that
Speaker 1: comes to mind in terms of and I've been a
Speaker 1: part of most of the decisions that have had impact.
Speaker 2: You write that Joe Biden had even given her permission
Speaker 2: to be basically differentiate herself as a candidate. On the
Speaker 2: other hand, that is so tricky, Chris. I feel for
Speaker 2: her because she can't shed all over the Biden administration
Speaker 2: of which she was a part without looking like a turncoat.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think it was very difficult for
Speaker 2: her to pick places where she could have differentiated herself.
Speaker 2: I guess she could have said, in retrospect, we could
Speaker 2: have done more on the border, right, But it's really
Speaker 2: hard because anything she says is going to be twisted
Speaker 2: and is going to be taken by the opposition as
Speaker 2: being disloyal or criticizing the very deministration she was a
Speaker 2: part of.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, nobody said it would be easy. But think
Speaker 1: of again, I think I was right before Joe Biden
Speaker 1: dropped out. I was writing a different book about presidential
Speaker 1: campaign managers through history, and I was looking at the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight race and Hubert Humphrey broke with Lyndon
Speaker 1: Johnson famously late in the campaign. It was in October
Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty eight, and he almost caught Richard Nixon
Speaker 1: in an election that he lost by Harris Breath. But
Speaker 1: it was a real surge. And I think that she
Speaker 1: could have done something like that, But nobody's saying it
Speaker 1: would have been easy. The irony here is that not
Speaker 1: only was she prepared to answer that question on the
Speaker 1: view seven Ways to Sunday because they knew it was coming,
Speaker 1: but Lorraine Voles, her chief of staff, and General Maley
Speaker 1: Dillan had gone to the White House and met with
Speaker 1: Jeff Zience, the chief of Staff, and they were going
Speaker 1: in effect for permission to separate themselves from Biden, and
Speaker 1: Zience and others told him, do what you have to do,
Speaker 1: we get it, we understand, and Biden personally called Kamala
Speaker 1: Harris and said, hey, go for it. If you have
Speaker 1: to do it, you have to do it. And I'm paraphrasing,
Speaker 1: I don't write she couldn't do it. And I'm told
Speaker 1: by the people who know her well that what it
Speaker 1: came down to was loyalty. That she couldn't throw Joe
Speaker 1: Biden under the bus. So she couldn't. And what she said,
Speaker 1: of course, was I can't think of a single thing
Speaker 1: that she would have done differently, and it was devastating.
Speaker 1: Within hours, the Trump campaign had a commercial with that
Speaker 1: sound in it, and it was it was the death
Speaker 1: knell for a change campaign. You know, somebody, if you
Speaker 1: if you're trying to run on change, you can't give
Speaker 1: that answer.
Speaker 2: What should she have said?
Speaker 1: Well, that's why they paid They don't pay me the
Speaker 1: big buck. But I think she probably could have said
Speaker 1: something to the effect of, you know, look, we've done
Speaker 1: a B, C, and D, but you know what, we
Speaker 1: blew it on inflation, and here's what I'm going to do.
Speaker 1: I think it was probably too late for her to
Speaker 1: convince anyone that she was going to be tough on
Speaker 1: the border. That was probably a lost cause. But if
Speaker 1: you had to choose one thing. In my view, it
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been Gaza, it would have been inflation.
Speaker 2: But how much could they have really controlled inflation and fairness? Maybe?
Speaker 2: I don't know. My mom used to say the president
Speaker 2: doesn't make the economy. The economy makes the president.
Speaker 1: No, that's true, except when they're destroying the economy of
Speaker 1: course with TIFFs. But anyway, I mean I think that No,
Speaker 1: you have to be caught trying, I think is the
Speaker 1: point at the end of the day. Even if even
Speaker 1: if you and I know that there's very little the
Speaker 1: president can do about that, you have to be caught trying.
Speaker 2: In addition to talking a lot about obviously the Biden
Speaker 2: presidency and campaign, Chris, you also focus on Donald Trump,
Speaker 2: the first administration and his twenty twenty four campaign chairs,
Speaker 2: Susie Wiles and Chris la Sevida. I had forgot that
Speaker 2: Chris los Sevita was the architect of the swift boat
Speaker 2: campaign against John Kerry. Can you remind people what that
Speaker 2: was all about?
Speaker 1: Yeah? This was the This was Chris los Avita's claim
Speaker 1: to fame, this devastating ad campaign that he launched against
Speaker 1: John Kerrey in two thousand and four. Carrie of course,
Speaker 1: was the Democratic nominee who went to the convention and
Speaker 1: said reporting for duty, he was running on his military record,
Speaker 1: and las Avita, by rounding up people in the military
Speaker 1: at the time who didn't like John Kerrey, managed to
Speaker 1: turn it into a strike against him. They also they
Speaker 1: all disputed Carrie's claims that he was, you know, of
Speaker 1: his exploits in Vietnam as captain of a so called
Speaker 1: swift boat. It was called the swift Boat Veterans for Truth,
Speaker 1: and it was not truthful, but extremely effective, and las
Speaker 1: Avita really became a kind of hero for having created
Speaker 1: it within the GOP. So now fast forward to the
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four campaign and suddenly there's a devastating ad
Speaker 1: campaign about transsurgery for inmates in which Kamala is captured
Speaker 1: in her own words advocating the right of prisoners to
Speaker 1: have trans surgery. And with her words it was devastating.
Speaker 1: Of course, ended with the tagline She's for they them,
Speaker 1: Trump is for you. And when that happened, I know
Speaker 1: one presidential one former winning Democratic presidential campaign manager, who
Speaker 1: said to me off the record, their inability to answer
Speaker 1: that was just crazy. Was and he called General Melli
Speaker 1: Dyllon and her gang and said, what are you doing?
Speaker 1: You got to answer this, and the reply he got was, well,
Speaker 1: there is no answer for it, so we're just going
Speaker 1: to let that go.
Speaker 2: You also write about Susie Wiles, who is such an
Speaker 2: interesting figure in politics. She's the daughter Pat Summerle, the
Speaker 2: famed sportscaster who was also an alcoholic, and that in
Speaker 2: many ways helped her navigate Trump's aggression and his erratic moods.
Speaker 2: How would you describe her relationship with Donald Trump and
Speaker 2: why do you think she's been so effective? And he
Speaker 2: clearly trusts her, right.
Speaker 1: Susie Wiles is a fascinating story, really amazing, and she
Speaker 1: has some kind of magic with Trump. He trusts her.
Speaker 1: There's never been any real worry that she would be
Speaker 1: fired by Trump, and she has a kind of magic
Speaker 1: with him. And I think part of it, without meaning
Speaker 1: to sound like an armchair psychologist, I think part of
Speaker 1: it goes back to the way she handled her alcoholic father,
Speaker 1: who was very difficult. I think she'd be the first
Speaker 1: to admit it. Children of alcoholics have a real sensitivity
Speaker 1: and a kind of a kind of antenna for what
Speaker 1: they can control and what they can't, and she has
Speaker 1: found that modus operandi with Donald Trump, which she's carried
Speaker 1: on into the White House. But of course, look, you
Speaker 1: could argue that as White House chief of staff, she
Speaker 1: should be picking, she should be telling the president her
Speaker 1: truths much more often than she might be.
Speaker 2: You also write about how you were invited to Derek
Speaker 2: Kushner's in avodka at Trump's home several times during Trump's
Speaker 2: first term, which I found fascinating. How many times did
Speaker 2: you visit with them, Chris in their home? And what
Speaker 2: do you think they really wanted to understand? I guess
Speaker 2: you're right that they wanted to understand the inner working
Speaker 2: so the White House. How I guess they could create
Speaker 2: some discipline in what they saw sort of the chaos.
Speaker 2: But what do you think they were after? What did
Speaker 2: you all talk about all the time? And how many
Speaker 2: times again did you visit them?
Speaker 1: I don't know, I would say nobody. First of all,
Speaker 1: nobody was more surprised than I to get this email
Speaker 1: from the White House from Yvonka's assistant and then being
Speaker 1: invited to their place. But I went many times, maybe
Speaker 1: more than a dozen times that I visited with them,
Speaker 1: and it was an irresisible opportunity to get some insight
Speaker 1: into the Trump White House, and I think it was different.
Speaker 1: I think in Ivanka's case, I think she was surprised
Speaker 1: and somewhat encouraged to learn that they weren't the first
Speaker 1: White House to have all kinds of all health breaking,
Speaker 1: loose and internest scene warfare and backstabbing, and I think
Speaker 1: she I think it helped her to put their experience
Speaker 1: into perspective. In Jared's case, I think he was trying
Speaker 1: to navigate this chaotic, very dangerous White House and deal
Speaker 1: with the chiefs of staff that he had to deal with,
Speaker 1: and so I think they thought they could learn something,
Speaker 1: and I thought I could learn something from them, and
Speaker 1: that I would get them eventually to go on the record,
Speaker 1: and I never really did.
Speaker 2: Why did they decide to basically kind of separate themselves
Speaker 2: from Trump World ultimately?
Speaker 1: Well, I've been told that essentially it comes down to
Speaker 1: the success that Jared has had with his company, and
Speaker 1: of course he's had a major infusion of funds from
Speaker 1: the saudiast as we all know, controversially, but he's doing
Speaker 1: quite well, thank you very much, in his business career.
Speaker 1: And I think for Evoka, I think it was a
Speaker 1: rough ride. I think the first four years or not
Speaker 1: something she's eager to repeat. It was a I think
Speaker 1: emotionally difficult period for her.
Speaker 2: Getting back to Susie Wiles, is she the only one left?
Speaker 2: You mentioned? Maybe she should be speaking out more. Maybe
Speaker 2: there is no one left, Chris who provides some of
Speaker 2: the constraints that a leader like Donald Trump needs. He
Speaker 2: got rid of all the people who challenged him in
Speaker 2: his first term. He is as unrestrained as ever, it seems,
Speaker 2: and has surrounded himself with sycophants and clearly people who
Speaker 2: were affirming and supporting everything he does and telling him
Speaker 2: basically what he wants to hear. I guess Susie Wiles
Speaker 2: isn't that person. Is there anyone at all who's trying
Speaker 2: to do that in this current White House?
Speaker 1: Very few, is my observation, although Susie Wiles claims that
Speaker 1: she's trying and that she pushes back. And you know,
Speaker 1: I've talked to her off and on and quite recently,
Speaker 1: and she is trying, she says to you know, It's interesting.
Speaker 1: She told me that one of the first people she
Speaker 1: called was Jim Baker, James A. Baker, the third, Reagan's
Speaker 1: White House chief before she took the job. Everybody does that,
Speaker 1: and Baker always tells them the same thing. Congratulations, you've
Speaker 1: got the worst blanking job in Washington. Multiply that by
Speaker 1: twenty at least in her case. So she's told me
Speaker 1: that she's pushed back on a number of major Trump initiatives.
Speaker 1: She's had some success in moderating some of Trump's decisions,
Speaker 1: and in other cases, as she put it, Ty goes
Speaker 1: to the president. So we will see.
Speaker 2: You've done a deep dive into the Democratic Party from
Speaker 2: the twenty twenty four perspective. How do you see the
Speaker 2: party digging out of this mess? Are there people who
Speaker 2: you're looking to Chris as the future stars of the
Speaker 2: Democratic Party. It seems like people are desperate, desperate for
Speaker 2: leadership or certainly someone who is standing up to Donald
Speaker 2: Trump and more than that organizing the so called resistance.
Speaker 2: Do you see anyone emerging from the pack?
Speaker 1: I don't know that I'd see anyone in particular emerging
Speaker 1: at this point, but it's a really deep bench of talent.
Speaker 1: I mean, there are really so many promising Democrats out there.
Speaker 1: But I look, I think I would disagree with my
Speaker 1: pal James Carville. I don't think the best strategy is
Speaker 1: to lie low and let the let Trump dig himself
Speaker 1: into a hole from which he can't climb out. I
Speaker 1: think it's important to be out there, and I think
Speaker 1: just look at the recent marches protests, look at Bernie
Speaker 1: Sanders and AOC and their anti oligarchy tour. I think,
Speaker 1: whatever you may think of them, they have a really clear,
Speaker 1: understandable message, and I think other Democrats are going to
Speaker 1: have to get out there and do the same thing.
Speaker 2: Well, Chris Whipple, the book is called Uncharted, How Trump
Speaker 2: beat Biden, Harris and the odds and the wildest campaign
Speaker 2: in history and now we're experiencing I think the ramifications
Speaker 2: of that campaign and that election full stop. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much for giving us the inside scoop on what
Speaker 2: was happening in both campaigns. I found it a fascinating
Speaker 2: reason and I'm so grateful you spent this time with us, Katie.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much. I'm grateful to you, great to be with.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me,
Speaker 2: a subject you want us to cover, or you want
Speaker 2: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
Speaker 2: reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would
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Speaker 2: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
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