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Speaker 1: Look, they knew they had a problem with Biden. I

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Speaker 1: think the key distinction here is that some of those

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Speaker 1: same people believe he could govern, He just couldn't campaign.

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Speaker 1: Everybody was shocked by that meltdown or or whatever it

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Speaker 1: was that Biden suffered during that debate, except his inner circle.

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Speaker 2: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is Next Question.

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Speaker 2: Hi everyone for this episode of Next Question. I'm coming

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Speaker 2: to you from my daughter and son in law's home

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Speaker 2: in Los Angeles, where I'm visiting my one year old

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Speaker 2: grandson Jay. So, if you hear a baby crying or

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Speaker 2: gurgling in the background, that is Jay. I think I

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Speaker 2: hear him now. Or if you hear a dog barking,

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Speaker 2: that is Elist and Marx Wheaton terrier Ricky. So apologies

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Speaker 2: in advance. Meanwhile, I'm super excited to talk to Chris Whipple.

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Speaker 2: He is a historian slash journalist New York Times bestselling author.

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Speaker 2: He's written a book called Uncharted, How Trump Beat Biden,

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Speaker 2: Harris and the Odds, and the Wildest Campaign in History.

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Speaker 2: It's really an inside look at what was happening, primarily

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Speaker 2: in the final year or so of the Biden administration

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Speaker 2: and why despite all indications, or some indications to some people,

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Speaker 2: not to everyone. He stayed in the race so long

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Speaker 2: and gave Kamala Harris only one hundred and seven days,

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Speaker 2: I think, to wage her campaign against Donald Trump. It's

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Speaker 2: full of intrigue. It's really a fascinating read, not only

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Speaker 2: about the Biden administration and the inner circle, if you will,

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Speaker 2: but also what was going on in the Trump campaign.

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Speaker 2: If you're a political junkie, or if you're just wondering

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Speaker 2: how we got into the mess we're in right now,

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Speaker 2: this is a mustage read. Chris Whipple, Great to see you,

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Speaker 2: Welcome to next question.

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Speaker 1: Great to be with you.

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Speaker 2: So I found this book so fascinating. I felt like

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Speaker 2: a true fly on the wall when it came to

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Speaker 2: the inner workings of not only the Biden administration, but

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Speaker 2: also the Trump campaign at various points, as well as

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Speaker 2: the Trump presidency. But I want to start by asking

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Speaker 2: you about Joe Biden's inner circles desire to limit his

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Speaker 2: exposure to the public and the press leading up to

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Speaker 2: the twenty twenty four campaign. You describe it as stranger

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Speaker 2: and way more troubling than a cover up. Can you

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Speaker 2: explain to us this idea and help us understand what

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Speaker 2: was actually going on behind the scenes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Katie, first of all, it's great to

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Speaker 1: be with you. Thanks for having me. It was the

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Speaker 1: wildest campaign in history, as we all know just living

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Speaker 1: through it, but even wilder behind closed doors, where I

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Speaker 1: was able to go thanks to you pretty unique access

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Speaker 1: to the inner circles of Biden and Trump and Kamala

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Speaker 1: Harris's top advisors as well. It was to me it

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Speaker 1: was stranger and wilder and more tragic than a classic

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Speaker 1: cover up. I mean, we think when we think of

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Speaker 1: cover up in a Watergate sense, it's something that you

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Speaker 1: know to be true and you're hiding from the public.

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Speaker 1: What was different about this situation is that Joe Biden's

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Speaker 1: inner circle and I was able to spend time with

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Speaker 1: all of them, virtually all of them. They most of

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Speaker 1: them convinced themselves that Biden should run for reelection, that

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Speaker 1: he could win the election, and that he could govern

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Speaker 1: for another four years. Now, you know, anybody who's had

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Speaker 1: to take the keys away from an octagenarian grandfather the

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Speaker 1: car keys knows that Biden was really too old to

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Speaker 1: run for reelection, but they didn't believe it, and I'm

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Speaker 1: talking now about that Mike Donell on his alter ego,

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Speaker 1: Bruce Reid, Steve Roschetti, Ron Klain, who's a major player

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Speaker 1: in my book. As you know, Anita Done, Anita Done.

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Speaker 1: They believed what they believed instead of their lying eyes.

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Speaker 2: Well, we'll talk about their motives later. But Obama's former

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Speaker 2: chief of Staff Bill Daily described the situation a bit

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Speaker 2: more bluntly. He said, every freaking one of them had

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Speaker 2: no balls. Do you agree?

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Speaker 1: You know, it was a failure of leadership, as leon

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Speaker 1: Panetta put it to me too. And he's one of

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Speaker 1: the people I talked to about this. I love Daily

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Speaker 1: because he's a truth teller, the no filter. He just

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Speaker 1: tells you exactly what he's thinking. In this case, he

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Speaker 1: was referring not only to Biden's inner circle, but I

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Speaker 1: think principally he was referring to Democrats who failed to

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Speaker 1: step up and challenge Biden for the nomination. Those were

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Speaker 1: the ones who he said had no freaking balls. But

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Speaker 1: he also agrees that. You know, when I talked to

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Speaker 1: him about Biden's inner circle, I said, how is it

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Speaker 1: possible they knew what you were seeing? You couldn't unsee

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Speaker 1: Biden's debate performance that disaster on June twenty seventh. Why

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Speaker 1: did they do it? And Daily's best answer was, Look,

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Speaker 1: you're in the bubble. You've crossed the rubicon. There's no

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Speaker 1: going back. There is a kind of gravitational force when

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Speaker 1: you're in that inner circle at the highest levels of

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Speaker 1: power that is very seductive.

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Speaker 2: The book opens at former President of Biden's debate prep

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Speaker 2: session at Camp David. It was just days before that

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Speaker 2: first presidential debate. Ron Klain, who was the former chiefs

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Speaker 2: of staff who was leading his debate prep, told you

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Speaker 2: that Biden was pretty clueless about the administration's positions on

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Speaker 2: a number of key issues like inflation. He didn't know

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Speaker 2: what Trump had been saying. In other words, he really

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Speaker 2: wasn't up to speed on not only what was going

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Speaker 2: on in the country, but his own administration's positions. Can

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Speaker 2: you set the scene for us and tell us about

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Speaker 2: ron Klain's horror at this realization.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, ron Klain, who was a really effective

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Speaker 1: White House chief of staff in my view, and I

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Speaker 1: know something about the history of White House chiefs for

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Speaker 1: the first two years, painted this devastating portrait of Biden

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Speaker 1: at Camp David. In the days immediately receding that fateful debate,

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Speaker 1: Biden was out of it. Clane was startled. He'd never

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Speaker 1: seen him so exhausted and and out of touch. He

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Speaker 1: didn't appear to be aware of what was going on,

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Speaker 1: and in the campaign he said v Trump. At one point,

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Speaker 1: he wanders out of Aspen Lodge the presidential cabin, goes

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Speaker 1: to the pool, collapses into an armchair and falls sound

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Speaker 1: to sleep, which is in the middle of a session

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Speaker 1: they were having. Claian allured him back that night and

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Speaker 1: they continued, but he really couldn't articulate what he wanted

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Speaker 1: to do in a second term. And this was fascinating me.

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Speaker 1: He was obsessed with foreign leaders and what foreign leaders

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Speaker 1: thought of him. At one point Clane said, half jokingly,

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Speaker 1: I wondered if he thought he was president of NATO

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Speaker 1: instead of President of the US. He was obsessed with Macron,

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Speaker 1: e Manuel Macrone of France and Olaf Schultz of Germany.

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Speaker 1: And he said, well, they think I'm a great president,

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Speaker 1: I must be a great president. I could go on

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Speaker 1: and on, but at another point Biden said I've got

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Speaker 1: an idea, and Clain said, what's that? If I looked

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Speaker 1: perplexed on camera during the debate, people will think Trump's

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Speaker 1: an idiot, to which Klan replied, Sir, if you look perplexed,

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Speaker 1: people are just going to think you're perplexed, and that's

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Speaker 1: our problem in this race.

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Speaker 2: It's just unbelievable to me that Ron Klain saw this,

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Speaker 2: he knew there was trouble, and yet he never tried

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Speaker 2: to convince Joe Biden to drop out of the race.

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Speaker 2: How do you understand that disconnect?

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Speaker 1: That's why I say that this is stranger and wilder

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Speaker 1: and more tragic than a cover up, and assess it's

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Speaker 1: really hard to reconcile the two round Klans in my book.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the first is the politically savvy former White

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Speaker 1: House chief of staff who's been around the block and

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Speaker 1: had prepared eight presidential candidates counta over his career, who

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Speaker 1: saw just how wobbly and out of it Joe Biden

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Speaker 1: was during the debate prep. How do you reconcile that

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Speaker 1: with the Ron Klain, who, a month later, in the

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Speaker 1: final days and final hours of Biden's being on the ticket,

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Speaker 1: bought a battle to save his reelection to keep him

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Speaker 1: on the ticket, believed that this wasn't, as Ron put

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Speaker 1: it to me, it wasn't about Biden's age. It was

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Speaker 1: a power grab by the elites, by the donors and

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Speaker 1: the conservative wing of the party. Ron Klain believed that.

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Speaker 1: I think he and the other advisers, other advisors had

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Speaker 1: different reasons. I mean, that wasn't a universal take. Claim.

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Speaker 1: Believed that somehow, if Joe Biden could rally the progressives

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Speaker 1: in the party and have them all walk out of

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Speaker 1: the White House and lawn with him, that he could

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Speaker 1: salvage his reelection, his place at the top of the ticket,

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Speaker 1: and win reelection evidently governed for another four years. It's

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Speaker 1: hard to reconcile the politically smart, savvy Ron Klain with

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Speaker 1: the guy who fought that battle right up until the

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Speaker 1: eleventh power.

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Speaker 2: It's also hard to square this notion that Joe Biden

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Speaker 2: could have endured the rigors of a campaign. You know,

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Speaker 2: you write about the race. In twenty twenty they had

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Speaker 2: a reason to keep Joe Biden from traveling, from making

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Speaker 2: a lot of public appearances, and that was COVID. But

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four obviously was a whole different ballgame. And

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Speaker 2: it sounds to me like even in twenty twenty. He

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Speaker 2: might not have withstood the exhaustion of a campaign, but

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Speaker 2: clearly he was in better shape then than he was

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Speaker 2: in twenty four.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Biden's campaign team knew that they caught a break

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty in the form of COVID, because they

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Speaker 1: could blame it on COVID. They could have Biden campaign

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Speaker 1: from his basement and have already excuse for that. And

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Speaker 1: there's an extraordinary scene in the book in which a

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Speaker 1: campaign operative from the twenty twenty campaign comes and interviews

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Speaker 1: for a top position in the twenty twenty four campaign.

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Speaker 1: She's in the oval office with Biden and his top

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Speaker 1: advisors and it takes this unexpectedly candid turn when one

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Speaker 1: of them says to this applicant, this operative, listen, you know,

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty we had COVID. We had a great

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Speaker 1: excuse to keep them in the basement. What do we

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Speaker 1: do now? Look, they knew they had a problem with Biden.

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Speaker 1: They knew that he was a shadow of himself on

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Speaker 1: the stump and had been for a long time, that

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Speaker 1: he couldn't really do a traditional barnstorming campaign. I think

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Speaker 1: the key distinction here is that some of those same

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Speaker 1: people believe he could govern, He just couldn't campaign.

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Speaker 2: What if we told you it was possible to prevent,

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Speaker 2: CZI dot com, or follow them on social media. I

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Speaker 2: want to get back to that catastrophic debate performance for

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Speaker 2: a moment, because that was I think a wake up

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Speaker 2: call where everyone there was a collective gas when Joe

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Speaker 2: Biden could not really articulate his views and kind of

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Speaker 2: that's when he said about, you know, saving Medicare, which

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Speaker 2: had nothing to do with the question.

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Speaker 3: We have one thousand trillionaires in America, I mean billionaires

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Speaker 3: in America, and what's happening. They're in a situation where

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Speaker 3: they in fact pay eight point two percent in taxes.

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Speaker 3: If they just paid twenty four or twenty five percent,

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Speaker 3: either one of those numbers, they'd raised five hundred million

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Speaker 3: dollars billion dollars. I should say in a ten year period,

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Speaker 3: we'd be able to write wipe out his debt. We'd

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Speaker 3: be able to help make sure that all those things

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Speaker 3: we need to do, childcare, elder care, making sure that

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Speaker 3: we continue to suppreent strength in our healthcare system, making

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Speaker 3: sure that we're able to make every single solitary person

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Speaker 3: eligible for what I've been able to do with the

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Speaker 3: with the COVID, I was could be with dealing with

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Speaker 3: everything we have to do with Look if we finally

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Speaker 3: beat medicare.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, President Biden, President Trump.

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Speaker 2: I was surprised that, even after that debate performance, his

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Speaker 2: inner circle defended it, and Anita Dunn even told people

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Speaker 2: that Joe Biden had won the debate. How could she

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Speaker 2: think that in a million years, Chris completely delusional.

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Speaker 1: I think that it's hard to explain, but you are right.

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Speaker 1: Everybody was shocked by that meltdown or or whatever it

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Speaker 1: was that Biden suffered during that debate, except his inner circle.

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Speaker 1: They were still all in. And Anita Dunn, for example,

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Speaker 1: was watching a dial a so called dial group, a

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Speaker 1: focused group of undecided voters who were turning a dial

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Speaker 1: one way or the other, up or down, registering their

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Speaker 1: reaction in real time, she convinced herself that because the

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Speaker 1: dials were turning down on the rest of the debate

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Speaker 1: when Trump was being outrageous, that somehow Biden had won

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Speaker 1: the debate, that they'd come out ahead. And you know

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Speaker 1: what other advisors said, this was just a quote unquote

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Speaker 1: bad night.

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Speaker 2: Right. People said he had a cold, right.

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Speaker 1: They said he was exhausted, They and they, but they

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Speaker 1: literally said it was just a bad night. In other words,

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Speaker 1: like Barack Obama's first debate against Mitt Romney, which was

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Speaker 1: not great, but nothing like this complete moment of when

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Speaker 1: when Biden lost it. It's it's a mystery, and that's

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Speaker 1: what makes I think the story so fascinating to me.

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Speaker 1: It's a study of you know, it's a at the

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Speaker 1: heart of it is this question which readers can try

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Speaker 1: to answer for themselves. But I invited me to pick

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Speaker 1: up the book and read ron Clan's description his words,

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Speaker 1: not mine, of Joe Biden during that debate prep and

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Speaker 1: ask themselves how that guy could believe that he could

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Speaker 1: run for reelection and win.

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Speaker 2: Was it the desire of this inner circle to stay

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Speaker 2: in power? I know, during this whole chapter, people would

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Speaker 2: point to Jill Biden and say, oh, it was Jill

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Speaker 2: Biden's fault. You know, they portrayed her as kind of

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Speaker 2: a lady Macbeth, ambitious in her own right. But after

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Speaker 2: writing this, after talking to all these people, did you

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Speaker 2: come to any conclusion? Was it different for every person?

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Speaker 2: For Ron Klain, was it just this loyalty that couldn't

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Speaker 2: be shaken for others? Was it their desire to stay

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Speaker 2: empowered themselves? What was it?

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Speaker 1: Well? I think there's loyalty, There's no question about it.

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Speaker 1: You could argue, if you're cynical, that it's a power grab,

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Speaker 1: that these guys the power derived from being in office

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Speaker 1: with Joe Biden. I think that's not quite That doesn't

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Speaker 1: quite answer it. Because if you talk to these guys

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Speaker 1: as I did, and including months after the debate, months

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Speaker 1: after Biden Withdrew, you came away I did. They were

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Speaker 1: in this fog of delusion, and Deny really convinced some

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Speaker 1: of them. I'm talking about Mike donald and Steve Erschetti,

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Speaker 1: Bruce Reid convinced that Biden would have won that re election.

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Speaker 1: You know, months later, Mike donaldan was at Harvard at

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Speaker 1: the Kennedy School speaking to an audience and said he

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Speaker 1: thought the party had lost its mind. It walked away

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Speaker 1: from a guy who won eighty one million votes, the

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Speaker 1: greatest vote getter in American history. So there is my

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Speaker 1: friend Jack Watson, who is Jimmy Carter's last white best

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Speaker 1: chief of staff, who should have been chief of staff

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Speaker 1: on day one. What's told me that there's a kind

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Speaker 1: of almost magnetic force field when you're in that rarefied

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Speaker 1: air of the White House and the Oval Office. It's

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Speaker 1: an extraordinary compulsion to protect the president at all costs.

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Speaker 1: And I think they lost their judgment here. I mean

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Speaker 1: they were delusional. These are guys who you would think.

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Speaker 1: I'll give you a quick example of how you know.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty eight, one of the President's close friends,

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Speaker 1: Ted Kauffman, perhaps his closest friends. When Biden was ensnared

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Speaker 1: in that plagiarism scandal, was Kaufman who said, you know what, Joe,

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Speaker 1: it's time. It's over. That never happened, That never happened

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Speaker 1: this time around. And I don't know why not. They

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Speaker 1: were clear eyed veterans who lost their way.

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Speaker 2: You had an inkling that this was a foot when

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Speaker 2: you were writing your first book called The Fight of

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Speaker 2: His Life. And I know that you asked to interview

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Speaker 2: Joe Biden, and this was in September twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 2: and this was about the first two years of his

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Speaker 2: presidency or first book on Biden, and they would only

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Speaker 2: let you interview him if you submitted the questions in

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Speaker 2: writing and he would respond in writing. So did you

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Speaker 2: not even interview Joe Biden for that book?

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Speaker 1: I did. I interviewed him by email. I sent eight

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Speaker 1: questions in by email. I think it was eight. I

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Speaker 1: got replies back. They were obviously replies that were I

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Speaker 1: presume closely scrutinized by Ron Klain and maybe Anita Done,

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Speaker 1: who knows who else before they sent them back to me.

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Speaker 2: And who knows if he actually answered them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm pretty sure he answered them, because I was

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Speaker 1: talking to Ron Clay in real time and he was

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Speaker 1: describing meetings where he was going, come on, boss, you

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Speaker 1: got to do these, and so I'm pretty I'm convinced

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Speaker 1: they were his answers, but they were presumably cleaned up.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's unfair, but that's I presume.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to share an interesting story that happened to me, Chris,

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Speaker 2: when Joe Biden had yet to drop out of the

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Speaker 2: race for the twenty twenty four campaign. I saw him

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Speaker 2: at an event where there were a lot of stand

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Speaker 2: up to cancer supporters and I was invited, and I

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Speaker 2: had never gone to a fundraiser, and I was interested

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Speaker 2: in being an observer. And he did as he would

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Speaker 2: do in all these different events, including super casual events

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Speaker 2: like the Irish event you talked about, where he had

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Speaker 2: Irish politicians or politicians of Irish descent come to the

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Speaker 2: White House. He used to tell a prompter. He didn't

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Speaker 2: answer any questions. But he saw me, and I've known

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Speaker 2: him for decades and he said I miss you. And

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Speaker 2: I said, well, if you want to spend more time

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Speaker 2: with me, why don't you do an interview with me

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Speaker 2: and we can make up for lost time. And he

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Speaker 2: said I'd love that. After he was done giving the

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Speaker 2: short speech to funders, he leaned over to me again

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Speaker 2: and said, I really want to do an interview with you.

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Speaker 2: So then I approached his press people. They then told

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Speaker 2: me to call and I got the run around like

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Speaker 2: there was no tomorrow. I got relegated to some guy

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Speaker 2: who did was in charge of digital interviews because it

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Speaker 2: was for online and a podcast and I asked, I wrote,

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Speaker 2: Anita done personally, and I was very much stonewalled. And

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Speaker 2: now reading your book, and obviously with the benefit of hindsight,

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Speaker 2: I see why. And you write that he never did

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Speaker 2: interviews with the New York Times or the Washington Post.

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Speaker 2: Didn't he hold fewer press conferences than any president and history?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I believe that's correct.

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Speaker 2: So do you think the White House Press Corps and

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Speaker 2: the media writ large should have been making more noise

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Speaker 2: about this?

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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, you used the perfect word stonewalled

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Speaker 1: when describing the Biden Whitehouse us of VI the media.

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Speaker 1: I really found it to be Nixonian in its contempt.

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Speaker 1: Is too strong a word for the press, the White

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Speaker 1: House Press Corps. If you dared to suggest that Biden's

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Speaker 1: age was an issue, they went after you. If you

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Speaker 1: dared to write an op bed that suggested that everything

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Speaker 1: wasn't perfect, they would, they would close you down. And

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Speaker 1: and I think it. I think it came from Anita Dunne.

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Speaker 1: I think this was her. I mean, I think she

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Speaker 1: was a much more powerful figure in the Biden White

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Speaker 1: House than we realized at the time. So I would

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Speaker 1: my guess, Katie, I mean my hunch is that Biden

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Speaker 1: would have done that sit down with you and that done,

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Speaker 1: and the and the communications team shut that down in

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Speaker 1: a heartbeat and said, no, you know, you will not

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Speaker 1: be doing that. But that's that's the way this White

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Speaker 1: House operated.

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Speaker 2: It is confounding that after the debate, I know Valerie

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Speaker 2: Biden was absolutely apoplectic. She was his long time like,

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Speaker 2: how come Valerie Biden didn't see the writing on the wall,

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Speaker 2: Chris Well.

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Speaker 1: So here's here's the thing. And this is why I

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Speaker 1: say that this is different from a quote unquote cover

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Speaker 1: up in the classic sense. There were some inconvenient truths

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Speaker 1: to that theory, and one of them is the fact

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Speaker 1: that behind closed doors, more often than not, Joe Biden

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Speaker 1: governed capably. He was fine. I can tell you innumerable

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Speaker 1: people senators who came and met with him about Middle

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Speaker 1: Eastern policy who said he was on top of every

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Speaker 1: I and T, crossing every tee and knew it cold

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Speaker 1: and could articulate it very clearly. On the morning that

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Speaker 1: his senior advisors that fateful weekend of July twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 1: when his advisors came to hammer out the abdication statement

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Speaker 1: that morning, Biden was on the phone parsing the details

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Speaker 1: of one of the most complicated prisoner swaps in history,

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Speaker 1: multi nation deal. Mike Donalon, who is a senior advisor

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Speaker 1: maybe closest political advisor is alter Ego, swears up and

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Speaker 1: down that he never saw Joe Biden mentally diminished, said

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Speaker 1: he never saw period. Now is he lying maybe? Is

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Speaker 1: he delusional? Maybe? But that's his story and it's hard

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Speaker 1: to You can't just wish these inconvenient things away. In

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Speaker 1: arguing that it's a classic cover up, I don't think

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Speaker 1: it was.

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Speaker 2: I also think this is a very sensitive matter, as

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Speaker 2: you described earlier, Chris. You know, when you have to

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Speaker 2: handle taking the car keys away from an elderly parent,

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Speaker 2: it is such an emotional situation, right, and you're dealing

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Speaker 2: with someone who's aging, and you don't I think you're

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Speaker 2: aware that you don't want to be agist, that you

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Speaker 2: don't want to accuse someone of losing their faculties. I mean,

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Speaker 2: the whole thing is just so fraught, and I think

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Speaker 2: this was a microcosm of conversations that are had every

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Speaker 2: day around the dinner table or the living room sofa

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Speaker 2: when you have to talk to an aging parent.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so no question about it exponentially magnified by the

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Speaker 1: stakes involved, not just power for the people around Biden,

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Speaker 1: but the future of the country and the fate of

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Speaker 1: the world. I mean, I'm not exaggerating. I mean those

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Speaker 1: are the stakes here. Joe Biden's legacy, the Democratic Party's future,

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Speaker 1: the result of the twenty twenty four election, and the

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Speaker 1: fate of the country and the world. Put all those

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Speaker 1: things together, and that's tougher than taking the car keys.

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Speaker 2: You also write about the complicated relationship Joe Biden had

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Speaker 2: with Barack Obama. I thought that was a really interesting thing.

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Speaker 2: I'd obviously read about this and heard about it through

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Speaker 2: the years, But Joe Biden really never forgave Barack Obama

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Speaker 2: for putting his support behind Hillary Clinton in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 2: before Joe Biden had truly had the time after the

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Speaker 2: death of his son Bo from brain cancer to make

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Speaker 2: a decision about whether he was in or whether he

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Speaker 2: was out. Is that accurate?

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Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely true. Biden never forgave Barack Obama for that,

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Speaker 1: for putting his thumb on the scale for Hillary. And

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Speaker 1: it's a complicated relationship. On the one hand, they had

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Speaker 1: a genuine bond before Bo's death, actually, when Barack Obama

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Speaker 1: offered to pay for Bo's treatment and whatever he needed,

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Speaker 1: Obama was going to help out. They became very close,

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Speaker 1: but then again he could. He never forgave him for

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. And in the end, this is why the

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Speaker 1: story is so Shakespearean, because it's full of betrayals, and

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Speaker 1: one of them was Joe Biden's belief that Barack Obama

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Speaker 1: betrayed him, that he was working behind the scenes to

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Speaker 1: force him out. And the thing that one of Joe

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Speaker 1: Biden's closest friends told me that the thing that really

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Speaker 1: got to Biden was not so much George Clooney writing

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Speaker 1: a brutal op ed in the New York Times, maybe

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Speaker 1: with Obama's complicit consent, but it was the fact that

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Speaker 1: in the end, when the walls were closing in, Barack

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Speaker 1: Obama never picked up the phone and called Joe and said, hey, Joe, listen,

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Speaker 1: you sure you're up to this? He never If he

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Speaker 1: had reservations, he never shared them with Joe.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think that was? Because if they did

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Speaker 2: have some kind of friendship, and if Barack Obama cared

433
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 2: about the future of the Democratic Party, I think he

434
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 2: would take a more active role in at least questioning

435
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 2: Joe Biden's decision.

436
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 1: Well, my only the best guess I can give you

437
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: on that, Katie, is that there was this tension, this

438
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 1: conflict between the Biden and Obama camps, and perhaps Obama

439
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: felt that it would be counterproductive that the best way

440
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: to ensure that Biden stayed in the race might be

441
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 1: Obama telling him to get out. That, you know, that

442
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 1: might have been the thinking involved.

443
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. You write about how the Obama team never understood

444
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: Joe Biden's appeal and that they didn't find him to

445
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: be very sophisticated, which I felt was ironic given the

446
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 2: fact that the Democratic Party has lost its hold on

447
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: working class voters. And that was obviously one of Joe

448
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: Biden's big strong suits, the guy from Scranton, Pennsylvania, who

449
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: could talk to the average working Joe literally, and yet

450
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 2: people in the Obama camp didn't seem to appreciate that

451
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 2: and kind of we're condescending in a way that working

452
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 2: class voters have felt the Democratic Party had become in general.

453
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, well, yeah, they looked down their noses at

454
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: Joe scrant and Joe they didn't think he had it

455
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: and at one point, David Pluff was dispatched to go

456
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: talk to Biden. This was around the time of the

457
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen race, and Pluff sat down with Biden and

458
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: said to him, Joe, you don't want to end your

459
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: career in an Iowa hotel room, do you. And Biden

460
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: was just furious about this, and as one of his

461
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: aides said to me, he hates the Davids, The Davids

462
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: being plus An.

463
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 2: Axel Rod interesting and David Axelrod was pretty vocal about

464
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 2: his thoughts at Joe Biden should bow out. Finally, it

465
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 2: was Nancy Pelosi who, really, I guess, put the nail

466
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 2: in the coffin. If you will tell us about what

467
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 2: you know about that conversation when she spoke to Biden

468
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 2: face to face and basically delivered the tough language and

469
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 2: the tough words that it was time to take away

470
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 2: the car keys or give up his run for reelection

471
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 2: in this case.

472
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a story that I report for the first

473
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: time in Uncharted. The previous reporting had suggested that this

474
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: was a phone call that Pelosi had had with Biden.

475
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: What I learned was that she went and she had

476
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: this clandestine meeting with Joe Biden. She went to the

477
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 1: White House, not to the Oval Office where she might

478
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: be seen, but they arranged to meet in the residents.

479
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: It was July eleven, was the day the same day,

480
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: coincidentally that Nancy Pelosi went on Morning Joe and was

481
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: asked by Jonathan whether Biden should run again, and she said, oh,

482
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: it worth the effect of it's his decision. We're waiting

483
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: for him to decide. After Biden had already made it clear,

484
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: emphatically clear that he was running, so she and she

485
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: masterfully put the ball back in his court, knowing that

486
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: the pressure was going to be overwhelming for him eventually

487
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: to step aside. But later that day she went to

488
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: the White House and met privately, she said to a friend,

489
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: because nobody would confirm this meeting until Jeff Snipes finally

490
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,959
Speaker 1: reluctantly confirmed it to me. She said, we had a

491
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: long talk about America, and in her inimitable way, she

492
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: went down memory Lane with the President. They talked about history,

493
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: they talked about their shared Catholic faith. They talked about

494
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: all kinds of things, and she said, not in a

495
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: boasting way, but she said to a friend, l thereafter,

496
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: I'm the only one who could have sent that message.

497
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: He trusts me, and she left without any kind of

498
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: Biden was still digging in, but she left thinking that

499
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: she'd gotten through to him. And it was ten days later.

500
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: It took another long ten days, and I tell the

501
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: whole story of the drama of those ten days before

502
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: Biden ultimately stepped aside.

503
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 2: If you want to get smarter every morning with a

504
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 2: breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and

505
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 2: wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter

506
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 2: wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. I

507
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: thought that Kamala Harris handled this uncertain chapter really well

508
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 2: because she did have to walk a delicate type robe.

509
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: You right, the vice president was navigating a political mindfield.

510
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 2: The slightest misstep, any hint that she was plotting to

511
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 2: replace the president could have been politically fatal. But while

512
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 2: Harris was lying low, her political operation was working behind

513
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 2: the scenes. Her chief of staff, Lorraine Bowles, had been

514
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 2: thinking about a contingency like this since November nineteenth, twenty

515
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 2: twenty one. And that was, by the way, when President Biden,

516
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 2: under Section three of the twenty fifth Amendment, had voluntarily

517
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 2: transferred his powers and duties to Harris while he underwent

518
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 2: a kolonoscopy. Gay glad he got his colonoscopy. But what

519
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 2: do you make of Kamala Harris's ability to continue to

520
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 2: support the president. She obviously knew what was going on.

521
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 2: I'm assuming she insisted that he was all there, that

522
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 2: he was fully capable, fully functioning, and yet she knew

523
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: that if anything to happen, there was a good chance

524
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 2: that she would step in his place.

525
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: Well, as I as I wrote, as you quoted from

526
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: the book, she was really treading through a minefield. She

527
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 1: had to be. She had no choice other than to

528
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: be completely one hundred percent supportive. She had to be

529
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: Caesar's wife, you know, during this whole walk up to

530
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,479
Speaker 1: the decision that he made. But she was clear eyed

531
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: enough to know that that day might be coming. She

532
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: didn't know when it would happen, and on July twenty first,

533
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: when she did get the phone call, she was ready.

534
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: They had a whole team that sprang into action around

535
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 1: the dining room table at the Naval Observatory, working the phones,

536
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: the laptops, reaching out to everybody across the country. They'd

537
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: already had operatives out very carefully and quietly with who

538
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: could not be traced to Kamala Harris. They were already

539
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: out there and they checked out the rules and you

540
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 1: know where the money would go and all the rest

541
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 1: of it. And they also were pressuring some Democratic senators

542
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 1: to turn on bite. But the result of all that

543
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: is that when that phone call came, when she was

544
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: standing in the kitchen of the Naval observatory on twenty

545
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: first of July, they were ready to go, and it

546
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: was a tour to force that. In the next forty

547
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 1: eight hours, she really nailed down the nomination.

548
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 2: I thought she did an incredible job. And of course,

549
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: during that period of the campaign, everyone was saying this

550
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 2: was the Trump campaign's nightmare. They wanted Donald Trump to

551
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 2: run against Joe Biden, and they didn't want a more

552
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 2: capable candidate.

553
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: Trump was furious and he thought it was a coup.

554
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: He thought he was being cheated. He said to Paul Manafort.

555
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: It was another strange story in this book. He said

556
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: to Paul Manifort, his disgraced ex campaign chief, who was

557
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: working with him again. He said, oh, so now I

558
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: have to win the election three times. The first time

559
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: in his mind was beating Biden. The second was beating

560
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: the courts. The third was now I have to beat her, and.

561
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 2: She was a formidable candidate initially. Do you think if

562
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 2: there had been the so called many primary, which a

563
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 2: lot of people wondered if there was even time for

564
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 2: that at that point in the campaign, would have been

565
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 2: better and people would have felt more I guess invested

566
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 2: in the Democratic nominee.

567
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: So I think the only question, Katie is would the

568
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: Democrats have been better off a year earlier or maybe

569
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: two years earlier, when there would have been time for

570
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: a real competition and a real Democratic primary. It was

571
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 1: too late in July of twenty twenty four. It was

572
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: impossible and to have a so called mini primary, and

573
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 1: if you looked at the rules, and I was told

574
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 1: by people high up in the DNC who understand this stuff,

575
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 1: that it couldn't have been done. It was just impossible.

576
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 1: The money was all going to Harris, to the person

577
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: on the It wasn't really conceivable to have a mini primary.

578
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: So the real question is why didn't Joe Biden step

579
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: aside a year earlier or.

580
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: Two right, And then we get back to the beginning

581
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: of our conversation about it being hard to give up power,

582
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 2: not only for his inner circle, but for Joe Biden himself.

583
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you, also, Chris, about Kamala Harris's

584
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 2: navigation of praising her administration but also separating herself from it. Famously,

585
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,399
Speaker 2: she was asked on the view a question that I

586
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: think haunted her throughout the campaign.

587
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: Would you have done something differently than President Biden during

588
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: the past four years? There is done a thing that

589
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 1: comes to mind in terms of and I've been a

590
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: part of most of the decisions that have had impact.

591
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 2: You write that Joe Biden had even given her permission

592
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 2: to be basically differentiate herself as a candidate. On the

593
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 2: other hand, that is so tricky, Chris. I feel for

594
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 2: her because she can't shed all over the Biden administration

595
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: of which she was a part without looking like a turncoat.

596
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 2: And you know, I think it was very difficult for

597
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 2: her to pick places where she could have differentiated herself.

598
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,439
Speaker 2: I guess she could have said, in retrospect, we could

599
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 2: have done more on the border, right, But it's really

600
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 2: hard because anything she says is going to be twisted

601
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 2: and is going to be taken by the opposition as

602
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 2: being disloyal or criticizing the very deministration she was a

603
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 2: part of.

604
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: Right, Well, nobody said it would be easy. But think

605
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: of again, I think I was right before Joe Biden

606
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: dropped out. I was writing a different book about presidential

607
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: campaign managers through history, and I was looking at the

608
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight race and Hubert Humphrey broke with Lyndon

609
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: Johnson famously late in the campaign. It was in October

610
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty eight, and he almost caught Richard Nixon

611
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: in an election that he lost by Harris Breath. But

612
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: it was a real surge. And I think that she

613
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: could have done something like that, But nobody's saying it

614
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: would have been easy. The irony here is that not

615
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: only was she prepared to answer that question on the

616
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: view seven Ways to Sunday because they knew it was coming,

617
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: but Lorraine Voles, her chief of staff, and General Maley

618
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: Dillan had gone to the White House and met with

619
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: Jeff Zience, the chief of Staff, and they were going

620
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,919
Speaker 1: in effect for permission to separate themselves from Biden, and

621
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: Zience and others told him, do what you have to do,

622
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 1: we get it, we understand, and Biden personally called Kamala

623
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: Harris and said, hey, go for it. If you have

624
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 1: to do it, you have to do it. And I'm paraphrasing,

625
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: I don't write she couldn't do it. And I'm told

626
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: by the people who know her well that what it

627
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: came down to was loyalty. That she couldn't throw Joe

628
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: Biden under the bus. So she couldn't. And what she said,

629
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: of course, was I can't think of a single thing

630
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: that she would have done differently, and it was devastating.

631
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: Within hours, the Trump campaign had a commercial with that

632
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,399
Speaker 1: sound in it, and it was it was the death

633
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: knell for a change campaign. You know, somebody, if you

634
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: if you're trying to run on change, you can't give

635
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: that answer.

636
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 2: What should she have said?

637
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 1: Well, that's why they paid They don't pay me the

638
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: big buck. But I think she probably could have said

639
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 1: something to the effect of, you know, look, we've done

640
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: a B, C, and D, but you know what, we

641
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: blew it on inflation, and here's what I'm going to do.

642
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: I think it was probably too late for her to

643
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: convince anyone that she was going to be tough on

644
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: the border. That was probably a lost cause. But if

645
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: you had to choose one thing. In my view, it

646
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been Gaza, it would have been inflation.

647
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 2: But how much could they have really controlled inflation and fairness? Maybe?

648
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 2: I don't know. My mom used to say the president

649
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 2: doesn't make the economy. The economy makes the president.

650
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 1: No, that's true, except when they're destroying the economy of

651
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: course with TIFFs. But anyway, I mean I think that No,

652
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: you have to be caught trying, I think is the

653
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: point at the end of the day. Even if even

654
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: if you and I know that there's very little the

655
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 1: president can do about that, you have to be caught trying.

656
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,720
Speaker 2: In addition to talking a lot about obviously the Biden

657
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 2: presidency and campaign, Chris, you also focus on Donald Trump,

658
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 2: the first administration and his twenty twenty four campaign chairs,

659
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 2: Susie Wiles and Chris la Sevida. I had forgot that

660
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 2: Chris los Sevita was the architect of the swift boat

661
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 2: campaign against John Kerry. Can you remind people what that

662
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 2: was all about?

663
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: Yeah? This was the This was Chris los Avita's claim

664
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 1: to fame, this devastating ad campaign that he launched against

665
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: John Kerrey in two thousand and four. Carrie of course,

666
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: was the Democratic nominee who went to the convention and

667
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 1: said reporting for duty, he was running on his military record,

668
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: and las Avita, by rounding up people in the military

669
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: at the time who didn't like John Kerrey, managed to

670
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: turn it into a strike against him. They also they

671
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: all disputed Carrie's claims that he was, you know, of

672
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: his exploits in Vietnam as captain of a so called

673
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: swift boat. It was called the swift Boat Veterans for Truth,

674
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: and it was not truthful, but extremely effective, and las

675
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 1: Avita really became a kind of hero for having created

676
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: it within the GOP. So now fast forward to the

677
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four campaign and suddenly there's a devastating ad

678
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: campaign about transsurgery for inmates in which Kamala is captured

679
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 1: in her own words advocating the right of prisoners to

680
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: have trans surgery. And with her words it was devastating.

681
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: Of course, ended with the tagline She's for they them,

682
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: Trump is for you. And when that happened, I know

683
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: one presidential one former winning Democratic presidential campaign manager, who

684
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 1: said to me off the record, their inability to answer

685
00:43:55,520 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: that was just crazy. Was and he called General Melli

686
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: Dyllon and her gang and said, what are you doing?

687
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 1: You got to answer this, and the reply he got was, well,

688
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: there is no answer for it, so we're just going

689
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 1: to let that go.

690
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 2: You also write about Susie Wiles, who is such an

691
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 2: interesting figure in politics. She's the daughter Pat Summerle, the

692
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 2: famed sportscaster who was also an alcoholic, and that in

693
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 2: many ways helped her navigate Trump's aggression and his erratic moods.

694
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 2: How would you describe her relationship with Donald Trump and

695
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 2: why do you think she's been so effective? And he

696
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 2: clearly trusts her, right.

697
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: Susie Wiles is a fascinating story, really amazing, and she

698
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 1: has some kind of magic with Trump. He trusts her.

699
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: There's never been any real worry that she would be

700
00:44:56,080 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: fired by Trump, and she has a kind of magic

701
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: with him. And I think part of it, without meaning

702
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: to sound like an armchair psychologist, I think part of

703
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: it goes back to the way she handled her alcoholic father,

704
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: who was very difficult. I think she'd be the first

705
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: to admit it. Children of alcoholics have a real sensitivity

706
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,359
Speaker 1: and a kind of a kind of antenna for what

707
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: they can control and what they can't, and she has

708
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: found that modus operandi with Donald Trump, which she's carried

709
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 1: on into the White House. But of course, look, you

710
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 1: could argue that as White House chief of staff, she

711
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: should be picking, she should be telling the president her

712
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: truths much more often than she might be.

713
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:46,439
Speaker 2: You also write about how you were invited to Derek

714
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: Kushner's in avodka at Trump's home several times during Trump's

715
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 2: first term, which I found fascinating. How many times did

716
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 2: you visit with them, Chris in their home? And what

717
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 2: do you think they really wanted to understand? I guess

718
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 2: you're right that they wanted to understand the inner working

719
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 2: so the White House. How I guess they could create

720
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 2: some discipline in what they saw sort of the chaos.

721
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 2: But what do you think they were after? What did

722
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 2: you all talk about all the time? And how many

723
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 2: times again did you visit them?

724
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, I would say nobody. First of all,

725
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 1: nobody was more surprised than I to get this email

726
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: from the White House from Yvonka's assistant and then being

727
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 1: invited to their place. But I went many times, maybe

728
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 1: more than a dozen times that I visited with them,

729
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: and it was an irresisible opportunity to get some insight

730
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 1: into the Trump White House, and I think it was different.

731
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 1: I think in Ivanka's case, I think she was surprised

732
00:46:55,640 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: and somewhat encouraged to learn that they weren't the first

733
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: White House to have all kinds of all health breaking,

734
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: loose and internest scene warfare and backstabbing, and I think

735
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: she I think it helped her to put their experience

736
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,760
Speaker 1: into perspective. In Jared's case, I think he was trying

737
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:22,320
Speaker 1: to navigate this chaotic, very dangerous White House and deal

738
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: with the chiefs of staff that he had to deal with,

739
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: and so I think they thought they could learn something,

740
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 1: and I thought I could learn something from them, and

741
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 1: that I would get them eventually to go on the record,

742
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: and I never really did.

743
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:39,879
Speaker 2: Why did they decide to basically kind of separate themselves

744
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 2: from Trump World ultimately?

745
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 1: Well, I've been told that essentially it comes down to

746
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 1: the success that Jared has had with his company, and

747
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 1: of course he's had a major infusion of funds from

748
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 1: the saudiast as we all know, controversially, but he's doing

749
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: quite well, thank you very much, in his business career.

750
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 1: And I think for Evoka, I think it was a

751
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: rough ride. I think the first four years or not

752
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 1: something she's eager to repeat. It was a I think

753
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 1: emotionally difficult period for her.

754
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 2: Getting back to Susie Wiles, is she the only one left?

755
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 2: You mentioned? Maybe she should be speaking out more. Maybe

756
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 2: there is no one left, Chris who provides some of

757
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 2: the constraints that a leader like Donald Trump needs. He

758
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 2: got rid of all the people who challenged him in

759
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 2: his first term. He is as unrestrained as ever, it seems,

760
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 2: and has surrounded himself with sycophants and clearly people who

761
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 2: were affirming and supporting everything he does and telling him

762
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 2: basically what he wants to hear. I guess Susie Wiles

763
00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 2: isn't that person. Is there anyone at all who's trying

764
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 2: to do that in this current White House?

765
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: Very few, is my observation, although Susie Wiles claims that

766
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: she's trying and that she pushes back. And you know,

767
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,240
Speaker 1: I've talked to her off and on and quite recently,

768
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: and she is trying, she says to you know, It's interesting.

769
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 1: She told me that one of the first people she

770
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: called was Jim Baker, James A. Baker, the third, Reagan's

771
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,439
Speaker 1: White House chief before she took the job. Everybody does that,

772
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 1: and Baker always tells them the same thing. Congratulations, you've

773
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,879
Speaker 1: got the worst blanking job in Washington. Multiply that by

774
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 1: twenty at least in her case. So she's told me

775
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 1: that she's pushed back on a number of major Trump initiatives.

776
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: She's had some success in moderating some of Trump's decisions,

777
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 1: and in other cases, as she put it, Ty goes

778
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: to the president. So we will see.

779
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 2: You've done a deep dive into the Democratic Party from

780
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 2: the twenty twenty four perspective. How do you see the

781
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 2: party digging out of this mess? Are there people who

782
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 2: you're looking to Chris as the future stars of the

783
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 2: Democratic Party. It seems like people are desperate, desperate for

784
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 2: leadership or certainly someone who is standing up to Donald

785
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 2: Trump and more than that organizing the so called resistance.

786
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 2: Do you see anyone emerging from the pack?

787
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: I don't know that I'd see anyone in particular emerging

788
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:47,280
Speaker 1: at this point, but it's a really deep bench of talent.

789
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: I mean, there are really so many promising Democrats out there.

790
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 1: But I look, I think I would disagree with my

791
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: pal James Carville. I don't think the best strategy is

792
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: to lie low and let the let Trump dig himself

793
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 1: into a hole from which he can't climb out. I

794
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 1: think it's important to be out there, and I think

795
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 1: just look at the recent marches protests, look at Bernie

796
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: Sanders and AOC and their anti oligarchy tour. I think,

797
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 1: whatever you may think of them, they have a really clear,

798
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 1: understandable message, and I think other Democrats are going to

799
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 1: have to get out there and do the same thing.

800
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 2: Well, Chris Whipple, the book is called Uncharted, How Trump

801
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 2: beat Biden, Harris and the odds and the wildest campaign

802
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 2: in history and now we're experiencing I think the ramifications

803
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 2: of that campaign and that election full stop. Thank you

804
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 2: so much for giving us the inside scoop on what

805
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 2: was happening in both campaigns. I found it a fascinating

806
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 2: reason and I'm so grateful you spent this time with us, Katie.

807
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 1: Thanks so much. I'm grateful to you, great to be with.

808
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me,

809
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 2: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

810
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 2: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,

811
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 2: reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would

812
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 2: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production

813
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 2: of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive producers are Me,

814
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 2: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,

815
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 2: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian

816
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