1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always 3 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. Let's give it up for 4 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,279 Speaker 1: our one and only. You know him, you love him, 5 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: Mr Max Williams, our super producer, So yeah, they call 6 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: me Ben. I'm as always immensely privileged to hang out 7 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: with Mr Noel Brown none other. I get a Mr. 8 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: Let's tie. It's like a let's an honorific. No, not really, 9 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: I guess it would be it was an honorific. Is 10 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: that just like a funny title, like like Nol the 11 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: bold or Nold the pedantic, Nol the dull. That's more 12 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: of an honorific. I have a Mr. Is just more 13 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: of like a prefix. Well, you know, uh, to quote 14 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:17,919 Speaker 1: Quentin Tarantino in pulp fiction, we're Americans, baby, Our names 15 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: don't mean beepy. We're gonna come back around to Mr 16 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: t a little later in the episode today. And that 17 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,639 Speaker 1: episode is in fact, part two of the Tangled Web 18 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: of Noggins, that is phrenology pseudoscience for the ages. Yes, yes, 19 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: it's a high quackery here Ridiculous History, and we are 20 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: having such a great time. We were. We were talking 21 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: recently folks about the history of our show off air 22 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: Noel Max and yours truly, and we wanted to give 23 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: some space real quick to super producer Max Max. You 24 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: had told us all fair in preparation for part two 25 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: of this episode that you had you had some stuff 26 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: you wanted to air. Yeah, I do so. Um, I'm 27 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: gonna turn to the left here. It's gonna be a 28 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: very visual thing. It's gonna be great for you know, 29 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,399 Speaker 1: a podcast. If I scrolled back, I guess we'll see 30 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: the still poster over there anymore. Guess see that? Yeah? 31 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: It wasn't that a map of the lands between from 32 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: the sky or I'm still there? But I took down 33 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: the fallout perk tree. That's because yesterday I got a 34 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: new poster and I was so inspired by the Nancy 35 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: Wake episode that I got myself what Nancy Wake film 36 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: no War poster. It is from the artist. I found 37 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: it on red Bubble, which is called the Nable website. 38 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: It's the artist Tom Tom with with the ohs and 39 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: that spelled with zero. It is amazing and I love 40 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: it and I just wanted to give a little shout 41 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 1: out to that. Now I'm gonna put it back on 42 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: my wall. Classic internet artist name. Uh. The style is 43 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: sort of almost like a cell shading kind of video gaming. 44 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: Look to a new our depiction of Nancy Wake, and 45 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: she's wearing kind of a not a fedora. What do 46 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: you call that thing? Ben, It's like a well, it's 47 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: definitely a hat, Max. Yeah, hold it up again. Let's 48 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 1: look at this hat. So it's almost like, oh, it's 49 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 1: tough to tell because of the styling, but it's got 50 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: a big brim. You know, who would know? No, Holly 51 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: Fry would know. Ah, where's a Holly Fry on you one? 52 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: I love our dudes, but initially it was do they 53 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: really not know what a beret is? This is Holly Fry, 54 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: one of the hosts of stuff you missed in history class. 55 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: Holly is a fund of knowledge in many things, including hats. 56 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: But when we talked, Holly seemed very puzzled by Ben 57 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: in nold confusion. Look, I get it, this is a 58 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: stylized piece of art. But if you then look at 59 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: any photograph some Nancy Wake on which this art is based, 60 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: she is almost always wearing a beret, and she wears 61 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: kind of a stiff beret that's like off to one side. 62 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: But I really got confused when they mentioned the large brim. 63 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: I don't know what they think a hat looks like. 64 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: Do you think there's really any hope for these guys 65 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: on them ever figuring out what a hat is? You know, 66 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go with my favorite response in such situations, 67 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: which is, bless their hearts. This sub episode of Ridiculous 68 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: History was written and produced by Max Williams. Special thanks 69 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: to Holly Fry. Do you think Ben and Nole will 70 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: learn what a beret is? Let us know on social 71 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: media and we will see you in the rest of 72 00:04:48,680 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 1: this episode of Ridiculous History. I mean, but to me 73 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: it appears less of Fedora and more of a cabby 74 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: flat cap meets a beret is. She wears it well 75 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: and it goes along beautifully with her kind of beige um. 76 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: Would you call that a duster or sort of like 77 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: a like a like a like a waistcoat, not really 78 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: a waistcoat of a trench jacket. Trench coat. Yes, there's 79 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: some trench ery. They're all Hail the White Mouse. It 80 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: looks like almost like a summer hat with the brim 81 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: turned up. Anyway, we are point is, folks, we did 82 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: a deep dive with our research associate Zack Williams into 83 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: phrenology and we knew going in this was going to 84 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: be a two parter or so. If you have not 85 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 1: heard part one, uh just pause, check it out. There's 86 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that will apply, will give you 87 00:05:54,480 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: a moment maybe with a waiting room sound cute. I 88 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: love music. It's just slaps, you know, and the kids 89 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: are repurposing it into this vapor waves stuff, which I 90 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: also love. It's just it's good stuff. But yeah, agreed. 91 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: All right, so you've listened to part one, back with us. 92 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: We've got the band back together for part two of 93 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: Why was Fornology a thing? In the first part of 94 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: this series, Uh, no, you and I looked at the 95 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: origin and the rise of phrenology, and no, I think 96 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: you and I both were surprised by the at times 97 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: really progressive stance fornologists took, like the equality of the sexes. 98 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: That's something I wasn't expected. Yeah, it was. It's certainly 99 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: a mixed bag in that respect because some of the 100 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: proponents of spreading the gospel, if you will, a phrenology. 101 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 1: Certainly we're trying to make it inclusive for both of 102 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: the sexes. Uh, And there was sort of like a 103 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: women's liberation kind of bent to it, ways of using 104 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: phrenology to empower women and say, oh, women are actually 105 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: good at this stuff. Though sometimes even those things were 106 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: like they're better at maths or like organization stuff that 107 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: well seemingly progressive also kind of put them in a 108 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: box as well. But we were sort of inching towards 109 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: I think where most of today's episode is going to focus, 110 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: which is some of the really nefarious ways that that phrenology, 111 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: somewhat similarly to the idea of like eugenics, were used, 112 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: you know, to keep certain races uh down and certain 113 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: types of individuals down because of perceived proof, you know, 114 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: based on the shape and size of the parts of 115 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: their brain felt through the shape and size of the 116 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: parts of their skulls. Yeah, and in in part one 117 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: you and I gave a shout out to stuff they 118 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: don't want you knows episode on standardized testing, which has 119 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: surprisingly similar roots. Yes, yeah, prenology is not real science. 120 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: It is definitely a study in contradiction. And we saved 121 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: a particular bit of history that we thought would be 122 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: illuminating for us to kick off part two of this series, 123 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: and that is this. Yes, phrenology very much had a 124 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:46,359 Speaker 1: dark side, but it's a dark side that is older 125 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: than phrenology. It's older than Dr Franz gall. You can 126 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: trace the d n A of phrenology all the way 127 00:08:55,559 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: back to another older pseudo science, physio agnomy. Physiognomy right, Yeah, 128 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: that one has a similar ring to cranioscopy, but it's 129 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: much much older. Apparently none other than Pythagoras, you know, 130 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: the theorem guy that the triangle guy, was one of 131 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: the early proponents of physiognomy. He would often physiognomize um 132 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: the the the young men who surrounded him and the 133 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: new he was, you know, mentoring and and then acting 134 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: as their their tutor or our instructor. Uh. And this 135 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: is according to the Roman historian Alias Gellius. And by 136 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: the way, a lot of the stuff here that we're 137 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,359 Speaker 1: about to cover in this section comes from a fantastic 138 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: Wired article by uh Matt Simon from January twenty one. 139 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: Not going to read the headline because it gives away 140 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: some of the fun stuff to come, but definitely worth 141 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: a full read. And also the work of Matt Simon 142 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: in general, is is quite a solid agreed agreed, So 143 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 1: say we all, I love that you're bringing up Pythagoras 144 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: because this idea of seeing people who want to be 145 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: as students literally seeing them and then let's see Gillius 146 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: says that Pythagoras inquired quote into the character and dispositions 147 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: of men by an inference drawn from their facial appearance 148 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: and expression and from the form and burying of their 149 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: whole body. To me, that sounds like either a casting couch, 150 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: I know, or a family show or a vibe check, 151 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: Like what if they were a family show? But we 152 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: just did that doctor finger joke on the first part. Yeah, baby, 153 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: well I probably broke my finger as a result of 154 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: bad karma for that one. For anyone who um, obviously 155 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 1: we're not audio show. We just described a poster to you. 156 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: I am I am recording this episode with uh a 157 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: weirdly bent left ringing finger, and our own Mr Noel 158 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: Brown is a trooper because this man is recording while 159 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: moving houses. That's from the way to describe it as 160 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: like sort of a vacant white void, sort of like 161 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: where John Oliver broadcast from during the pandemic. I'm just 162 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: in you know, it's my same studio that I've been 163 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: in for years now, but devoid of all stuff except 164 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: for my little desk in my USB mike because I'm 165 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: still waiting on Internet to be hooked up in my 166 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: new place, but that should be any day now, Ben, 167 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: is your would you consider your finger? Is it sort 168 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: of a furled finger? Content? I almost want to take 169 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: my homemade splint off so you can see the the 170 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: the offensive geometry of my finger right now. But what 171 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: we're saying is we're going to power through because we 172 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: are so fast. Speaking of offensive geometry, let's go back 173 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: to Pathaker. Yeah, there we go like like he's just 174 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: He's just like, imagine you're going to You're You're like, 175 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: here is one of the great thinkers of my time. 176 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: Please Pythagoras, teach me your wisdom. And he's like, stand back, 177 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: let me check what you look like. Because the idea, 178 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: and we learned this thanks to Jody Jenkinson in a 179 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: wonderful essay called face Facts, A History of Physiognomy from 180 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: Ancient Mesopotamia to the end of the nineteenth century. The 181 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: idea here that Pythagoras is practicing is that if you 182 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: look like a certain animal. Then you have that animals 183 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: personality and characteristics and attributes as determined by the observer. 184 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: Like have you guys like no, have you ever have 185 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: you ever met someone and thought, if you were an animal, 186 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: you would be this animal? Sure, maybe someone was sort 187 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: of lupine features. There's actually a fabulous illustration in that 188 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,719 Speaker 1: Wired article that I mentioned of of a gentleman with 189 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: sort of a broad skull uh and a slow opening, 190 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: pointing nose in a very small kind of chin and 191 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 1: mouth area um, posed next to an illustration of what 192 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: looks to be kind of a bloodhound uh. And the 193 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: the the delightful caption um from uh from Matt Simon 194 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: or whomever writes captions for for Wired says, according to 195 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: the theory of physiognomy, the man pictured would behave like 196 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: a dog because he looks like one Robb like teen wolf, 197 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: only without the sick ray bands. That was back when 198 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: ray bands were like affordable, you get them anywhere, and 199 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,439 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, like Luxotica bought them and 200 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: then they became this like bespoke item. Yeah, they're all 201 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: made by Lexotica, all the sunglasses. Check out our episode 202 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: on that. Also, I want to shout out, I love 203 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: the English language. Man, I want to shout out another 204 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: great word. Volpi v u l p I n E. 205 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: If you hear someone described as having a volpi face, 206 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 1: it means they look kind of like a fox. So, yeah, 207 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: like the Pokemon vulpis if I'm not mistaken, is is 208 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: it fox like Pokemon? That's correctly false into nine tails? Yes? 209 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 1: Do it? That sneaking enough and peaceful, and it's just 210 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: for you right now, there's still facts, even if they're tangents. 211 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: It's totally factual. It's totally we need to know about 212 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: the evolution of Pokemon. And I'm not going to talk 213 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: about anything after second generation because I do not know 214 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: all nine billion Pokemon. They have not That's where you 215 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: draw the line max second generation. That's when I call 216 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: second generation is the last time you could catch them 217 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: all in one game corre, you see the past generation, 218 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: but you could actually catch them all. It was actually 219 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: feasible after that. Now that doesn't that that that doesn't 220 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: count be catching all the Pokemon is a fool's air 221 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: And at this point it's not possible, is that what 222 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: you're saying? And I think by the third generation, you 223 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: couldn't catch like charmanders and Pika choose and stuff like 224 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: that anymore. I don't replayed them. But second, jan second 225 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: is worth that. I respect you. A man's got to 226 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: have a code and shout out to our ride or 227 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: die Mr Matt Frederick for the amazing performance in one 228 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: of our favorite sound cues. So we know basically that 229 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: this is judging people's appearance right with all the confidence 230 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: of the very incorrect. And it almost becomes a medical diagnostic, 231 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: like you could look at someone and say, hey, you 232 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: have you are obviously ill, or you are given to 233 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: being profligate or something like that. This practice, from from 234 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: the age of Pythagoras continues sporadically throughout Europe in the 235 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: Middle Ages and in the sixteenth century it has what 236 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: pr folks will call a moment. It really like it 237 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: goes nuts. People are all about it. And a lot 238 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: of this is due to an Italian guy, Jean Batista 239 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: de la Porta, who legitimizes this study of physiognomy as 240 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: what he calls the product of natural science. He writes 241 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: a book called the Humana Physiogneumonia, and uh, he has 242 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: a lot of like I think his illustration is the 243 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: one that's in that Wired article. Nol Right, it's like 244 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: a lot of illustrations of human beings next to animals 245 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: that he thinks they look like. Obviously he's got his 246 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: thumb on the scale because he's drawing both of these illustrations, 247 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: and then he kind of makes some caricatures. These are 248 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: not photo realistic drawings of people. And you know, much 249 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: like where we have landed with phrenology. Uh, physiognomy was 250 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 1: also pretty fully discredited by the end of the seventeenth century. 251 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: But of course there are those who continued to grasp 252 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: on to the past and say, no, no, everyone else 253 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: is wrong. I know what's going on here. Uh So 254 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: in the eighteenth century you had a guy named Johann 255 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: Casper uh Lavader uh lavataire Um who was a an 256 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: evangelist kind of. For physiognomy Um, he actually published a 257 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: four addition um treatise. Is more than a treatise. I mean, 258 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: it's really like a like a tomb multi volume tome 259 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,959 Speaker 1: on the subject. Saying, quote again from this Wired article, uh, 260 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: one could better love one's neighbor by classifying him according 261 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: to his facial features. Okay, is that really what you're 262 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: after to love one's neighbor by bye bye pigeon holing them, 263 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: like because they look like a pigeon. Perhaps I don't know, 264 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 1: there we go, yeah, you know, let me go. I 265 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: know we've got a lot of tangents here, but let 266 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: me go on on a tangent real quick. Let me 267 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: set up a soapbox, Noel max Fellow, ridiculous historians. I 268 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: have always objected to the old idiom in English. You 269 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 1: can't judge a book by its cover, because what do 270 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: you see at bookstores? What do you see at libraries? 271 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: You see books with covers. There's a reason those covers exist. Uh, 272 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: And and maybe it's a little personal at this point. 273 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: Maybe it's a little close because we just wrote a 274 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: book that's coming out in October for stuff they don't 275 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: want you to know. But anyway, yeah, absolutely correct. This 276 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: guy Lavatar is saying it's good to look at people's 277 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: faces and draw your own conclusions. He thought that the 278 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: more attractive a person was, again in his estimation, the 279 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: more moral, the more ethically sound, the better they were. 280 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: And uh, there's a really cool example that Matt Simon 281 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: uses by by way of comparison. Uh, like palmistry. He's 282 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: applying the um the assumptions of reading palms to the 283 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: assumption of reading faces. I've always kind of felt there 284 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: was a kinship between palmistry and phrenology. You know. Palmistry 285 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: is less about um othering and kind of like, you know, 286 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: figuring out how people's brains work. Uh, it's more about 287 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: like divining future events, you know, based on like the 288 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: layout in the lines and all that of people's palms. 289 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: A little more tied to like you know, astrology or 290 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: spiritualism and stuff like that. But I've always kind of 291 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: felt like that they were they were sort of a 292 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: kinship there. I think it's interesting how even to this 293 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: day they're like kind of echoes of these things in 294 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 1: terms of like they say that people with beards are 295 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 1: less trustworthy or people perceive them that way, or like 296 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: clean shaven people are more trustworthy. And then of course 297 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: there are much more race sho really motivated in the 298 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: negative way. I'm not sure what other way there is, 299 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: ways of examining people's faces and noses and saying, oh, 300 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: have you got nose that looks like this? You must 301 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: be from this particular ethnic group, and all of that stuff. 302 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: So there certainly are kind of like remnants of this 303 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 1: kind of thinking still active to this day. Absolutely. And 304 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: let's give a very dubious shout out to another character 305 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: in this conversation, Caesar Lombrasso. This guy Lombrasso is convinced 306 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 1: that you can look at someone's face, regardless of their age, 307 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 1: and tell if they are a criminal, if they are 308 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: destined to be a criminal. And this is something that 309 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: you and Max and I were joking about off air. 310 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: This guy is doing something that a lot of scientists 311 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: were doing in this age. He was grading facial features, 312 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: and somehow every time he found a positive attribute it 313 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: happened to be correlating with one of his own facial features. 314 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: And every time there was a negative attribute, it was 315 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: a facial feature that he himself did not possess. So 316 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: if he had a small nose, he would say, big 317 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: noses mean you are you know, like given to gambling. 318 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: If he had a weak chin, he would be like, 319 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: prognatic chins are you know? Those are for adulterers. It's 320 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: not super sound methodology, is what I'm saying. I want 321 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: to pop back to something I said in the last 322 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: episode where I made a blind stab in the dark 323 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: about the origins of the expression cut of your jib. 324 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: I got the jim. Yeah, I've got it too, but 325 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: I totally got it wrong in my mind. I'm like, 326 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: jib you know, usually refers to like liking the way 327 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 1: someone looks, so like the cut of their face or 328 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,360 Speaker 1: their bone structure. That's not what it is at all. Yeah, 329 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: it's to see a naval term a jib, of course, 330 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: being like the sail or the mast I believe, are 331 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 1: part of a warship. And the term was used, I 332 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: believe popularized by Sir Walter Raleigh UM and the idea 333 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 1: of liking the cut of someone's jib referred to being 334 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: able to identify the nationality of the ship based on 335 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: the shape of their jib before you could actually see 336 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: the flag they were flying. So I just wanted to 337 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: drop that out there, correct my my past self, and 338 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: then then now we can move on. But it's awesome. 339 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: I'm really glad you brought this up because this stayed 340 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: with me and I want to give it a shout 341 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: out to one of the friends of the show on 342 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: Instagram who actually asked me nol to talk about this etymology. 343 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: You're right, the jib is a triangular sale that is 344 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 1: between the four top mast head and what's called the 345 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: jib boom. Uh. So it's weird triangle in the front 346 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: of the ship for sailing. And some have more than 347 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: one jib. But like you said, every country had its 348 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 1: own style of jib, and so you could see you 349 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: could see a ship and say, well, that's a Spanish 350 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,360 Speaker 1: ship or that's a Portuguese ship. It didn't become an 351 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: idiom the way we use it today until eighteen twenty 352 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 1: four when Sir Walter Scott said in a book Scott 353 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: not Raleigh, thank you. Well, we got our Walters. We 354 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: got our Walters, we got our Walter. There's a lot 355 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: of just to keep in Saint Ronan's well this uh, 356 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: this guy Walter says, quote if she disliked what the 357 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,959 Speaker 1: sailor calls the cut of their jib, and it's and 358 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: then later it becomes kind of phrenological, right, kind of physiognomic, 359 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: the idea, the idea that you could perceive something inborn 360 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 1: about a per soon or an object based entirely on 361 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: its appearance. So I would say, dude, this is the 362 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: perfect time. This isn't even a tangent cut of your jip. 363 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: We explained it. Uh, we gotta we gotta another idiomatic 364 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: for the people episode. I think this would have been 365 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 1: a real good one for that put put a pin 366 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,239 Speaker 1: in that. For now. I think we're we're we're doing 367 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: another one. But lombroso much to your point. Been similarly 368 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: to to the way a psychic might rely on reading 369 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 1: someone's palm and the layout of the of the lines 370 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: and all of that to determine some future event or 371 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: some you know, prognosis about love or whatever it might be. Uh. 372 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: This gentleman believed he could tell whether someone was destined 373 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: for a particular lifestyle, for example, a life of crime, 374 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: based on the shape and arrangement of their facial features. Yeah. 375 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: He also said that criminals, again is classified by him, 376 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: were out of vistic, meaning they were evolutionary throwbacks. He 377 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: believed that criminals were closer to apes than they were 378 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: to human beings. And by apes, we mean like guerrillas, 379 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: because technically all of those are primates. Uh. He would 380 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: also talk at length because he was an avowed enthusiastic racist. 381 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 1: He would also talk at length about quote unquote savages, 382 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: and he thought anybody with anybody with the following features 383 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: and will read amount to you was given to being uncivilized, barbaric, 384 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: and criminal. He talked about oblique eyelids, which he called 385 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: a Mongolian characteristic. He also referred to the projection of 386 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: the lower face and jaws, something he classified as prognathism, 387 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: which he associated with people of African descent. Yeah, and 388 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: then he also had a lot of trash to talk 389 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: about noses spoiler alert, folks, noses that looked like his 390 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: are the best, and knows and knows is that it 391 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 1: don't look like his are the worst. He specifically was 392 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: pretty focused on nostril size, at the idea of larger 393 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: the larger the nostrils, the more inclined to uh raping 394 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 1: and pillaging you might be. Yeah, yeah, anyway, Thank goodness 395 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:34,199 Speaker 1: he didn't steer history too far askew and that his 396 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: ideas were later debunked. So physiognomy surprisingly came very close 397 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: to changing the course of science and research in human history. 398 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: Charles Darwin almost this is a true story, Charles Darwin. 399 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: Yes that Charles almost did not hop on the HMS Beagle, 400 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: which meant he almost didn't write about evolution because the 401 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: captain of the beagle. A guy named Robert fitz Roy 402 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: was a fan of this learning about people via their 403 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: facial features thing, this whole debacle. Uh, and he loved 404 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: Lavatar And when he first met Charles Darwin, Captain fitz 405 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: Roy was like, I don't like your nose, though you might. 406 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: You kind of got a criminal nose. Bro, I don't 407 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 1: know if I want you on the ship. Follow your 408 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 1: nose right off this this vessel, sir. He believed that 409 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: the shape of Darwin's nose inclined him to be less 410 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: resilient on a long sea journey. Yeah, he was like, uh, 411 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: you got you got a low energy nose, my guy, 412 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: in the way that Darwin put it was. But I 413 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 1: think he was afterwards well satisfied that my nose had 414 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: spoken false beautiful. And also shout out to our pal 415 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: Jack O'Brien of Daily Zeitgeist. We always have him and 416 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: Miles Gray over to talk about weird historical flexes. Jack 417 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: is the guy who told us that Darwin prided himself 418 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: on eating a sample of every animal he discovered. Is 419 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 1: a hungry, hungry hippo. So we've got this setup. We 420 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: know now that phrenology is descended from older equally flawed 421 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: attempts at science. We tease this in part one, and 422 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: we wanted to give everybody a heads up because this 423 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: is uncomfortable for many people, but it's true. Phrenology was 424 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: used to justify some unclean, absolutely unforgivable stereotypes, and a 425 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: lot of it. Again, phrenology reached its heyday in the 426 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: United States. A lot of the converse Asian round phrenology 427 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: was used two perpetuate slavery. It was used to combat abolition, 428 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: which is interesting because you also mentioned in the last 429 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: episode been that it took off so well in America 430 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: because of our kind of attitude of like self determination 431 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,239 Speaker 1: and like being able to kind of like you know, 432 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: become our best selves in the new world or whatever. 433 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: And uh, it was used to kind of bolster those 434 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: kind of feelings of like, you know, empowerment for the individual. 435 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: It was also used to completely disempower, disenfranchise, and in 436 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: fact enslave or at the very least, you know, give 437 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: a pseudo scientific um justification for enslaving other, you know, people, 438 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: including including indigenous populations, including the actual Americans who were 439 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,239 Speaker 1: here long before the Europeans. So the US as an 440 00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: institution in the eighteen thirties and eighteen forties, during the 441 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: height of phrenology, this institution was trying to justify the 442 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: continuation of slavery, although many many people were saying, hey, 443 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: every human being should be treated equally, right, didn't we 444 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: have a whole thing about the pursuit of happiness? Several 445 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: people said, and several pro slavery forces said, ass paperwork, 446 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: don't sweat it. Let's introduce and I want a really 447 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: nasty sound cue for this guy because I don't respect him. 448 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: Let's introduce Charles Caldwell. There it is double thumbs down 449 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: from Mr Max Williams, who Charles called who Charles Caldwell 450 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: was a key player in this pro slavery movement. He 451 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: used phrenology as a way to justify enslavement of human beings. 452 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: And he said that people from the African diaspora, no 453 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: matter you know which specific part of that huge continent, 454 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: details aside, he said, anybody who is somehow descended from 455 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: the African continent had to be enslaved, because he said, 456 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: I've looked at a bunch of skulls, I've I've rubbed 457 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: a bunch of bumps on a bunch of craniums, and 458 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: I went to Paris to do it. So believe me, 459 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: I went to Paris, studied the muse a different any gay, 460 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: I mean, come on, I know I'm the guy you 461 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: should listen to. And it was one of those confirmation 462 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: biased things where it was exactly the data or the 463 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: pseudo data or whatever you wanna call it, that folks 464 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: needed to justify their behavior. So in thirty seven he 465 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: put out a conclusion um stating that skulls of African 466 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: people um again, which is in a of itself, an 467 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: incredibly generalized view of a massive, very um diverse and 468 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: rich culture of of people. That the skulls, the skull 469 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: shape based on the study of phrenology, belied a certain 470 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: tamable nous, a certain need to be subjugated, a certain 471 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: passiveness that that really wanted to be um exploited like 472 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: like not exploited, like it was like this is what 473 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: this is what they want, this is what they're they're 474 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: made for the people in question here, which again incredibly 475 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: narrow view. It's absurd. First of all, it's completely self 476 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: serving to those who would have loved to continue to 477 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: own and exploit slaves for their own purposes for as 478 00:32:52,160 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: long as humanly possible. Yeah. Absolutely, And this unfortunately added 479 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: fuel to the fire of the pro slavery institutions, and 480 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: it gave slave owners and supporters of chattel slavery, it 481 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: gave them something that appeared to them very much like 482 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: quantitative AMMO. They felt like they could point to this 483 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: and say, oh, it's not me, these are just the facts. 484 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: You know, it's a very dangerous thing. You're probably wondering 485 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: at this point how phrenology was applied to Native American populations. Well, 486 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: we have more bad news for you. There's a guy 487 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: named Samuel Morton and uh, several other people. This was 488 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: a movement who used phrenology to justify things like the 489 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: trail of tears, to justify removing these communities from the 490 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: land they had lived on for thousands of years. No, 491 00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: I'm thinking specifically about a book called Crania America, know, 492 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: which Morton wrote in eighteen thirty nine. And I want 493 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 1: to give a big shout out to Kate Tatowski, who 494 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: over at Vassar wrote phrenology and scientific racism in the 495 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. Tatowski gives us a very um somber view 496 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: of Morton's actions. A lot of good articles that are 497 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: there on that blog for the archaeology department over a 498 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: Vasser highly recommend giving that a browse some good rabbit 499 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: holes to to fall into. But yeah, this was all 500 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: a way of using quote unquote science to determine that 501 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: another race was inferior. M Yeah, he said there are 502 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: natural differences. In his mind, there were four quote unquote 503 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: separate species, and he studied. He was like rubbing up 504 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: a bunch of skulls, right, and then he said, based 505 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: on my vibes, because vibes they were. This was not objective, 506 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: he said. He said, the minds of the Native American 507 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: populations are different than that of the white men. And uh, 508 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: he got cited in so much propaganda because there were 509 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: Western settlers right making their way toward what we call 510 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: California and the Pacific Northwest today, and they wanted to 511 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: hear good things about themselves, so they would read this 512 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: and they would say, oh, it's not me, it's the science. Yeah. 513 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: They referred to uh, these people in the Native American 514 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 1: people as um being quote adverse to cultivation and slow 515 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: in acquiring knowledge, so just basically completely character assassinating them 516 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: in just about every way. Yeah, I like that phrase 517 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:58,240 Speaker 1: character assassination. Yeah. Another fan of Morton's work, President Andrew Jackson, 518 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 1: that as Yeah, so phrenology, that's the dark side. It 519 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: did a lot of bad stuff, and it supported a 520 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: lot of evil actions by people against other people. But 521 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: we do have to recognize that this is one of 522 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: the earlier trains of thought that led to some actual breakthroughs, 523 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: the recognization that different parts of the brain have different functions. 524 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: And this is really exciting to me. No, I mean, 525 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: of course phrenologists didn't ever figure out what those actual 526 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: functions were, but the concept the different parts of your 527 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,839 Speaker 1: brain can do different things pretty amazing. Yeah, and and 528 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 1: like accurate, you know. And in the same way we 529 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: were talking about there were parts of the ground word 530 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: for phrenology that weren't like that far off. It was 531 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: just kind of taking something that ended up being true 532 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:09,359 Speaker 1: to an iological conclusion. M m. Yeah. You know. Now 533 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: we we know that different regions of the brain control 534 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 1: things like motor skills or language or perception, right, nurse, 535 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 1: you know, was it appropri exception the sense of one's 536 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: body and space? That's right, Yeah, Like that's that's kind 537 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 1: of the root of a lot of modern day science. 538 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: We call it neuroscience, and that's where we take the 539 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:45,879 Speaker 1: final act of phrenology. Here. Contemporary neuroscience continues to kind 540 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:51,879 Speaker 1: of wrestle with some of the accidental progress made by phrenology. 541 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: You know what it reminds me of I was thinking 542 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 1: about this. I didn't want to tell you till we're 543 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: on air. But like alchemy, right, Alchemy a bunch of 544 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: people who thought they were learning magic, right, they thought 545 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: they were doing sorcery, and then they accidentally became the 546 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: predecessor of chemistry. I mean that how it goes, you know. 547 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: I mean it's this, you know, a trial and error 548 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: thinking you're pursuing one thing and then happy accidents lead 549 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: to another discipline entirely. Um. See that in technology, We 550 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: see that in you know, innovations of all kinds. Even 551 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: if the original thing is is entirely kind of gross 552 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: or bad, it doesn't mean that it can't lead to 553 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 1: interesting discoveries that can then be used in positive ways 554 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:39,800 Speaker 1: down the line. Yeah, and this is this is pretty interesting. 555 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,319 Speaker 1: There's a guy who has now appeared across several of 556 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: our shows still, the Harvard Psychologists Professor Edwin G. Boring. 557 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: We mentioned him in Standardized Testing as well, so old 558 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: Doc boring In he writes a book called History of 559 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: Experimental Psychology, and he says, quote, it is almost correct 560 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: to say that scientific psychology was born of phrenology out 561 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: of wedlock with science. I think that's so poetic. The 562 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 1: idea of being born out of wedlock is usually considered 563 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 1: kind of like a bad thing or in some way unnatural, 564 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: or like the idea of being a bastard or whatever. 565 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: You know, that's a negative term, being unholy or something. 566 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean that that person can't go on 567 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: to do great things. And it all goes back to 568 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: this understanding that physiological characteristics of the brain can influence behavior, 569 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: and that behavior can alter our physiology. You know, I'm thinking, 570 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 1: for instance, the best examples of mind over matter that 571 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: I have ever encountered have been London taxi drivers who 572 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,760 Speaker 1: take a test called the Knowledge, which you know, doesn't 573 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: allow them to use Who's any sort of GPS or 574 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 1: any sort of maps. They have to keep it in 575 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 1: their head and over time, over decades, the physical structure 576 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,399 Speaker 1: of their brain changes. You can also see this with 577 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 1: certain monastic orders. Your thoughts can alter parts of your brain, 578 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:21,239 Speaker 1: and the principle is the same, the idea that the 579 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 1: mind is not a uniform thing but more kind of 580 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: a mix tape of these independent wait for it, faculties. 581 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 1: Dr gall loved calling stuff faculties. Yeah. For example, like 582 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:39,319 Speaker 1: any sixty one. A French surgeon named Paul Broca, who's 583 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: also an anthropologist, demonstrated that by damaging a particular region 584 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: of the brain just about four square centimeters large, it 585 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: can actually make a person unable to speak coherently, but 586 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: it doesn't affect their comprehension of other people's speech. It's 587 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 1: the same way like you know, if you have like 588 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: a stroke, for example, it can affect your bill to speak, 589 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean that you can't completely understand what 590 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 1: others are saying. Like I think of the character and 591 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: breaking bad Um Hector Salamanca, who this isn't a spoiler 592 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: because you meet him at the beginning and he's already 593 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: liked this. Uh. He has some sort of events that 594 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 1: leads him leaves him um somewhat paralyzed and also lacking 595 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: the ability to speak, but he clearly can understand everything 596 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,400 Speaker 1: that everyone is saying to him and can communicate with 597 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: a series of bell dings, a little yeah, exactly, a 598 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: little lobby bell that's sort of like wrapped around is 599 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: his wheelchair. And he can also do the thing where 600 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,880 Speaker 1: he points to letter. He you know, does a series 601 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 1: of beeples depending on what letters someone's pointing to, and 602 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,759 Speaker 1: he can communicate perfectly well. Another example of this in 603 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,560 Speaker 1: history is the story of a New England railroad worker 604 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,440 Speaker 1: named Phineas Gage. There is in fact a full episode 605 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 1: about this on our sister podcast, Stuff You Miss in 606 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 1: History class who got an iron bar like like like 607 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: final destination of the styles rocketed into his his his 608 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: his head, and it peers his brain right through his cheekbone, 609 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: exited to the top of the skull. Not only did 610 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,799 Speaker 1: he live, but his sense of reasoning and language were 611 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,320 Speaker 1: completely intact. But it did change kind of his dude, 612 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,320 Speaker 1: it turned him to a pill. It's a true story. 613 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: I have been fascinated with this. I'm so glad we're 614 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 1: mentioning it. Before his injury, Phineas what snow around like swell, dude, 615 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 1: you know you could kick it. You cant hang with him. 616 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: He was genteel, he was amicable, but afterwards this guy 617 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:36,920 Speaker 1: was like always down to fight. He was full of vices. 618 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 1: He was super irresponsible and flaky. He started cursing like 619 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: a sailor as the idiom goes, and his behavior was 620 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,879 Speaker 1: so dangerous that women in the area were warned not 621 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: to be around him. Basically calling back to our etymology 622 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,520 Speaker 1: reference that iron bar changed the cut of his jib 623 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 1: in a very real way. Yeah yeah, yeah. And this 624 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 1: guy named Antonio Demasio is a neuroscientists the University of 625 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: Iowa College of Medicine actually studied the Gauge case. Demasio 626 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,680 Speaker 1: and his wife, who's also a neuroscientist, recently created a 627 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: three D image of Gauge's injury UM, and you know, 628 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: kind of mapped the bars path through his brain. They 629 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,799 Speaker 1: found that it had damaged the same region of his 630 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 1: brain that had been injured in patients of THEIRS who 631 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:33,560 Speaker 1: had very very similar results. Yea, and fun call back here. 632 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 1: In eighteen a lot of people came to examine the 633 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 1: case of Phineas Gauge, and one of those people was 634 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:50,600 Speaker 1: a phrenology expert, a disciple of the Fowlers called Nelson 635 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:55,600 Speaker 1: Sizer and Dimazio. Actually, Um had some pretty interesting things 636 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 1: to say about what parts of you know, the unit 637 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: working of the brain. Phrenologists got right. He had this 638 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,480 Speaker 1: to say in an article from Smithsonian mag called Facing 639 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:11,040 Speaker 1: a Bumpy History about phrenology. He said that the work 640 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:15,200 Speaker 1: of phrenologists was in fact, quote quite astounding for their time, 641 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 1: but that they quote did not understand that even the 642 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,200 Speaker 1: areas we have identified, quite different from their organs, are 643 00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:28,040 Speaker 1: interdependent parts of a larger brain system. Yeah, there are. 644 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 1: It's almost like fingers on a hand, right, Like your 645 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,799 Speaker 1: fingers can move independently, but they're all part of a 646 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:40,160 Speaker 1: larger superstructure. And you know, it's pretty amazing that people 647 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:44,439 Speaker 1: could come up with these concepts, and it's also very 648 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:50,960 Speaker 1: disappointing that they misdirected these innovations. Uh yeah, for a 649 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,040 Speaker 1: long time. You can argue again, And I think I've 650 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,000 Speaker 1: got harped on this in the last episode. By sheer 651 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:02,120 Speaker 1: force of will and and enthusiasm and confidence, they probably 652 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,920 Speaker 1: set back the course of science quite quite a few clicks. 653 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,280 Speaker 1: I was trying. I was thinking about this as well. Man, 654 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,879 Speaker 1: the the like, um, what do you call it? Meditation 655 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,439 Speaker 1: for the day for me after we finished part one 656 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:21,000 Speaker 1: was may I always have the strident confidence of the 657 00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:28,160 Speaker 1: aggressively wrong, Like it's like to espouse my crackpot theories 658 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 1: even if I'm not quite sure they're true. Right, let 659 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,399 Speaker 1: me turn my correctness down to one and my confidence 660 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,680 Speaker 1: up to a twelve. This science continues, though, science that 661 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: is in some ways um precedented by phrenology. There was 662 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:51,600 Speaker 1: a recent study at the University of Oxford where researchers 663 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:58,160 Speaker 1: use their own brain scanning software to ask empirically for 664 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:03,160 Speaker 1: the first time ever, whether there is truly any correlation 665 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,040 Speaker 1: between the bumps on your head and the aspects of 666 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:10,799 Speaker 1: your personality, between the outside of this car you call 667 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 1: your body and the interior engine of your mind. And 668 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,000 Speaker 1: this is pretty interesting. I think this is something people 669 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 1: are waiting for. What did they used m r I 670 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,200 Speaker 1: brain analysis? Yeah, they use the kind of software that 671 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:30,439 Speaker 1: does brain analyzes um of of of mri I UH 672 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:35,600 Speaker 1: data and these the software would typically be used to 673 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,160 Speaker 1: kind of do a cross section of the parts of 674 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,759 Speaker 1: the skull, allowing analysis to be done on just the 675 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,239 Speaker 1: brain UM. But what they did was they kind of 676 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:49,480 Speaker 1: reverse engineer the software, at least reversed its instructions to 677 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:55,000 Speaker 1: allow the skull to exclusively be mapped and UH and 678 00:46:55,000 --> 00:47:00,640 Speaker 1: and dissected electronically. Yeah, and what they and of course 679 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:04,640 Speaker 1: proves that phrenology is a pseudoscience. It's quackery of the 680 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,960 Speaker 1: highest order. But they they did find some pretty funny 681 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,680 Speaker 1: associations when they were looking at these brain bumps, as 682 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,279 Speaker 1: he said, hackey, their software. They said there was a 683 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:22,360 Speaker 1: strong positive association between the trait a massiveness, the arousal 684 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:27,880 Speaker 1: or feeling of sexual desire, and words. This means that, uh. 685 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,640 Speaker 1: And again take this as it is. This is just 686 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,319 Speaker 1: one study, folks, but we thought this was delightful. Uh 687 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 1: and and very funny. What they found in plain English 688 00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:43,439 Speaker 1: is that the more sexual partners a person has had, 689 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:49,719 Speaker 1: the more likely they are to have verbal fluency in 690 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:57,600 Speaker 1: a word naming task. Fascinating, weird, weird, They're just bombs this. 691 00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,279 Speaker 1: This topic just kind of keeps on going. I proposed, Ben, 692 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 1: there's there is there's some stuff in here that I 693 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:04,640 Speaker 1: don't think we're gonna get to. But I do propose 694 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,520 Speaker 1: that we end or at least come close to ending 695 00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,520 Speaker 1: um in stwards, wrapping up with something that we sort 696 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,200 Speaker 1: of teeth. At the beginning of the episode, we promised 697 00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,400 Speaker 1: we were going to get back to Mr. T. And 698 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:18,400 Speaker 1: that's t for Tarantino. Um. You may recall we spoke uh. 699 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,080 Speaker 1: I believe we all gave him thumbs downs and booze uh, 700 00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:26,480 Speaker 1: Mr and Mr Caldwell, Right, yeah, yep, we're going to 701 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,919 Speaker 1: Charles Caldwell. Yeah, we're going to Django, aren't we going 702 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:34,000 Speaker 1: to Django? Charles Caldwell was a doctor from Kentucky who 703 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,960 Speaker 1: was a big fan of slave ownership, uh and a 704 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,400 Speaker 1: big fan of phrenology and and was a big reason 705 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:41,400 Speaker 1: or it was he was the person to travel to 706 00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,960 Speaker 1: Paris and all that stuff to kind of, you know, 707 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:48,759 Speaker 1: bring that medical fad uh to the masses here in 708 00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,680 Speaker 1: the United States in an effort to justify the barbaric 709 00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,640 Speaker 1: practice of slave ownership. And you'll recall the character of 710 00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,279 Speaker 1: Calvin Candy you may know from the memes. He's he's 711 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,160 Speaker 1: the one that's got his pinky up and making that 712 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,040 Speaker 1: little face, you know. Leonardo DiCaprio, I actually saw a 713 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 1: funny thing that miles of Daily Zeitgeis pointed out where 714 00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,560 Speaker 1: it was like an image of a poster you could 715 00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:15,719 Speaker 1: buy that's just that image, um. And he argued that 716 00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,440 Speaker 1: that image, devoid of meme text, is really just an 717 00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,080 Speaker 1: image of of an excited slave owner. He's probably just 718 00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,960 Speaker 1: talking about slave stuff. But you'll recall that that character 719 00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,840 Speaker 1: in the movie he he he breaks out a skull 720 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:34,080 Speaker 1: of of what he describes as as an African man. Yeah, yeah, Candy, gentleman, 721 00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:38,560 Speaker 1: you will have my curiosity, but now you have my attention, 722 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:43,440 Speaker 1: he said to phrenology, because again it made that character, 723 00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,799 Speaker 1: who was based on real people, feel good about the 724 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:53,600 Speaker 1: evil things it was doing. And uh, Tarantino, excellent, excellent writer. 725 00:49:53,840 --> 00:50:00,440 Speaker 1: It's very much aware of this. Phrenology is thoroughly debunked. Obvious, Lee. 726 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:05,800 Speaker 1: If you are rubbing people's skulls, you're not gonna learn 727 00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,560 Speaker 1: whether they are good at math or whether they are 728 00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:17,120 Speaker 1: talented linguistically. But it was so popular across the entire world, 729 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,280 Speaker 1: not just the US, not just Europe. We're talking about India, 730 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:25,120 Speaker 1: Australia and so on. And Candy, as you said, is 731 00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:29,719 Speaker 1: definitely based on Charles called Well. And you have to 732 00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:35,040 Speaker 1: wonder what called Well would have thought about Django Well. 733 00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:40,000 Speaker 1: I mean, aside from the bloody end revenge fantasy style 734 00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:43,279 Speaker 1: of of of his character and many of his compatriots, 735 00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:45,440 Speaker 1: I bet he would have been proud of the depiction. 736 00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:50,320 Speaker 1: You know, I think if he was the same version 737 00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:52,080 Speaker 1: of himself that he was in those days, I think 738 00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:54,719 Speaker 1: he probably would have been like, yeah, that was a badass, 739 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:56,719 Speaker 1: because you know, he brings out that skull, he hacks 740 00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:59,440 Speaker 1: away at the back of it. He points to the 741 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,600 Speaker 1: size of a particular region or ridge as being a 742 00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:10,080 Speaker 1: indicative of submissiveness. Umame ability. That yeah, tame ability. Another 743 00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:12,359 Speaker 1: one of those horrible things that we talked about called 744 00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,480 Speaker 1: Well himself actually espousing. So this was all real stuff 745 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,400 Speaker 1: Tarantino pulled from history to you know, really flesh out 746 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,280 Speaker 1: this character. And I think it's a It's a fascinating character, 747 00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,640 Speaker 1: absolutely abhorrent, but really well done and well played by 748 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,360 Speaker 1: by DiCaprio because he just kind of despised the guy 749 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,480 Speaker 1: from the moment he walks on the scene. But I 750 00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:33,520 Speaker 1: don't think he's doing anything that Carl himself wouldn't have 751 00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:37,879 Speaker 1: thought was like yeah, rights me also called well as 752 00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:40,880 Speaker 1: a as a traveler to the modern age, would have 753 00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,319 Speaker 1: been fascinated if we said this in another show. He 754 00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:47,000 Speaker 1: would have been amazed by the idea of moving pictures. 755 00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,439 Speaker 1: He would have freaked out when he knew you could 756 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:54,160 Speaker 1: get sentnamon easily anyway, Uh, this is this is the 757 00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,920 Speaker 1: end of our series on phrenology. We hope that you 758 00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:03,280 Speaker 1: enjoyed it. And as Noll said, we are scratching the surface. 759 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:07,520 Speaker 1: There are many, many, many other characters and events in 760 00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:15,000 Speaker 1: history that are oddly related to this strange, distinct pseudo science. 761 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:17,640 Speaker 1: We can't wait to hear what you think. Thank you 762 00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:21,759 Speaker 1: so much for listening. Thanks also to our super producer, 763 00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,879 Speaker 1: Uh Noel, you gave him the street name smooth Head 764 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:30,120 Speaker 1: Mr Max Smooth called smooth skull excuse me, which actually 765 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:32,400 Speaker 1: if you, if you're a if you're a Fallout player 766 00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:34,839 Speaker 1: like I know Max is, I think that's what the 767 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:38,360 Speaker 1: super mutants refer to humans as not smooth skulls, but 768 00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,640 Speaker 1: smooth skins, So it's appropriate there, Max Williams for the 769 00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:45,920 Speaker 1: whim and huge thanks to Max's bro, the very talented 770 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,600 Speaker 1: Alex Williams. Long may you wander on your sojourn of 771 00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:52,839 Speaker 1: this fair uh country of ours. Alex, hope you're well 772 00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:57,879 Speaker 1: for composing this banging bob. Thanks also to Christopher Osciotis, 773 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:01,280 Speaker 1: thanks to Eve's Jeff Coat, thanks to our awesome research 774 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,279 Speaker 1: associate Zach Williams. Can't wait to have him on the 775 00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:09,880 Speaker 1: show one day soon and of course, of course thanks 776 00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:14,600 Speaker 1: to avowed for knowlogists Jonathan Strickland a k. The Quister. 777 00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:17,359 Speaker 1: Do you think he's going to hear that? I don't 778 00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:27,439 Speaker 1: think he'll hear We'll see you nice timebox. For more 779 00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:29,960 Speaker 1: podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, 780 00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,080 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows