1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of my Heart Media, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, Heed, as 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: even represent my own and nothing contained in this show 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: should be used his medical advice or encouragement to use 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. So my guest 10 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: today is Dr Dennis McKenna. He's the famed ethnobodanist, ethno pharmacologist, 11 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: anthropologist who has been studying psychedelics and plant medicines for 12 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:00,639 Speaker 1: over fifty years. He's authored and co authored dozens, if 13 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: not hundreds, of articles and a number of books, both 14 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,279 Speaker 1: on his own and with others, including his famed brother 15 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 1: Terrence McKenna. The impetus for doing this interview now is 16 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: that a book that he wrote some years ago is 17 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: about to be reissued. It's called The Brotherhood of the 18 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: Screaming Abyss, and it's a memoir by Dennis that also 19 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,839 Speaker 1: includes a long account of his relationship with his brother 20 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:28,199 Speaker 1: and the respective journeys together and apart. So, Dennis, thank 21 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: you ever so much for joining me and my listeners 22 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: on Psychoactive. Well, thank you Ethan for inviting me. It's 23 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: a pleasure, so thanks, thank you. Well, just let me 24 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: just start off. You know, in part want to be 25 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: talking about, right, is your brother Terrence. And I realized 26 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: on some level it's got to be awfully irritating to 27 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: have a famous brother and a famous brother in the 28 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: same field, more or less an intersecting field. Yet who also, 29 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: you know because of the last names, obviously you've benefited 30 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: from that familial connection, but obviously there was an intense 31 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: personal relationship between that. But before we delve into the 32 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: origins of that, which I really want to get into, 33 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: because you really get into in the book. You know, 34 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: when you first wrote this book, I mean, you're fairly 35 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: modest about like you know, when when what you said, 36 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: when all, when all comes down to, ultimately, people pay 37 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: more attention to me because you know, my brother was Terrence. 38 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: But I wonder over the last ten years, which is 39 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: when I've only known you over the last ten years, 40 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: when we crossed paths of various conferences. I mean, it 41 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: seems to me that your name has become much more 42 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: prominent as the Psychelics renaissance has kind of blasted off. 43 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: And so I wonder if you were writing this memoir today, 44 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: you know, how do you think it would be different 45 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: in terms of your reflecting on your relationship with Terrence 46 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: and its impact on your life? Well? Uh, not that different, actually, 47 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean it will be different, and the 48 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: difference will be reflected in this afterwards that I wrote 49 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: it effectively, and their chapter another about fifty to sixty 50 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: page chapter kind of looking back the last ten years 51 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: from the date that it was that it was published, 52 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: and even back the last twenty years or so since 53 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: Terence passed on, because the original book basically ends more 54 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: or less when Terence passed on in two thousands, you know, 55 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: and you you mentioned that, you know, it must be 56 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: it must be irritating to you know, be the brother 57 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: of Terence mckinnick, because he gets all the attention, you know, 58 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: And uh, in a way that's still true. I mean, 59 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: Terence is probably got more Twitter followers than I do. 60 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: Not bad for a guy who has been dead for 61 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: twenty two years, you know, but I don't really resent 62 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: it at all, because Terence and I were, you know, 63 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: we were intensely interested in the same things, but different 64 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: compliment nary aspects of the same thing. So we didn't 65 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: really have any kind of rivalry. We were competing for attention, 66 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: and I mean what fame we had was basically from 67 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: our books. And and in Terence's case, he was very 68 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: much on the lecture circuit and I was not so much. 69 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: And that was really by choice, you know, I preferred 70 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: to be in the background. I'm I'm inherently you know, 71 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: by nature, I'm kind of an introvert, and I like 72 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: to be in the background. You know. One of the 73 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: things that's interesting is you really part of the thing 74 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: about your book, The Brotherhood Book of the Screening Abyss, 75 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:44,239 Speaker 1: is your your skign of like reflecting and psychoanalyzing about 76 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: your life and your family and your parents and and 77 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: Terrence and you know, obviously you know, you're he's four 78 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: years older. He's born in forty six, You're born in 79 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty, but you describe at a young age about 80 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: him basically being a fairly torturous older brother. I mean, 81 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: you know, you know tickling you, scaring the hell out 82 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: of you. What he says, What if that thing never 83 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: oppose my will? He says to you, and he freaks 84 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: you out about that. Nobody people. And look, I'm the 85 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 1: oldest of four, so I'm probably guilty of some of 86 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: the stuff that Terence was guilty of. But I don't 87 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: think I was quite as mean as he was back then. Well, 88 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: I think that the way, you know, the dynamic was 89 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: between us back then is not that atypical from little 90 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: brother to older brother, you know, kind of interactions and dynamics, 91 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: especially when the gap in ages four years. I mean 92 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 1: that's a kind of a critical gap because that means, 93 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: you know, as we moved into education, like when I 94 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: was in junior high school, he was in high school. 95 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 1: When I was in high school, he'd already left. But 96 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: I described those things. You know, you write a memoir 97 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: and you about what you remember, and and in my 98 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: early time growing up, that's what I remember, you know, 99 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: when when Terrence and I were together, I also remember 100 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: a lot of good times. You know, we had great times. 101 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: He was you know, he was the big brother. He 102 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: was you know, my parents favorite for years at least, 103 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: I was convinced so, and they went out of their 104 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: way to make sure he had anything he wanted in 105 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: terms of, you know, educational opportunities, support, you know, for 106 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: his hobbies and so on. I mean that later I 107 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: got those things, but I was happy to tag alog. 108 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: But Dennis, look if I digg a little bit here 109 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: is because obviously all of this you say in the book, 110 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: and the love between the two of you and his 111 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: profound influence both on you and more broadly, just comes 112 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: through clearly. But I mean you say in the book, 113 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 1: and other people point this out that it's not just Terrence, 114 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: but it's the two of you whom I be described 115 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: as the Johnny Apple seeds the psilocybin. I mean, you guys, 116 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: when you come back from the Amazon in the seventies 117 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: and you produced this book, The Magic Mushroom Grower's Guide, 118 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: I think inventies six, which is really kind of the 119 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: first how to guide to how to, you know, use 120 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: mushroom spores to grow you make your own marijuanat home 121 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: in a very simple way and thereby essentially and I 122 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: think I think it might be the most single most 123 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: important thing that either of the two of you ever did. Um. 124 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: But just tell us a little bit about that book, 125 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: which the two of you and I guess with another 126 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: fellow and Jeremy Bigwood played a role as well. But 127 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: tell us how that book came about and why and 128 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: its impact. Yeah, I can't do that. So some people 129 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: even recently have said, you know, have been at pains 130 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: to point out that we were at the first ones 131 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: to do that, you know, And I never really claimed 132 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: that we were. People were experimenting, they were trying to 133 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: figure it out. I think what was different was that, uh, 134 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: we were the first to publish a book that was 135 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: a simple method that got into many people's hands, and 136 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: that was the social impact of it, not that other 137 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: people were doing it at the time. Other people were 138 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: not publishing books about it or even talking about it. 139 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: And because it was illegal, it took a certain amount 140 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: of either foolishness or courage or both to publish that book. 141 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: And we did, and it had it had a an impact. 142 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 1: But I was not taught how to do this. I 143 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: puzzled it out. I was taking courses at Colorado State University. 144 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: I had been out to Harvard to see Shalties. I 145 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: wanted to work with Shalties. This was nine four and 146 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: Shaltis told me after I did by pilgrimage, he said, 147 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: you know, go back and take more chemistry and take 148 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: more taxonomy, because I thought I was going to study 149 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: higher plants. You know. Well, as it turned out, a 150 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:06,239 Speaker 1: friend of mine was the head of the botany greenhouse 151 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: at at c s U. When I went back to 152 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: c s U to take these additional courses, even though 153 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 1: it already got my degree, I took these additional courses 154 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: organic chemistry course, which turned out to be a revelation 155 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: because the teacher of that course was incredible mentor. And anyway, 156 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: I had access to this laboratory at Teaching Culture Laboratory, 157 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: so I had all the tools to mess around, and 158 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: I had the spores and then this paper and Michaelogia surface, 159 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: which was called by James P. San Antonio. It was 160 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: a USD researcher that was something like, you know a 161 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: simple method to grow a Garicus by s boris on 162 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: substrates of sterilized rye, you know, And basically I tried 163 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: that with the mushrooms and it worked, you know, so 164 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: that was the breakthrough. It just worked for this other species. 165 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: So then once we had that technique, you know, figured 166 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: out it reliably worked. I shared that with Terence. I 167 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: shortly after that finished my work at c SU, and 168 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: I moved to California and we actually set up growing 169 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: operations there and then published the book. And at some 170 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: point Terrence had already connected with Jeremy Bigwood, and I'm 171 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: not sure how he made that connection, but I think 172 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: it was from through Jonathan Ott, and Jeremy was a 173 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 1: part of that whole coterie of psychedelic enthusiasts at Evergreen 174 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: State College, out of which Paul Stabbits came, but then 175 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: also Jeremy and Jeremy, so that was the connection. And 176 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: Terence had had met Jeremy and Berkeley at some point 177 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 1: and invited him to be the photographer on the book 178 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: to photograph the methods. And then Terence's girlfriend and then 179 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: later his wife, Kat Harrison, was the illustrator, producing these 180 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: beautiful uh line drawings of the mushrooms, the life cycle 181 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: and all that. So that those were the four people 182 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: that generated the book, Terence and myself, Jeremy with the photographs, 183 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: and Cat as the as the artist. But you published 184 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: it under pseudonyms, right, well, yes, all pseudonyms, and I 185 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: thought it was ironic that. You know, in some ways, 186 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: Jeremy chose the pseudonym uh Eremaus the obscure. I used 187 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: to kill him, I said, is that a reflection of 188 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: the terrible photographs that you put in the book, because 189 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: they weren't really that good. They did the job, but then, uh, 190 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: you know, they weren't that great. They were they were 191 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: little and sort of money and so on, but they 192 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 1: did show how to do it. But he made up 193 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: for it with the beautiful color photographs and the color 194 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: insert for the first edition. You know, those were great. 195 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: I was really disappointed when they re published it under 196 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 1: a different company and they dropped those color photographs because well, 197 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: de's ly, as you mentioned, you and Terrence starting to 198 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: grow mushrooms as well. So were you making I mean, 199 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: imagine the statue limitations has got expired by now. Were 200 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 1: you making a lot of money selling mushrooms in those days? Uh? Well, 201 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 1: we were making money, you know. I wouldn't say a lot, 202 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: but we were. We're probably making enough that we didn't 203 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: have to, you know, have actual jobs a certain way. 204 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: That's something that Terence continued for for many years. But 205 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: he decided, you know, maybe that's maybe that's too edgy. 206 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: Maybe he didn't really want to do that. As his 207 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 1: fame grew he decided it was a good idea. It's 208 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: a step back from that. I mean, you also talk 209 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: about terrences. You know, time is you know sort of 210 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 1: you know, sending hasheesh or cannabis around the world and 211 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: having to be on the run as a fugitive for 212 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: a few years. But going going back to the book 213 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,199 Speaker 1: book again and your and your and your youth and 214 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 1: the influences you talk about, I mean, you also talk 215 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: about growing up as Catholics. That's how you until certain 216 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: age you're a good Catholic boy. But you also have 217 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: an encounter with a Catholic priest who does what you know, 218 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: many Catholic priests have become into the floor. Do just 219 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: just just tell our list is a little bit about 220 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: your your Catholic childhood and your encounter to which you 221 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: seem to respond to feeling like it wasn't all that traumatic. 222 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,839 Speaker 1: And my encounter with the priest was not all that 223 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: traumatic because I was so clueless. Basically, I was I 224 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: think about eight years old, maybe a little older than that, 225 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: but I didn't realize I was being abused, you know, 226 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I lived close to the rectory. I used 227 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: to go over and hang out with the priests there. 228 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: There were other priests there usually, and there were some 229 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: some of them were pretty cool, you know. I mean 230 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: they were like Jesuits and they had you know, they 231 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: were intellectuals. Father I won't say his name. I think 232 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: I call him father Dad in the book. But he 233 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: was not like that. But he was also he was interesting. 234 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: He had been an engineer before he'd been a priest, 235 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: and you know, and he liked the altar boys. And 236 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: now now I have a better idea just why he 237 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: liked the altar boys. And I don't know how many 238 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: of them he actually molested. But but you know, the 239 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: way it happened with us is I confided in him that, 240 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: you know, I was ticklish, and I was very ticklish, 241 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: still am ticklish, you know, and I confided this, and 242 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: then but he said, well, well I can help you 243 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: get over that. So you know, we went into the 244 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: basement and I disrobed at least mostly, and he kind 245 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: of touched me all over. He didn't penetrate me, there 246 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: was no nothing like that. It was just you know, 247 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: it's kind of a weird massage, you know, And again, 248 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: I'm working in the assumption that he's helping me get 249 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: over being ticklish. So I was not alarmed, you know, 250 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: at all, or didn't really think in terms of abuse 251 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 1: and so on what was going on in his that 252 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. I suppose he was getting the charge 253 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: out of it. But you know, it took me like 254 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: I didn't even think about it for years, you know, 255 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: and then suddenly one day it dawned on me. Man, 256 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: I was being abused, you know, But at the time, 257 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: I was not traumatized. And Dennis, in all of your 258 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: thousands of psycholic experience, who is with different types of 259 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: mushrooms in Ayahuaska and d MT and everything else. I mean, 260 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: have there been times when processing either you know, terrences 261 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: tormenting and torturing you or this experience of the priest 262 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: or other traumatic things of Chilode kind of came up 263 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: and got processed for you or was that never really 264 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: because I don't I don't come across references that, I 265 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: mean when I was reading the book to that sort 266 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: of processing of these kind of early things. Yeah, they 267 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: don't really, they haven't come up you know, in my 268 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: in my psychedelic experience. It's probably because apart from that, 269 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: you know, and apart from from Terence's abuse and torture, 270 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: But I didn't really experience those things as trauma. I wasn't. 271 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 1: I may have been traumatized by other other factors, but 272 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,479 Speaker 1: I don't look back on it and think, you know, 273 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: I'm I'm screwed up because of childhood traumas. Actually, my childhood, 274 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: I would say our childhood was was remarkably normal and 275 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: free of that kind of thing. I mean, I think 276 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 1: there was always dysfunctionalities and in families, but in general, 277 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: I mean, my father and mother were not abusive, you know, 278 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: and they were very loving and supportive. At the same time, 279 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: Terence and I you know, pushed back against them, Terence 280 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: particularly on all kinds of fronts. I mean, I'm sure 281 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,959 Speaker 1: that we, you know, made their lives miserable in many ways, 282 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: you know. I mean you described Terence at point like 283 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, at one point you say, you know, 284 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: in some respects, he was unforgiving, you know, when it 285 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 1: once you once he decided, you know, you know, he 286 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: had ridden you off, that was it, and not only empathetic. 287 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: And he also described at a very young age him 288 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: cutting off your father like emotionally in a way that's 289 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: never really recovered, I guess, never really recovered, never really 290 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: got over that. That's right. And at the age of four, 291 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:27,439 Speaker 1: and this is not a teenage thing. This is at 292 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: the age of four or five or something, right, right, 293 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: right exactly, there was an incident which I'd rather not 294 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: describe in graphic detail, but but you know, it led 295 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: to an estrangement on some emotional level between him and 296 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: my dad, and I think at at a certain point 297 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: he crossed the threshold there where he came to the 298 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 1: conclusion that, you know, I've got to look out for 299 00:18:55,680 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: myself or I am you know, I have to be 300 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: number one. I mean kind of all I wouldn't say 301 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: a Trumpian kind of thing, but preoccupation with his own 302 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: self preservation and all that. You know. Well, I mean 303 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 1: you describe also, you know, and Rand as something of 304 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: you know, one of the influences on Terrence when he's 305 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: growing up. Yeah, and Rand was one of the one 306 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: of the books that he was reading as he was 307 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:35,120 Speaker 1: growing up. And and everybody, I mean at that age, 308 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 1: you know, eighteen sixteen, seventeen eighteen, in that era of 309 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 1: the late sixties, everybody was reading a Rand, you know, 310 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: and and getting the you know that that download that 311 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: that she that she transmitted. You know. The other popular 312 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: book was Catcher in the Rye, you know, and everybody. 313 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: I wasn't reading them because I was four years younger. 314 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: They were not really part of my universe. But I 315 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: think Anne Rand and and the or Iron Rand as 316 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: they call her, and and capt Her there influential books 317 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: for people of terence, this generation when they were teenagers 318 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 1: in the you know, in the late even mid sixties, 319 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: so he was about four years ahead, so all of 320 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: these things were coming down. I don't know how much 321 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: it influenced him. I mean, I Rand is identified with 322 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: the right now and and so on. I think, you know, 323 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: I think there's a wider perception that her philosophy is 324 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: you know, pretty distasteful in some ways, uh not not compassionate, 325 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: you know, sort of very typical of some of the 326 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: you know, right wing ideologies that people are. You know, 327 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 1: it's it's everyone for themselves, you know, there's a great 328 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: lack of compassion and empathy. And in this perspective, well, 329 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: I don't agree with that, you know, I think that 330 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: we have to I mean, I think if I if 331 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: psychedelics teach you anything, it is that we are all connected, 332 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,199 Speaker 1: we're all one, We're all in the same boat. And 333 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: I think, you know, they're useful for eliciting compassion and empathy. 334 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: And I think we need more of that, not less 335 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: of that. I mean, not only for each other, but 336 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 1: for nature itself. But as I get older, I get 337 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: more sort of maybe disillusioned, you could say a little 338 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: more cynical about it. Uh. I think they have great 339 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: potential for societal evolution and transformation. But the question is, 340 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: isn't happening fast enough? And you know, because we are 341 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: looking as as I say in the book and afterwards, 342 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 1: you know, we're looking at a closing window here where 343 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: we're having we have to make decisions, and our choices 344 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: are becoming more and more restricted. So can psychedelics turn 345 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 1: this around? I think they're part of the process. I 346 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: don't think psychedelics alone are are gonna do it. We'll 347 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: be talking more after we hear this ad, you know, Dennis. 348 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: I mean one of the things that when I when 349 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 1: I've seen you speak and really some of your writing, 350 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 1: I sometimes you know, on the one hand, you're very 351 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: much the scientist, and you very much fit within that, 352 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: you know, the all the other growing the scientists in 353 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: this in this world of the psychedelic renaissance. But you're 354 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: also this kind of bridge to the ways of thinking 355 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: that Terrence epitomized. And so in the book you talk 356 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,919 Speaker 1: about the influences on both of you growing up, and 357 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: some of them were common influences, like you talk, for example, 358 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: about your fascination with cosmology and astronomy, and then especially 359 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: you talk a lot about science fiction and how that 360 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 1: shaped um really you're thinking, and you can sort of 361 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: see that manifesting not just in you know, some of 362 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: the stuff, some of the terences recordings, but even in 363 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 1: your own speaking and and and obviously Stanley Kubrick two 364 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: thousand and one, you you come back to that movie frequently. 365 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: There's another movie called Charlie. You come back to UM. 366 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: So just talk more about, you know, the impact of 367 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: of science fiction and cosmology and those movies and the 368 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: in both you're thinking, and to the extent some extent 369 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: your brothers as well. Well. Science fiction was a huge 370 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: influence on this, you know, and I think we can 371 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: attribut you that to a certain extent. In fact, to 372 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: a large extent to our father who also read science fiction. 373 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: And he when he was a child, he had had 374 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: ramatic fever, so he'd spent quite a lot of time 375 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: in bed as a child. He couldn't go to school. 376 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 1: What did he do? He read? He read all kinds 377 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: of things. He read a lot of Westerns and things 378 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: like that, but he also read what science fiction there 379 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 1: was of those days, you know, and there wasn't I mean, 380 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: not like we think of it, but it was like fantasy, 381 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: Tom Swift's Adventures and this kind of thing. And so 382 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: when he had a family and all that, he spent 383 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: a lot of time. His job required him to be 384 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 1: on the road five days a week. He was a 385 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: traveling sales representative for a company in Denver, so he 386 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: would be gone from Monday through Friday. And he would 387 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: need things to read on on the road. So he 388 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: would buy these pulp science fiction magazines that you could 389 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: buy off the shelf. He would also buy fake magazine, 390 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: and he brings these things home and Fate Magazine is 391 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: very interesting magazine. It's it's still published, and it was 392 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: the sort of popular magazine about the esoteric and the strange, 393 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: you know, so all about aliens and and paranormal phenomena 394 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: and UFOs and occasionally drugs. You know, there were articles 395 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: about mescaline and ayahuaska and things like them. You're talking, 396 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: you know, the sixties, the fifties and sixties. But he 397 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: would bring Faate magazine and these science fiction uh you know, uh, 398 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: pulp magazines like as Abov science fiction or fantasy and 399 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: science extreudent, these different ones that you could buy, and 400 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 1: Terence and I were all over those, you know, and 401 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,919 Speaker 1: particularly Fate magazine. I mean, he would bring these faith 402 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: magazines home and we would be all over it. So 403 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: when so, I think in Terence and me, it cultivated 404 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: a fascination with the esoteric and the strange, you know, 405 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 1: I mean for from our perspective, you know, we were 406 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 1: weird and the weirder the better, you know. And so 407 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 1: when psychedelics came along, I think that we viewed it 408 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: not from a context of uh, spirituality or or indigenous 409 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: practices or anything like that. I mean we discovered that later, 410 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: but originally the idea was that, hey, we these are 411 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: other dimensions. Psychedelics can take you to other dimensions, and 412 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: we thought of that quite literally, you know, that these 413 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: were tools for actually visiting other realms, you know, hyper 414 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: spatial dimensions. That was the approach, and that perspective really 415 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: colored our whole experiment at Lachrera because I just say quickly, 416 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: you know, Lachrera Um is the place in the Colombian 417 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: Amazon where Dennis and Terrence in around nineteen seventy one 418 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: go for a number of weeks and have a really 419 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: formative experience. Um. They go there looking for a particular 420 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: you know, psychedelic and land up finding out that maybe 421 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: mushrooms is the one that they were really needing to 422 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 1: learn to know understand better. And where Dennis describes basically 423 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: having whether it was a psychotic break or a or 424 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: a spiritual breakthrough or a communication with Eli ends but 425 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: going what might be seen is largely crazy for a 426 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 1: while and a bit unhinged, and and his brother worrying 427 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: he might not even come back. Um. But it's then 428 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,959 Speaker 1: it describes almost the pinnacle of their relationship being though 429 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: is a very traumatic time. Did I did I sum 430 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: it up fairly? Yeah? I think so, without going into 431 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,719 Speaker 1: too much detail, I think that was exactly it. You know, 432 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: I've done various talks of the experiment at luch Are, 433 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 1: but at what at the Convention Breaking Convention Conference a 434 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 1: few years ago, I did a talk called the Experiment 435 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: at lucher Era colon psychotic break, shamanic initiation or alien 436 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: encounter question mark, and it looked at these different modalities 437 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: that might that could be applied to the experiment at 438 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: luchur Era, And I was kind of arguing for the 439 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: idea that yeah, there were elements of an alien encounter 440 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: in this, along with the shamanic elements and the psychotic 441 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: elements and so on. And uh, you know Eric Davis 442 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: who writes very eloquently about this. He in his book 443 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: High Weirdness. Uh, there's a whole chapter about Terrence and 444 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: Dennis and our adventures and lace Erera, and he makes the, 445 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: I think really insightful point in a way that we 446 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: went to Lacerera thinking that we were doing that we 447 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: were doing an act of science, you know, which we weren't. 448 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: What we were doing is we committed an act of 449 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: science fiction. And I think that's I think that's very apt. 450 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: I think that's exactly what we were doing because you know, 451 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 1: given our limited grasp of science, we were not scientists. 452 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: We thought we were, we fancied we were, but we weren't. 453 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: Given our limited grasp of scientific understandings and so on. 454 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: You know, we were trying to bring all these kind 455 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: of more or less you know, unrefined, unsophisticated scientific concepts 456 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: to what we were doing, to the idea that you know, 457 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: we could actually crack the space time continuum, you know, 458 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: and step through into this new a temporal rime. So 459 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: that that goes right back to the sixties, you know, 460 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: fascination with other dimensions and all that, and the idea 461 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: that that psychedelics could could be portals to this. We're 462 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: not alone now, lots of people are talking about this 463 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: very same thing, you know. I recently attended a private 464 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: conference in in the UK in October which the uh 465 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: you know, the theme of the conference was the Sentient Other, 466 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: and it was all about d MT entities and other 467 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: kinds of entities that you encounter in psychedelic experiences, you know. 468 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:15,239 Speaker 1: And the problem with d MT it's too short. You know, 469 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: by the time you get there to this place or 470 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: this dimension or the state, it's already fading away. It's 471 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: very hard to too spend enough time there to really 472 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: get a handle on what's going on. So you come 473 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: back with a sense of astonishment, but not much actual data. 474 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: It's such a short acting uh experience when you've smoke it. 475 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: Then it's just to clarify for our listeners. I mean, 476 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: D and T is one of the essential ingredients in ayahuasca, 477 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: but it's also something that can be smoked for a 478 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: shorter experience. Right. And then you have I guess one 479 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: of the early early books that kind of you go 480 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: back to the early origins, early twenty one century origins, 481 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: the cycle like Renaissance. Some of that goes back to 482 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: Rick Straussman and his research in books and the spirit 483 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: and molecule, and he were distinguishing that from five and 484 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: the O D M T, which also people smoke for 485 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: a short intense experience. These are the two. These are 486 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: the two two tryptamans that are short acting. Uh. They're 487 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: not orally active unless you potentiate them with a monoamine 488 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: oxidase inhibitor, right, And that's the basis of ayahwatska. The 489 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: two plants, one of them contains an M A O 490 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: inhibitor which inhibits the D m T from breakdown in 491 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: the gut, and then it's orally active. And instead of 492 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: fifteen twenty minutes you have six to seven hours, but 493 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: much less intense than the fifteen to twenty minutes. The 494 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: other way people take it is so the term is 495 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: parentally either injected or usually people smoke the free base 496 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: and then you get this very intense uh fifteen to 497 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: twenty minute I sometimes refer to it as like a 498 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: like a trip on a Neon roller coaster. I mean, 499 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: there is definitely a very visual space, you know, and 500 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: all sorts of things going on, really like being in 501 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: a different place. Five athoxy is actually not like that. 502 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: Fivethoxy is different in that it lacks the the visual 503 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: dimension for some reason. Fivethoxy is the same as is 504 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: the same thing as five m O d n T. Yes, 505 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: five m e O d m T fivethoxy people call 506 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: it it is you get effectively the the same feeling 507 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: of dissolution being in this space, and this feeling of acceleration, 508 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: but there's no visuals, you know, And the things that 509 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: set d MT apart is it's all about visuals, you know, 510 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: including the apparent encounter with other intelligences d m T. 511 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I have much more experience with d m 512 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: T than five thoxy d MT, but my experience with 513 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: five athoxy is that it is the total ego and 514 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: really self dissolution drug. I mean, what it does is 515 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: for me at least, it just dissolves the self. It 516 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: dissolves the ego. It's like, you know, the cliche with 517 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,439 Speaker 1: the psychedelics is we are all one, you know, and 518 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: we we merge with with everything. And five athoxy delivers 519 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: that experience when you really have very little or almost 520 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: no sense of the self as a discrete entity. You're 521 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: just part of the continuum, you know. D m T 522 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 1: is not that way. It's not the ego dissolving kind 523 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: of approach. It. I mean, you're still you, I mean 524 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: your ego. Maybe you know, the boundaries may be getting 525 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:16,720 Speaker 1: a little shaky, but you're still yourself and very often 526 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: in relationship in this uh you know, relationship with these 527 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: extra dimensional entities which are presenting as intelligences and you 528 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 1: know maybe so, I mean, I'm skeptical and you know 529 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 1: that the main question here if you have these encounters 530 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: with these apparent non human but obviously intelligent entities, the 531 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: first question is are they real? You know? And then 532 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: but then that's a loaded question because then you have 533 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: to say, well, what do you mean by real, you know, 534 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: and and this is where I get you know, I mean, 535 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: people look at me and say, well, you you just 536 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 1: you just can't accept it. I'm not saying it's not 537 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: that they don't accept it. I'm trying to figure out 538 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: is this coming from some part of the self, some 539 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: part of myself that is presented as something that is 540 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: not me, or is it really something from elsewhere that 541 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 1: is in communication you know, well, you know, I mean 542 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: ess interestingly, because you describe in the book, you know 543 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: that you and Terrence returning from La Gurea, you know, 544 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: fifty years ago, fifty two years ago or so, and 545 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: and you know, Terence comes back and says, basically, science 546 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: can't explain any of this stuff, essentially, let's skip it. 547 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: And you come back saying, well, we can't dismiss science 548 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 1: unless we understand science better. And it seems like that's 549 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 1: a key place where your trajectory is really golf in 550 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: different directs. That's where you decide to go and get 551 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: the degrees and become a scientist. And it seems I mean, 552 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 1: I'm more sympathetic to your point viewpoint, which is if 553 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: we want to try to figure out whether there is 554 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: something about aliens communicating with us through mushrooms, or these 555 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: things being exported to Earth from in that way, or 556 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: how we think about different manifestations of reality. We better 557 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: know the science a lot better, so we can critically 558 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,919 Speaker 1: evaluate both its you know, what it has to say, 559 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: as well as its limitations. Yeah, exactly. I mean you 560 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,400 Speaker 1: put your figure right on it that at that point, 561 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: you know, after our return from psychedelics represented a uh 562 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: you know, a point where our trajectories in some ways diverged, 563 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: you know, And and Terrence yes, said well, science is 564 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,839 Speaker 1: never going to explain this, we should just throw science out. 565 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: My response is, we can't say that because we're not 566 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 1: scientists and we don't really understand how to do science, 567 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,839 Speaker 1: you know, So for to reject science, let's learn how 568 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: to do it first. Then we can examine these phenomena 569 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: in the light of sort of the scientific perspective, scientific 570 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: framework and decide or help us decide what is going on, 571 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: or give it up and say yes, science can't explain this. 572 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: In trying to understand nature, I think science is a 573 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:30,320 Speaker 1: good place to start, you know, because science, unlike most 574 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 1: endeavors of human thought, Uh, it's a way to construct 575 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: models about the way things are, the way you think 576 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: things are, and then test the model, you know, tested 577 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: against what the evidence is, and either reject the model 578 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,799 Speaker 1: or modify it or whatever. In this way, scientific knowledge advances. 579 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: This is the scientific method, and it's not often, it's 580 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: not often practice the way should be. But in its 581 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,320 Speaker 1: pure form, this is what science is, and it's very powerful, 582 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 1: UH way of thinking. We describe in the book doing 583 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 1: a very powerful having a very powerful ayahuask experience. I 584 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,240 Speaker 1: think in the context of the of the UDV Church 585 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 1: in Brazil, and and and and and the single sentence 586 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: that you that you most come away with is this one. 587 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: You monkeys only think you're running things? Yes, how does 588 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,320 Speaker 1: that fit into what you were just talking about about science? 589 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: I think that psychedelics are great counterbalance to science. I 590 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 1: think one of the UH pitfalls of science and scientists 591 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: particularly is a tendency to think that, you know, we 592 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 1: have made such advances, we have such sophisticated understanding of 593 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,319 Speaker 1: the cosmos and the way things are, we pretty much 594 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 1: have this thing figured out, you know. And I think 595 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 1: psychedelics emphatically illustrate to us we only have a tiny 596 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: part of reality figured out, you know. There's no excuse 597 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 1: for arrogance here. What we should be humble because we 598 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: should always bear in mind how little we really know, 599 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: what a small part of the total picture. Science, science 600 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,760 Speaker 1: furnishes us. For us, it's science tend to be arrogant, 601 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: you know, there's no room for arrogance. They should be 602 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,359 Speaker 1: more humble. They should recognize no matter how much we 603 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 1: how much science advances, how much we expand our understanding, 604 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,919 Speaker 1: it's still only going to be a tiny slice of 605 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:50,400 Speaker 1: the total picture. And psychedelics are useful for for that 606 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 1: making that realization. And that's that's effectively what I meant 607 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 1: by you monkeys only think you're ready this show. We 608 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: are not in control. You know, I'm not sure anyone 609 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: is in control, but we're we're participating in this, uh, 610 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:11,800 Speaker 1: you know, this coevolutionary process with the plants, with everything 611 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 1: on the planet. And we're not reading the reading the 612 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:20,400 Speaker 1: show at all. Let's take a break here and go 613 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:35,759 Speaker 1: to an ad Well. You know, I said, I think 614 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: in the book, I think one of the indication of 615 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: the kind of not I shouldn't say two sides as 616 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 1: if they're oppositional, but the two aspects Dennis to your 617 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 1: way of thinking about this is you know, you talk 618 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 1: about you know, in the fifties, um, really Gordon Wasson 619 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 1: and his wife's writings in Life magazine and their encounter 620 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 1: with Maria Sabina and the book about Mushrooms and Russia 621 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 1: really kind of launches the first stage of of really 622 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 1: popular awareness about about about psychedelics. And then in the sixties, 623 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: I mean you're a bit dismissive of Timothy Leary. I mean, 624 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: I think you're more critical him than not, and in 625 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: some respects, you know, later on you worry, oh my god, 626 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 1: I don't want my brother, you know, Terrence, to become 627 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: like the new Timothy Leary and do the kind of 628 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: harms that oftentimes associated with Timothy Leary is kind of 629 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,719 Speaker 1: going over the top. But which you do credit are 630 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,600 Speaker 1: two books, which both of which come out I think 631 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,320 Speaker 1: in the late sixties or early seventies. One is Carlos 632 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 1: custand is The Teachings of Don Juan, which you know, 633 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,359 Speaker 1: I probably sold billions of copies. I remember I had 634 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 1: a copy when I was when I was younger as well, 635 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,239 Speaker 1: which is you know, probably largely fictional, but you say, 636 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: nonetheless very important. And the other book, though you're surprising 637 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: someone surprisingly. Quote is a volume that's published by the 638 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: National in student Meental Health, you know US, you know 639 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,960 Speaker 1: Health Agency, the proceedings of a conference health in San 640 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: Francisco seven. To explain why those two books actually play 641 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 1: an important role in your revolution. They were very influential 642 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 1: for me personally, those two books. The Castidated book, which 643 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,399 Speaker 1: Terence gave to me for my eighteenth birthday, and yes 644 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,759 Speaker 1: it probably is largely fictional, but I didn't know that 645 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,360 Speaker 1: at the time, and it doesn't really matter because what 646 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:21,880 Speaker 1: it presented was the ethnographic side, the indigenous origins of 647 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: these things, the idea that there were you know, uh, 648 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 1: indigenous world views and understandings about these substances and these 649 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: plants and fungi. So that was that was like the 650 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 1: Cosmo vision of you know, the indigenous world. And then 651 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:45,680 Speaker 1: on the other hand, the ethno pharmacologic search for psychoactive 652 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:51,400 Speaker 1: drugs the name of this conference in sixty seven, which 653 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: was a private conference. The only thing that the taxpayers 654 00:43:56,080 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 1: ever got was the publication that the book itself, which 655 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,319 Speaker 1: was published, and somehow or other it fell into my 656 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 1: hands again at the age of eighteen the year after 657 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:13,759 Speaker 1: the conference, and This actually happened some years before my 658 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:18,520 Speaker 1: my understandings about science and are the whole conversation about 659 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,920 Speaker 1: rejecting science and so on. That book really opened up 660 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:26,319 Speaker 1: for me that that ethel pharmacology was a real discipline. 661 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,360 Speaker 1: There was actual science here, There were people working in this, 662 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 1: people like you know, icons of still icons like Sualties 663 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,759 Speaker 1: and shul Gun and even Andy Wild wasn't that conference 664 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:44,040 Speaker 1: and and you know, so it was an eye oldener 665 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,319 Speaker 1: for me in the sense that there's a real discipline 666 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,760 Speaker 1: here and potentially a discipline that you know, I could 667 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 1: follow as a career path. And that was kind of 668 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: what led me to to that direction to start studying 669 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,400 Speaker 1: not only ethnography, which I was also interested in, but 670 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 1: but botany and chemistry and pharmacology and all that. It 671 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 1: was the inspiration. That book was the inspiration for that. 672 00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,600 Speaker 1: You know. You know, it's another thing that pops up 673 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 1: in your writing. You keep coming back to more than 674 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 1: most people I know, right about psychedelics, and it's the 675 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:23,680 Speaker 1: dark side. I mean, you write about the bluejas um, 676 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,880 Speaker 1: the witches both in Europe and Latin America, and the 677 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 1: uses of the toura, and you tell the story of 678 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,279 Speaker 1: a leading and quite powerful um Iowa Scarrow Pablo Amaringo, 679 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,680 Speaker 1: who basically you know, stops doing that, stops leading sessions 680 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,160 Speaker 1: because he's gotten involved in some sort of you know, 681 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,279 Speaker 1: uh conflict with what he sees a brujas which could 682 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,080 Speaker 1: use could potentially be a conflict to the death by 683 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,840 Speaker 1: where either kill or be killed. So say something about 684 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:57,239 Speaker 1: that dark side of this. Yeah, well there is a 685 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 1: dark side. I mean, I mean, psychedelic are a tool, 686 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,400 Speaker 1: you know, like any other technology, They're a tool, and 687 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 1: they can be used or misused, you know, and because 688 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:15,160 Speaker 1: they are, they can put people into very vulnerable states. 689 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:20,280 Speaker 1: That's kind of the point of these intense psychedelic therapy 690 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:25,120 Speaker 1: sessions is to provide circumstances where you can open up, 691 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:27,880 Speaker 1: you know, and but you have you can open up. 692 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,560 Speaker 1: You can look at your problems, whether they be addiction 693 00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:35,799 Speaker 1: or depression or you know, whatever your issues are from 694 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:40,280 Speaker 1: a different perspective. I think that's really the most important 695 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 1: therapeutic aspect of psychedelic therapy is they let you step 696 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:48,359 Speaker 1: away from your reference frame temporarily what we now call 697 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,920 Speaker 1: the default mode network, although there are other terms for 698 00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:59,160 Speaker 1: it as well, and in traditional cultures like in South America, 699 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:04,280 Speaker 1: for example. Uh, not all the Iowa Scarrows are good people, 700 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,399 Speaker 1: you know. I mean there is a power dynamic there, 701 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,080 Speaker 1: and if you have a drug or something that will 702 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:16,160 Speaker 1: let you get power over people. There are many cure 703 00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:20,120 Speaker 1: and arrows that are effectively sorcerers. They want power, they 704 00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:24,959 Speaker 1: want money, sex, they want all of these things that 705 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:29,080 Speaker 1: you know, people people year to have. And if they 706 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 1: can be used to you know, to effectively render you know, 707 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:41,000 Speaker 1: people compliant and willing to give up their their selfhood, 708 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,240 Speaker 1: then they will employ them that way. I think most 709 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:50,799 Speaker 1: of the people traditional practitioners using Ayahuascat really do it 710 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:55,520 Speaker 1: from the standpoint of being healers and helping people. Uh 711 00:47:55,719 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 1: Like Pablo ever Ringo, you know, was a good examp 712 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:04,880 Speaker 1: apple of that. Like many of the Iowa Scarrols that 713 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:09,080 Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to to work with, I had 714 00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,480 Speaker 1: no idea. I mean I learned this over time that 715 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 1: not all of these people can be trusted. And we 716 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,080 Speaker 1: see this now, you know, there's a great deal of 717 00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,759 Speaker 1: maybe overstated. On the other side, there's a great deal 718 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:27,319 Speaker 1: of paranoia for people that are doing, you know, want 719 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,279 Speaker 1: to go to South America and do Ayahwaska retreats, and 720 00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,279 Speaker 1: so I like, you know, people say, well, you must 721 00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,920 Speaker 1: be very careful, you know, uh not to get in 722 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,560 Speaker 1: with the wrong people because you know, damnaged you in 723 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:45,840 Speaker 1: many many ways. And that's true. I think it's a 724 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,800 Speaker 1: matter of proceeding thoughtfully and sort of not just don't 725 00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,560 Speaker 1: sign up for a retreat at the first website that 726 00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:57,239 Speaker 1: comes up. You know, do your research, ask around, talk 727 00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:01,400 Speaker 1: to people that know the ropes down there, and you know, 728 00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:05,480 Speaker 1: take care to get to the right places. Well, you've 729 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,600 Speaker 1: talked about sometimes the ayahuasca actually being mixed with a 730 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:12,360 Speaker 1: little bit of the tour or something or yes, that 731 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:17,239 Speaker 1: that does happen when the ayahuasca is mixed with the toura. Uh. 732 00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 1: You know, sometimes they put it in because they actually 733 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,680 Speaker 1: make bad ayahuaska and they if they add in the 734 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:30,480 Speaker 1: de toura, that ensures that something will happen, you know, 735 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,960 Speaker 1: not necessarily what you want to happen, but that pretty 736 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,719 Speaker 1: much will make it active. And other times they put 737 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:40,520 Speaker 1: into tour because they're you know, their motives are more sinister. 738 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:45,200 Speaker 1: I mean, detura is a Brent banzi is. It's called 739 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,400 Speaker 1: the Tree de tours in South America. But the de 740 00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:54,600 Speaker 1: tours in European uh, you know, European witchcraft and all that. 741 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:59,920 Speaker 1: These are deliriums and these are they're not psychedelics, they're 742 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:05,400 Speaker 1: deliriums there. They're drugs that create a great deal of confusion, 743 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:10,080 Speaker 1: and they also wipe your memory out and to a 744 00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:14,600 Speaker 1: certain degree, and they also make you very suggestible, you know, 745 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:20,600 Speaker 1: so classic example of like a date raped drug, that 746 00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,959 Speaker 1: kind of thing. And actually in in UH Colombia it's 747 00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,120 Speaker 1: used that way. You know, if you take ayahuasca and 748 00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:32,719 Speaker 1: there is there's the tour in it, there's bergmancy have 749 00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:37,279 Speaker 1: been added into it. The traditional term for it is 750 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:41,160 Speaker 1: to a they call it to a. You can tell 751 00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,520 Speaker 1: if your ayahuasca has been dosed with the tour because 752 00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:52,560 Speaker 1: you get this classical dry mouth reaction. Those trop pains 753 00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:56,440 Speaker 1: make you feel very thirsty, and they of course dilate 754 00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:00,040 Speaker 1: the eyes greatly and so they produce blurred vision and 755 00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,560 Speaker 1: all that. If you're getting those symptoms, that probably means 756 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:08,279 Speaker 1: there's a good slack of towai in the brew And 757 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,839 Speaker 1: for me, that's a red flag, you know, to get 758 00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,640 Speaker 1: the hell out of there, because this person does not 759 00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,520 Speaker 1: have your best interests at heart, you know, in a way. 760 00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,120 Speaker 1: I mean, you've been identified so much with ayahuasca, but 761 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,920 Speaker 1: also of course mushrooms and not just the growing guide. 762 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,080 Speaker 1: But and it's interesting the way you talk about them. 763 00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:28,960 Speaker 1: Right at one point you say, are they alien artifacts? 764 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,200 Speaker 1: And you've mentioned this already. Then another time you say, well, 765 00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:36,239 Speaker 1: mushrooms can be tricksters, and someplace else you say bullshitters 766 00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:39,440 Speaker 1: at times, and they have way of presenting delusions at 767 00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:43,000 Speaker 1: self evident truths, and in someplace else you go they 768 00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:48,799 Speaker 1: are mushrooms the perfect psychedelic exclamation point. Well, they are 769 00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,200 Speaker 1: the perfect psychedelic you know, I mean in the sense 770 00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:57,880 Speaker 1: that there you know, they're non toxic there generally non threatening. 771 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:02,920 Speaker 1: They're usually enjoyable, and then they do download information, you know, 772 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,520 Speaker 1: but like all psychedelics do. But I think it's up 773 00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:12,480 Speaker 1: to the individual too, you know, not necessarily, uh, lower 774 00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:19,040 Speaker 1: your your analytical antennas. You know, you get revelations, you 775 00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:23,400 Speaker 1: get insights from psychedelics, and they seem maybe at the 776 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:28,080 Speaker 1: time they seem like true revelations, but you know, you 777 00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,279 Speaker 1: need to look at it the next day in the 778 00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,480 Speaker 1: cold hard light of reality and see if that really 779 00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:37,000 Speaker 1: stands up, you know, And that's what I mean by 780 00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,800 Speaker 1: by they can be tri trickster to them. And whilst 781 00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,560 Speaker 1: it can be a trickster, although I think it's I 782 00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:48,480 Speaker 1: think it's less common. But you you know, you have 783 00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:52,960 Speaker 1: to you know, you have to keep your powder dry 784 00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:57,200 Speaker 1: in a certain sense, and and not necessarily just take in, 785 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:03,040 Speaker 1: uh everything that the mushrooms tell you, or the danger 786 00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:08,319 Speaker 1: is you're going to get into some delusionary state that's 787 00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:10,960 Speaker 1: very hard to get out of, you know, if you 788 00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:15,399 Speaker 1: just accept this. I mean I get emails kind of 789 00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:20,280 Speaker 1: dismayingly frequently from people, you know, that have had these 790 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:25,160 Speaker 1: really powerful experiences and they've come away and they say, oh, yes, 791 00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,080 Speaker 1: you know, I am the Messiah, I am the transcedentdal 792 00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,359 Speaker 1: object at the end of time. I figured all this out. 793 00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:37,239 Speaker 1: And you know, wait a minute, cowboy, calm down, think 794 00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:41,120 Speaker 1: about it, think about it, and get that, you know, 795 00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:44,080 Speaker 1: or hopefully don't get back to me because I don't 796 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:47,920 Speaker 1: have time for this ship anyway. Let me actually ask 797 00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:49,839 Speaker 1: you this, you know. I mean, I mean, obviously some 798 00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:52,440 Speaker 1: of this stuff that Terrence was coming up with, um, 799 00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:54,840 Speaker 1: you know, like like the world ending in twelve and 800 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:56,560 Speaker 1: a whole lot of stuff just seems off the wall 801 00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,799 Speaker 1: in retrospect. But there's there's at least one thing that 802 00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,520 Speaker 1: not just he but you also have talked about with 803 00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:06,880 Speaker 1: frequency that's maybe looking a little better over the years, 804 00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:12,480 Speaker 1: and that's the stoned ape theory. Yes, yeah, so just 805 00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:16,879 Speaker 1: explained your listeners what that is and why it's looking better. Well, 806 00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,799 Speaker 1: the stone ape theory, it's kind of a pejority of 807 00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,480 Speaker 1: way to describe it, but the idea of basically that 808 00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:27,799 Speaker 1: we co evolved with mushrooms that you know, the hominid 809 00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:32,320 Speaker 1: species evolved in Africa, you know, three to two to 810 00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:37,640 Speaker 1: three million years ago, and they evolved and leading eventually 811 00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:42,120 Speaker 1: to you know, they're different species, starting with Homo habilists 812 00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:47,160 Speaker 1: and then uh, you know, Homo erectus, Homo neunderthal, eventually 813 00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:52,960 Speaker 1: Homo sapiens, although it wasn't quite as linear as that implies. 814 00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:57,759 Speaker 1: But what we know is now it's it's a very 815 00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:01,040 Speaker 1: hard theory to prove, but what we do know is 816 00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:07,960 Speaker 1: that hominid lineages were evolving in northern and actually southern 817 00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:12,200 Speaker 1: africas well during this period. We know that the climate 818 00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:17,000 Speaker 1: about two million years ago was much wetter, there were 819 00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,200 Speaker 1: seasonal rainfalls, It was not a dry desert like it 820 00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:25,400 Speaker 1: is now, and you know, we've got the paleoclimate theological 821 00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,840 Speaker 1: data to support that. We know that there were cows 822 00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:34,960 Speaker 1: or the precursors of modern cows boasts, uh I forget 823 00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:39,319 Speaker 1: the species, but there were cow species. The fossils of 824 00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:43,399 Speaker 1: these cows have been found. They evolved in the same 825 00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:47,719 Speaker 1: environment that the hominids did. Undoubtedly the hominids hunted them 826 00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,200 Speaker 1: and ate them. Well, the mushrooms grow on the dung 827 00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:56,360 Speaker 1: of these cows. And if you look at any tropical ecosystem, 828 00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:01,480 Speaker 1: you know, where there's rainfall pastures and grazing cattle, you're 829 00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:05,360 Speaker 1: going to find these mushrooms. And you know, philosophy convinces 830 00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:09,399 Speaker 1: in in most places. The thing that makes it more 831 00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:16,000 Speaker 1: plausible now is so probably in that environment, obviously the 832 00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:18,719 Speaker 1: primates were there and they had to be eating the 833 00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:22,440 Speaker 1: mushrooms if the mushrooms were there, after all, they're hungry, 834 00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,160 Speaker 1: you know, the mushrooms are good to eat, and they're 835 00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:29,040 Speaker 1: not hard to spot. The two things that make it 836 00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:33,759 Speaker 1: more plausible now is what we've learned about the effects 837 00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:39,360 Speaker 1: that psilocybin have on neural connectivity and the you know, 838 00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:45,040 Speaker 1: neuro genesis and basically the complexification of the brain, you know, 839 00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:49,120 Speaker 1: could have been triggered by these mushrooms because this is 840 00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:52,640 Speaker 1: what they this is what they do, and you know, 841 00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:56,960 Speaker 1: we have the data to support that now. So potentially 842 00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:00,280 Speaker 1: it could have been a cognity boost for the populations 843 00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:05,640 Speaker 1: that were eating these mushrooms, leading to language formation and 844 00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:11,120 Speaker 1: the formation of the brain structures that support cognition, internalization 845 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:15,560 Speaker 1: of imagery, you know, synesthesia, all of these kinds of things. 846 00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:20,720 Speaker 1: And then the other side of this coin is, well, okay, maybe, 847 00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:25,320 Speaker 1: so what's the heritable mechanism. How is this transmitted from 848 00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:31,479 Speaker 1: generation to generation? Well, now we can invoke epigenetics, which 849 00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:34,800 Speaker 1: was not a concept that was talked about when Terrence 850 00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:41,720 Speaker 1: published this book. In neither that nor this neural plasticity element. 851 00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:47,480 Speaker 1: We now know that, you know, mushrooms foster neural plasticity, 852 00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:52,160 Speaker 1: which has to do with adaptation to external stimuli as 853 00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:57,560 Speaker 1: well as internal and then epigenetics provides a mechanism whereby 854 00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:02,560 Speaker 1: these traits can be transmitted across generations. So, I mean, 855 00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:06,280 Speaker 1: you can't ever prove this idea, but I think these 856 00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:12,680 Speaker 1: two uh notions move the needle from plausible to more 857 00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:15,560 Speaker 1: than likely, if you want to put it that way. 858 00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:21,120 Speaker 1: And I think I think it's more than likely that 859 00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,800 Speaker 1: mushrooms did play a role in this evolutionary period where 860 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:29,760 Speaker 1: we saw an expansion in the size and complexity of 861 00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:34,919 Speaker 1: the human brain over a mirror. Two million years well too, 862 00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:38,280 Speaker 1: million years sounds like a long time, but evolutionarily, it's 863 00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:41,360 Speaker 1: actually the blink of an eye. So how did this 864 00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:48,200 Speaker 1: exponential expansion in human neural complexity take place? I submit 865 00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:52,600 Speaker 1: that mushrooms were the catalyst for this. Well, Dennis, on 866 00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:57,680 Speaker 1: that fascinating note. I want to thank you for joining 867 00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:02,000 Speaker 1: me and my listeners on psycho Active for discussion about 868 00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:05,440 Speaker 1: your book and your brother and your work. Thank you 869 00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:08,880 Speaker 1: very very much, Thanks so much, it's been a pleasure. 870 00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:20,080 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it, 871 00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:22,560 Speaker 1: or you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts 872 00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,360 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear 873 00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:28,920 Speaker 1: from our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories, comments, 874 00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:32,040 Speaker 1: and ideas, then leave us a message at one eight 875 00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:37,760 Speaker 1: three three seven seven nine sixty that's eight three three 876 00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:42,160 Speaker 1: psycho zero, or you can email us at psychoactive at 877 00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:45,480 Speaker 1: protozoa dot com, or find me on Twitter at Ethan 878 00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:48,800 Speaker 1: natal Man. You can also find contact information in our 879 00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:52,560 Speaker 1: show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart Radio 880 00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:57,040 Speaker 1: and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman. It's 881 00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,360 Speaker 1: produced by no h'm osband and Josh Stain. The acutive 882 01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:04,560 Speaker 1: producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren 883 01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:08,320 Speaker 1: Aronofsky from Protozolla Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from 884 01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:12,200 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio and me Ethan Edelman. Our music is 885 01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,920 Speaker 1: by Ari Blucien and a special thanks to a Bio 886 01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:30,680 Speaker 1: s f Bianca Grimshaw and Robert BP. Next week we'll 887 01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:34,160 Speaker 1: be talking about the global history of drugs with Professor 888 01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:38,240 Speaker 1: Paul Gudenberg of sunny Stony Brook, perhaps the leading expert 889 01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:44,120 Speaker 1: in this area. Drugs we're actually quite important in the 890 01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:49,600 Speaker 1: constitution of modernity as we think of it today. Starting 891 01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:54,120 Speaker 1: in the sixteenth century, all types of stimulants began to 892 01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:59,520 Speaker 1: flow together and reach first Europeans and Middle Easterners and 893 01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:04,520 Speaker 1: Asians and North Americans, and they began to be part 894 01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:10,160 Speaker 1: of our kind of integral lifestyles, everything from coffee to 895 01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:14,440 Speaker 1: tobacco and then later things like you know, Coca cola, 896 01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:19,160 Speaker 1: or opiates. Subscribe to Cycoactive now see it, don't miss it.