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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at

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Speaker 1: noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, Cockley and Android

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Speaker 1: Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever

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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: Coming up as our conversation with Julia Asari. But we

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Speaker 2: do have a breaker here with what's going on in

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Speaker 2: the political world of Eric Adams. Just breaking on the

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Speaker 2: terminal a short time ago, as you might have heard,

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Speaker 2: permanently ending the judge permanently ending corruption case against the

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Speaker 2: mayor of New York. A federal judge dismissed the charges

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Speaker 2: against Eric Adams, bringing what is a permanent end to

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Speaker 2: the case. There was a bit of an argument about

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Speaker 2: whether charges should be refiled. And we have a chance

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Speaker 2: to catch up quickly on this breaker with June Grosso,

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Speaker 2: host of Bloomberg Law. She's with us from world headquarters

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Speaker 2: in New York. June. What's this all about? Is this

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Speaker 2: case over or not?

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Speaker 3: Cases over? The government got what it wants, what wanted

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Speaker 3: in one respect, but not in the other because the

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Speaker 3: judge slammed the government over and over and over again

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Speaker 3: in his decision. The government wanted to be able to

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Speaker 3: bring charges against Eric Adams in the future, and the

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Speaker 3: judge said, no, I'm going to dismiss this with prejudice,

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Speaker 3: meaning you can't bring that again. He said it wasn't

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Speaker 3: right to have leverage over the mayor of New York.

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Speaker 3: But the judge also characterized this agreement as everything here

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Speaker 3: smacks of a bargain dismissal of the indictment in exchange

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Speaker 3: for immigration policy concessions. And he just took down each

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Speaker 3: of the Justice Department's arguments for why they wanted to

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Speaker 3: dismiss the case. For example, it was brought for political reasons.

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Speaker 3: He said, no, zero evidence that it was brought for

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Speaker 3: political reasons. Another reason, the mayor, if he has to

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Speaker 3: litigate this case, won't be able to deal with the

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Speaker 3: immigration policy concerns. He said, no. Oh again, he said

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Speaker 3: the mayor dealt with immigration policy concerns right after this

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Speaker 3: by letting ice into Rikers, which the judge said may

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Speaker 3: not be in compliance with New York's law. So he

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Speaker 3: had a lot to say, though he had really no

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Speaker 3: choice but to dismiss the case with this.

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Speaker 2: Now less than three months before the primary election in

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Speaker 2: the New York City mayoral race. He can still run then, right,

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Speaker 2: He's a candidate.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and his lawyer had written yesterday asking the judge

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Speaker 3: to hand down a decision quickly because of the deadlines

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Speaker 3: coming up in that race. The judge also mentioned, however,

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Speaker 3: you know, whenever something is dismissed in this case, or

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Speaker 3: something happens Eric Adams or his lawyers come out and

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Speaker 3: say this shows that Mayor Adams is innocent of all charges.

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Speaker 3: The judge said, this is not an indication of guilt

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Speaker 3: or innocence. I'm not ruling based on that. And I

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Speaker 3: think he did that deliberately because he knew that we're

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Speaker 3: going to hear choruses from the Adams camp that this

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Speaker 3: means that he was innocent or not guilty of those charges.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, he's going to run, and we'll see how

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Speaker 3: much this plays in. As you know, he already has

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Speaker 3: horrible approval ratings in New York City, so we'll see

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Speaker 3: how much this plays in. And his tie to the

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Speaker 3: Trump administration.

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Speaker 2: Well, pretty neat boat to put on this one. Jude Grosso,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much, Bloomberg Law. With much more to

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Speaker 2: follow this evening. A federal judge dismissing corruption charges against

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Speaker 2: Eric Adams. There you go, nice and clean, June, Thank

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Speaker 2: you very much. There's nothing more dangerous than when a

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Speaker 2: journalist is looking for a trend story, and it is

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Speaker 2: exactly what I am going to do right now with

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Speaker 2: the analysis this morning coming out of Wisconsin and Florida. Hey,

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Speaker 2: first great day of the year for Democrats is the

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Speaker 2: headline and the tip sheets this morning. Add Corey Booker

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Speaker 2: at twenty five hours on the Senate floor, and it's

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Speaker 2: a brand new day. I may be going a little far,

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Speaker 2: but what happened last evening in Florida. Of course, by

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Speaker 2: the way, Republicans won, but not by nearly as much

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Speaker 2: as would have been expected. Certainly that sixth district of Florida,

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Speaker 2: the Mike Waltz seat talked about a Trump win of

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Speaker 2: thirty plus points. Didn't turn out quite like that for

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Speaker 2: the Republican candidate. But those seats are preserved. Democrats may

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Speaker 2: be claiming a moral victory. We're going to point more

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Speaker 2: to what happened last evening in Wisconsin, the Democratic win

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Speaker 2: the Wisconsin Supreme Court race, the one that Elon Musk

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Speaker 2: invested tens of millions of dollars in making it the

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Speaker 2: most expensive judicial battle in American history. Went to the

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Speaker 2: Democrat last evening a ten point spread. Judge Susan Crawford

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Speaker 2: handily beat Judge Brad Shimmel in her victory speech last night, listen.

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Speaker 4: Today, wisconsinight s spended off an unprecedented attack on our democracy,

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Speaker 4: and Wisconsin's stood up and said loudly that justice does

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Speaker 4: not have a price. Our courts are not for sale.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if Julia Azari will indulge me on

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Speaker 2: my trend story, but that's why we learn. To an

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Speaker 2: expert professor of political science Marquette University, Julie, it's great

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Speaker 2: to have you back on Bloomberg and good to see you.

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Speaker 2: Am I onto something here? Or are we making way

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Speaker 2: too much about a couple of state wide races less

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Speaker 2: than one hundred days you know the Trump administration.

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Speaker 5: Well, I have kind of complicated thoughts about that, and

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Speaker 5: I want to echo what you had said about the

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Speaker 5: you know, kind of the significance of this race in

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Speaker 5: Wisconsin as someone who lives in Wisconsin. This morning, I've

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Speaker 5: admit was a little lonely because by ten am I

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Speaker 5: didn't have fifteen text messages telling me to vote. It's

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Speaker 5: been very it's been a very intense period here in Wisconsin,

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Speaker 5: and it's also been, I can attest, very nationalized and

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Speaker 5: with a lot of emphasis on the race really being

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Speaker 5: about Elon Musk and Donald Trump, not so much about

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Speaker 5: state level judicial issues. As far as thinking about a trend,

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Speaker 5: here's here's how I would think about it. We often

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Speaker 5: see this happen in the special elections that unfold over

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Speaker 5: the course of an odd year after a presidential election.

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Speaker 5: We often see the president's party lose, and that or

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Speaker 5: whatever we want to call this. With the judicial election

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Speaker 5: technically nonpartisan, it's clear what the sides were. We often

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Speaker 5: see that we often see and that sort of foreshadows

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Speaker 5: the midterm losses that we often see for the president's party.

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Speaker 5: But what I want to emphasize from my perspective as

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Speaker 5: someone who studies this is that it's not as automatic

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Speaker 5: as I think the trend would have us believe, and

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Speaker 5: what it actually reflects is political mobilization and organization. And

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Speaker 5: what the way I would think about this and the

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Speaker 5: what I would look for is how much does some

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Speaker 5: of these results reflect that organization and mobilization on the

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Speaker 5: ground and certainly you would see that in Wisconsin, and

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Speaker 5: so that would be the lens. I would also turn

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Speaker 5: to some of these other races where Republicans underperformed their

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Speaker 5: usual electoral returns. Is was that the result of kind

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Speaker 5: of voters experiencing some kind of remorse or voters responding

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Speaker 5: to an administration? Wasn't also the result of real organization

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Speaker 5: on the ground, mobilizing some voters and not others, emphasizing

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Speaker 5: bringing national issues into that conversation.

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Speaker 2: What does this say about Elon Musk Because he not

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Speaker 2: only made this the most expensive judicial race in US history,

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Speaker 2: he said a lot. He was out there with the

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Speaker 2: cheese head. We all saw this, given out million dollar checks.

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Speaker 2: He said this race would decide the future of America

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Speaker 2: and Western civilization. Why was he so keyed into Wisconsin?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 5: I mean, I think who knows? But it's not wrong

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Speaker 5: that this is a this is a state where a

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Speaker 5: lot of things end up kind of being decided, where

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Speaker 5: this is a key swing state. We have a number

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Speaker 5: of judicial issues that could come before the court, including

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Speaker 5: the legislative maps and also a trigger abortion law from

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Speaker 5: eighteen forty nine. So you know, these are these are

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Speaker 5: really forefront issues. I think even before the twenty twenty

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Speaker 5: four election, even before this race and Elon Musk, certainly,

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Speaker 5: it was important to look at what was going on

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Speaker 5: in Wisconsin to understand national trends. As far as Musk.

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Speaker 5: One thing that that I like to say after these

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Speaker 5: off year elections is that they often kind of tell

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Speaker 5: us stories that we already know. And the story that

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Speaker 5: we already know is that Elon Musk isn't very popular,

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Speaker 5: that his sort and particularly like billionaires are not very popular.

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Speaker 5: I have all sorts of survey data that it attests

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Speaker 5: to this. People are not are not crazy about the

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Speaker 5: power of the wealthy. Sorry, this is the wrong venue

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Speaker 5: for that comment.

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Speaker 6: Musk.

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Speaker 5: You asked me to share my expert opinion, and that's

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Speaker 5: I mean. I'm looking at these open ended survey responses unbidden.

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Speaker 5: People often talk about wealth and billionaires and must didn't.

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Speaker 2: Julia, There's no billionaires around here you have to worry about.

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Speaker 2: It's just us.

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Speaker 5: Okay, good, I'm safe with my fellow media content creators.

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Speaker 3: But you are.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's that's that's that's my takeaway is this isn't

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Speaker 5: really popular. You know, Wisconsinin's are a little bit difficult

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Speaker 5: to read politically, it's very much a purple state. It

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Speaker 5: has potentially sort of shifted from being a state that's

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Speaker 5: purple because there are a lot of independent swing voters

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Speaker 5: to a state that's purple because there are a lot

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Speaker 5: of passionate partisans, and so every election is a question

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Speaker 5: of which ones will show up. But whatever it is,

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Speaker 5: you know, it is a state with a strong sort

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Speaker 5: of populist history and populist background, and so it's not

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Speaker 5: surprising to me that the idea that someone would come

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Speaker 5: in from out of the state and kind of flaunt

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Speaker 5: their wealth as a means of political power would not

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Speaker 5: go over that well.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm. You probably heard the story or read the

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Speaker 2: story of political magazine Donald Trump telling his inner circle

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Speaker 2: that Elon's going to be wrapping up soon, packing up

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Speaker 2: his toys and stepping back in the coming weeks from

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Speaker 2: his current role as a governing partner. Is Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: getting a sense of what you're feeling? Or will they

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Speaker 2: say his work is done? Or both?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, this, I mean good question will find out over

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Speaker 5: the over the next seple months. It's not terribly unusual

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Speaker 5: to have some staff turnover in response to these sorts

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Speaker 5: of you know, in response to a political development or

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Speaker 5: in response to a policy development. And Musk's role is

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Speaker 5: very strange. You know, he occupies a kind of mentally,

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Speaker 5: I think, the role that we often attribute to a

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Speaker 5: chief of staff, but he's not playing that role at all.

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Speaker 5: He is not managing the Trump White House. He's he's

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Speaker 5: you know, they won't be totally straightforward about what he's doing,

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Speaker 5: but clearly he's deeply involved in this sort of policy

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Speaker 5: impact of cutting government. And I think that if there's

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Speaker 5: a sense that that's unpopular, part of Musk's strange role

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Speaker 5: is that it makes him pretty easy to get rid of. He's,

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Speaker 5: you know, he's not senate confirmed, He's not even really

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Speaker 5: in a clear and official role. So I think there

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Speaker 5: was always maybe a sentence that he would be the

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Speaker 5: fall guy.

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Speaker 2: You should come buy more often, Julia Azari, I was

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Speaker 2: excited to hear you were coming on a great to

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Speaker 2: see you, Professor of Political Science, Marquette University. As part

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Speaker 2: of our conversation today on Bloomberg, I still wonder where

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Speaker 2: does Elon Musk live in town? Did he get a property,

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Speaker 2: does he have an apartment, is renting a house or

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Speaker 2: has he parked at a hotel. Maybe he really is

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Speaker 2: sleeping in the office every night. I guess he can

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Speaker 2: do that for one hundred and thirty days. Look, we've

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Speaker 2: got a lot more to talk about here. We'll assemble

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Speaker 2: our panel coming up next.

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Speaker 1: flagship New York station. Just say Alexa, play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

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Speaker 7: Just over three and a half hours to go and

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Speaker 7: no news two and a half hours. Yes, math can

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Speaker 7: be difficult sometimes two and a half hours to go.

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Speaker 7: We still have not heard from the White House any

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Speaker 7: kind of preview as to what exactly it is the

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Speaker 7: President will be announcing at four pm Eastern time. But

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Speaker 7: we have heard from the White House, at least via

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Speaker 7: the Press secretary. That's something that was reported in Politico

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Speaker 7: earlier is apparently, and this is quoting Caroline Levett here garbage,

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Speaker 7: It was a report that the President has told members

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Speaker 7: of his inner circle, including members of his cabinet, that

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Speaker 7: Elon Musk will be leaving his forward facing role as

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Speaker 7: a special government employee at the Department of Government Efficiency

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Speaker 7: or working with it fairly soon. Now whether or not

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Speaker 7: the accuracy of the story is in question here. This

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Speaker 7: is political reporting. We can't speak to that, Joe, but

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Speaker 7: it is interesting that the timing of it coincides with

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Speaker 7: what was a loss for Elon Musk yesterday after an

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Speaker 7: investment not just of his own financial capital to the

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Speaker 7: tune of twenty million dollars, but also a good amount

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Speaker 7: of his political capital went in to the Wisconsin State

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Speaker 7: Supreme Court race. He was backing the conservative candidate, who

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Speaker 7: ultimately lost by ten points to the liberal candidate, Susan Croft.

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Speaker 4: Today, Wisconsinites spended off an unprecedented attack on our democracy,

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Speaker 4: and Wisconsin's stood up and said loudly that justice does

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Speaker 4: not have a price. Our courts are not for sale.

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Speaker 2: That's where we start with our political panel today. Jeanie

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Speaker 2: Shanzino are Democratic analyst and senior Democracy Fellow with the

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Speaker 2: Center for the Study of the Presidency in Congress, joined

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Speaker 2: today by Republican strategist Mara Gillespie Bluestack Strategies. Great to

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Speaker 2: see you both and welcome Genie. What does this mean

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Speaker 2: for Democrats, are people going a little far here? We're

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Speaker 2: hearing this was the first good day for Democrats since

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Speaker 2: the election of Donald Trump. And that may not be

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Speaker 2: saying a lot to be perfectly honest, as we look

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Speaker 2: back over the past couple of months here, but these

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Speaker 2: couple of statewide races Wisconsin Supreme Court and the couple

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Speaker 2: of seats that we saw actually stay Republican in Florida,

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Speaker 2: mean what for Democrats?

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Speaker 8: Yeah, there is always a tendency to overread, but Joe,

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Speaker 8: we have to get Democrats something. They've had a crappy

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Speaker 8: few months, so they're out celebrating and of course Corey

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Speaker 8: Booker last night over twenty four hours helped buoy their spirits.

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Speaker 8: So yeah, this was a big win in Wisconsin. It

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Speaker 8: was also a necessary win. If Democrats had lost Wisconsin,

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Speaker 8: that would have been catastrophic for them. Likewise, and I

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Speaker 8: think Mora would agree. Had Republicans lost those Florida seats,

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Speaker 8: that would have been catastrophic for the GOP. So in

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Speaker 8: some ways this sort of reinforced the status quo. But

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Speaker 8: there was something about the Florida wins. They were able

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Speaker 8: to get those margins a little bit smaller than they

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Speaker 8: were in twenty four or a lot smaller. And they

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Speaker 8: also carried a Scambia county and that was a big

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Speaker 8: upset for the GOP. So there were some bright spots

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Speaker 8: there for Democrats, but of course they have to be

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Speaker 8: careful about overreading because we've been down this road before.

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Speaker 7: Well, and Maura to Genie's points on the margins in Florida,

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Speaker 7: I see there's kind of two ways looking at it,

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Speaker 7: one being that in both districts Republicans won by double digits.

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Speaker 7: The other being that those double digit margins were half

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Speaker 7: or less of what Republicans, including Donald Trump, were able

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Speaker 7: to secure in those very same districts in November. Which

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Speaker 7: side do you take on that?

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Speaker 6: Well, I think you could take the fact that people

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Speaker 6: just didn't go out for this vote. I mean, it's

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Speaker 6: three months after the Republican government took over, and we

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Speaker 6: don't always see a large turnout when it comes to

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Speaker 6: these off elections, and so I think with the economy

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Speaker 6: not being great, people just didn't feel compelled to show

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Speaker 6: It doesn't mean they went out and vote for the Democrat.

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Speaker 6: It just means they didn't show up as strongly as

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Speaker 6: they have in the past four elections like for Donald

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Speaker 6: Trump or for Mike Waltz or you know, it was

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Speaker 6: held by Cliff Stearns for years and he would have

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Speaker 6: somewhere up to seventy plus percent of the vote back

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Speaker 6: when he was the member. So this is a very

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Speaker 6: stronghold Republican district that that wasn't as a prize. I

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Speaker 6: agree with Genie's point about Democrats looking for victory somewhere,

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Speaker 6: you know, looking to take some bright spots here, because

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Speaker 6: they've had pretty bad days leading up to now, so

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Speaker 6: they're looking at this as Okay, we have something to

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Speaker 6: grasp onto and hopefully it can use this towards the

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Speaker 6: elections in November. With Virginia and New Jersey.

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Speaker 2: The money trail is pretty impressive though, when you look

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Speaker 2: at the way Democrats used money in all three races,

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Speaker 2: Genie out raising the Republican three to one in Florida's

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Speaker 2: first district, out raising the Republican ten to one in

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Speaker 2: Florida six in Wisconsin nearly two to one, making it

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Speaker 2: the most expensive judicial battle in US history. How much

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Speaker 2: of all of this was just about money?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 8: And what's insane about that is that you see there

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Speaker 8: the people who raised the most money also lost, and

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Speaker 8: so it says what we know about American politics. And

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Speaker 8: Donald Trump has said this over and over. Money is important,

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Speaker 8: but it doesn't guarantee you a victory. Is I'm sure

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Speaker 8: Elon Musk would attest to today and likewise the Democrats

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Speaker 8: who raised big money in Florida, and of course we

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Speaker 8: didn't expect them to win. But one thing I think

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Speaker 8: Democrats have to be very cautious about, and you just

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Speaker 8: mentioned before the set of the political piece, Democrats have

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Speaker 8: to be cautious about running against Elon Musk because, as

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Speaker 8: Politico notes, Donald Trump could exit him off stage, and

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Speaker 8: then what do Democrats run against in the midterm election.

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Speaker 8: They have to keep their eye on the person in charge.

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Speaker 8: This is Donald Trump's government, this is the GOP's government.

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Speaker 8: It is not Elon Musk's. He's working at the behest

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Speaker 8: of the president. And so Democrats have to focus leg

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Speaker 8: a laserbeam on Donald Trump. And this announcement today at

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Speaker 8: four o'clock is a big part of what they need

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Speaker 8: to focus on the economy.

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Speaker 7: Well, what about the way Republicans should be viewing Elon Musk, now, mora,

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Speaker 7: because we have seen evidenced in the last several months

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Speaker 7: of Republicans deciding to vote a different way potentially change

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Speaker 7: their behavior due to the threat of primary challenges being

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Speaker 7: funded by Elon Musk is Wisconsin yesterday a lesson that

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Speaker 7: even if Elon Musk throws his money something, it's not

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Speaker 7: necessarily something that you actually have to worry about. Or

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Speaker 7: does his massive financial war chest the largest of course

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Speaker 7: of anyone in terms of wealth in the world, still

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Speaker 7: mean you have to keep him on side.

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Speaker 6: I do you think you're seeing that? Especially in the Senate,

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Speaker 6: they have a little more wiggle room, right they have

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Speaker 6: six year terms, and we saw, you know, Rand Paul

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Speaker 6: is standing with Tim Kaine on this you know, bill

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Speaker 6: against tariffs for Canada. There's a couple others have joined them,

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Speaker 6: and they're not as threatened by Elon Musk's threat. You know,

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Speaker 6: I'm going to be involved in all the primaries, you know.

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Speaker 6: With the DOGE thing in him leaving the White House,

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Speaker 6: it was set when DOGE was established and when it

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Speaker 6: was announced that back when it was he and Vivig Gramaswami,

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Speaker 6: it was going to be dissolved. On July fourth, twenty

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Speaker 6: twenty sixth, America's two hundred and fiftieth birthday, so it

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Speaker 6: was already set, you know, kind of in stone that

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Speaker 6: this would be dissolved by then. And that's ahead of

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Speaker 6: the midterm elections. And so to Gini's point, the Democrats

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Speaker 6: do need a new strategy. It can't be just targeting

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Speaker 6: or just standing anti Trump or anti Elon. And I

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Speaker 6: think what Republicans will do is continue to focus on

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Speaker 6: the people, and those are who they're going to be

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Speaker 6: hearing from when these tariffs come into place, because they're

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Speaker 6: going to have to see whether their constituents are willing

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Speaker 6: to play the long game and trust in Donald Trump's

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Speaker 6: plan because the short term pains, especially on farmers and

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Speaker 6: especially on those who are already hurting to afford groceries.

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Speaker 6: How long can they hold on for and how long

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Speaker 6: can those members keep their seats is to be said.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of interesting, Genie and Mora. We really haven't

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Speaker 2: seen Elon Musk since Wisconsin, have we since he donned

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Speaker 2: the cheesehead and gave out the million dollar checks. Would

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Speaker 2: it be smart, Mora for Donald Trump to not have

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Speaker 2: Elon Musk standing next to him in the Rose Garden today?

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Speaker 6: It would be smart for him to for Elon tav

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Speaker 6: to take a step back and to focus on the

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Speaker 6: task at hand, which was supposed to be giving out

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Speaker 6: guidance and assessing where our fraud, waste and abuses. You know,

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Speaker 6: I think that the excessive role he has played thus

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Speaker 6: far as it necessarily a net benefit to Republicans, and

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Speaker 6: I'm sure the President and the White House have been

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Speaker 6: hearing as much. So again, you know, Donald Trump talks

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Speaker 6: about how Elon has this big job and he's doing

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Speaker 6: this out of his own goodwill. Well, then you know,

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Speaker 6: it does cause you to wonder should he go back

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Speaker 6: to that big job that he has and let those

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Speaker 6: who are elected do the job of the people who

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Speaker 6: elected them to do ask them to do. So that's

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Speaker 6: where I think his focus needs to be is on

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Speaker 6: what the people who voted for him asked him to

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Speaker 6: do in terms of the economy and safety and security.

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Speaker 7: Well, when we consider what they asked of the economy, obviously, Genie,

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Speaker 7: it was in part that they wanted to see prices

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Speaker 7: come down. Most economists would argue the tariffs he is

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Speaker 7: going to announce today at the very least threatened to

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Speaker 7: bring those prices up. Even if it's not Elon Musk

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Speaker 7: standing beside him. Does don't Trump need to kind of

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Speaker 7: allow the blame for tariffs should things not work out

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Speaker 7: in the opportune fashion. The administration is hoping it will

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Speaker 7: be pasted elsewhere, not just as him as president alone.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean absolutely, But you know who else is

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Speaker 8: there to blame. We are already hearing that Howard Lutnick

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Speaker 8: may take some blame if this doesn't all work out

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Speaker 8: the way Donald Trump intends. The reality is Donald Trump

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Speaker 8: owns this start to finish, and Democrats have to focus

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Speaker 8: on him. He is the one who put Elon Musk

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Speaker 8: in charge of DOGE, He is the one who put

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Speaker 8: Howard Lutnik in Commerce and all of these folks, and

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Speaker 8: he is the one who's deeply committed, apparently to tariffs.

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Speaker 8: And the reality is his eye is off the ball.

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Speaker 8: What people elected him to do was to bring prices

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Speaker 8: down and grow their incomes. All of this craziness about

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Speaker 8: taris on and off and on and off that have

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Speaker 8: undermined the market, reduced confidence of businesses and consumers isn't

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Speaker 8: helping him. And he is doing what presidential candidates and

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Speaker 8: then presidents often do overread their election victory. He's got

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Speaker 8: to focus on what people brought in there to do,

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Speaker 8: and we'll see today whether he does that or not.

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Speaker 8: By the way, Kaylee, I forgot to say happy Happy

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Speaker 8: Liberation Day.

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Speaker 2: Oh well, I appreciate that as well. Yeah, all the

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Speaker 2: way around. I feel thank you, Genie, that's.

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Speaker 7: Very kind, Jeanie Shanzana Marrick Gillespie our political panel on

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Speaker 7: this Liberation Day. At least that's what President Trump is

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Speaker 7: calling it.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump not only talking tariffs today though at the

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Speaker 2: White House, Kaylee, he's talking TikTok. Just put his finger

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Speaker 2: on it.

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Speaker 6: Ye.

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Speaker 2: By the way, this is before we got the breaker

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Speaker 2: the headline about Amazon, which Bloomberg is now reporting there

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Speaker 2: was a meeting to consider a proposal for taking over

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Speaker 2: at TikTok by Oracle Blackstone and a couple of other investors.

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Speaker 2: This just got more complicated because now Amazon apparently is

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Speaker 2: going to drop the bid.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: Although the President has been saying there were multiple bidders

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00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 7: interested in TikTok, But we have a lot of lingering questions,

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Speaker 7: one being which bid is seen as most attractive at

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Speaker 7: this point. The other being will that include the algorithm

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Speaker 7: or will that actually be left to Chinese control. Of course,

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Speaker 7: that was one of the main concerns of the bipartisan

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Speaker 7: legislation that passed that would see TikTok band or DIY invested.

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Speaker 2: To begin with, yes, if you're not buying the algorithm, though,

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Speaker 2: are you really buying TikTok?

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Speaker 7: Well, maybe we should ask this question to Mike Shepherd,

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Speaker 7: who of course leads our coverage of technology and strategic

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00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 7: industries here at Bloomberg. So obviously, Mike, there seem to

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00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 7: be a number of players in the game. Our reporting

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00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:54,440
Speaker 7: indicates that Amazon's bid is not being taken that seriously,

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Speaker 7: why would it be And if it's not Amazon's.

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Speaker 6: Who is.

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Speaker 9: Well it's a great question, and we're hoping to get

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00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 9: a little bit more clarity from this out of the

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00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 9: White House this afternoon. You know, it's a full court

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00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 9: press trying to figure out what is going on. But

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Speaker 9: Amazon has a reputation for kicking tires in different companies

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00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 9: and weighing a bid and then pulling away, and it

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00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 9: did come a little bit later in the game compared

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Speaker 9: to say some of the others that we've seen. Even

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Speaker 9: mister Beast has thrown his hat in the ring with

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Speaker 9: And then we also have Frank McCord, who's interviewed by

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00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 9: our colleague Caroline Hyde earlier today on Bloomberg Television talking

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Speaker 9: about his bid from Project Liberty, and they, interestingly don't

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00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,479
Speaker 9: intend to buy TikTok with the algorithm. They are content

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Speaker 9: to leave it in Chinese hands and then try to

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00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 9: construct it on their own. And he says they have

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00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 9: a way to do that. They have a price that

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Speaker 9: they're willing to pay for TikTok without the algorithm. But

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Speaker 9: I think you raised a good question, why would you

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Speaker 9: want this app without this influential recommendation feature that's powered

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Speaker 9: it so effectively.

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Speaker 2: Kind of like buying coke without the recipe.

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Speaker 9: Right, That's a great way to put it, Joe, because

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00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 9: it is sort of that secret sauce that makes it

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00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 9: work so effectively. And yet maybe in this era of AI,

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00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 9: there is a way to re engineer it and perhaps

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00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 9: do it a little bit more quickly and cost effectively.

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Speaker 7: Too, But would that be in keeping with the actual

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00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 7: law or does that matter if it's ultimately the Trump

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Speaker 7: administration that is the enforcement mechanism for that law.

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Speaker 9: Well, you know, this is one of the it's a conundrum.

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00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 9: There are so many layers to this story of TikTok,

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00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 9: and last year, a year ago, at this time, we

486
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 9: were talking about the push to see this divestor or

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00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 9: ban legislation get through Congress. Ultimately it did. It was

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00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 9: attached you'll both remember well to the Ukraine and Israel

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00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 9: aid package and that kind of sped it through and

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00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 9: people hailed its passage, and Joe Biden signed it. And

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Speaker 9: then as the time passed and they had to actually

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Speaker 9: find not only a buyer, but get byte Dance and

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00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 9: the Chinese government to go along, that's where it became

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00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 9: more difficult because byte Dance has no interest in selling

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00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 9: this valuable asset, and the Chinese government likewise doesn't either,

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00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 9: and they would need to sign off in any divestiture

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00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 9: involving the algorithm because it is such sensitive technology.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for popping in on this an important development here

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Speaker 2: on the way to the deadline, Mike Shepherd. Of course,

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Speaker 2: with us in Washington, I'm Joe Matthew alongside Kaylee Lines.

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Speaker 2: On this tariff day, I think we can call it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: they say liberation Day at the White House, but of

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Speaker 2: course that's up for interpretation. Thanks for listening to the

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Speaker 2: Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to subscribe if you

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00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 2: haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts,

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00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 2: and you can find us live every weekday from Washington,

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Speaker 2: DC at noontime Eastern at Bloomberg dot com.