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Speaker 1: Welcome to him Motherfucker's I'm Robert Evans. This is Behind

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Speaker 1: the Bastards, a podcast that has just encountered one of

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Speaker 1: the worst disasters of its career. So, uh, we'll get

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Speaker 1: into this more later. This is supposed to be and

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Speaker 1: it's going to be the first of several episodes about

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Speaker 1: Andrew Tate and the mythopoetic men's movement that led to

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Speaker 1: his rise to fame and influence among a generation of

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Speaker 1: young men. We started recording this episode just a few

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Speaker 1: hours ago with the wonderful April Clark and Grace Freud

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Speaker 1: of the Girl God podcast. Uh they have in anyway.

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Speaker 1: We recorded a little bit with them, and then I

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Speaker 1: had a minor emergency which has taken me out of

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Speaker 1: the house for a while. Things are okay, you don't

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Speaker 1: need to flip out on Reddit or whatever, but it

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Speaker 1: was it was a problem, um, and we were not

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Speaker 1: able to record with them. To finish recording with them,

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Speaker 1: and because of the holiday, we have no backlog. So

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Speaker 1: in order to get this episode done and ready for

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Speaker 1: our editor asap, Sophie is going to be my guest

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Speaker 1: today along with Ian our editor. UM and we will

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Speaker 1: get this out as soon as possible, because otherwise we

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Speaker 1: will not have a show and we are contractually obligated

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Speaker 1: to provide you with entertainment every single week until the

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Speaker 1: heat death of the universe. Um, but I do want

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Speaker 1: to shout out April and Grace, who are wonderful who

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Speaker 1: came on and booked time for us, and I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: that things got messed up. We will have them back

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Speaker 1: on the pod um at some point in the near future,

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to let people know that there is

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Speaker 1: They have an upcoming show at JFO Vancouver on February

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Speaker 1: and people can get tickets for that show at Girl

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Speaker 1: God Show dot com. You can also check out their

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Speaker 1: podcast just type girl God and any of the things

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Speaker 1: that have podcasts, and you can listen to their awesome show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much again, April and Grace. I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: that there was a minor calamity. UM. Now welcome to

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Speaker 1: the pod. Uh, Sophie and Ian, How are y'all doing

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Speaker 1: so well? So on I night. Ian is Ian Johnson,

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Speaker 1: by the way, he edits a lot of our shows,

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Speaker 1: and it's also uh one half of Gladiator with fellow

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Speaker 1: fellow editor DJ Daniel. All Right, and um, we do

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Speaker 1: have the full Gladiator on staff, which I like to

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Speaker 1: bring up as much as possible. M. I appreciate the love.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, you know it's Friday. Uh, ready for the weekend.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk some tape, you know, Let's let's do it Friday,

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Speaker 1: get into Friday, but also almost Saturday. Uh. And Ian

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Speaker 1: is currently in his closet. We may start drinking in

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Speaker 1: the in the near future. Might need to happen. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's do it, all right, Robert? Yeah, Ian, I actually

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Speaker 1: have you been on just as one of our podcasts

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Speaker 1: before you you have known this my first Well, you know, Ian,

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Speaker 1: people should know about you again. You're you're one half

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Speaker 1: of Gladiator. You're a longtime friend of our other editor

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Speaker 1: DJ Daniel. Um, you are a legendary podcast editor. And

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Speaker 1: you had absolutely no involvement in the July six plane

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Speaker 1: crash that cost John F. Kennedy Jr. His life off

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Speaker 1: the Massachusetts coast. No involvement at all. I don't know

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Speaker 1: why people, Yeah, don't bring it up. We had nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with it. Why are you talking about that?

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Speaker 1: I just to let people know Ian had nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with it. Ian Sophie, what do y'all know about

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Speaker 1: Andrew Tate. Um. So my limited knowledge of him is

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Speaker 1: he's I believe a former m M A fighter who

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Speaker 1: I don't know how he made a lot of money,

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Speaker 1: but it seems like he has a lot of money

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Speaker 1: from what he's seen on the internet. Will be talking

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Speaker 1: about how and he's into a lot of misogynistic men

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Speaker 1: rights kind of stuff. And uh, he got thoroughly destroyed

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Speaker 1: online by um Grenna, So I do remember that, um.

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Speaker 1: And I think he's in jail now. He is in

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Speaker 1: jail now, um. Unrelated to the Greta stuff. Um, there

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Speaker 1: was a little bit of a confusion about that, but yes,

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Speaker 1: he is in jail for sex trafficking in Romania. Um, Sophie,

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Speaker 1: is that more or less your understanding of the guy? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he fucking sucks, Yeah he does. Indeed he does, indeed

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Speaker 1: fucking suck. Um. Unfortunately, he's also kind of worth studying

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Speaker 1: in detail because he's managed to do something with social

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Speaker 1: media that I don't think anyone else has ever managed

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Speaker 1: to the same degree of success. Um. He's he's he's

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Speaker 1: smart in one very specific way, even though he also

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Speaker 1: did a bunch of dumb things and some really dumb

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Speaker 1: crimes that hopefully have ruined his life. Um, he was

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Speaker 1: he was smart in one in a way that has

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Speaker 1: allowed him to become dangerously influential to an entire generation

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Speaker 1: of teenage boys. UM, in a way that like no

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Speaker 1: one on earth has managed quite yet. Donald Trump is

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Speaker 1: really the only other guy that I might put next

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Speaker 1: to Tate in that kind, And I think Tate has

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Speaker 1: a wider appeal among jin z teens and tweens than

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Speaker 1: certainly Trump. It's interesting to see the spaces where Tate's content. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about all that. I am one

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Speaker 1: of the things when I started looking into this guy,

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Speaker 1: there's a ton of articles about because he blew up

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Speaker 1: kind of mid one up until you know the arrest

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Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago. There's not profile articles on

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Speaker 1: him that like go into detail about his background and

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Speaker 1: his past and his entire rise to power. You'll generally

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Speaker 1: the best articles you'll find in places like BuzzFeed or

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Speaker 1: or UM. I think we have a couple from like

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Speaker 1: The Guardian, but like summarize his backstory and two or

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Speaker 1: three paragraphs. I wanted to get into who this guy

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Speaker 1: is and where he came from because he kind of

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Speaker 1: pops out of nowhere if you if you don't follow that.

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Speaker 1: I think this is the first time anyone's really done that,

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Speaker 1: So I think this will be valuable for for that.

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Speaker 1: But I want to start by laying out why we

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Speaker 1: have to take Tate seriously and kind of explain the

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Speaker 1: scale of of sort of his influence. UM. I am

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Speaker 1: not exaggerating when I say that he is maybe the

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Speaker 1: most influential single person on teen and preteen males in

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Speaker 1: the US and the UK and some other parts of

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Speaker 1: the West than anyone else on planet Earth. UM. In

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Speaker 1: fall of two, financial services company Piper Sandler released a

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Speaker 1: survey of fourteen thousand, five hundred US teens taken between

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Speaker 1: August and September of that year. Tait was the number

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Speaker 1: one influencer on the list in terms of popularity. He

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Speaker 1: beat Kanye West, he beat Mr Beast, he beat Dwyane

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Speaker 1: the Rock Johnson, all of them. Mrs. I, Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't know who Mr Beast is, but he's somebotuber. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's a YouTuber. I know. Elon Musk joked about giving

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Speaker 1: him control of Twitter or he asked whatever, I don't

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Speaker 1: know anything about him. I'm sure you're fine, Mr Beast

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Speaker 1: or he's horrible. Anybody used that famous on YouTube? I'm

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Speaker 1: a little bit like, yeah, no, good people get famous

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Speaker 1: on YouTube, which is what I text our friend Cody

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Speaker 1: Johnston every single day when he releases a new YouTube video. Um. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: Andrew Tate hashtag on TikTok has received more than ten

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Speaker 1: billion views over the course of twenty two alone, which

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Speaker 1: is fucking nuts. That is that is insane. Um. That

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Speaker 1: is like incomprehensibly viral. Um. He was Also he will

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Speaker 1: always claim that he's like the most Googled person on Earth.

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Speaker 1: I looked into what he actually is. That's not quite it.

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Speaker 1: He is the He is the number one when you

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Speaker 1: type in who is into Google? Who is Andrew Tate

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Speaker 1: is the number one who is question asked to Google?

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Speaker 1: In two which is not the same as being the

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Speaker 1: most google person on Earth. Um, although he is one

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Speaker 1: of the most google people on Earth. I found a

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Speaker 1: couple of lists of that, and he's often at like

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Speaker 1: number eight, someplace closer to like ten. But like he's

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Speaker 1: incredibly famous. I just tested that, and um it is factor. Yes,

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Speaker 1: most Google person on the planet is that's your That's

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Speaker 1: that's a lot of people that that is a funload

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Speaker 1: of people and and in some counts he's like beating

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump WI again drump the literal president um. And

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Speaker 1: it's interesting because his career you can compare him to

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Speaker 1: a guy like Joe Rogan, right Joe his career, there's

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Speaker 1: nothing that people like. Wonder why he's popular, but there's

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Speaker 1: no mystery as to how he became popular. He's got

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Speaker 1: a very he's been consistently trajector is very very consistent guy,

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Speaker 1: constantly in in in the limelight, constantly doing stuff. Not

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Speaker 1: hard to see where he came from. Tate is a

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Speaker 1: kickboxer for a while and then kind of drops off.

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Speaker 1: Is just sort of a guy on Instagram, and then

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Speaker 1: it's suddenly the most famous influencer on the planet, seemingly overnight.

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Speaker 1: And this is not an accident. This isn't also something

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Speaker 1: he didn't just get surprised because something of has happened

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Speaker 1: to go viral. This was the result of a tactic

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen anyone else used, or certainly not to

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Speaker 1: the degree of success um that Tate used, and and

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Speaker 1: the tactic that he unleashed not only made him as popular,

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Speaker 1: but it made him popular enough that you can find

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Speaker 1: articles about schools in the U S and the UK

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Speaker 1: holding seminars for young male students and for teachers to

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Speaker 1: try to talk about de radicalizing kids who have got

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Speaker 1: who have fallen undertake spell. Um when I posted a

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Speaker 1: comment about him during his bat with Tunberg, just because

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Speaker 1: I was frustrated at the degree I had not with

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Speaker 1: Greta's response to him, which I thought was totally fair,

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Speaker 1: but with like people kind of cheering it on as

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Speaker 1: if he'd been beaten by it, where my concern was like, well,

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Speaker 1: the attention historically has just kind of made him more popular.

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Speaker 1: And there were a bunch of comments in that post

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Speaker 1: I made by teachers who were like, I don't think

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Speaker 1: people understand how popular he is with like thirteen, fourteen,

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Speaker 1: fifteen year old boys. Um, I talked to kids every

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Speaker 1: day who worshiped the guy, and I've never seen anything

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Speaker 1: like it. One of my really good friends Jack, this

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Speaker 1: is actually a few weeks ago. We were hanging out

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Speaker 1: and he was like, kind of joking but also serious.

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Speaker 1: He was like, Yo, I'm like, it would be scary

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Speaker 1: to be a thirteen year old boy right now because

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Speaker 1: of the inundation of this kind of stuff that you're

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Speaker 1: seeing all day, every day, and he was like, I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna lie. If I was thirteen or fourteen and

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Speaker 1: didn't know better, I could probably fall for a lot

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Speaker 1: of this stuff. It's like, I couldn't imagine being that

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Speaker 1: age right now and just being flooded with that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think about that sort of thing, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of I'll talk about kind of there's elements of Tate's

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Speaker 1: pitch that I think might have worked on me when

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Speaker 1: I was seventeen eighteen years old. Um. Particularly, A big

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Speaker 1: part of it is like working a ship job that

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Speaker 1: you hate for the entirety of your youth is bullshit,

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Speaker 1: which it is, like it's a terrible way to spend

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Speaker 1: a life doing the thing you hate forever. Um. And

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Speaker 1: if you kind of if that's the hook you're leading with,

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Speaker 1: rather than what a lot of male influencers lead in with,

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Speaker 1: which is like here's how to pick up chicks. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's an interesting spin that he's put up.

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Speaker 1: But well, we'll we'll get it. We'll get more into

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Speaker 1: his pitch and like, what about it is not new?

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Speaker 1: And what about it is new? But I wanted to

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Speaker 1: I want to start by kind of explaining who tilled

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Speaker 1: the soil that Tate grew up in. And to do

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Speaker 1: that we have to travel back and time to the

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Speaker 1: nineteen nineties and the work of the the first real

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Speaker 1: modern masculinity guru. And now we've talked about guys like

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Speaker 1: Bernard McFadden in the past who had elements of that

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Speaker 1: where he's big into physical culture and getting buff and

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Speaker 1: he talks about like, you know, how how modernity is

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Speaker 1: making men weak. But the Robert Bligh is the guy

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Speaker 1: who Jordan Peterson is cutting his image, and so do

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Speaker 1: degree is a guy like Andrew Tate. He is the

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Speaker 1: first guy to kind of bring both academic rigor and

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Speaker 1: also this kind of focus on the damage capitalism has

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Speaker 1: done to masculinity into this kind of it's become the

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Speaker 1: men's rights movements. It's become the pickup artist community. That's

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Speaker 1: not what it was called at the time. Um, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: Robert L. Wood Bli is the name of the guy

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Speaker 1: who kind of kicked all of this off. And he's

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Speaker 1: not the dude you'd think he was. He's an American poet.

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Speaker 1: By some accounts, he's one of the most influential poets

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Speaker 1: in American history. And he was born on December twenty

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Speaker 1: third nine in Minnesota. Um Initially Bligh seemed to be

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Speaker 1: on certainly not the path that he wound up on.

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Speaker 1: He goes to Harvard University, he studies at the Iowa

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Speaker 1: Writer's Workshop. He receives a full Fulbright scholarship to go

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Speaker 1: to Norway and translate Norwegian poetry into English. And during

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Speaker 1: this time he also gets connected to these great poets

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Speaker 1: who are not Westerners, like Pablo Neruda and Roumi, and

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Speaker 1: they influence his understanding of art and the myths that

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Speaker 1: underlie it. And it also leads him to feel that

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Speaker 1: like modern contemporary American poetry is kind of hollow and

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Speaker 1: lacks a connection to this kind of deeper mythology that

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Speaker 1: he sees in some of these Eastern poets and some

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Speaker 1: of these, you know, poets from other parts of the

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Speaker 1: world that aren't the United States that he feels are

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Speaker 1: making a deeper connection to things for just a personal preference.

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Speaker 1: But I find the Iowa's Writer's Workshop to be a

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Speaker 1: red flag. Oh yeah, wait, wait what I don't know

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Speaker 1: much about it? Tell me, tell me why is this? No,

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Speaker 1: it's just it's just one of those things that gets

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Speaker 1: uh were used in TV as like oh, I need

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Speaker 1: to go to this thing. It's like it has like

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Speaker 1: a a weird weird to leadism to it that Uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that. I feel that way about Harvard too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of weird to lead the elitism red

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Speaker 1: flags where I'm like, uh, but hearing hearing Harvard University

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Speaker 1: followed by Iowa Writer's Workshop is usually not the best.

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Speaker 1: Oh and then and and then there's the full yeah,

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Speaker 1: full bright grant. So it's you know, yeah, i Iowa

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Speaker 1: Writer's Workshop. Sophie says, go to hell. Apparently it's right, motherfucker's.

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Speaker 1: I don't know much about the Iowa Writer's Workshop. Um,

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Speaker 1: but that's his background. And again this is also he's coming.

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Speaker 1: He's doing this at an earlier time. I mean, Harvard

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Speaker 1: was very very much that kind of thing. But I

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Speaker 1: don't know, maybe the Iowa Writer's Workshop was was not.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Um. His first poem of collection of poems,

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Speaker 1: which was called Silence in the Snowy Fields, was published

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Speaker 1: in nineteens sixty two, and it focused on moments of

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Speaker 1: solitude and beauty. As we see in this piece driving

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Speaker 1: to town late to mail a letter. It is a

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Speaker 1: cold and snowy night. The main street is deserted. The

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Speaker 1: only things moving are swirls of snow. As I lift

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Speaker 1: the mailbox store, I feel it's cold iron. There is

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Speaker 1: a privacy I love in this snowy night. Driving around,

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Speaker 1: I will waste more time, which is just like this nice,

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Speaker 1: quiet little Certainly you don't see any red flags. There's

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Speaker 1: just kind of a poem about one of those quiet

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Speaker 1: moments that you have in your life. You know. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's I don't know, I don't find it deeply affecting,

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Speaker 1: but there's certainly like it's not like he's writing anything

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Speaker 1: you would see a problem with, Yeah, for sure. The

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Speaker 1: next year he published an influential essay and which he

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Speaker 1: attacked mainstream American poetry as impersonal, lacking in soul, and

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Speaker 1: a willingness to look inward. His criticism of American society

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Speaker 1: expanded after that. In the nineteen sixty six he co

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Speaker 1: founded the American Writers Against the Vietnam War. UM. He

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Speaker 1: is one of the very first prominent amer Rican artists

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Speaker 1: to like try and organize artists against the war. Which

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Speaker 1: is I mean good because it was a bad war. UM.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty eight, he made a public promise to

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Speaker 1: refuse to pay taxes until the end of the war,

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Speaker 1: and he also made he made some very trenchent critiques

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Speaker 1: of of US imperialism. In nineteen sixty seven, he wrote

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Speaker 1: an article for the New York Review of Books in

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Speaker 1: which he noted the fact that so few Americans have

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Speaker 1: resigned from the government or from responsible posts to protest

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Speaker 1: the Vietnam War is remarkable to me. And he's bringing

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Speaker 1: up also cases of like the Russian Revolution and stuff,

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Speaker 1: where you would have these horrible wars being prosecuted by

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Speaker 1: regimes that are on paper a lot less free than

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Speaker 1: the United States, but also would have a lot more

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Speaker 1: defections or people just like refusing to do their jobs

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Speaker 1: because they believed that of course that the sovereign had

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Speaker 1: set was unethical. And he's like, why isn't this happening

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Speaker 1: in American government? Why is no one refusing to be

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Speaker 1: a part of the Vietnam War? And he went on

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Speaker 1: to ask, can we imagine General Westmoreland resigning and refusing

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Speaker 1: to prosecute a brutal war? Never pilots drop anti personnel

302
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Speaker 1: bombs on small North Vietnamese villages and many of them

303
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,240
Speaker 1: hate it, but they don't resign with a public statement

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Speaker 1: of protest. They quietly retire when their tour is over.

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Speaker 1: Bligh wondered what this showed about Americans. Are we timid?

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Speaker 1: Are we greedy? He thought not, And this is what

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00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,680
Speaker 1: he wrote. What it shows is a disastrous split between

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Speaker 1: the Americans inner and outer worlds. He does not aim

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Speaker 1: to use his life to make himself whole, to join

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Speaker 1: the two worlds in himself. On the contrary, he is

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Speaker 1: prepared to give up one of the two worlds. The

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Speaker 1: businessman gives up the inner world and clings to the

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Speaker 1: outer as his way. A large body of literature denounces

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Speaker 1: the business man for taking the one world without the other.

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Speaker 1: But when a writer is opposed to the Vietnam War

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Speaker 1: and still accepts a grant from the government prosecuting of

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Speaker 1: the war, he is doing something similar. He is letting

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Speaker 1: the world split. He lets the outer world go by

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Speaker 1: him with just a wave of his hand, and then

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Speaker 1: he reaches out and pulls the inner world to him.

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Speaker 1: He accepts the money for the sake of my work.

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Speaker 1: It will enable him to live his inner live in

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Speaker 1: his inner world. But the disastrous split has already taken

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Speaker 1: place before he begins to use the money for his

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Speaker 1: work instead of trying to apply what he has learned

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Speaker 1: in the actions of his inner life to the actions

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Speaker 1: of the world. He pulls back inside the house, closes

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Speaker 1: the door, and declares he doesn't know what is going

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Speaker 1: on out there, or knows, but has rejected at all

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Speaker 1: as outside his sphere of influence or his interest. He

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Speaker 1: is not political, but what could be more within the

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Speaker 1: sphere of interest of a writer than the world. And

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Speaker 1: I actually find that a really affecting critique. Um, I

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Speaker 1: think about that a lot, just in terms of, like

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Speaker 1: number one, this desire, I have a lot where I'll

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Speaker 1: just be kind of like churning through the muck of

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00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,440
Speaker 1: a bunch of horrible stories about bullshit going on in Congress,

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Speaker 1: or like see some horrible Twitter thing culture warship roll

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00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,080
Speaker 1: up and one to um feel this urge to like, well,

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Speaker 1: fuck this. I don't want to pay attention to this anymore.

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Speaker 1: I just want to discard this from my life and

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Speaker 1: focus on this like piece of art or creativity that

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Speaker 1: I think most people feel that most reasonably will feel

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Speaker 1: that way a lot. And what he's saying is like,

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Speaker 1: how can you call yourself a writer? How can you

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Speaker 1: call yourself an artist an attempt to discard the outer

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Speaker 1: world in favor of the one that you focus on

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00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:18,359
Speaker 1: for your creativity, Like, how can you actually be connected

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Speaker 1: to your inner world in any way and and feel

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Speaker 1: as if you can pretend the outer world does not exist.

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Speaker 1: You're doing the same thing as a businessman who focuses

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Speaker 1: entirely on his his desire to make money and ignores

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Speaker 1: his spiritual development. Like there's not a fundamental moral difference

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Speaker 1: between what the two of you are doing, because you're both, Uh,

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Speaker 1: you're both rejecting half of of of you're being in

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Speaker 1: order to stick with the one that's more comfortable because

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Speaker 1: of whatever you've you've chosen as your profession. And in

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Speaker 1: the case of yeah, I don't know, I found an

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00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 1: Attrention critique that makes me think a lot about myself. Um,

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe check out what Bligh has to say about

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Speaker 1: the Vietnam War. And he put his money where his

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Speaker 1: mouth was. He used that article to republish a letter

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Speaker 1: he'd sent to the chairman of the National Foundation of

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00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,879
Speaker 1: the on the Arts and Humanities, UM, because they had

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Speaker 1: offered him a five thousand dollar grant. And he turns

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Speaker 1: it down because he's like, look, this is uh, this

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Speaker 1: is an instrument of the United States government, and I

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Speaker 1: am opposed to a war they are waging. And even

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Speaker 1: though I could argue that, like, well, if I take

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Speaker 1: this money and won't get spent on bombs, what I'm

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00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 1: really doing is providing legitimacy to the state that is

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Speaker 1: carrying out this terrible war. And I'm simply not going

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Speaker 1: to do that. I'm going to choose to refuse to

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Speaker 1: support it in any way, even by letting it support me. Um, which,

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Speaker 1: whether or not you agree with it, is a deeply

376
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Speaker 1: principled stance that requires sacrificing something. Yeah, so when when

377
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,920
Speaker 1: does he right he's not a bad guy so far? Yeah,

378
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,880
Speaker 1: I'm waiting. Yeah, this is not this is not cool

379
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,159
Speaker 1: people who did cool stuff. No, no, no, So spoiler alert,

380
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:01,920
Speaker 1: the Vietnam War ends. Um, we don't do great um

381
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,439
Speaker 1: goes goes okay for Vietnam though, well, I mean, millions

382
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,000
Speaker 1: of people die, but they do win. Um Bli remains

383
00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,119
Speaker 1: an influential poet and thinker. In the nineteen seventies, he

384
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,840
Speaker 1: organizes the first Great Mother Conference, which is still going

385
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,800
Speaker 1: on today. It's a nine day festival that explores human consciousness,

386
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Speaker 1: and it celebrates this kind of archetypal idea of the

387
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,560
Speaker 1: Great Mother as this kind of like feminine creative force

388
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:32,879
Speaker 1: that that you know, underlies everything in society. Um and

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Speaker 1: BLI the reason why he felt it was important to

390
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,840
Speaker 1: kind of bring consciousness and get people focused on this

391
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 1: idea and on this celebration of femininity is that he

392
00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:46,560
Speaker 1: saw the Vietnam War as kind of the expression of masculinity,

393
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,680
Speaker 1: like running wild and leading to terrible death. And he

394
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 1: believed that Americans needed to reconnect with femininity in the

395
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 1: wake of the Vietnam War, which is again not an

396
00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,480
Speaker 1: unreasonable stance. Um. You know, you can argue with it,

397
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,199
Speaker 1: but you and see where he's coming from. And they're

398
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 1: like both waiting for it. I'm just waiting for job

399
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 1: is coming. Motherfucker is coming. So as the aftershocks of

400
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,640
Speaker 1: Vietnam faded, America enters the swinging eighties, Blind becomes concerned

401
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,639
Speaker 1: with something else. Entirely. He sees in the Reagan years

402
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,440
Speaker 1: this vapid consumer culture, you know, malls and ship the

403
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 1: the increasing spread of popular music is like a concept

404
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,879
Speaker 1: in a way that it really happened. I mean again,

405
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 1: TV there's a lot of transgressive shit on TV today.

406
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:40,639
Speaker 1: TV in the nineteen eighties was not what it is now. Um.

407
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,640
Speaker 1: So he sees all this happening, and he he also

408
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 1: just sees, like, again, what kind of Reaganism and unrestrained

409
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 1: capitalism is doing to people? Um And he begins to

410
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 1: believe that the kind of soullessness and and uh brokenness

411
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 1: at the the core of the American experiment is the

412
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 1: result now of a crisis and masculinity. Right, So previously

413
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 1: he had Yeah, there's an extent to which he thinks, like,

414
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, we'll get into what he thinks.

415
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,440
Speaker 1: So in nineteen ninety he writes a book that is

416
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 1: kind of illustrating the things that he's he started to

417
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 1: feel here, and he calls it Iron John, a book

418
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 1: about men. Now, do you have you heard of the

419
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: fairy Tale of Iron John? Ian so familiar? No, No,

420
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 1: you're not Big Grimm's fairy Tales people. That's fine, neither

421
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 1: am I I had not heard about this either. I

422
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:44,120
Speaker 1: think maybe it's bigger in Germany. Umms. Fairy tales continue. Yeah, wow, wow,

423
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 1: that's a red flat one of the greatest works of

424
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 1: art and I'm gonna guess German history. Um, Sophie, I

425
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 1: feel like you just hate German history reflectively for reasons

426
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 1: that have nothing to do with anything that has ever

427
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 1: happened in history. Mm hmmm. I have no comment on that. Wow, Wow,

428
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 1: well Red Flag. I think Iron John again, it's a

429
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 1: fairy tale, and I think I'll give a brief summary

430
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,200
Speaker 1: of how that fairy tale goes. It's because it's again

431
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 1: none of us. I mean, he brought it up. You

432
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 1: should tell us what I'll tell you. I'm gonna do

433
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: it so God damn. I'm gonna quote from a rite

434
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: up in the New York magazine here. That story goes

435
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 1: like this. Something in the forest is killing a kingdom's hunters.

436
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: A stranger arrives, goes into the forest with his dog,

437
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: and returns with a large, hairy man he's extracted from

438
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 1: a pond. This is the wild man whom the king

439
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 1: locks in a cage. The king's son, playing with his ball,

440
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 1: lets it slip into the cage, and the wild man

441
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 1: tells him he'll give it back if the boy steals

442
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 1: the key to the cage from under his mother's pillow

443
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 1: and sets him free. The boy unlocks the cage, but

444
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: fearful that he'll be in trouble with his par flees

445
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 1: on the wild Man's back to the forest. After the

446
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 1: boy fails a series of trials and acquires a head

447
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: of golden hair, the wild Man kicks him out of

448
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: the forest, but after he sinks to the low status

449
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: of a kitchen worker in a foreign kingdom, the wild

450
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 1: Man helps him become a mighty warrior, and he wins

451
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 1: the hand of the Princess, is reunited with his parents,

452
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: and becomes the rich, heroic king in his own right. So,

453
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: you know, I think we're probably missing some context. They're

454
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: just from culture. But it's like, I get why that's

455
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 1: not in like the tight five of Grimm's fairy Tales,

456
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 1: Like that's that's maybe the one you leave on the

457
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 1: cutting room floor. That's like the B sides. Yeah, that's

458
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: like a B side. Yeah, that's like, um, that's like

459
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, the one of the one of the

460
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 1: Beatles songs that people don't talk about that much anymore. Um. Well,

461
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 1: to be to be fair, like it's up against like

462
00:24:52,880 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 1: Snow White Great fairy Tale. It would be funny to

463
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: see like modern Disney try to do this I mean,

464
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 1: the actual fairy tales are pretty horrific, to be honest. Yeah,

465
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: this one I also might be one of the tamer ones.

466
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not an expert on fairy tales.

467
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: That's why Disney was like to tame, not into it.

468
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: And again, I feel like I feel like this is

469
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: an example. I think sometimes we look at these stories

470
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,120
Speaker 1: that have been around a long time and are like, wow,

471
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: you know, there's some deep wisdom in there, which is

472
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: why we should keep telling them. But I'm looking at this,

473
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: which is it's it's a parable about manhood, right and

474
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 1: about becoming an adult. And I'm like, you know, it's

475
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: a better parable about manhood and becoming an adult. First

476
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 1: Star Wars movie. That's a good point. Much better one,

477
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 1: much better one. Look, George Lucas knocked it out of

478
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: the park. Fuck you Grim. You know who else is

479
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: George Lucas? No, Robert, who else is George Lucas? The

480
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 1: sponsor of this podcast? I mean would be actually George,

481
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,360
Speaker 1: you have the cash sponsor this podcast. Uh, and we'll

482
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: we'll we'll make it work, buddy, We we got you.

483
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: Um anyway, Uh we are back and no, but maybe

484
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 1: so here we are, Um, we're talking. We were having

485
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: a good time. Um So, Bligh's book looks at this

486
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: myth of iron John and he re examines the myth

487
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: using Young in psychology, which is again another red flag.

488
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: There's perfectly valid reasons to study young, but whenever you

489
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: have somebody who is reevaluating myths using Young in psychology,

490
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: they always turned into Jordan B. Peterson. I'm sorry, that's

491
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 1: just the way that it works. Um So, he's trying

492
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 1: to find lessons that are going to be meaningful for

493
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: men struggling with modernity, and his basic conclusion, as far

494
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: as I can tell, is that men need rewilding in

495
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: order to fix the things that are driving them crazy. Right,

496
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 1: they need to reconnect with the wild man inside them. Now,

497
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: this is going to be this is the root of

498
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: a million kinds of man influencer garbage, right, everything in

499
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: that funk. Like you guys know the liver King, that

500
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: guy who was telling people that he got super jacked

501
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: by eating nothing but raw animal livers that he hunted. Um,

502
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: he's spending twelve tho dollars a month on steroids, which

503
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: he lied about. Now he's getting sued for a hundred

504
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: billion dollars because he defrauded people by convincing them to

505
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: take his liver enzyme pills. So funny. But what the

506
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: livered King is doing is this is he's basically setting it,

507
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: pretending to be the wild man that Blag talks about

508
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: and being like, this is what you have to do

509
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 1: in order to, you know, be healthy and deal with

510
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 1: all of these toxic things about our modern lives is

511
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: go out and throw spears at bores and then eat

512
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 1: their raw, uncooked organs. Um, which I would actually say

513
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 1: is a lot less masculine than doing the thing that

514
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 1: our actual cave man ancestors did, which was learned how

515
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: to cook meat. Um. But you make a really good point. Um,

516
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: it's also the root of we had. We just started

517
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: this year with a couple of more episodes of Jordan B.

518
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: Peterson Show. He talks a lot about the need for

519
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: men to be controllable beasts and also references another Grimm's

520
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: fairy tale. The one that he chooses is, um, well,

521
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: I think it's a Grimm's fairy tale, fucking Beauty and

522
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: the Beast. I don't know, maybe not, maybe that started

523
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: as a Disney thing. I don't know where it started,

524
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: but he talks a lot about like this. Again, there

525
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: the all of these guys today who were talking about

526
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: you have to be primal, you have to reconnect with

527
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: your cave man roots. You have to like the thing

528
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: I saw. I think I saw Jordan B. Peterson like

529
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: video on Instagram the other day and I didn't know

530
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: it was him. I was just scrolling and he was.

531
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: But now that you say that, I'm pre sure it

532
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: was him, because he was talking about how men should

533
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: be dangerous, Like you should be dangerous when it's like

534
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: knowing when to use the threat of violence or not.

535
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: It's like, just because you're dangerous doesn't mean you're like

536
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: a violent person, but you should have that capacity or

537
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: some ship. That's what makes you a true man. It's like, what, yeah, crazy,

538
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: it's um that I mean. And that's you can see

539
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: like Peterson is not in and he never has been

540
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: an original thinker. He's cribbing from Bligh, right, they all are.

541
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: Bligh is the origin of this. And it's also worth

542
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: noting that while Bligh's book has been hit, the descendants

543
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: Suppli's book are pure reactionary gibberish. Bligh himself was not. Again,

544
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: we went through this guy's background. He's he's a deeper

545
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: thinker than that, And there's passages in his book that

546
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: are kind of worth connecting with. Um. So I'm going

547
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: to read a quote from that now to judge by

548
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: men's lives in New Guinea, Kenya, North Africa, Zulu Lands,

549
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: and in the Arab and Persian culture favored flavored by

550
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 1: Sufi communities, men have lived together in heart union and

551
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: soul connections for hundreds of thousands of years. Contemporary business

552
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: life allows competitive relationships only in which the major emotions

553
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: are anxiety, tension, loneliness, rivalry, and fear after work. What

554
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,239
Speaker 1: do men do collect in a bar to hold light

555
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: conversations over light beer? Unities that are broken off whenever

556
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: a young woman comes by or touches the brim of

557
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: someone's cowboy hat. Having no soul union with other men

558
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: can be the most damaged and wound of all. And

559
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: Cowboy had things kind of weird, But that's a totally

560
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: valid point. The lack of intimate male to male friendship

561
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: is a deep problem in our light beer I had,

562
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: I mean because I think he's just sort of I mean, okay,

563
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: whatever he's getting into a little bit of masculinely the

564
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: point making like, yeah, sorry, Sophie, famous lover of light beer. Um,

565
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: it's okay, I love I love my champagne beer too.

566
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: I just I had some lovely Actually, wish I had

567
00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: some Peroni right now. Peroni is a lovely ice, wonderful,

568
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: especially on a hot day. Yeah, I've I've done. I've

569
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: gone on long runs with nothing but a backpack full

570
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: of Pironi to keep me going. Um, that sounds very believable.

571
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: Lot Peroni. It is essentially water. I can smell the

572
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: ad dollars coming in. Yeah, p sponsor us, you coward.

573
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: But you see like what he's making there, And this

574
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: is not a point that like, this is not a

575
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: point Andrew Tate would make, right, because these guys are

576
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: all hyper competitive, and that's a huge part of like

577
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: what they're talking about. Whereas one of the like BLI

578
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: is at his core a large part of what he's

579
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: complaining about is totally rational, which is like, again, aren't

580
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: allowed to where is it? Where is this thing? Well,

581
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: that's not the only thing in the book. Um. He's

582
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: also talking a lot of yeah for it. Yeah, we're

583
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: we're getting to it. Ironed John spends sixty two weeks

584
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: on the New York seller list. Yeah. I don't think

585
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: anything gets spends that long in the best seller listing. Yes,

586
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: that is UM. Yeah, this is n UM because it's

587
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: on there for more than a year. UM. And it

588
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: turned Bly from a respected poet and activist into the

589
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: first masculinity guru in modern US history. Now again, we

590
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: had guys like Bernar McFadden before UM, who had talked

591
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: about aspects of this, but Bly is wrapping his arguments

592
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: in respected academia, and the way he's connecting with his

593
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: people is exactly the same as the kind of ship

594
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: that Jordan Peterson and and other folks do today, guys

595
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: like Ivan Throne and whatnot who were in the masculinity

596
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: influencer thing. He's doing conferences, he's having rooms full of people,

597
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: men gather and he's speaking to them and he's like

598
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: running them through. He's basically bringing them to these moments

599
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: of emotional height. And you can see some there's a

600
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: little bit of Werner Erhard in this. You know, there's

601
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: a reason this is all coming out at the same

602
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: time as we start to get the self help craze

603
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: hit UM. But he's basically holding these big pep rallies

604
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: for adult men. In nineteen nine one more than a

605
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: thousand men went to see him at the East Bold

606
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: Auditorium in Parkland, Washington, paying seventy five nineteen dollars for

607
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: the privilege. Yeah. A contemporary article in Entertainment Weekly describes

608
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: the scene thus, lee as the customers file in, a

609
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: dozen white guys flail away incompetently on African drums. When

610
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: the crowd has seated, the drummers quit the stage, and

611
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: Bly and Michael Mead, a storyteller who helps run the workshops,

612
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: begin to recite, rambling myths and bits of verse. Meat

613
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: occasionally bangs a bongo bli, plinks a bazooki, the Greek

614
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: version of the mandolin, seening, sending mournful notes wafting out

615
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: over the audience. So that that sounds good, right, It

616
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: sounds like a fun time. Yeah, it sounds like a

617
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 1: great way to spend seventy ft. Yeah. I always love

618
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: white guys playing African drums. Uh in in my in

619
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: my gigantic stadium uh speech series by a fucking poet anyway, Bly,

620
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: who in or had been called the most influential living

621
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: American poet by current biography, became a kind of celebrity

622
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: that hadn't previously existed. So he's filling stadiums with people

623
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: who want to hear him talk, But he's also he's

624
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: engaging them in a way that's going to spawn the

625
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 1: modern men's self help industry. Quote, Bly are just men

626
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 1: to rediscover their manhood by getting back to their wild nature.

627
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: Some feminists, he says, in a justified fear of brutality,

628
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: have labored to breed fierceness out of men, creating the

629
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: sort of soft male of whom Teddy Roosevelt might have said,

630
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 1: I could carve a better man out of a banana.

631
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: BLYI believes that inside of every such male, there's a

632
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 1: wild man yearning to get out, a radiant inner king,

633
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 1: just waiting to confirm masculine pride and shareness of purpose.

634
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: Bli insists he doesn't blame women for men's sorry state.

635
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: He blames older men who have failed to provide young

636
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: ones with the role models they crave. In traditional societies,

637
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: boys worked alongside men, plowing fields and fashioning arrowheads, but

638
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: the industrial Revolution severed that connection. The title character and

639
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 1: his bestseller is a wild hairy Fellow. Who in the

640
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: in a grim fairy tale is fished up from a

641
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 1: pond and becomes a boy's mentor. That image is also

642
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: the inspiration for his most extravagant exercise and manly self discovery,

643
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: five day wild Man Excursions, in which groups of a

644
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: hundred men take to the woods under the tutelage of

645
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: Bly and others to dance around fires, banging on drums.

646
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: I mean, honey, just say you have daddy issues and

647
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: move the funk on. Yeah, yeah, I mean again, this

648
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: is there's this there's this element where he's like, society

649
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 1: is fucked because feminists have tried to breed the violence

650
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: out of her. Yeah, okay, so you know you have

651
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: It's like like astonishing to me that people are picking

652
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: seventy five dollars and like selling out, because I mean

653
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: that's more like that's more than the people were paying

654
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: for for Coachella in the early early two thousand's. The

655
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 1: crazy thing is like at the core of what he's saying,

656
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 1: it's like most of that sounds that he's making some

657
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: good points points about, you know, how men have evolved

658
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,240
Speaker 1: in our So I'm just saying, where where's the twist,

659
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 1: because yeah, there's the there's you've seen it start to

660
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 1: happen here. So it's because like the valid thing in

661
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,280
Speaker 1: that past is just he's like, hey, look, young boys

662
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: used to grow up learning alongside both their father and

663
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 1: the other men, you know, in whatever community they were in,

664
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: and that taught them what it meant to be a man.

665
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: And now because capitalism has kind of taken the man

666
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: out of the house, you're supposed to be working forty

667
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: six eight hours a week, right, they're not there to right,

668
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: it's just the usually in like the way our our

669
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: society where it's just the woman who's raising the kid.

670
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: That's what he's saying then, that we've cut men off

671
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: from this process of learning how to be adult men

672
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 1: and and like that is actually a pretty valid critique.

673
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: And the problem is that not that he's saying. The

674
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 1: problem is that feminists have bred fierceness out of men

675
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: instead of being like, capitalism separates parents from children for

676
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 1: huge amounts of time, and that's bad for kids. And actually,

677
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: if you look at it, like you can see in

678
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: the in that very scenario of like men are out

679
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: of the house working, so they're kids are raised largely

680
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: by their mothers, well, that also means an unfair burdens

681
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: being placed on the mother. You could see this, there's

682
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: a way to have solidarity between the genders here and

683
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: be like, oh, yeah, this is all of a problem

684
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 1: of this system we've built that like separates families in

685
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 1: ways that are really fucked up. Like I identify with

686
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,479
Speaker 1: that when I was a kid um because we didn't

687
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: have much money at all. The only job my dad

688
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: could get was in New York City, and there was

689
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: a period of more than a year where he was gone.

690
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: He was living on a friend's couch working. They're sending

691
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: money back to us, and it was it was it's

692
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 1: not just him that made a sacrifice. I made a

693
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,399
Speaker 1: sacrifice as his son, and my mom made a sacrifice

694
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 1: dealing with the entire job of like raising me. Like,

695
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: there's a thing to identify with their But you can

696
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: see the start of the toxicity where he's like, well,

697
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 1: what's the problem is that feminists have tried to make

698
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: men less fierce? That's not really the problem. Robert Bligh Like, Um,

699
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 1: one interesting thing just before you keep going, is I

700
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: think in that quote, did he say that justifiably they

701
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,959
Speaker 1: tried to breathe Yeah, brutality out of men or whatever,

702
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: even they're like on some level, you know, you can

703
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 1: kind of like okay, like I kind of see what

704
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: the point he's making. You know, men do p pretruate

705
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,800
Speaker 1: a lot of the bullshit that happens to women in

706
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: our society. So like, he's nearly he's not anywhere. He's

707
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: not on the same planet of toxicity as a lot

708
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 1: of as as guys like you know, Andrew Tate who

709
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: are about to talk about, or even like Jan Peterson.

710
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: But you can see the root of it right where

711
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: he is. Yeah, yeah, he's he's still saying fundamentally, part

712
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: of the problem is famous want men to be less aggressive,

713
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 1: and like, no, that's not really part of the problem

714
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: that you have adequately identified. Um, yeah, he wants his listeners.

715
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: The young boys are drowning in female energy in the schools.

716
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: Every young man has a fantastic need for initiation. That's

717
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: why we all became so crazy about our football coach.

718
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: Such initiations, he says, channel wildness and the socially approved acts.

719
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: And again you see kind of this, like, well, why

720
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: is the problem? Isn't female energy? Like it's not that,

721
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: Like it's that young men it's that families are being

722
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: split up by this like need to compete and work

723
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: in ways that are really unhealthy for kids. But anyway,

724
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 1: you can look at the sea of other self help

725
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,439
Speaker 1: grifters at the time we're in her air hard around

726
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: Hubbard who would come around at this point, and you

727
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: could say that BLI is just kind of another dude,

728
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: and that he's doing a lot of the same things

729
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: a lot of these other self help grifters are doing.

730
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,399
Speaker 1: But one of the things that differs him is those

731
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,879
Speaker 1: guys are mostly pile like plying nonsense based on bad

732
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: interpretations of Eastern religion and psychological abuse, and BLI is

733
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: kind of he's not insulting or attacking people. He's not

734
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: calling them them weak. Um he's he's making some reasonable

735
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: points about stuff that's toxic about our society. And then

736
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: he's trying to create like mutual cathartic experiences with the

737
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: men in his audience who are being an vited to

738
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: kind of see the men around them as brothers in

739
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: a way that's more intimate than maybe they had been

740
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:10,760
Speaker 1: trained to do previously. Um. So again he's there's there's

741
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: something interesting going on here that isn't even holy toxic

742
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: that I think is kind of worth acknowledging as we

743
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: lead to the parts of it that are a lot

744
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: more toxic. Um. And it's one of those things where,

745
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 1: like I've spent a lot of time on in cell

746
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 1: message boards and they do talk a lot about this

747
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: feeling of disconnection with society. So when he says that,

748
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: like young men are not connected to their communities, he's

749
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,320
Speaker 1: he's making a decent point. Um. He Also one of

750
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 1: the points he makes that I thought was interesting is

751
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 1: he talks about the differences between female sex that and

752
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 1: male sex, and he points out that because of like

753
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 1: just basic biological realities of how periods happen, young girls

754
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: are instructed about their bodies in ways that young boys

755
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: are not, and it leads to lifelong discomfort talking about

756
00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: their bodies, talking about health problems. Um. And that's probably

757
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: be a valid thing to point out, um, but definitely

758
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 1: goes both ways. Sure, and again he's very he's completely

759
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: ignorant too. Well. I'm sure there's a lot of things actually,

760
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 1: especially today, that women are not taught about their bodies

761
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: because of anyway, Again, these are a lot of two

762
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: way problems, and he's focusing just on the male aspect

763
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: of them. But he's not inherently wrong about the male

764
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: aspect of them. He's just leaving a large part of

765
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: the equation out um, and that's where the toxicity comes

766
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,919
Speaker 1: in here. Yeah, I'm I'm I'm ready, I'm ready. BLI

767
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: has reached his fundamental message. Men and women are essentially alien,

768
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 1: and neither should apologize they're different tribes. He is saying,

769
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 1: my father was an alcoholic, and yet if you look

770
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: underneath his weakness, there was something there that my mother

771
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: didn't have. She was fine, but she didn't have it.

772
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 1: Three million sperms start out and they find themselves immediately

773
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: in a hostile environment facing an egg approximately forty times bigger,

774
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: where the product of the one survivor that didn't give up,

775
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: which is it's really weird to be like setting up

776
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: the gender struggle as like sperm versus egg, where it's like, well,

777
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 1: actually all of us are the product of sperm. That's

778
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: the only way people happen. That's what I emphasize on

779
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: the last part of that quote there, you said, we're

780
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,879
Speaker 1: in the product of the one survivor that didn't give up. Yeah,

781
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: what's the other half of that equation. Is it just

782
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: is it just one little bit of a bit of

783
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 1: cum that makes a baby? Why is there another part

784
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 1: to the baby equation? Yeah, I just want to be like, honey,

785
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: did you not show up for sex said class that day?

786
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 1: Did you miss that lesson? He's framing it like the

787
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: sperm have to murder the eggs so that one can survive.

788
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: That is not the way it works. Um. Bli actually

789
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 1: insists that he is not preaching old style machismo, and

790
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: he takes pains to tell his audience that, in fact,

791
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,800
Speaker 1: male rage is weakness. We're not talking about aggression. He

792
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: calls out a few of his listeners seemed confused. At

793
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: the height of an hour long discussion of the Gulf War,

794
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 1: one audience member announces that he's succeeded from society. I'm

795
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 1: not paying my taxes. I bought an a K forty seven,

796
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: and I'm farting around with ammunition just in case I

797
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 1: have to back up my decision, he says, softly but firmly.

798
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 1: Bli and many others have spoken out against the Gulf War,

799
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 1: yet nobody criticizes the a K forty seven fellow, and

800
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: when Bli asks the Vietnam bets to stand to be honored.

801
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 1: The room erupts with the applause for about three minutes,

802
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,320
Speaker 1: and you can see there too, the seeds of a

803
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: lot that's going on right now, right where Yeah, he's like,

804
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: we're not talking about many to more be more aggressive.

805
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: And then the guy's like, I have dropped out of

806
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: society and started buying guns. And everyone's like that's great. Um,

807
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 1: look we're not anyway whatever the BLI died last year.

808
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,839
Speaker 1: Um he lived a long time, yeah, I would say,

809
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: And you can find people, you know, reappraising his work

810
00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: and stuff. There's some folks who will say that, like,

811
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: his greater talent was for self promotion rather than poetry,

812
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,439
Speaker 1: and he wasn't as good a poet as people had said.

813
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not a not a poetry guy.

814
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna analyze his poetry in in that way.

815
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,760
Speaker 1: I do think sometimes because somebody turns out to age

816
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: into a problematic person, people are like, well, I guess

817
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: their work that everybody loved in the past sucked, And

818
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of cowardly. Like, no people liked

819
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:25,879
Speaker 1: his poems, they were influential, and then he turned into

820
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 1: a crank. That's fine, that happens, like yeah, um, anyway,

821
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: you know who isn't a crank and who will never

822
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: do anything problematic My favorite filmmaker Roman Oh. Oh you

823
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: know what. I googled his name as I was saying,

824
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 1: oh boy, oh dear, um, Well, I'm gonna go burn

825
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: all my DVDs of Rosemary's Baby, and y'all check out

826
00:44:52,280 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 1: these ads. Ah, we're bad, really glad if a little

827
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: while I thought it was good, with like the talk

828
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 1: about reabrasing artists works and the thank you, thank you,

829
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 1: I thrive on praisey. Yeah, that was something different, good

830
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: for you. So um Blin died, but his work launched

831
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: what scholars have called the mytho poetic men's movement, and

832
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 1: it's it's, oh my god, that's amazing. It is. It

833
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: is a somewhat uh fucking prickish name to call it,

834
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 1: I guess, but it's what they mean by mythopoetic. I

835
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:39,760
Speaker 1: should explain, Like, what they're saying is like the argument

836
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 1: Bli and the other because there's a bunch of other

837
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 1: authors in this. The argument they're making is that our

838
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: society has stripped mythology out and has become this like

839
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 1: kind of coldly competitive engine for creating cash value, and

840
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: that we need in order to make men healthier, we

841
00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: need to reintroduce like this kind of mythic under standing

842
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 1: of of masculinity and of the world that like, that's

843
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: kind and a lot of it is they're like looking

844
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: at like Native American cultures and some of the different

845
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 1: rituals around masculinity they had and being like, well, maybe well,

846
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:16,800
Speaker 1: and there's actually again, there's a scientific basis to a

847
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: lot of this is cultural appropriation. But like, one of

848
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 1: the things that's happening this period is you've got a

849
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: lot of Vietnam veterans dealing with PTSD in an era

850
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: before they understand it. And a thing that occurs during

851
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: this period is that some of them have buddies who

852
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 1: are also struggling with PTSD and our Indigenous Americans and

853
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: who invite their their white and black and Hispanic battle

854
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 1: buddies back to do stuff like sweat lodges um in

855
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,720
Speaker 1: order to like cope and other kind of different rituals

856
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: that have existed in some of these indigenous societies to

857
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 1: deal with what happens to men when they go to

858
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 1: war and they invite their friends back, and that stuff

859
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: works better than just getting a job working for an

860
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: accounting firm immediately after leaving Vietnam. Um. And so people

861
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: are starting to study this and write about it. And

862
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 1: one of the things that the mythopoetic guys take is

863
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: this belief that you should basically just kind of like

864
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: steel wholesale from these cultures and and dress white people

865
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: up in head dresses and give them drums and stuff,

866
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 1: as opposed to being like, oh, well, maybe you know,

867
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 1: there's a way that isn't that to look at the

868
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: value that some of these rituals have in healing people. Um.

869
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not the person to to analyze that completely,

870
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: but that's part of what what they're saying here is that,

871
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: like they're they're kind of recognizing there's something hollow at

872
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 1: the center of American culture that is not hollow in

873
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: some of these other cultures. And instead of being like,

874
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:48,280
Speaker 1: maybe there's things that we should fundamentally change about American culture,

875
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 1: they're they're saying, what if we dress up like these

876
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 1: other people? Right? That's essentially what's going on with a

877
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: lot of the mytho poetic movement. So a big chunk

878
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: of this and these are some of this is blig.

879
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,359
Speaker 1: Some of these guys outside of Bligh is there. They're

880
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 1: making their like putting a bunch of like white accountants

881
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 1: and sweat lodges that they make the wrong way and

882
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: lecturing them about you know, young and Joseph Campbell, or

883
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: they're like making them dress like Caveman while playing you know,

884
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 1: African drums. There's a lot of like weird and comfortable

885
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 1: racism in the mythopoetic men's movement. UM. That said, it

886
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 1: is less toxic than the men's rights movement that would

887
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: follow it. Um. Things kind of get increasingly aggressive and

888
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 1: toxic from this point out. UM. But Bly and the

889
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 1: initial mytho poetic influencers were not They saw themselves as therapists,

890
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: and again I don't think they were good at this.

891
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 1: But they were not political. So they were not This

892
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,280
Speaker 1: was not a conservative movement. They were not billing themselves

893
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: as right wing. They were not really like weighing in

894
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: on culture war issues, in part because the culture war

895
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: didn't exist in the same way then that it does now. UM.

896
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because Bli expressly says this is an

897
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: a political movement. You might criticize him because he had

898
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: just written a really kind of beautiful essay during the

899
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 1: Vietnam War about the cowardness of being a political but whatever, um.

900
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,359
Speaker 1: I found an article from the Washington Post in nine

901
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: that talked to a number of men who had been

902
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: most active in the movement, and there's some interesting pieces

903
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: in there. Quote an affirmation and strength comes from a

904
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 1: bonding between men that's impossible to put into words, says

905
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 1: ed Hanold, the mild mannered federal lawyer and founder of

906
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: the Men's Council of Creator Washington, one of six such

907
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: local groups salving men's deep inner pain through communal rituals

908
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: of dancing, roaring, hugging, and weeping. The experience was known

909
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 1: to men in the past, but has been forgotten. American

910
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: men face a desperate situation and don't even know it.

911
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: There are large numbers of men wandering lost and some

912
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,439
Speaker 1: personal waste, land of jobs with little meaning, personal lives

913
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: with little passion, and massive confusion about the reasons why.

914
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 1: He pauses thoughtfully and adds, there's a lot of hurting

915
00:49:55,040 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 1: cowboys out there. Now, these guys are not cowboys. These

916
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 1: guys were like middle managers at auto parts stores and

917
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 1: ship like, they're absolutely not hurting cowboys. Um, and also

918
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: actual cowboys aren't what this guy thought they were. But

919
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 1: he's not wrong again and saying that, Like, the situation

920
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: of American men was pretty unpleasant in the early nineteen nineties.

921
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 1: They were struggling against a capitalist culture that thrived on

922
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 1: the obliteration of meaning. However, men, of course they are

923
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 1: not the only ones suffering from this, nor are they

924
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 1: suffering worse than any other group of Americans. Right, this

925
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 1: is just alienation under capitalism. Part of what he's doing

926
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 1: here that is noteworthy and becomes a huge problem later on,

927
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 1: is he is identifying real problems with the society we

928
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: live in and then cutting men off from the rest

929
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: of that society and thus cutting off the pacity of

930
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 1: possibility of solidarity. So you can't look at this kind

931
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,359
Speaker 1: of alienation and loss of meaning and be like, wow,

932
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: men and women and everybody is being harmed by the

933
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 1: meaninglessness this whole, at this or of our culture. You

934
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: have to say men are being harmed, and then that

935
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: invites like, well, there must be women that are doing it,

936
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 1: and it must be we should be looking at how

937
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 1: feminine flow right in It's interesting to see like just

938
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 1: how far John Wayne's like reach impacts the way men think. Yeah,

939
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 1: there's a lot of hurting cowboys. Motherfucker, you are not

940
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 1: a cowboy. And by the way, cowboys were mostly like

941
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 1: poor black and Hispanic and Indigenous men who were being

942
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 1: exploited for their labor. Like, this is not none of

943
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: what you're saying means anything. You are entirely You're you're

944
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: talking about the emptiness of culture and your understanding of

945
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: history has been entirely formed by the movies you watched.

946
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:49,240
Speaker 1: Like anyway, do better, well, some of them will eventually

947
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 1: in the future. I think it would be interesting to

948
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,840
Speaker 1: try and find out look into all these men's groups

949
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,840
Speaker 1: in the Washington in the state of Washington in this

950
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:58,839
Speaker 1: period of time and see how many of those guys

951
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 1: wound up being elders and the proud boys thirty years later.

952
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 1: But that's that's that's a more in depth work for

953
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 1: for someone in the future if they want to do it.

954
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: Um So, one of the most dangerous aspects of the

955
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,879
Speaker 1: mytho poetic men's movement is that it was not as

956
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 1: toxic as its descendants. Again, it identifies real problems, but

957
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,240
Speaker 1: then it recasts them as things that just men, mostly

958
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 1: white men, are suffering from. And the answer is like,

959
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 1: KEECHI kind of racist LARPing as member like that. That's

960
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: basically what they're doing, right, and this, yeah, it's it's,

961
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 1: it's it causes problems. Later on, one of the most

962
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 1: ridiculous aspects of the mytho poetic men's movement was the

963
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 1: creation of wing Span, the Journal of the Male Spirit.

964
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 1: Uh don't you just want to sit down in with

965
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: a copy of Wingspan read out quotes to your buds.

966
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: I start every morning with it, with it. Yeah, just

967
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 1: spread spreading your wings. So in the in the pre

968
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: internet era, this acted as a clearing house for the

969
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 1: movement and a introl place where influencers could advertise their events.

970
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 1: Quote the last issue of Wingspan list dozens of publications

971
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:08,839
Speaker 1: and events for men around the country, including a New

972
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: Warrior Training Adventure weekend in Wisconsin, Drumming and Dancing for

973
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 1: men in Massachusetts, Brother to Brother in New York, Healing

974
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 1: the Father Wound in California, and Afro American Mails at

975
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 1: Risk in New Jersey. A recent grandfather ceremony at the

976
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 1: Fairfax Unitarian Men's Council featured drumming on a five and

977
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 1: a half foot thunder heart drum. In this area. There

978
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: are three large councils in Virginia, one in Gaithersburg and

979
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 1: another in Baltimore. The Men's Council of Greater Washington, which

980
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 1: Hanld started in June of nine with fifty men, is

981
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 1: the largest, with two thousand members and fifty newcomers arriving

982
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 1: for each monthly meeting. Late one night in January, at

983
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 1: the Council's meeting in the Washington Ethical Society Auditorium on

984
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 1: Upper sixteenth Street, Hanald shed his Clark Kent image as

985
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: he leads five hundred men who are pounding drums and chanting.

986
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: The sweating windows shape with rhythmic thunder that reverberates up

987
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: and down the street as they raise Honald, gyrating and

988
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: clapping high overhead and parade him about the room. Then

989
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,240
Speaker 1: group leaders circulate with large feathers and clay pots, wafting

990
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 1: the smoke of burning sage into the waiting faces. And

991
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 1: what is termed a Native American ritual designed to put

992
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 1: you in touch with generations of male ancestors. So that's

993
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 1: a little problematic, just to scoch um a number of

994
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: other masculinity grifters, followed by Robert Moore and Douglas Gillette

995
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 1: wrote the bestseller King, Warrior, Magician, Magician, Lover, which reported

996
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: to that's a that's a title right there. I want

997
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: to be a cane, warrior, magician, lover. And these are

998
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 1: these are like the archetypes of male masculinity. Um I

999
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 1: don't think they're in order, because you probably don't start

1000
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:44,439
Speaker 1: as a king and end up as a lover, although

1001
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:46,840
Speaker 1: maybe you do. That would be progressive actually saying that

1002
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:49,400
Speaker 1: you need to you need to shed your your mastery

1003
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 1: and your sense of ownership in order to become a lover.

1004
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: But I don't think that's the point they're making. Um

1005
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 1: More is a young an analyst and a professor of psychology. Jillette,

1006
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: like Dr Jordan balt Is Peterson, was a mythologist. I

1007
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 1: found a good write up that described the main arguments

1008
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 1: in their book by Aaron Innes. The book's second shared

1009
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 1: premise is that there are universal male archetypes inherent to

1010
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,400
Speaker 1: every male bodied person that are represented in myth and

1011
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: story around the world, but are suppressed in the dominant culture.

1012
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: The Developmental History of every Man says more, Gilette is

1013
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 1: in large part the story of his failure or success

1014
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: at discovering within himself the archetypes of mature masculinity. Following

1015
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 1: young and psychological theory. They claim that if men are

1016
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,800
Speaker 1: not given room to express these archetypes in a healthy manner,

1017
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 1: they will act them out unconsciously in ways that are

1018
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 1: damaging and violent, either directed outward at other people as

1019
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 1: overtly hostile male behavior, or directed inward which SAPs the

1020
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 1: fatality of the men involved. It's worth noting that the

1021
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 1: authors of both books, as well as their contemporary followers,

1022
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:45,720
Speaker 1: seem a hell of a lot more concerned about remedying

1023
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,880
Speaker 1: male acting out that's turned inward and creating male malaise

1024
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 1: than they are about male violence directed towards others. Take

1025
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 1: the essay why Men Find It So Hard to Feel

1026
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 1: by Mythopoetic Workshop leader Darren Austin Hall, who says that

1027
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,120
Speaker 1: women are at an advantage to men spiritually and at

1028
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: minstrel cycles made women are energetically connected to cycles of

1029
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: the moon, which in turn is energetically linked to our

1030
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,840
Speaker 1: unconscious This leads him to the conclusion that the solution

1031
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 1: to warmongering tyrants in the world is for women to

1032
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 1: use touch and the beautiful arts of seductive love to

1033
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:18,839
Speaker 1: disarm men, and that this will solve male violence. There

1034
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 1: is the girl's just gotta touch us, Ryan, We'll stop

1035
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 1: doing genocides. That's incredible. Hitler wouldn't have done all that

1036
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 1: bad stuff, if I get what I mean. He was

1037
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 1: dating his cousin, So I don't really want to continue

1038
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 1: this joke. But dating dating is the wrong word. Um.

1039
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 1: You know that story, Sophie. We've talked about Hitler and

1040
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 1: his cousin. Yeah, I killed herself. Yeah, it's bad. It's

1041
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 1: a really bad story. Again, bringing up Hitler and the

1042
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 1: cousin that he may be murdered, um, is definitely perhaps

1043
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 1: a good way of pointing out how fucked up it

1044
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 1: is to say the problem of men's violence is that

1045
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:07,359
Speaker 1: women don't touch them the right way. Um, it's pretty bad.

1046
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:09,760
Speaker 1: It also brings to mind I'm thinking about our Liberia

1047
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 1: episodes and the that sex strike that a bunch of

1048
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:15,400
Speaker 1: women went on to get the warlords to come to

1049
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: the table to negotiate, and how it's like literally the opposite.

1050
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 1: It's it's number one one of the most amazing stories

1051
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: of activism I've ever heard of, and it's literally the

1052
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 1: opposite of what these guys are saying. Um. But I

1053
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know. This is also gross. Um

1054
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 1: yeah ikey. So most regular listeners of the show are

1055
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 1: broadly familiar with the way men's empowerment gurus and men's

1056
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 1: rights influencers evolved over the last twenty years or so,

1057
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 1: a mix of right wing culture war politics intersecting with

1058
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,640
Speaker 1: very divorced men. And I think we haven't talked about

1059
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 1: this yet, but these guys are all extremely divorced, right,

1060
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 1: There's a there's a lot of weekend Dad energy in

1061
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 1: these sense. Yeah, okay, that's why they're also better Okay,

1062
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 1: yea that there's just no way anything else is going

1063
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 1: on here. Um. Elon Musk would have been really really

1064
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 1: would have fit in at these Maybe it would have

1065
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 1: kept him from buying Twitter. You know, I don't want

1066
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 1: to say it was all toxic. Um. So yeah, again,

1067
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 1: you have UM. Most people listening are kind of familiar

1068
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 1: with where things descend after the mytho poetic men's movement,

1069
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 1: which still kind of is around, but more or less

1070
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,280
Speaker 1: peters out over the course of the nineties, and after

1071
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: that point, you've got a mix of right wing culture

1072
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 1: war politics that intersects with these very divorce dudes angry

1073
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 1: over custody, you know, yelling about how men are discriminated against.

1074
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 1: And then we have pick of course, starting in the

1075
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 1: early two thousands, these pickup artists selling the secret to

1076
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 1: fucking chicks at bars, and this all gets brewed up

1077
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 1: into this slurry, and you know, you've got to pick

1078
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 1: up artists intersecting with the men's rights activists, intersecting with

1079
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 1: the right wing culture war politicians, intersecting with these literal Nazis.

1080
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:57,800
Speaker 1: And from that slurry we get gamer Gate and the

1081
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 1: alt right and at least a portion of Donald Trump's

1082
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 1: political success. Right, Um, so that is that is the story? Well,

1083
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 1: I mean this is I I we haven't gone into

1084
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 1: this on the show, and it was something I was

1085
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 1: broadly aware of it, didn't know much about. But I

1086
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 1: think this is especially leading into a story about a

1087
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 1: guy like Andrew Tate, who was the most toxic, arguably

1088
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,360
Speaker 1: calls himself the most like toxic man on the Internet,

1089
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 1: and is certainly an articon of of male toxicity. I

1090
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 1: think it kind of behooves us to talk about what

1091
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 1: led to him because it's interesting. Um. Anyway, this is

1092
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:37,800
Speaker 1: the end of episode one. Anybody anybody got some thoughts

1093
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 1: here at the end of things? Um, I mean, I

1094
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:43,160
Speaker 1: think that was a really great explainer on kind of

1095
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 1: laying the groundwork for where the ideas that eventually became

1096
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 1: Andrew Tap you know, started and took a foothold, and uh, yeah,

1097
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 1: after you broke it down, it makes sense and I

1098
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 1: can see how we got there, you know. But it

1099
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 1: is interesting that, you know, some of the initial original points,

1100
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 1: like you said, we're valid and do kind of highlight

1101
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 1: some issues in our society that maybe we should be

1102
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 1: focusing more on or addressing. But also, as you said,

1103
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 1: it's not just a men's problem. It's a problem for everyone,

1104
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 1: and everyone's being affected by it, and we should be

1105
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 1: finding solidarity in that, and how can we help everybody

1106
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 1: improve our lives, not just oh it's a problem that's

1107
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 1: only affecting men, so women problem. It's so interesting to

1108
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 1: me how many people see, oh, men are being made

1109
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:37,160
Speaker 1: to like spend their entire young and mature adult lives

1110
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 1: like laboring for somebody else's profit in a factory whatever,

1111
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 1: and as a result, their kids barely know them, which

1112
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:45,120
Speaker 1: is a real problem. A lot of kids raised and

1113
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 1: like the fifties, sixties, seventies have and translating that as

1114
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 1: and like seeing you know, their moms struggling to like

1115
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:55,440
Speaker 1: keep the house going and raise the kids through all

1116
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 1: that and and and the kids suffering, and be like, well,

1117
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 1: this is clearly a men's problem. No, this is this

1118
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 1: is a cultural problem. Everybody's problem is this. Um anyway, Sophie,

1119
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 1: I'm really not looking forward to what's coming next, Sophie.

1120
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:15,439
Speaker 1: It's gonna be terrible, and you're gonna have to play

1121
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 1: a lot of clips. So I'm so sorry listeners, but

1122
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but it is necessary. You know what. I'm

1123
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 1: not sorry. I'll never apologize. That's what I learned from

1124
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:29,919
Speaker 1: Andrew Tate. I think you wrote a really good script though.

1125
01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 1: Thank you, Sophie. Welcome Robert, I love me too. All right,

1126
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 1: everybody that's gonna do it with us for us today

1127
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:41,800
Speaker 1: at at Behind the Bastards the podcast that will be

1128
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 1: recorded again immediately after this, although I will probably start

1129
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 1: drinking because it is now quite late. Um So, Huzza Huzza.

1130
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:57,840
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1131
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone, Media This at our website,

1132
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on

1133
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:06,360
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1134
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.