WEBVTT - Michael Wolff, Chronicler of Chaos in Trumpland 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:06.480 I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:15.480 Thank you. As you can see, I'm moving very gingerly 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:21.160 because I I'm an orthopedic disaster here. Literally tomorrow morning, 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:23.000 I'm going to go to n y U and have 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:26.639 hip replacement surgery tomorrow morning. No, no, no, I'm not 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:29.600 saying that for sympathy, but I wanted to say that. 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:31.360 I wanted to say. It occurred to me that if 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:34.440 I don't for any reason, if I don't survive the surgery, 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:38.080 if I don't make it out of this surgery, then 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:42.920 this interview tonight will be my last interview for Here's 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:44.560 the Thing. And I kind of thought about the night, thought, 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:47.120 if this is gonna be my last interview, who do 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:49.560 I want it to be with? Who would be the last? 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:52.960 Is it Michelle Obama? Or is it to Taylor Swift? 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:57.480 Is it? Uh? You know? Who is it in the 0:00:57.480 --> 0:00:59.480 firmament there that I want to interview? And there was 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:01.360 only one name I could come up with. If I 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:04.319 had to do my last interview, it would be with 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:16.119 our guests, and I please welcome author Michael Wolfe. So um, 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:20.319 I want to begin by saying that those are some 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:24.520 very nice shoes you have on. They look like new 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:27.120 shoes to me. Have you been doing a lot of 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:32.959 shopping lately. I've always done a lot of shopping. So 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:37.560 before we get into the obvious subject, which you are 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:42.399 certainly have talked to death, I'm very grateful to you 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:46.600 being here. But I'm always interested in people's origins in 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:48.400 terms of their career, and I was wondering if you 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.280 could talk first about where you grew up. And you 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:54.520 grew up in Patterson. I was born in Patterson and 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:59.040 grew up on a on a somewhat whiter hill as 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:06.600 rising out of Patterson, um and um um, and then 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:10.720 came to New York. He was in the advertising business. 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:14.400 My mother was a newspaper reporter, so there was some 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:18.800 journalistic DNA in that household. Oh totally. Who did your 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:23.480 mother write for Paterson Evening News daily newspaper. The political 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:28.040 bent in the household was what, if anything, we were Democrats. 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:32.880 My father was sort of a back room New Jersey politico. 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:39.280 He was never indicted. Though. That's a short list. It's 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:44.639 uh and and uh. When you finished school, you went 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:49.280 to college at started at vaster Llege um and then 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:50.760 I came and then I got a job at the 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.000 New York Times and moved to New York and went 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:57.880 to Columbia to the journalism school. No, it's an unfinished 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:00.680 I get. I was a junior when I transferred to 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:05.560 Columbia History. And you were at the New York Times 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:08.240 for how long? And what was that experience like for you? 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.640 It was a horrible experience. Um, it was one of 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:13.120 those things. You know, this is the only thing I 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:15.640 ever wanted to do was was to go to the 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:18.119 New York Times. And um, so I got a job. 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:20.839 I was twenty. I think it was a copy boy 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:25.000 and I walked in and I think literally in ten minutes, 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:27.800 I knew that if this was life, I was not 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:33.160 going to make it. Why it just everyone seems so depressed, 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:35.880 seemed there and and and there was something about the 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:38.120 New York Times that it's on these copy desks was 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:40.920 very gray and in an era it was filled with smoke. 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:50.280 And also everybody had a tick a literally yea. Um, 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:54.520 so it explains a lot. Actually I've been so that 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:58.760 was so I was there for about about a year. Um. 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:02.200 And then basically when there had a job since well, 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:04.200 did you did you sense early on you were what 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:06.160 age when you were at the Times? How long we 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:08.160 got the Times? Twenty? About a year? She were just 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:10.480 there for a year. And did you sense early on 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:12.560 that the a that you wanted to be a writer? 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:15.120 Did you know you wanted to be a writer. Yes, 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:18.320 I mean there was no sort of no question of, 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:20.640 no questions, and you knew what you wanted to write 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.680 or you weren't sure fiction nonfiction? You wanted to write 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:25.760 non fiction. I know I wanted to write fiction, but 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:29.160 you wanted to write fiction. Yes, some people would say 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:33.440 that you have written fiction. The truth is I can't 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.320 write fiction, so it must not be. But but but 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:39.760 you wanted to write fiction. What happened? No one was 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:43.520 buying your no no stories. No worse than that they 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:47.560 bought So I wrote it. I wrote a first book. Um. Um, 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:49.560 when I was twenty five, I wrote I wrote a 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:52.200 book and it was non fiction, but it felt like fiction. 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:56.120 I mean I sort of come out of what used 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:58.839 to be called the new journalism and um, and it 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:03.560 was really right in writing using fictional techniques to write 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:06.560 about real things. Um. But that was a moment and 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:08.760 say in the in the in which they sort of said, okay, 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:10.800 you did that. That's good. But now you can do 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:14.320 what real writers do. You'll write a novel. They gave 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:17.320 me a big advance to do this, and and I 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:19.920 moved for your first book. This was my second book. 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:24.200 So my first book was this was a new journalism 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:29.159 book called White Kids, um um, which I I think 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:32.120 it was years. Why were they giving out big advances 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:35.400 then for you if you weren't you weren't an established writer, 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:38.520 Hall I did. I mean, I wrote this book and 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:40.200 it was quite success. I mean I got a little 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:43.560 little notoriety in anyway. Um. And then so they gave 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:45.960 me an advance to write this novel. I thought, great, 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:48.640 I'm going to be a novelist. I moved to Europe. 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.359 I moved to Rome. Um. I thought, I saw the 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:55.240 whole thing, um, the whole life in front of me. 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:58.120 Um and and I sat down at a at a 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:02.599 typewriter then and um um and I began to write 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:06.000 the first page of this book over and over and 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:10.040 over and over again. I mean, this was bad. This 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:15.279 went on for six years of um. It's like the 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:21.279 shining But in Rome, my very promising career just seeped 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:25.160 away every day until there was no career left. At 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:27.800 some point, I would I would mention, I guess you 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:30.680 realized you didn't want to work for somebody else when 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:32.840 you decided to write books. By this point, no one, 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:35.240 no one would hire me, so I was it was 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:38.640 not really a question yes on your own. I had 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:42.720 a friend from college. This was the eighties so, and 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:44.520 he had made a lot of money on Wall Street 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:47.320 and started his own firm. And as I'm still trying 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:49.560 to write this book, he said to me, listen, you've 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:52.000 become an embarrassment to everyone who has ever known you. 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:56.560 Come downtown. I'll give you an office and we'll do deals. 0:06:57.760 --> 0:06:59.800 I had never even heard. I didn't even know there 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:03.479 was such a thing. Um, but I was so grateful. 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:06.080 I just immediately put it down and bought a suit, 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:10.200 went downtown, and suddenly we were sort of doing deals. 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:12.840 This was give us an example of one deal you did. 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:19.440 I'm intrigued. What was the deal that was done? Well, 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:23.160 we started to invest in He said, you know about media, 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:27.480 and well, let's we'll we'll put money into media companies. UM. Now, 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.119 I had no idea anything about media, and never even 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:31.840 you know, other than the fact that I had written 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:34.800 a book. UM worked at a newspaper. That's what I 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:37.239 knew about the media. But it was like, whatever interests 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.080 you will do it. I looked around and I said 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:45.000 the National Lampoon magazine. Um, it had peaked and then 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:46.800 it had gone down. And I thought, but it was 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:50.600 a public company. We could potentially take over this thing, 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.880 and UM, you know, I could buy myself a job. 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:58.920 Did he listen to you, Yes, yes, we brought the magazine. Yeah, 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:02.760 we we UM invested in this, made you know, and 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.080 then somebody else came along. This was the eighties, So 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.559 you invest in this, and somebody else came along, UM 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:11.600 and invested more, bought it, UM, and we made a 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:15.280 ton of money. He said, to see, it's easy. We're 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:22.200 doing deals and and then so you're a novelist and 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:23.760 you're in Rome, and then you come back and you're 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.560 doing deals with this gentleman. And after that is that 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:28.720 when you get into the magazine business. And when I 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:33.080 got into the internet business. So that it was UM 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:36.920 there was a series of steps here and and UM, 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:42.599 so I I found myself running this UM this a 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:48.400 small publishing company which started to publish books about the Internet. 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:51.360 And I get this, we're publishing books about the Internet, 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:58.120 UM and UM and they were they were like they 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:00.600 they flew off the shelf. This was like, I'm one 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:04.520 of those those moments in which um um, in which 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:06.400 people had heard about the internet, but they had no 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:10.240 idea where the internet was. Um UM. So we had 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:12.640 this office and we put them sort of put a 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:14.400 phone number in the book and then people would call 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:22.640 up and they would say, is this the internet? Um? 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:25.600 And so this this went on, and then this went 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:29.840 on for for um. This kind of rolled into you know, 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.680 somebody then came along and gave me an enormous amount 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:38.280 of money um um to actually be in the be 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:43.760 in the technology business, something I knew absolutely nothing about. Um. 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:45.480 And this seems to be a pattern with you that 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:49.720 there seems to be a pattern with you that fools 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:53.400 just come spilling into your life and throw themselves in 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:57.880 your arms, whether it's with their personal uh, insights and 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:00.960 confessions and what have you, or bags of money. They 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:03.760 just give you bags of money and and actually and 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:06.440 then I write a book about them. So so I 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.080 wrote a book called burn Rate. This was in you know, 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:11.480 one of the sort of first books about about the 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:15.120 about the internet and um and it was a sort 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:20.480 of act of very conscious revenge against all of the 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:23.120 people who had given any money. And then I had 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:25.280 lost their money and they had yelled at me. So 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:31.920 is that how you revenge? I thought, yes, I thought, 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:33.520 what can I do? I have to get even with 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:35.599 these people? What can I do? I can write? But 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:39.360 they made you feel bad. They yes, it was more 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:44.200 um in those moments when you're when you're when you 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:48.319 take you you have this money, you've taken money, and 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:53.240 and against a against what nobody knows why why you've 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:56.480 gotten this money, but everybody is hoping that it will 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:02.319 it will. You know you're gonna that this is gonna work. Um, 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:05.720 And then you reach a point where you sort of 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:08.880 sort of clear that it's not gonna work. And so 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:13.079 I had this big office in New York, hundreds of people. 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:16.280 You couldn't stop the people from being hired. You would 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:18.560 peek out your door and you would see somebody bringing 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:24.040 in new desks, and people would follow. The investor began 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:26.720 to get worried, and he kind of moved in or 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:29.520 had his people move into this office. Then he was there, 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:33.360 and you would come in in the morning and everybody 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:37.040 would try to be civil to each other. Um. And 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:40.120 that would last, you know, that would last about twenty minutes. 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:42.760 And then you then you could see the faces distort 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:45.120 and then somebody would say blah blah, and then and 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:48.559 then that would immediately become become fuck you, and then 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:52.040 it would become no fuck you. Um and you would 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:55.600 do this thing and it was just this anger built until, 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:57.559 of course then you ran out of money. At least 0:11:57.600 --> 0:11:59.640 they let it out, unlike the times where they kept 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:01.880 it into They had these ticks all the time come 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.160 holding it in. You know, they wouldn't. They wanted to 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:06.600 say funk you to each other probably every twenty minutes too, 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:09.400 but they can't do that at the time, so they 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:13.080 you know. But then I was I was, I was 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:18.559 thrown out of this this company and um um. There 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:20.720 there was actually one point in this because this was 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:24.160 a remarkable time that I had gone out. We were 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:29.240 going to do a deal, um and we had flown 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.760 out to too, to the West coast to buy the 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:35.559 to buy this other company, or they are going to 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:38.200 buy us, or I can't even remember, but I do 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:43.360 know that all coming back the entire first class, I 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:45.560 was paying for every seat in first class, and it 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:49.080 was filled with I wasn't paying, but the money that 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:54.320 somehow was flowing through me um um. It was filled 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:58.320 with my bankers and lawyers, and my lead bankers were 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:01.640 coming back on the red eye. UM leaned over and said, 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:06.360 you you know you're um um, You're worth You're worth 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:11.760 a hundred million dollars. Um and um um. And he 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:13.680 had we had gone to college together, and he said, 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:17.520 I want you to buy a UM fund building at 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:21.320 the at the school. Um and uh. And then we 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:24.040 talked about what the what the name of the building 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:28.000 was going to be the Wolf Center for this and 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:33.920 and the doing deals and I got I got home 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:41.640 and um um and then for um forever after My 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:45.520 children now will remember Remember Remember you were standing there 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.640 when we were worth a hundred million dollars. Remember how 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:52.480 you acted? Remember this? And then a brief yes that 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:58.000 lasted about two weeks. Now to say that, because eventually 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:00.640 you when you do the New York magazine meeting a column, 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:04.720 I want to get to you know, your your terminology 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:08.120 for that. But as you're arriving at the place, the 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:14.080 conversation about the Wolf Center, your moment in the sun 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.320 where you're worth a hundred million dollars is around what 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:24.000 year would you say, uh, nineteen uh nineties seven? That way, 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:26.400 right around when you started. Soon after you got to 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:28.320 work with New York correct. Yeah, so I got it. 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:30.160 How does that happen? Well, I was thrown out of 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:32.680 this company and then I wrote this book. I didn't 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:34.360 know what to what. And then it was so I 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.600 had not been writing for a certain rate the past 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.160 ten years. I had thought, I can't do this anymore. 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:44.120 Gone not a possibility, um, that I can be a writer. 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:46.840 But I was thrown out of this company, and um, 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:50.360 I was what am I gonna do? But I thought revenge? 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:56.640 Um um. And you know how revenge is best served 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.640 in a book, it turns out, and I wrote this. 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:03.000 I wrote this book. I wrote it very quickly and um, 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.520 and it was incredibly satisfying and it worked, and I thought, hey, 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:10.720 I'm pretty good at this, um and um. And then 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.000 not long after the book came out in New York 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.280 magazine called me up and said, you want to write 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.680 a column about the media? Um? And again I was 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:20.960 like media, What do I know about media? But but 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:22.680 I guess in terms of it, you as a writer, 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:26.560 the person who started out wanting to write uh fiction 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:30.400 and so forth, And when you arrived on the doorstep 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:33.160 of the New York magazine to write the media column, 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:35.320 who would you become by them? Like? What was your 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:38.280 I don't want to say agenda, but what was your appetite? Then? 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:40.560 What did you want to write about? What? I just 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:43.600 wanted to You wanted revenge, as you had kind of 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:48.360 a scorched earth mentality tour anyone you didn't care for. 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.920 I found that I had a distinct ability to write 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:57.320 about people's weaknesses. I think that's probably it would you 0:15:57.360 --> 0:15:59.880 what would you call? I found it incredibly interesting? Oh 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:02.800 there is you know that person is flawed in the 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:08.000 following way? Powerful people? Yeah, powerful people or or totally 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:11.920 ordinary people. Was it more satisfying for you to powerful 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:14.440 as the hatchet job of the common man? I could 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:18.240 do that too, Um, But which was more satisfied? Well? Um, 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:22.040 it didn't make any difference to whoever was whatever, the 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:26.120 mighty and the lowly. You're like, boom boom, you didn't care. Yes, 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:29.680 you're just giving them the curb, you know. I think, 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.480 I mean ultimately was somewhat more commercial to to do 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:36.760 this for a powerful people. Now when you so, what 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:39.080 was would you say? I don't want to put any 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:41.760 words anybody's map. What term would you use? I was 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:44.320 going to say, by the way, if Trump wanted to 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:49.160 really increase his chances for this water, you would I 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:53.320 have is probably poisoned right now. So but here's looking 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.800 at you. Um the uh what would you say? Was 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:58.440 the gim? Is it a gossip column? You're writing a 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:04.400 gossip column for you know? Um? Would you know? I mean, 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:06.640 I mean, I think a gossip column is one thing. 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:12.240 This was a what is a gossip column? Um? What's 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:13.960 the difference what you wrote for the New York and 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.680 what Richard Johnson does for paid six? What's the difference? 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:22.720 I'm mine are literate and his are illiterate. I can't 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:27.159 argue with you there. I mean that's what I was interested. 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.760 I was actually really interested in just writing. Just give me. 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:35.320 I'm not interested. I was not even My subjects were 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:39.000 were secondary to the to the fact that I could 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.920 I could hang a story on these subjects I could. 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:50.040 I'm I was interested in human nature, in success, failure, drama. Yeah. Um, 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:52.080 And did you see you other than you're talking about 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.000 the revenge factor in the burn rate experience? You come 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:57.320 into this and suddenly you mean for people who don't 0:17:57.320 --> 0:17:59.760 know the media or pieces that he wrote for the 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.760 New York magazine were very important. I mean it was 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:06.720 like people were just writhing and and convulsing and you know, 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:09.600 breaking into a cold sweat and vomiting in their office 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:12.600 bathroom for fear of being written about by you. And 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:15.399 am I getting that wrong? You pressed a lot of 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:17.040 buttons in this town for a while. How many years 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.600 did you do the piece? Six years? And then I 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:24.000 went to Vanity Fair and carried on with something similar. 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:29.000 And how long was it a Vanity Fair? Four or 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:32.399 five years? I think it's over a decade. It's a 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:35.160 decade if you covery this beat, if you will. And 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.040 I'm wondering you go in that one end of that 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:40.760 and uh, I mean, I'm not gonna say it's a 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:43.320 gossip column, but other people will certainly. Have you come 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:44.679 in one end of that and you came out the 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.560 other end, how did that change you? I mean other 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:51.000 than probably you had somebody make sure nobody was gonna 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:52.600 punch you in the face when you walked out of 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:55.920 walked into the Four Seasons restaurant. Did anybody ever try 0:18:56.000 --> 0:19:01.120 to get you in any way threaten you sault show. 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.000 But they but they intended to move tables and restaurants. 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:07.760 Literally you had your table table five at Michael's and 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:11.919 so forth. And did you feel that people were uh 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:16.000 concerned about you? I I felt that there are people 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:21.360 who intensely disliked me. You didn't care. No, you thought 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:25.520 the benefits of writing the calm outweigh the I mean, 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:30.480 I can't tell the pleasures of writing this column were. Um. 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:32.879 I mean, I've never been I mean, it is the 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:38.040 happiest job I can possibly in a fine Did you 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:40.760 ever write any I forgot I totally blank out. I mean, 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:42.440 I have a good memory. Did you ever have write 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:46.280 anything really shitty about me? Do you remember? It's? Okay? 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:49.280 Go ahead? Well now that's the other other other thing 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:51.399 is that I can never remember who I wrote this 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:54.000 stuff about. You are going to It's like an edge 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:56.120 of sketch and you just shake it when you're done. Right, God, 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:59.840 your memory, You're like, okay, God. You would meet Today's Wednesday. 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.480 You would meet people at at at parties and um, 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:05.520 and you would saying, oh god, him, you're really glad 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:07.479 to meet you, really admired you, and they would look 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:10.840 at you like me like I'm a crazy person, because 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:12.520 it turned out it was, and I had written then 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:15.879 some horrible thing about them, which I had literally no memory. 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:17.760 I love that. There'll be a great scene in a 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:20.280 movie where you're there and you're this powerful columnist and 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:22.880 you need an assistant behind you going. You called him 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:27.760 a douche last month, he said he was a ginormous douche, 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.120 and you're like, did I, Oh god, him, I don't 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:33.679 remember that at all. No. Now, now I get you know, 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:35.960 when people have been sort of cold to me and this, 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:39.240 I go and I search it Michael Wolfe, the following person, 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:44.000 and and then I you often find ever written ah yes, 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:49.840 and then when you come out of that, I got 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:53.840 um a kind of thrown out of New York Magazine 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:59.320 because I tried to buy it. Um doing deals again. Yeah, 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:03.720 so New York Magazine, it's it's it's owners put it 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:07.360 up for sale, and I thought, why not? Um um 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:11.960 so I um, you know, I I pulled together a 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:20.480 bunch of more billionaires. Yeah, this New York part. I mean, 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:22.720 these are these guys that was like, oh my god, 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:26.600 um um and um don't you love New York? I 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:30.320 pulled together a bunch of billionaires, so you just had 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:32.720 to call them up another toy for them to play 0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:36.200 um and um in matter of fact. And they were 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:43.360 so so um um, kind of kind of enthralled with 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:46.640 knowing each other that they missed the fact that another billionaire, 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:50.960 Um Wasserstein, came along and and bought it out from 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:53.560 under us. So I had to leave. Then it turned 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:59.399 out it was like oh oh oh um, So I 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:01.240 left and then went to Vanity Fair. What was the 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:04.359 difference between the two other than the weekly? That that 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:08.560 was a fundamental difference. Yeah, yeah, and and you were 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:11.040 just you know, so Vanity Fair you essentially had to 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:13.960 write two months in advance, so it was very hard 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:17.920 to be that. I mean, Vanity Fair was was um. 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:23.120 Did you enjoy the difference? I preferred the weekly? Yeah? 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:25.320 What was the piece that you were particularly proud of 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:28.560 for Vanity Fair? Profile you did that you were pleased with? Name? 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:31.600 You know, name one that you enjoyed writing, you know, 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:33.240 you know, because it candle would be about two months 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:36.400 of disinventing your spleed right and began to be revenge. 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:41.560 And did you write one about somebody you admired and liked? Well, well, here, 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:47.160 you know, I had written. I had written many pieces 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:52.320 about the head of Disney, Michael Eisener. Um. This was 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:55.720 a man who really no one liked ever, apparently in 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:59.880 his entire life. UM. And I had written these these 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:03.960 pieces and then and then he UM. He got to 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:09.359 a particularly perilous point in his um, in his tenure 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:11.800 as the CEO of of Disney, and he was on 0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:14.600 the verge of being thrown out. And Barry Diller called 0:23:14.600 --> 0:23:17.679 me up and said, I would like you to go 0:23:17.880 --> 0:23:22.040 and see um, see Michael Eisner and and do a 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:25.800 piece about him. Everyone is now writing terrible things, so 0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:29.720 I know that you'll have to write the opposite of that. UM. 0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:33.560 And I thought, I wonder if that's that's true. So anyway, 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:36.000 so I went to see Michael Eisner, which was embarrassing 0:23:36.000 --> 0:23:39.680 because I had written these these things. UM, I thought 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:42.960