1 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: Thank you. As you can see, I'm moving very gingerly 3 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: because I I'm an orthopedic disaster here. Literally tomorrow morning, 4 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to go to n y U and have 5 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 1: hip replacement surgery tomorrow morning. No, no, no, I'm not 6 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: saying that for sympathy, but I wanted to say that. 7 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: I wanted to say. It occurred to me that if 8 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: I don't for any reason, if I don't survive the surgery, 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: if I don't make it out of this surgery, then 10 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: this interview tonight will be my last interview for Here's 11 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: the Thing. And I kind of thought about the night, thought, 12 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: if this is gonna be my last interview, who do 13 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: I want it to be with? Who would be the last? 14 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: Is it Michelle Obama? Or is it to Taylor Swift? 15 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: Is it? Uh? You know? Who is it in the 16 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: firmament there that I want to interview? And there was 17 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: only one name I could come up with. If I 18 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: had to do my last interview, it would be with 19 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:16,119 Speaker 1: our guests, and I please welcome author Michael Wolfe. So um, 20 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: I want to begin by saying that those are some 21 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: very nice shoes you have on. They look like new 22 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: shoes to me. Have you been doing a lot of 23 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: shopping lately. I've always done a lot of shopping. So 24 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: before we get into the obvious subject, which you are 25 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 1: certainly have talked to death, I'm very grateful to you 26 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: being here. But I'm always interested in people's origins in 27 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: terms of their career, and I was wondering if you 28 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: could talk first about where you grew up. And you 29 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: grew up in Patterson. I was born in Patterson and 30 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: grew up on a on a somewhat whiter hill as 31 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: rising out of Patterson, um and um um, and then 32 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: came to New York. He was in the advertising business. 33 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: My mother was a newspaper reporter, so there was some 34 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: journalistic DNA in that household. Oh totally. Who did your 35 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: mother write for Paterson Evening News daily newspaper. The political 36 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: bent in the household was what, if anything, we were Democrats. 37 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: My father was sort of a back room New Jersey politico. 38 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: He was never indicted. Though. That's a short list. It's 39 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: uh and and uh. When you finished school, you went 40 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: to college at started at vaster Llege um and then 41 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: I came and then I got a job at the 42 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: New York Times and moved to New York and went 43 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: to Columbia to the journalism school. No, it's an unfinished 44 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: I get. I was a junior when I transferred to 45 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: Columbia History. And you were at the New York Times 46 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: for how long? And what was that experience like for you? 47 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: It was a horrible experience. Um, it was one of 48 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: those things. You know, this is the only thing I 49 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: ever wanted to do was was to go to the 50 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,119 Speaker 1: New York Times. And um, so I got a job. 51 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,839 Speaker 1: I was twenty. I think it was a copy boy 52 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: and I walked in and I think literally in ten minutes, 53 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: I knew that if this was life, I was not 54 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: going to make it. Why it just everyone seems so depressed, 55 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: seemed there and and and there was something about the 56 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: New York Times that it's on these copy desks was 57 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: very gray and in an era it was filled with smoke. 58 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: And also everybody had a tick a literally yea. Um, 59 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: so it explains a lot. Actually I've been so that 60 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: was so I was there for about about a year. Um. 61 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: And then basically when there had a job since well, 62 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: did you did you sense early on you were what 63 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: age when you were at the Times? How long we 64 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: got the Times? Twenty? About a year? She were just 65 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: there for a year. And did you sense early on 66 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: that the a that you wanted to be a writer? 67 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: Did you know you wanted to be a writer. Yes, 68 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: I mean there was no sort of no question of, 69 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: no questions, and you knew what you wanted to write 70 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: or you weren't sure fiction nonfiction? You wanted to write 71 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: non fiction. I know I wanted to write fiction, but 72 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 1: you wanted to write fiction. Yes, some people would say 73 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: that you have written fiction. The truth is I can't 74 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: write fiction, so it must not be. But but but 75 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: you wanted to write fiction. What happened? No one was 76 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: buying your no no stories. No worse than that they 77 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: bought So I wrote it. I wrote a first book. Um. Um, 78 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: when I was twenty five, I wrote I wrote a 79 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: book and it was non fiction, but it felt like fiction. 80 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: I mean I sort of come out of what used 81 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: to be called the new journalism and um, and it 82 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: was really right in writing using fictional techniques to write 83 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: about real things. Um. But that was a moment and 84 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: say in the in the in which they sort of said, okay, 85 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: you did that. That's good. But now you can do 86 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: what real writers do. You'll write a novel. They gave 87 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: me a big advance to do this, and and I 88 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: moved for your first book. This was my second book. 89 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: So my first book was this was a new journalism 90 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: book called White Kids, um um, which I I think 91 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: it was years. Why were they giving out big advances 92 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: then for you if you weren't you weren't an established writer, 93 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: Hall I did. I mean, I wrote this book and 94 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: it was quite success. I mean I got a little 95 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: little notoriety in anyway. Um. And then so they gave 96 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: me an advance to write this novel. I thought, great, 97 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to be a novelist. I moved to Europe. 98 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: I moved to Rome. Um. I thought, I saw the 99 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: whole thing, um, the whole life in front of me. 100 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: Um and and I sat down at a at a 101 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 1: typewriter then and um um and I began to write 102 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: the first page of this book over and over and 103 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: over and over again. I mean, this was bad. This 104 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: went on for six years of um. It's like the 105 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: shining But in Rome, my very promising career just seeped 106 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: away every day until there was no career left. At 107 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: some point, I would I would mention, I guess you 108 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: realized you didn't want to work for somebody else when 109 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 1: you decided to write books. By this point, no one, 110 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: no one would hire me, so I was it was 111 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: not really a question yes on your own. I had 112 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 1: a friend from college. This was the eighties so, and 113 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: he had made a lot of money on Wall Street 114 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: and started his own firm. And as I'm still trying 115 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: to write this book, he said to me, listen, you've 116 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: become an embarrassment to everyone who has ever known you. 117 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: Come downtown. I'll give you an office and we'll do deals. 118 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: I had never even heard. I didn't even know there 119 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: was such a thing. Um, but I was so grateful. 120 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: I just immediately put it down and bought a suit, 121 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: went downtown, and suddenly we were sort of doing deals. 122 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: This was give us an example of one deal you did. 123 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: I'm intrigued. What was the deal that was done? Well, 124 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: we started to invest in He said, you know about media, 125 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: and well, let's we'll we'll put money into media companies. UM. Now, 126 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,119 Speaker 1: I had no idea anything about media, and never even 127 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: you know, other than the fact that I had written 128 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: a book. UM worked at a newspaper. That's what I 129 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,239 Speaker 1: knew about the media. But it was like, whatever interests 130 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: you will do it. I looked around and I said 131 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: the National Lampoon magazine. Um, it had peaked and then 132 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: it had gone down. And I thought, but it was 133 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: a public company. We could potentially take over this thing, 134 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: and UM, you know, I could buy myself a job. 135 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: Did he listen to you, Yes, yes, we brought the magazine. Yeah, 136 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: we we UM invested in this, made you know, and 137 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: then somebody else came along. This was the eighties, So 138 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,559 Speaker 1: you invest in this, and somebody else came along, UM 139 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: and invested more, bought it, UM, and we made a 140 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: ton of money. He said, to see, it's easy. We're 141 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: doing deals and and then so you're a novelist and 142 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: you're in Rome, and then you come back and you're 143 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: doing deals with this gentleman. And after that is that 144 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: when you get into the magazine business. And when I 145 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: got into the internet business. So that it was UM 146 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: there was a series of steps here and and UM, 147 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:42,599 Speaker 1: so I I found myself running this UM this a 148 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: small publishing company which started to publish books about the Internet. 149 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: And I get this, we're publishing books about the Internet, 150 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: UM and UM and they were they were like they 151 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: they flew off the shelf. This was like, I'm one 152 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: of those those moments in which um um, in which 153 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: people had heard about the internet, but they had no 154 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: idea where the internet was. Um UM. So we had 155 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: this office and we put them sort of put a 156 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: phone number in the book and then people would call 157 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: up and they would say, is this the internet? Um? 158 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: And so this this went on, and then this went 159 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: on for for um. This kind of rolled into you know, 160 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 1: somebody then came along and gave me an enormous amount 161 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: of money um um to actually be in the be 162 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: in the technology business, something I knew absolutely nothing about. Um. 163 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: And this seems to be a pattern with you that 164 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: there seems to be a pattern with you that fools 165 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: just come spilling into your life and throw themselves in 166 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: your arms, whether it's with their personal uh, insights and 167 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: confessions and what have you, or bags of money. They 168 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: just give you bags of money and and actually and 169 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: then I write a book about them. So so I 170 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: wrote a book called burn Rate. This was in you know, 171 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: one of the sort of first books about about the 172 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: about the internet and um and it was a sort 173 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: of act of very conscious revenge against all of the 174 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: people who had given any money. And then I had 175 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: lost their money and they had yelled at me. So 176 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: is that how you revenge? I thought, yes, I thought, 177 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: what can I do? I have to get even with 178 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,599 Speaker 1: these people? What can I do? I can write? But 179 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: they made you feel bad. They yes, it was more 180 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: um in those moments when you're when you're when you 181 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: take you you have this money, you've taken money, and 182 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: and against a against what nobody knows why why you've 183 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: gotten this money, but everybody is hoping that it will 184 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 1: it will. You know you're gonna that this is gonna work. Um, 185 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: And then you reach a point where you sort of 186 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: sort of clear that it's not gonna work. And so 187 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 1: I had this big office in New York, hundreds of people. 188 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: You couldn't stop the people from being hired. You would 189 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: peek out your door and you would see somebody bringing 190 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: in new desks, and people would follow. The investor began 191 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: to get worried, and he kind of moved in or 192 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: had his people move into this office. Then he was there, 193 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: and you would come in in the morning and everybody 194 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: would try to be civil to each other. Um. And 195 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: that would last, you know, that would last about twenty minutes. 196 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: And then you then you could see the faces distort 197 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: and then somebody would say blah blah, and then and 198 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 1: then that would immediately become become fuck you, and then 199 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: it would become no fuck you. Um and you would 200 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: do this thing and it was just this anger built until, 201 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:57,559 Speaker 1: of course then you ran out of money. At least 202 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: they let it out, unlike the times where they kept 203 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: it into They had these ticks all the time come 204 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: holding it in. You know, they wouldn't. They wanted to 205 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: say funk you to each other probably every twenty minutes too, 206 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: but they can't do that at the time, so they 207 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: you know. But then I was I was, I was 208 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: thrown out of this this company and um um. There 209 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: there was actually one point in this because this was 210 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: a remarkable time that I had gone out. We were 211 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: going to do a deal, um and we had flown 212 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: out to too, to the West coast to buy the 213 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 1: to buy this other company, or they are going to 214 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: buy us, or I can't even remember, but I do 215 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: know that all coming back the entire first class, I 216 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: was paying for every seat in first class, and it 217 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 1: was filled with I wasn't paying, but the money that 218 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: somehow was flowing through me um um. It was filled 219 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: with my bankers and lawyers, and my lead bankers were 220 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: coming back on the red eye. UM leaned over and said, 221 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: you you know you're um um, You're worth You're worth 222 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: a hundred million dollars. Um and um um. And he 223 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: had we had gone to college together, and he said, 224 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: I want you to buy a UM fund building at 225 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 1: the at the school. Um and uh. And then we 226 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: talked about what the what the name of the building 227 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: was going to be the Wolf Center for this and 228 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: and the doing deals and I got I got home 229 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: and um um and then for um forever after My 230 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: children now will remember Remember Remember you were standing there 231 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: when we were worth a hundred million dollars. Remember how 232 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: you acted? Remember this? And then a brief yes that 233 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: lasted about two weeks. Now to say that, because eventually 234 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: you when you do the New York magazine meeting a column, 235 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: I want to get to you know, your your terminology 236 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: for that. But as you're arriving at the place, the 237 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: conversation about the Wolf Center, your moment in the sun 238 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 1: where you're worth a hundred million dollars is around what 239 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: year would you say, uh, nineteen uh nineties seven? That way, 240 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: right around when you started. Soon after you got to 241 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: work with New York correct. Yeah, so I got it. 242 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: How does that happen? Well, I was thrown out of 243 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: this company and then I wrote this book. I didn't 244 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: know what to what. And then it was so I 245 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: had not been writing for a certain rate the past 246 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: ten years. I had thought, I can't do this anymore. 247 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: Gone not a possibility, um, that I can be a writer. 248 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: But I was thrown out of this company, and um, 249 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: I was what am I gonna do? But I thought revenge? 250 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: Um um. And you know how revenge is best served 251 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: in a book, it turns out, and I wrote this. 252 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: I wrote this book. I wrote it very quickly and um, 253 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: and it was incredibly satisfying and it worked, and I thought, hey, 254 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: I'm pretty good at this, um and um. And then 255 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: not long after the book came out in New York 256 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: magazine called me up and said, you want to write 257 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: a column about the media? Um? And again I was 258 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: like media, What do I know about media? But but 259 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: I guess in terms of it, you as a writer, 260 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: the person who started out wanting to write uh fiction 261 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: and so forth, And when you arrived on the doorstep 262 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: of the New York magazine to write the media column, 263 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: who would you become by them? Like? What was your 264 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: I don't want to say agenda, but what was your appetite? Then? 265 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: What did you want to write about? What? I just 266 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: wanted to You wanted revenge, as you had kind of 267 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: a scorched earth mentality tour anyone you didn't care for. 268 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: I found that I had a distinct ability to write 269 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: about people's weaknesses. I think that's probably it would you 270 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: what would you call? I found it incredibly interesting? Oh 271 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: there is you know that person is flawed in the 272 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: following way? Powerful people? Yeah, powerful people or or totally 273 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: ordinary people. Was it more satisfying for you to powerful 274 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: as the hatchet job of the common man? I could 275 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: do that too, Um, But which was more satisfied? Well? Um, 276 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: it didn't make any difference to whoever was whatever, the 277 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: mighty and the lowly. You're like, boom boom, you didn't care. Yes, 278 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: you're just giving them the curb, you know. I think, 279 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: I mean ultimately was somewhat more commercial to to do 280 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: this for a powerful people. Now when you so, what 281 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: was would you say? I don't want to put any 282 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: words anybody's map. What term would you use? I was 283 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: going to say, by the way, if Trump wanted to 284 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: really increase his chances for this water, you would I 285 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: have is probably poisoned right now. So but here's looking 286 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: at you. Um the uh what would you say? Was 287 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: the gim? Is it a gossip column? You're writing a 288 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: gossip column for you know? Um? Would you know? I mean, 289 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I think a gossip column is one thing. 290 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: This was a what is a gossip column? Um? What's 291 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: the difference what you wrote for the New York and 292 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: what Richard Johnson does for paid six? What's the difference? 293 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: I'm mine are literate and his are illiterate. I can't 294 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: argue with you there. I mean that's what I was interested. 295 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: I was actually really interested in just writing. Just give me. 296 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: I'm not interested. I was not even My subjects were 297 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: were secondary to the to the fact that I could 298 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: I could hang a story on these subjects I could. 299 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: I'm I was interested in human nature, in success, failure, drama. Yeah. Um, 300 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: And did you see you other than you're talking about 301 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: the revenge factor in the burn rate experience? You come 302 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: into this and suddenly you mean for people who don't 303 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: know the media or pieces that he wrote for the 304 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: New York magazine were very important. I mean it was 305 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: like people were just writhing and and convulsing and you know, 306 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: breaking into a cold sweat and vomiting in their office 307 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: bathroom for fear of being written about by you. And 308 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: am I getting that wrong? You pressed a lot of 309 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: buttons in this town for a while. How many years 310 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: did you do the piece? Six years? And then I 311 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: went to Vanity Fair and carried on with something similar. 312 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: And how long was it a Vanity Fair? Four or 313 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: five years? I think it's over a decade. It's a 314 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: decade if you covery this beat, if you will. And 315 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: I'm wondering you go in that one end of that 316 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: and uh, I mean, I'm not gonna say it's a 317 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: gossip column, but other people will certainly. Have you come 318 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 1: in one end of that and you came out the 319 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: other end, how did that change you? I mean other 320 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: than probably you had somebody make sure nobody was gonna 321 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: punch you in the face when you walked out of 322 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: walked into the Four Seasons restaurant. Did anybody ever try 323 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: to get you in any way threaten you sault show. 324 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: But they but they intended to move tables and restaurants. 325 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: Literally you had your table table five at Michael's and 326 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 1: so forth. And did you feel that people were uh 327 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: concerned about you? I I felt that there are people 328 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 1: who intensely disliked me. You didn't care. No, you thought 329 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: the benefits of writing the calm outweigh the I mean, 330 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: I can't tell the pleasures of writing this column were. Um. 331 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: I mean, I've never been I mean, it is the 332 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: happiest job I can possibly in a fine Did you 333 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: ever write any I forgot I totally blank out. I mean, 334 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: I have a good memory. Did you ever have write 335 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: anything really shitty about me? Do you remember? It's? Okay? 336 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: Go ahead? Well now that's the other other other thing 337 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: is that I can never remember who I wrote this 338 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: stuff about. You are going to It's like an edge 339 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 1: of sketch and you just shake it when you're done. Right, God, 340 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: your memory, You're like, okay, God. You would meet Today's Wednesday. 341 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: You would meet people at at at parties and um, 342 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: and you would saying, oh god, him, you're really glad 343 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:07,479 Speaker 1: to meet you, really admired you, and they would look 344 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: at you like me like I'm a crazy person, because 345 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: it turned out it was, and I had written then 346 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: some horrible thing about them, which I had literally no memory. 347 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: I love that. There'll be a great scene in a 348 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: movie where you're there and you're this powerful columnist and 349 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: you need an assistant behind you going. You called him 350 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: a douche last month, he said he was a ginormous douche, 351 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 1: and you're like, did I, Oh god, him, I don't 352 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: remember that at all. No. Now, now I get you know, 353 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: when people have been sort of cold to me and this, 354 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: I go and I search it Michael Wolfe, the following person, 355 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: and and then I you often find ever written ah yes, 356 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: and then when you come out of that, I got 357 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: um a kind of thrown out of New York Magazine 358 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: because I tried to buy it. Um doing deals again. Yeah, 359 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: so New York Magazine, it's it's it's owners put it 360 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 1: up for sale, and I thought, why not? Um um 361 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: so I um, you know, I I pulled together a 362 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: bunch of more billionaires. Yeah, this New York part. I mean, 363 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: these are these guys that was like, oh my god, 364 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: um um and um don't you love New York? I 365 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: pulled together a bunch of billionaires, so you just had 366 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: to call them up another toy for them to play 367 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: um and um in matter of fact. And they were 368 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:43,360 Speaker 1: so so um um, kind of kind of enthralled with 369 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 1: knowing each other that they missed the fact that another billionaire, 370 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 1: Um Wasserstein, came along and and bought it out from 371 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: under us. So I had to leave. Then it turned 372 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: out it was like oh oh oh um, So I 373 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: left and then went to Vanity Fair. What was the 374 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: difference between the two other than the weekly? That that 375 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: was a fundamental difference. Yeah, yeah, and and you were 376 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: just you know, so Vanity Fair you essentially had to 377 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: write two months in advance, so it was very hard 378 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: to be that. I mean, Vanity Fair was was um. 379 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 1: Did you enjoy the difference? I preferred the weekly? Yeah? 380 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: What was the piece that you were particularly proud of 381 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: for Vanity Fair? Profile you did that you were pleased with? Name? 382 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: You know, name one that you enjoyed writing, you know, 383 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: you know, because it candle would be about two months 384 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 1: of disinventing your spleed right and began to be revenge. 385 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: And did you write one about somebody you admired and liked? Well, well, here, 386 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 1: you know, I had written. I had written many pieces 387 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: about the head of Disney, Michael Eisener. Um. This was 388 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: a man who really no one liked ever, apparently in 389 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: his entire life. UM. And I had written these these 390 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: pieces and then and then he UM. He got to 391 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: a particularly perilous point in his um, in his tenure 392 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: as the CEO of of Disney, and he was on 393 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: the verge of being thrown out. And Barry Diller called 394 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: me up and said, I would like you to go 395 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: and see um, see Michael Eisner and and do a 396 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: piece about him. Everyone is now writing terrible things, so 397 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: I know that you'll have to write the opposite of that. UM. 398 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: And I thought, I wonder if that's that's true. So anyway, 399 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: so I went to see Michael Eisner, which was embarrassing 400 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 1: because I had written these these things. UM, I thought 401 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: this guy is great, so I wrote it. I wrote 402 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: a very you pretend that he was great. Because Barry 403 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 1: Dealer asked you too, I found you found the greatness 404 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: in this. This went in and I thought, it is true. 405 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: Everyone is saying you're terrible, So therefore I have to 406 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: look at this in another way. And it turns out 407 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: when I look at it through that lens. Oh my god, 408 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: I love this guy. Did that launch a del uge 409 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: of positive pieces on you. Did you have a complete 410 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: change of heart? No, are you like Ebenezer Scrooge? After 411 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: the visitations and you're like, God, I love this guy, 412 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: that guy and that guy. It was a one time experience. 413 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: My conversation continues after the break out of the New 414 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: York for many years, and I've been posting events and 415 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: cutting ribbons amazing money for charities and the auctioneer for 416 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: this and I've been, you know, meandering around my quadrant 417 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: of New York society, if you will, most to the 418 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: arts related. And as I've mentioned that, people you know 419 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: Trump is someone who was as an absentee. He's a 420 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: drive by figure in New York society. He had come 421 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: tuxedo on the wife, who's lovely, by the way, is 422 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: in the gown, it's red carpet, it's photo photo photo. 423 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: But he's never a tablemate. You're never sitting down and 424 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: shooting the fat with Trump and getting to know him 425 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: or learn about him. He never goes to the event. 426 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: He's in photo up gone. It's a drive by reality. 427 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: So when people said to me, did you have a 428 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: meet him. I said, I met him, but I never 429 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: got to know him. What was your contact with him 430 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: from the New York Magazine days VF days? What was 431 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: that like? He used to call me up at New 432 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: York Magazine. Um, and I have no idea why. I 433 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: was the media columnist, and he was as interested in 434 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 1: the media as I was, as anyone was. So I 435 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: got the calls. Now, the calls were not really about 436 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: the media. They were about either something that had been 437 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: said about him in the magazine or more more likely, 438 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: something that had not been said. But he wanted says, yes, 439 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 1: why wasn't he in this? And why wasn't Then he 440 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 1: would he would rail and and and and vamp and 441 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,479 Speaker 1: did he call and pretend to be his own publicist ever? 442 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: Where you? No, No, he was very you know that story, right? 443 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: Yeah he was. He was straightforward, um and um and 444 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: and we we were sort of friends. I mean, why 445 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: there's no reason not to be not to be friendly? Um. 446 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: Because he would also heap enormous amount of flattery on 447 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 1: on on you you're the best. He's a backslapper, and 448 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: he cajoles people, and he and he says everything he 449 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: needs to kind of enlist people in his cause he's 450 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 1: very warm. Yeah, he actually says much more than he 451 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: needs to say. He just piles it shovels shovel right. 452 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: I mentioned this to you backstage. I'm not sand backing here. 453 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 1: I said, the book seems in not in in terms 454 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: of your writing and the thinking. But like when I 455 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: first saw the book and it came to me, I 456 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: was stunned because I said, this looks like a book 457 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: that would be in a prop in a movie. It 458 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: looks like something the prop department ran off really quickly. 459 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: Like in the movie a guy named Michael Wolfe has 460 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: written a book about Trump called Fire. It just looks 461 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: like a really cheap Yeah, I told you her, Nry Holt. 462 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: Then they whipped this thing off. They had this book. 463 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: They knew you were a hot property to do this 464 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 1: thing was just smoking. And what happened and they said, 465 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: who cares what the cover is, get it out. It 466 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: used to be on the first the first printing. It 467 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 1: was actually even embossed um. And then they decided I 468 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: was screw that. Let's just get him out there. I mean, 469 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: I have said people will say to me, I don't 470 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: want to be overly self referential here. But when I 471 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,199 Speaker 1: do this trump stick on TV, people say to me, 472 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: what do you do? And literally the three beats of 473 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: what I do are embodied in this photograph. I tell 474 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: people left, eyebrow up, right, eyebrow down, and stick your 475 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: mouth out, that you're trying to suck the windshield out 476 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 1: of a car. It's just And I said, that's it. 477 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: There's the photo that it this is it? This picture? 478 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: I swear that's me actually. So so you know him 479 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: in the way that you know a lot of the 480 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: powerful and the and the movers and shakers of two 481 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:22,479 Speaker 1: one to life. And when his when his political career, 482 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 1: uh starts to take off, does your relationship with him change? 483 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean I didn't really have that kind 484 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: of relationship with him. It was just passing if he 485 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: saw me in a crowd. You know. It's a guy 486 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: you know, you know he looks when whenever he's out 487 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: in at night or at a party. Um, it's it's 488 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: always he's looking for someone he knows, I mean, he 489 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: has to connect with, and that's what it is. He's 490 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: looking for recognition, um. And he's looking for other other 491 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: people who he thinks are worthy of him. So I'm 492 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: I would be like a like the in between lean 493 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: person that he would get onto until he saw somebody 494 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: else and then it was UM. And that's so that 495 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: was that was completely it. So nothing, no, no hostility 496 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: in this relationship at all. And when so in two 497 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: thousand in June two thousand and sixteen, I did a piece, 498 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: you know, so he had essentially vanquished all of the 499 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: other Republicans. He was going to be the nominee. I mean, 500 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: he was not going to be president in any logic 501 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: that existed anywhere, but he was going to be the nominee. 502 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: And I went out to do a UM to do 503 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: an interview with him for the Hollywood Reporter. UM. I 504 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: went out because I went out to l a he 505 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: was doing the UM I think he was doing the 506 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: Fallon show UM, and so I was supposed to meet 507 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: him there in the green room. And then it was like, 508 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: so I come in and it and it was a 509 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: perfect Trump moment of of of the kind of flattery 510 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: that actually is kind of really works. I mean I 511 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: walked into the door and he's like, oh my god, 512 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: Michael Wolfe, UM, they really send the big guns. UM. 513 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: And then one of his aids actually Hope Picks comes 514 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: in and says, you, Mr Trump, you have you have 515 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: forty five minutes, and he goes, forty five minutes. You 516 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: don't give Michael will forty five minutes. UM. And then 517 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: he says UM. And he says, Okay, I gotta do 518 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: the show. Come over to my house in Beverly Hills 519 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: afterwards and we'll sit around. UM. And at first I thought, 520 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: my god, he is a house in Beverly Hill. So 521 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: it turns out, Um, he has a house in Beverly Hills. UM, 522 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: right on the corner of Sunset and Rodeo, this huge place. 523 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: I meet him there and he, you know, takes me 524 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: to the refrigerator and it's filled with pints of Hogandah's 525 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: ice cream. It's all the whole thing. He takes out 526 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: too and throws me one, and he takes on one 527 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: and there we sit on the couch with the with 528 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: the ice cream and and it doesn't and it's did 529 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: you like ice cream or did you know lose the 530 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: sacrifice you were making for your career? Um? And I 531 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: sort of put it there. And then he goes UM 532 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: to Jared Kushner, and Jared Kushner comes over and has 533 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: to pick up the ice and my ice cream. Yeah, 534 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: it's all becoming clear to me now now. But what 535 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: I want to ask you is, is that is that 536 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: you know, there's been abundant criticisms of Trump in terms 537 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: of his demeanor and his behavior and his he's an 538 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: emotional mass, he's in over his head. You know, we've 539 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: heard a lot of that for a while. But I 540 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: had not heard the assertion that Trump was betting against 541 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: himself and thought he would lose the election but nonetheless 542 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: win if by losing the election he would ultimately gain 543 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: some another oxygen tank for his media career. When did 544 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: that first come to your knowledge? Well, it was you know, 545 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: so I went into the White House shortly after January, 546 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: and yeah, and I was just sort of began a 547 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: series of conversations to to no real point, um with 548 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: with the people around Trump, I mean, with with his 549 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: senior staff. And I was kind of under the protections 550 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: I suppose of Steve Bannon, um um. And did Bannon 551 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: arranged and broker your admission into the basically I mean 552 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: everyone Kelly and Conway, I mean everyone in Trump himself. 553 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: You know, I had asked during the transition, I had 554 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: approached I went to Trump and I said, I'd like 555 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: to come in as an observer. And he thought I 556 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: was asking for a job. He had no idea what 557 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: the jobs were in the in the White House, and 558 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: I guess deputy assistant observer was a was a potential job. Um. 559 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: And I said, no, I want to write a book, Michael, 560 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: you might number one observer, top observer anyway. And I said, no, no, 561 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: I want to I want to write a book. And 562 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: you could just see him deflated. The idea of a 563 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: book was so boring to him, um um. But he said, yeah, yeah, okay, whatever, 564 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: um um. And I went back to Steve Bannon and 565 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: I said, and I said, he says, um, this is 566 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: what he said, whatever, And he says whatever is good. 567 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: And so that sort of became the fuel on or 568 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: the basis on which that I was. I I became 569 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: sort of part of this group in the White House, 570 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: and they would talk to me, you know, you know 571 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: in ways that that began to change over over the 572 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: over the course of when I was there. First that 573 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: was kind of raw raw um, and then it was 574 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: ra rab but you know, with with their with their 575 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,919 Speaker 1: eyes eyebrows going up, and then it was raw rab 576 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: with a gun to their head. Um. You mentioned in 577 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 1: the book that a turning point is when he talks 578 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: about Obama wire tapping them, and that that was a 579 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: big turning point for the morale inside the West Wing. 580 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,760 Speaker 1: And then they began to and then actually these people 581 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: really began to talk in you know, try to understand 582 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: how it was that they got here. And then the 583 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:38,320 Speaker 1: whole anomally of this, of this situation, including the fact 584 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: that they weren't supposed to be there, that all of 585 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,959 Speaker 1: this was that they all would have been better off 586 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: in some way not winning, and they all had kind 587 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: of planned not to win. And in fact, everything that's 588 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,240 Speaker 1: going on now, the whole Russian investigation, the money laundering, 589 00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: all of this is really really the f foundation here 590 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: is that you know, and I compared it to the 591 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: producers that you know, they go in and you know, 592 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,919 Speaker 1: and and the the act of winning, like the act 593 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: of a hit show, means that they're comes in a 594 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: disaster exposed. You know, they're crux um. And that's the 595 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: sense someone without obviously violating your your confidences and everything 596 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: of your sources or whatever, but someone actually said that 597 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: to you, that that was it more than one person, 598 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,919 Speaker 1: more than one piety people. Yes, I mean I think 599 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: there's there was literally nobody who expected this to happen. 600 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: I mean, and I mean they felt the same way. 601 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,439 Speaker 1: I mean, they read the New York Times like everybody else. 602 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: It's like, this is not going to happen. Um, um. 603 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,879 Speaker 1: And you know, at least of all, you know it 604 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: was he was the one who who I mean, he 605 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: was the one most of all who was surprised by 606 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: this outcome. But Bannon, from what I read in your book, 607 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: he believed he saw that late shifting wind the night 608 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: of even even day, in days in advance, what's the 609 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: call me emails things, puts the big bullet in her 610 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: and blow us a big hole rather a torpedo in 611 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: her side. Bannon begins to see that there, maybe, just 612 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: maybe there's a slim chance. I went to Bannon took 613 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: over the campaign on August fifteen, UM, two thousand and sixteen. 614 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: And Um. I went up a week later to see 615 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: him in Trump Tower, UM. And we sat down and 616 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: he said he's gonna win. Um, We're going to do this. 617 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 1: The path to victory is Florida, Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania. Now, 618 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: I mean I've spent I've been around politicians before and 619 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 1: they always say this kind of stuff UM, and I 620 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: and I thought, yeah, yeah, sure, and I didn't even 621 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: write this um. But it turned out obviously to be 622 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: absolutely true. And what do you credit Bannon, who we've 623 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: obviously been uh compelled to study his past and his 624 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: CV and everything in Hollywood and Goldman Sacks and his 625 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 1: Navy career and stuff. Then he's got no political experience 626 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: prior to this, what do you attribute him his political acumen? 627 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: Because when you think about it, he was right. I mean, 628 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: he he he really saw if they were going to 629 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: have a shot, they had to kind of split the 630 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 1: arrow here in those four states, and they did. In 631 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: your time speaking with him, what impressions did you get 632 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,839 Speaker 1: about him? Well, at first, I mean would share them 633 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,760 Speaker 1: with us, all positive impressions. I mean, I mean, Bannon 634 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: is a is a UM is smart, insightful UM. And 635 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: his conversation as you, I mean, when he starts, you 636 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,720 Speaker 1: really don't want him to stop, and he doesn't stop, 637 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:54,320 Speaker 1: so it's um um. Yeah. But he had an insight, 638 00:37:54,520 --> 00:38:00,359 Speaker 1: and the insight was about white working class people lan 639 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 1: um jipped and screwed and and and and everything that 640 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:12,280 Speaker 1: we've sort of come to understand was under this underground anger. Um, 641 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: and Bannon was on top of it. Yeah. So Bannon 642 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: is if I get this correctly, he's the one person 643 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:24,240 Speaker 1: who isn't surprised. May maybe he's mild surprised or uh, intoxicated, 644 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: whatever you want to say, that they won. But but 645 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 1: he really was a believer. He believed there was a chance. 646 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: He believed this movement could happen and it could elect 647 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: the president he was At the same time, Um, I 648 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 1: I think it was astounding to him that the president 649 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: that that was going to be elected was Donald Trump. 650 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: Does Bannon come and he's ready to govern? Because I mean, 651 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: there are some really really troublesome and malignant policies that 652 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 1: are being carried forth by this administration. Who's who's in 653 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: charge of that? Who's because Trump's not a policy is 654 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 1: bat was banned in charge? Well began it was no 655 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: one was in charge. I mean, I mean and and 656 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: I mean the the the singular issue here is that 657 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,319 Speaker 1: is that you know, you brought into this into this 658 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: White House people who had no no connection to to 659 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: each other and establishally Washington. Actually it was even more 660 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 1: they wanted to kill each other literally within within weeks. 661 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: So you had you had Kushner and and Ivanka, who 662 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: were New York Democrats. Um, you had bannoned this all 663 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: right nationalist populist thing. And you had Ron's previous who 664 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: was a traditional a traditional Republican, and they none of 665 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,720 Speaker 1: these things could ever come together. Um. They were all 666 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: all inherently opposed to each other. And it soon got 667 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 1: to the point where literally, I think if they could have, 668 00:39:55,360 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: if one could have assassinated the other a hundred years before, 669 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: in in in European courts, they would have assassinated each other. 670 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: Um and so and so you you had a white House, 671 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: certainly at least until until John Kelly comes in in August, 672 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:20,319 Speaker 1: where literally nothing could happen because one would block the 673 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: other for whatever they were trying. And they and they 674 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 1: did eventually they did not pass any major legislation until 675 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: the tax bill. So is it assumed then that McConnell 676 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 1: in the one House, and and and and Ryan and 677 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:36,799 Speaker 1: the other they seize an opportunity and they're the ones 678 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:41,319 Speaker 1: doing making the policy. Was you know the McConnell said, 679 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: and I quote him as as as saying, he'll he'll 680 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: sign anything we put in front of him, which I 681 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: think is fundamentally true. He doesn't really care what it is. 682 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:55,759 Speaker 1: He just wants a win. And he repeats this over John, 683 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: I need to win. I want to win. Why can't 684 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,320 Speaker 1: you bring me a win? Does didn't lose his position. 685 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 1: There's Bannon gone because because eventually he wants to go, 686 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 1: because he realized that Trump is an idiot as well. Totally, yeah, 687 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:09,719 Speaker 1: he does. He doesn't. He doesn't want to stay there 688 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: and watch the thing crash into the complete and he thought, 689 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: you know, and it's and he thought he could change things. 690 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 1: I think he always knew Trump was an idiot, but 691 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 1: he thought he was his idiot um. But then it 692 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,760 Speaker 1: became clear that Trump was also Jared and Avanca's idiot 693 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: and and many other people's idiots, so that nothing could 694 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,840 Speaker 1: really happen here and then and and and there's an idiot, 695 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 1: and then there's really an idiot, and so and I 696 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 1: think that's what Bannon, you know, and I sort of 697 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,400 Speaker 1: saw this, this transformation of of Okay, we can we 698 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: can work with this guy to this guy is really 699 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,799 Speaker 1: the ben and am I am? I writing assuming that 700 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 1: Bannon felt he really needed to be in charge. He 701 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: needed Trump to to sit down with him and let 702 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,320 Speaker 1: him guide him and focus him and do with And 703 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: Trump was gonna say the answer this is a line 704 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,399 Speaker 1: somebody applied to a friend of mine once said what's 705 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 1: Bob gonna do? And the answer was, who's the last 706 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 1: person to speak to him? You know, like everybody that 707 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:07,400 Speaker 1: walked in the room was like, sure, you got to 708 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 1: wrap it up whatever you want. And then apparently Trump 709 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,359 Speaker 1: has the same disease. Correct, whoever walks in the room, 710 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 1: he just says yes to whatever they want. Yeah, and 711 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: and who and the last person he he? I mean, 712 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 1: Trump is not a bright guy. That shouldn't be released 713 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 1: the tax returns. It should be released the transcripts. Um. 714 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 1: It's one of the things that that drives Trump crazy, 715 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 1: the idea that somebody might see his college transcripts. Oh, 716 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:41,240 Speaker 1: where is that Julian Assange when you need him? Someone 717 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 1: called the Bolivian embassy? Or wheb the hell he is? Uh? 718 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: The um? Everybody always said that that the one person 719 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 1: who had his ear was his daughter. What's happened in 720 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 1: that relationship to your knowledge? And during this year in 721 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: the White House, Well, I mean, I think it's I 722 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,200 Speaker 1: think she still does have his his ear, and I'd 723 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 1: say she's among the key powers in the White House. 724 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,719 Speaker 1: It's it's Ivonka Trump and I think they are very 725 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 1: much alike. They are very both transactional, you know. I 726 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 1: mean somebody, somebody, um, I know describes them both as 727 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:28,959 Speaker 1: without scruples, um um. And and I think that now, 728 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,080 Speaker 1: I mean, her position now is a difficult one because 729 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 1: because I mean, I don't think she's going to be indicted, 730 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: but I would place money that Jared is going to 731 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 1: be indicted. Um. Jared is gonna be indebted because Trump 732 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:49,399 Speaker 1: is stupid, not that um no, But but but the 733 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,360 Speaker 1: the what do you think? Well, because I want to 734 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,040 Speaker 1: get to that as you step back, I mean, the 735 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 1: book comes out, and I don't want to assume anything. 736 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: The book comes out, and one might automatically think that 737 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 1: many of the people who you were talking to and 738 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,400 Speaker 1: had channels to dry up and they don't want to 739 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 1: talk to you. And something tells me that some of 740 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 1: them might go the opposite way. I want to talk 741 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,760 Speaker 1: to me even more because the ship is slowly sinking 742 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,719 Speaker 1: now because the presumption is that if he that he's 743 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,319 Speaker 1: priming everybody now Rosenstein and everything that he's talking about 744 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,720 Speaker 1: to fire Mueller. He may actually be insane enough. Remember 745 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,960 Speaker 1: with Trump, things you swore were impossible in March are 746 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,120 Speaker 1: quote Titian realities by November. I mean, there's things that 747 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,400 Speaker 1: are insane to contemplate. Six months later. It's just the 748 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,800 Speaker 1: daily routine there. And and it's super hard to game 749 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,840 Speaker 1: this out because even if you invent a logic, a 750 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:45,879 Speaker 1: Trump logic, he's not only capable but likely of of 751 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: defying his own logic here, right, So I couldn't tell 752 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,399 Speaker 1: you would. I mean, it makes no sense, literally no 753 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: sense to people you talked to. Do you still speaking 754 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,239 Speaker 1: to some people? Yeah? And do they tell you that 755 00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,160 Speaker 1: he's gonna fire Muller? Um the contem we know they 756 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:04,520 Speaker 1: contemplated though, well, even that, you know, you know the content. 757 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,879 Speaker 1: That's an interesting story because the New York Times went 758 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:11,239 Speaker 1: with that story. He ordered the firing of of of 759 00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,120 Speaker 1: of Mueller. He told McGann the lawyer of fire and 760 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,720 Speaker 1: this became a major story and a kind of another 761 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:23,760 Speaker 1: evidence of his you know, his intent to obstruct justice, etcetera, etcetera. 762 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:29,040 Speaker 1: The truth is, and while he did order Muller fired, 763 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,640 Speaker 1: that's correct in the story, he did order McGan to 764 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,680 Speaker 1: fire Muller. That is correct in the story. The truth 765 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,719 Speaker 1: is this happens every day, so so it's it's a 766 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:43,520 Speaker 1: kind of thing. I mean, it just comes out of 767 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 1: his mouth and everybody, everybody ignores him. So so you know, 768 00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:52,160 Speaker 1: so everybody, Um, you know, I saw there there, um uh, 769 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 1: I just wanted I wish I could just be in 770 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,200 Speaker 1: that room. He's there and he's like, I can't this 771 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,840 Speaker 1: guy screamed with a plastic spoon, give me a medal spoon, 772 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 1: proper spoon, fire mother, fire Miller. It's just like barking 773 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:10,680 Speaker 1: all these disparate, unconnected lines ice cream, Mueller, fire, um spoon. 774 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:17,560 Speaker 1: You know, I needed more batteries for this remote remote 775 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,359 Speaker 1: that he's on an island of kind of uh dr 776 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,799 Speaker 1: Moreau or I don't know what it was in think. 777 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,440 Speaker 1: I mean he's always been I mean this is actually 778 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,440 Speaker 1: always throughout his whole career. Fire him, fire him. And 779 00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:33,880 Speaker 1: he didn't have a whole show where that yeah you're fired. 780 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,040 Speaker 1: I never watched that. That was the thing. So so 781 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: for the time sale he's he said, he he said 782 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:44,400 Speaker 1: Mueller should be fired. It's kind of like yeah, but um, 783 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,239 Speaker 1: he says everybody should be fired, including Mueller, every day 784 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,239 Speaker 1: and almost every second of the day. I've got a 785 00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 1: couple more questions for you because we're gonna run out 786 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:54,399 Speaker 1: of time here. But but I want to say that 787 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:56,279 Speaker 1: I do sit there sometimes I go, I don't want 788 00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 1: to be this motherfucker again. I can't do this again. 789 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: And I can't do it. You know, you stick a Trump? 790 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:10,400 Speaker 1: Oh God, do you never want to hear you? You? 791 00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:12,880 Speaker 1: You don't want to hear about Trump again? Is there 792 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:14,880 Speaker 1: anything left for you to say about Trump? Would there 793 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,400 Speaker 1: be more stuff from you about Trump or the White 794 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,319 Speaker 1: House or this experience or you Well, I'm not going 795 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:25,239 Speaker 1: to get back into the White House. Well let's never 796 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,160 Speaker 1: say never here. Um, if you bring ice cream, you might. 797 00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,319 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, I I absolutely believe I will 798 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,160 Speaker 1: get the call from him and he'll he'll go blah 799 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,960 Speaker 1: blah blah blah and rampt and rave and then he'll say, 800 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,520 Speaker 1: come on by. So you're not ruling out that you 801 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,160 Speaker 1: might do another book? You know? Sometimes one is called 802 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:51,200 Speaker 1: one is called in an art. In an article I 803 00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,440 Speaker 1: was reading for to prepare for this, I there was 804 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,840 Speaker 1: a quote that the writer gives from Stephen Levitzky and 805 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:03,080 Speaker 1: Daniel said blah, and he writes one parties view one 806 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:08,640 Speaker 1: another as mortal enemies. The stakes of political competition heightened dramatically. 807 00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,799 Speaker 1: Losing ceases to be a routine and accepted part of 808 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 1: the political process, and instead becomes a full blown catastrophe. 809 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,960 Speaker 1: When the perceived cost of losing is sufficiently high, politicians 810 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 1: will be tempted to abandon forbearance. Acts of constitutional hardball 811 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:36,040 Speaker 1: may then, in turn further undermine mutual toleration, reinforcing beliefs 812 00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: that our arrivals pose a dangerous threat. And of course 813 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 1: I think what I'm piggy baging off of here is 814 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,400 Speaker 1: this notion of the members of conquerorce not not applauding 815 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,560 Speaker 1: the state of the Union. Are treason us there? Treason us? 816 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,120 Speaker 1: Do you ever go through this whole thing? And he 817 00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:56,680 Speaker 1: gets sad, we're depressed? Where you really are worried for 818 00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:03,400 Speaker 1: the country? Are you worried for the country? When you 819 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,960 Speaker 1: do this, you kind of become part of it? What 820 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:12,919 Speaker 1: I and so I didn't feel myself looking this from 821 00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,360 Speaker 1: the big lens. It was it was very much up close, 822 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,719 Speaker 1: very much about the people who were most directly involved 823 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,719 Speaker 1: in this um so I'm not thinking about the country. 824 00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:27,040 Speaker 1: I think what I felt most of all is that 825 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:33,520 Speaker 1: everybody there was tainted by this and felt tainted by this, 826 00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:37,640 Speaker 1: and believe that they would not come out ahead, that 827 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,000 Speaker 1: this was a net loss all of the people around Trump. 828 00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,200 Speaker 1: That's what that's the conclusion that they came to. Would 829 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,720 Speaker 1: expect people to feel. People come out of the White 830 00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,320 Speaker 1: House and they make lots of money, and they're famous, 831 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,520 Speaker 1: and they have lots of influence and may be proud 832 00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:58,919 Speaker 1: of their work. Exactly and literally all of these people 833 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,600 Speaker 1: who went in thinking this would happen to them and 834 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:07,600 Speaker 1: came out as the months rolled on, thinking this, this 835 00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,600 Speaker 1: is all broke. Um, this is not gonna work. This 836 00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,279 Speaker 1: is not going to end well for anybody. The Democratic 837 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,480 Speaker 1: Party needs opposition. I don't want the Democrats to call 838 00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,160 Speaker 1: all the shots either. I don't want the Democrats to 839 00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,480 Speaker 1: be unopposed either, because that's that's not good for the country. 840 00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,000 Speaker 1: We need whether it's an independent party or we stick 841 00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,360 Speaker 1: with the two party system that I don't see that changing. 842 00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:29,319 Speaker 1: We need we need a healthy Republican Party. We need 843 00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,239 Speaker 1: a right thinking Republican party. I hope that the Republican 844 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:34,759 Speaker 1: Party once this guy is gone, and I hope that 845 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,399 Speaker 1: is soon they make some effort to heal themselves, because 846 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:39,359 Speaker 1: it's really really not good for the country to see 847 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,640 Speaker 1: the Republican Party drive off the cliff the way they've 848 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,680 Speaker 1: done with this guy, you know, handcuffed to the steering room. UM. 849 00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:50,160 Speaker 1: I want to say UM as we finish, Uh, this 850 00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,120 Speaker 1: is a podcast, my radio show. I want to thank 851 00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,040 Speaker 1: my producer's Emily Bouten, Kathy Russo and Adam tie Schultz. 852 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,279 Speaker 1: Michael Well, if everybody it might the WHOA, thank you 853 00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:09,320 Speaker 1: so much. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's 854 00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:22,120 Speaker 1: the thing. M