1
00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,440
Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Lefts That's podcast.

2
00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:17,560
Speaker 1: My guest today is the one and only Don was Don,

3
00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,279
Speaker 1: what did your parents say when you dropped out of college?

4
00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:26,280
Speaker 2: You know something? They were remarkably cool. They were. They

5
00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:31,280
Speaker 2: were incredibly supportive, both of them. And I didn't just

6
00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,879
Speaker 2: drop out to uh, you know, to to go to

7
00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,239
Speaker 2: the beach. I knew what I wanted to do, and

8
00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:45,400
Speaker 2: they supported me both in spirit and uh uh from

9
00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,120
Speaker 2: their wallet. And it took a while to get on

10
00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,760
Speaker 2: my feet. And my dad was always there to loane

11
00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:53,880
Speaker 2: me some bread if I needed it. They were great.

12
00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,920
Speaker 1: Okay, how many kids in the family?

13
00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,840
Speaker 2: Is my sister and myself and your sister older, younger

14
00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:06,440
Speaker 2: younger sister. When she retired, she was a chief Statistician

15
00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:08,679
Speaker 2: of the United States of America.

16
00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,520
Speaker 1: And that sounds very impressive, but I have no idea

17
00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:12,080
Speaker 1: what that is.

18
00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,360
Speaker 2: It's extremely well, she ran the Census Bureau, Okay for

19
00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:17,520
Speaker 2: a number of years. Well how did she get there?

20
00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:25,040
Speaker 2: She understood management, She had a degree in management, and

21
00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,959
Speaker 2: I think she had like fifty thousand people reporting to

22
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:29,720
Speaker 2: her at the Census.

23
00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,480
Speaker 1: Well, I guess I'm more interested you and your sister

24
00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,520
Speaker 1: are both very successful. What was in the water, what

25
00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,320
Speaker 1: was going in your house that you're both successful?

26
00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:46,280
Speaker 2: Well, it probably goes back to my parents just understanding

27
00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:53,000
Speaker 2: that you can you can do just as well doing

28
00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:57,520
Speaker 2: something you love something you don't love to do, and

29
00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,560
Speaker 2: so they encourage us to, you know, follow our hearts

30
00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,640
Speaker 2: and back to sup And Yeah, I went to my

31
00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,160
Speaker 2: fifty second high school reunion bah way Way just because

32
00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,440
Speaker 2: to cousin Covid, I.

33
00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:15,640
Speaker 1: Got roped in to go to my college region. That

34
00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,359
Speaker 1: was the first reunion I ever went to. How did

35
00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,679
Speaker 1: you decide? How'd you been to previous reunion?

36
00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:26,680
Speaker 2: The Okay, what motivates you to go? There's nothing like

37
00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,840
Speaker 2: you know, touch and base with these people that you've

38
00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:38,079
Speaker 2: known for sixty years, seventy years, You can't. You only

39
00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,040
Speaker 2: get that opportunity once to build relationships that last that long.

40
00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, But in the old days when we grew up,

41
00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,320
Speaker 1: if you left your hometown moved to the West coast,

42
00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,200
Speaker 1: unless you made a big effort, you lost touch. Whereas

43
00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,760
Speaker 1: today today's kids will never lose touch with anybody.

44
00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:54,600
Speaker 2: It's all available.

45
00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,480
Speaker 1: So when you go back, if you maintain relationships with

46
00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,720
Speaker 1: these people or you just check it in on the reunion.

47
00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,160
Speaker 2: It depends, you know, that a lot of people. There's

48
00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:08,360
Speaker 2: three hundred people in my class, and some are still

49
00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,440
Speaker 2: my closest friends. I see, I got a place in

50
00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,000
Speaker 2: Detroit on Mairland.

51
00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,760
Speaker 1: Okay, so I interrupted. You just came back from your

52
00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:19,840
Speaker 1: fifty second What was that like?

53
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,800
Speaker 2: It was beautiful, man, you know, it's a wonderful experience,

54
00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,640
Speaker 2: and I love going to them. But one thing I

55
00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:33,520
Speaker 2: did notice was that, you know, everybody was seventy and

56
00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,600
Speaker 2: some of them looked ninety, and some of them are

57
00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,560
Speaker 2: pretty much the same as they were when they were

58
00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,000
Speaker 2: in their forties and fifties. And the difference seemed to

59
00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:49,880
Speaker 2: be that people who pursued a line of work that

60
00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,800
Speaker 2: they loved looked much better, you know, and that people

61
00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,080
Speaker 2: who found meaning in their work in and then it's

62
00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:02,400
Speaker 2: got nothing to do with fame, right or really or revenue.

63
00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,440
Speaker 2: It's got to do with you. You can pump gas

64
00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,800
Speaker 2: and think, man, I'm keeping America moving. There's a point

65
00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:14,040
Speaker 2: to this. People who found meaning and did something they

66
00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:19,039
Speaker 2: loved looked a lot healthier and happier. You know.

67
00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,200
Speaker 1: There's the famous story of Jani's Joblin going back to

68
00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:26,080
Speaker 1: Port Arthur to her reunion. It's sort of a victory lap.

69
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,839
Speaker 1: The whole thing didn't work out well and she was

70
00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,240
Speaker 1: derided in high school. Where was your role amongst the

71
00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,280
Speaker 1: three hundred and when you went to one of these

72
00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,120
Speaker 1: reunions after having success, how did people treat you?

73
00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,920
Speaker 2: People have been really nice. They're supportive. I think when

74
00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,080
Speaker 2: you come from a little village and you go out

75
00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,320
Speaker 2: in the world and you do well, you do well

76
00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:52,919
Speaker 2: on behalf of everybody else. I think they feel some

77
00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,960
Speaker 2: ownership of the success of people from our high school class.

78
00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,440
Speaker 1: So if there were three hundred in the class, were

79
00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,640
Speaker 1: you the art guy known as the musician? We're a

80
00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,680
Speaker 1: good student in class? Did you play sports? Were you unknown?

81
00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:09,520
Speaker 1: Where were you in the landscape?

82
00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,479
Speaker 2: David wasn't I We were hippie kids, you know, and

83
00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,080
Speaker 2: we well, I'll be honest with you, man, It's why

84
00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,360
Speaker 2: I relate to what you do so well, because we

85
00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:32,719
Speaker 2: were provocateurs. Oh yeah, and game recognized game.

86
00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,280
Speaker 1: That's something that's totally lost his day. You know, this

87
00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,040
Speaker 1: is about you. I can tell you things we did

88
00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,159
Speaker 1: in high school, pranks, et cetera, just try to get people.

89
00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,480
Speaker 1: It wasn't purely for fun. You wanted to make them think, yeah.

90
00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:53,760
Speaker 2: Exactly, you're trying to stimulate a real discussion, and it's

91
00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:59,120
Speaker 2: actually the provocateur. It's a Youngian art type, you know.

92
00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:04,400
Speaker 2: And the people like us, we were valued. Kings would

93
00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,919
Speaker 2: invite us to dinners and see us at a table

94
00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,800
Speaker 2: with people who didn't know each other to get conversation going.

95
00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,400
Speaker 2: Just say something that's provocative and you get a lively discussion.

96
00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,000
Speaker 2: And when you have that, people have a good time.

97
00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:19,680
Speaker 2: They walk away feeling refreshed.

98
00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,000
Speaker 1: Well, since we're having a conversation as opposed to just

99
00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:26,600
Speaker 1: making it about you. I find in today's group think

100
00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,920
Speaker 1: world a lot of times if you don't say and

101
00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,880
Speaker 1: follow the accepted norm or whatever, there's trouble.

102
00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:40,159
Speaker 2: What kind of trouble?

103
00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,400
Speaker 1: Okay, you know, I'm inter interacting with people. When I

104
00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,880
Speaker 1: write something, people responding, which is you know, there's a

105
00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,000
Speaker 1: direct communication, which is different. But let's say there's a

106
00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,680
Speaker 1: political issue, okay, and I go to somewhere. Everybody's got

107
00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,719
Speaker 1: an opinion. Most of the people are getting their opinion

108
00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:02,120
Speaker 1: from television. Who are our demo? And you say, well, no,

109
00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:03,600
Speaker 1: that's not true.

110
00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:05,920
Speaker 2: Blah blah blah.

111
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,240
Speaker 1: They say, you know who the fuck is this guy?

112
00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,280
Speaker 1: What the fuck does he know? So just to stay

113
00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,600
Speaker 1: on the same topic. One thing I've noticed in the

114
00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:18,320
Speaker 1: music business the very top person at all these enterprises,

115
00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,960
Speaker 1: the labels ag live nation, they can hear something contrary.

116
00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:27,960
Speaker 1: They're open, whereas the people below have drunk the kool aid.

117
00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,080
Speaker 1: And it's very weird for me in the environment because

118
00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,960
Speaker 1: I like to be stimulated, which is the flip side

119
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:41,120
Speaker 1: of being a profocateur. And we grew up when there

120
00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,200
Speaker 1: was a huge middle class. No one ever wanted their

121
00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,720
Speaker 1: kid to be a musician, but there were always the

122
00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,760
Speaker 1: kids in school were artists, musicians. Who knows what would

123
00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,480
Speaker 1: happen to them in life? Where today money trumps everything

124
00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:59,720
Speaker 1: and that is the answer to everything. And it makes

125
00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,600
Speaker 1: me be alone a lot of time, because when I

126
00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,640
Speaker 1: interact with people, it's like, no, you know, that person

127
00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:12,440
Speaker 1: makes money, they're good, just be with the program.

128
00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:18,160
Speaker 3: Well, I'll look at it from a slightly different skew.

129
00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,920
Speaker 3: I think every one of us has got Trump and them,

130
00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,240
Speaker 3: and every one of us has got mother Teresa, you know,

131
00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:31,800
Speaker 3: And that's the that's the great human conflict, is altruism

132
00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:32,640
Speaker 3: versus greed.

133
00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:39,280
Speaker 2: It's probably going to be the undoing species. But that

134
00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:48,080
Speaker 2: conflict is it's just part of life. So when people

135
00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:53,000
Speaker 2: are reacting emotionally to things that they see, whether whether

136
00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,800
Speaker 2: it's AOC or Trump, you know, it's because they see

137
00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:02,640
Speaker 2: part of themselves in that, and it's reprehensible. They don't

138
00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,360
Speaker 2: want that to be whichever side you're on the argument,

139
00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,200
Speaker 2: they don't want that to be part of it. I

140
00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,040
Speaker 2: think we all it's in our DNA man, you know,

141
00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:21,000
Speaker 2: like altruism and community action. DNA knows that that's better

142
00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,959
Speaker 2: for survival. And you can find if you should go

143
00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:30,040
Speaker 2: through all there like seventeen eighteen species that have been

144
00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:37,400
Speaker 2: identified as being altruistic and they survive. They do well.

145
00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,840
Speaker 2: But a certain amount of self interest is necessary for

146
00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:49,559
Speaker 2: survival too. It's a constant battle. I think It's what

147
00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,960
Speaker 2: I think that's what's really making people crazy, is that

148
00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,000
Speaker 2: the conflict you see in the society is really an

149
00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,960
Speaker 2: inner conflict all of us. That's why that's why these

150
00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,640
Speaker 2: times which are really polarized, driving us nuts.

151
00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,120
Speaker 1: Okay, let's compare them to fifty five years ago. So

152
00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:15,760
Speaker 1: the late sixties, huge anti Vietnam movement. I went to

153
00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,520
Speaker 1: unlike University of Michigan, I went to a small college.

154
00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,600
Speaker 1: You could literally pick out the Republicans on campus.

155
00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:24,040
Speaker 2: Same thing.

156
00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,640
Speaker 1: The music was identified with left wing causes, etc.

157
00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:29,640
Speaker 2: So how do you.

158
00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,960
Speaker 1: Compare what was going on then to what's going on now?

159
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:40,720
Speaker 2: But i's see happening right now. Yesterday they basically passed

160
00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,160
Speaker 2: a tax package that gave breaks to the very wealthy

161
00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:48,520
Speaker 2: at the expense of the medical care of the average people.

162
00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:59,880
Speaker 2: I see. I see altruism and empathy being cast in

163
00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:06,080
Speaker 2: a negative light, and that that's that's the big difference.

164
00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,760
Speaker 2: Altruism wasn't held in the negative. It was a virtue.

165
00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,760
Speaker 2: And now I still think it is a virtue, and

166
00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:16,840
Speaker 2: a lot of people think it's still We've yet to

167
00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,679
Speaker 2: see what the reaction to everything that's going on in

168
00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,679
Speaker 2: the last few months is going to be. But I

169
00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,720
Speaker 2: think I think we all have it in us to

170
00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:28,559
Speaker 2: be altruistic.

171
00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,600
Speaker 1: Now, you have children, I don't have children, so we're

172
00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:39,559
Speaker 1: both in our seventies. Do you detach and say there's

173
00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,640
Speaker 1: just too much I'm gonna do what I'm doing or

174
00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,120
Speaker 1: do you get involved?

175
00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:53,360
Speaker 2: Well that's the million dollar question man there, And also

176
00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,800
Speaker 2: how you what you consider to be involved. I believe

177
00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:02,760
Speaker 2: making music that helps helps you deal with this conflict

178
00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:11,400
Speaker 2: is vital and I see that as activism, And honestly,

179
00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:15,480
Speaker 2: that was the thing that made me want to get

180
00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,360
Speaker 2: into music. Seriously, it was to it was to make

181
00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:24,760
Speaker 2: music that would help people deal with the chaos and

182
00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:29,520
Speaker 2: confusion and uncertainty of being a human being. It's rough,

183
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,240
Speaker 2: It's really rough. Man. We don't know. We don't know

184
00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:34,319
Speaker 2: if we're going to die in the next ten seconds,

185
00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,200
Speaker 2: if our loved ones are going to drop in the

186
00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,800
Speaker 2: next ten seconds. Everybody gets fired, everybody gets divorced. What

187
00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:42,720
Speaker 2: do you hang your hat on? Man? You know, it's

188
00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:48,720
Speaker 2: it's it's tough, and music can really help you deal

189
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:55,800
Speaker 2: with that and bring great comfort and open and openness to,

190
00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:00,000
Speaker 2: you know, to the situation. So I see making music

191
00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:07,679
Speaker 2: being a form of activism and it transcends individual issues,

192
00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:13,360
Speaker 2: you know that that people argue about. You know, it's it,

193
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,400
Speaker 2: It goes beyond that. There is a there's a human politic.

194
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:21,880
Speaker 2: That's that's more ah, more soulful.

195
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,760
Speaker 1: Okay, So, when done right, what does it look like?

196
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,240
Speaker 2: Well, when done right, it looks a little bit like

197
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,240
Speaker 2: the Rolling Stones. If you want to know my feeling

198
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:51,400
Speaker 2: about it, I spent thirty years working with them, and

199
00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:58,240
Speaker 2: in that band you have really different different mindsets, you know,

200
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:03,760
Speaker 2: sometimes one hundred eighty degree opposite mindset, which is where

201
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,160
Speaker 2: the beauty in that band comes from. Because when they

202
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:13,839
Speaker 2: find a place in the middle where all sides are represented,

203
00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,160
Speaker 2: the whole becomes greater than the sum of the parts.

204
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,840
Speaker 2: And that's a just by going out and being that,

205
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:27,000
Speaker 2: having having their own personal conflicts public, and having the

206
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,080
Speaker 2: having people come to a stadium, one hundred thousand of

207
00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:35,080
Speaker 2: them at night. Looking at these guys not only coexisting

208
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:40,080
Speaker 2: on stage, despite you know, any differences they may have artistically,

209
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:48,000
Speaker 2: but actually being great together. That's inspirational. But there's one point. Well,

210
00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,400
Speaker 2: We're working on an album called A Bigger Bang around

211
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,760
Speaker 2: two thousand and four, and I was reading Phil Jackson's

212
00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:04,120
Speaker 2: book Sacred Hoops, and I caught the parallels between a

213
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,400
Speaker 2: rock and roll band and a five man basketball team.

214
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:13,400
Speaker 2: And this was, you know, maybe a couple of years

215
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,840
Speaker 2: after seeing Kobe score eighty points and the Lakers lose

216
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:23,200
Speaker 2: the game, I started quoting from the book about passing

217
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,320
Speaker 2: and teamwork and being aware of where the other people

218
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,280
Speaker 2: are on the court at all times. I started reading

219
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,400
Speaker 2: passages during dinner to Mick and Keith, who like they

220
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:39,720
Speaker 2: fucking hated it, but they hated it because they knew it.

221
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,480
Speaker 2: They're aware of it already. They know that when they

222
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,640
Speaker 2: passed the ball musically to each other and when they

223
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,120
Speaker 2: work together as a unit, did the greatest band in

224
00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,880
Speaker 2: the history of the world, and that it means something

225
00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,200
Speaker 2: to everybody who listens to the music and sees them

226
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,360
Speaker 2: play together. They understand that, and they understand that they

227
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:09,320
Speaker 2: got a responsibility that comes with that, and to me,

228
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:18,040
Speaker 2: that's activism.

229
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,320
Speaker 1: Let's just go back one step before we go back

230
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,680
Speaker 1: to the stones. You talked about, Hey, a society, we

231
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,840
Speaker 1: don't know if we're going to die in ten seconds whatever.

232
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:27,960
Speaker 1: You don't know if you're going to get divorced. How

233
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,160
Speaker 1: many times you been married?

234
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:30,360
Speaker 2: They're married twice.

235
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,000
Speaker 1: How old were you when you were married the first time.

236
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,640
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if i'd actually marriaged, but we moved

237
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:41,040
Speaker 2: in together when I was nineteen, lasted eleven years, probably

238
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:45,960
Speaker 2: should have lasted, you know, eleven minutes, but a lot

239
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,600
Speaker 2: of good things came from that. And my second wife

240
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,400
Speaker 2: been with her now forty some years.

241
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,200
Speaker 1: And your kids are with your second wife.

242
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,680
Speaker 2: My oldest kid is with my first wife? Is with

243
00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:01,480
Speaker 2: the younger the first wife, Yeah, the the oldest one, Tony.

244
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:06,560
Speaker 1: Okay, I know about the second wife. I don't know

245
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,919
Speaker 1: about the first wife. You moved in together when you

246
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:11,880
Speaker 1: were nineteen. How did you know her?

247
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:19,960
Speaker 2: She's my neighbor. Yeah, I was going to University of Michigan.

248
00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:21,159
Speaker 2: She lived downstairs from me.

249
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,080
Speaker 1: You know, at a state university. Of all these socioeconomic classes,

250
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,280
Speaker 1: what was her background relative to yours?

251
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:39,480
Speaker 2: There wasn't a whole lot in common except where we're

252
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:44,679
Speaker 2: horny kids. Oh okay, so, which is a pretty good

253
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:45,399
Speaker 2: common ground.

254
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,480
Speaker 1: We've all lived in it whatever, at least in our generation. Okay,

255
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,200
Speaker 1: so you drop out to play music. Does she stay

256
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:55,879
Speaker 1: in school or does she go with you? What does

257
00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,040
Speaker 1: she do? She?

258
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:02,720
Speaker 2: Uh, she was a month she's older than me. She

259
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,760
Speaker 2: was like a month from graduating. Oh really yeah, but

260
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,399
Speaker 2: then she's in nursing school. Didn't want to be a nurse,

261
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:14,239
Speaker 2: so so we moved to Detroit from an arbor. But

262
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,320
Speaker 2: she did graduate. No, I she strapped out.

263
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:25,639
Speaker 1: Okay, where's she todaym Skeig in Michigan. Okay, if we

264
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,840
Speaker 1: go to the end the eleven years, how did you

265
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:30,000
Speaker 1: finally blow the whistle.

266
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:45,000
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the details are kind of personal and

267
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:47,560
Speaker 2: I wouldn't go into them other than to just say,

268
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,399
Speaker 2: eventually you have enough, then there's enough. And when you

269
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:57,520
Speaker 2: have kids in the picture, you you gotta do what's

270
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,679
Speaker 2: maybe best for them, best for them meetings split up

271
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:07,440
Speaker 2: in this case. Yes, okay, So going back to the Stones,

272
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,240
Speaker 2: how'd you get to work with Stones in the first place. Well,

273
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,880
Speaker 2: I'm not exactly sure. You know, I started. I went

274
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:21,919
Speaker 2: from being a bum to having hits and we wait.

275
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:27,600
Speaker 1: You're a bomb. There was not was walk the Dinosaur.

276
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,280
Speaker 1: You have success, you expand it. Actually, I want to

277
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,760
Speaker 1: get into that a little bit. You have the big

278
00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:37,080
Speaker 1: breakthrough with Bonnie Raid was the Stones thing. As a

279
00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,880
Speaker 1: result of your success, they were looking around.

280
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:47,280
Speaker 2: I think actually the record company was looking around. My

281
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:52,560
Speaker 2: first meeting with them was I'll tell you a story, man.

282
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,040
Speaker 2: I went to meet them at essay hour because they

283
00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,679
Speaker 2: were auditioning bass players to replace Bill Want So I

284
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:02,359
Speaker 2: got to sit there and watch a set of The

285
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,520
Speaker 2: Rolling Stones with a different bass player, like from two

286
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,199
Speaker 2: feet away. And it was mind blown because, as a

287
00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:13,200
Speaker 2: lifelong fan Sam for the first time in nineteen sixty four,

288
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,959
Speaker 2: went to every show about every album. Now I'm in

289
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,200
Speaker 2: a room watching him play on my mind. Then Mick

290
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 2: and Keith come and sit down on the sofa next

291
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,720
Speaker 2: to me, at their face and me. They're on either

292
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,879
Speaker 2: side of me, and they both start talking at the

293
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,880
Speaker 2: same time, and Keith was, from what I could get,

294
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,119
Speaker 2: very hard to follow. I was going back and forth,

295
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,240
Speaker 2: like you know, like watching a tennis stern. Keith was

296
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,960
Speaker 2: telling me all the reasons that they didn't need a producer,

297
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,560
Speaker 2: and Mick was suggesting reasons why they did need a producer.

298
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,600
Speaker 2: But they weren't yielding to the other guy. For about

299
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,439
Speaker 2: two minutes, which is an excruciatingly long time to be

300
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 2: sitting there. In the middle of that, they both kept talking,

301
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 2: trying to talk over the other guy, and then they paused,

302
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,400
Speaker 2: and then Keith said, you sure you won't be the

303
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 2: meat sandwich. I walked out of there, thinking, well, I

304
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,439
Speaker 2: got a good story from my grandchildren, but I'm never

305
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 2: going to hear from them again. And and then I've

306
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 2: been trying to think of what actually happened, you know.

307
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 2: Then then Keith called me up about a week later

308
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 2: and he said, maybe I was a little rough on

309
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,199
Speaker 2: the idea of a producer. He said, I got an

310
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,919
Speaker 2: issue here. He said, I'd like to use Don Smith

311
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:41,119
Speaker 2: as the engineer. And I'd been working with Don Smith.

312
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 1: But Don did the new Barbarians records.

313
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 2: That the expensive Winos records, the Solo records, which I

314
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 2: thought was a really good sonic template for a rolling

315
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 2: Stone celt And I thought Don was just a wonderful engineer. Man.

316
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 2: He's gone now, but he had a real gift, so

317
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 2: he said, but he said, doesn't want me to use

318
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,680
Speaker 2: them because he doesn't he wants an impartial guy. And

319
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 2: I said, wow, he's he's my guy too, you know.

320
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 2: I said, I'll call Mick, and I said, and Mix said,

321
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,199
Speaker 2: all right, if you're saying he's your guy and that

322
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,359
Speaker 2: he'll be impartial, I'll go with it. So I call him.

323
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,920
Speaker 2: Keith Backer said, all right, we got Don Smith and

324
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 2: he said, all right, your name's not was it's his

325
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,640
Speaker 2: or some Well.

326
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,640
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the original meeting. During the audition,

327
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 1: they have their conflicting stories. You had to sell yourself

328
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 1: a little bit.

329
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 2: What did you say? I don't remember, well, do you

330
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 2: honestly do you remember selling yourself? My memory of it

331
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 2: is seeing them play and like not being able to

332
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 2: believes in a room with them and then having the

333
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 2: two of them talking at me. Okay, same time.

334
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 1: Most people don't realize that what most people say is

335
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,640
Speaker 1: complete horseshit. Things don't happen by accident.

336
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 2: In that you have to have.

337
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 1: The right personality. You have to put yourself in the

338
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: right situations, and frequently you have to ask, Okay, what

339
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 1: do I know you're in?

340
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 2: Was not? Was?

341
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: I go to the VMA sometimes in the nineties you're

342
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 1: running the house band. I remember you played that song

343
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:34,919
Speaker 1: from Extreme Wholehearted, which crack me up. Okay, that doesn't

344
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 1: happen by accident. Okay, you don't sit at home, especially

345
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,159
Speaker 1: someone like where you were at the time and the

346
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 1: phone rings. You have to work it a little bit.

347
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 2: So what's your style of working? Well, I'll probably stems

348
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 2: from my dad, you know, who is a guidance counselor

349
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 2: counselor and very cool headed guy, didn't get worked up,

350
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 2: and he listened to people, and he was empathetic and

351
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 2: a diplomat. I guess that's my style. I don't really,

352
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 2: it's really hard for me to identify that kind of thing.

353
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 2: I can tell you this to get to the point

354
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 2: where I was in a meeting with the Rolling Stones.

355
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 2: That took some doing for a number of years, and

356
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 2: it wasn't easy getting over. There was a point in

357
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 2: the somewhere around in nineteen seventy nine, bad inflation, remember

358
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 2: whipping plation. Now it was tough. I was playing five

359
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 2: nights a week in a bar and Detroit. I loved

360
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,159
Speaker 2: the gig, but I was taking home one hundred and

361
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 2: twenty five bucks a week and I had a wife

362
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 2: and a kid. Couldn't get by on that. My goal

363
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 2: in life had been to be able to play music

364
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 2: and never have a job that was just a job

365
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 2: that I didn't care about. But it became pretty clear

366
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 2: that I was going to have to do something. I

367
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 2: was falling deeper in debt every month. I was making

368
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 2: up fake resumes and still couldn't get a call back

369
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 2: for anything. And I was unqualified for anything except really

370
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,479
Speaker 2: playing bass and bars, and I knew a little bit

371
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 2: about making records. So I had to get a job,

372
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 2: and finally I found one where there was a I

373
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 2: can't think what the program is called now, but it

374
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 2: was like a domestic peace corps where the government Vista

375
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 2: the Vista Vistorship and the government would pay half your

376
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 2: salary for six months if an employer would teach you

377
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 2: a trade. So I was able to get a job

378
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 2: preparing copy machines. But after about two days in the

379
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 2: gig and by the way man, I thought my life

380
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 2: was over. I was so depressed. I used to drive

381
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 2: to work mad Maverick without a passenger door. A cassette

382
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: like a realistic is a radiosop that I had to

383
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 2: duct tape to the seat because I couldn't afford to

384
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 2: put one in the dashboard right. I didn't want to

385
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 2: slide on and I made a cassette that I'm front

386
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 2: and back, just had the song satisfaction. I can't get

387
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 2: no sense, and I drove to work Mad. I can't

388
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 2: get no thing. My life was over. Two days in

389
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 2: it got worse. The boss said, you know, when you're

390
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 2: out there repairing copy machines, we want you to also

391
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 2: sell some paper and toner to the clients. And we

392
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 2: don't think you know anything about selling, so we've enrolled

393
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 2: you in the Dale Carnegie sales course. And I was like,

394
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 2: oh God, the thing I had to go to at night.

395
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 2: I walked in. You've read Death of a Salesman. It's

396
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 2: me and five Willie Lowman's right, like older guys trying

397
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 2: to onto their gigs and refresh their sales technique. Oh man,

398
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 2: I thought i'd hit rock bottom. The first assignment you

399
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 2: had to write down where in your wildest dreams you

400
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 2: wanted to be in one year, five years, and ten years.

401
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 2: Then you had to get up and read it to

402
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 2: the read your list to the room. And man, that's

403
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 2: a hard thing to do, to admit what your wildest

404
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 2: dreams are and then tell a bunch of strangers. You know.

405
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 1: One of the things you know Bob doing obfuscates all

406
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: the time, but he also does a little bit of

407
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: hypher his records. One time on sixty minutes sometime the

408
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 1: last twenty five years ago, he goes, I won't tell

409
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 1: my hopes in dreams because people just laugh at me

410
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,239
Speaker 1: and give me a hard time. You got to keep

411
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: them interior.

412
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 2: Yeah that's interesting. Well that's that's I think that's a

413
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,919
Speaker 2: very human response. It was really hard for me to

414
00:27:53,960 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: do this. But if you've bottomed out right far ago, right,

415
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: So I did it. I really thought about it, and

416
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 2: I wrote this down a little piece of paper and

417
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 2: I got up. I was the first guy, and in

418
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,199
Speaker 2: one year I said I want to be out of

419
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 2: this fucking job. And I got the big laugh of

420
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 2: the night for that, because everyone was there to try

421
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 2: to keep their job. In five years, i'd like to

422
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 2: produce a record that comes out, and ten years, i'd

423
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:28,199
Speaker 2: like to produce an artist who some big artist. And

424
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 2: after I said it to everybody, I looked at the

425
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: piece of paper, How hard can this be? Man, here's

426
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,479
Speaker 2: an orderly list. Man. So within a month I had

427
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 2: a record deal for it was and I was We

428
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 2: got our first deal, and I used by the way,

429
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 2: I used the techniques that I learned in the Dale

430
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: Carnegie course to get the deal, you know. And within

431
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 2: a year and a half Carly I was producing Harley

432
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 2: Simon and that was my poy.

433
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: We went a little bit slower. What were the lessons

434
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: they taught you?

435
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 2: Oh, it's just like, uh, you know, don't just if

436
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 2: you're if you're doing a sales pitch, you got to

437
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 2: keep people saying yes. So if you're if you're the

438
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 2: fuller brush man going door to door, if I could

439
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 2: show you away that you wouldn't have to work so hard,

440
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 2: scrub and your sink you'd want to know about it, right, Yeah, sure,

441
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 2: and you just keep saying yes and then you go

442
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: for the kill after about twenty yeses. So I'll say

443
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 2: I used that technique, David wasn't. I. We knew we

444
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 2: wanted to be on a label named Z called Z

445
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 2: Record Ze, which was doing They were doing really cool

446
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 2: dance music, subversive dance music at that at that point

447
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 2: in time that people were still doing these remixes that

448
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 2: had all the strings and it was a very studio

449
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 2: fifty four the worst things you can imagine when you

450
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 2: say the word disco, which does that doesn't bring up

451
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: bad feelings for me. I love dance music and I

452
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 2: love those records. Some of them were cheesy in formulated,

453
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,959
Speaker 2: so there was something in the in the zeitgeist at

454
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 2: the time. The remixes like franzoisk of Orkian, they were

455
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 2: adopting like dub techniques basically Lee Scratch Perry techniques and

456
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: applying it to dance music and not just doing an

457
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: instrumental verse and sticking and that in the middle and

458
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 2: bringing the bass drama. So we started messing with that

459
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 2: and we thought, how can we Trojan Horse a meaningful

460
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 2: message on top of a dance beat that was that

461
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: was kind of the goal and uh and it seemed

462
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 2: like Sea Records was doing that. It was headed by

463
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 2: a guy named Michael Zilka. Very bright guy, cool guy,

464
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 2: and I'm grateful for life to this cat.

465
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: Okay, way a little bit slower. While you're working in

466
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: the copy or repair of business, is there a band

467
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: or just you and David with a fantasy?

468
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 2: Me and David with a fantasy and a couple of songs.

469
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 2: And I knew a lot of musicians because I and

470
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 2: I'd been i'd been working in studios. I would go

471
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 2: to the studio. I'd play in the bar till two

472
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning. Then from two to like eight,

473
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: I'd go to the studio. And there's a there's a

474
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: great studio in Detroit called Sound Sweet Studios. And they

475
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 2: were just extremely kind to me and generous. They gave

476
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 2: me the key and if no one was in there

477
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 2: after midnight, I could go in and work till someone

478
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 2: else came in. So we started cutting two songs, and

479
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 2: you know, and I was playing all the time, So

480
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 2: I knew great studio musicians. And we had Marcus bell

481
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 2: Grave come in we had Mark S. Belgrave was a

482
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 2: great jazz trumpeter, kind of the dean of Detroit jazz musicians,

483
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 2: played with Charles Minger's toured for years with Ray Charles,

484
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 2: but chose to stay in Detroit and play and teach WAYN.

485
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 2: Kramer from the MC five, who I didn't know at

486
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 2: that time. He became one of my dearest friends. But

487
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: we just called him cold and asked him to come

488
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 2: in and play. He ended up going on tour with

489
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 2: us on our first version, and Sweet p Atkinson and

490
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 2: Harry Bowenes, who I just knew from hanging around the studio,

491
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 2: so I knew the players, and we started. We made

492
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 2: these records on a shoe string, and then I had

493
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 2: to sort of abandon it to take this job.

494
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: Well a little bit slower, a little bit so, so

495
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: you have X number of tracks and you personally go

496
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: to the record company get the deal. There's no manager,

497
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: no lawyer, no anybody.

498
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 2: We didn't have a manager or lawyer. But here's what

499
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 2: we did to David was it was the jazz critic

500
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 2: for the now defunct La Herald Examiner. So we concocted

501
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 2: the scheme where David called Michael Silka under the guys

502
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 2: of doing an interview, but I don't even think he

503
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 2: was rolling tape. He got forty five minutes into the

504
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 2: interview and then he said, you know, as I'm thinking

505
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 2: about it and talking to you, there's this band in

506
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 2: Detroit that you got to hear. He said, Okay, if

507
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 2: I have the guy call you after we do the interview, Michaels, Yeah,

508
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: of course, I'm cute a fed Ex cassette but wheel

509
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 2: me out and Hello Operator on our first two songs.

510
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 2: Sent it to Michael and he happened to play it

511
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: while August Darnell from Kid Krill and the coconutsu was

512
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 2: a big artist. He was in the office and August

513
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: just loved the record and reinforced the thing a Michael

514
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 2: that it was great and they signed us.

515
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: Okay, a little clean up work. If David is the

516
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 1: jazz critic for the Herald Examiners, he living in l A. Yeah,

517
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: he's living living okay. And how long did you actually

518
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,280
Speaker 1: work in the copy repair of business?

519
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,760
Speaker 2: Six weeks? Okay.

520
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: I can't imagine there was a ton of money in

521
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 1: this record deal, was there?

522
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 2: No? But I learned a lesson previously we'd cut a

523
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 2: twelve inch on Sweetpea, a dance record of him covering

524
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: Bob Seekers heavy music. Okay, it was good man, and

525
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 2: Sweetpea was like the voice I always wished I had,

526
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 2: you know, he was, he was my vocal hero. I

527
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 2: was just thrilled to meet him and know him. Such

528
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,720
Speaker 2: a character, such a you know, an intimidating character at first,

529
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 2: but huge heart of gold underneath. Tough guy. You know,

530
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 2: no one, no one ever wants to mess with sweepy.

531
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 2: But we got this record and we sent it off

532
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 2: to Oh it was an offshoot label that Epic Records had,

533
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 2: Lenny Pets Portrait Portrait Records. Yeah, Lenny Pezzi was the

534
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 2: head and he and he loved it. So then we

535
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 2: got an attorney, big guy in New York. Oh, simple,

536
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 2: simple deal man, you know. So twelve inches the deal

537
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 2: from nobody's man. Just we should have paid them to

538
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 2: put it at. But this guy negotiated for six months,

539
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 2: ran his bill up to where we couldn't afford it,

540
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 2: and then they closed Portrait Records. We took so long

541
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 2: to make the deal. Well, I'm never going to do

542
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 2: that again, right right, right, So there's no lawyer I called,

543
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 2: you know, I talked to Michael Silka. I said, just

544
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 2: take it, take the record, put it out. I guarantee

545
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: you if you put it out, you'll come back to

546
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 2: us and we'll do an album deal. I guarantee you

547
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 2: get I'm confident enough that you get a response. Just

548
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 2: take it, you own it. We want nothing. Put whatever

549
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 2: you want in the contract. So we did that and

550
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 2: he put it right out and turned into an album deal.

551
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 2: We actually had a plan. I got the list of

552
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 2: stores that reported to the Billboard Dance Charts his presound

553
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 2: scam right, So I knew the R and B DJs

554
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: in Detroit, and I knew the promo guys, independent guys,

555
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 2: and I knew to hire them and get us some airplay.

556
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 2: And then I knew the stores that reported, and so

557
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 2: if they ordered six records, I just went in and

558
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 2: bought up to six. And all anybody saw was reorders.

559
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 2: And that's what stood out. It's getting on the on

560
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:06,280
Speaker 2: radio somehow and people are reordering it. That probably wouldn't

561
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 2: have been enough, but as it happened in England, people

562
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 2: just dug it. It was. It was alternative dance music,

563
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 2: alternative club music, which was a cool thing at that moment.

564
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 2: In time and Z Records was highly respected. So based

565
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 2: really on the reaction we got in England, Chris Blackwell

566
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 2: was into it and Michael was distributing his records through Chris,

567
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 2: so he signed us to our first album deal.

568
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 1: Okay, you're nobody in Detroit, you get a little buzz,

569
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 1: you end up on the island. When does it start

570
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: to coalesce that you're on the landscape and you're outside

571
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 1: of Detroit and you get to know people.

572
00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 2: It's hard to say. It seems like it seems like

573
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 2: a there was a lot of struggle, is the way

574
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 2: I feel. But really it's just a couple of years

575
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 2: between between putting that first record out and working with Bonnie.

576
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 1: Okay, it's like friends of mine managed one direction. They

577
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,720
Speaker 1: have no people have no idea how hard they worked.

578
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 1: You know, they're working all day long. You're just seeing

579
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: the end results now. You know, there were the day,

580
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 1: the heyday, the pre internet days. Yeah, the label supported you,

581
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 1: But when you were struggling, how much were you on

582
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: the road. How much were you trying to make something

583
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: great in the studio? What were you doing when you

584
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 1: were struggling.

585
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 2: It's trying to figure out how to make great records.

586
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 2: I could hear what other people were doing. I'll listened

587
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: to everything. I had the advantage of someone just before.

588
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: You couldn't make records in your laptops, right, there were

589
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 2: no laptops, right, There was no pro tools and none

590
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 2: of that. So you had someone had to invest in

591
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 2: at least half a million dollars you know worth of stuff,

592
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 2: and more than that. Usually I had the advantage of

593
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 2: someone letting us use the studio. The hard part about

594
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 2: doing it and the provinces like that was that there

595
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 2: were a couple of great engineers in Detroit, and they

596
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 2: were very guarded with the knowledge. There wasn't this culture

597
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: that there was with the musicians, like with guys like

598
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 2: Marcus Belgrave who were there to pass the knowledge on.

599
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 2: No one wanted to lose the work. We just had

600
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 2: to figure out how to do it on our own,

601
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 2: which I think is what makes our first record probably

602
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 2: our best record, because we had no idea what the

603
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 2: fuck we were doing, and we had no money really,

604
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 2: so you know, you know, now, if I'm working on

605
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 2: a record and we need something to build the bridge

606
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 2: of the song up, yeah, called David Campbell. Have them

607
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 2: write some strings. Have people come in. But we didn't

608
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 2: have that kind of bread or know those kind of people.

609
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 2: So we had to go out in the room and figure,

610
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 2: all right, if we slowed the tape down a little

611
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 2: bit so that this anvil is when you bang on it,

612
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 2: it hits a note that rings that's in tune with

613
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 2: the song. We'd bso it down so we were in

614
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 2: tune with the anvil and then bam, hit it with

615
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 2: a hammer and that note would be the sound. That

616
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 2: was basically the orchestra and the bridge. Much cooler way

617
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 2: to make records, so, uh, you know, necessity is the

618
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 2: mother of invention. We made. We made some cool records

619
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 2: because we because we couldn't afford to do it the

620
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 2: standard way and we had no knowledge about how to

621
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:45,919
Speaker 2: do it the standard way.

622
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: Let's go back, where exactly do you grow up in Michigan?

623
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 2: I grew up in Oak Park, Michigan, which is just

624
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 2: across eight mile from the Detroit city limits.

625
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: Okay, Detroit was no own is its own scene very

626
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 1: early there was New York, LA, eventually San Francisco. You're

627
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: growing up, are you aware of Motown? Are you ware

628
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: there's a house you drive by? Do you feel some ownership,

629
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 1: or it could be in Timbuctoo.

630
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: It's the samely we felt about the Detroit Tigers winning

631
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 2: the World Series in nineteen sixty That's how we felt

632
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 2: about Motown. That was victory for all of us. And

633
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 2: there's a lot of local pride and even for yeah

634
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,800
Speaker 2: whatever in seventh eighth grade when those records started coming out,

635
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 2: but I still felt tremendous pride it was coming from

636
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:46,439
Speaker 2: our town. And also there is a Detroit sound. There's

637
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 2: a thing to the music that comes out of there.

638
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 2: It has to do with a couple of factors. I

639
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,479
Speaker 2: think one is that, you know, post World War Two,

640
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 2: people came from all over the world to work in

641
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 2: the factory, and they all brought their cultures with them.

642
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 2: So we grew up in the middle of this incredible

643
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 2: cultural John Balaya, you know, it's just beautiful. And eventually

644
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 2: the generation goes by and the lines start to blur

645
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 2: and there's a regional sound that starts to starts to form.

646
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 2: Another characteristic of Detroit music, which is probably best personified

647
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 2: by John Lee Hooker, is incredible, honest rawness. I think

648
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 2: that's because in a one industry town like that, everybody's

649
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 2: in the same boat. You. You know, everyone's fate was

650
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 2: tied to the success of the Big three automakers or

651
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 2: success or failure, and if they were failing, they'd lay

652
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 2: off workers, workers would move away. My parents are both

653
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 2: in teachers, so if kids moved out of the district,

654
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 2: they'd lay off teachers, they'd lay off barbers, waitresses, a

655
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 2: get laid up. So everybody in town was in the

656
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,760
Speaker 2: same boat, and there really wasn't much point in putting

657
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 2: on any errors because you weren't fooling everybody. I didn't

658
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 2: know one person who liked least a Mercedes to impress

659
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: their friends. They just call you on your bullshit immediately

660
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 2: with backfire. So you get a really honest population there,

661
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 2: and the music reflects that. It's raw and honest. John

662
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 2: Lee Hooker, Mitch Ryder, Stooges, Empty Five, George Clinton, White Stripes,

663
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 2: all the same thing. Really raw, edged, but very real

664
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 2: and very and deeply emotional. So I forgot why we

665
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 2: started talking about Believe. It's a great but I'm going

666
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 2: to ask more questions. Do feel him?

667
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 1: So when do you first play a musical instrument?

668
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I think I started playing piano when I

669
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 2: was eight seminary eight.

670
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 1: Okay, your seven or eight when you're eleven twelve when

671
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: the Beatles hit, was that the transitional moment in You're

672
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,879
Speaker 1: getting deeper or it was something before.

673
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:15,439
Speaker 2: I was into it, and then folk music was actually right,

674
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: Like there was a summer when Peter Palm and Mary

675
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:24,280
Speaker 2: was alternative rock and roll and so and hoot Nanny.

676
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 2: It was a big show.

677
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 1: Well that's what I told you that you have no

678
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 1: idea even had its own TV show.

679
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, there was.

680
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 1: Everybody had a nylon string guitar. You when everybody was

681
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:37,760
Speaker 1: singing the songs.

682
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 2: So I was in sixth grade and we had a

683
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 2: band called the Saturns and we did basically Peter Palm,

684
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 2: Mary's first album, and then Tom Dooley, some Kingston trio

685
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 2: and the first gig, actually my first gig sixth grade,

686
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 2: hoot Nanny. The headliner was a guy named moish Last

687
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 2: who talked guitar at the Jewish Center. The second on

688
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 2: the and somewhere I got I still have the mimeograph.

689
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 2: Flyer is Chuck Mitchell and wife. That's hysterical.

690
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: That's Joni Mitchell.

691
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 2: And then my band, our band.

692
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: Okay, you're playing the piano. Does a piano migrate to

693
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: the bass?

694
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: What is thing? No, what happened was my dad went

695
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 2: to I don't know, he was someplace, but there was

696
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 2: a rock and roll band and he came back with

697
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 2: a guitar that he bought for five bucks, which I

698
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 2: still have, the old Harmony acoustic guitar. So he tried

699
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 2: to he took some lessons and it didn't click for him,

700
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 2: so he gave me the guitar and gave me all

701
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 2: the chord charts and I started just learning on my own.

702
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 2: But there was a turning point in February in nineteen

703
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 2: sixty four. That's that's a life changing moment and up

704
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 2: for a lot of guys age born in nineteen fifty two.

705
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 2: I know an inordinate number of musicians born that year

706
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 2: because we were tuned into Ed Sullivan. We saw the Beatles,

707
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 2: we saw the girls screaming, we saw them having fun,

708
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 2: we saw them making great music. And at twelve years old,

709
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 2: you're just dumb enough to think I'm going to do that. Right.

710
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 2: If you're older, I'd like to do that. But maybe

711
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 2: I should get that teaching certification just to have something

712
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,760
Speaker 2: to fall back on. I think it must be the phrase,

713
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 2: and if you're eight, it didn't register. So seeing that,

714
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,879
Speaker 2: we went out the next day and the guys my man,

715
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 2: we all put pickups on our acoustic guitars and about amplifiers,

716
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 2: and we got a drummer and there's no turning back

717
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 2: from that.

718
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:52,320
Speaker 1: Okay, you talk about being on that bill with Mitchell

719
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 1: and wife. Was that an anomaly or were you guys

720
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 1: doing gigs?

721
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,240
Speaker 2: No, it's our It was our elementary school.

722
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 1: It's a funas so once you once the beatles and

723
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: you get motivated, and you know, we all live through that.

724
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 1: Everybody's playing, everybody's forming bands, although we're certain people were

725
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 1: more serious than others. At what point do you have

726
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: a band and they play a gig?

727
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,439
Speaker 2: That band played gigs. We used to work in fact,

728
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 2: where was that someplace? And I ran into like the

729
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 2: grandson or the grand nephew of a guy who used

730
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 2: to be a band. What used to happen was the

731
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 2: adult bands that would play weddings and bar mitzvahs. They'd

732
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 2: hire us to play in their breaks because we could

733
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 2: play the kids stuff, especially at thirteen year olds. Want

734
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 2: they didn't want to hear hovin ne Guila. So we

735
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 2: play Beatles songs. So we were twelve thirteen and we'd

736
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:54,879
Speaker 2: have forty bucks in our pocket every week.

737
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: You were rich, right, What were you playing guitar in

738
00:47:59,320 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: those bands?

739
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well the first band we didn't know about bass.

740
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 2: I didn't know what bass was, and then we so

741
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 2: we didn't have a bass player. One day we're looking

742
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 2: at some pictures the Beatles studying it and we see

743
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 2: McCartney's only got four strings. Fck that. I auditioned. I

744
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 2: think I was in sixth grade, seventh grade. I auditioned

745
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 2: for a band some guys who were older than us

746
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 2: actually went out called the Shy Guys. They actually had

747
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 2: a big hit, regional hit in Detroit, We Gotta Go.

748
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 2: It was the number one record in Detroit, and they

749
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 2: needed a bass player. So the leader of the group

750
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 2: came over, came up to my bedroom and he said,

751
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,280
Speaker 2: all right, let's play something. So I grabbed my regular

752
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 2: guitar and he said, let's do walk, don't run. So

753
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 2: I play play the chords, but I'm very careful to

754
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 2: only play on the lower four strings, thinking that's what

755
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:58,439
Speaker 2: bass guitar. He said, oh cool, He said, now play

756
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 2: the bass part, and I said, well, I was Yeah,

757
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 2: you see, I didn't play the be er these ron leftko.

758
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 2: Guess he was kind enough to explain what bass was. Now, No,

759
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:16,959
Speaker 2: it's an octave blow, and so then I learned about

760
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 2: it and they were There are four or five guitar

761
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 2: players in my high school class who are better than me,

762
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 2: and a couple of keyboard players who were better, and

763
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 2: there were no bass players.

764
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 1: Bingo, Okay, I don't understand the bass. I played guitar, guitar,

765
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: Still have a guitar or whatever. The bass seems to

766
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: be a calling. Okay, you know you have a guitar

767
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 1: to play the rhythm, you can play the lead. There

768
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 1: are people like McCarty plays very melodic notes, but historically

769
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: most of the rock players do not. So is it

770
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 1: something that you just it resonates go, oh, I know

771
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: where this is in the record, I know how to

772
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 1: do this? Or was it more of a chore?

773
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 2: Oh, it's not a chore, man, I was wonderful. The

774
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 2: beautiful thing about the bass is that if you wanted to,

775
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,439
Speaker 2: if you really wanted to play the bass, I could

776
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 2: sit here with you for ten minutes and show you

777
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 2: enough of the geometry of the neck to play any

778
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 2: four chord rock and roll song you ever heard in

779
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 2: your life. It's the easiest instrument to get by on,

780
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 2: but if you want to really get deep and dig

781
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 2: into it, it's beautiful. Look I'm seventy three and I'm

782
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 2: just feeling like I'm getting the hang of it. And

783
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 2: I had some lessons from Ron Carter in the last

784
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 2: couple of years, and he showed me some things that

785
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 2: blew my mind. Just Michelle and Daviocello, who's a artist

786
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 2: sheet we talked about some stuff that Ron had showed me,

787
00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 2: and she showed me another approach to it. And it's

788
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 2: the nuance. Something that seems tiny, the change of just

789
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:14,800
Speaker 2: the angle of a one millimeter with your fingers opens

790
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 2: up a whole universe. I know that that sounds hyperbolic,

791
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 2: but it's actually not. Well, here, I can actually tell

792
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:24,919
Speaker 2: you the story Ron Carter. I was playing with Bob

793
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 2: Weir and we played a radio city musical. Ron Carter,

794
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 2: who's my hero for life, the greatest bass player around ever. Right,

795
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 2: he came and sat in with us and he played

796
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,959
Speaker 2: my bass, which I always wondered, what would this sound

797
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 2: like if Ron Carter was playing this thing? So I

798
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 2: got to find he played through my rig. The only

799
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 2: difference was our fingers right, and Bobby records everything. So

800
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:52,760
Speaker 2: the next day I say, will get the tape, isolate

801
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 2: the tracks for ron Carter playing a song, and then

802
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:59,919
Speaker 2: me playing the next song. Called ron Carter up, I said,

803
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 2: all right, So, how come when I hear you play

804
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 2: in the space it's the note It's just round and

805
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 2: warm and perfectly symmetrical. And by comparison, my note sounds

806
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 2: like it's made out of Swiss cheese with like holes

807
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 2: in the note. And Ron Carter, who really doesn't suffer fools,

808
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 2: you know, he said, well, you know, I can tell

809
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 2: you what you're doing wrong if you want me to. Yeah,

810
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:28,720
Speaker 2: tell me. He said, you're not releasing the previous note

811
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 2: before you play the next note. And he gave me

812
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 2: some exercises to practice for releasing notes, and he was

813
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 2: one hundred percent right. Something I just I'd have stayed

814
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 2: in college I had learned it. That was probably a

815
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 2: dumb move, that dropping out.

816
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: Business you were studying music and going.

817
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 2: I snuck in. Yeah, I couldn't get into the music college,

818
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,240
Speaker 2: but but no one wanted to be in the school

819
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 2: in natural resources. Ecology was yet the word was yet

820
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:58,839
Speaker 2: to be coined. I think. So it's easy to get

821
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 2: in there. And once I was in then I could

822
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:02,760
Speaker 2: start taking music classes and transfer.

823
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to bass players. You know, even

824
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: at this laid date, people Rivera Jocko Pastorio, Are you

825
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 1: one of those people's.

826
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 2: He's not my favorite bass player, but I'm in awe

827
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 2: of what he does.

828
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: He's Oh, okay, so your favorite would be Ron Carter

829
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 1: my favorite? Yeah, anybody else in his league?

830
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 2: Sure? I mean there are people today who who are

831
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 2: blow my mind. You may not know their names, like

832
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 2: Larry Grenadier is just an incredible bassis. Willie Dixon was

833
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 2: a big hero of mine. I thought he I like

834
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 2: the guys who don't play a million notes right, but

835
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,840
Speaker 2: hold the thing down and keep it swinging and choose

836
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 2: interesting notes, but can groove like crazy and keep swinging

837
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 2: and propel this thing forward. So Willie Dixon, James Jamison is,

838
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 2: you know, for a myriad of reasons, just he's I

839
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 2: think he's the greatest genius pick for the instrument up.

840
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:11,879
Speaker 2: He'd what Robert Johnson did on the guitar, he did

841
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 2: on the bass. He it takes a whole band to

842
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 2: cover all the turf that Jamison covered. He was melodic,

843
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:23,319
Speaker 2: he was playing counterpoint. It's like a percussionist, and he

844
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,720
Speaker 2: was holding down the low end all at once. People

845
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 2: weren't really doing that. I like the ego free, supportive

846
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:39,799
Speaker 2: bass players who play minimal amount of notes, but they

847
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 2: all mean something. The choice of notes. You don't have

848
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,360
Speaker 2: to play if you're in C. You don't have to

849
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 2: play a C in the bass, play a G in

850
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 2: the bass. A whole other emotional palette. It's opened up,

851
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:59,959
Speaker 2: So choosing the right notes to play is a big deal.

852
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 2: Ron cardigtal tell I think that's the title of his biography.

853
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 2: It's something to do with searching for the right notes.

854
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 1: Okay, the obvious dumb question, you place the end up bass.

855
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 1: There are bass electric bassed guitars with no frets. Is

856
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:20,360
Speaker 1: it feel or do you sort of memorize where the

857
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 1: threts would be. What's the trick?

858
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 2: Yes, it's feel. You can actually even if you don't

859
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,319
Speaker 2: hear it yourself, because especially you know when you have

860
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,479
Speaker 2: a really good bass that resonates as one piece of wood,

861
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 2: even though it's a couple pieces of wood put together,

862
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 2: you feel it on your body. It's very physical on

863
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:47,720
Speaker 2: the bass, and you can tell from the vibration whether

864
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 2: you're in tune and you're just and you don't necessarily

865
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:57,280
Speaker 2: want to be perfectly in tune, you know. Brian Wilson

866
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:01,959
Speaker 2: once told me, he said, when when studio musicians when

867
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:05,919
Speaker 2: they started buying these personal tuners, when that came out

868
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,760
Speaker 2: and you didn't tune by ear right, he said, record's

869
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 2: got all thin. He said, it doesn't sound good when

870
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 2: everybody's perfectly in tune. And if you think about an orchestra,

871
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 2: that's why an eighty piece orchestra is so huge sound

872
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 2: because everybody's a little bit out, but among the eighty people,

873
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 2: they fill in the gap and it turns into one note.

874
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:36,919
Speaker 2: But it's a warmer, fuller sound when you're not perfectly into.

875
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 1: Okay, let's set the stage. It's sixty four. You hear

876
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 1: the Beatles. In terms of what comes out of Detroit,

877
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: we have Motown breaks around the same time where did

878
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 1: Our Love go goes top forty goes big? Then in

879
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 1: terms of what comes out of Detroit, it's big, is

880
00:56:56,560 --> 00:57:02,240
Speaker 1: pretty much Mitch Ryder Okay, Stugents sixty nine seventy, same

881
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: thing with the MC five. They don't make big commercial impacts.

882
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:11,839
Speaker 1: Bob Seekers on independent labels. You keep hearing about them.

883
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: Was this something we live in Los Angeles, a giant

884
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 1: suburban city. There's shit going on all the time that

885
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: we have no access about we might hear about. Was

886
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: it like that you're young or was there any pollination,

887
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 1: any cross pollination intersection with that bigger scene.

888
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 2: You mean a cross between like.

889
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 1: You, Oh me, yeah, little DoD Well. You know it's like, oh,

890
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 1: Bob Seeker his bass player lives down the street. I

891
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:45,919
Speaker 1: go to somebody's house, I listen. Oh yeah, I sat

892
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 1: in on the studio or as they could have been

893
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:50,959
Speaker 1: in you know, Seattle for all you knew.

894
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:58,440
Speaker 2: Well, there's a there's a local consciousness that permeates that music,

895
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 2: that makes it feel more personal, I think. But to me,

896
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 2: there was effectively no difference in Detroit between Bob Seeger

897
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 2: or the Beatles, or really John Sinclair, who was quite

898
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 2: a heroic figure to me.

899
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 1: Okay, John Sinclair, what do we know? You bought the

900
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 1: original MC five record that wasn't uncentried. You open it up,

901
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 1: you had a whole squeed. What we knew was John

902
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 1: Sinclair was the manager with Air quotes and they arrested

903
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: him for two joints. You know, this is not like

904
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 1: today we could go deep into somebody. So what did

905
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 1: John Sinclair represent for you?

906
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 2: John Sinclair was the leader of the alternative culture in Detroit.

907
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 2: He was a political activist. His role with the MC

908
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 2: five was really in grasping the idea that you could

909
00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 2: have a guitar army, which is a phrase that he pined,

910
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 2: and that you could change the hearts and minds of

911
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:06,919
Speaker 2: young people and open them up to bigger ideas through

912
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 2: rock and roll. But he was a beat poet and

913
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 2: an advocate for jazz, and he was just everywhere I knew,

914
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 2: more as an anti war activist than as the manager

915
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 2: of the MC five. And that was a minor part

916
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 2: of his life, I would say, But he was He

917
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 2: was local, but what he had to say was as

918
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 2: influential as maybe John Lennon would have said, or what

919
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 2: Bob Dylan would say. He was so that that was

920
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 2: part of the beauty of having local cultures. It's something

921
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 2: that's kind of gone now because everything's so global. You'd

922
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 2: have regional hit records. You don't have regional hit you

923
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 2: don't even have you know, you put a record up

924
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 2: to stream. It's all over the world. Now you know

925
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 2: that you can't I have a regional hit. It just

926
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 2: doesn't work like that. But there you to answer your

927
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 2: bigger question. I think when things were local, you could

928
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:16,439
Speaker 2: feel more a part of it. I felt a part

929
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 2: of that culture in Detroit. I had friends who were

930
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 2: more deeply enmeshed in it. There's a guy named Joel

931
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 2: Landy who became quite an activist in Detroit. Body of mine.

932
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 2: He ran the print shop for the alternative paper, the

933
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 2: Fifth of State, which was next to Sinclair's Enterprises, right,

934
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:40,560
Speaker 2: And I remember he called me up and said, you

935
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 2: got to come down here, man, And I got my car,

936
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 2: drove downtown and the members of the MC five were

937
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 2: jamming with members of Pharaoh Saunders band. Fuck man. I

938
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 2: never heard anything like that in my life, and I

939
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 2: actually I've never heard anything like it. Subsequent that became

940
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:04,760
Speaker 2: like a virtue, you know, that was something that could

941
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 2: only happen in Detroit, and uh, it felt. It awakened

942
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 2: a part of me, I felt, but I felt connected

943
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:21,560
Speaker 2: to it because because it just spoke to me as

944
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 2: a as someone who lived in that familiar you know, Okay,

945
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 2: you gained success. Eventually, John Sinclair comes out of jail.

946
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 2: Did you have any personal contact with him later in life?

947
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:38,360
Speaker 2: We became really good friends. He's on a couple of

948
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 2: us and I was records and I played on his albums,

949
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 2: you know. And I played gigs with him too when

950
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 2: I could.

951
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:48,440
Speaker 1: But did you know the times it changed he was

952
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 1: in jail. I should know that he worked with you,

953
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 1: but obviously I didn't. Was he the same guy with

954
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 1: the same charisma?

955
01:01:55,600 --> 01:02:01,640
Speaker 2: He never faltered man, you know, he passed man, but

956
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 2: to this last breath. Man he was rebellious and a

957
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 2: little crotchety about it, you know, but he did. He

958
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:14,439
Speaker 2: never surrendered when everybody else did, when everyone else said,

959
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 2: he never gave up the fight. And it was it

960
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 2: was an admirable quality. It represented real conviction. Most people

961
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 2: he could have cashed out. It was several junctions.

962
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 1: That's the story of our generation. You know, we protested

963
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 1: in the sixties seventies, back to the Land movement. We're

964
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:36,919
Speaker 1: licking the wounds. Reagan legitimized greed. All of a sudden,

965
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 1: everybody's values flipped. Yeah, you know, they wanted to make money.

966
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:44,400
Speaker 1: It was really very strange. You get some success with

967
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 1: was Not was so Bonnie Rate he loses her record deal. Ultimately,

968
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 1: the guy worked at Warners, working at Capital, they sign her.

969
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 1: Where do you come in in that process?

970
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 2: Before they signed her, what happened was there's a guy

971
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:08,480
Speaker 2: named Hal Wilner who was a very dear friend aside

972
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 2: from COVID. From COVID early on, you know, the first

973
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 2: couple of weeks of it. I think beautiful Cat just

974
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 2: loved music. Earned a living by being the the music

975
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:25,640
Speaker 2: supervisor maybe of Saturday Night Live. I'm not sure what

976
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 2: the title was, but any kind of music you heard

977
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 2: in the things. He was responsible for that. But he

978
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 2: invented the tribute record, and as opposed to getting all

979
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 2: the superstars together, he put he would put together the

980
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 2: most eclectic lens of people and and encourage you to

981
01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 2: stretch out, so he called us. Was Not was when

982
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:51,440
Speaker 2: we were still not No one knew who he were,

983
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 2: and came to Detroit and had us cut something for

984
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 2: a flneous a Monk tribute record. We had Sheila Jordan's

985
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 2: singing with us, and we thought, great, freed from the

986
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:05,080
Speaker 2: constraints of making pop records, we can get out here

987
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:11,680
Speaker 2: and well, you know, it's like Carla Blaye was on

988
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:15,240
Speaker 2: the record. You can't out Carlo Blade right right right.

989
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 2: So we just got lost in the shuffle because everyone

990
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 2: was trying to stretch out. So I said, all right,

991
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 2: next time, we're going to stand out by going inside

992
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 2: and touching people's hearts. So the next album he had

993
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 2: was a Disney tribute album. So we did an arrangement

994
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:37,280
Speaker 2: of baby Mine, which a very sad song in the

995
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 2: movie Mother Elephant gets, you know, locked up in the

996
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 2: cage and the baby comes and they touched trunks through

997
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:47,400
Speaker 2: the bars. If you don't cry in the scene, there's

998
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:53,560
Speaker 2: you need help. So we did like a real nice

999
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 2: three four maybe six eight feel, but it was like

1000
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:00,360
Speaker 2: an R and B kind of thing. And and from

1001
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 2: the arrangement, I just heard Bonnie singing because I've been

1002
01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 2: a fan of hers since since she can't I bought,

1003
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:09,680
Speaker 2: I got her first record, and so I played live

1004
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:13,040
Speaker 2: at the ann Arbert Blues and Jazz Festival. So I

1005
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 2: always loved her, and Hell put us together. So we

1006
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 2: worked on that song and we clicked. We clicked musically

1007
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:27,520
Speaker 2: and personally. She felt like a like a long lost

1008
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:32,040
Speaker 2: sister to me. You know, I could just well, you

1009
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:34,120
Speaker 2: can't help but love her, man, She's just one of

1010
01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:38,480
Speaker 2: the best people, biggest heart. H you did a wonderful

1011
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:43,600
Speaker 2: moview with her, Oh thank you, and uh so we

1012
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:46,400
Speaker 2: just clicked and it was like, well, let's do more stuff.

1013
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:49,360
Speaker 2: Well I don't have a record deal, that's okay, just

1014
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:50,919
Speaker 2: come on. I got a little I had a little

1015
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 2: eight track things set up in my house and we

1016
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:59,960
Speaker 2: we started. We started doing demos for what would become

1017
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:05,680
Speaker 2: Nicked Time. And it took some time to make that

1018
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 2: deal happen. She was managed by Danny Goldberg and Ron

1019
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 2: Stone at gold Ma and she'd been dropped by Warners

1020
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:18,280
Speaker 2: and there was a stigma attached to that and took it.

1021
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 2: It took a minute to overcome that and find it

1022
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:26,040
Speaker 2: is Joe Smith, who was part of letting her go

1023
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:29,360
Speaker 2: at Warner Brothers and not happy about it, who gave

1024
01:06:29,360 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 2: her the shot that capitol. So you know, we made

1025
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:39,000
Speaker 2: Nicked Time. We made it real fast, but we were prepared.

1026
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 2: We did something before we started the record. She came

1027
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:45,760
Speaker 2: over to my place a number of times and we

1028
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:49,400
Speaker 2: cut just demos with her either playing guitar alone or

1029
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:54,040
Speaker 2: playing piano and singing, and we figured you know, if

1030
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:58,880
Speaker 2: the song doesn't work with you playing it alone, whatever

1031
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:01,480
Speaker 2: other layers stuff we put on, it's not going to

1032
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:05,040
Speaker 2: make it work. So let's find you know, ten that

1033
01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 2: and and so we're ready.

1034
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 1: Okay, So all the stuff you cut before the deal,

1035
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:16,840
Speaker 1: none of those were masters. It was after the deal

1036
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:17,880
Speaker 1: you recut everything.

1037
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:22,520
Speaker 2: We recut everything, and we cut it pretty quickly. We

1038
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:23,840
Speaker 2: didn't have a lot of bread. We had one hundred

1039
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:26,920
Speaker 2: and fifty thousand dollars, which now actually seems like a

1040
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:30,920
Speaker 2: big boat, right, but that was like that was minimal

1041
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:32,680
Speaker 2: kind of budget in those days.

1042
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 1: Did you bring any of the songs or did she

1043
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:36,200
Speaker 1: bring all the songs?

1044
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:42,800
Speaker 2: I'm sure she brought all the songs. She's a great musicologist.

1045
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:48,760
Speaker 2: People would send She always had boxes cassettes of demos.

1046
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:53,120
Speaker 2: In fact, on the second album, Luck of the Draw,

1047
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:57,120
Speaker 2: we'd cut most of the album. We were ready, but

1048
01:07:57,160 --> 01:08:00,240
Speaker 2: we didn't have the up tempost single that we thought

1049
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:03,720
Speaker 2: it was gonna require. And she was going through every

1050
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:08,080
Speaker 2: box and way at the bottom of like the last box,

1051
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 2: she found Shirty Elkhart's song something to Talk About Me.

1052
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 2: She said, I found it. But the thing about Bonnie

1053
01:08:18,040 --> 01:08:21,320
Speaker 2: is that she won't sing anything that she couldn't have

1054
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:24,759
Speaker 2: written herself. That she didn't want to have to act.

1055
01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:30,760
Speaker 2: She wanted to draw from personal experience. So everything that

1056
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 2: we cut, if she wasn't a writer, it was something

1057
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:36,559
Speaker 2: that she felt and was experiencing and was experiencing at

1058
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 2: that moment, which is the one reason her vocals are

1059
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:40,439
Speaker 2: so great, because she means it.

1060
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:46,120
Speaker 1: Okay, niked, time is done. You know, it has success

1061
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:50,759
Speaker 1: that no one could foresee. But when it was done,

1062
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:52,760
Speaker 1: how do you feel about it?

1063
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:54,160
Speaker 2: I mean she'd been up and down.

1064
01:08:54,280 --> 01:08:57,640
Speaker 1: She cut, you know, records on FOD track at a

1065
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:01,000
Speaker 1: summer camp she worked with Paul Roth, a Jerry raggvoy.

1066
01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:05,400
Speaker 1: Everything had been tried and nothing really worked. So you're there,

1067
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:08,479
Speaker 1: I mean the record is done. You say, wait a second,

1068
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:10,439
Speaker 1: there's something specially. He said, Well, you know, we gave

1069
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:10,960
Speaker 1: it our all.

1070
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:18,240
Speaker 2: We'll see what happens. We never considered that kind of success,

1071
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:21,599
Speaker 2: the kind of success we enjoyed, never considered that to

1072
01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:24,320
Speaker 2: be in the cards. We just were trying to make

1073
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:26,720
Speaker 2: something we'd be proud of in twenty five years. That

1074
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:29,960
Speaker 2: was something that we have actually said, let's not compromise

1075
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 2: for the marketplace, don't imitate what's out now, because what

1076
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:37,960
Speaker 2: was out then was like flock of seagulls, and you know,

1077
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:41,000
Speaker 2: it was just the opposite, the antithesis of what she

1078
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:45,080
Speaker 2: was about. Don't try to be eighteen. I mean that

1079
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:47,679
Speaker 2: was another thing too. You know, it was such such

1080
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:50,000
Speaker 2: a brave thing to write and record a song like

1081
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:55,200
Speaker 2: nick of Time, because at that point, the conventional wisdom

1082
01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:57,679
Speaker 2: was that, even if you were closing it I'm forty,

1083
01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:01,519
Speaker 2: you had to pretend to be eighteen, right, And she

1084
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:06,200
Speaker 2: just dropped that pretense, and she wrote to her age

1085
01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:11,840
Speaker 2: and not everyone thought that was a great idea, but

1086
01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:16,200
Speaker 2: no one considered that her audience was going through that

1087
01:10:16,360 --> 01:10:19,840
Speaker 2: exact same thing. Plus, I mean, plus it's time, it's

1088
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:23,680
Speaker 2: nick of time? Is it that happened? That song is

1089
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:27,599
Speaker 2: relevant to every generation somewhere in their forties, right, So

1090
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:32,040
Speaker 2: it's a timeless song. But she was gutsy about it,

1091
01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:36,439
Speaker 2: and we hoped we'd get to the next record and

1092
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:39,840
Speaker 2: make something that we'd be proud of. At one point

1093
01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:43,680
Speaker 2: someone came back to us and said, you know, we

1094
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:45,800
Speaker 2: need a Motown cover, We need a single for this,

1095
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:50,559
Speaker 2: And thankfully we were both on tour and couldn't get

1096
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:53,200
Speaker 2: back together to do it me, because if we'd have

1097
01:10:53,240 --> 01:10:55,960
Speaker 2: done that, it would have ruined the album, I think,

1098
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:59,519
Speaker 2: and everything that it stood for. So we just had

1099
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:00,960
Speaker 2: to put it out the way it was. I remember

1100
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 2: Tim Divine was the anarch guy, and Tim came to

1101
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:07,559
Speaker 2: the studio. We played it for him and he said

1102
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:11,200
Speaker 2: to me, he said, you got a tux. No, I

1103
01:11:11,240 --> 01:11:13,080
Speaker 2: don't have a tux. He said, we'll get when you're

1104
01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:16,200
Speaker 2: going to the Grammys. My first instinct was to punch

1105
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:18,720
Speaker 2: him right now, you know you like it, to just

1106
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:20,040
Speaker 2: say you like that. You don't have to come in

1107
01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:23,320
Speaker 2: here and be all hyperbolic. But he was right, he

1108
01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 2: heard it.

1109
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 1: Okay, it's a very interesting thing with Bonnie. For a

1110
01:11:28,680 --> 01:11:32,120
Speaker 1: long time. My favorite record was the second record give

1111
01:11:32,160 --> 01:11:35,639
Speaker 1: it Up. Then she works with you. After a little

1112
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:37,880
Speaker 1: bit of hiatus, having no label deal, you put on

1113
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:43,600
Speaker 1: Nick of Time, very successful. Luck of the Draw is

1114
01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:47,480
Speaker 1: a peak that's actually for me and I told everybody

1115
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:51,519
Speaker 1: involved except maybe you, that better than give it Up.

1116
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:56,360
Speaker 1: So now you have the pressure of having had success.

1117
01:11:56,720 --> 01:11:58,840
Speaker 1: So what was the mental state of going in to

1118
01:11:58,920 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 1: record Luck of the Draw?

1119
01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:10,400
Speaker 2: Uh? I think we were remarkably cool about it, to

1120
01:12:10,479 --> 01:12:13,599
Speaker 2: be I think we were uh. I think it gave

1121
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:18,000
Speaker 2: us confidence to follow our instincts. And by the way,

1122
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:20,400
Speaker 2: when I talk about us, I can't talk about us.

1123
01:12:25,080 --> 01:12:28,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, you are you going to break down? You're going

1124
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:31,200
Speaker 1: to mention the engineer here, very sad story.

1125
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:40,240
Speaker 2: Ah, I can't talk about us without mentioning Ed Shirney

1126
01:12:44,920 --> 01:12:46,479
Speaker 2: Ship Bobby.

1127
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:49,120
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I became close. I mean I knew

1128
01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:51,800
Speaker 1: Ed Brobab probably ten or fifteen years before. Body became

1129
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:56,200
Speaker 1: close just before he died. And I didn't really think

1130
01:12:56,240 --> 01:12:57,040
Speaker 1: he was going to die.

1131
01:12:57,920 --> 01:12:58,120
Speaker 2: You know.

1132
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:01,479
Speaker 1: I guess I spoke with him, you know, one time,

1133
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:04,160
Speaker 1: just before you because he used to talk to Al

1134
01:13:04,240 --> 01:13:07,000
Speaker 1: Schmidt every day they used to wake up. And then

1135
01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 1: they both died.

1136
01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:10,599
Speaker 2: But you know, I.

1137
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:14,800
Speaker 1: Guess he died before his time. And it's not like

1138
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:17,400
Speaker 1: he died in his twenties. It's and he was such

1139
01:13:17,400 --> 01:13:20,040
Speaker 1: a you know, upbeat, fun guy. Not that he didn't

1140
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:23,040
Speaker 1: have his darkness whatever, It's just not the type of

1141
01:13:23,080 --> 01:13:25,640
Speaker 1: guy you expect not to be here. It's hard to

1142
01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:26,800
Speaker 1: explain if you didn't know him.

1143
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:29,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, He's a wonderful guy and just had this

1144
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:35,719
Speaker 2: great spirit about him and he he changed the energy

1145
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:38,960
Speaker 2: of the sessions. So much. He made it such a

1146
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:44,960
Speaker 2: positive thing and relaxed people. And but in addition to

1147
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:49,679
Speaker 2: all his human characteristics, he uh, he was a genius

1148
01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:53,640
Speaker 2: engineer and nick ad time and lucky to draw on.

1149
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:58,639
Speaker 2: Those records are as much his design. Because we were torn.

1150
01:13:58,880 --> 01:14:02,040
Speaker 2: We didn't know how this record should sound. I wanted

1151
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:06,479
Speaker 2: it to sound like Joshua Tree. I wanted dark and dry,

1152
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:13,160
Speaker 2: and Bonnie wanted it natural like her other records have been.

1153
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:16,439
Speaker 2: And Ed was coming from working with Quincy Jones on

1154
01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:20,680
Speaker 2: something and was putting long echoes on things. Long you know,

1155
01:14:20,760 --> 01:14:27,240
Speaker 2: long delays, long reverbs, and somehow we had to find

1156
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:30,479
Speaker 2: a middle ground, and Ed came up with a way

1157
01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:34,600
Speaker 2: to use really short delays and really short reverbs that

1158
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:42,880
Speaker 2: are imperceptible. You don't hear it as reverb. They sound

1159
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:45,840
Speaker 2: very natural. They sound very dry, like you could have

1160
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:48,439
Speaker 2: put one really great mic up in the room and

1161
01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:52,720
Speaker 2: balanced it in the room. Sounds very natural, but it's

1162
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:55,679
Speaker 2: actually there's a lot of work that went into that sound.

1163
01:14:56,560 --> 01:15:00,559
Speaker 2: And people started imitating him. After that, everything got away

1164
01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:02,920
Speaker 2: from the long reverbs and people were going for some

1165
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:07,280
Speaker 2: kind of intimacy again, and Ed was the architect of

1166
01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:10,280
Speaker 2: that thing. That's why I think of engineers and mixers.

1167
01:15:10,320 --> 01:15:13,639
Speaker 2: I think of them as architects because when you put

1168
01:15:13,680 --> 01:15:17,519
Speaker 2: on headphones, put your head right between the speakers, you

1169
01:15:17,560 --> 01:15:20,920
Speaker 2: can hear the you can picture a room. You can

1170
01:15:20,960 --> 01:15:25,960
Speaker 2: hear reflections off of walls, but those walls don't actually exist.

1171
01:15:26,160 --> 01:15:29,000
Speaker 2: It's not actually a photograph of the room it was

1172
01:15:29,040 --> 01:15:33,400
Speaker 2: recorded in. You create the illusion of a wall by

1173
01:15:33,400 --> 01:15:36,960
Speaker 2: putting a delay in there, and then a signal is

1174
01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:39,240
Speaker 2: bouncing off of this thing the same way you perceive

1175
01:15:39,479 --> 01:15:43,879
Speaker 2: like sonar, the same way sonar works, so you perceive walls.

1176
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:47,639
Speaker 2: And the great mixers are beautiful architects. They build these

1177
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:53,000
Speaker 2: imaginary rooms that compliment the music, don't overshadow the music.

1178
01:15:53,479 --> 01:15:57,920
Speaker 2: They compliment the thing and help the storytelling. And Ed

1179
01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:03,920
Speaker 2: built this beautiful space for Bonnie to sing these songs,

1180
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:10,400
Speaker 2: and the intimacy of those records allowed her to communicate

1181
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:13,759
Speaker 2: directly with people. Our goal is to make it feel

1182
01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:17,519
Speaker 2: like like you were driving your car and Bonnie was

1183
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:20,160
Speaker 2: in the in the passenger seat next to you, leaning

1184
01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:23,800
Speaker 2: in and singing to you in your ear. That was

1185
01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:26,439
Speaker 2: when we when we talked about it at the beginning.

1186
01:16:26,479 --> 01:16:29,360
Speaker 2: That's what we're going for. And I think we achieved

1187
01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:33,439
Speaker 2: that and that's in you know, large part due to Dad.

1188
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:37,959
Speaker 1: So how did you meet Ed and start working with him.

1189
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:41,160
Speaker 2: Over that record? I didn't know him before that, and.

1190
01:16:41,280 --> 01:16:43,080
Speaker 1: So how did you end up with him?

1191
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:47,360
Speaker 2: He had done Right Cooter's It is a bop to

1192
01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:49,000
Speaker 2: your draft. I'm trying to remember.

1193
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:53,479
Speaker 1: Which I was earlier. Well, he did a Right Cooder record.

1194
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:55,360
Speaker 2: He did a Right Cooter record right around the time.

1195
01:16:55,439 --> 01:16:58,360
Speaker 2: Bonnie liked the sound of it, so she said, let's

1196
01:16:58,439 --> 01:17:00,320
Speaker 2: let's get together with that. We went to move Sewing

1197
01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:04,439
Speaker 2: Franks and it was like it is like the three

1198
01:17:04,439 --> 01:17:06,320
Speaker 2: of us had known each other forever.

1199
01:17:14,479 --> 01:17:19,559
Speaker 1: Okay, Bonnie, after a number of records you no longer

1200
01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:25,320
Speaker 1: work with. This has happened with other acts. Why does

1201
01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:27,680
Speaker 1: it run out? And how do you feel about it?

1202
01:17:38,880 --> 01:17:39,719
Speaker 2: I don't know the answer.

1203
01:17:40,439 --> 01:17:42,680
Speaker 1: Well, you got to know the answer to how it

1204
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:44,559
Speaker 1: feels when they don't call you.

1205
01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:53,439
Speaker 2: Well, we talked about making the next record, and she liked, ah,

1206
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:59,360
Speaker 2: what's the the Lost Lobos record? How well the worst

1207
01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:03,040
Speaker 2: will survive? That one after that? The one that's very experimental,

1208
01:18:03,120 --> 01:18:07,680
Speaker 2: that that Mitchell Prum did, Mitchell Fruman, Chad Blake. She

1209
01:18:08,439 --> 01:18:10,040
Speaker 2: I just can't think of the name of the alright,

1210
01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:14,160
Speaker 2: but it's a great, incredible record. She wanted to go

1211
01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:18,599
Speaker 2: for more of those kind of sounds, and it wasn't

1212
01:18:18,640 --> 01:18:23,160
Speaker 2: really what Ed and I did, and there's no no

1213
01:18:23,320 --> 01:18:26,360
Speaker 2: value judgment on it. I said, well, yeah, you know,

1214
01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:29,640
Speaker 2: maybe you should go with Mitchell if you want, if

1215
01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:32,080
Speaker 2: you want that thing to do that. It was never

1216
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:37,599
Speaker 2: We talked about it, and it wasn't. It was most

1217
01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:44,519
Speaker 2: amicable and and she made some great records too. So people,

1218
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:46,920
Speaker 2: you can't keep you doing the same things, and you

1219
01:18:47,000 --> 01:18:52,280
Speaker 2: got to shake things up. I think that's just part

1220
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:55,719
Speaker 2: of the nature of making records. We couldn't keep going

1221
01:18:55,840 --> 01:18:58,240
Speaker 2: with that sound. We did three records with that sound,

1222
01:18:58,479 --> 01:19:01,840
Speaker 2: and a live album that covered all the material and

1223
01:19:02,439 --> 01:19:07,200
Speaker 2: brought it together. And you want artists want to grow.

1224
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:10,920
Speaker 2: I didn't take it personally. I hope. I don't think

1225
01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 2: she took it personally. If we you know, we we're

1226
01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:21,040
Speaker 2: still wonderful friends to this day. That's just how it goes.

1227
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:26,280
Speaker 1: Okay, you mentioned Pharaoh, Saunders and all these other people.

1228
01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:34,160
Speaker 1: Where does this jazz influence come from.

1229
01:19:31,840 --> 01:19:36,639
Speaker 2: Well, tell your story. I was I was fourteen years

1230
01:19:36,680 --> 01:19:39,800
Speaker 2: old in Detroit, my mom was making me drive around

1231
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:44,519
Speaker 2: with her on Sunday running errands, right, and I just

1232
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:47,000
Speaker 2: wanted to be at Northland Mall with my friends and

1233
01:19:47,360 --> 01:19:50,320
Speaker 2: to hang out with my mom. So it was a

1234
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:54,400
Speaker 2: pretty crabby, obnoxious kid that afternoon. She was disgusted. She

1235
01:19:54,479 --> 01:19:57,320
Speaker 2: left me in the car, gave me the keys. He said,

1236
01:19:57,360 --> 01:19:59,640
Speaker 2: just play with the radio. I'll be right back. I

1237
01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:03,679
Speaker 2: remember were sitting outside of the Park Library. I'm messing

1238
01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:07,680
Speaker 2: with the tile, and I just randomly landed on a

1239
01:20:07,760 --> 01:20:10,080
Speaker 2: station that I didn't know it existed, because we didn't

1240
01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:13,400
Speaker 2: have FM radio in the house, right, And it was WHD,

1241
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:18,439
Speaker 2: which was the jazz station. It was a very highly

1242
01:20:18,439 --> 01:20:21,280
Speaker 2: regarded DJ who's still on the air in Detroit in

1243
01:20:21,320 --> 01:20:23,240
Speaker 2: his nineties, by the way, a guy named ed Love

1244
01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:26,400
Speaker 2: who used to back announce records and was a jazz

1245
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:31,000
Speaker 2: dis job. I came in on the station just as

1246
01:20:31,040 --> 01:20:34,000
Speaker 2: a song, which I later learned was Mode for Joe

1247
01:20:34,160 --> 01:20:37,600
Speaker 2: by Joe Henderson, which is a Blue Note record. And

1248
01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:39,840
Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about jazz. I'd probably heard it

1249
01:20:39,880 --> 01:20:42,920
Speaker 2: in the background and movies and stuff, but I didn't

1250
01:20:43,120 --> 01:20:47,920
Speaker 2: think about it ever. And right where I hit is

1251
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:50,680
Speaker 2: where he starts as solo and you can check it.

1252
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:53,880
Speaker 2: It happens about forty six seconds in the song. He's

1253
01:20:53,920 --> 01:20:56,840
Speaker 2: making these kind of anguish cries with the sacks. I'd

1254
01:20:56,880 --> 01:21:06,719
Speaker 2: never heard of saxophone and grabbed my attention because whatever

1255
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:09,600
Speaker 2: Joe Henderson was going through that the sound he was

1256
01:21:09,680 --> 01:21:13,120
Speaker 2: making sounded like exactly how I felt being stuck driving

1257
01:21:13,160 --> 01:21:16,599
Speaker 2: around with my mom all day, so that it got

1258
01:21:16,640 --> 01:21:20,599
Speaker 2: my ears. And then I don't know ten fifteen seconds

1259
01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:23,880
Speaker 2: in the drummer, guy named Joe Chambers starts swinging on

1260
01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:31,360
Speaker 2: his ride symbol. And Joe Chambers stops howling and starts grooving,

1261
01:21:32,360 --> 01:21:34,479
Speaker 2: and I thought he was talking to me. I picked

1262
01:21:34,520 --> 01:21:37,840
Speaker 2: up a nonverbal message from there. I thought he was saying,

1263
01:21:37,960 --> 01:21:43,280
Speaker 2: don you got to groove in the face of adversity.

1264
01:21:43,320 --> 01:21:46,839
Speaker 2: And I thought about it, and he had just showed

1265
01:21:46,840 --> 01:21:50,400
Speaker 2: me how to do that. He started, no matter how

1266
01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:54,600
Speaker 2: how much angst he was experiencing, he couldn't resist the

1267
01:21:54,720 --> 01:22:01,240
Speaker 2: ride symbol and he started swinging. And I took the

1268
01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:03,200
Speaker 2: message to heart, and by the time my mom got

1269
01:22:03,280 --> 01:22:05,760
Speaker 2: back in the car, I was relaxed and a nice

1270
01:22:05,800 --> 01:22:09,760
Speaker 2: kid again, and I understood that there was something about

1271
01:22:09,800 --> 01:22:14,519
Speaker 2: this music that was highly communicative on another level than

1272
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:19,840
Speaker 2: what I was experiencing with, you know, the Cherrell's or

1273
01:22:19,880 --> 01:22:23,960
Speaker 2: whatever at the same time. So I got an FM

1274
01:22:24,080 --> 01:22:28,479
Speaker 2: radio and started listening to this jazz station and just

1275
01:22:28,680 --> 01:22:32,679
Speaker 2: totally became enamored of this one company that was putting

1276
01:22:32,680 --> 01:22:36,360
Speaker 2: out all these great records. And then I saw the artwork.

1277
01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:40,800
Speaker 2: There was Blue Note Records, the little independent company out

1278
01:22:40,840 --> 01:22:45,080
Speaker 2: of New York. The covers were incredible, photography was amazing.

1279
01:22:45,080 --> 01:22:48,720
Speaker 2: It's black and white photography with these guys and cigarettes,

1280
01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:53,519
Speaker 2: smoke and saxophones and cool clothes and whatever. It was

1281
01:22:53,600 --> 01:22:57,000
Speaker 2: about that familiar I wanted to be part of it.

1282
01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:01,800
Speaker 2: I knew then wherever I can't figure out what room

1283
01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:04,479
Speaker 2: they're in the walls are black, I couldn't duck and

1284
01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:10,799
Speaker 2: dump it. This is the coolest stuff. Subsequently, I learned

1285
01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:14,679
Speaker 2: the roots of this music, which is that it comes

1286
01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:21,000
Speaker 2: from extreme oppression from the African the aspora, people who

1287
01:23:21,040 --> 01:23:23,360
Speaker 2: are here against their will and being forced to give

1288
01:23:23,439 --> 01:23:26,120
Speaker 2: up their culture or at least hide their culture. And

1289
01:23:26,120 --> 01:23:29,240
Speaker 2: they were able to hide it musically keep it alive.

1290
01:23:30,080 --> 01:23:36,719
Speaker 2: And that's where this music comes from. So it's popular

1291
01:23:36,840 --> 01:23:40,760
Speaker 2: all over the world because anyone who's oppressed, and there's

1292
01:23:40,800 --> 01:23:43,880
Speaker 2: oppression all over the world with all different kinds of people.

1293
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:53,800
Speaker 2: This is the music that you should comfort and understanding

1294
01:23:53,880 --> 01:24:00,160
Speaker 2: of the situation. So I just became like a huge man.

1295
01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:05,360
Speaker 2: This music really spoke to me, and I collected the records.

1296
01:24:05,120 --> 01:24:08,880
Speaker 2: We used to get on a bus man we'd call

1297
01:24:08,920 --> 01:24:10,960
Speaker 2: around it. This goes back to the days before there

1298
01:24:10,960 --> 01:24:13,800
Speaker 2: were chain record stores. Every record store was a mom

1299
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:16,280
Speaker 2: and pop store and reflected the taste of the owner

1300
01:24:16,320 --> 01:24:19,519
Speaker 2: a little bit too, So we'd have to call ten

1301
01:24:19,640 --> 01:24:22,920
Speaker 2: stores to find out, oh, you've got a copulary, young Unity.

1302
01:24:23,120 --> 01:24:25,400
Speaker 2: We'd get on the bus ride forty five minutes to

1303
01:24:25,439 --> 01:24:27,840
Speaker 2: the east side of Detroit just to hold the thing.

1304
01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:30,519
Speaker 2: It was four ninety eight or three ninety eight for

1305
01:24:30,600 --> 01:24:33,160
Speaker 2: the two ninety eight for the mono, right, three ninety

1306
01:24:33,160 --> 01:24:36,519
Speaker 2: eight for the stereo. Couldn't afford either one. But I

1307
01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:38,719
Speaker 2: could hold it and look at it, look at the pictures,

1308
01:24:38,760 --> 01:24:41,120
Speaker 2: and read the liner notes, and maybe you could con

1309
01:24:41,200 --> 01:24:43,920
Speaker 2: the store owner into breaking the seal and playing some

1310
01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:47,880
Speaker 2: of the record for you. I started collecting them. Never

1311
01:24:48,200 --> 01:24:50,960
Speaker 2: gone to me that fifty some years later, I didn't

1312
01:24:51,280 --> 01:24:53,880
Speaker 2: being president that label.

1313
01:24:54,760 --> 01:24:59,599
Speaker 1: Okay, A couple of questions, jazz had a peek conventional wisdom.

1314
01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:02,320
Speaker 1: Don't argue with me. I'm just putting it out. Pejorative

1315
01:25:02,400 --> 01:25:05,800
Speaker 1: jazz is dead, just like rock and roll is dead.

1316
01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:09,599
Speaker 1: Now now, there have been so many iterations of jazz,

1317
01:25:09,640 --> 01:25:16,280
Speaker 1: there's been smooth jazz, et cetera. How does someone who

1318
01:25:16,400 --> 01:25:20,759
Speaker 1: is not a jazz fan, where is the entry point?

1319
01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:28,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's a that's a very good question to me.

1320
01:25:28,520 --> 01:25:33,320
Speaker 2: The essence of jazz or even improvisational music. I extend

1321
01:25:33,320 --> 01:25:37,080
Speaker 2: that to like The Grateful Dead and Goose and bands

1322
01:25:37,160 --> 01:25:44,880
Speaker 2: like that. They're conversations. They're there are people listening to

1323
01:25:44,920 --> 01:25:48,400
Speaker 2: each other and reacting. The best musicians are the ones

1324
01:25:48,439 --> 01:25:52,240
Speaker 2: who listen to what everyone else is playing and not

1325
01:25:52,280 --> 01:25:57,040
Speaker 2: only react, but suggests something new that advances the conversation further.

1326
01:25:59,160 --> 01:26:01,679
Speaker 2: Not every if you go to a party, not every

1327
01:26:01,680 --> 01:26:05,840
Speaker 2: conversation is for you. Right, you stand with some group

1328
01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:09,240
Speaker 2: of people and they're talking about some bullshit. You sort

1329
01:26:09,280 --> 01:26:11,880
Speaker 2: of back up quietly and find some other people to

1330
01:26:11,960 --> 01:26:15,000
Speaker 2: talk to. But you can always find something to sink

1331
01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:18,400
Speaker 2: your teeth into. And it's very much the same with jazz.

1332
01:26:19,560 --> 01:26:23,880
Speaker 2: I recommend going Easy kind of Blue by Miles Davis

1333
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:27,040
Speaker 2: is a pretty safe entry point for people. Blue Trained

1334
01:26:27,200 --> 01:26:32,360
Speaker 2: by John Coltrane, which is the most popular catalog album

1335
01:26:32,400 --> 01:26:37,120
Speaker 2: that Blue Note's got. That's just it makes you feel good.

1336
01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:42,160
Speaker 2: You put those records on, you feel good. And the

1337
01:26:42,280 --> 01:26:46,519
Speaker 2: greatest misconception about jazz is that you have to study,

1338
01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:49,280
Speaker 2: you know, two years of music theory at the university

1339
01:26:49,360 --> 01:26:54,200
Speaker 2: level to qualify it to listen to it. And that's

1340
01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:58,000
Speaker 2: just not true. You shouldn't even be aware of the seams.

1341
01:26:58,040 --> 01:27:01,840
Speaker 2: You shouldn't know what these guys study to play like that.

1342
01:27:02,439 --> 01:27:06,080
Speaker 2: You should. It either speaks to you or it doesn't.

1343
01:27:06,439 --> 01:27:13,240
Speaker 2: And I don't love all jazz. You know that A

1344
01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:15,000
Speaker 2: lot of it doesn't speak to me. I don't like

1345
01:27:15,040 --> 01:27:18,040
Speaker 2: it when it gets too cerebral, when people are sometimes

1346
01:27:18,040 --> 01:27:22,200
Speaker 2: you can hear people. It reads almost like an application

1347
01:27:22,360 --> 01:27:27,719
Speaker 2: for a grant from a foundation. It's all in the head.

1348
01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:29,960
Speaker 2: I like it when it comes from the heart. It

1349
01:27:30,040 --> 01:27:34,599
Speaker 2: doesn't matter jazz or blues or anything. You know, any

1350
01:27:34,640 --> 01:27:37,880
Speaker 2: kind of music you want some well, at least I

1351
01:27:38,200 --> 01:27:44,880
Speaker 2: favor the non acrobatic, soulful, oh types of expression.

1352
01:27:46,200 --> 01:27:50,720
Speaker 1: Okay, what do we say to the people who know

1353
01:27:50,880 --> 01:27:54,920
Speaker 1: nothing but say jazz is discordant?

1354
01:27:55,600 --> 01:27:59,000
Speaker 2: When you're playing something else. When I first started Blue Notte,

1355
01:27:59,000 --> 01:28:03,679
Speaker 2: we started, we did some some research. We have focus

1356
01:28:03,720 --> 01:28:06,559
Speaker 2: groups come in of people, just every type of person.

1357
01:28:07,000 --> 01:28:09,599
Speaker 2: And what do you think of jazz? I hate jazz man,

1358
01:28:09,640 --> 01:28:13,400
Speaker 2: it's all discord It's terrible, all right, I understand that.

1359
01:28:13,600 --> 01:28:18,240
Speaker 2: Then we put on a Sidewinder by Lee Morgan. I say, oh,

1360
01:28:18,280 --> 01:28:22,720
Speaker 2: I love that. What do you call that music? If

1361
01:28:22,720 --> 01:28:26,720
Speaker 2: someone says it's all discordant, I don't dig it. I said, well,

1362
01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:29,840
Speaker 2: you're not listening to the right stuff. You know, it's understandable.

1363
01:28:30,160 --> 01:28:31,800
Speaker 2: How do you find it's hard to find your way in?

1364
01:28:31,840 --> 01:28:35,080
Speaker 2: That's that's That's one of the biggest things we've tried

1365
01:28:35,080 --> 01:28:38,920
Speaker 2: to do that Blue Note is to provide a nice

1366
01:28:38,960 --> 01:28:42,320
Speaker 2: pathway in, you know, to put out a welcome matt

1367
01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:46,599
Speaker 2: and let people come in. And of course it changes too,

1368
01:28:46,720 --> 01:28:50,080
Speaker 2: you know, the times change. When I when I started,

1369
01:28:50,080 --> 01:28:52,679
Speaker 2: the first meeting I had with an artist was with

1370
01:28:53,120 --> 01:28:57,839
Speaker 2: Robert Glasper, who played a very early version, rough mixes

1371
01:28:58,479 --> 01:29:03,439
Speaker 2: of Black Radio. I could tell them already, you know,

1372
01:29:03,560 --> 01:29:06,559
Speaker 2: I'd heard other people. Roy Hargrove was experimenting with hip

1373
01:29:06,600 --> 01:29:10,479
Speaker 2: hop ten years before that, but no one had quite

1374
01:29:10,479 --> 01:29:17,120
Speaker 2: put it together the way Robert did, and I was transfixed.

1375
01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:21,240
Speaker 2: I never heard anything like it, but I knew it

1376
01:29:21,240 --> 01:29:25,519
Speaker 2: would speak to a whole other generation of people, because

1377
01:29:26,520 --> 01:29:32,920
Speaker 2: the best jazz musicians take everything that they've absorbed and

1378
01:29:32,920 --> 01:29:38,639
Speaker 2: and incorporate that into the flow of their music. So Robert,

1379
01:29:39,439 --> 01:29:41,840
Speaker 2: you know, certainly that he grew up, you know, when

1380
01:29:41,920 --> 01:29:44,720
Speaker 2: hip hop music was popular, so that that's part of

1381
01:29:44,760 --> 01:29:49,000
Speaker 2: his thing. But here, I've heard him quote McDonald's commercials.

1382
01:29:49,200 --> 01:29:53,439
Speaker 2: I've heard him quote Bonnie Rait records. I've heard him

1383
01:29:53,600 --> 01:29:57,839
Speaker 2: quote Bruce Hornsby. Uh, you know, he's we're all musicians.

1384
01:29:57,920 --> 01:30:00,800
Speaker 2: You're you're you are the sum total of what you

1385
01:30:01,240 --> 01:30:05,639
Speaker 2: absorb in life and what you've listened to, and if

1386
01:30:05,640 --> 01:30:09,240
Speaker 2: you don't keep updating what you do to reflect who

1387
01:30:09,280 --> 01:30:13,839
Speaker 2: you are in that moment, then you're just basically a museum.

1388
01:30:14,680 --> 01:30:16,160
Speaker 2: You don't want to be a museum. That was one

1389
01:30:16,200 --> 01:30:18,519
Speaker 2: of the things when I first started a Blue Note.

1390
01:30:19,800 --> 01:30:22,280
Speaker 2: I wanted to know, why is it music that was

1391
01:30:22,320 --> 01:30:26,479
Speaker 2: recorded fifty sixty years ago relevant today? You know, why

1392
01:30:26,479 --> 01:30:30,240
Speaker 2: does it sound fresh and vibrant today? And what I

1393
01:30:30,280 --> 01:30:34,000
Speaker 2: found was that in every period of the company's existence,

1394
01:30:34,560 --> 01:30:39,720
Speaker 2: they always signed artist who had absorbed the fundamentals of

1395
01:30:39,760 --> 01:30:42,519
Speaker 2: everything that came before him, but then use that knowledge

1396
01:30:42,560 --> 01:30:45,120
Speaker 2: to create something brand new, whether that was The Loneliest

1397
01:30:45,200 --> 01:30:48,360
Speaker 2: Monk in the forties, or Art Blakey and Horace silver

1398
01:30:48,439 --> 01:30:51,320
Speaker 2: Invent and Hard Bob in the fifties, or Wayne Shorter,

1399
01:30:51,560 --> 01:30:55,360
Speaker 2: Herbie Hancock or Ntte Coleman, Eric Dolphie in the sixties,

1400
01:30:55,520 --> 01:31:01,960
Speaker 2: or glassper in two thousand and eleven. You have to

1401
01:31:03,080 --> 01:31:07,200
Speaker 2: it's got to be self expression, not you just copying

1402
01:31:07,920 --> 01:31:09,440
Speaker 2: someone else's self expression.

1403
01:31:11,520 --> 01:31:15,719
Speaker 1: Okay, let's just stay on that topic for a minute, people,

1404
01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:19,160
Speaker 1: Let's just talk rock music for a minutes. Yesha, very rare,

1405
01:31:19,640 --> 01:31:23,519
Speaker 1: extremely rare for someone to create something unlest we're talking

1406
01:31:23,520 --> 01:31:27,320
Speaker 1: about Bonnie Raid of the quality of their initial period

1407
01:31:27,680 --> 01:31:32,960
Speaker 1: decades later, especially today with recording revenues for most of

1408
01:31:33,000 --> 01:31:36,439
Speaker 1: these acts small. They make the money on the road,

1409
01:31:36,439 --> 01:31:38,720
Speaker 1: and the people want to wear, they hear, they hits.

1410
01:31:38,720 --> 01:31:41,120
Speaker 1: There's an occasional being like the Doobie Brothers puts out

1411
01:31:41,120 --> 01:31:45,000
Speaker 1: a record every couple of years, but most acts have stopped. Okay,

1412
01:31:46,560 --> 01:31:50,639
Speaker 1: do you think you're a record producer, Do you think

1413
01:31:50,680 --> 01:31:53,200
Speaker 1: it's a state of mind that you got them in

1414
01:31:53,240 --> 01:31:56,040
Speaker 1: the studio and you get two hundred thousand dollars, you

1415
01:31:56,040 --> 01:31:59,280
Speaker 1: can make something as good as they made in their

1416
01:31:59,400 --> 01:32:03,479
Speaker 1: legendary era. Is something in that quality or is it

1417
01:32:03,720 --> 01:32:07,840
Speaker 1: spent whatever headspace they were in, whatever that ship sailed.

1418
01:32:08,760 --> 01:32:12,360
Speaker 2: I don't think that there's like a singular cutoff point

1419
01:32:12,600 --> 01:32:15,880
Speaker 2: at which point you're doomed to just repeat what you

1420
01:32:15,920 --> 01:32:21,759
Speaker 2: did in your glory years. The artists that I admire

1421
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:28,479
Speaker 2: most have it's it's cicular, you know, cyclical that you

1422
01:32:28,640 --> 01:32:33,120
Speaker 2: ride these waves of you're inspired. You ride a wave

1423
01:32:33,240 --> 01:32:39,240
Speaker 2: of an inspired time, and then then the trough of

1424
01:32:39,240 --> 01:32:42,040
Speaker 2: the waves when you're not inspired, and if you stay

1425
01:32:42,040 --> 01:32:45,360
Speaker 2: in it for forty fifty years, you get a couple

1426
01:32:45,360 --> 01:32:46,360
Speaker 2: of crests.

1427
01:32:47,479 --> 01:32:49,200
Speaker 1: Well, well, let's put it out differently.

1428
01:32:49,240 --> 01:32:49,519
Speaker 2: Okay.

1429
01:32:49,640 --> 01:32:52,040
Speaker 1: Certainly, if you were a rock fan and you're buying

1430
01:32:52,120 --> 01:32:55,320
Speaker 1: records in the sixties, the interest leaves would have pictures

1431
01:32:55,320 --> 01:32:59,160
Speaker 1: of every album that whatever you bought Atlantic records, there

1432
01:32:59,160 --> 01:33:02,240
Speaker 1: were a lot of jobs, less McCann whatever. What do

1433
01:33:02,320 --> 01:33:06,280
Speaker 1: we know? Those records were never million sellers. This was

1434
01:33:06,320 --> 01:33:09,599
Speaker 1: a business. We like your music, we're making a record.

1435
01:33:09,640 --> 01:33:11,840
Speaker 1: We're not going to lose money because then we're going

1436
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:15,479
Speaker 1: to stop. So when you're making records at Blue Note today,

1437
01:33:15,640 --> 01:33:19,719
Speaker 1: is that pretty much the goal we're documenting. These people

1438
01:33:19,760 --> 01:33:23,960
Speaker 1: are artists. We are not even looking at you know,

1439
01:33:24,000 --> 01:33:27,640
Speaker 1: the Spotify top fifty whatever in that. This is the

1440
01:33:27,680 --> 01:33:28,400
Speaker 1: modern world.

1441
01:33:33,600 --> 01:33:37,599
Speaker 2: I see albums. I still make albums, still believe in

1442
01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:41,040
Speaker 2: the album is a statement, but I see it I

1443
01:33:41,160 --> 01:33:47,519
Speaker 2: seem as postcards. You know, hey, Bo'm in Minnesota today. Man,

1444
01:33:47,600 --> 01:33:50,880
Speaker 2: it's great here heading to you know, we'll be in

1445
01:33:50,880 --> 01:33:55,800
Speaker 2: Saint Louis tomorrow night. Just dropping the mailbox picture. You're

1446
01:33:55,800 --> 01:34:00,679
Speaker 2: standing by the Paul Bunyan statue, right right right. That's

1447
01:34:00,720 --> 01:34:02,479
Speaker 2: what the albums are. This is where I am at

1448
01:34:02,520 --> 01:34:07,440
Speaker 2: this moment in my life.

1449
01:34:11,800 --> 01:34:15,439
Speaker 1: Well, this is very different from the pre Internet era,

1450
01:34:16,520 --> 01:34:19,639
Speaker 1: where the goal was to sell tonnage on every record

1451
01:34:19,640 --> 01:34:20,519
Speaker 1: on a major label.

1452
01:34:20,520 --> 01:34:26,640
Speaker 2: Ony. Yeah, well, I believe the best business plan is

1453
01:34:26,680 --> 01:34:31,000
Speaker 2: to make great records. If you make great records, you'll

1454
01:34:32,880 --> 01:34:35,240
Speaker 2: the revenue will find you.

1455
01:34:35,600 --> 01:34:37,880
Speaker 1: Okay, Blue Note, how many records you put out a year?

1456
01:34:38,840 --> 01:34:44,519
Speaker 2: We do around twenty Frontline albums, and last year we

1457
01:34:44,600 --> 01:34:50,760
Speaker 2: did fifty high quality audio, file quality vinyl reissues of.

1458
01:34:50,680 --> 01:34:54,439
Speaker 1: The catalog Frontline product. What's the budget for one of

1459
01:34:54,439 --> 01:34:55,200
Speaker 1: those records.

1460
01:34:55,200 --> 01:34:57,640
Speaker 2: It depends, could be Norah Jones, or it could be

1461
01:34:57,680 --> 01:35:00,400
Speaker 2: if it's a new jazz artist, it might be fifteen

1462
01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:04,320
Speaker 2: thousand dollars. Okay, how'd you get this gig?

1463
01:35:07,760 --> 01:35:08,439
Speaker 1: Good question.

1464
01:35:08,920 --> 01:35:11,040
Speaker 2: I was in New York City. I was producing a

1465
01:35:11,120 --> 01:35:16,320
Speaker 2: John Mayer record. Born and Raised twenty eleven, were recording

1466
01:35:16,439 --> 01:35:20,240
Speaker 2: an Electric Lady, and we took a night off. So

1467
01:35:21,320 --> 01:35:23,599
Speaker 2: I looked in the village voice just thought, oh God,

1468
01:35:23,680 --> 01:35:26,280
Speaker 2: and here's some music clear my head. And I saw

1469
01:35:26,320 --> 01:35:29,360
Speaker 2: that an artist named Gregory Porter was appearing at a

1470
01:35:29,360 --> 01:35:33,800
Speaker 2: little club called Smoke Up near Harlem. And I'd heard

1471
01:35:33,840 --> 01:35:39,040
Speaker 2: Gregory on the local jazz station, and I was blown away.

1472
01:35:39,040 --> 01:35:40,920
Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about him, but I heard a

1473
01:35:40,960 --> 01:35:43,559
Speaker 2: song called Illusion that he put out on a little

1474
01:35:43,560 --> 01:35:49,120
Speaker 2: independent label called Motima. I thought, man, you wrote this song,

1475
01:35:49,600 --> 01:35:53,240
Speaker 2: and he just sings it so beautifully, which is great poetry.

1476
01:35:53,240 --> 01:35:56,479
Speaker 2: And listen to his voice. Man. So I was thrilled

1477
01:35:56,479 --> 01:35:57,840
Speaker 2: to see that he was there. I didn't know anything

1478
01:35:57,840 --> 01:35:59,639
Speaker 2: about him, so I went up to catch a show

1479
01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:03,880
Speaker 2: there for three sets. Wasn't there on business. I just

1480
01:36:03,960 --> 01:36:08,040
Speaker 2: drank coffee, ate ribs and enjoyed all three sets. The

1481
01:36:08,080 --> 01:36:11,519
Speaker 2: next morning, I had breakfast with an old buddy of mine,

1482
01:36:11,560 --> 01:36:14,800
Speaker 2: guy named Dan McCarroll. I knew Dan when he was

1483
01:36:14,840 --> 01:36:18,320
Speaker 2: a Sheryl Crow's drummer, played Lloyd Cole Emotions, and he

1484
01:36:18,400 --> 01:36:21,519
Speaker 2: was married to Jane Oppenheimer, who was my assistant in

1485
01:36:21,560 --> 01:36:24,360
Speaker 2: the nineties, and that's when Dan came into the picture.

1486
01:36:24,400 --> 01:36:30,519
Speaker 2: I met him then, but over the years, his savvy

1487
01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:36,479
Speaker 2: as a musician of taste had gotten him to the

1488
01:36:36,520 --> 01:36:40,000
Speaker 2: point where he'd become the president of Capitol Records. And

1489
01:36:40,400 --> 01:36:44,200
Speaker 2: we weren't even talking about the music business, records or anything.

1490
01:36:44,240 --> 01:36:47,320
Speaker 2: But at the end of the breakfast, I said to him,

1491
01:36:47,960 --> 01:36:51,439
Speaker 2: Blue Not it's still a part of Capitol, right, you

1492
01:36:51,640 --> 01:36:54,879
Speaker 2: really should sign this guy. I saw last night Greg Reporter.

1493
01:36:56,479 --> 01:37:00,280
Speaker 2: He's quiet for about ten seconds. He said, now you

1494
01:37:00,320 --> 01:37:04,000
Speaker 2: should sign him. And completely unbeknownst to me, I don't

1495
01:37:04,000 --> 01:37:06,479
Speaker 2: know anything about the inner workings of Blue Note at

1496
01:37:06,479 --> 01:37:09,599
Speaker 2: that point. But Bruce Lonval, who'd run the company for

1497
01:37:09,680 --> 01:37:13,400
Speaker 2: thirty years, one of the great recordmen of all time,

1498
01:37:13,680 --> 01:37:18,680
Speaker 2: maybe one of maybe the most beloved executive among musicians.

1499
01:37:18,680 --> 01:37:23,840
Speaker 2: Even Bruce was ill. He had Parkinson's and he wasn't

1500
01:37:23,840 --> 01:37:26,559
Speaker 2: going to be able to continue, and they were looking

1501
01:37:26,640 --> 01:37:32,000
Speaker 2: for someone who could, who had an understanding of the

1502
01:37:32,040 --> 01:37:37,160
Speaker 2: ethos of Blue Note Records, but would continue to move

1503
01:37:37,200 --> 01:37:42,040
Speaker 2: it forward, not just remake the old nineteen sixties records.

1504
01:37:42,560 --> 01:37:46,360
Speaker 2: So he offered me the gig. And and my goal

1505
01:37:46,560 --> 01:37:49,640
Speaker 2: in life had been to not have a job or

1506
01:37:49,800 --> 01:37:51,519
Speaker 2: something that I considered to be a job. I never

1507
01:37:51,560 --> 01:37:54,720
Speaker 2: thought a guitar player or being in a band or

1508
01:37:54,760 --> 01:37:59,400
Speaker 2: making records as work. You know, it was fun. This

1509
01:38:00,120 --> 01:38:03,880
Speaker 2: is going to be something. Plus, I also knew that

1510
01:38:03,960 --> 01:38:06,200
Speaker 2: I was going to have to learn to understand a

1511
01:38:06,240 --> 01:38:10,200
Speaker 2: profit and loss statement. I never used excel.

1512
01:38:12,000 --> 01:38:13,799
Speaker 1: I haven't used it to this day, okay.

1513
01:38:14,320 --> 01:38:18,200
Speaker 2: And so I also know that you have a finite

1514
01:38:18,320 --> 01:38:23,040
Speaker 2: number of synoptic pathways that you can keep open at

1515
01:38:23,040 --> 01:38:26,599
Speaker 2: any given time, and when you don't use them, you

1516
01:38:26,640 --> 01:38:28,920
Speaker 2: shut them down to make room for the things you're

1517
01:38:28,960 --> 01:38:32,679
Speaker 2: currently using. So I thought, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna.

1518
01:38:32,800 --> 01:38:35,240
Speaker 2: I may learn how to do this, but I may

1519
01:38:35,280 --> 01:38:43,280
Speaker 2: never write a song. I can live with that. It

1520
01:38:43,360 --> 01:38:45,960
Speaker 2: seemed like a high high adventure to try to learn,

1521
01:38:46,160 --> 01:38:48,680
Speaker 2: but I was woefully unprepared. I don't know anything.

1522
01:38:48,439 --> 01:38:50,760
Speaker 1: About okay, but you know, it's not like the old

1523
01:38:50,880 --> 01:38:55,360
Speaker 1: days where it labels. Every five years, it would be turnover,

1524
01:38:55,600 --> 01:38:58,880
Speaker 1: get a new president. They wipe everybody out. You've had

1525
01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:03,240
Speaker 1: this gig for a long time. I would assume you

1526
01:39:03,280 --> 01:39:06,200
Speaker 1: don't listen. Everyone likes to get paid. But I assume

1527
01:39:06,240 --> 01:39:07,200
Speaker 1: you don't need the money.

1528
01:39:08,080 --> 01:39:08,840
Speaker 2: I don't need the Braain.

1529
01:39:10,640 --> 01:39:14,240
Speaker 1: Do you actually have an office? Do you actually go in?

1530
01:39:14,880 --> 01:39:16,240
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1531
01:39:16,280 --> 01:39:19,479
Speaker 1: Well, all I know is you're always out on the

1532
01:39:19,560 --> 01:39:20,560
Speaker 1: road with somebody.

1533
01:39:20,680 --> 01:39:26,160
Speaker 2: Well I learned, Well, here's the deal. OK. It took

1534
01:39:26,240 --> 01:39:32,360
Speaker 2: about five years to figure out how to do the

1535
01:39:32,479 --> 01:39:36,200
Speaker 2: job as myself. I couldn't be Bruce Man. Bruce was

1536
01:39:36,240 --> 01:39:39,080
Speaker 2: so good. If you wrote him an email, if you

1537
01:39:39,120 --> 01:39:42,120
Speaker 2: send him an email, he'd answer you within like thirty seconds.

1538
01:39:42,160 --> 01:39:45,120
Speaker 2: You'd get a reply. He always returned calls. He could

1539
01:39:45,120 --> 01:39:50,760
Speaker 2: do all these things. Now we have a living refutation

1540
01:39:50,920 --> 01:39:54,200
Speaker 2: of astrology, Bruce and myself, because we have the same birthday,

1541
01:39:54,240 --> 01:39:55,360
Speaker 2: September thirteenth.

1542
01:39:55,760 --> 01:39:59,560
Speaker 1: He was a time out timeout you believe in astrology.

1543
01:40:00,400 --> 01:40:07,920
Speaker 2: No, we refuted astrology because we are so different. But

1544
01:40:08,120 --> 01:40:13,200
Speaker 2: we were really different. And they were huge footprints, you know,

1545
01:40:13,240 --> 01:40:23,200
Speaker 2: to walk in possible to fill the shoes. But I

1546
01:40:23,240 --> 01:40:26,439
Speaker 2: couldn't be him, he couldn't be me. So how can

1547
01:40:26,479 --> 01:40:29,360
Speaker 2: I be myself and do this? And that may not

1548
01:40:29,439 --> 01:40:34,800
Speaker 2: be going into an office and sitting there and you know,

1549
01:40:35,360 --> 01:40:37,320
Speaker 2: just sitting there on the phone punching in and out

1550
01:40:37,439 --> 01:40:40,760
Speaker 2: from eight in the morning to five or whatever. That

1551
01:40:40,439 --> 01:40:44,080
Speaker 2: that wasn't my style. I found a style, do it?

1552
01:40:44,880 --> 01:40:47,720
Speaker 2: So what is the style? Get out in the world, man,

1553
01:40:47,880 --> 01:40:56,880
Speaker 2: and and and keep making music because someone's got to understand.

1554
01:40:57,640 --> 01:41:02,400
Speaker 2: But the artists are really going through someone's got to

1555
01:41:02,479 --> 01:41:05,439
Speaker 2: understand it. It's a it's a different mentality. You start

1556
01:41:05,439 --> 01:41:08,599
Speaker 2: talking to an artist about a deadline. We need we need,

1557
01:41:08,680 --> 01:41:10,960
Speaker 2: we need the credits handed in by October twenty eighth

1558
01:41:11,000 --> 01:41:14,559
Speaker 2: and the photos done by the November two. That just

1559
01:41:14,560 --> 01:41:16,680
Speaker 2: goes in one ear and out the other. Especially if

1560
01:41:16,720 --> 01:41:22,559
Speaker 2: someone's trying to portray life in the recording studio at

1561
01:41:22,560 --> 01:41:24,040
Speaker 2: the same time that you got to be in a

1562
01:41:24,080 --> 01:41:28,560
Speaker 2: completely different headspace. Someone's got to understand that that headspace.

1563
01:41:28,920 --> 01:41:33,640
Speaker 2: Someone's got to understand the relationship with the audience. You know,

1564
01:41:33,640 --> 01:41:36,880
Speaker 2: you're if you're running a business of getting music to

1565
01:41:36,920 --> 01:41:40,640
Speaker 2: an audience, you got to understand what the relationship is

1566
01:41:40,680 --> 01:41:45,280
Speaker 2: between musicians and the audience. Going out and tour with

1567
01:41:45,400 --> 01:41:49,439
Speaker 2: Bob We're was the best thing I ever did for

1568
01:41:49,520 --> 01:41:53,880
Speaker 2: Blue Note Records, because that's that you go in there

1569
01:41:53,960 --> 01:41:59,479
Speaker 2: night after night, the grateful that audience is such a

1570
01:41:59,600 --> 01:42:04,800
Speaker 2: great audience. Man, they're so tuned in man, sometimes with

1571
01:42:04,880 --> 01:42:11,160
Speaker 2: a little help, sometimes just on their own. But there's

1572
01:42:11,200 --> 01:42:16,280
Speaker 2: a real psychic connection between everybody in the room and

1573
01:42:17,320 --> 01:42:24,120
Speaker 2: between the band and the audience. We never play anything

1574
01:42:24,120 --> 01:42:27,479
Speaker 2: the same way twice. That's the wond room or whatever

1575
01:42:27,479 --> 01:42:29,400
Speaker 2: you played last night, don't do it because it's not

1576
01:42:29,400 --> 01:42:31,000
Speaker 2: going to work tonight. Everyone else is going to be

1577
01:42:31,040 --> 01:42:33,439
Speaker 2: in a different place. So just start fresh every night.

1578
01:42:34,439 --> 01:42:37,639
Speaker 2: And there will be some failures. There'll be some real

1579
01:42:37,880 --> 01:42:40,599
Speaker 2: train wrecks in the band. A song may fall apart.

1580
01:42:41,680 --> 01:42:45,200
Speaker 2: Audience doesn't mind that as long as you were doing

1581
01:42:45,200 --> 01:42:47,880
Speaker 2: it in the service of trying to achieve something great.

1582
01:42:48,040 --> 01:42:52,439
Speaker 2: And a couple times a night we will connect with

1583
01:42:52,560 --> 01:42:55,439
Speaker 2: the audience and you get this energy. You can feel

1584
01:42:55,439 --> 01:42:59,439
Speaker 2: it flowing from the stage into the audience and you

1585
01:42:59,800 --> 01:43:02,680
Speaker 2: can feel and see them responding to it, and it

1586
01:43:02,680 --> 01:43:05,480
Speaker 2: comes back to you and it becomes cyclical. It elevates

1587
01:43:05,520 --> 01:43:07,960
Speaker 2: the game and you can blow the rough off the

1588
01:43:07,960 --> 01:43:11,519
Speaker 2: motherfucker like that, you know, And and I don't know

1589
01:43:11,800 --> 01:43:15,519
Speaker 2: anything that's more exhilarating than that feeling when it's happening.

1590
01:43:17,400 --> 01:43:21,679
Speaker 2: And record companies need to understand that and that and

1591
01:43:21,760 --> 01:43:24,640
Speaker 2: that that's the kind of relationship you're They're not just

1592
01:43:25,600 --> 01:43:29,919
Speaker 2: you know, it's not like you're selling horn flakes to somebody.

1593
01:43:29,960 --> 01:43:33,080
Speaker 2: You know, this is you're dealing with high levels of

1594
01:43:33,240 --> 01:43:40,760
Speaker 2: consciousness and and and you're impacting people on uh, some

1595
01:43:40,920 --> 01:43:45,120
Speaker 2: really deep levels. And you got to understand that.

1596
01:43:45,880 --> 01:43:50,280
Speaker 1: Okay, how much administrative work do you do.

1597
01:43:52,439 --> 01:43:52,719
Speaker 2: Enough?

1598
01:43:53,520 --> 01:43:56,120
Speaker 1: Okay, you're on the you're on the road with Bob Weird.

1599
01:43:56,920 --> 01:44:00,280
Speaker 1: You know you're only on stage a very small portion

1600
01:44:00,439 --> 01:44:03,840
Speaker 1: of the day. Are you working on Blue Note every day?

1601
01:44:03,960 --> 01:44:06,280
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Man? You know I'm up at eight o'clock in

1602
01:44:06,360 --> 01:44:11,160
Speaker 2: the morning on calls. And also you know, if you

1603
01:44:11,160 --> 01:44:13,280
Speaker 2: you know how people you put the names on the

1604
01:44:13,360 --> 01:44:19,439
Speaker 2: dressing rooms right mine's they's a Blue Note World headquarters.

1605
01:44:19,040 --> 01:44:22,000
Speaker 2: We're just a full time gig. Man. I go to

1606
01:44:22,040 --> 01:44:25,559
Speaker 2: bed thinking about it. I'm talking to the musicians. I

1607
01:44:25,600 --> 01:44:28,400
Speaker 2: can have better conversations with the musicians because I'm playing

1608
01:44:28,400 --> 01:44:29,639
Speaker 2: improvisational music.

1609
01:44:31,040 --> 01:44:34,920
Speaker 1: I'm not like, Okay, you're out with Bob Weir, but

1610
01:44:34,960 --> 01:44:38,240
Speaker 1: you're out all the fucking time. You're out with a band,

1611
01:44:38,600 --> 01:44:41,519
Speaker 1: you Last Waltz Tour, it seems like you're working all

1612
01:44:41,560 --> 01:44:41,960
Speaker 1: the time.

1613
01:44:42,120 --> 01:44:45,200
Speaker 2: It just seems that way. You don't see every day

1614
01:44:46,760 --> 01:44:47,200
Speaker 2: I'm there.

1615
01:44:47,640 --> 01:44:52,559
Speaker 1: Well, no, I'm not justifying your work, and I'm more

1616
01:44:52,760 --> 01:44:56,400
Speaker 1: interested in what is driving you to go on the road.

1617
01:44:57,720 --> 01:45:00,439
Speaker 1: It's got to be more than you know. Gives me

1618
01:45:00,520 --> 01:45:05,040
Speaker 1: insight and not every and you know, the electricity talk

1619
01:45:05,080 --> 01:45:08,280
Speaker 1: about a moment with the dead is different from a

1620
01:45:08,360 --> 01:45:12,400
Speaker 1: regular concert that is not improvisational. Not that the audience

1621
01:45:12,439 --> 01:45:15,799
Speaker 1: can't connect to a certain degree. There must be somebody,

1622
01:45:16,200 --> 01:45:20,400
Speaker 1: you know, is this type of thing where okay a month, okay, okay,

1623
01:45:20,400 --> 01:45:22,559
Speaker 1: I'll do it, or you really want to go on

1624
01:45:22,600 --> 01:45:22,960
Speaker 1: the road.

1625
01:45:23,280 --> 01:45:26,680
Speaker 2: I love I love play. But here I'll give you

1626
01:45:26,720 --> 01:45:30,040
Speaker 2: an example this because this isn't like a grateful dead

1627
01:45:30,040 --> 01:45:33,400
Speaker 2: improvisational thing. When you mentioned the Last Waltz Tour, which

1628
01:45:33,439 --> 01:45:36,280
Speaker 2: we do heavy so often with Warren Haynes and Jamie

1629
01:45:36,360 --> 01:45:41,479
Speaker 2: Johnson and John Medeski and a rotating cast to other

1630
01:45:41,680 --> 01:45:49,599
Speaker 2: characters too. One year I was positioned behind Warren Samp

1631
01:45:50,280 --> 01:45:53,040
Speaker 2: clocked it in at about one hundred and thirteen decibels.

1632
01:45:53,040 --> 01:45:55,719
Speaker 2: The sound coming out of it had the back cover off,

1633
01:45:56,000 --> 01:46:02,080
Speaker 2: and it was just hurt in my ears and I

1634
01:46:02,080 --> 01:46:04,800
Speaker 2: don't like to use in yours. I want to be

1635
01:46:05,120 --> 01:46:09,240
Speaker 2: in the thing. But it was really loud. We got

1636
01:46:09,240 --> 01:46:12,479
Speaker 2: to I should be Released, which was like kind of

1637
01:46:12,479 --> 01:46:16,479
Speaker 2: a climactic moment in the show, and I look at

1638
01:46:16,479 --> 01:46:20,240
Speaker 2: this audience. We're playing theaters twenty five hundred, three thousand

1639
01:46:20,240 --> 01:46:23,880
Speaker 2: people every night, and we light it up a little

1640
01:46:23,880 --> 01:46:26,120
Speaker 2: bit in it. You see everybody standing up, you see

1641
01:46:26,160 --> 01:46:30,400
Speaker 2: people crying, hugging each other. That song means so much

1642
01:46:30,439 --> 01:46:32,799
Speaker 2: to him. It's such a great song. I should be released.

1643
01:46:32,800 --> 01:46:36,439
Speaker 2: I mean something different to everybody. Everybody, but everybody's got

1644
01:46:36,439 --> 01:46:42,040
Speaker 2: something that they need to be released from. And I thought,

1645
01:46:42,080 --> 01:46:44,400
Speaker 2: all right, man, if I got to damage my hearing,

1646
01:46:44,600 --> 01:46:46,800
Speaker 2: I can't think of a better way to do it

1647
01:46:46,880 --> 01:46:50,599
Speaker 2: than bringing this kind of feeling to three thousand people tonight.

1648
01:46:50,800 --> 01:46:55,639
Speaker 2: If I'm I'm willing to lose my hearing this, how

1649
01:46:55,800 --> 01:46:57,000
Speaker 2: is your hearing? It's good?

1650
01:46:59,360 --> 01:47:05,240
Speaker 1: Get older? Yeah, okay, I'm gonna jump. What was going

1651
01:47:05,280 --> 01:47:07,240
Speaker 1: through your mind? And how did you make cap in

1652
01:47:07,400 --> 01:47:08,799
Speaker 1: the Brian Wilson movie.

1653
01:47:10,640 --> 01:47:14,640
Speaker 2: I was producing my old school buddy Doug Figer in

1654
01:47:14,680 --> 01:47:17,599
Speaker 2: his group The Knack right around the corner from here.

1655
01:47:17,680 --> 01:47:26,639
Speaker 2: In fact, and Doug and Burton Averar the guitar player,

1656
01:47:27,080 --> 01:47:31,639
Speaker 2: had laid the Smile bootlegs on me. I was unaware

1657
01:47:31,800 --> 01:47:33,840
Speaker 2: of I knew about it, but I didn't really know

1658
01:47:33,920 --> 01:47:38,120
Speaker 2: the story. Holy cow, man, I got so deep into

1659
01:47:38,160 --> 01:47:41,760
Speaker 2: listening to these things it just blew me away. And

1660
01:47:41,760 --> 01:47:45,720
Speaker 2: then the mystique about them being unfinished and fragmented like that,

1661
01:47:47,840 --> 01:47:50,200
Speaker 2: probably to the detriment of the Knack record. That's all

1662
01:47:50,240 --> 01:47:54,240
Speaker 2: I was listening to. And sometime we were still making

1663
01:47:54,240 --> 01:47:57,760
Speaker 2: the record, I got invited to remember it was Red

1664
01:47:57,800 --> 01:47:59,920
Speaker 2: Hot and Blue. Was that with this album? Are Gone

1665
01:48:00,400 --> 01:48:04,599
Speaker 2: Pediatric Aids or AIDS benefit? Yeah? Yeah, So Elizabeth Taylor

1666
01:48:04,760 --> 01:48:12,760
Speaker 2: was hosting a party. I thought, well to Jim, and

1667
01:48:12,760 --> 01:48:18,840
Speaker 2: I went and I get into theffet line. There is

1668
01:48:18,880 --> 01:48:21,720
Speaker 2: Brian Wilson and doctor Landy standing right next to me,

1669
01:48:22,800 --> 01:48:26,200
Speaker 2: so I couldn't contain myself. I was so steeped in

1670
01:48:26,320 --> 01:48:28,880
Speaker 2: all of his music at that point, and I was

1671
01:48:29,000 --> 01:48:36,200
Speaker 2: just rantic about how brilliant it was, and I think

1672
01:48:36,240 --> 01:48:37,400
Speaker 2: he appreciated it. The invite.

1673
01:48:37,400 --> 01:48:42,120
Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait, I've had my interactions with Brian from

1674
01:48:42,160 --> 01:48:45,240
Speaker 1: going back forty years to more recent stuff on the

1675
01:48:45,280 --> 01:48:49,480
Speaker 1: bus whatever. It's not a regular conversation.

1676
01:48:49,880 --> 01:48:50,479
Speaker 2: No, it's not.

1677
01:48:50,600 --> 01:48:56,280
Speaker 1: So you testify. When you testify to the average household

1678
01:48:56,360 --> 01:48:59,000
Speaker 1: name musician, yeah, most of them just say thank you.

1679
01:49:00,560 --> 01:49:02,760
Speaker 1: That's not the way to connect with people and say

1680
01:49:02,760 --> 01:49:04,720
Speaker 1: you know that's not you. But you can't hold back

1681
01:49:05,000 --> 01:49:07,960
Speaker 1: at certain points. But occasionally get someone and.

1682
01:49:07,880 --> 01:49:09,680
Speaker 2: Said oh yeah, blah blah blah.

1683
01:49:09,720 --> 01:49:15,000
Speaker 1: So normally Brian most of the time blank, other times

1684
01:49:15,040 --> 01:49:18,760
Speaker 1: sort of enthusiastic, over amped. I mean, what was his

1685
01:49:18,840 --> 01:49:21,440
Speaker 1: reaction to you testify?

1686
01:49:22,520 --> 01:49:26,800
Speaker 2: I think it meant something to him that someone had

1687
01:49:26,840 --> 01:49:29,640
Speaker 2: listened that closely and heard what he was trying to do.

1688
01:49:29,920 --> 01:49:31,960
Speaker 1: So you were talking about the smile, that's.

1689
01:49:31,760 --> 01:49:35,800
Speaker 2: How much smile stuff and being very specific in my references,

1690
01:49:35,800 --> 01:49:38,759
Speaker 2: more specific than I could be today. I was steeped

1691
01:49:38,760 --> 01:49:45,519
Speaker 2: in it, and I guess I heard what he was

1692
01:49:46,080 --> 01:49:54,040
Speaker 2: going for and it meant something to him, and just

1693
01:49:55,560 --> 01:49:58,439
Speaker 2: you know, finish your shrimp and you come come to

1694
01:49:58,439 --> 01:50:03,559
Speaker 2: the studios. So they invited me to the studio. I

1695
01:50:03,640 --> 01:50:06,360
Speaker 2: went over there and we became pretty friendly.

1696
01:50:06,600 --> 01:50:08,240
Speaker 1: Do you have any idea who you were when he

1697
01:50:08,320 --> 01:50:08,560
Speaker 1: met you?

1698
01:50:08,920 --> 01:50:17,879
Speaker 2: I don't know, but yeah, he knew I was a producer.

1699
01:50:17,880 --> 01:50:20,960
Speaker 2: I guess yeah. But we became friendly and then I

1700
01:50:21,200 --> 01:50:24,960
Speaker 2: played some gigs with him, would just be me and him.

1701
01:50:25,200 --> 01:50:28,160
Speaker 2: He played piano and sing. I played bass. It just

1702
01:50:28,200 --> 01:50:32,840
Speaker 2: one off charity things. One Sunday we played something. It

1703
01:50:32,920 --> 01:50:35,759
Speaker 2: was something for the Elizabeth Glazer Foundation. She was still alive.

1704
01:50:35,800 --> 01:50:40,320
Speaker 2: Then it was somehouse up in Benedic Canyon in place, big,

1705
01:50:40,479 --> 01:50:45,040
Speaker 2: big place for a huge backyard. Ronald Reagan was there,

1706
01:50:46,800 --> 01:50:52,080
Speaker 2: Paul Buls, a bunch of people there, and Brian and

1707
01:50:52,160 --> 01:50:55,360
Speaker 2: Jackson Brown were the entertainment. His families in the afternoon.

1708
01:50:56,960 --> 01:51:02,200
Speaker 2: So Jackson was brilliant. And then then we played and

1709
01:51:03,080 --> 01:51:05,680
Speaker 2: we just made a mess out of California girls. It

1710
01:51:05,760 --> 01:51:08,080
Speaker 2: was terrible, and Brian said to them like, oh man,

1711
01:51:08,120 --> 01:51:10,320
Speaker 2: we really fucked that one up. And then everyone came

1712
01:51:10,400 --> 01:51:14,799
Speaker 2: and got their kids, and then we did some damage

1713
01:51:14,800 --> 01:51:18,479
Speaker 2: to another song, and then we got to Love Mercy,

1714
01:51:18,520 --> 01:51:21,040
Speaker 2: and the sun was going down on the mountain in

1715
01:51:21,080 --> 01:51:23,280
Speaker 2: front of us, so it was just a beautiful scene.

1716
01:51:24,000 --> 01:51:27,720
Speaker 2: And he connected on such a profound level to that

1717
01:51:27,760 --> 01:51:31,080
Speaker 2: song that I think I stopped playing at one point. WHOA,

1718
01:51:32,120 --> 01:51:36,560
Speaker 2: I didn't know he still had that in him, and

1719
01:51:36,600 --> 01:51:40,160
Speaker 2: it was just sublime. Man. It was just a beautiful

1720
01:51:40,280 --> 01:51:44,640
Speaker 2: version of that beautiful song and a beautiful message. And

1721
01:51:44,680 --> 01:51:48,160
Speaker 2: I thought, oh man, people could only see this part

1722
01:51:48,160 --> 01:51:53,559
Speaker 2: of them. So al Teller was running a MCA at

1723
01:51:53,600 --> 01:51:58,479
Speaker 2: the time, and he offered me a label deal. I said,

1724
01:51:58,600 --> 01:52:00,759
Speaker 2: you know, man, I don't do these little pop records.

1725
01:52:00,760 --> 01:52:04,080
Speaker 2: He said, no, no, no, just be yourself. So I signed

1726
01:52:04,160 --> 01:52:11,800
Speaker 2: Chris Christofferson, Felix Cavaliery and then Brian Wilson, and I

1727
01:52:11,880 --> 01:52:14,920
Speaker 2: had first job here is to clean up at this point.

1728
01:52:14,920 --> 01:52:17,000
Speaker 2: Now by the time I'd made a deal with him,

1729
01:52:17,040 --> 01:52:18,800
Speaker 2: by the time we got around to that show, in fact,

1730
01:52:18,840 --> 01:52:23,600
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Glazier's thing Landy was gone. He was an obstacle

1731
01:52:23,680 --> 01:52:34,600
Speaker 2: to progress. And I signed him to signed him to

1732
01:52:34,600 --> 01:52:37,040
Speaker 2: our label, and I thought, the first thing is, let's

1733
01:52:37,080 --> 01:52:41,479
Speaker 2: get all the unsavory stuff, the National Inquirer kind of

1734
01:52:41,880 --> 01:52:44,880
Speaker 2: twenty four hour shrink stuff. Let's get that out of

1735
01:52:44,880 --> 01:52:47,479
Speaker 2: the way. Let's get the focus back on why this

1736
01:52:47,560 --> 01:52:52,800
Speaker 2: is probably the greatest record maker of all times. So

1737
01:52:52,880 --> 01:52:57,559
Speaker 2: I thought, well, let's make a documentary film. And I

1738
01:52:57,560 --> 01:52:59,040
Speaker 2: could see it in my head. I knew what it

1739
01:52:59,080 --> 01:53:01,920
Speaker 2: was supposed to be, and I started taking all these

1740
01:53:01,920 --> 01:53:05,639
Speaker 2: meetings and anyone who's going to kick in money had

1741
01:53:05,680 --> 01:53:10,680
Speaker 2: some opinion about what it should be, and just fucket, man,

1742
01:53:10,680 --> 01:53:13,280
Speaker 2: I'll pay for this myself and I'll direct it. I

1743
01:53:13,320 --> 01:53:15,640
Speaker 2: didn't know anything about directing doctor, but I knew what

1744
01:53:15,800 --> 01:53:18,599
Speaker 2: story to tell, and I was able to surround myself

1745
01:53:18,720 --> 01:53:21,280
Speaker 2: with the great people. I had a lot of help,

1746
01:53:21,760 --> 01:53:26,439
Speaker 2: great DP, great editor, great producer, and we made this

1747
01:53:26,520 --> 01:53:29,000
Speaker 2: little thing that was really supposed to be kind of

1748
01:53:29,000 --> 01:53:32,800
Speaker 2: an infomercial just to change people's minds and get the

1749
01:53:32,840 --> 01:53:38,799
Speaker 2: focus back on. Submitted it to Sundance. I got accepted

1750
01:53:38,800 --> 01:53:42,280
Speaker 2: at Sundance. So now Brian and I we're going to

1751
01:53:42,360 --> 01:53:46,519
Speaker 2: go to Sundance. We'll show the movie and play afterwards.

1752
01:53:48,120 --> 01:53:50,519
Speaker 2: And we got all these offers all of a sudden,

1753
01:53:50,560 --> 01:53:55,160
Speaker 2: I was a documentary director and we were in profit

1754
01:53:55,240 --> 01:53:58,920
Speaker 2: before we started. All the money came back and we

1755
01:53:58,960 --> 01:54:03,200
Speaker 2: made TV deal, some home distribution deals, and it was

1756
01:54:03,200 --> 01:54:07,000
Speaker 2: a nice glimpse into who Brian was. It still holds

1757
01:54:07,080 --> 01:54:09,519
Speaker 2: up to this day. I think is a nice portrait

1758
01:54:09,560 --> 01:54:14,320
Speaker 2: of him. And people got to see him singing his

1759
01:54:14,400 --> 01:54:20,240
Speaker 2: songs with the degree of musicality that he was capable

1760
01:54:20,240 --> 01:54:23,719
Speaker 2: of bringing. To the songs, and it got his confidence

1761
01:54:23,800 --> 01:54:25,760
Speaker 2: up and he started going out on tour after that.

1762
01:54:25,880 --> 01:54:27,320
Speaker 2: I never thought he could get to We made it

1763
01:54:27,360 --> 01:54:29,400
Speaker 2: because I didn't think he could get through a show.

1764
01:54:31,360 --> 01:54:33,480
Speaker 2: But he certainly could, and he went on to do

1765
01:54:33,560 --> 01:54:36,520
Speaker 2: some incredible things that pet sounds to it and smile

1766
01:54:36,600 --> 01:54:37,000
Speaker 2: to it.

1767
01:54:44,360 --> 01:54:48,760
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm a huge Beach Boys fan. I mean gigantic.

1768
01:54:49,040 --> 01:54:50,920
Speaker 1: I tell people all the time. I've been tell him

1769
01:54:50,960 --> 01:54:53,040
Speaker 1: for fifty years to I live in California because of

1770
01:54:53,080 --> 01:54:58,200
Speaker 1: the Beach Boys. There are some very surprising moments, most

1771
01:54:58,240 --> 01:55:02,440
Speaker 1: of them in the seventies. Marcella carl and the Passions

1772
01:55:03,880 --> 01:55:08,040
Speaker 1: not mediocre record. That track is unbelievable. Of course, there's

1773
01:55:08,040 --> 01:55:11,720
Speaker 1: selon Sailor on holland good.

1774
01:55:11,560 --> 01:55:14,680
Speaker 2: Time in on La the Light album.

1775
01:55:15,640 --> 01:55:19,440
Speaker 1: But as he goes back on tour, because you and

1776
01:55:19,480 --> 01:55:21,600
Speaker 1: me both know he sang all the high parts on

1777
01:55:21,760 --> 01:55:26,839
Speaker 1: all those original records, it seemed to me a little

1778
01:55:27,080 --> 01:55:31,720
Speaker 1: bit of the Emperor's new clothes. I saw him many times.

1779
01:55:31,840 --> 01:55:35,480
Speaker 1: Was evolved on a very oblique level with the redoers.

1780
01:55:35,000 --> 01:55:36,320
Speaker 2: Smile, and.

1781
01:55:39,160 --> 01:55:43,919
Speaker 1: His voice was far from perfect. Let's not talk about

1782
01:55:44,040 --> 01:55:48,760
Speaker 1: his psychological state, which always wasn't the best and I

1783
01:55:48,800 --> 01:55:54,240
Speaker 1: had inside information. Did he still really have it those

1784
01:55:54,320 --> 01:55:55,640
Speaker 1: last thirty odd years?

1785
01:55:56,040 --> 01:56:02,600
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, And I remember when we were we were

1786
01:56:02,600 --> 01:56:07,839
Speaker 2: recording something and had a studio full of guys Waddie

1787
01:56:08,360 --> 01:56:11,560
Speaker 2: Ben montench Keltner. We were cutting some song for him

1788
01:56:12,160 --> 01:56:13,960
Speaker 2: and he was sitting at it. He walked in and

1789
01:56:14,040 --> 01:56:16,720
Speaker 2: sat down at the piano, put his head down, and

1790
01:56:16,760 --> 01:56:18,920
Speaker 2: I thought he was asleep, right, But we just kept

1791
01:56:18,960 --> 01:56:23,560
Speaker 2: cutting the song and we get to like the third verse.

1792
01:56:25,040 --> 01:56:27,120
Speaker 2: All of a sudden, we're here in piano and his

1793
01:56:27,280 --> 01:56:31,040
Speaker 2: head still down. I thought he was Gone's bilt man.

1794
01:56:31,400 --> 01:56:36,280
Speaker 2: And he played the most exquisite part, and he obviously

1795
01:56:36,360 --> 01:56:38,280
Speaker 2: was just waiting for that to roll around, and he

1796
01:56:38,400 --> 01:56:45,240
Speaker 2: was just listening and he had that absolutely had that spark.

1797
01:56:45,240 --> 01:56:52,480
Speaker 2: And I'd seen him. There's a group of folks who

1798
01:56:52,680 --> 01:56:55,440
Speaker 2: we used to get together with him some you know,

1799
01:56:55,520 --> 01:56:58,320
Speaker 2: not that long ago, maybe six months ago. We'd have

1800
01:56:58,760 --> 01:57:05,000
Speaker 2: outings at Moose on Frank's and he still has unfinished

1801
01:57:05,240 --> 01:57:09,240
Speaker 2: material that he wanted me to work on, and you know,

1802
01:57:09,480 --> 01:57:14,640
Speaker 2: talked a little bit about that. I think he Yeah,

1803
01:57:14,720 --> 01:57:22,360
Speaker 2: I think he was enigmatic. You never knew how present

1804
01:57:22,640 --> 01:57:25,000
Speaker 2: he was, but he'd always surprise.

1805
01:57:24,680 --> 01:57:29,160
Speaker 1: You Okay, forget you go to sundance. Yeah, that means

1806
01:57:29,160 --> 01:57:31,640
Speaker 1: you've got to spend a good amount of time with

1807
01:57:31,760 --> 01:57:33,000
Speaker 1: him not working.

1808
01:57:33,240 --> 01:57:34,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1809
01:57:34,560 --> 01:57:37,600
Speaker 1: Could you have a conversation like a regular personager?

1810
01:57:38,320 --> 01:57:43,520
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I mean, well there's nothing regular about him. Okay,

1811
01:57:44,480 --> 01:57:48,640
Speaker 2: but could I have a conversation yes, And he lived

1812
01:57:48,680 --> 01:57:53,080
Speaker 2: a really interesting life and you know, remembered everything, even

1813
01:57:53,320 --> 01:57:56,320
Speaker 2: towards the end. He remembered everything from the past and

1814
01:57:56,520 --> 01:58:04,920
Speaker 2: could tell you great stories. And also, sometimes it's just

1815
01:58:05,000 --> 01:58:13,320
Speaker 2: not necessary to make aimless chatter small talk. You know,

1816
01:58:14,520 --> 01:58:18,560
Speaker 2: sometimes you can have an artistic relationship with someone that

1817
01:58:18,760 --> 01:58:19,520
Speaker 2: transcends that.

1818
01:58:22,520 --> 01:58:27,160
Speaker 1: Okay, then let's switch gears back to the Stones. They

1819
01:58:27,240 --> 01:58:32,800
Speaker 1: agreed to make a record. Stones they legendarily would make records.

1820
01:58:32,800 --> 01:58:35,960
Speaker 1: They'd bring in a piece that was recorded years before,

1821
01:58:36,720 --> 01:58:39,560
Speaker 1: they would write the songs in the studio. People did

1822
01:58:39,600 --> 01:58:41,480
Speaker 1: that after, but they were one of the first people.

1823
01:58:42,600 --> 01:58:45,640
Speaker 1: So what is your role. Now, Let's say you're finally

1824
01:58:45,680 --> 01:58:49,520
Speaker 1: working with the Stones. Certainly, as time went on, they

1825
01:58:49,640 --> 01:58:51,280
Speaker 1: made some records that were not as good as the

1826
01:58:51,320 --> 01:58:55,240
Speaker 1: early records. So your goal is to get beyond that.

1827
01:58:56,400 --> 01:58:57,160
Speaker 1: So what do you do?

1828
01:59:00,200 --> 01:59:03,000
Speaker 2: Well, the first thing is just start with songs, which,

1829
01:59:03,040 --> 01:59:05,920
Speaker 2: by the way, is something peculiar to the Rolling Stones.

1830
01:59:05,920 --> 01:59:11,160
Speaker 2: It's for everybody. If you don't have great songs, you're

1831
01:59:11,200 --> 01:59:14,040
Speaker 2: not going to make a great record. So it was

1832
01:59:14,120 --> 01:59:21,200
Speaker 2: to try to encourage them to write to the level

1833
01:59:21,240 --> 01:59:22,560
Speaker 2: of greatness that they.

1834
01:59:23,360 --> 01:59:26,080
Speaker 1: Ok, let's be clear, you make a deal. Do you

1835
01:59:26,080 --> 01:59:29,480
Speaker 1: have the studio time booked? Are they writing these songs

1836
01:59:29,520 --> 01:59:31,360
Speaker 1: before you go to the studio or are you waiting

1837
01:59:31,400 --> 01:59:33,040
Speaker 1: for them to write songs for you do go in

1838
01:59:33,080 --> 01:59:33,640
Speaker 1: the studio.

1839
01:59:34,120 --> 01:59:37,720
Speaker 2: They were working on songs before I got together with them,

1840
01:59:38,360 --> 01:59:42,280
Speaker 2: and then I went to Ireland. They're the rehearse in

1841
01:59:42,440 --> 01:59:48,160
Speaker 2: at Ronnie Woods Place, and both Mick and Keith were

1842
01:59:48,240 --> 01:59:52,360
Speaker 2: incredibly prolific. In that period of time. There were probably

1843
01:59:53,320 --> 01:59:57,960
Speaker 2: forty to fifty songs really parts of songs that could

1844
01:59:57,960 --> 02:00:03,040
Speaker 2: be developed. Yeah, they had a lot of stuff. Ah,

1845
02:00:03,440 --> 02:00:06,800
Speaker 2: and so it was narrowing it down and I tried

1846
02:00:06,800 --> 02:00:12,360
Speaker 2: to I remember muh trying to get them to agree

1847
02:00:12,440 --> 02:00:15,040
Speaker 2: to write the lyrics before we got to the studio,

1848
02:00:15,280 --> 02:00:18,280
Speaker 2: so that we could shape the tracks to the molder

1849
02:00:18,400 --> 02:00:23,040
Speaker 2: of the lyrics. And I thought I remembered Keith saying,

1850
02:00:23,040 --> 02:00:27,800
Speaker 2: all right, great, we'll do that. I came home from

1851
02:00:27,880 --> 02:00:31,600
Speaker 2: Dublin and I get a fact from him. A couple

1852
02:00:31,640 --> 02:00:33,520
Speaker 2: of days later. He said, all right, we're starting Tuesday.

1853
02:00:33,600 --> 02:00:38,120
Speaker 2: B Uh, you know, get back on a plane, be here.

1854
02:00:38,120 --> 02:00:42,800
Speaker 2: We're gonna cut it. Wind Mill Lane backed them back, said, wait,

1855
02:00:42,840 --> 02:00:46,040
Speaker 2: I thought you were going to write lyrics to the songs.

1856
02:00:46,720 --> 02:00:52,040
Speaker 2: He said, just remember when you get here, improvise adapt

1857
02:00:52,400 --> 02:00:56,120
Speaker 2: overcome and pe fuckings don't paint yourself into a quarner.

1858
02:00:57,200 --> 02:00:59,920
Speaker 2: I thought, shit, I lost them before we even stopped.

1859
02:01:01,520 --> 02:01:04,480
Speaker 2: But it was great advice. I ended up making shirts

1860
02:01:04,520 --> 02:01:08,840
Speaker 2: of it from his facts improvised adapt overcome on the

1861
02:01:08,840 --> 02:01:12,040
Speaker 2: back pe fucking s don't paint yourself into a corner.

1862
02:01:12,480 --> 02:01:14,880
Speaker 2: And it became kind of a mantra like just open

1863
02:01:14,960 --> 02:01:16,000
Speaker 2: up your mind and.

1864
02:01:16,560 --> 02:01:21,080
Speaker 1: Okay, you show up next Tuesday. Where are you working.

1865
02:01:21,360 --> 02:01:23,480
Speaker 2: We're working at Windmill Lane. Okay.

1866
02:01:24,000 --> 02:01:26,600
Speaker 1: Is there a thought that you're going to finish something

1867
02:01:27,000 --> 02:01:28,680
Speaker 1: or is it we're going to be here for month?

1868
02:01:28,720 --> 02:01:29,960
Speaker 1: Lord only knows.

1869
02:01:30,440 --> 02:01:34,680
Speaker 2: I think we had a finite timebook and you thought

1870
02:01:34,680 --> 02:01:36,800
Speaker 2: you were going to finish an album in that time.

1871
02:01:36,880 --> 02:01:40,520
Speaker 2: Now we're just going to get basic tracks cut. Okay, Yeah,

1872
02:01:40,560 --> 02:01:45,200
Speaker 2: and so we did. I think food Launch is a

1873
02:01:45,200 --> 02:01:52,800
Speaker 2: really good record. Every album I did with them, there

1874
02:01:52,880 --> 02:01:55,360
Speaker 2: was a we did a version that was thirty six

1875
02:01:55,440 --> 02:01:58,480
Speaker 2: minutes long. I was aware that there's a legacy that

1876
02:01:58,520 --> 02:02:02,080
Speaker 2: you had to keep up with. But albums like Beggars

1877
02:02:02,120 --> 02:02:07,640
Speaker 2: Banquet and Let It Bleed, those those records are short,

1878
02:02:08,440 --> 02:02:12,000
Speaker 2: you know, and the songs because you because you have

1879
02:02:12,520 --> 02:02:15,320
Speaker 2: a finite amount of real estate on a vinyl disc,

1880
02:02:15,440 --> 02:02:19,120
Speaker 2: which was the main medium for it them right, so

1881
02:02:19,160 --> 02:02:22,440
Speaker 2: you really thought about do we need eight bars between

1882
02:02:22,720 --> 02:02:25,680
Speaker 2: the first chorus and the second verse. No, man, you'd

1883
02:02:25,720 --> 02:02:29,160
Speaker 2: probably do it with four, do it with two. Let's

1884
02:02:29,200 --> 02:02:32,920
Speaker 2: you know. You did a lot of self editing. And

1885
02:02:32,960 --> 02:02:37,640
Speaker 2: then in the CD era there was I think a

1886
02:02:37,720 --> 02:02:41,240
Speaker 2: myth that people would be willing to pay twenty bucks

1887
02:02:41,280 --> 02:02:43,800
Speaker 2: for this if you give them seventy two minutes of

1888
02:02:43,920 --> 02:02:48,160
Speaker 2: music instead of thirty six, which I think was one

1889
02:02:48,160 --> 02:02:50,600
Speaker 2: of the most damaging things that ever happened in the

1890
02:02:50,680 --> 02:03:02,440
Speaker 2: music business. That was a really bill informed strategy, because

1891
02:03:02,480 --> 02:03:04,080
Speaker 2: that means you just fill up the space.

1892
02:03:04,200 --> 02:03:06,960
Speaker 1: Well, it was worse than that because on a vinyl record,

1893
02:03:07,600 --> 02:03:09,880
Speaker 1: you knew the first track on both sides and the

1894
02:03:10,000 --> 02:03:12,680
Speaker 1: last track on both sides were the best tracks, so

1895
02:03:12,720 --> 02:03:15,080
Speaker 1: you would know where to start, whereas on a CD

1896
02:03:15,200 --> 02:03:16,840
Speaker 1: it ran all the way through where the fuck do

1897
02:03:16,920 --> 02:03:17,360
Speaker 1: you start?

1898
02:03:17,440 --> 02:03:21,520
Speaker 2: And that's a real thing. Also, each side would have

1899
02:03:21,760 --> 02:03:28,000
Speaker 2: a mood to it too, and it was it was

1900
02:03:28,120 --> 02:03:30,760
Speaker 2: very difficult to find seventy two minutes to listen to

1901
02:03:30,800 --> 02:03:35,040
Speaker 2: something as a whole, almost insane. Yeah, but Evan could

1902
02:03:35,040 --> 02:03:37,440
Speaker 2: find fifteen to twenty minutes to listen to a side.

1903
02:03:40,400 --> 02:03:44,360
Speaker 2: So we did versions that were tight edits and left

1904
02:03:44,360 --> 02:03:48,760
Speaker 2: out a bunch of songs, and it was really good,

1905
02:03:51,760 --> 02:03:55,560
Speaker 2: which stood the test of time against what's considered to

1906
02:03:55,600 --> 02:04:00,000
Speaker 2: be their classic period. I think there's some great stuff.

1907
02:04:01,440 --> 02:04:03,280
Speaker 2: I think there's great stuff on all the records we did.

1908
02:04:03,360 --> 02:04:04,920
Speaker 2: There's just maybe too much stuff.

1909
02:04:06,280 --> 02:04:12,440
Speaker 1: Okay, these are very experienced people on every level, experience

1910
02:04:12,480 --> 02:04:16,280
Speaker 1: in the studio, experience stars. They know what their image is, whatever,

1911
02:04:18,000 --> 02:04:20,640
Speaker 1: what's the special sauce, because they proved a lot of

1912
02:04:20,680 --> 02:04:26,000
Speaker 1: records themselves, because the Glimmer Twins. So are you basically saying, well,

1913
02:04:26,080 --> 02:04:28,800
Speaker 1: you know, I gotta be low key and know when

1914
02:04:28,800 --> 02:04:30,680
Speaker 1: to hold them, when to fold them. What did you

1915
02:04:30,720 --> 02:04:31,440
Speaker 1: actually do?

1916
02:04:34,480 --> 02:04:39,960
Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot, you know, it's hard to just

1917
02:04:40,080 --> 02:04:45,440
Speaker 2: overgeneralize the thing. But it was first of all, keeping

1918
02:04:46,320 --> 02:04:50,960
Speaker 2: the vibe in the room conducive to making music, making

1919
02:04:51,000 --> 02:04:58,120
Speaker 2: good music and stressing. I wasn't Keith's guy. I wasn't

1920
02:04:58,200 --> 02:05:02,440
Speaker 2: mixed guy, a Rolling Stones guy. I love the Rolling

1921
02:05:02,480 --> 02:05:06,960
Speaker 2: Stones and I believe that they're at their best when

1922
02:05:07,000 --> 02:05:14,920
Speaker 2: they cooperate, and when you get both, you get everybody's

1923
02:05:15,040 --> 02:05:16,680
Speaker 2: essence on there. And I don't, by the way, I

1924
02:05:16,960 --> 02:05:24,120
Speaker 2: don't underestimate the power Charlie Watts or Ronnie would in

1925
02:05:24,160 --> 02:05:30,240
Speaker 2: this equation as well. Charlie was as important as anybody

1926
02:05:30,320 --> 02:05:30,880
Speaker 2: in that pill.

1927
02:05:31,920 --> 02:05:35,440
Speaker 1: You know, the stuff sends him and you know, on

1928
02:05:35,600 --> 02:05:38,800
Speaker 1: record and live it's like we were talking about ron Carter.

1929
02:05:39,520 --> 02:05:42,360
Speaker 1: They're playing, but if you're a student, you could hear

1930
02:05:42,360 --> 02:05:42,919
Speaker 1: the difference.

1931
02:05:43,040 --> 02:05:47,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, they I got to play with them

1932
02:05:47,000 --> 02:05:49,840
Speaker 2: a lot, you know. If Daryl Jones couldn't make it

1933
02:05:49,840 --> 02:05:54,160
Speaker 2: to a rehearsal, something I play, and that really gave

1934
02:05:54,200 --> 02:05:58,200
Speaker 2: me a great understanding of what they were about, because

1935
02:05:58,200 --> 02:06:03,160
Speaker 2: it was and being on the interior of the conversation,

1936
02:06:04,680 --> 02:06:08,240
Speaker 2: I realized that all that, all the tension that everybody

1937
02:06:08,320 --> 02:06:11,560
Speaker 2: reports on and everything like that, which is based in reality,

1938
02:06:12,720 --> 02:06:16,480
Speaker 2: it vanishes the minute they start playing. The conversation is

1939
02:06:16,560 --> 02:06:21,640
Speaker 2: so jocular man, and they're they're tossing, they're lobbing beautiful

1940
02:06:21,760 --> 02:06:25,080
Speaker 2: soft balls right in the gloves. It reminds me what's

1941
02:06:25,120 --> 02:06:27,920
Speaker 2: it called in baseball before the inning starts, when they

1942
02:06:28,040 --> 02:06:30,920
Speaker 2: they're like four or five different balls being past.

1943
02:06:31,920 --> 02:06:34,000
Speaker 1: I don't know what you're talking about in a in

1944
02:06:34,040 --> 02:06:34,360
Speaker 1: a in.

1945
02:06:34,320 --> 02:06:37,520
Speaker 2: A baseball game before the inning starts, the infield or

1946
02:06:37,560 --> 02:06:39,680
Speaker 2: just toss balls around. Yeah, I think that's just the

1947
02:06:39,680 --> 02:06:45,640
Speaker 2: warm up. So that's what the Rolling Stones are like.

1948
02:06:45,880 --> 02:06:48,840
Speaker 2: They're playing musical. Charlie plays something on his high hat

1949
02:06:48,840 --> 02:06:51,400
Speaker 2: to Keith to pick up on and play off of it.

1950
02:06:51,480 --> 02:06:55,640
Speaker 2: That would affect how mcphrased. And it was jocular and

1951
02:06:55,680 --> 02:06:58,680
Speaker 2: they were having fun and it was super relaxed. It

1952
02:06:58,760 --> 02:07:01,400
Speaker 2: was beautiful. When Darryl Jones was a comeback, it broke

1953
02:07:01,480 --> 02:07:03,840
Speaker 2: my heart because I enjoyed being in that space with

1954
02:07:03,920 --> 02:07:04,600
Speaker 2: them so much.

1955
02:07:06,120 --> 02:07:10,280
Speaker 1: You know, I've seen the Stones a million times. It's

1956
02:07:10,360 --> 02:07:12,440
Speaker 1: kind of like The Grateful Dead. They'd say they don't

1957
02:07:12,440 --> 02:07:15,240
Speaker 1: play that long Grateful Dead do. I saw plenty of

1958
02:07:15,360 --> 02:07:18,280
Speaker 1: times they played for four hours. I only saw him

1959
02:07:18,320 --> 02:07:22,120
Speaker 1: be consistently good from beginning to end. Once other times

1960
02:07:22,120 --> 02:07:25,600
Speaker 1: play for four hours, one hour unlistenable, one hour great,

1961
02:07:25,680 --> 02:07:29,640
Speaker 1: two hours sort of. So until this last tour at

1962
02:07:29,760 --> 02:07:34,320
Speaker 1: so far was it two summers ago, maybe maybe last summer.

1963
02:07:35,640 --> 02:07:38,720
Speaker 1: I've never seen him be good from beginning ten stonesh

1964
02:07:38,720 --> 02:07:41,280
Speaker 1: you tell them, yeah, I mean I remember in seventy

1965
02:07:41,320 --> 02:07:44,280
Speaker 1: five day Pleader. That was when the petal opening whatever

1966
02:07:45,160 --> 02:07:48,640
Speaker 1: I played basically an hour and a half wasn't until

1967
02:07:48,760 --> 02:07:52,120
Speaker 1: like there was like a half hour they played Tumbling Dice.

1968
02:07:52,160 --> 02:07:53,880
Speaker 1: You know this is one of these Now we're gonna

1969
02:07:53,880 --> 02:07:57,280
Speaker 1: start telling rock and roll stories. There are certain Eggs

1970
02:07:57,320 --> 02:08:00,400
Speaker 1: All on main Street came out. Seventy two tour was

1971
02:08:00,440 --> 02:08:04,200
Speaker 1: the biggest tour ever up until this Taylor Swift tour.

1972
02:08:04,480 --> 02:08:06,800
Speaker 1: The amount of coverage of the seventy two tour is unreal.

1973
02:08:07,520 --> 02:08:10,200
Speaker 1: Eggs All on Mainstream is release, immediately goes to number one,

1974
02:08:10,880 --> 02:08:15,840
Speaker 1: tours over immediately falls off, rocks off, not a huge shit.

1975
02:08:16,280 --> 02:08:20,800
Speaker 1: Tumbling Dice. They're playing for a short period of time, Okay,

1976
02:08:21,040 --> 02:08:23,120
Speaker 1: I'm talking about radio, and all of a sudden I

1977
02:08:23,120 --> 02:08:24,760
Speaker 1: go on this tour. This is three years later. I've

1978
02:08:24,760 --> 02:08:26,520
Speaker 1: seen him in between. It's tell them the seventy two

1979
02:08:27,160 --> 02:08:30,080
Speaker 1: and they lock on Okay, I mean, you can just

1980
02:08:30,200 --> 02:08:35,160
Speaker 1: feel it. But I found remember seeing the funniest two

1981
02:08:35,200 --> 02:08:38,600
Speaker 1: funny things about the Stones. They don't go out with

1982
02:08:38,680 --> 02:08:41,560
Speaker 1: any hard drives. They don't go out with anybody off stage.

1983
02:08:41,880 --> 02:08:44,160
Speaker 1: What you see is what you get. So you get

1984
02:08:44,160 --> 02:08:48,160
Speaker 1: a bar band at the rose Ball. Everybody else too

1985
02:08:48,200 --> 02:08:53,640
Speaker 1: afraid to do that. And before they lock on, it's

1986
02:08:53,680 --> 02:08:55,240
Speaker 1: a little weird.

1987
02:08:56,400 --> 02:08:58,240
Speaker 2: Any band, it's kind of like that. Takes a minute

1988
02:08:58,280 --> 02:09:00,600
Speaker 2: to get going, I think, But that's just part of

1989
02:09:00,640 --> 02:09:04,360
Speaker 2: the thing. The audience needs to sink into it too,

1990
02:09:04,400 --> 02:09:05,080
Speaker 2: a little bit, you know.

1991
02:09:05,680 --> 02:09:09,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, but the game has changed. Okay, you know.

1992
02:09:11,320 --> 02:09:11,640
Speaker 2: You would.

1993
02:09:12,120 --> 02:09:14,600
Speaker 1: I'm sure you saw a million acts. Forget the acts

1994
02:09:14,600 --> 02:09:17,840
Speaker 1: that are headline acts like the Stones. You would go

1995
02:09:18,360 --> 02:09:20,920
Speaker 1: because you have the record, you love this band. You

1996
02:09:21,000 --> 02:09:23,800
Speaker 1: go to seem at someplace, a whole a few thousand

1997
02:09:23,840 --> 02:09:28,080
Speaker 1: people had an experience and came home and then tell

1998
02:09:28,080 --> 02:09:29,400
Speaker 1: your buddy's got to come the next time.

1999
02:09:29,480 --> 02:09:29,680
Speaker 2: Through it.

2000
02:09:30,280 --> 02:09:35,840
Speaker 1: Today a lot of arena shows that's like an MTV

2001
02:09:36,080 --> 02:09:39,720
Speaker 1: video Come Alive. Yeah, I agree, it's not really the

2002
02:09:39,800 --> 02:09:43,120
Speaker 1: same thing, which brings me to the question of where

2003
02:09:43,200 --> 02:09:43,760
Speaker 1: is it going.

2004
02:09:47,160 --> 02:09:50,840
Speaker 2: Well, that's a good question, man. I don't know, I

2005
02:09:50,880 --> 02:09:56,720
Speaker 2: think there are some underpinnings to music that can't be

2006
02:09:57,040 --> 02:10:00,280
Speaker 2: You can't get rid of these things. And that's has

2007
02:10:00,320 --> 02:10:06,320
Speaker 2: to do with making an emotional connection to the listeners.

2008
02:10:06,880 --> 02:10:09,600
Speaker 2: You gotta touch them, you gotta make them feel something.

2009
02:10:12,560 --> 02:10:17,280
Speaker 2: Hopefully it's not just a random feeling. Hopefully it's helpful.

2010
02:10:17,400 --> 02:10:20,120
Speaker 2: You know, it helps them make sense out of their

2011
02:10:20,200 --> 02:10:27,160
Speaker 2: life somehow. You know, life is crazy. Music helps him

2012
02:10:27,160 --> 02:10:29,760
Speaker 2: make sense of it. That's why it's so important.

2013
02:10:29,800 --> 02:10:35,320
Speaker 1: Okay, let's be very specific. Lou Christie recently died. Whatever

2014
02:10:35,520 --> 02:10:38,960
Speaker 1: is in Lightning Strikes and I'm not I say, there

2015
02:10:39,040 --> 02:10:41,840
Speaker 1: is something in that record that is just undeniable.

2016
02:10:42,840 --> 02:10:43,240
Speaker 2: What was it?

2017
02:10:43,400 --> 02:10:45,120
Speaker 1: Narls Barkley Crazy.

2018
02:10:45,600 --> 02:10:47,160
Speaker 2: That's a more modern.

2019
02:10:46,840 --> 02:10:51,040
Speaker 1: Record where there's something, you know what. The New York

2020
02:10:51,200 --> 02:10:53,480
Speaker 1: I never do this, but they had, like they put

2021
02:10:53,480 --> 02:10:55,960
Speaker 1: out a weekly playlist of, you know, ten tracks, and

2022
02:10:56,040 --> 02:11:01,480
Speaker 1: this was the Women, all of them except one was terrible,

2023
02:11:01,640 --> 02:11:04,240
Speaker 1: the Sabrina Carpenter track, which and I've got no time

2024
02:11:04,280 --> 02:11:06,400
Speaker 1: for her. I said, I hear this as a hit,

2025
02:11:07,800 --> 02:11:10,920
Speaker 1: but it's nothing like Lightning Strikes whatever. So it's got

2026
02:11:10,960 --> 02:11:14,760
Speaker 1: these changes. Whatever, it does not communicate on that emotional

2027
02:11:14,840 --> 02:11:16,160
Speaker 1: level that you're talking about.

2028
02:11:16,320 --> 02:11:21,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it might, it might go deep.

2029
02:11:22,120 --> 02:11:27,040
Speaker 1: I don't think so, because this is ridiculous. I remember

2030
02:11:27,120 --> 02:11:31,960
Speaker 1: buying Disraeli gears and not many people talk about this track,

2031
02:11:32,040 --> 02:11:34,440
Speaker 1: but it's the opening on the second side is Tales

2032
02:11:34,440 --> 02:11:38,360
Speaker 1: of Brave Ulysses. We're telling my mother had no interest

2033
02:11:38,400 --> 02:11:41,320
Speaker 1: in rock and roll. I gotta play this for you. Yeah,

2034
02:11:41,960 --> 02:11:44,640
Speaker 1: this shit has sound wheel, it goes. There was a

2035
02:11:44,720 --> 02:11:48,320
Speaker 1: thought that lat Winter. It's like there was a feeling

2036
02:11:48,800 --> 02:11:49,720
Speaker 1: in that record.

2037
02:11:51,680 --> 02:11:56,040
Speaker 2: I'll tell you something, man, if you can get seventy

2038
02:11:56,280 --> 02:11:59,520
Speaker 2: thousand people, fifty thousand people into us to come to

2039
02:11:59,560 --> 02:12:04,320
Speaker 2: a state him to sit in traffic, pay for parking,

2040
02:12:04,560 --> 02:12:09,680
Speaker 2: pay for babysitters, whatever you know, and to come there,

2041
02:12:12,480 --> 02:12:16,120
Speaker 2: it's speaking to you in a in some kind of way.

2042
02:12:16,720 --> 02:12:18,840
Speaker 2: You don't go. If it's not.

2043
02:12:26,680 --> 02:12:28,840
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm just gonna fuck with you. Then what do

2044
02:12:28,880 --> 02:12:30,120
Speaker 1: you say about new kids.

2045
02:12:29,880 --> 02:12:32,320
Speaker 2: On the block. I think they spoke to somebody.

2046
02:12:32,640 --> 02:12:36,280
Speaker 1: Wait, wait, so the question is I'm not arguing with

2047
02:12:36,440 --> 02:12:41,000
Speaker 1: people deciding to go pay their money now more than ever,

2048
02:12:41,480 --> 02:12:45,600
Speaker 1: there's a penumber, You shoot selfies, you post on social media.

2049
02:12:46,120 --> 02:12:49,640
Speaker 1: Things are hot. Yeah, okay, we both I mean the

2050
02:12:49,680 --> 02:12:51,520
Speaker 1: biggest thing you live in Los Angeles because you see

2051
02:12:51,520 --> 02:12:54,840
Speaker 1: these people. People who could leave the hotel room now

2052
02:12:54,880 --> 02:12:58,160
Speaker 1: you see them at Ralph's. It's hysterical. Nobody's making a

2053
02:12:58,160 --> 02:13:00,760
Speaker 1: big deal about them where they're where other people go,

2054
02:13:01,280 --> 02:13:03,640
Speaker 1: like Brian Wilson, it's just to be in this Prince.

2055
02:13:03,760 --> 02:13:08,320
Speaker 1: Holy fuck, that is the guy. It's in there somewhere.

2056
02:13:09,720 --> 02:13:16,320
Speaker 2: Well, I see it. Yeah, I'll tell you a story. Man.

2057
02:13:17,560 --> 02:13:21,200
Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety, not was got booked on the Club

2058
02:13:21,360 --> 02:13:25,720
Speaker 2: MTV tour. So we were out with a tone low

2059
02:13:26,680 --> 02:13:36,600
Speaker 2: Paula Abdul, Millie Vanilli Us and the Information Society. We're

2060
02:13:36,640 --> 02:13:41,040
Speaker 2: the only ones playing live and we were bombing every night.

2061
02:13:41,040 --> 02:13:47,680
Speaker 2: That required the extreme generosity and kind spirit of downtown

2062
02:13:47,800 --> 02:13:50,560
Speaker 2: Julie Brown to come out with her dancers and rescue

2063
02:13:50,600 --> 02:13:55,560
Speaker 2: our set every night because because the people wanted to

2064
02:13:55,560 --> 02:13:58,120
Speaker 2: hear the records, like the records, and we didn't sound

2065
02:13:58,200 --> 02:14:00,760
Speaker 2: like Well, one night we get to move. It's the

2066
02:14:00,840 --> 02:14:04,240
Speaker 2: Riverfront Festival. It's like fifteen thousand people and it's on

2067
02:14:04,280 --> 02:14:08,640
Speaker 2: a very steep incline, so you could see the whole audience.

2068
02:14:09,640 --> 02:14:16,400
Speaker 2: Milli Vanilli comes out and something was technically wrong Sinclavia.

2069
02:14:16,440 --> 02:14:20,160
Speaker 2: It wasn't connected to the direct box or something, so

2070
02:14:20,200 --> 02:14:22,080
Speaker 2: you could hear drums and they come out and they're

2071
02:14:22,160 --> 02:14:24,480
Speaker 2: dancing for about a minute and a half. There's no music.

2072
02:14:25,760 --> 02:14:30,600
Speaker 2: They storm off stage, go back in the bus, they

2073
02:14:30,600 --> 02:14:34,680
Speaker 2: fix whatever was wrong, to find what's unplugged downtown. Julie

2074
02:14:34,720 --> 02:14:37,000
Speaker 2: Brown goes out to convince him to come back in

2075
02:14:38,280 --> 02:14:41,000
Speaker 2: and to be honest with you, my band and I

2076
02:14:41,160 --> 02:14:44,160
Speaker 2: was standing on the side of the stage just gloating,

2077
02:14:44,920 --> 02:14:48,880
Speaker 2: you know, I think, finally some justice, right. So Millie

2078
02:14:48,920 --> 02:14:52,440
Speaker 2: Vanilli came back out after going through all that, after

2079
02:14:52,480 --> 02:14:57,040
Speaker 2: everyone saw that nothing was real, and they started over

2080
02:14:57,560 --> 02:15:05,840
Speaker 2: and nobody cared. So what does that tell us that

2081
02:15:06,160 --> 02:15:08,720
Speaker 2: What it told me was that we were the idiots

2082
02:15:08,960 --> 02:15:11,560
Speaker 2: we were. I think we were trying to enforce some

2083
02:15:13,200 --> 02:15:15,920
Speaker 2: musical aesthetic on an audience that wasn't there for that.

2084
02:15:15,960 --> 02:15:19,640
Speaker 2: They were there for something else, and they were paying

2085
02:15:19,720 --> 02:15:22,360
Speaker 2: money to see the videos come to life, and we

2086
02:15:22,520 --> 02:15:29,360
Speaker 2: didn't provide that. Milli Vanilli did, And I came to

2087
02:15:29,440 --> 02:15:35,600
Speaker 2: respect the fact that it's not just a meritocracy based

2088
02:15:35,640 --> 02:15:39,000
Speaker 2: on what we value. It's their ability to communicate with

2089
02:15:39,080 --> 02:15:42,800
Speaker 2: the audience. So there's a lot of music that's out

2090
02:15:42,800 --> 02:15:45,960
Speaker 2: now that young people are listening to that. That leaves

2091
02:15:46,040 --> 02:15:49,240
Speaker 2: me cold. But I see the reaction, you know, and

2092
02:15:49,280 --> 02:15:52,880
Speaker 2: I see people going night wait, wait, wait, wait, wait wait. Fine.

2093
02:15:53,200 --> 02:15:57,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is not like it was in the sixties

2094
02:15:57,440 --> 02:15:58,600
Speaker 1: and seventhes. Not for you and me.

2095
02:15:58,760 --> 02:16:01,040
Speaker 2: But it's not It would.

2096
02:16:00,840 --> 02:16:02,240
Speaker 1: Have been seventy in the sixties.

2097
02:16:02,280 --> 02:16:04,920
Speaker 2: We'd have we are seventy. Well.

2098
02:16:05,200 --> 02:16:09,760
Speaker 1: I always say, there's a renaissance. Okay, they painted and sculptured, Retaissance.

2099
02:16:10,640 --> 02:16:14,240
Speaker 1: They've painted and sculpted hundreds of years since. There's never

2100
02:16:14,320 --> 02:16:19,200
Speaker 1: been another renaissance. There've been great painters and great sculptors,

2101
02:16:19,560 --> 02:16:21,160
Speaker 1: but was in the you know, a lot of things

2102
02:16:21,200 --> 02:16:24,440
Speaker 1: had to come together, the radio without all this stuff

2103
02:16:24,480 --> 02:16:28,720
Speaker 1: like that. And also the other thing is today middle

2104
02:16:28,800 --> 02:16:32,920
Speaker 1: class people know the reality of society. You talk to someone,

2105
02:16:33,000 --> 02:16:35,520
Speaker 1: they don't want to be broke. I remember I graduated

2106
02:16:35,520 --> 02:16:37,440
Speaker 1: from college. I was a skee bump for a couple

2107
02:16:37,400 --> 02:16:40,000
Speaker 1: of years. People don't do that anymore. I got to

2108
02:16:40,000 --> 02:16:41,640
Speaker 1: have a career otherwise I'm going to be a loser.

2109
02:16:41,680 --> 02:16:45,280
Speaker 1: It's too expensive to live your life. So you got

2110
02:16:45,280 --> 02:16:48,360
Speaker 1: middle class people. I mean, the famous thing was when

2111
02:16:48,600 --> 02:16:52,320
Speaker 1: Bill Graham managed Jefferson airplane for a while, sod As

2112
02:16:52,360 --> 02:16:53,879
Speaker 1: soon as they made any money, I couldn't get them

2113
02:16:53,920 --> 02:16:56,200
Speaker 1: to work. Want to stay home and smoke dope. That's

2114
02:16:56,200 --> 02:17:00,000
Speaker 1: what it is. I mean, that's not what's going on today.

2115
02:17:00,040 --> 02:17:02,360
Speaker 1: Makes me crazy when people say, oh yeah, you know,

2116
02:17:02,440 --> 02:17:05,280
Speaker 1: you're just too old and it's the same as it

2117
02:17:05,320 --> 02:17:08,000
Speaker 1: ever was. It's not the same, is it ever?

2118
02:17:08,040 --> 02:17:10,240
Speaker 2: With? It might be strong? Look at all the people

2119
02:17:10,440 --> 02:17:13,200
Speaker 2: the Taylor Swift drass to the shows. Man, you know

2120
02:17:13,920 --> 02:17:15,840
Speaker 2: you know she's speaking directly.

2121
02:17:15,879 --> 02:17:20,760
Speaker 1: Wait, I'm gonna let's get since you're a pro dangerous

2122
02:17:20,800 --> 02:17:24,560
Speaker 1: subject because she wrote a song about me. But the

2123
02:17:24,640 --> 02:17:29,840
Speaker 1: first two albums that she wrote, the songs with Liz Rose,

2124
02:17:30,600 --> 02:17:35,920
Speaker 1: it was like teenage Joni Mitchell, phenomenal. Okay, whatever she's

2125
02:17:35,959 --> 02:17:40,400
Speaker 1: selling now, it is not the same thing. This is

2126
02:17:40,440 --> 02:17:46,040
Speaker 1: a business proposition because the previous tour did not go clean. Okay,

2127
02:17:46,520 --> 02:17:48,320
Speaker 1: if I put all the tickets on sale, it wance,

2128
02:17:48,320 --> 02:17:51,879
Speaker 1: it'll be such mania. And then you there's fomo et cetera.

2129
02:17:52,520 --> 02:17:56,240
Speaker 1: It's it's you know, there are these subtle things. It's

2130
02:17:56,320 --> 02:17:58,879
Speaker 1: like you two, you two went out and did the

2131
02:17:58,959 --> 02:18:03,000
Speaker 1: Joshua Tree done for new music. It's like a nostalgia play.

2132
02:18:03,080 --> 02:18:07,240
Speaker 1: They're all these certain subtle things. People are not going

2133
02:18:07,280 --> 02:18:10,200
Speaker 1: to be singing. We will never ever get back together

2134
02:18:10,400 --> 02:18:13,039
Speaker 1: fifteen years from now like they were singing Beatles songs

2135
02:18:13,080 --> 02:18:13,560
Speaker 1: to this day.

2136
02:18:13,640 --> 02:18:15,360
Speaker 2: I don't know that that's true. I don't think I

2137
02:18:15,400 --> 02:18:18,360
Speaker 2: agree with you. I was in a played in Tronto.

2138
02:18:18,440 --> 02:18:23,400
Speaker 2: We've played a two thousand seater the same night that

2139
02:18:23,440 --> 02:18:27,000
Speaker 2: Taylor Swift was doing one of several nights in the stadium,

2140
02:18:28,280 --> 02:18:30,640
Speaker 2: and I, you know, I went out for a walk

2141
02:18:30,760 --> 02:18:36,680
Speaker 2: in all these women with the sparkles and the bracelets

2142
02:18:36,800 --> 02:18:42,240
Speaker 2: and dressed a certain way. It means as much to

2143
02:18:42,320 --> 02:18:44,760
Speaker 2: them as give piece of Chance meant to you.

2144
02:18:44,800 --> 02:18:48,400
Speaker 1: And I'll leave it here because I don't agree with you,

2145
02:18:48,840 --> 02:18:53,720
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna whip out a bad analogy. Okay, television

2146
02:18:53,760 --> 02:18:58,199
Speaker 1: today compared to what it was when we were growing up, Yeah, okay,

2147
02:18:58,360 --> 02:19:01,240
Speaker 1: we would have said Banana's a phenomenal show. Yeah my

2148
02:19:01,280 --> 02:19:03,600
Speaker 1: mother the Car maybe I watched it and not great.

2149
02:19:04,560 --> 02:19:08,520
Speaker 1: The sopranos, I mean, holy fuck, better than any movie

2150
02:19:08,520 --> 02:19:09,080
Speaker 1: in the theater.

2151
02:19:09,800 --> 02:19:10,279
Speaker 2: Okay.

2152
02:19:10,600 --> 02:19:12,680
Speaker 1: There are people, you know, you go somewhere. They can

2153
02:19:12,720 --> 02:19:15,840
Speaker 1: sing all the theme song, they can talk about mash whatever,

2154
02:19:16,000 --> 02:19:20,520
Speaker 1: mash was in the league of What's on TV today crap.

2155
02:19:21,000 --> 02:19:24,400
Speaker 1: I will agree that these people like it by all,

2156
02:19:24,959 --> 02:19:28,920
Speaker 1: just to go one step for this was everything for us.

2157
02:19:29,640 --> 02:19:33,200
Speaker 1: People don't understand, just like I was talking about. You

2158
02:19:33,240 --> 02:19:37,720
Speaker 1: can pick out the Republicans on campus. Okay. I remember

2159
02:19:37,760 --> 02:19:39,680
Speaker 1: being at the New York World's Fair the second year,

2160
02:19:40,040 --> 02:19:42,880
Speaker 1: getting off the mono rail close to midnight and the

2161
02:19:42,920 --> 02:19:44,879
Speaker 1: speaker system is playing Satisfaction.

2162
02:19:45,000 --> 02:19:45,760
Speaker 2: That's sixty five.

2163
02:19:46,160 --> 02:19:49,240
Speaker 1: There was not a soul alive on the planet who

2164
02:19:49,280 --> 02:19:52,720
Speaker 1: had not heard Satisfaction, not a single person. Doesn't mean

2165
02:19:52,760 --> 02:19:54,800
Speaker 1: they liked it, but they heard it the same way.

2166
02:19:54,840 --> 02:19:57,000
Speaker 1: I can sing every lick of Hello Dolly by Louis

2167
02:19:57,120 --> 02:19:59,640
Speaker 1: Armstrong because I had to sit through it to hear

2168
02:19:59,640 --> 02:20:05,200
Speaker 1: the beat song. Things do change, you know, there is

2169
02:20:05,720 --> 02:20:09,120
Speaker 1: and there are different eras. So the question would become,

2170
02:20:09,840 --> 02:20:13,960
Speaker 1: if we circle back forget the reissues. That's something different.

2171
02:20:14,520 --> 02:20:20,080
Speaker 1: You're making these records on blue note. You call them postcards,

2172
02:20:20,080 --> 02:20:23,080
Speaker 1: good analogy, but you're just basically sending.

2173
02:20:22,800 --> 02:20:23,400
Speaker 2: Him to the ether.

2174
02:20:24,040 --> 02:20:29,240
Speaker 1: There's not enough promotion, marketing dollars to reach even a

2175
02:20:29,320 --> 02:20:32,040
Speaker 1: fraction of people to make it work. You're just putting

2176
02:20:32,080 --> 02:20:36,680
Speaker 1: it out their audience knows it. You could get lucky,

2177
02:20:37,280 --> 02:20:40,080
Speaker 1: just like Mom Dommie. I don't want to talk about

2178
02:20:40,080 --> 02:20:42,840
Speaker 1: the politics whatever, blah blah blah. Big story in the

2179
02:20:42,840 --> 02:20:47,200
Speaker 1: paper today saying that on social media it was embraced

2180
02:20:47,560 --> 02:20:51,039
Speaker 1: by all these people who made their own videos. So

2181
02:20:51,200 --> 02:20:54,200
Speaker 1: you don't know nothing is going to be as big

2182
02:20:54,240 --> 02:20:56,959
Speaker 1: because we don't live in a monoculture anymore. But you

2183
02:20:57,040 --> 02:20:59,640
Speaker 1: don't know if the records are as good as you say.

2184
02:21:00,200 --> 02:21:03,880
Speaker 1: And I truly believe one could connect it. George Benson.

2185
02:21:04,440 --> 02:21:09,320
Speaker 1: George Benson was just a fucking jazz musician. Wait a minute, No,

2186
02:21:09,440 --> 02:21:11,720
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say is he did that album

2187
02:21:11,760 --> 02:21:15,560
Speaker 1: with on Broadway. He became a phenomenon. It's not like

2188
02:21:15,600 --> 02:21:18,320
Speaker 1: the label said, oh we got a big plan, this

2189
02:21:18,360 --> 02:21:19,119
Speaker 1: is going to happen.

2190
02:21:19,240 --> 02:21:27,800
Speaker 2: Song can take off. Yeah, it's I don't think it's

2191
02:21:27,800 --> 02:21:30,480
Speaker 2: all that complicated. Man. You know, you try to try

2192
02:21:30,520 --> 02:21:35,360
Speaker 2: to make records for soulful people, communicative people. They have

2193
02:21:35,480 --> 02:21:39,800
Speaker 2: more choice today. You can hear everything all the time.

2194
02:21:39,840 --> 02:21:42,120
Speaker 2: You have millions of songs we couldn't before. You know,

2195
02:21:42,920 --> 02:21:45,160
Speaker 2: I was just I just found my copy of I

2196
02:21:45,200 --> 02:21:48,280
Speaker 2: Get Around, which I had Brian sign and for me

2197
02:21:48,320 --> 02:21:50,200
Speaker 2: in the nineties, and I still got the jacket them

2198
02:21:50,240 --> 02:21:54,480
Speaker 2: walking up the steps. It was two sides, man. I

2199
02:21:54,560 --> 02:21:57,400
Speaker 2: played it to death because I paid a dollar for it.

2200
02:21:58,240 --> 02:22:02,320
Speaker 2: I didn't have a second dollar. Yeah, so I got

2201
02:22:02,320 --> 02:22:05,520
Speaker 2: into that. Well, it's different. People have a choice, But

2202
02:22:06,120 --> 02:22:13,160
Speaker 2: you can't deny if someone connects the way Taylor Swift connects.

2203
02:22:13,840 --> 02:22:16,960
Speaker 2: You just can't deny that there's artistry in place, and

2204
02:22:17,000 --> 02:22:21,640
Speaker 2: that there's art is about communication. Great artists communicate, and

2205
02:22:21,680 --> 02:22:25,600
Speaker 2: she's a great communicator. She's not communicating. It's not speaking

2206
02:22:25,640 --> 02:22:27,760
Speaker 2: to me, but it's not supposed to speak to me.

2207
02:22:27,959 --> 02:22:30,480
Speaker 2: It's the same way that satisfaction was not meant to

2208
02:22:30,520 --> 02:22:33,120
Speaker 2: speak to my grandfather. You know that it was a

2209
02:22:33,160 --> 02:22:36,600
Speaker 2: secret language. That's what made it Special's.

2210
02:22:36,160 --> 02:22:39,920
Speaker 1: Let's leave Taylor Swift in her career out in terms

2211
02:22:39,959 --> 02:22:45,160
Speaker 1: of identity for a second. But she made records with

2212
02:22:45,400 --> 02:22:51,040
Speaker 1: Max Martin unbelievably talented. Yeah, okay, Mutt Lang didn't make

2213
02:22:51,080 --> 02:22:53,560
Speaker 1: as many records, but he can make the records himself.

2214
02:22:53,160 --> 02:22:53,879
Speaker 2: In his day.

2215
02:22:54,400 --> 02:22:59,880
Speaker 1: But in today's mainstream record business, there's a lot of

2216
02:23:00,440 --> 02:23:07,560
Speaker 1: writing by committee remixing. What is your philosophy on those processes?

2217
02:23:09,400 --> 02:23:12,560
Speaker 2: If it touches people who cares how you came up

2218
02:23:12,560 --> 02:23:14,120
Speaker 2: with it, Man, it doesn't matter.

2219
02:23:14,360 --> 02:23:16,640
Speaker 1: You don't think you can squeeze out the essence.

2220
02:23:19,959 --> 02:23:22,280
Speaker 2: I can show you shitty records that were made in

2221
02:23:22,520 --> 02:23:27,000
Speaker 2: every era, any any golden period. You want a sight,

2222
02:23:28,760 --> 02:23:32,160
Speaker 2: probably probably the week that like a rolling Stone was

2223
02:23:32,240 --> 02:23:34,800
Speaker 2: number one, Probably like they're coming to take me away?

2224
02:23:34,920 --> 02:23:41,879
Speaker 2: That was probably right. There's always great stuff, there's always

2225
02:23:41,920 --> 02:23:44,480
Speaker 2: bad stuff. Just try to make stuff that you believe in.

2226
02:23:44,800 --> 02:23:49,080
Speaker 2: It's it's so uncomplicated. It's so simple, man. Just make

2227
02:23:49,160 --> 02:23:52,200
Speaker 2: real stuff, work with people who can who can tap

2228
02:23:52,280 --> 02:23:56,520
Speaker 2: into their heart and and and and that's what an

2229
02:23:56,600 --> 02:23:59,800
Speaker 2: artist does. An artist feels something, puts it into another

2230
02:24:00,520 --> 02:24:05,120
Speaker 2: and the hope that someone who's observing it, a listener

2231
02:24:05,240 --> 02:24:09,240
Speaker 2: or a viewer, will decode it and it'll convert back

2232
02:24:09,280 --> 02:24:17,640
Speaker 2: into language again and an emotion. And that's I just

2233
02:24:17,760 --> 02:24:20,120
Speaker 2: try to make records with people who can communicate.

2234
02:24:20,280 --> 02:24:24,680
Speaker 1: Okay, going on the road, running blue note. Are you

2235
02:24:24,800 --> 02:24:26,600
Speaker 1: still available to produce albums?

2236
02:24:26,879 --> 02:24:29,560
Speaker 2: I am? What does it take?

2237
02:24:30,520 --> 02:24:32,560
Speaker 1: You have a limited amount of time or an unlimited

2238
02:24:32,560 --> 02:24:34,119
Speaker 1: amount of time if it's the right stuff.

2239
02:24:35,040 --> 02:24:41,120
Speaker 2: I got a limited amount of time. I couldn't I

2240
02:24:41,160 --> 02:24:43,720
Speaker 2: couldn't do another Stones album if they wanted me to,

2241
02:24:43,879 --> 02:24:45,800
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, I don't have that kind of time.

2242
02:24:46,280 --> 02:24:49,760
Speaker 2: Try it. You know, my favorite album, man, one of

2243
02:24:49,760 --> 02:24:52,800
Speaker 2: my favorite albums I was Blue and Lonesome, which is

2244
02:24:52,800 --> 02:24:57,160
Speaker 2: the last finished record that was three days.

2245
02:24:58,720 --> 02:25:02,880
Speaker 1: I like those kind of records, but you know there's

2246
02:25:02,879 --> 02:25:05,200
Speaker 1: something you can capture in three days to boot.

2247
02:25:05,320 --> 02:25:05,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2248
02:25:05,840 --> 02:25:09,920
Speaker 1: Okay, So you're a musician. You talk about going on

2249
02:25:09,959 --> 02:25:13,560
Speaker 1: the road, going on to make these Stones records.

2250
02:25:14,440 --> 02:25:15,640
Speaker 2: How do you have a.

2251
02:25:15,600 --> 02:25:19,000
Speaker 1: Family and raise your kids and have them be reasonable?

2252
02:25:19,040 --> 02:25:23,320
Speaker 2: How do you balance that out? Well? You do it.

2253
02:25:23,360 --> 02:25:29,039
Speaker 2: You make the effort. When when my youngest kids, Solomon

2254
02:25:29,440 --> 02:25:34,680
Speaker 2: sal was produced Beyonce, really, all my kids are musicians

2255
02:25:34,720 --> 02:25:40,480
Speaker 2: and they're all I'll produce and I'll play. So when

2256
02:25:40,800 --> 02:25:44,959
Speaker 2: I dropped them at USC, which when all three of

2257
02:25:44,959 --> 02:25:47,920
Speaker 2: my kids went to USC and they all graduated, only

2258
02:25:48,040 --> 02:25:55,720
Speaker 2: Henry graduated. Uh, family tradition, right, rights. But dropping them

2259
02:25:55,720 --> 02:25:59,199
Speaker 2: off is maybe one of the worst days you're gonna

2260
02:25:59,360 --> 02:26:02,160
Speaker 2: have and you're your life. It's like you've lost your kid.

2261
02:26:02,600 --> 02:26:10,600
Speaker 2: It's dark for a parent. And I remember tearfully saying

2262
02:26:10,680 --> 02:26:16,920
Speaker 2: to him, I said, look, man, it was always my

2263
02:26:17,000 --> 02:26:19,720
Speaker 2: intention to be around more, and I'm sorry I wasn't

2264
02:26:20,400 --> 02:26:23,560
Speaker 2: and soals just such a sweet guy man, He said, Well,

2265
02:26:24,400 --> 02:26:27,360
Speaker 2: there's any consolation to you, He said, I remember about

2266
02:26:27,480 --> 02:26:31,800
Speaker 2: twenty things from when I was twelve and under and

2267
02:26:31,840 --> 02:26:41,880
Speaker 2: you were there for all of them. Wow, And so yeah,

2268
02:26:41,920 --> 02:26:45,040
Speaker 2: I missed stuff, but I guess I was there. Okay.

2269
02:26:45,200 --> 02:26:49,680
Speaker 1: Just a couple more questions. Hey, do you ever go

2270
02:26:49,879 --> 02:26:51,400
Speaker 1: on a traditional vacation?

2271
02:26:53,000 --> 02:27:00,360
Speaker 2: Ah? No, okay?

2272
02:27:01,440 --> 02:27:06,120
Speaker 1: Is music all consuming? Or do you have other passions?

2273
02:27:06,200 --> 02:27:10,280
Speaker 1: Or do you watch streaming TV? Read books? What your

2274
02:27:10,520 --> 02:27:11,600
Speaker 1: everyday life look like?

2275
02:27:13,320 --> 02:27:15,720
Speaker 2: I'm pretty much in it all the time. I got

2276
02:27:15,800 --> 02:27:18,760
Speaker 2: three or four things going on. Last night at midnight

2277
02:27:18,920 --> 02:27:23,080
Speaker 2: I was I do two radio shows. You know, you

2278
02:27:23,160 --> 02:27:26,640
Speaker 2: gotta like you prepared for this. There's research that goes on.

2279
02:27:26,720 --> 02:27:29,200
Speaker 2: It takes it takes time. I did a I do

2280
02:27:29,280 --> 02:27:32,120
Speaker 2: a two hour live radio show every Friday night on

2281
02:27:32,200 --> 02:27:35,640
Speaker 2: a station called wd E T, the NPR station in Detroit.

2282
02:27:37,600 --> 02:27:39,800
Speaker 2: And it's work. You know, it's okay.

2283
02:27:39,840 --> 02:27:42,560
Speaker 1: So if someone is not in Detroit, how can they

2284
02:27:42,640 --> 02:27:43,280
Speaker 1: hear it?

2285
02:27:43,240 --> 02:27:45,480
Speaker 2: A streams on wd et dot org.

2286
02:27:45,840 --> 02:27:47,600
Speaker 1: And is it available after you do it?

2287
02:27:47,720 --> 02:27:49,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, for a couple of weeks and then I do

2288
02:27:49,520 --> 02:27:53,680
Speaker 2: them every f so what is the show. It's pretty

2289
02:27:53,720 --> 02:27:58,160
Speaker 2: free for him. I play everything from Albert Eiler to

2290
02:27:59,400 --> 02:28:00,680
Speaker 2: you know her Hermits.

2291
02:28:03,080 --> 02:28:04,720
Speaker 1: What's your favorite Herman's Hermits song?

2292
02:28:05,720 --> 02:28:08,959
Speaker 2: I like, can't you Hear My Heartbeat? It's pretty great. Uh,

2293
02:28:10,080 --> 02:28:11,920
Speaker 2: I just I was just watching him the other night.

2294
02:28:11,959 --> 02:28:14,240
Speaker 2: He was at some so on some kind of cruise.

2295
02:28:15,040 --> 02:28:15,879
Speaker 2: He's a badass.

2296
02:28:16,120 --> 02:28:19,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he knows what he's doing and he's got

2297
02:28:19,080 --> 02:28:21,640
Speaker 1: a sense that you were about himself. Somewhat it works.

2298
02:28:21,640 --> 02:28:23,920
Speaker 2: He's a good guy. Yeah, I really I thought he

2299
02:28:23,959 --> 02:28:27,000
Speaker 2: was quite good. He's hitting all the notes and yeah,

2300
02:28:27,200 --> 02:28:29,920
Speaker 2: can't you hear my heartbeat? Listen to people? Pretty great song.

2301
02:28:30,080 --> 02:28:34,039
Speaker 1: Phenomenal, Yeah, phenomenal. I was going to say, you know

2302
02:28:34,080 --> 02:28:36,879
Speaker 1: when first it was Missus Brown, but really it's listened

2303
02:28:36,879 --> 02:28:39,560
Speaker 1: to people. Just the sound of that record came out

2304
02:28:39,560 --> 02:28:42,320
Speaker 1: in the winter. Just to go back a step, the

2305
02:28:42,360 --> 02:28:47,400
Speaker 1: best Stones record is other than the ones you made.

2306
02:28:47,320 --> 02:28:48,600
Speaker 1: You're taking those off the board?

2307
02:28:51,920 --> 02:28:56,080
Speaker 2: Well late come around more to Between the Buttons. I

2308
02:28:56,080 --> 02:28:59,560
Speaker 2: think Between the button's pretty great. But I you know,

2309
02:29:00,040 --> 02:29:02,480
Speaker 2: you got a rank. I don't know that anyone's made

2310
02:29:02,480 --> 02:29:05,000
Speaker 2: a better record than Beggars Banquet. Or let it bleed.

2311
02:29:05,120 --> 02:29:06,160
Speaker 2: You know, I'm with you.

2312
02:29:06,480 --> 02:29:08,320
Speaker 1: People talk about sticky fingers. I don't want to say

2313
02:29:08,360 --> 02:29:12,400
Speaker 1: anything negative about sticky fingers, but let it bleed unbelievable

2314
02:29:12,680 --> 02:29:15,000
Speaker 1: and at dis laid date. I don't want to sound

2315
02:29:15,040 --> 02:29:17,039
Speaker 1: like a hipster, but Eggs on Main Street is really

2316
02:29:17,360 --> 02:29:18,080
Speaker 1: really something.

2317
02:29:18,240 --> 02:29:21,680
Speaker 2: It's pretty cool. I'll go through different phases with it.

2318
02:29:21,720 --> 02:29:24,040
Speaker 2: And it's cool because I've been able to listen to

2319
02:29:24,080 --> 02:29:28,200
Speaker 2: it with them, you know, and I've played records. Keith

2320
02:29:28,240 --> 02:29:31,000
Speaker 2: once gave me a verbal tour through Exile and Okay

2321
02:29:31,000 --> 02:29:31,680
Speaker 2: Street just.

2322
02:29:31,600 --> 02:29:34,520
Speaker 1: To hang in there. Just want to see his face

2323
02:29:35,280 --> 02:29:36,520
Speaker 1: what he say about that.

2324
02:29:36,640 --> 02:29:37,279
Speaker 2: I don't remember.

2325
02:29:38,720 --> 02:29:41,320
Speaker 1: That is such an eerie record. I think one of

2326
02:29:41,360 --> 02:29:45,760
Speaker 1: the other problems is, you know, they sent me these

2327
02:29:45,879 --> 02:29:48,080
Speaker 1: really great genial X speakers.

2328
02:29:48,120 --> 02:29:50,400
Speaker 2: No one would have speakers like this for your computer.

2329
02:29:50,840 --> 02:29:53,680
Speaker 1: I think it's retail, like sixteen hundred dollars or something.

2330
02:29:54,480 --> 02:29:56,800
Speaker 1: So those are really good. And if you're listening in

2331
02:29:57,000 --> 02:30:00,600
Speaker 1: high res, you know whatever, that's great. But I fired

2332
02:30:00,680 --> 02:30:03,800
Speaker 1: up the big rig the other day, which is not

2333
02:30:04,000 --> 02:30:08,520
Speaker 1: far away. They sound different when you play these records.

2334
02:30:08,560 --> 02:30:12,199
Speaker 1: They take up the whole room. The experience is different

2335
02:30:12,520 --> 02:30:14,880
Speaker 1: from listening on headphones or earbuds.

2336
02:30:14,920 --> 02:30:18,480
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and listening to vinyl too. It's a great

2337
02:30:19,320 --> 02:30:22,400
Speaker 2: In the last few years, we cracked the code on

2338
02:30:23,040 --> 02:30:24,000
Speaker 2: pressing good vinyl.

2339
02:30:24,959 --> 02:30:29,240
Speaker 1: Just just just with this deep Okay. If a record

2340
02:30:29,360 --> 02:30:34,040
Speaker 1: is cut digitally, yeah, does it make any sense to

2341
02:30:34,120 --> 02:30:36,840
Speaker 1: press it on vinyl. I'm talking about I don't an

2342
02:30:36,840 --> 02:30:37,959
Speaker 1: audio level forget.

2343
02:30:38,200 --> 02:30:42,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yeah, uh it does. It's not gonna sound

2344
02:30:42,480 --> 02:30:44,760
Speaker 2: the same as it does coming from analog tape.

2345
02:30:45,400 --> 02:30:48,199
Speaker 1: Well, it's gonna you know, as you talk to the experts,

2346
02:30:48,200 --> 02:30:50,080
Speaker 1: you say, well, vinyl has a sound.

2347
02:30:50,600 --> 02:30:52,600
Speaker 2: Vinyl has a sound. By the way, it's the sound

2348
02:30:52,640 --> 02:30:56,040
Speaker 2: of it. You could call it distortion. I'm gonna yeah,

2349
02:30:56,080 --> 02:30:59,960
Speaker 2: it's just a distortion. Is great, right, Jimmy Hendrix, Right, great,

2350
02:31:00,120 --> 02:31:03,680
Speaker 2: you said MC five great use of distortion. So the

2351
02:31:03,840 --> 02:31:06,320
Speaker 2: distortion is not a bad thing, But as far as

2352
02:31:06,360 --> 02:31:10,520
Speaker 2: it being an accurate reflection of what the thing sounds like, no,

2353
02:31:11,640 --> 02:31:14,760
Speaker 2: But I love vinyl and there are ways to make

2354
02:31:14,800 --> 02:31:20,080
Speaker 2: great vinyl. You know, I grew up producing vinyl records.

2355
02:31:20,080 --> 02:31:22,039
Speaker 2: That's where I started, right, So when I first started

2356
02:31:22,040 --> 02:31:24,879
Speaker 2: a Blue Note it's our seventy fifth anniversary picked one

2357
02:31:24,920 --> 02:31:28,800
Speaker 2: hundred records to remaster and get out on vinyl, which

2358
02:31:28,840 --> 02:31:34,080
Speaker 2: I thought would be wildly appreciated. I was wildly criticized

2359
02:31:34,120 --> 02:31:39,520
Speaker 2: because they didn't sound great to audio files. I'm not

2360
02:31:39,600 --> 02:31:40,560
Speaker 2: really an audio file.

2361
02:31:40,600 --> 02:31:42,480
Speaker 1: Wait, wait, just break it down a little bit. But

2362
02:31:42,680 --> 02:31:45,400
Speaker 1: forget the audio fields, which is a world done to itself.

2363
02:31:46,360 --> 02:31:49,160
Speaker 1: Did they prefer the original pressings?

2364
02:31:50,440 --> 02:31:52,200
Speaker 2: I don't know. I just know we got a lot

2365
02:31:52,200 --> 02:31:55,280
Speaker 2: of criticism over it. And then what happened was we

2366
02:31:55,680 --> 02:31:58,920
Speaker 2: had been licensing the masters out to a company called

2367
02:31:59,000 --> 02:32:03,920
Speaker 2: Music Matters who were doing audio file vinyl, and so

2368
02:32:03,959 --> 02:32:06,880
Speaker 2: I started listening to those and I'm like, Wow, in

2369
02:32:06,920 --> 02:32:09,920
Speaker 2: the world do they make this happen? And I finally

2370
02:32:09,959 --> 02:32:12,320
Speaker 2: met the guy, a guy named Joe Hurley masters with

2371
02:32:12,440 --> 02:32:17,640
Speaker 2: Kevin Gray, and I was just in awe of him.

2372
02:32:17,840 --> 02:32:20,480
Speaker 2: I really couldn't figure out what he was doing. But

2373
02:32:20,600 --> 02:32:24,360
Speaker 2: I said, instead of licensing from why don't you come

2374
02:32:24,400 --> 02:32:29,320
Speaker 2: to work with us and and we'll do audio file ersion.

2375
02:32:29,440 --> 02:32:32,080
Speaker 2: So we started doing that. It's called the Tone Poet series.

2376
02:32:32,240 --> 02:32:38,160
Speaker 2: It's been immensely popular, and Joe knows how to press vinyl,

2377
02:32:38,440 --> 02:32:41,120
Speaker 2: and the audio file is happy. They're thrilled. Yeah, I

2378
02:32:41,120 --> 02:32:41,920
Speaker 2: haven't seen a.

2379
02:32:41,879 --> 02:32:44,760
Speaker 1: Bad word so do you have any idea with the

2380
02:32:44,800 --> 02:32:46,040
Speaker 1: secret sauces?

2381
02:32:45,879 --> 02:32:48,640
Speaker 2: It's no one thing. But I can tell you one

2382
02:32:48,640 --> 02:32:51,840
Speaker 2: thing he taught me I never considered I don't think

2383
02:32:51,879 --> 02:32:56,280
Speaker 2: anyone considered this before. He believes that individual presses have

2384
02:32:56,360 --> 02:32:59,920
Speaker 2: a sound, so it could be by the same manufacturer.

2385
02:33:01,720 --> 02:33:04,400
Speaker 2: And if you apply it to like musical instruments, every

2386
02:33:04,440 --> 02:33:07,480
Speaker 2: fender strat sounds different. It's an individual piece of wood. Man,

2387
02:33:07,720 --> 02:33:10,120
Speaker 2: two pieces of wood, They're all going to have a

2388
02:33:10,160 --> 02:33:13,360
Speaker 2: different characteristic, even if you put the same pickups. And

2389
02:33:13,400 --> 02:33:17,039
Speaker 2: by the way, if human beings winding the pickups, each

2390
02:33:17,080 --> 02:33:20,520
Speaker 2: pickup's going to sound a little different too. So why

2391
02:33:20,560 --> 02:33:24,920
Speaker 2: wouldn't a press. And he's found a press that he

2392
02:33:25,000 --> 02:33:27,560
Speaker 2: thinks is the most conducive in the world too. Is

2393
02:33:27,600 --> 02:33:33,840
Speaker 2: that something you can reveal RTI in Oh huh. And

2394
02:33:33,879 --> 02:33:36,600
Speaker 2: they do an incredible job of plating two plating You

2395
02:33:36,600 --> 02:33:38,440
Speaker 2: can change everything that Have you ever been to a

2396
02:33:38,480 --> 02:33:43,240
Speaker 2: pressing plan? You see the plating process. It's alchemy, man,

2397
02:33:43,320 --> 02:33:46,879
Speaker 2: it's mind blowing. You take this lacquer that's that you've

2398
02:33:46,959 --> 02:33:51,360
Speaker 2: carved on a lathe, you spray it perfectly with the silver,

2399
02:33:51,840 --> 02:33:56,120
Speaker 2: you dip it overnight in a bath of liquid nickel.

2400
02:33:56,240 --> 02:33:58,680
Speaker 2: That's got to be a two hundred eight degrees, not

2401
02:33:58,760 --> 02:34:01,600
Speaker 2: two hundred and nine, that two hundred and seven, and

2402
02:34:01,680 --> 02:34:06,800
Speaker 2: the nickel gravitates to the to the silver plated lacquer

2403
02:34:07,040 --> 02:34:11,160
Speaker 2: and forms a perfect mirror image, and that becomes you know,

2404
02:34:11,240 --> 02:34:17,640
Speaker 2: your mother of the stamper. It's alchemy, it's incredible and

2405
02:34:17,640 --> 02:34:20,800
Speaker 2: and there's so many variables in that. So every step

2406
02:34:20,800 --> 02:34:24,039
Speaker 2: of the way, you got to have someone who's willing

2407
02:34:24,120 --> 02:34:27,320
Speaker 2: to make sure that the nickel bath is two hundred

2408
02:34:27,320 --> 02:34:30,039
Speaker 2: and eight degrees exactly and it stays there. You have

2409
02:34:30,080 --> 02:34:32,280
Speaker 2: to have a plant that's willing to throw out a

2410
02:34:32,280 --> 02:34:34,400
Speaker 2: batch of records if they don't sound right and just

2411
02:34:34,520 --> 02:34:37,600
Speaker 2: eat the cost. That's that's one of the main differences

2412
02:34:37,640 --> 02:34:40,560
Speaker 2: between a great plant who's going to be a hack

2413
02:34:40,600 --> 02:34:43,119
Speaker 2: and just make you pay for any garbage, or who's

2414
02:34:43,160 --> 02:34:45,880
Speaker 2: going to have quality control. RTI is one of the

2415
02:34:45,920 --> 02:34:47,720
Speaker 2: best plants on the face of the earth.

2416
02:34:55,400 --> 02:34:58,920
Speaker 1: So on these records, catalog records, Yeah, how much vinyl

2417
02:34:58,959 --> 02:35:00,240
Speaker 1: do you press?

2418
02:35:01,640 --> 02:35:03,080
Speaker 2: We can do twenty thousand of them.

2419
02:35:04,160 --> 02:35:07,520
Speaker 1: And you know there's much more capacity than there used

2420
02:35:07,560 --> 02:35:12,039
Speaker 1: to be. Is your relationship and volumes such that you

2421
02:35:12,080 --> 02:35:13,720
Speaker 1: can get all the stuff pressed in time.

2422
02:35:15,160 --> 02:35:20,320
Speaker 2: The delay times are coming down, and you build relationships

2423
02:35:20,320 --> 02:35:24,560
Speaker 2: with plants where that they'll help you. Artier has been

2424
02:35:24,600 --> 02:35:26,160
Speaker 2: real good to us. A few other plants have been

2425
02:35:26,160 --> 02:35:30,240
Speaker 2: good to us. But we do all the all the

2426
02:35:31,040 --> 02:35:34,040
Speaker 2: all the all the tone poet stuff. It's mastered by

2427
02:35:34,120 --> 02:35:39,000
Speaker 2: Kevin Gray at his place and manufactured at Artier.

2428
02:35:39,879 --> 02:35:42,039
Speaker 1: Okay, do you have a great stereo at.

2429
02:35:41,920 --> 02:35:46,400
Speaker 2: Home, not like Joe Harley, who's got you know, like

2430
02:35:46,800 --> 02:35:50,360
Speaker 2: the Wilsons whatever table? Yeah, but okay, you don't have

2431
02:35:50,400 --> 02:35:53,280
Speaker 2: a boom box either. I go to your house. Yeah,

2432
02:35:53,360 --> 02:35:56,360
Speaker 2: you're going to play me two records to say, the

2433
02:35:56,520 --> 02:35:58,480
Speaker 2: sound on these is unbelievable.

2434
02:35:58,600 --> 02:36:02,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, other than Blue Note, what would you play?

2435
02:36:03,720 --> 02:36:06,160
Speaker 2: You remember everyone used to play The Night Fly by

2436
02:36:06,160 --> 02:36:14,920
Speaker 2: Donald Fagan that that's still a pretty great sound record. Uh. Well,

2437
02:36:15,959 --> 02:36:18,160
Speaker 2: I don't really show off the things. But for my

2438
02:36:18,240 --> 02:36:22,520
Speaker 2: own reference, uh, I play Born and Raised, the John

2439
02:36:22,520 --> 02:36:26,240
Speaker 2: Mayer record. I play something I know you know I'll play.

2440
02:36:26,600 --> 02:36:28,600
Speaker 2: I'm proud of that record. Born and Raised. John Mayer

2441
02:36:28,680 --> 02:36:29,640
Speaker 2: is a bad motherfucker.

2442
02:36:29,879 --> 02:36:32,800
Speaker 1: Okay, just to stay on John Mayer. You made one

2443
02:36:32,840 --> 02:36:36,000
Speaker 1: record with him, I made three records. Okay, what was

2444
02:36:36,400 --> 02:36:37,520
Speaker 1: was that the first born and.

2445
02:36:37,520 --> 02:36:39,280
Speaker 2: Raised, Born and raised the first one. Then we did

2446
02:36:39,360 --> 02:36:42,440
Speaker 2: Paradise Valley and we did Sad Rock during COVID.

2447
02:36:44,040 --> 02:36:47,879
Speaker 1: So who have you not produced that you have a

2448
02:36:47,920 --> 02:36:50,640
Speaker 1: hankrey for it? Mean you've been to the mountaintop with

2449
02:36:50,720 --> 02:36:54,000
Speaker 1: the Stones. But if I said, forget about Blue note

2450
02:36:54,080 --> 02:36:57,000
Speaker 1: your schedule, we're dreaming here, you know, who would you want?

2451
02:36:57,000 --> 02:36:57,200
Speaker 2: Who?

2452
02:36:57,520 --> 02:36:59,000
Speaker 1: I think my point is clear, who would you want

2453
02:36:59,000 --> 02:36:59,440
Speaker 1: to work with?

2454
02:37:01,040 --> 02:37:04,200
Speaker 2: Well, I've pretty much been to my bucket list of

2455
02:37:04,280 --> 02:37:06,879
Speaker 2: living people. You know. I wish Muddy Waters to come back.

2456
02:37:07,280 --> 02:37:12,360
Speaker 2: I wish John Lennon would come back, but they're not

2457
02:37:12,400 --> 02:37:16,640
Speaker 2: coming back. I like people who are really expressive. I

2458
02:37:17,360 --> 02:37:20,039
Speaker 2: played live with Miley Cyrus. I thought she was awesome.

2459
02:37:21,000 --> 02:37:23,120
Speaker 2: I'd make a record with her in a minute. Yeah,

2460
02:37:23,480 --> 02:37:24,680
Speaker 2: that's something I think it's great.

2461
02:37:24,840 --> 02:37:27,440
Speaker 1: Let's just assume you make a record with Miley Cris.

2462
02:37:27,760 --> 02:37:31,520
Speaker 1: She brings her talent. Is your goal to get that talent?

2463
02:37:31,720 --> 02:37:33,720
Speaker 1: Or do you say I have a vision where I

2464
02:37:33,720 --> 02:37:35,039
Speaker 1: can take my Lee Cris.

2465
02:37:35,360 --> 02:37:37,080
Speaker 2: I don't do that to anybody. I wouldn't do that

2466
02:37:37,240 --> 02:37:39,400
Speaker 2: to a new artist that no one's ever heard of.

2467
02:37:39,520 --> 02:37:42,959
Speaker 2: That's not my style of producing. My style producing very specific.

2468
02:37:43,280 --> 02:37:45,920
Speaker 2: I try to sit with an artist and figure out

2469
02:37:46,240 --> 02:37:49,200
Speaker 2: what they're hearing in their head, and I try to

2470
02:37:49,240 --> 02:37:50,760
Speaker 2: help them get there.

2471
02:37:50,879 --> 02:37:54,240
Speaker 1: Just how would you uncover what they're hearing in their head?

2472
02:37:55,520 --> 02:37:59,160
Speaker 2: You talk, you play records, What do you think of

2473
02:37:59,160 --> 02:38:01,760
Speaker 2: this sound like? You like the way this record sounds?

2474
02:38:01,800 --> 02:38:08,200
Speaker 2: You just spend time and talk about things. I worked

2475
02:38:08,200 --> 02:38:13,440
Speaker 2: with Waylon Jennings, and I know what his records sound like.

2476
02:38:13,480 --> 02:38:17,800
Speaker 2: But what do you want to do? He said he

2477
02:38:17,920 --> 02:38:23,800
Speaker 2: wanted he liked Mercy Bob Dylan record Daniel Daniel, and

2478
02:38:23,840 --> 02:38:28,800
Speaker 2: it's it's Bob with some great songs, singing beautifully and

2479
02:38:29,280 --> 02:38:36,800
Speaker 2: uh and the atmospheric things that Daniel specializes in. All right,

2480
02:38:37,080 --> 02:38:39,320
Speaker 2: I get that, all right? So we make of Waylon

2481
02:38:39,400 --> 02:38:43,520
Speaker 2: Jennings record with with atmosphere and and we did that.

2482
02:38:43,600 --> 02:38:45,560
Speaker 2: It's a pretty cool record, and he was thrilled with it.

2483
02:38:46,040 --> 02:38:50,240
Speaker 2: And if I have to be the one to provide

2484
02:38:50,480 --> 02:38:52,680
Speaker 2: the vibe and the vision, I don't do the record.

2485
02:38:53,400 --> 02:38:56,400
Speaker 2: I'm not interested that. I like working with artists who

2486
02:38:56,480 --> 02:39:00,640
Speaker 2: have vision and an idea, and I like helping them

2487
02:39:00,720 --> 02:39:03,280
Speaker 2: realize that there's no right or wrong way to make

2488
02:39:03,280 --> 02:39:06,000
Speaker 2: a record. I don't judge any producers. Man, You know

2489
02:39:06,760 --> 02:39:12,560
Speaker 2: some people are a tour producers. You know. They they

2490
02:39:12,600 --> 02:39:15,199
Speaker 2: can play all the instruments, they lay down a guide vocals,

2491
02:39:15,200 --> 02:39:17,080
Speaker 2: and then you come in. They have you imitate that

2492
02:39:17,160 --> 02:39:20,480
Speaker 2: vocal and they have hits doing that. That's a that's

2493
02:39:20,480 --> 02:39:23,240
Speaker 2: a perfectly legitimate means of doing business. If that, If

2494
02:39:23,240 --> 02:39:26,240
Speaker 2: you can do that, it's just not it's not my

2495
02:39:26,400 --> 02:39:33,840
Speaker 2: strong suit. My strong suit is working with with great

2496
02:39:33,959 --> 02:39:37,240
Speaker 2: artists and helping them. They'll go k interesting they want.

2497
02:39:37,440 --> 02:39:41,080
Speaker 1: You know, back when the business was more comprehensible, there

2498
02:39:41,080 --> 02:39:45,600
Speaker 1: were legendary producers, and then there were engineers. Then a

2499
02:39:45,640 --> 02:39:49,800
Speaker 1: lot of the engineers became producers. Well, there are a

2500
02:39:49,840 --> 02:39:52,600
Speaker 1: lot of things the old traditional producers might do that

2501
02:39:52,640 --> 02:39:53,720
Speaker 1: an engineer doesn't.

2502
02:39:54,600 --> 02:39:54,720
Speaker 2: You know.

2503
02:39:54,879 --> 02:39:57,000
Speaker 1: First it might be well we need a bridge here

2504
02:39:57,160 --> 02:39:59,800
Speaker 1: or something like that. To what degree might you rear

2505
02:40:00,040 --> 02:40:02,760
Speaker 1: change or change the song in what degree? Why you

2506
02:40:03,000 --> 02:40:05,720
Speaker 1: actually participate, say well, let me play this for you,

2507
02:40:05,800 --> 02:40:07,840
Speaker 1: not writing the whole song, but let me play you

2508
02:40:07,920 --> 02:40:11,120
Speaker 1: this part, or why don't we change this line instead

2509
02:40:11,120 --> 02:40:11,320
Speaker 1: of this?

2510
02:40:11,480 --> 02:40:16,080
Speaker 2: How about this? Will you do that? Sure? Yeah, I

2511
02:40:16,120 --> 02:40:20,960
Speaker 2: won't write it for them without invitation. I think that's

2512
02:40:20,959 --> 02:40:23,440
Speaker 2: a bit presumptuous, and it's become suspect. It looks like

2513
02:40:23,480 --> 02:40:27,480
Speaker 2: a publishing grab. And I told the Stones when we

2514
02:40:27,520 --> 02:40:30,440
Speaker 2: first started, I said, I'm going to suggest things that

2515
02:40:30,520 --> 02:40:32,320
Speaker 2: have to do with songwriting. And I don't want you

2516
02:40:32,360 --> 02:40:35,000
Speaker 2: to think that I'm it's a money grab. It's because

2517
02:40:35,000 --> 02:40:37,920
Speaker 2: I think it'll make a better record. So consider me

2518
02:40:38,080 --> 02:40:40,879
Speaker 2: an editor, not a co writer, even if I do

2519
02:40:41,000 --> 02:40:47,360
Speaker 2: things that might be considered co writing. And yeah, I

2520
02:40:47,879 --> 02:40:50,440
Speaker 2: think it was a co writer on Love Shack, really,

2521
02:40:50,560 --> 02:40:53,400
Speaker 2: you know, but I said the same thing to be

2522
02:40:53,480 --> 02:40:56,680
Speaker 2: fifty two said. They gave me like this really long,

2523
02:40:56,760 --> 02:40:59,440
Speaker 2: twelve minute thing. They said, see if you can it's

2524
02:40:59,480 --> 02:41:02,920
Speaker 2: nothing the hook, There was no chorus, but all the

2525
02:41:02,959 --> 02:41:05,800
Speaker 2: parts were in there, and I went through and cut

2526
02:41:05,840 --> 02:41:07,760
Speaker 2: it up and made it a three and a half

2527
02:41:07,840 --> 02:41:11,240
Speaker 2: minute song. And that was just part of producing. I

2528
02:41:11,280 --> 02:41:17,160
Speaker 2: didn't think it. You know, I'd have a better car today. Maybe.

2529
02:41:17,840 --> 02:41:21,760
Speaker 1: Okay, you have interests in a lot of records that

2530
02:41:21,800 --> 02:41:25,880
Speaker 1: have sold records, so they're in the blacks something. Usually producers,

2531
02:41:25,920 --> 02:41:28,840
Speaker 1: they're paid from record one. What are you finding that

2532
02:41:28,920 --> 02:41:30,920
Speaker 1: you're accounted to accurately?

2533
02:41:34,440 --> 02:41:41,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems about right. You know, I've worked. I've

2534
02:41:41,080 --> 02:41:45,760
Speaker 2: been part of the Universal Music Group for fifteen years.

2535
02:41:45,920 --> 02:41:51,680
Speaker 2: I've never ever encountered a situation where someone was deliberately

2536
02:41:51,760 --> 02:41:56,640
Speaker 2: trying to steal an artists money. It's mythology I've never

2537
02:41:57,080 --> 02:42:02,720
Speaker 2: once had. I've only had a positive experience of Blue Note.

2538
02:42:03,120 --> 02:42:06,320
Speaker 2: Lucian Grange has never said to me, don you need

2539
02:42:06,360 --> 02:42:10,160
Speaker 2: to do this or do that. He's always supported stuff.

2540
02:42:11,240 --> 02:42:13,840
Speaker 2: You're doing a great job with Blue Note. You keep

2541
02:42:13,879 --> 02:42:16,600
Speaker 2: doing it and call me if you need help. You

2542
02:42:16,640 --> 02:42:19,800
Speaker 2: know that all the stuff that I used to fear

2543
02:42:19,920 --> 02:42:22,200
Speaker 2: about record companies. I used to hate record company. I thought,

2544
02:42:22,200 --> 02:42:24,879
Speaker 2: but the record company was the enemy until I started

2545
02:42:24,920 --> 02:42:27,640
Speaker 2: working there, and then I thought, wait a minute, the enemy.

2546
02:42:27,720 --> 02:42:30,600
Speaker 2: This is mostly kids in their twenties who love music

2547
02:42:30,840 --> 02:42:33,320
Speaker 2: and are willing to stay here till eleven o'clock at night.

2548
02:42:33,400 --> 02:42:36,800
Speaker 2: Maybe they haven't even met the artists, but they love

2549
02:42:36,879 --> 02:42:41,320
Speaker 2: the music so much they're willing to, you know, to

2550
02:42:42,520 --> 02:42:47,800
Speaker 2: fall on the sword to get this music heard. That's

2551
02:42:47,800 --> 02:42:50,360
Speaker 2: what a record company actually is. It's just the young

2552
02:42:50,360 --> 02:42:53,880
Speaker 2: people who are working there. That's the majority of what

2553
02:42:53,920 --> 02:42:56,840
Speaker 2: you encounter. So I've really had to change my thinking

2554
02:42:56,840 --> 02:42:59,440
Speaker 2: about it. Up until that point, I thought they're the

2555
02:42:59,440 --> 02:43:02,119
Speaker 2: people who come to the session give you terrible notes

2556
02:43:02,120 --> 02:43:04,120
Speaker 2: that ruin the record, and if it doesn't ruin the

2557
02:43:04,120 --> 02:43:06,039
Speaker 2: record and you have a hit, they steal your money.

2558
02:43:06,200 --> 02:43:08,560
Speaker 2: That's that was what I thought a record company was,

2559
02:43:08,879 --> 02:43:11,320
Speaker 2: and I really had to re examine that.

2560
02:43:12,640 --> 02:43:15,840
Speaker 1: Would you sell your rights?

2561
02:43:17,600 --> 02:43:20,160
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think so. Yeah. I don't have any sentimental

2562
02:43:20,200 --> 02:43:20,960
Speaker 2: attachment to it.

2563
02:43:21,080 --> 02:43:24,879
Speaker 1: I mean at this point, I must believe you've gotten offers. Yeah,

2564
02:43:24,879 --> 02:43:26,640
Speaker 1: I've had offers, So what would it take?

2565
02:43:26,800 --> 02:43:36,120
Speaker 2: Just the right number? Uh? Yeah, I mean I'm not

2566
02:43:36,160 --> 02:43:46,440
Speaker 2: opposed to it at all. A feel I feel a

2567
02:43:46,480 --> 02:43:50,080
Speaker 2: little bit weird. As a producer, your deals are sometimes

2568
02:43:50,120 --> 02:43:54,080
Speaker 2: with the artists directly, So like if I were to

2569
02:43:54,080 --> 02:43:57,400
Speaker 2: do a deal like that for what the Rolling Stones catalog,

2570
02:43:57,920 --> 02:44:01,120
Speaker 2: then they're going to have some people who are going

2571
02:44:01,200 --> 02:44:03,240
Speaker 2: to come in and audit all the time and not

2572
02:44:03,560 --> 02:44:06,560
Speaker 2: be as genial as I am about it. And I

2573
02:44:06,600 --> 02:44:09,520
Speaker 2: don't know that I love this guy, So I'm grateful

2574
02:44:09,560 --> 02:44:11,959
Speaker 2: to them or what they did. I'm not sure I

2575
02:44:11,959 --> 02:44:15,000
Speaker 2: would want to. Well, that's what happened with Hall and Oates.

2576
02:44:16,080 --> 02:44:16,160
Speaker 1: And.

2577
02:44:17,640 --> 02:44:22,640
Speaker 2: I get that and I understand how he felt. So

2578
02:44:23,080 --> 02:44:26,160
Speaker 2: that's really been my hesitation. You know, I'm going to

2579
02:44:26,200 --> 02:44:28,400
Speaker 2: bring some people going to come in and audit Bonnie.

2580
02:44:28,480 --> 02:44:31,280
Speaker 2: I never audited Bonnie right ever? Man, never is your

2581
02:44:31,320 --> 02:44:34,119
Speaker 2: deal with her? Yeah? Yeah? Okay.

2582
02:44:34,200 --> 02:44:36,360
Speaker 1: Final question, Gregory Porter?

2583
02:44:36,680 --> 02:44:37,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay.

2584
02:44:38,280 --> 02:44:41,160
Speaker 1: First time I heard him, saw it, you know, face

2585
02:44:41,200 --> 02:44:43,879
Speaker 1: to face. I didn't know anything about him other than

2586
02:44:43,959 --> 02:44:44,320
Speaker 1: his name.

2587
02:44:45,160 --> 02:44:49,720
Speaker 2: Mind blowing? Yeah. Is there any way I thought you

2588
02:44:49,760 --> 02:44:52,400
Speaker 2: had to think of capital right time? Yeah, that's right.

2589
02:44:52,640 --> 02:44:55,480
Speaker 1: I thought this guy was on the verge of superstardom.

2590
02:44:55,959 --> 02:44:59,720
Speaker 1: Is there any way or what is holding back?

2591
02:44:59,800 --> 02:45:01,920
Speaker 2: Or where are the stars? Not a line? Why is

2592
02:45:01,959 --> 02:45:05,480
Speaker 2: this guy not a household name in the United States?

2593
02:45:05,800 --> 02:45:09,520
Speaker 2: Because he had huge success in He sold a million records.

2594
02:45:09,520 --> 02:45:11,480
Speaker 2: The first album that came out in Blue Note sold

2595
02:45:11,520 --> 02:45:12,480
Speaker 2: a million.

2596
02:45:12,400 --> 02:45:15,280
Speaker 1: Records, So how many domestic how many for him.

2597
02:45:15,440 --> 02:45:19,720
Speaker 2: Forty thousand domestic rest forms? So he concentrated on where

2598
02:45:19,760 --> 02:45:22,000
Speaker 2: that audience was, and he spends most of his time.

2599
02:45:22,480 --> 02:45:26,480
Speaker 2: He lives in Bakersfield. I know he spends most of

2600
02:45:26,520 --> 02:45:30,920
Speaker 2: his time overseas. And if he really decided to focus

2601
02:45:31,840 --> 02:45:36,240
Speaker 2: a grass roots campaign over a long period of time

2602
02:45:37,240 --> 02:45:41,040
Speaker 2: on this country, I think you would be better now.

2603
02:45:41,080 --> 02:45:43,640
Speaker 2: But he's got you know, like four or five Grammys,

2604
02:45:43,680 --> 02:45:46,640
Speaker 2: and he can sell out the well turned theater. I

2605
02:45:46,760 --> 02:45:48,840
Speaker 2: just went to see mc Carnegie Hall this year. Sold

2606
02:45:48,840 --> 02:45:52,200
Speaker 2: that out. He does a Valentine's Day show there every year.

2607
02:45:55,800 --> 02:45:57,039
Speaker 2: I think he's pretty successful.

2608
02:45:59,120 --> 02:46:03,360
Speaker 1: Okay, then I'll add one more question once again, records.

2609
02:46:03,400 --> 02:46:08,000
Speaker 1: You haven't worked with a couple of records that these

2610
02:46:08,000 --> 02:46:17,080
Speaker 1: should have been giant hits and they fell through the cracks.

2611
02:46:17,080 --> 02:46:23,440
Speaker 2: Some of I love Buddy Miller's records. Yeah, Buddy should

2612
02:46:23,520 --> 02:46:27,680
Speaker 2: have more recognition. Buddy and Julie his wife, great lyricists. Man.

2613
02:46:27,800 --> 02:46:32,480
Speaker 2: You know, they're great songwriters and they're both incredibly soulful

2614
02:46:32,879 --> 02:46:37,000
Speaker 2: singers and musicians. Play a lot with Buddy. I've done

2615
02:46:37,000 --> 02:46:39,040
Speaker 2: a lot of kicks them. I play with them every

2616
02:46:39,120 --> 02:46:44,680
Speaker 2: year at the Americana Awards. I've done it, Yeah, fifteen

2617
02:46:44,760 --> 02:46:46,680
Speaker 2: sixteen years, I've gone and been in the house band.

2618
02:46:46,840 --> 02:46:52,920
Speaker 2: Mainly is I want to play with Buddy, and that's

2619
02:46:53,000 --> 02:46:55,560
Speaker 2: that's one guy deserving a wider recognition.

2620
02:46:57,200 --> 02:47:01,160
Speaker 1: Okay, keep adding more questions your every day life. Are

2621
02:47:01,160 --> 02:47:04,720
Speaker 1: people looking to get we put the right connotation here,

2622
02:47:05,400 --> 02:47:08,440
Speaker 1: not so much to get something from you, but are

2623
02:47:08,440 --> 02:47:13,280
Speaker 1: they looking for something, whether it be free work or whatever. Yeah,

2624
02:47:13,920 --> 02:47:15,920
Speaker 1: are you having to fend that often do you do

2625
02:47:16,000 --> 02:47:20,920
Speaker 1: that yourself? You don't have somebody else, you know.

2626
02:47:21,480 --> 02:47:25,600
Speaker 2: I remember, like it was yesterday, being in the position

2627
02:47:25,840 --> 02:47:31,640
Speaker 2: of needing someone to help me, right, I remember taking

2628
02:47:32,240 --> 02:47:35,320
Speaker 2: that before, Yeah, I remember taking that was and I

2629
02:47:35,440 --> 02:47:37,680
Speaker 2: was thing with the two songs to a public image

2630
02:47:37,720 --> 02:47:41,120
Speaker 2: show and Corner and John Lyden with it. Here's what

2631
02:47:41,120 --> 02:47:44,640
Speaker 2: we're doing. I think you'll dig it. It breaks my

2632
02:47:44,720 --> 02:47:48,600
Speaker 2: heart thinking of the desperation it takes to do that,

2633
02:47:48,760 --> 02:47:56,160
Speaker 2: to subject a guide to that, you know. So my

2634
02:47:56,240 --> 02:48:01,440
Speaker 2: heart breaks for people who've chosen a career like this.

2635
02:48:01,560 --> 02:48:04,400
Speaker 2: And I don't know why I've been so lucky, you know.

2636
02:48:04,640 --> 02:48:10,920
Speaker 2: And I know that in La, at any given moment

2637
02:48:11,000 --> 02:48:14,160
Speaker 2: in La, there's someone within one square mile of you

2638
02:48:14,440 --> 02:48:17,680
Speaker 2: who's great, who hasn't gotten the breaks for whatever reason.

2639
02:48:19,720 --> 02:48:23,039
Speaker 2: So I try to be as attentive as I can.

2640
02:48:23,560 --> 02:48:28,039
Speaker 2: I really sympathize with people in the position I have,

2641
02:48:28,080 --> 02:48:31,520
Speaker 2: and to present this thing. It's not a comfortable thing

2642
02:48:31,600 --> 02:48:37,240
Speaker 2: to do. And I hate saying no. That's that's the

2643
02:48:37,280 --> 02:48:40,920
Speaker 2: only I love the job. Man. Everybody has been great

2644
02:48:40,959 --> 02:48:44,680
Speaker 2: to me. I really enjoy doing it. I hate saying

2645
02:48:45,040 --> 02:48:47,119
Speaker 2: no to people. I've had to drop artists. A couple

2646
02:48:47,160 --> 02:48:49,800
Speaker 2: of times I haven't been able to do it with

2647
02:48:49,920 --> 02:48:51,720
Speaker 2: a crying and it's just.

2648
02:48:52,440 --> 02:48:56,360
Speaker 1: You drop them for purely economical reasons.

2649
02:48:56,800 --> 02:49:06,480
Speaker 2: Uh, well it it's not purely. It manifests itself in economically.

2650
02:49:07,879 --> 02:49:08,080
Speaker 2: I mean.

2651
02:49:08,080 --> 02:49:11,240
Speaker 1: What people also don't realize about this business is people

2652
02:49:11,240 --> 02:49:13,880
Speaker 1: don't want to work with assholes. So a lot of

2653
02:49:13,920 --> 02:49:17,120
Speaker 1: people don't know because they don't actually interact with these people. Hey,

2654
02:49:17,160 --> 02:49:18,640
Speaker 1: I don't care how talent you are, I just.

2655
02:49:18,560 --> 02:49:21,320
Speaker 2: Don't want to work with you. Whether it's stubborn or whatever.

2656
02:49:21,320 --> 02:49:24,040
Speaker 2: They hard to work with. I'm also luly that too,

2657
02:49:24,120 --> 02:49:29,320
Speaker 2: because I've been warned off of so many people about

2658
02:49:29,360 --> 02:49:32,000
Speaker 2: producing them. It's going to be a nightmare for you.

2659
02:49:32,040 --> 02:49:33,040
Speaker 2: And it was never a nightmare.

2660
02:49:33,040 --> 02:49:34,680
Speaker 1: I just had to have people said, oh, you know,

2661
02:49:34,720 --> 02:49:38,840
Speaker 1: I just mentioned one Ricky Lee Jones. Everybody said, oh

2662
02:49:38,920 --> 02:49:43,560
Speaker 1: yeah to her, she was the greatest. It was like,

2663
02:49:43,600 --> 02:49:46,640
Speaker 1: you know, we went to school together. So you try

2664
02:49:46,680 --> 02:49:50,600
Speaker 1: to tell yourself, but usually most of these people, it's

2665
02:49:50,600 --> 02:49:52,520
Speaker 1: not a one on one thing. Anyway, I was in

2666
02:49:52,600 --> 02:49:55,320
Speaker 1: the studio, I was the assistant engineer or something like that.

2667
02:49:56,080 --> 02:50:02,440
Speaker 2: It's if you treat people with respect, they usually return

2668
02:50:02,640 --> 02:50:09,320
Speaker 2: the favor. You know, you know, it's just simple basic stuff.

2669
02:50:09,400 --> 02:50:12,440
Speaker 2: Treat musicians the way you want to be treated in

2670
02:50:12,480 --> 02:50:17,840
Speaker 2: the like. One of the things is I was explaining

2671
02:50:17,879 --> 02:50:20,720
Speaker 2: to there was this kid who came with Ron Carter

2672
02:50:20,840 --> 02:50:25,400
Speaker 2: to the studio and I let him produce the overdub,

2673
02:50:25,520 --> 02:50:28,360
Speaker 2: sit there and talk to him on the talkback, just

2674
02:50:28,600 --> 02:50:32,360
Speaker 2: to get some experience doing it and understand what was involved.

2675
02:50:32,400 --> 02:50:35,360
Speaker 2: And I kept saying, keep your finger on the talkback button. Man,

2676
02:50:35,400 --> 02:50:38,879
Speaker 2: don't make the guy think he's here alone, that you're

2677
02:50:38,920 --> 02:50:44,160
Speaker 2: not listening to. Just be up. Just keep your finger

2678
02:50:44,200 --> 02:50:47,240
Speaker 2: on the button all the time and let him know

2679
02:50:47,320 --> 02:50:50,240
Speaker 2: what's going on all the time. That's just a common

2680
02:50:50,360 --> 02:50:52,240
Speaker 2: courtesy because I've been on the other side of it.

2681
02:50:52,280 --> 02:50:55,520
Speaker 2: I've been produced, I've been a session musician. You play

2682
02:50:55,560 --> 02:50:58,680
Speaker 2: something you think is great, and then there's silence for

2683
02:50:58,760 --> 02:51:02,280
Speaker 2: twenty seconds and you're just sitting there and limbo, like

2684
02:51:02,400 --> 02:51:05,480
Speaker 2: what And then they come back and say, let's try

2685
02:51:05,480 --> 02:51:09,840
Speaker 2: another one. Well those are all with that one. Give

2686
02:51:09,840 --> 02:51:14,800
Speaker 2: me some direction here. That felt pretty good to me.

2687
02:51:16,400 --> 02:51:19,680
Speaker 2: You sure you were paying attention, and you can you

2688
02:51:19,720 --> 02:51:23,480
Speaker 2: can lose people really easily. Uh, but yet you got

2689
02:51:23,520 --> 02:51:26,480
Speaker 2: to be empathetic and pay attention, and if you do that,

2690
02:51:27,000 --> 02:51:28,440
Speaker 2: they'll reward you.

2691
02:51:36,160 --> 02:51:40,080
Speaker 1: Well, you've certainly been empathetic and kept everybody's attention this afternoon.

2692
02:51:40,879 --> 02:51:42,880
Speaker 1: Don I want to thank you for taking this time

2693
02:51:42,920 --> 02:51:43,680
Speaker 1: with my audience.

2694
02:51:43,720 --> 02:51:45,680
Speaker 2: It's a pleasure, man, It's really good to talk to you.

2695
02:51:45,800 --> 02:51:48,760
Speaker 2: I think you're a great interviewer. We've we've talked about

2696
02:51:48,800 --> 02:51:53,480
Speaker 2: this before. I've actually, you know, I do a lot

2697
02:51:53,480 --> 02:51:57,600
Speaker 2: of interview viewing of other people, and I've studied your technique.

2698
02:51:57,920 --> 02:51:59,840
Speaker 2: You're you're, you're, you're really good.

2699
02:52:00,560 --> 02:52:05,199
Speaker 1: Well, two things I remember vividly doing that gig grammy

2700
02:52:05,280 --> 02:52:07,360
Speaker 1: time sixteen months ago, and you came up to me

2701
02:52:07,400 --> 02:52:11,199
Speaker 1: and he goes, I see what you're doing. That meant

2702
02:52:11,320 --> 02:52:14,000
Speaker 1: so much, right, I told my psychiatrist said, I gotta

2703
02:52:14,040 --> 02:52:20,280
Speaker 1: tell you this story now. Oh absolutely. I mean, first

2704
02:52:20,280 --> 02:52:24,520
Speaker 1: and foremost, being a writer is I don't want to

2705
02:52:24,560 --> 02:52:26,240
Speaker 1: say it's a lonely jump. First of all, I don't

2706
02:52:26,280 --> 02:52:27,800
Speaker 1: want don't put me in the camp of people who

2707
02:52:27,800 --> 02:52:30,760
Speaker 1: are normally right. I'm hearing from people all day long,

2708
02:52:31,480 --> 02:52:38,480
Speaker 1: but it's not the same as interacting, and most people

2709
02:52:38,840 --> 02:52:41,240
Speaker 1: are giving the audience what they want.

2710
02:52:41,600 --> 02:52:42,840
Speaker 2: There's way if you.

2711
02:52:42,879 --> 02:52:48,320
Speaker 1: Go out, you find forget the point. You don't always

2712
02:52:48,320 --> 02:52:50,680
Speaker 1: do it great yourself. I mean, if I do something

2713
02:52:50,720 --> 02:52:53,280
Speaker 1: that's eleven, I know. Can I do something that's eleven

2714
02:52:53,320 --> 02:52:56,760
Speaker 1: every day? No fucking way. But you know when you

2715
02:52:56,800 --> 02:53:00,440
Speaker 1: reach it. So when someone you know, this is back point,

2716
02:53:00,480 --> 02:53:02,680
Speaker 1: I mean talking more. I remember I was in a

2717
02:53:02,800 --> 02:53:06,520
Speaker 1: really bad spot thirty years ago. That's an understatement, really

2718
02:53:06,560 --> 02:53:10,560
Speaker 1: bad spot. First, since you mentioned the psychiatrist says, well,

2719
02:53:10,560 --> 02:53:14,040
Speaker 1: what's a fallback position? They go, there is no fallback position.

2720
02:53:14,840 --> 02:53:15,800
Speaker 1: This is it is.

2721
02:53:17,480 --> 02:53:19,359
Speaker 2: Nothing. Okay.

2722
02:53:19,680 --> 02:53:21,800
Speaker 1: The other thing is, well, what are you doing you

2723
02:53:21,840 --> 02:53:24,640
Speaker 1: know to sell this that I said. Listen, Whenever I

2724
02:53:24,760 --> 02:53:28,080
Speaker 1: tried to advance my career never works because the people.

2725
02:53:27,879 --> 02:53:29,199
Speaker 2: Don't get it.

2726
02:53:29,200 --> 02:53:32,000
Speaker 1: It's like someone says, come speak at my conference for

2727
02:53:32,080 --> 02:53:34,280
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, you pay me, I'll go. Is it'll

2728
02:53:34,320 --> 02:53:36,440
Speaker 1: be good for you, good for me? If I stay

2729
02:53:36,480 --> 02:53:39,520
Speaker 1: home and write something phenomenal, that will be good for

2730
02:53:39,600 --> 02:53:43,560
Speaker 1: me and all the benefits have come from that. So

2731
02:53:46,280 --> 02:53:49,440
Speaker 1: you're a smart guy, very smart and I'm not saying

2732
02:53:49,480 --> 02:53:53,320
Speaker 1: that to stroke you. So you got it because it's

2733
02:53:53,400 --> 02:53:58,480
Speaker 1: like I don't come with a list of questions. It's like,

2734
02:53:58,840 --> 02:54:01,200
Speaker 1: where are you going? To go and where are you

2735
02:54:01,200 --> 02:54:01,640
Speaker 1: gonna go?

2736
02:54:01,840 --> 02:54:02,600
Speaker 2: By? Save Doug?

2737
02:54:02,680 --> 02:54:04,119
Speaker 1: And I know shit, I want to cover. I got

2738
02:54:04,120 --> 02:54:08,760
Speaker 1: a circle in my brain. I'm coming back because you know,

2739
02:54:08,879 --> 02:54:10,320
Speaker 1: some of these people are friends of mine.

2740
02:54:10,360 --> 02:54:11,800
Speaker 2: But two things.

2741
02:54:12,160 --> 02:54:15,520
Speaker 1: We've had conversation only for one reason. I was talking

2742
02:54:15,560 --> 02:54:22,080
Speaker 1: to Peter Wolf. Peter Wolf, fascinating character, because gin me,

2743
02:54:22,160 --> 02:54:25,280
Speaker 1: your guys, what the fuck was going on with you

2744
02:54:25,680 --> 02:54:28,160
Speaker 1: that they done away wanted you?

2745
02:54:28,320 --> 02:54:28,680
Speaker 2: Okay?

2746
02:54:29,800 --> 02:54:31,760
Speaker 1: Some people, you know, you just got to take one

2747
02:54:31,800 --> 02:54:34,440
Speaker 1: look at him. That's not Peter Wolf. Not that he's

2748
02:54:34,440 --> 02:54:39,320
Speaker 1: an unattractive guy, okay, and your talk. I couldn't figure

2749
02:54:39,360 --> 02:54:43,279
Speaker 1: it out for a really long time. Is he's actually

2750
02:54:43,360 --> 02:54:48,200
Speaker 1: empathetic and interested, which almost I was at a party

2751
02:54:48,280 --> 02:54:50,400
Speaker 1: last night. I got somebody's life story. You know how

2752
02:54:50,480 --> 02:54:54,320
Speaker 1: much they asked me about me? Zero didn't even occur

2753
02:54:54,520 --> 02:54:57,760
Speaker 1: to them. Okay, not that I have to tell my story,

2754
02:54:58,200 --> 02:55:00,160
Speaker 1: but okay, I got your story. It's not like I'm

2755
02:55:00,200 --> 02:55:04,440
Speaker 1: dying to talk to you again. So those moments are

2756
02:55:04,560 --> 02:55:08,800
Speaker 1: few and far between when somebody gets it, and that's

2757
02:55:08,800 --> 02:55:11,680
Speaker 1: what you live for. There aren't enough of those moments.

2758
02:55:11,680 --> 02:55:13,680
Speaker 1: I think maybe in conventional work, you get paid, you

2759
02:55:13,720 --> 02:55:16,640
Speaker 1: get a big payday. That's good, but in creative work,

2760
02:55:16,680 --> 02:55:17,840
Speaker 1: you're waiting.

2761
02:55:17,520 --> 02:55:18,560
Speaker 2: For that moment.

2762
02:55:19,040 --> 02:55:21,320
Speaker 1: The other thing that I loved that you said was

2763
02:55:21,840 --> 02:55:27,600
Speaker 1: talked about getting the job and the copy repair. Everybody

2764
02:55:27,600 --> 02:55:30,320
Speaker 1: who's made it big time, they were all on the verge.

2765
02:55:30,320 --> 02:55:33,040
Speaker 1: You're giving up at some point. It's just really desperate.

2766
02:55:33,040 --> 02:55:35,280
Speaker 1: So in any event, circled back to the Peter Wolf thing.

2767
02:55:35,800 --> 02:55:37,800
Speaker 1: At the end, he's opening up you.

2768
02:55:37,920 --> 02:55:38,440
Speaker 2: He wrote a.

2769
02:55:38,400 --> 02:55:41,959
Speaker 1: Book and got a lot of press. It's a fucking

2770
02:55:42,000 --> 02:55:44,760
Speaker 1: book business, so we antiquate it, and they didn't press

2771
02:55:44,840 --> 02:55:47,280
Speaker 1: enough copies, so for like six weeks there are no

2772
02:55:47,280 --> 02:55:49,960
Speaker 1: books in the story. He's doing press and I'm talking

2773
02:55:49,959 --> 02:55:52,240
Speaker 1: to him about it. I didn't think twice I was

2774
02:55:52,280 --> 02:55:54,400
Speaker 1: gonna cut it off. All the emails and oh when

2775
02:55:54,400 --> 02:55:57,480
Speaker 1: you were talking to him about that. So when we

2776
02:55:57,560 --> 02:56:00,160
Speaker 1: started off, I mean, even like on these you know,

2777
02:56:00,200 --> 02:56:05,840
Speaker 1: i'd also think these philosophical points, like you're talking about

2778
02:56:05,879 --> 02:56:09,600
Speaker 1: the altruism, et cetera. I mean, there's right and left,

2779
02:56:09,879 --> 02:56:13,160
Speaker 1: red and blue. But if you're not invested. Most people

2780
02:56:13,200 --> 02:56:15,920
Speaker 1: are invested to the point where they can't stand back

2781
02:56:15,959 --> 02:56:21,080
Speaker 1: and see what it's really going on here, And you know,

2782
02:56:21,200 --> 02:56:25,720
Speaker 1: to get into that those are the topics that are interesting,

2783
02:56:26,320 --> 02:56:29,000
Speaker 1: whereas most people are how much money you make in

2784
02:56:29,120 --> 02:56:31,480
Speaker 1: where we going to dinner? And that's a great thing

2785
02:56:31,480 --> 02:56:35,160
Speaker 1: about music because it transcends that. What I always say is,

2786
02:56:35,160 --> 02:56:36,440
Speaker 1: you know, you could put a five year old in

2787
02:56:36,440 --> 02:56:38,920
Speaker 1: front of the TV watch a program. Did you like

2788
02:56:38,959 --> 02:56:39,400
Speaker 1: it to dinner?

2789
02:56:39,879 --> 02:56:40,039
Speaker 2: Oh?

2790
02:56:40,120 --> 02:56:43,480
Speaker 1: It wasn't believable, the acting was bad. You put somebody

2791
02:56:43,520 --> 02:56:45,240
Speaker 1: listen to record about it? As most they can say

2792
02:56:45,320 --> 02:56:47,400
Speaker 1: is had a good beat and I could dance to it.

2793
02:56:47,600 --> 02:56:50,520
Speaker 1: I love it right, But it has that power.

2794
02:56:50,640 --> 02:56:54,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's the greatest, man, It's absolutely essential.

2795
02:56:56,040 --> 02:56:57,800
Speaker 1: Do you have a go to track like when you're

2796
02:56:57,840 --> 02:56:59,080
Speaker 1: in a bad mood or something?

2797
02:56:59,240 --> 02:57:02,039
Speaker 2: I do. It's actually a Blue Note album. I've been

2798
02:57:02,040 --> 02:57:04,680
Speaker 2: going to it since it came out in sixty six.

2799
02:57:04,959 --> 02:57:07,520
Speaker 2: I think I bought it like sixty eight sixty nine

2800
02:57:08,200 --> 02:57:10,440
Speaker 2: Speak No Evil by Way in Shorter, which I think

2801
02:57:10,560 --> 02:57:16,880
Speaker 2: is my favorite record in the catalog side too. When

2802
02:57:16,920 --> 02:57:20,560
Speaker 2: I was nineteen, man, I was, I was, I dropped

2803
02:57:20,560 --> 02:57:22,520
Speaker 2: out of school, movedan I wanted to be in a

2804
02:57:22,520 --> 02:57:25,600
Speaker 2: band like the Stooges or the MC five. Only gig

2805
02:57:25,680 --> 02:57:29,680
Speaker 2: I could get was playing at a bowling alley in Ipsilanti, Michigan,

2806
02:57:30,280 --> 02:57:35,160
Speaker 2: with the band that was doing Carpenter's covers and things.

2807
02:57:35,600 --> 02:57:39,560
Speaker 2: I just felt like all my plans had gotten derailed.

2808
02:57:40,120 --> 02:57:43,040
Speaker 2: I get pretty lost. When I was feeling lost, I

2809
02:57:43,120 --> 02:57:45,520
Speaker 2: go back and I put on this album side to

2810
02:57:45,720 --> 02:57:49,720
Speaker 2: Speak No Evil, and I could relate to the players

2811
02:57:49,720 --> 02:57:53,640
Speaker 2: as individuals. Elvin Jones playing drums, Detroit guy, right, so

2812
02:57:53,720 --> 02:57:56,960
Speaker 2: I appreciated his energy. He's just a little too exuberant,

2813
02:57:57,280 --> 02:58:01,480
Speaker 2: and I thought, yeah, all right, I get that. Herbie Hancock,

2814
02:58:02,040 --> 02:58:05,320
Speaker 2: even in his twenties, probably knew more about harmony than

2815
02:58:06,120 --> 02:58:09,800
Speaker 2: any anybody around, you know. And I listen to what

2816
02:58:09,840 --> 02:58:11,840
Speaker 2: he's playing and think, all right, be smart. I'm a

2817
02:58:11,879 --> 02:58:14,800
Speaker 2: smart guy. I can relate to Herbie. But it was

2818
02:58:14,800 --> 02:58:18,959
Speaker 2: really Wayne. I'd hear a saxophone and didn't sound like saxophone. Didn't.

2819
02:58:19,000 --> 02:58:21,800
Speaker 2: I didn't hear reads or keys or technique or anything.

2820
02:58:21,920 --> 02:58:25,200
Speaker 2: I heard conversation. He was like he was speaking to me.

2821
02:58:25,240 --> 02:58:28,800
Speaker 2: And I imagine walking down Main Street in ann Arbor

2822
02:58:29,360 --> 02:58:31,879
Speaker 2: with Wayne Short and he's saying, like watch out for

2823
02:58:31,959 --> 02:58:34,480
Speaker 2: that guy, Like let's cross the street here and just

2824
02:58:34,600 --> 02:58:37,000
Speaker 2: keep walking. Don't look this cat and eye and like

2825
02:58:37,040 --> 02:58:40,000
Speaker 2: he was giving me directions. I had a duck and

2826
02:58:40,080 --> 02:58:45,600
Speaker 2: dive in life, and somehow all of that combined with

2827
02:58:45,680 --> 02:58:50,920
Speaker 2: this beautiful soul touch in music. By the time I

2828
02:58:50,959 --> 02:58:54,880
Speaker 2: get to the end of the side, I remembered who

2829
02:58:54,920 --> 02:58:58,560
Speaker 2: I was, who who I set out to be, and

2830
02:58:59,240 --> 02:59:02,000
Speaker 2: I knew how to get back on track, at least

2831
02:59:02,080 --> 02:59:05,760
Speaker 2: till the next time I got derailed right, and that

2832
02:59:05,920 --> 02:59:09,640
Speaker 2: was that was powerful, you know, And by the way,

2833
02:59:09,720 --> 02:59:10,840
Speaker 2: it still works. Man.

2834
02:59:11,080 --> 02:59:11,800
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, if I.

2835
02:59:11,720 --> 02:59:13,920
Speaker 2: Have a rough day, I'll put on that record. By

2836
02:59:13,959 --> 02:59:17,320
Speaker 2: the time I get from Hollywood to Santa Monica, I'm good.

2837
02:59:20,360 --> 02:59:24,879
Speaker 2: And thankfully, you know, we got to sign Wayne. We

2838
02:59:25,040 --> 02:59:27,240
Speaker 2: re signed him the Blue Note first year I was

2839
02:59:27,280 --> 02:59:30,040
Speaker 2: there and I made a couple of records, but him,

2840
02:59:30,040 --> 02:59:32,080
Speaker 2: I got to know him, beautiful guy. I got to

2841
02:59:32,080 --> 02:59:32,520
Speaker 2: tell him that.

2842
02:59:33,360 --> 02:59:36,200
Speaker 1: And really, well, it sounds like you got to tell

2843
02:59:36,240 --> 02:59:38,720
Speaker 1: the number of your heroes, got to tell Brian Wilson.

2844
02:59:39,640 --> 02:59:42,400
Speaker 1: Did you ever tell the Stones you were a fan? Sure?

2845
02:59:42,760 --> 02:59:46,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, they knew. I think fans make the best producers.

2846
02:59:46,320 --> 02:59:47,440
Speaker 2: I would find that reassuring.

2847
02:59:47,600 --> 02:59:49,840
Speaker 1: Are you trying to create a bond that that sort

2848
02:59:49,879 --> 02:59:50,800
Speaker 1: of separates you?

2849
02:59:52,800 --> 02:59:56,080
Speaker 2: I think that if you try to make the record

2850
02:59:56,640 --> 03:00:01,840
Speaker 2: that you would buy. That's that's that's that's good producing.

2851
03:00:03,440 --> 03:00:06,320
Speaker 2: You just got to assume that other people share your taste.

2852
03:00:06,600 --> 03:00:11,279
Speaker 1: Okay, but you're a very soulful guy who is warm.

2853
03:00:11,480 --> 03:00:14,280
Speaker 1: Is it important to make the musicians of the room

2854
03:00:14,720 --> 03:00:16,200
Speaker 1: feel that they're connecting with you.

2855
03:00:16,800 --> 03:00:20,000
Speaker 2: It's important to make them feel comfortable. They don't. I

2856
03:00:20,040 --> 03:00:22,560
Speaker 2: don't care whether they feel that they're connected. They're not

2857
03:00:22,560 --> 03:00:24,960
Speaker 2: making a record for me, they but I want them

2858
03:00:25,000 --> 03:00:29,200
Speaker 2: to feel is safe enough that if they take a

2859
03:00:29,280 --> 03:00:32,600
Speaker 2: chance on something and it fails and they fall off

2860
03:00:32,640 --> 03:00:36,600
Speaker 2: the cliff musically, that it's okay, get no, mad man,

2861
03:00:37,680 --> 03:00:40,040
Speaker 2: We'll do another take, you know, like but to feel

2862
03:00:40,040 --> 03:00:43,520
Speaker 2: comfortable to take the chance, so you don't just get

2863
03:00:44,640 --> 03:00:50,760
Speaker 2: you know, the biggest enemy making a record is good

2864
03:00:51,640 --> 03:00:54,120
Speaker 2: making a good record. There's no point in making a

2865
03:00:54,120 --> 03:00:56,760
Speaker 2: good record. Make it fucking great or don't make it.

2866
03:00:57,360 --> 03:01:04,960
Speaker 2: You know. Sometimes people have to always, man, you got

2867
03:01:04,959 --> 03:01:07,640
Speaker 2: to go the extra mile, put that little bit of

2868
03:01:07,680 --> 03:01:10,720
Speaker 2: extra something in there. And sometimes it takes a while

2869
03:01:10,760 --> 03:01:13,439
Speaker 2: to draw that out. And people have to be comfortable

2870
03:01:14,000 --> 03:01:15,720
Speaker 2: and feel that they're not going to be judged or

2871
03:01:15,760 --> 03:01:18,720
Speaker 2: look foolish. Shift if they try something and it doesn't work,

2872
03:01:19,480 --> 03:01:21,600
Speaker 2: So that's what I care about.

2873
03:01:21,680 --> 03:01:23,320
Speaker 1: Well, do you have a technique to push them to

2874
03:01:23,320 --> 03:01:24,039
Speaker 1: get into grate?

2875
03:01:24,240 --> 03:01:29,640
Speaker 2: You know, it's really weird. I've been told that this happens,

2876
03:01:29,680 --> 03:01:32,039
Speaker 2: but it's nothing I do deliberately. I don't know what

2877
03:01:32,160 --> 03:01:35,920
Speaker 2: I do, but something puts people at ease. I'm aware

2878
03:01:36,160 --> 03:01:38,800
Speaker 2: of the phenomena, but I don't know. I don't know

2879
03:01:39,080 --> 03:01:42,039
Speaker 2: why it happens. There's nothing deliberate.

2880
03:01:42,280 --> 03:01:43,000
Speaker 1: It's like Mick.

2881
03:01:43,480 --> 03:01:48,000
Speaker 2: I remember telling him he's got something in his voice.

2882
03:01:48,040 --> 03:01:51,400
Speaker 2: He's audiogenic. I don't know what that word means. Well,

2883
03:01:51,440 --> 03:01:55,080
Speaker 2: you know what photogenic is Claudia Schiffer on an ad

2884
03:01:55,320 --> 03:01:58,560
Speaker 2: and she jumps out, catches your eye because she just

2885
03:01:58,600 --> 03:02:01,640
Speaker 2: got this quality. And that's why she's a popular model,

2886
03:02:01,680 --> 03:02:04,600
Speaker 2: because it draws your attention to the genes they're trying

2887
03:02:04,640 --> 03:02:09,240
Speaker 2: to sell. That's photogenic. Audiogenic means your voice leaps out

2888
03:02:09,240 --> 03:02:13,200
Speaker 2: of the speakers. And some people just have this thing.

2889
03:02:13,440 --> 03:02:16,200
Speaker 2: It's a gift. It's not something you can't eq it in.

2890
03:02:16,480 --> 03:02:19,920
Speaker 2: It's got something to do with the EQ curve of

2891
03:02:19,959 --> 03:02:21,920
Speaker 2: the voice, but it's got to do also with some

2892
03:02:22,040 --> 03:02:26,160
Speaker 2: invisible kind of magical charisma. Some people just have it.

2893
03:02:26,800 --> 03:02:30,160
Speaker 2: Mick Jagger. Listen, you mentioned Tumblin Dice earlier in the discussion.

2894
03:02:31,240 --> 03:02:33,640
Speaker 2: Listen how low his vocal is. No one in the

2895
03:02:33,800 --> 03:02:36,160
Speaker 2: right minds would ever put out a record with the

2896
03:02:36,240 --> 03:02:38,760
Speaker 2: vocal mix that low. But it doesn't matter because he

2897
03:02:38,920 --> 03:02:42,480
Speaker 2: leaps out of the speakers. Garth Brooks leaps out of

2898
03:02:42,480 --> 03:02:45,800
Speaker 2: the speakers. I was a stun man when I work with him.

2899
03:02:46,640 --> 03:02:49,760
Speaker 2: He left out of the speakers so far as like

2900
03:02:49,800 --> 03:02:54,800
Speaker 2: he was standing behind me man. And that's why I knew.

2901
03:02:54,840 --> 03:02:58,400
Speaker 2: I was understood why he was the most successful artists

2902
03:02:58,400 --> 03:03:00,440
Speaker 2: in the world at that time, because he had this

2903
03:03:00,520 --> 03:03:09,160
Speaker 2: incredible gift of audio charisma. Aretha Franklin and Bonnie's Got It.

2904
03:03:09,959 --> 03:03:12,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, those are two good examples. But you're working with

2905
03:03:12,400 --> 03:03:15,840
Speaker 1: Mick is if they are one hundred percent of the timer.

2906
03:03:16,000 --> 03:03:17,040
Speaker 1: You have to get him in the zone.

2907
03:03:18,160 --> 03:03:20,960
Speaker 2: He warms up into the character and you can see

2908
03:03:20,959 --> 03:03:25,240
Speaker 2: the physical transformation and it's just it's it's so awesome,

2909
03:03:25,360 --> 03:03:28,760
Speaker 2: especially if you're a fan. Right, so comes in, he's

2910
03:03:28,760 --> 03:03:31,000
Speaker 2: got a sweater and a dress shirt, you know, and

2911
03:03:31,120 --> 03:03:34,480
Speaker 2: he stands there and he's singing It's Mick Jagger, but

2912
03:03:34,600 --> 03:03:38,160
Speaker 2: he's he's not the guy and you gotta go four

2913
03:03:38,240 --> 03:03:42,480
Speaker 2: or five takes in and then sweater comes off, the

2914
03:03:42,560 --> 03:03:46,240
Speaker 2: dress shirt comes off. Now he's in a T shirt

2915
03:03:46,640 --> 03:03:51,440
Speaker 2: and the lips start, they transform. He becomes the character.

2916
03:03:52,360 --> 03:03:55,280
Speaker 2: And then he'll give you two or three passes of

2917
03:03:55,320 --> 03:03:57,600
Speaker 2: it where he's the thing, and then he knows he's

2918
03:03:57,720 --> 03:04:09,160
Speaker 2: done it. He knows when he's there and when he's not. Hey,

2919
03:04:09,959 --> 03:04:14,160
Speaker 2: he's just phenomenal, man, he's just so's you know, he's

2920
03:04:14,160 --> 03:04:18,440
Speaker 2: the greatest front man ever, right, greatest front man of

2921
03:04:18,520 --> 03:04:18,880
Speaker 2: the banned.

2922
03:04:19,080 --> 03:04:21,600
Speaker 1: Well, they just to stay on the stones for a minute,

2923
03:04:22,160 --> 03:04:26,360
Speaker 1: especially at glaston very recently with all the controversies with

2924
03:04:26,800 --> 03:04:33,480
Speaker 1: villains and the kneecap. The stones were dangerous back in

2925
03:04:33,520 --> 03:04:37,560
Speaker 1: their era. And then of course in the sixty nine

2926
03:04:37,640 --> 03:04:39,640
Speaker 1: to seventy two era, I mean there were no cell

2927
03:04:39,680 --> 03:04:42,080
Speaker 1: phone cameras. They were in the south of France. There's

2928
03:04:42,080 --> 03:04:44,600
Speaker 1: been some footage town. It was almost as fucked up

2929
03:04:44,640 --> 03:04:48,800
Speaker 1: as they said it was okay, whereas now it's fifty

2930
03:04:48,920 --> 03:04:51,320
Speaker 1: years later. I mean, Joe Walls had a great line

2931
03:04:51,400 --> 03:04:54,400
Speaker 1: about this because I'm too old to die young, and

2932
03:04:54,440 --> 03:04:58,200
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, it's not their fault at all,

2933
03:04:58,720 --> 03:04:59,800
Speaker 1: and it's got nothing to eat.

2934
03:05:00,280 --> 03:05:01,240
Speaker 2: Just weird.

2935
03:05:02,200 --> 03:05:04,200
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really weird if something. This is why

2936
03:05:04,240 --> 03:05:06,720
Speaker 1: I got to give Keith Richards much credit. He's not

2937
03:05:06,800 --> 03:05:09,480
Speaker 1: trying to look young. It's like when these guys get

2938
03:05:09,480 --> 03:05:12,120
Speaker 1: plastic surgery and they look forty years younger than the

2939
03:05:12,160 --> 03:05:17,240
Speaker 1: audience it's coming to see them. But as they say,

2940
03:05:17,240 --> 03:05:19,879
Speaker 1: it's not the Stones, I guess it's the same thing

2941
03:05:20,520 --> 03:05:22,680
Speaker 1: in the show. There's always a moment where it locks

2942
03:05:22,720 --> 03:05:25,160
Speaker 1: on and you go, that is it.

2943
03:05:25,920 --> 03:05:29,119
Speaker 2: They're fucking great man. I've seen him. I've seen him

2944
03:05:29,120 --> 03:05:31,200
Speaker 2: as a I started the first time I went to

2945
03:05:31,200 --> 03:05:33,720
Speaker 2: see him as in sixty four, they played for two

2946
03:05:33,840 --> 03:05:38,920
Speaker 2: hundred people at Olympia Stadium, which is an arena in Detroit,

2947
03:05:38,920 --> 03:05:41,920
Speaker 2: two hundred people in an eighteen thousand seat places. Before

2948
03:05:41,920 --> 03:05:44,160
Speaker 2: they were on that Cellivant show, I saw him three

2949
03:05:44,280 --> 03:05:48,240
Speaker 2: or four times with Brian Jones, so I'm gonna gimme

2950
03:05:48,320 --> 03:05:53,280
Speaker 2: shelter tour. I've seen him, you know, throughout, and then

2951
03:05:53,320 --> 03:05:55,480
Speaker 2: once I started working with him, I saw him another

2952
03:05:55,680 --> 03:05:59,800
Speaker 2: fifty times, and I'm always blown away. I've never seen

2953
03:06:00,320 --> 03:06:01,520
Speaker 2: a shitty Stone show.

2954
03:06:01,720 --> 03:06:04,800
Speaker 1: Okay, did you go to the show with Fonda? Okay,

2955
03:06:05,760 --> 03:06:11,240
Speaker 1: they were great but it's the stones in a room

2956
03:06:11,280 --> 03:06:15,800
Speaker 1: with under two thousand people. Song ends all the rabble rousing.

2957
03:06:16,360 --> 03:06:19,160
Speaker 1: You know, you think it's the fucking stones. They don't

2958
03:06:19,160 --> 03:06:21,920
Speaker 1: do a lot of pattern between the numbers anyway. It

2959
03:06:22,040 --> 03:06:26,560
Speaker 1: was just it was disrespectful. But I just couldn't believe it.

2960
03:06:26,560 --> 03:06:29,360
Speaker 2: It was a weird It was an industry audience, I

2961
03:06:29,360 --> 03:06:31,560
Speaker 2: think you could call it, and that's a that's a

2962
03:06:31,560 --> 03:06:34,080
Speaker 2: tough audience to play for. I thought they were great.

2963
03:06:34,160 --> 03:06:37,039
Speaker 2: I saw them at the Echoplex too, and I didn't

2964
03:06:37,040 --> 03:06:39,800
Speaker 2: see that show. That was just the most surreal thing.

2965
03:06:39,879 --> 03:06:42,920
Speaker 2: To be in a bar with the rolling stones.

2966
03:06:45,400 --> 03:06:48,040
Speaker 1: Well, the great thing about them is they are a

2967
03:06:48,080 --> 03:06:48,680
Speaker 1: bar band.

2968
03:06:49,160 --> 03:06:53,119
Speaker 2: Well they can be the roots.

2969
03:06:53,520 --> 03:06:56,279
Speaker 1: We go into the production era of let it bleed whatever,

2970
03:06:56,760 --> 03:06:59,640
Speaker 1: But at the core, it's guys who listened to a

2971
03:06:59,680 --> 03:07:01,879
Speaker 1: lot of blues records and want it to be and

2972
03:07:01,920 --> 03:07:04,520
Speaker 1: that's out is supposed to someone who, you know, other

2973
03:07:04,560 --> 03:07:07,520
Speaker 1: than satanic majesties, maybe supposed to someone who blew with

2974
03:07:07,560 --> 03:07:11,480
Speaker 1: the wind. It's pure to what it is and very

2975
03:07:11,520 --> 03:07:12,920
Speaker 1: few things are that long.

2976
03:07:13,000 --> 03:07:15,039
Speaker 2: That's why I love the Blue and Lonesome record, because

2977
03:07:15,040 --> 03:07:18,959
Speaker 2: I think that was utterly not only was it made

2978
03:07:19,080 --> 03:07:26,680
Speaker 2: utterly without self consciousness or thinking they've adjust themselves. And

2979
03:07:26,720 --> 03:07:29,400
Speaker 2: because it was all in one room and the drum

2980
03:07:29,520 --> 03:07:33,440
Speaker 2: sound was coming primarily from mixed vocal mic, there was

2981
03:07:33,560 --> 03:07:37,920
Speaker 2: no overdubbing, no punching, no fixing, nothing. That's just listen

2982
03:07:37,959 --> 03:07:40,680
Speaker 2: out what a great band they are.

2983
03:07:41,000 --> 03:07:44,840
Speaker 1: The problem is, you'll remember in the seventies, you know,

2984
03:07:45,160 --> 03:07:48,040
Speaker 1: bands put out live albums to get out of their contracts,

2985
03:07:48,040 --> 03:07:50,800
Speaker 1: and they change the contracts, doesn't count as an album.

2986
03:07:50,600 --> 03:07:53,119
Speaker 2: Et cetera. Live music was so weird.

2987
03:07:53,160 --> 03:07:56,240
Speaker 1: I remember it was in a bar in Aspen, Colorado

2988
03:07:56,280 --> 03:07:58,840
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy They taped the concert off the radio

2989
03:07:59,160 --> 03:07:59,920
Speaker 1: and they had it.

2990
03:08:00,040 --> 03:08:00,720
Speaker 2: You could listen to it.

2991
03:08:00,840 --> 03:08:03,160
Speaker 1: Then there was a King Biscuit flower arm. This ship

2992
03:08:03,360 --> 03:08:07,080
Speaker 1: was so rare. If the Stones had got nothing to

2993
03:08:07,080 --> 03:08:08,800
Speaker 1: do with the record. But if the Stones are put

2994
03:08:09,040 --> 03:08:10,640
Speaker 1: low down on whatever the hell the name of the

2995
03:08:10,640 --> 03:08:13,360
Speaker 1: track is that if they put it out in nineteen

2996
03:08:13,400 --> 03:08:17,080
Speaker 1: seventy three, it would have been like everybody would have

2997
03:08:17,120 --> 03:08:17,440
Speaker 1: known it.

2998
03:08:17,800 --> 03:08:22,640
Speaker 2: Times changed, yeah, times changed. But what I love is

2999
03:08:22,680 --> 03:08:28,120
Speaker 2: that they you know, Keith Richard's man, he's just he's

3000
03:08:28,200 --> 03:08:33,279
Speaker 2: such a great soulful musician. You know, he's one hundred

3001
03:08:33,360 --> 03:08:37,480
Speaker 2: percent for real. And I've gone to see them live

3002
03:08:37,520 --> 03:08:42,160
Speaker 2: and I've seen him like walk past on the runway there.

3003
03:08:42,520 --> 03:08:46,720
Speaker 2: He's like transfixed. Man, he's in a trance, and I've

3004
03:08:46,760 --> 03:08:50,560
Speaker 2: had eye contact with him, and but he's he's somewhere else.

3005
03:08:50,600 --> 03:08:54,160
Speaker 2: He's so deep into what he's playing. And he said,

3006
03:08:54,440 --> 03:08:56,640
Speaker 2: night after night after night, he goes there every night.

3007
03:08:56,879 --> 03:09:00,800
Speaker 2: He doesn't he changes his position the guitar. So if

3008
03:09:00,800 --> 03:09:03,520
Speaker 2: it's a g chord, you'll play it down here one night,

3009
03:09:03,680 --> 03:09:05,920
Speaker 2: you'll play it up here another night. And that leads

3010
03:09:05,959 --> 03:09:10,000
Speaker 2: to a whole other thing. He's he's improvising in a

3011
03:09:10,280 --> 03:09:15,040
Speaker 2: very narrow framework. There's not a whole lot of room

3012
03:09:15,080 --> 03:09:21,679
Speaker 2: for it. But nothing's ever on autopilot with him. He's

3013
03:09:21,800 --> 03:09:24,080
Speaker 2: for real and he's so sold.

3014
03:09:25,040 --> 03:09:27,959
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I don't know whether you went to

3015
03:09:28,080 --> 03:09:30,400
Speaker 1: the Metropolitan Museum of Art and then it was the

3016
03:09:30,480 --> 03:09:32,959
Speaker 1: Rock and Roll Hall of Fame whatever they called it,

3017
03:09:33,000 --> 03:09:37,160
Speaker 1: with everybody's guitars and you saw his less Paul with

3018
03:09:37,360 --> 03:09:41,080
Speaker 1: four strings. That's when it all came out. And then

3019
03:09:41,080 --> 03:09:43,879
Speaker 1: I remember being on stage talking to his guitar deck.

3020
03:09:43,920 --> 03:09:46,160
Speaker 1: I said, you know what the deal was, We let

3021
03:09:46,200 --> 03:09:48,080
Speaker 1: it do we go on the road, we have to

3022
03:09:48,120 --> 03:09:52,600
Speaker 1: have it. It's like the came But you know, it's

3023
03:09:52,720 --> 03:09:55,280
Speaker 1: the same thing with Eddie van Halen's Frankenstein guitar, because

3024
03:09:55,600 --> 03:09:57,440
Speaker 1: if it was my guitar, I wouldn't take it out

3025
03:09:57,440 --> 03:09:59,720
Speaker 1: of my bedroom. I'd be afraid that it fall apart.

3026
03:10:00,480 --> 03:10:02,199
Speaker 1: But we all grew.

3027
03:10:02,120 --> 03:10:03,000
Speaker 2: Up in there. The factor.

3028
03:10:02,959 --> 03:10:06,160
Speaker 1: You know you only gonna play on four strings.

3029
03:10:05,480 --> 03:10:07,040
Speaker 2: Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

3030
03:10:07,440 --> 03:10:09,000
Speaker 1: What do you think of the Mick Taylor era?

3031
03:10:09,800 --> 03:10:11,920
Speaker 2: That's beautiful.

3032
03:10:12,200 --> 03:10:15,359
Speaker 1: I can talk because I didn't work with him. Although

3033
03:10:15,440 --> 03:10:18,600
Speaker 1: Ronnie Wood, you know, bass player with Jeff Beck, the

3034
03:10:18,600 --> 03:10:23,160
Speaker 1: ship that he did with Rod Stewart unbelievable. Okay, the

3035
03:10:23,200 --> 03:10:26,160
Speaker 1: only problem I have with Ronnie Wood is his sound

3036
03:10:26,240 --> 03:10:30,440
Speaker 1: is somewhat similar to Keith's, whereas Mick Taylor was came

3037
03:10:30,480 --> 03:10:31,840
Speaker 1: from a completely different place.

3038
03:10:34,200 --> 03:10:38,400
Speaker 2: Well, Ronnie is one of these guys man. You could

3039
03:10:38,440 --> 03:10:42,320
Speaker 2: put anything in his hands. One time I ordered there's

3040
03:10:42,360 --> 03:10:46,000
Speaker 2: like an oil can dulcimer. There's like someone put a neck,

3041
03:10:47,000 --> 03:10:50,320
Speaker 2: a dulcimer neck on an oil can and strung it

3042
03:10:50,400 --> 03:10:54,600
Speaker 2: up and they brought it to the studio for me. Right,

3043
03:10:55,800 --> 03:10:58,480
Speaker 2: I sound like a jerk. Playing It just gonna take

3044
03:10:58,480 --> 03:11:04,400
Speaker 2: some time. And to Ronnie, he just made something spectacular

3045
03:11:04,520 --> 03:11:11,320
Speaker 2: happen almost instantly on this thing, and just found a

3046
03:11:11,320 --> 03:11:16,680
Speaker 2: way to be expressive. He's a super talented guy. And

3047
03:11:18,320 --> 03:11:23,680
Speaker 2: because he's got to share responsibilities with Keith, he's accepted

3048
03:11:23,840 --> 03:11:27,600
Speaker 2: somewhat of a shadow role in the Rolling Stones. But

3049
03:11:28,600 --> 03:11:32,480
Speaker 2: he's world class. I just remember another thing. There was this.

3050
03:11:33,680 --> 03:11:36,000
Speaker 1: Now there are tons of stadium shows. There weren't shows

3051
03:11:36,080 --> 03:11:37,880
Speaker 1: for a couple of decades. People don't know in the

3052
03:11:37,920 --> 03:11:42,119
Speaker 1: seventies all these stadium shows. I've already living in la

3053
03:11:42,400 --> 03:11:48,359
Speaker 1: and it was Fleetwood Mac with Stevie and Lindsay Loggins

3054
03:11:48,360 --> 03:11:51,320
Speaker 1: in the scene in the headline were the faces, okay.

3055
03:11:52,040 --> 03:11:56,400
Speaker 1: And that was just when rumors were seventy five, just

3056
03:11:56,480 --> 03:11:58,560
Speaker 1: when rumors were coming out that he was going to

3057
03:11:58,600 --> 03:12:03,160
Speaker 1: be the Stones guitarist. Well now it's fifty years later,

3058
03:12:03,360 --> 03:12:07,160
Speaker 1: he's been the Stones guitarist. You know, Brian Jone isn't

3059
03:12:07,160 --> 03:12:09,720
Speaker 1: even making a decade. He's like the new guy. It's

3060
03:12:09,760 --> 03:12:10,760
Speaker 1: a strange thing.

3061
03:12:11,040 --> 03:12:16,760
Speaker 2: Strangely, but when you live the phenomenon you're talking about,

3062
03:12:17,360 --> 03:12:21,840
Speaker 2: it's tougher for him. On songs that Mick Taylor originally played.

3063
03:12:23,040 --> 03:12:27,440
Speaker 2: He's better on the songs where he initiated the part,

3064
03:12:27,520 --> 03:12:31,000
Speaker 2: like Beast of Burden. Those are the guitar weaving that

3065
03:12:31,200 --> 03:12:34,600
Speaker 2: goes on. It's a different relationship Keith and Ronnie. You

3066
03:12:34,640 --> 03:12:38,720
Speaker 2: have a different relationship than Keith and Brian Head. I'm

3067
03:12:38,720 --> 03:12:42,600
Speaker 2: talking about musically, and they do this guitar weaving thing

3068
03:12:42,720 --> 03:12:44,920
Speaker 2: for which you do have to be like minded. You

3069
03:12:44,920 --> 03:12:46,240
Speaker 2: can't be one hundred and eighty right.

3070
03:12:46,360 --> 03:12:48,600
Speaker 1: It's like when Mick Taylor or whatever it was supposed

3071
03:12:48,600 --> 03:12:50,240
Speaker 1: to be the fifty at the anniversary too, I think

3072
03:12:50,240 --> 03:12:52,440
Speaker 1: it was the fifty first, and he would sit in

3073
03:12:52,480 --> 03:12:54,920
Speaker 1: for a couple of songs. Yeah, whatever he was playing

3074
03:12:55,040 --> 03:12:57,039
Speaker 1: was nothing like what they were playing.

3075
03:12:57,080 --> 03:13:00,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well and it was great. You know, yeah,

3076
03:13:00,879 --> 03:13:03,680
Speaker 2: they've been at it for a while. Well.

3077
03:13:03,720 --> 03:13:07,440
Speaker 1: The only other thing we know is for years we've

3078
03:13:07,440 --> 03:13:09,600
Speaker 1: been hearing it. I mean, you and me go under

3079
03:13:09,640 --> 03:13:10,960
Speaker 1: different circumstances here.

3080
03:13:11,000 --> 03:13:13,800
Speaker 2: You know, you gotta go. It could be the last time.

3081
03:13:14,400 --> 03:13:17,280
Speaker 1: Now we're getting to the point where, fuck, everybody's dying.

3082
03:13:17,320 --> 03:13:19,280
Speaker 1: You don't know, it could be the last time.

3083
03:13:20,480 --> 03:13:23,160
Speaker 2: I remember that we cut one song right over here

3084
03:13:23,160 --> 03:13:27,600
Speaker 2: in Hollywood. It's now called East West we're in studio too,

3085
03:13:27,720 --> 03:13:30,600
Speaker 2: and it was meant to be the last song on

3086
03:13:31,400 --> 03:13:34,960
Speaker 2: for Just a Babylon Well, how can I stop? It

3087
03:13:35,040 --> 03:13:38,119
Speaker 2: was one of Keith's songs and we were all set

3088
03:13:38,200 --> 03:13:40,520
Speaker 2: up in a circle and there were other people playing.

3089
03:13:40,600 --> 03:13:44,680
Speaker 2: Jim Keltner was there with Charlie and Wayne Shorter is

3090
03:13:44,720 --> 03:13:49,039
Speaker 2: playing on it. Blondie Chaplin was playing the grand piano.

3091
03:13:50,360 --> 03:13:53,480
Speaker 2: Keith was singing live, the backgrounds were live. I was

3092
03:13:53,520 --> 03:14:01,000
Speaker 2: playing a Wurlitzer piano and at the end of the song, Charlie,

3093
03:14:01,040 --> 03:14:03,760
Speaker 2: who had a car waiting in the alley, It's like

3094
03:14:03,800 --> 03:14:05,879
Speaker 2: five in the morning. He had a flight back to

3095
03:14:05,959 --> 03:14:10,280
Speaker 2: London that day. Charlie hits this flourish on the symbols.

3096
03:14:10,320 --> 03:14:12,560
Speaker 2: When the song was done, then it goes into the

3097
03:14:12,720 --> 03:14:15,680
Speaker 2: whole other thing. It's like Wayne's playing soprano sacks. It

3098
03:14:15,760 --> 03:14:19,320
Speaker 2: sounds like it's Coltrane, sounds like Love Supreme, kind of right,

3099
03:14:19,959 --> 03:14:22,920
Speaker 2: this whole other thing. And as we were doing it,

3100
03:14:22,959 --> 03:14:25,920
Speaker 2: I started crying because I thought, Oh my god, this

3101
03:14:26,000 --> 03:14:28,520
Speaker 2: is this is the last song the Stones are ever

3102
03:14:28,560 --> 03:14:32,000
Speaker 2: gonna cut. This is their coda. What a spectacular way

3103
03:14:32,120 --> 03:14:34,480
Speaker 2: to take it out. It's the last song. I'm Bridges

3104
03:14:34,480 --> 03:14:36,480
Speaker 2: to Babylon. Check it out and check out the end.

3105
03:14:36,520 --> 03:14:39,400
Speaker 2: Ding and Charlie. We finished, Charlie got in the car

3106
03:14:39,520 --> 03:14:42,560
Speaker 2: drove off. I thought, wow, I was there for the

3107
03:14:42,680 --> 03:14:44,440
Speaker 2: last session of the Stones.

3108
03:14:45,120 --> 03:14:49,000
Speaker 1: Well, since you're talking the Bridges to Babylon, my favorite

3109
03:14:49,080 --> 03:14:52,519
Speaker 1: song on that track is not unknown, not that it

3110
03:14:52,560 --> 03:14:54,280
Speaker 1: was a huge hit, sane of.

3111
03:14:54,400 --> 03:14:56,199
Speaker 2: Me, Oh, you never mixed saying to me, yeah.

3112
03:14:57,000 --> 03:15:00,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just got to feel that it's just great.

3113
03:15:00,520 --> 03:15:03,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a cool track. Yeah, yeah, they're good moments.

3114
03:15:04,280 --> 03:15:05,039
Speaker 1: There are great.

3115
03:15:04,840 --> 03:15:10,080
Speaker 2: Moments on all all those records. I think that it's

3116
03:15:10,080 --> 03:15:12,360
Speaker 2: a it's a tough thing to live up to. Man.

3117
03:15:12,440 --> 03:15:17,520
Speaker 2: You know, when when when people have so much of

3118
03:15:17,560 --> 03:15:26,039
Speaker 2: their own personal memories intertwined with certain music, it takes

3119
03:15:26,440 --> 03:15:29,360
Speaker 2: twenty It's only now are people starting to tell me

3120
03:15:30,000 --> 03:15:34,480
Speaker 2: how good Voodoo Lounge is. It takes it takes decades

3121
03:15:34,680 --> 03:15:39,880
Speaker 2: to attach your own sensory triggers to these songs and

3122
03:15:40,440 --> 03:15:43,440
Speaker 2: then it becomes something special. But to have to compete

3123
03:15:43,520 --> 03:15:48,560
Speaker 2: with with, you know, like memories of you make it

3124
03:15:48,600 --> 03:15:50,000
Speaker 2: out in the car in high school.

3125
03:15:50,000 --> 03:15:52,760
Speaker 1: Man, you know how the interesting thing not at this level,

3126
03:15:52,800 --> 03:15:57,400
Speaker 1: but Todd Rungren, who's really incredibly successful. He goes on

3127
03:15:57,440 --> 03:16:00,680
Speaker 1: the road, no matter how much he till people, I'm

3128
03:16:00,680 --> 03:16:02,080
Speaker 1: gonna do my electronic stuff.

3129
03:16:02,120 --> 03:16:02,600
Speaker 2: They come.

3130
03:16:02,920 --> 03:16:04,800
Speaker 1: They want to hear the hits. They want to hear

3131
03:16:04,840 --> 03:16:07,480
Speaker 1: more than Hello, it's me, and they can't believe it.

3132
03:16:07,520 --> 03:16:10,520
Speaker 1: I give them credit for doing it, but it's got

3133
03:16:10,520 --> 03:16:11,040
Speaker 1: to be tough.

3134
03:16:14,120 --> 03:16:16,160
Speaker 2: You just do it because that's what you do. Man.

3135
03:16:16,280 --> 03:16:18,480
Speaker 2: Musicians play, you just want to play. I think it's

3136
03:16:18,800 --> 03:16:20,400
Speaker 2: it's really most of the.

3137
03:16:20,200 --> 03:16:24,080
Speaker 1: People from our era, not the ones on the oldies tours,

3138
03:16:24,560 --> 03:16:29,400
Speaker 1: who can sell out areenas whatever they've sailed far beyond that,

3139
03:16:30,480 --> 03:16:34,480
Speaker 1: because a it is about the money, because they have

3140
03:16:34,600 --> 03:16:37,480
Speaker 1: lifestyles that they you know, they're not keeping every one

3141
03:16:37,520 --> 03:16:40,120
Speaker 1: of these dollars. And then the other thing is they

3142
03:16:40,120 --> 03:16:44,720
Speaker 1: need the adulation, and many will not take that risk.

3143
03:16:45,000 --> 03:16:50,240
Speaker 2: Well, the people I know, Bob Dylan stones, that's not

3144
03:16:50,280 --> 03:16:53,160
Speaker 2: what they don't need the bread, They don't really need

3145
03:16:53,160 --> 03:16:56,600
Speaker 2: the adulation. It's what you do, man, Dylan.

3146
03:16:56,920 --> 03:17:01,520
Speaker 1: Dylan wrote the fucking book. I mean you look at

3147
03:17:01,520 --> 03:17:05,240
Speaker 1: the Beatles. They didn't do any endorsements whatever, which influencer,

3148
03:17:05,480 --> 03:17:08,119
Speaker 1: but they didn't really know what they were doing. Bob

3149
03:17:08,240 --> 03:17:12,160
Speaker 1: Dylan was conscious of all this stuff that he was doing.

3150
03:17:12,640 --> 03:17:15,720
Speaker 1: And then you know, you remember Self Portrait came out

3151
03:17:16,120 --> 03:17:18,560
Speaker 1: first of his records to get negative reviews. That came

3152
03:17:18,560 --> 03:17:21,520
Speaker 1: out in June, comes out with New Morning in October,

3153
03:17:22,000 --> 03:17:25,880
Speaker 1: and it's phenomenal. Okay, and there's some recor. I mean,

3154
03:17:25,959 --> 03:17:31,360
Speaker 1: now you just never know. Listen. He gets number one

3155
03:17:31,440 --> 03:17:35,400
Speaker 1: credit in my book because he's doing it his way

3156
03:17:35,879 --> 03:17:39,200
Speaker 1: on stage. Yeah, okay, I have seen it. I will

3157
03:17:39,240 --> 03:17:42,680
Speaker 1: be honest with you. Not always eager to see it.

3158
03:17:42,760 --> 03:17:45,440
Speaker 1: Somebody says friend of mine's the agent, but whatever, but

3159
03:17:45,600 --> 03:17:48,680
Speaker 1: he's making it interesting for himself. Otherwise, how can you

3160
03:17:48,760 --> 03:17:49,000
Speaker 1: do it?

3161
03:17:49,240 --> 03:17:52,520
Speaker 2: You can't. He has an adventure every night if you

3162
03:17:52,640 --> 03:17:55,640
Speaker 2: listen closely, because I follow him on YouTube and Minched,

3163
03:17:55,959 --> 03:18:00,920
Speaker 2: I watch all the shows. Man, he's he digs in real,

3164
03:18:01,080 --> 03:18:04,200
Speaker 2: he doesn't throw away syllables. He's a great singer, and

3165
03:18:04,240 --> 03:18:08,720
Speaker 2: he's really he's not walking through it. He's really trying

3166
03:18:08,800 --> 03:18:12,320
Speaker 2: to interpret the songs and do it fresh every night.

3167
03:18:12,600 --> 03:18:14,199
Speaker 2: Bob Wear does the same thing.

3168
03:18:14,600 --> 03:18:19,200
Speaker 1: But Bob weare that's the roots. Yeah yeah, But with Dylan,

3169
03:18:19,879 --> 03:18:22,199
Speaker 1: as I say, I agree with everything you said here.

3170
03:18:22,120 --> 03:18:26,039
Speaker 2: Him with Barbi straisand I haven't heard yet it's fucking great,

3171
03:18:26,440 --> 03:18:31,959
Speaker 2: and he sounds awesome, and he cuts closer to the

3172
03:18:32,040 --> 03:18:37,039
Speaker 2: emotional core of that song than just about anybody, and

3173
03:18:37,080 --> 03:18:41,320
Speaker 2: he does it without historyonics, without showing off. He does

3174
03:18:41,320 --> 03:18:44,920
Speaker 2: it through understatement. It's a brilliant reading of that song.

3175
03:18:44,959 --> 03:18:46,640
Speaker 2: And he sounds wonderful too.

3176
03:18:47,920 --> 03:18:49,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I could talk about so many Dylan things,

3177
03:18:49,879 --> 03:18:52,120
Speaker 1: but you talk about the go to tracks. This is

3178
03:18:52,160 --> 03:18:54,800
Speaker 1: not number one, but it's in the top five. I

3179
03:18:55,040 --> 03:19:00,360
Speaker 1: and I from Infidels. You know, I literally can picture

3180
03:19:00,400 --> 03:19:03,640
Speaker 1: of place when the song wasn't even out yet. Is

3181
03:19:03,800 --> 03:19:08,760
Speaker 1: it just resonates. It's just so incredible.

3182
03:19:09,040 --> 03:19:09,240
Speaker 2: You know.

3183
03:19:09,320 --> 03:19:11,520
Speaker 1: The other thing about DM, I remember he was he

3184
03:19:11,640 --> 03:19:14,520
Speaker 1: was hyping some album he works too, and he was

3185
03:19:14,520 --> 03:19:16,360
Speaker 1: in he said, you know, they talked about the earlier records,

3186
03:19:16,360 --> 03:19:20,039
Speaker 1: goes can't do that anymore. And then you get old

3187
03:19:20,120 --> 03:19:22,440
Speaker 1: enough you realize it's not that you lose something.

3188
03:19:22,440 --> 03:19:27,200
Speaker 2: You have to get to the next thing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

3189
03:19:27,640 --> 03:19:34,120
Speaker 2: I think he's been as consistently great over a sixty

3190
03:19:34,520 --> 03:19:38,160
Speaker 2: seventy sixty year period as anybody.

3191
03:19:38,280 --> 03:19:40,800
Speaker 1: So if you want to compare him with somebody, absolutely well,

3192
03:19:40,840 --> 03:19:44,160
Speaker 1: he's the only person who's making different records as time

3193
03:19:44,200 --> 03:19:47,360
Speaker 1: goes by everybody else if they're making them. I mean,

3194
03:19:49,080 --> 03:19:51,600
Speaker 1: it's like the movie. I had a problem with the

3195
03:19:51,640 --> 03:19:55,480
Speaker 1: movie because A it was not always accurate and B

3196
03:19:55,640 --> 03:20:03,199
Speaker 1: it's hot giography. The guy is fucking from Hibbing, Minnesota

3197
03:20:03,520 --> 03:20:08,080
Speaker 1: comes to New York. People have no idea how hard

3198
03:20:08,120 --> 03:20:12,320
Speaker 1: it is to make it, no idea sticking to his

3199
03:20:12,400 --> 03:20:14,760
Speaker 1: vision and any of the other thing, you know, no

3200
03:20:14,800 --> 03:20:17,840
Speaker 1: matter what budgets were. Then he got these records fast,

3201
03:20:18,840 --> 03:20:22,440
Speaker 1: but he knew what he was doing and nobody else did.

3202
03:20:23,400 --> 03:20:28,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. True. Well, you know, one time I asked him

3203
03:20:28,720 --> 03:20:32,119
Speaker 2: how come you can write Gates of Eden and I can't, which,

3204
03:20:32,879 --> 03:20:36,240
Speaker 2: actually it's a line in the movie, right everyone wants

3205
03:20:36,640 --> 03:20:40,440
Speaker 2: but I was unaware. This is probably nineteen ninety or

3206
03:20:40,480 --> 03:20:43,400
Speaker 2: something like that, and he said, well, look, man, if

3207
03:20:43,400 --> 03:20:46,480
Speaker 2: it makes you feel any better, I didn't actually write it,

3208
03:20:46,560 --> 03:20:49,400
Speaker 2: he said, I remember moving the pencil of old Age,

3209
03:20:49,480 --> 03:20:53,959
Speaker 2: but it came from without. And at the time I

3210
03:20:53,959 --> 03:20:55,760
Speaker 2: thought I was very sweet of him. He's just trying

3211
03:20:55,760 --> 03:20:59,560
Speaker 2: to make me feel better about this. Then I started

3212
03:20:59,600 --> 03:21:02,039
Speaker 2: hearing the same You're in the same thing, Keith Richards.

3213
03:21:02,280 --> 03:21:05,240
Speaker 2: He's riches, by the way, in a session he didn't say, uh,

3214
03:21:05,440 --> 03:21:07,320
Speaker 2: hold a hold, I got an idea. He says, hold

3215
03:21:07,320 --> 03:21:13,680
Speaker 2: a whole incoming income or or Willie or Chris and

3216
03:21:14,320 --> 03:21:17,760
Speaker 2: any writer's work this on Brian Wilson, I'll tell you

3217
03:21:17,800 --> 03:21:19,360
Speaker 2: the same thing. I don't know where it came from

3218
03:21:19,440 --> 03:21:22,039
Speaker 2: him through me and Okay.

3219
03:21:21,840 --> 03:21:24,360
Speaker 1: I don't want to compare myself to those people. But

3220
03:21:24,480 --> 03:21:26,760
Speaker 1: when done right, you are channeling.

3221
03:21:27,040 --> 03:21:27,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

3222
03:21:27,879 --> 03:21:31,839
Speaker 1: And the worst thing is when you realize you're channeling.

3223
03:21:31,480 --> 03:21:32,360
Speaker 2: And then it goes left.

3224
03:21:32,440 --> 03:21:36,560
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, it's like you're just so there's always

3225
03:21:36,560 --> 03:21:40,520
Speaker 1: an inspiration and motivation, but it comes out. I mean,

3226
03:21:40,640 --> 03:21:43,400
Speaker 1: I have my tricks. One I won't mention, the other

3227
03:21:43,440 --> 03:21:46,000
Speaker 1: one to take a shower. It's like you have no

3228
03:21:46,240 --> 03:21:48,760
Speaker 1: idea what will come to try to get you in

3229
03:21:48,879 --> 03:21:49,680
Speaker 1: the zone.

3230
03:21:49,600 --> 03:21:54,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's hard, man. You don't you don't control it.

3231
03:21:55,040 --> 03:21:57,760
Speaker 2: You know. It's like surfing. You can you can learn

3232
03:21:57,800 --> 03:21:59,480
Speaker 2: how to stay up on the board, but you don't

3233
03:21:59,480 --> 03:22:03,000
Speaker 2: control the fucking ocean. Man. You know, it's like the ocean.

3234
03:22:03,080 --> 03:22:06,360
Speaker 2: You're gonna get the waves you get and you can't

3235
03:22:06,480 --> 03:22:09,040
Speaker 2: make him bigger. You can't change him. Okay.

3236
03:22:09,080 --> 03:22:11,879
Speaker 1: One of my favorite stories, al Cooper is not doing

3237
03:22:11,920 --> 03:22:15,480
Speaker 1: great now, good friend of mine. He's getting inducted.

3238
03:22:15,080 --> 03:22:16,080
Speaker 2: To the Rock Walk.

3239
03:22:16,240 --> 03:22:19,880
Speaker 1: You know whatever the guitar said, I'm talking to him backstage.

3240
03:22:20,200 --> 03:22:22,880
Speaker 1: I guess he was telling the story of Sweet Home Alabama,

3241
03:22:23,440 --> 03:22:26,080
Speaker 1: how the first album Leonard Skinnard had just come out

3242
03:22:26,840 --> 03:22:29,120
Speaker 1: and he got a call from Ronnie van Zen, like

3243
03:22:29,360 --> 03:22:31,600
Speaker 1: very shortly thereafter, I got a new song got to

3244
03:22:31,680 --> 03:22:34,920
Speaker 1: come up. And that was on a Friday. They came

3245
03:22:35,000 --> 03:22:38,119
Speaker 1: in and they cut it on Monday. Sweet Home Alabama

3246
03:22:38,520 --> 03:22:40,480
Speaker 1: did not come out for a year.

3247
03:22:41,320 --> 03:22:45,240
Speaker 4: Okay, I said, al did you know he goes it

3248
03:22:45,400 --> 03:22:52,240
Speaker 4: was Sweet Home Alabama.

3249
03:22:52,680 --> 03:22:56,840
Speaker 1: You know it's like that thing. Yeah, you know when

3250
03:22:56,879 --> 03:23:00,959
Speaker 1: you know when people I mean yeah, things can be

3251
03:23:01,120 --> 03:23:04,040
Speaker 1: hits not hits. It's like we connected in your movie.

3252
03:23:04,040 --> 03:23:06,400
Speaker 1: You made a big bit about till I Die off

3253
03:23:06,480 --> 03:23:10,039
Speaker 1: surfs Up, which I never heard anybody talk about whatever's

3254
03:23:10,080 --> 03:23:13,000
Speaker 1: in that record, and whenever read, you know, they don't

3255
03:23:13,040 --> 03:23:15,240
Speaker 1: have to play it on the radio every twenty minutes,

3256
03:23:15,280 --> 03:23:18,800
Speaker 1: et cetera. And when you do something like that, you

3257
03:23:19,200 --> 03:23:23,279
Speaker 1: absolutely know. The only thing I'm interested in is people.

3258
03:23:24,440 --> 03:23:26,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I know all these people, but I haven't

3259
03:23:26,680 --> 03:23:32,040
Speaker 1: gotten this discussion. The Eagles, who work very slowly put

3260
03:23:32,480 --> 03:23:36,560
Speaker 1: put things together. But some of the lines of you know,

3261
03:23:36,640 --> 03:23:38,440
Speaker 1: wasted time. You know, you can go on with your

3262
03:23:38,480 --> 03:23:40,560
Speaker 1: life and I can go on with mine, and maybe

3263
03:23:40,600 --> 03:23:43,320
Speaker 1: someday we will find it wasn't just wasted time. If

3264
03:23:43,360 --> 03:23:46,760
Speaker 1: you work that slowly, how you can mean it? Because

3265
03:23:46,800 --> 03:23:49,440
Speaker 1: all you're talking about the flash of brilliance. One day

3266
03:23:49,480 --> 03:23:52,760
Speaker 1: I got you know, Gates even came out complete and

3267
03:23:53,040 --> 03:23:55,840
Speaker 1: I just don't know. I mean, he's steely. Dan's another

3268
03:23:55,840 --> 03:24:00,760
Speaker 1: one works slow. How do they maintain because people are hacks,

3269
03:24:01,120 --> 03:24:02,879
Speaker 1: they've never been there, so they don't get it.

3270
03:24:03,520 --> 03:24:05,760
Speaker 2: Well, how about I'll go step further. How about Bob

3271
03:24:06,040 --> 03:24:10,440
Speaker 2: still rewrites his lyrics. We were with Weird we do

3272
03:24:10,720 --> 03:24:15,200
Speaker 2: when I paint my masterpiece right, and Bob Dylan must

3273
03:24:15,200 --> 03:24:18,200
Speaker 2: have heard it, and he said, tell Bob we are

3274
03:24:18,200 --> 03:24:23,240
Speaker 2: he's singing the wrong lyrics. What do you mean? He said, no,

3275
03:24:23,320 --> 03:24:25,720
Speaker 2: I changed him and he and he and he typed

3276
03:24:25,760 --> 03:24:27,720
Speaker 2: him out for me to give to the Weird to

3277
03:24:27,760 --> 03:24:31,760
Speaker 2: sing And okay, this is, you know, on an amateur level,

3278
03:24:32,000 --> 03:24:33,880
Speaker 2: but starting I think it was a seventy four.

3279
03:24:33,920 --> 03:24:37,080
Speaker 1: He put out a big lyric book. Okay, yeah, the

3280
03:24:37,160 --> 03:24:39,080
Speaker 1: lyrics are not the same as they are on the record.

3281
03:24:39,320 --> 03:24:42,360
Speaker 1: If you on the website now, they're not necessarily the same.

3282
03:24:42,400 --> 03:24:43,959
Speaker 1: I don't know if you continue sin, but they're not

3283
03:24:44,000 --> 03:24:45,280
Speaker 1: the same as they are on the record.

3284
03:24:45,280 --> 03:24:50,280
Speaker 2: He's updating constantly, so yes, it might have come from

3285
03:24:50,920 --> 03:24:54,959
Speaker 2: a flash in the moment, but he's still refining it. Well.

3286
03:24:54,959 --> 03:24:58,039
Speaker 1: It's interesting because Joni Mitchell has no time for him,

3287
03:24:59,200 --> 03:25:02,800
Speaker 1: and she's pretty crazy, but when she was at her peak,

3288
03:25:03,560 --> 03:25:06,080
Speaker 1: as good as any of them.

3289
03:25:06,400 --> 03:25:12,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know what Joni's issues, but he's he's

3290
03:25:12,440 --> 03:25:14,800
Speaker 2: a superhero as far as i'm Yeah, but you know,

3291
03:25:16,959 --> 03:25:18,599
Speaker 2: you don't want to be these people.

3292
03:25:20,280 --> 03:25:24,040
Speaker 1: Because you can't go anywhere. I mean, he could talk

3293
03:25:24,080 --> 03:25:28,000
Speaker 1: to you. There's a lot of So are you ever starstruck?

3294
03:25:29,200 --> 03:25:35,879
Speaker 2: Yeah? Sure, I try. If I'm working with someone, I

3295
03:25:35,959 --> 03:25:39,320
Speaker 2: try to be professional. There's no place for that. That's

3296
03:25:39,360 --> 03:25:47,879
Speaker 2: not why you're there. But yeah, always, I'm always starting.

3297
03:25:49,600 --> 03:25:51,520
Speaker 2: It'll be, it'll be. It looks like you're talking about

3298
03:25:51,560 --> 03:25:55,039
Speaker 2: it's a flash. I'll be sitting in the control room

3299
03:25:55,080 --> 03:25:58,000
Speaker 2: and I go, oh my god, that's wait short, Oh

3300
03:25:58,040 --> 03:26:01,880
Speaker 2: my god. Last week iding with bron Carter. Bron Carter

3301
03:26:01,959 --> 03:26:04,440
Speaker 2: is a lifetime here. It comes from Detroit, grew up

3302
03:26:04,440 --> 03:26:06,119
Speaker 2: about a mile and a half from where I did.

3303
03:26:07,200 --> 03:26:09,480
Speaker 2: He's fifteen years older than me, but so when I

3304
03:26:09,520 --> 03:26:12,120
Speaker 2: was a teenager, he was making what I still considered

3305
03:26:12,160 --> 03:26:14,720
Speaker 2: to be the greatest records ever made. Which of those

3306
03:26:15,080 --> 03:26:21,320
Speaker 2: Miles Davis Quintet records from esp through Miles in the Sky,

3307
03:26:21,800 --> 03:26:26,879
Speaker 2: you know, than that era. And I couldn't believe I

3308
03:26:26,920 --> 03:26:30,600
Speaker 2: was watching him play bass, you know, you know, a

3309
03:26:30,680 --> 03:26:35,119
Speaker 2: couple of feet away in the studio this last week recording.

3310
03:26:35,440 --> 03:26:38,360
Speaker 1: I've had those moments, and I know exactly what you're

3311
03:26:38,400 --> 03:26:42,959
Speaker 1: talking about. I'm talking about a slightly different moment, somewhat

3312
03:26:43,040 --> 03:26:47,480
Speaker 1: similar to your initial Brian Wilson thing where you're so

3313
03:26:47,920 --> 03:26:52,480
Speaker 1: starstruck either you can't say anything or you can't shut

3314
03:26:52,560 --> 03:26:53,959
Speaker 1: up as you're saying.

3315
03:26:53,680 --> 03:27:00,199
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, it happens. I mean the other thing.

3316
03:27:00,680 --> 03:27:04,840
Speaker 1: You know, people say most of these people are tortured, okay,

3317
03:27:05,720 --> 03:27:08,080
Speaker 1: ian most don't live up to who you want them

3318
03:27:08,080 --> 03:27:10,080
Speaker 1: to be. But then they're occasionally people to do like

3319
03:27:10,600 --> 03:27:14,480
Speaker 1: Steven Tyler. I say, no, he's that guy. He lives

3320
03:27:14,560 --> 03:27:18,320
Speaker 1: up to the rep So I guess, you know, going

3321
03:27:18,360 --> 03:27:24,240
Speaker 1: back to our earlier conversation, these people they were not entertainment.

3322
03:27:25,400 --> 03:27:29,080
Speaker 1: They were then they were not only successful, what they

3323
03:27:29,080 --> 03:27:32,680
Speaker 1: were saying was so important. Even some of the penumbra.

3324
03:27:33,520 --> 03:27:36,480
Speaker 1: Remember when you you you lived a slightly different world.

3325
03:27:37,000 --> 03:27:41,960
Speaker 1: The Beatles were on drugs. No Beatles aren't taking drugs.

3326
03:27:43,200 --> 03:27:49,400
Speaker 1: And then you know it's legitimized. Everybody's taking drugs. You

3327
03:27:49,440 --> 03:27:52,119
Speaker 1: know you got the messages. Okay, don enough of your time,

3328
03:27:52,640 --> 03:27:56,040
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for doing this until next time.

3329
03:27:56,160 --> 03:28:19,120
Speaker 4: This is Bob Left, says sh