Speaker 1: Podcast starts. Now, what's up everyone around the globe. You're
Speaker 1: listening to Stradio Lab from a windowless room in Times Square.
Speaker 2: That's right. Welcome to TRL.
Speaker 1: Welcome to TRL. I can hear and sink A bumping
Speaker 1: their new hit downstairs.
Speaker 2: So this is our final day of a full week
Speaker 2: of Stradio Lab content.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a NonStop I feel wistful. I know.
Speaker 2: We've recorded four episodes, We've done a live show. It
Speaker 2: was our first ever Lesbian Lab live show, all queer
Speaker 2: woman lineup, and instead of straight topics, they brought lesbian topics. Yes,
Speaker 2: and we learned about we can say what the three
Speaker 2: topics were to say them? Okay, self cancelation. So this
Speaker 2: is when you are a lesbian and you start a
Speaker 2: small business sort of with the intention of being canceled
Speaker 2: for having bad labor practices.
Speaker 1: You get like one complaint and then decide to go on,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: To that's right. And it's also like starting a business
Speaker 2: is actually more of a means to an end, the
Speaker 2: end being getting a conversation going. Yeah, so you want
Speaker 2: like a Reddit thread, you want people saying, like thread
Speaker 2: the truth about you know, black Cat coffee. So that
Speaker 2: was one. Hats was a second topic. So we learned
Speaker 2: about flat rim hats and about hey Mama lesbians, and
Speaker 2: about how different hats the further back in your head
Speaker 2: of bean egoes, the less queer you are. That is
Speaker 2: something that was I think positive. Yeah, that was positive
Speaker 2: and proven and proven. And then the final topic that
Speaker 2: this was the most interesting to me. You want to
Speaker 2: say what it was?
Speaker 1: It was porn. This was Ntalie Robert Lightman, and it
Speaker 1: was porn as a lesbian export, as pizza is to Italians.
Speaker 2: So she was yes, and so you.
Speaker 1: Know, it's not necessarily always made by Italians, just like
Speaker 1: lesbian wan was isn't always made by lesbians, and yet
Speaker 1: it's how most people interact with lesbian culture.
Speaker 2: This was fascinating to me because I am so you know,
Speaker 2: liberal arts pilled that. I thought the topic was like feminist.
Speaker 1: You're you're I have to say, your Ivy League education
Speaker 1: was showing pejorative. I was. It was very I have
Speaker 1: to say, it was like rich, it was sort of cam.
Speaker 1: It was Kamala coded.
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you for the class analysis. First of all,
Speaker 2: I really liberal. I appreciate it, and I'm self canceling
Speaker 2: in a lesbian way for my privilege because.
Speaker 1: I heard porn as our greate sector. I said, I
Speaker 1: know exactly what you're talking.
Speaker 2: And in retrospect, I completely understand what she was saying.
Speaker 2: She was saying the sort of male gays lesbian poor
Speaker 2: and literally the poster of two women kissing them guys
Speaker 2: have in their dorms. Yeah, that is like, I mean,
Speaker 2: that's like an art cultural export of lesbianism that people
Speaker 2: from all can unities can understand. What I heard was like,
Speaker 2: you know, sort of queer non binary porn where then
Speaker 2: all the performers also give a talk at Oberlin and
Speaker 2: the and then the talk is like and then there's
Speaker 2: like people asking questions at the talk and they're like
Speaker 2: holding space.
Speaker 1: It was really funny. You were like, oh, porn stars,
Speaker 1: you know, like people that do talks at colleges university
Speaker 1: And it's like, I really don't think that's what it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I love that.
Speaker 1: It's a beautiful it's a beautiful perspective that you bring.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know what that also is a lesbian
Speaker 2: cultural expert. It's just as like a less successful one
Speaker 2: because it hasn't really reached the heights of the sort
Speaker 2: of more male gayzyya.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was in the pizza metaphor you were forgetting
Speaker 1: sort of about dominoes.
Speaker 2: I was thinking more like Roberta's kind of a hot
Speaker 2: honey and sage, whereas Natalie was saying like pep baroni.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to say and I.
Speaker 2: Do want to actually shout out. So our friend Andrew
Speaker 2: long Cheu was supposed to do the show ended up
Speaker 2: not being able to make it. But her topic was
Speaker 2: going to be hands as a lesbian topic, which I
Speaker 2: think is so rich.
Speaker 1: Well, it's very rich, and I would love to know
Speaker 1: where she was coming from.
Speaker 2: You but you like get well you.
Speaker 1: Get that they have hands.
Speaker 2: No, but it's like, you know, hands are much more
Speaker 2: of an important part of lesbian sex. I think is
Speaker 2: where it's coming from.
Speaker 1: March. We're in Times Square.
Speaker 2: And like as a it's like hands. I think this
Speaker 2: is what she was going for, hands as a sex organ.
Speaker 1: Oh well, we'll have to ask, because I don't want
Speaker 1: to make assumptions because I don't know. Yeah, maybe that's
Speaker 1: not what she was going for.
Speaker 2: Okay, maybe I'm once again thinking too academically.
Speaker 3: You know, maybe she was like the lesbians work with
Speaker 3: their hands. Oh, that's also probably true.
Speaker 1: You know, who knows it could be any I'm not
Speaker 1: here to make assumptions. I'm here to listen.
Speaker 2: We were being so respectful and open minded last night,
Speaker 2: but we had one like cheap joke that we did
Speaker 2: with the U haul, which, by the way, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 1: Ready to be defensive. Here she goes, I'm ready to
Speaker 1: be defensive. We put the U haul joke in the
Speaker 1: slide show because we were like, it's time to talk
Speaker 1: about this classic classic stereotypes.
Speaker 2: But then all three of them are like Jesus Christ,
Speaker 2: like why.
Speaker 1: Would you put this in? And it was like, because
Speaker 1: I'm curious, how are you thinking about classic stereotype? Because
Speaker 1: gay car stereotype? It is like it's both embarrassing and
Speaker 1: annoying and true. And so I'm like, how do you
Speaker 1: guys feel about it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, but say love.
Speaker 1: I want to say that. As our string of records
Speaker 1: in New York comes to a near close, that's right.
Speaker 1: I feel a little bit. I have that thing where
Speaker 1: I'm like, did I say everything? And even though we
Speaker 1: slept two recordings today, I think back and I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, when a little kid is like really excited
Speaker 1: to do their dance for the parents, and then the
Speaker 1: parents are like, okay, dance and they don't move at all.
Speaker 1: I feel like that's what I did. I feel like
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm so excited to fucking show them
Speaker 1: everything I've got, and then as soon as they're like,
Speaker 1: okay recording, I'm like, so it do you guys like
Speaker 1: blue or green better?
Speaker 2: Don't you think though, that the concept of the big
Speaker 2: moment is like a straight thing. And actually the more
Speaker 2: queer sensibility is that it's just all of performance.
Speaker 1: Well, that's your last your theory life is a cabaret.
Speaker 2: Right, It's like life is a cabaret. It's not that
Speaker 2: life is preparation for the big.
Speaker 1: The stage doesn't end when samas not end exactly.
Speaker 2: So it's like if it's like the director yell's cut,
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean you're like, fuck, I didn't do what
Speaker 2: I was going to do. It's like, I'm going to
Speaker 2: do it now. I don't give a shit if the
Speaker 2: cameras are going to catch it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's true.
Speaker 2: And we have to bring in our guests because we
Speaker 2: are absolutely edging her as always.
Speaker 1: As always, this is truly exciting.
Speaker 2: I'm really excited I'm excited.
Speaker 1: I'm nervous. I feel that. You know, we have prestigious
Speaker 1: guests sometimes, by the way, all the time, all the
Speaker 1: time we are.
Speaker 2: We love having prestigious guests, and they love doing the podcast.
Speaker 2: Let's just want to start there. It's actually like.
Speaker 1: And not to be sort of animal farm coded, but
Speaker 1: some persigious guests, some more prestigious than others.
Speaker 2: That's true. And I would say this one's like in
Speaker 2: the top tier being prestigious.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so while all are prestigious, some are more
Speaker 1: presigious than others, and this is our most prestigious.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god. Okay, Well, you know her from
Speaker 2: her debut smash hit novel Detransition Baby, you know her
Speaker 2: from her new book stag Dance, and you know her
Speaker 2: as the guest of this episode of Straighter Lab. Please
Speaker 2: welcome Tory Peters. Hi, Hi, what do you think of
Speaker 2: her intro?
Speaker 4: To be honest, I was very interested in your interpretations
Speaker 4: of lesbian culture.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I could see you. We were really like torturing
Speaker 2: you because we were saying all these things that we
Speaker 2: want your toe.
Speaker 4: I wanted to jump in on. Yeah. Okay, thoughts, Well,
Speaker 4: I think you're correct.
Speaker 2: About Hans Okay, do you think.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it was a sex thing. I don't
Speaker 4: think I don't think anyone's gonna be a funded by that.
Speaker 4: You don't have to self cancel.
Speaker 1: I have to say it was as I'm currently you know,
Speaker 1: we unpack the podcast as we record the podcast, that's
Speaker 1: part of it. As I sit in the middle seat,
Speaker 1: I was finding myself not able to look at you
Speaker 1: for approval and reactions, so I had no the whole time.
Speaker 1: I was really flying blind.
Speaker 2: I was being very supportive. Yeah, thumbs up, big smile.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really helpful to know, because I was like,
Speaker 1: what if we're bombing and I can't I.
Speaker 4: Was wondering why you weren't making eye contact. I was waiting,
Speaker 4: ignoring me.
Speaker 1: I was really focused in on George.
Speaker 2: And then what do you think about generally self cancelate,
Speaker 2: like the idea that the lesbian small businesses started from
Speaker 2: THEE I mean.
Speaker 4: As you were saying that, I was like, oh, actually
Speaker 4: that is something that I think about, like this, I'm
Speaker 4: wearing this jacket, for instance, and it's I don't know
Speaker 4: if the owner of the company is a lesbian. I
Speaker 4: don't want to assume, but there's something kind of lesbian
Speaker 4: Kamala about the marketing of this it's an argent.
Speaker 2: Jacket, what was the marketing of it?
Speaker 4: And well, actually, Kamala, I think is one of their
Speaker 4: I think like a pink power suit. And I was like,
Speaker 4: I want I want exactly that to be like I
Speaker 4: want to blend in on my book tour. So I
Speaker 4: got like I was like what. I asked some some
Speaker 4: fast people like what should I get and they're like, well,
Speaker 4: this is the this is the thing in which nobody
Speaker 4: will have an opinion about your suits, and then.
Speaker 2: Being like, yeah, you don't want to be marked as
Speaker 2: like anything.
Speaker 4: I want like nobody to notice.
Speaker 2: It is your t shirts. Does your T shirt say
Speaker 2: tea for tea? It does, And you don't want to
Speaker 2: be you don't want to be worked as other in anyway.
Speaker 4: That was saying that was an air dressing air today.
Speaker 4: Yeah no, But I felt like like I want everybody
Speaker 4: to use my press photos. Basically I have good press
Speaker 4: photos and I found if I wore interesting clothing my
Speaker 4: last tour, it would be like these terrible candids that
Speaker 4: for whatever reason, especially Italian photographers, love taking awful photos
Speaker 4: of me.
Speaker 1: There was a conspiracy photographers want.
Speaker 4: I was just chased by like untalented Italian povers taking
Speaker 4: terrible candidates and then doing SEO optimization on their terrible pictures.
Speaker 4: And I think it was because they were like, oh,
Speaker 4: this is the this is a different outfit than the
Speaker 4: press outfit than the press photos, so we'll do this.
Speaker 1: They felt like they were being unique.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, So now I want to wear something that's
Speaker 4: like super bland, and if you were like, what's a
Speaker 4: good photo, they go with my press photo that is
Speaker 4: just available rather than you know, how bland in my
Speaker 4: bland terrible candidate.
Speaker 2: I did notice that in the photo on the jacket
Speaker 2: of the book, you are wearing a white pantsuit.
Speaker 4: I got rid of that one in the second printing to.
Speaker 2: Wait. So you thought that, because that, to me is
Speaker 2: very like Hillary Clinton meets like Annette Benning doing actors
Speaker 2: on acting.
Speaker 4: Yes, I was, that was like kind of what I
Speaker 4: was going for. And there's like such a such a
Speaker 4: history of like writers wearing white suits like Tom woll Well,
Speaker 4: Steve Martin's not really those are those are my two
Speaker 4: loads stocks in dressing. But I was like, yeah, I
Speaker 4: think this is going to be my suit era. But
Speaker 4: I've had to like have a couple of like restarts
Speaker 4: on what I want the suit to do.
Speaker 2: Okay, you, so then what is the new photo.
Speaker 4: The new photo is going to be my bland suit.
Speaker 4: I switched it out. I mean it's a good photo
Speaker 4: of me. But you don't really even notice a suit.
Speaker 2: That one is very suit you notice.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like your walk. You're You're doing a suit
Speaker 4: thing in the photo, and I'm sort of secondary to
Speaker 4: the suit.
Speaker 1: This is You're bringing up something I find really interesting,
Speaker 1: which is when you're launching sort of a new personal era,
Speaker 1: you have to make at least three missteps. First. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like I've been trying to go cowboy and I'm not
Speaker 1: doing it today. But I was like I leaned in
Speaker 1: way too hard. At first. I was like, I'm going
Speaker 1: full cowboy, Like I'm wearing like wranglers, cowboy boots, tucking
Speaker 1: the shirt and wearing a belt. And then it was
Speaker 1: like it was like confusing, and then I pull back, Yeah,
Speaker 1: like you can wear one. Yeah, you can't do full cowboy.
Speaker 1: It's silly.
Speaker 4: I feel that way about about the white suit. I mean,
Speaker 4: I'll do that very occasionally. I think it's like a
Speaker 4: special thing, but I think it's like the first printing
Speaker 4: is a white suit, and then we we pull back.
Speaker 1: You got to see how far you can go? Yeah,
Speaker 1: take one thing off.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but that was like the I think they were like,
Speaker 4: we're doing a reprint, and I was like, I have
Speaker 4: a new author.
Speaker 1: Fun does the idea of a book tour? Is that
Speaker 1: stressful or fun?
Speaker 4: It's it's fun for the first three weeks, and then
Speaker 4: you're it's not so much as stress as you're tired
Speaker 4: of yourself. Sure, like you get sort of they don't
Speaker 4: people want the greatest hits, you know, but like the
Speaker 4: greatest hits for you are like three jokes and like
Speaker 4: two ideas, and then you're like and then if you
Speaker 4: deviate actually from it, it's usually the terrible nights is
Speaker 4: when you when you think like, oh, I have a
Speaker 4: I have a great new idea that I'm going to
Speaker 4: try out this audience and it's like that was a
Speaker 4: that was that was a bad Isn't it.
Speaker 2: Also self perpetuating thing where like the people that are
Speaker 2: interviewing you do their research, hear what you said in
Speaker 2: other interviews, and then they're like, we heard when you
Speaker 2: were a kid, you had like a favorite doll that
Speaker 2: you played with, and so then you have to tell
Speaker 2: the story again and again.
Speaker 1: Yes, oh that's so interesting. I also realized talking about
Speaker 1: the podcast, when we make the podcast, me asking is
Speaker 1: it fun or boring to go on book tour, it
Speaker 1: was so like little kid.
Speaker 2: Reporter, you're doing like Nicola, like use for kids, Nicol.
Speaker 1: So what's your favorite candy? Like it was so.
Speaker 4: But that was this is like that you were just
Speaker 4: saying in the intar, the big moment where you're like
Speaker 4: do you like blue or gay? You know, it's like
Speaker 4: you're just doing it. This is part of the process
Speaker 4: and now you're doing it. And I relate to it
Speaker 4: because when I was like eight years old, I got
Speaker 4: a chance to interview Jane Jane Goodall, the famous primatologist,
Speaker 4: and I panicked and I said, so you like monkey
Speaker 4: And it was like exactly. This was like I had
Speaker 4: thought about it, like this is gonna be my moment,
Speaker 4: It's gonna be it, and that's just what came out,
Speaker 4: you know. So yeah, book tours kind of kind sometimes boring.
Speaker 1: I found that as an interviewer, you know, my child
Speaker 1: like wonder can be really charming, but as an interviewer,
Speaker 1: it can also be quite confusing. I think it's sort
Speaker 1: of like what are we doing here? You know?
Speaker 2: But I sort of think I think someone being interviewed ultimately,
Speaker 2: not to project us on to you, but generally speaking,
Speaker 2: someone being interviewed just wants to talk about what they
Speaker 2: want to talk about, sure, and so giving them the
Speaker 2: most like nothing question is like the best thing you
Speaker 2: can do, because then they can just like monologue.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the advanced interviewing.
Speaker 2: It's yeah, exactly, super So what we've learned so far
Speaker 2: is don't do your research because you will ask the
Speaker 2: same questions, and in fact, don't ask questions because that
Speaker 2: is boxing the interviewing in.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I felt your first ones fun or no was?
Speaker 4: I was like, well, this is my moment to just monologue.
Speaker 1: The word fun is so funny to ask like an
Speaker 1: author is writing fun.
Speaker 2: Okay, here's a final, final stupid question for you.
Speaker 1: I have a second final stupid question.
Speaker 2: We're doing such a good job. Yeah, okay, so my
Speaker 2: question for you is, like, I'm sure people are asking
Speaker 2: a lot of annoying questions. So my question for you is,
Speaker 2: what is like the question you wish someone would ask
Speaker 2: you that no one ever would.
Speaker 4: Then sorry, that question I get like every time.
Speaker 1: George, I was gonna be a bit I was about
Speaker 1: to say, I bet you get really.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then it's really hard because I'm like, I'm like, well,
Speaker 4: that question is actually a very common one. And then
Speaker 4: also you have to like calm up each time my
Speaker 4: new question that that because well last time that I
Speaker 4: got asked this question, which is, you know, a few
Speaker 4: days ago, I came up with like this as the
Speaker 4: thing I wish that somebody would ask me. And then
Speaker 4: like by the end, you're just like kind of making up,
Speaker 4: like and I'm like, I wish people would ask me
Speaker 4: about my shoes more like because everything else can ask
Speaker 4: because of that specific question I have.
Speaker 2: It's the theory. And maybe this is completely wrong. Do
Speaker 2: you think it's because people are like uncomfortable with asking
Speaker 2: about big quotes trans issues that they don't want to
Speaker 2: say the wrong thing, and so then they want you
Speaker 2: to tell them what to say.
Speaker 4: Maybe that's it. There's two things that happens. And the
Speaker 4: other thing that happens is that people are very proud
Speaker 4: to have not asked about TRANSI shoes for an entire interview.
Speaker 4: So but like the how proud they are that like
Speaker 4: we've only talked about writing in this interview, Like I
Speaker 4: don't even care that you're trans. You know, like you
Speaker 4: can like feel that so heavily and like as as
Speaker 4: they're like getting to the end, and it's like, and
Speaker 4: you've also only talked about writing, and we're kind of
Speaker 4: waiting for you to bring it up, but also we're
Speaker 4: proud that we never brought it up. Is like that
Speaker 4: that like slowly pressurizes that like stand off, you know
Speaker 4: that you're that I'm in and so I oftentimes will
Speaker 4: just break and be like I'm trans.
Speaker 2: It's like checkofs, check offs, check offs, trans representation. It's
Speaker 2: like is it going to be brought up?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Wow, okay, so what was your stupid question? And then
Speaker 2: we'll go into smart Yeah this is a smart part.
Speaker 1: Then we'll go into the smart section. I love the book,
Speaker 1: you know, I was. I think I didn't expect how
Speaker 1: horny it would be. To be honest, I was so
Speaker 1: I thought it was so horny.
Speaker 4: I would agree, but I felt, did you read my
Speaker 4: first book? It was not?
Speaker 1: I think was on here. I'd be like, no, but
Speaker 1: you I did read?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 4: But no, that that's interesting because I feel like the
Speaker 4: first book was hornier, like you know, like they she
Speaker 4: she gets like our ribbon tied around her junk, and
Speaker 4: maybe maybe you were just like that was sad.
Speaker 1: I did not like it, like the bag dance in particular,
Speaker 1: like the big guy like being like being like treat
Speaker 1: me as the woman. I was like, yeah, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: like so hot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think it was just the horniness
Speaker 2: that like you related to more than more.
Speaker 1: I was like literally, I was like, oh, this is
Speaker 1: why I like to hook up with bye guys, because
Speaker 1: they're like treating they're.
Speaker 4: So and then it's so like like they're so titillated
Speaker 4: and excited by like look what I'm doing now. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So, and then my dumb question was, do you think
Speaker 3: writing is the horniest medium?
Speaker 2: Yeah, ranked.
Speaker 1: Horning.
Speaker 4: If it is horny, it's like a masturbatory horning. It's
Speaker 4: like a very like you're like alone, kind of pleased
Speaker 4: with yourself, you know, and what you're like, I did it, Oh,
Speaker 4: I liked it. You know, Like that's the the scene
Speaker 4: maybe that you're thinking about in the Lumberjack thing where
Speaker 4: where the babions the o fish Lumberjack is hooking up
Speaker 4: with his boss and like a shanty. I wrote that
Speaker 4: one that day, and I was like, I don't know
Speaker 4: if I was like maybe it was a little turned on,
Speaker 4: but I also just like like so smugly pleased with
Speaker 4: myself that there was something very masturbatory about my emotions
Speaker 4: that day. That was like I left that day of
Speaker 4: writing as though I had just like taken odder on,
Speaker 4: like gone into like a per porn wormhole for six hours.
Speaker 1: Are you ever like, Okay, this is too horny? You
Speaker 1: have to pull back, Like it's not it's it's too horny,
Speaker 1: it's too hot.
Speaker 4: No, like usually usually it if it is. If it
Speaker 4: is that, then I am happy. And it's like maybe
Speaker 4: in like later edits, but like anything that's like too much,
Speaker 4: I like to sit with the too much for a while. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and have somebody else tell me that made them uncomfortable. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I loved it.
Speaker 1: I felt like, Yeah, a lot of the horniness I
Speaker 1: was relating to and the sort of like being like
Speaker 1: why am I doing this and then being like but
Speaker 1: I can't stop.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that that is that's for me, is
Speaker 4: like the kind of horness, like the confusing horniness I
Speaker 4: think is like a go to uh both something I
Speaker 4: go to, I guess emotionally confused horniness. I'm just very
Speaker 4: comfortable there. And and I also think it's like like
Speaker 4: I like characters who actually like don't totally understand what's
Speaker 4: happening to them, you know. Yeah, And I feel like
Speaker 4: hornedness is is a it is something that like happens
Speaker 4: to you sometimes rather than something you do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a curse. Then it's terminal.
Speaker 1: There are times when I've done like I'm walking to
Speaker 1: do something and I'm like, turn around, turn around, don't
Speaker 1: do this. Yeah, And it's like, but I have to.
Speaker 1: I won't rest until I go do this. I'm too
Speaker 1: horn I have to put my life in danger to
Speaker 1: go do this.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, it really feels like you're in train spotting, but
Speaker 2: it's instead of heroin, it's horniness.
Speaker 1: It's not right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's also I think similarly how your characters deal
Speaker 2: with their horniness. I also think the way they deal
Speaker 2: with their own cruelty is kind of been the same way.
Speaker 2: Like it they almost can't help it and can't understand
Speaker 2: where it's coming from, and they're half conscious of it,
Speaker 2: and they're almost like just conscious enough to feel guilty
Speaker 2: and self loathing about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think we've entered the smart smart question.
Speaker 2: It's like, are you yeah? Was that something like was
Speaker 2: the almost like the relationship between cruelty and horniness something
Speaker 2: that was in your mind?
Speaker 4: Well, I think cruelty is very intimate, right, Like I
Speaker 4: think that like when you don't know somebody and you
Speaker 4: do something like awful to them, that's just like sort
Speaker 4: of brutality. But that like when you know somebody and
Speaker 4: you like know their like vulnerabilities and there and and
Speaker 4: like the like the soft parts of them, and then
Speaker 4: you like kind of can't help yourself maybe because like
Speaker 4: you know them so well and you're just so like
Speaker 4: frustrated or irritated or no, that you just like go
Speaker 4: for those vulnerable areas. I mean, that's very intimate, right
Speaker 4: to know somebody so so in all their soft parts.
Speaker 4: So I think that, like, and that's exactly kind of
Speaker 4: what you want to know if you're horning too. So
Speaker 4: there is like the cruelty in the horningsh.
Speaker 2: My cruelty is finding the emotional g spot.
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.
Speaker 4: I'm going to borrow that for when I go on tour.
Speaker 4: I'm going to the UK. I think that I'll still
Speaker 4: love it.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Yeah you were telling me that, I
Speaker 2: you know what, You're gonna have a lovely time in London,
Speaker 2: go to the West End, see some plays. What a time.
Speaker 1: The other thing, this is more more of a reflection
Speaker 1: of my stupidity rather than a question. Okay, you know confidence,
Speaker 1: Well you know that meme.
Speaker 4: It's a good start.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know that meme. That's like me as someone
Speaker 1: who has only seen Trolls two World Tour watching you know,
Speaker 1: The Godfather. Wow, this is just like it were totally.
Speaker 1: I feel like the only like books that I read
Speaker 1: like that are about like like hard like fiction books
Speaker 1: about gender are like Ursula kay La Gwinn. So the
Speaker 1: whole time I was like, like, especially like the first one,
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, this is just like.
Speaker 4: I will take it. I mean as opposed to Trulls too.
Speaker 4: If you're like, this is just like Ursula Gwinn, Absolutely.
Speaker 2: Yeah I was.
Speaker 1: I liked I felt like it was fun that you
Speaker 1: were going so big and like sci fi with it.
Speaker 4: Like yeah, so like I was. I I wanted to
Speaker 4: do the promise for people haven't read it is that's
Speaker 4: each piece is like in a different genre and and
Speaker 4: that one. The first one is like a speculative fiction
Speaker 4: dystopian one about like a gender apocalypse. But I think
Speaker 4: it was also like that was the first one that
Speaker 4: I wrote, and it was because, uh, I think I
Speaker 4: was like it was like twenty sixteen and like Last
Speaker 4: of Us the video game come out, it was like
Speaker 4: the Road and also ours thing, and I was like, what
Speaker 4: genre is everybody into in twenty sixteen, and it was
Speaker 4: kind of yeah, like grimy, grimy, pust apocalyptic stuff, whereas
Speaker 4: like now I think I would I would never do
Speaker 4: like a pandemic.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, Oh so that was written free.
Speaker 2: I'm sure you've talked about this, but yeah, it was
Speaker 2: written pre pandemic.
Speaker 4: Its pre pandemic. Yeah, which, like I think is people
Speaker 4: are always like, why don't you expand that one into
Speaker 4: a full novel. I don't think you want me to
Speaker 4: do that, Like, I think you've kind of gone through it.
Speaker 2: Yourself totally totally. Although we were saying, how now it's
Speaker 2: been long enough. Actually Harry was saying this, right, someone
Speaker 2: was saying, like it's now been long enough that people
Speaker 2: are craving narratives about twenty twenty, not just the pandemic,
Speaker 2: but like even just like where the culture was in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, and how we were also unmoored from reality
Speaker 2: because we were, you know, just like undergoing this like
Speaker 2: insane experience all together but also alone. Yeah, So I'm
Speaker 2: almost like it's like to pick something like that back
Speaker 2: up now or even in like another three years.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean I felt actually like the other day when
Speaker 4: when Trump announced all of his teriffs, like and I
Speaker 4: felt the world kind of stopped for like a day.
Speaker 4: I had like a real like what does this feel like?
Speaker 4: What does this feel like? And then I was like, oh,
Speaker 4: it feels like March twenty twenty, where everyone's like is
Speaker 4: the economy crashing? Do I have a job?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 4: Should I stock like fill up my bathtub or whatever
Speaker 4: weird shit we were doing in twenty twenty. I had
Speaker 4: like a real like I called it like a snow day,
Speaker 4: like I don't remember what it was last week was
Speaker 4: like it was like a pandemic snow day, where I
Speaker 4: was like, is the world over? And I kind of
Speaker 4: wish that, like, yeah, that that had there had been
Speaker 4: like more culture about that weird feeling, because I feel like,
Speaker 4: apparently we're gonna just keep on having.
Speaker 2: Well that's the thing. I think microdosing March twenty twenty.
Speaker 2: It's like every few days you just go through like
Speaker 2: a less intense version of it, and it's it's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: shorter and more painful rather than this like long drawn
Speaker 2: out thing. Okay, I'm like so eager to get on
Speaker 2: the topic. We should do our fst SEC. What's our
Speaker 2: first second? Okay, Tori Sam, do you want to Our.
Speaker 1: First segment is called straight Shooters, and in this segment,
Speaker 1: we're going to ask you a series of rapidfier questions
Speaker 1: to gauge your familiarity with and complicity and straight culture.
Speaker 1: It's basically this thing or this other thing. And the
Speaker 1: only rule is you can't ask any followup questions or
Speaker 1: we'll scream at you.
Speaker 4: Can I ask a pre question?
Speaker 1: I think that might be a follow up question. And
Speaker 1: while you I wanted to say yes to, I have
Speaker 1: to be no.
Speaker 2: I was and real yeah, I also attempted to say
Speaker 2: yes because I was like, well, she's an author.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I was like, well, if I'm putting as much gravitas
Speaker 4: as I can to get away with to break the
Speaker 4: rules of your podcast.
Speaker 2: Should I sorry? Okay, We'll start simple being the goat
Speaker 2: or sinking a boat.
Speaker 1: Sinking a boat, okay, a dream come true? Or a
Speaker 1: steaming pot of stew.
Speaker 4: A steaming pot of stew does.
Speaker 2: Sne within reach? Or a headline that says impeach, I.
Speaker 4: Like design with's in reach?
Speaker 1: A task that's the sophician or a rash that's cyphilician.
Speaker 4: Oh, probably a taskian, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Thank you, okay, being queer and in stem or drinking
Speaker 2: beer but being fem Oh.
Speaker 4: Oh wow, I'm gonna say drinking beer and being.
Speaker 1: Fum Okay, okay, Lou tove Lou or mama rou What
Speaker 1: was the middle one?
Speaker 4: I don't know what that blows?
Speaker 1: Actual pronouncing of the name you answer to follow up?
Speaker 1: Got here? A constitutional crisis?
Speaker 2: This is this is twenty twenty all over again.
Speaker 1: People are hitting the streets.
Speaker 2: Well, I'll now, Lou, let's see which one do I
Speaker 2: want to do? The taming of the shrew or defaming Lucy.
Speaker 1: Lou face card never declines, Oh my god, that's Ray Fines.
Speaker 4: I like Ray Fines. I'm excited to see Ray Fines.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, it's Refines.
Speaker 1: I'm actually excited to see Ray Fines as well. Whenever
Speaker 1: I see him, I'm like wow, that's very fine.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And also there's you know what ray Fines is to me.
Speaker 1: You know how people when you know how to say
Speaker 1: luev right, you get to have like a step up
Speaker 1: over like sixty percent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well yeah, like that's you and rape.
Speaker 1: Literally like I see that name and I go, I
Speaker 1: know how to say that.
Speaker 2: Okay, so because it's not spelled like it's spelled ralph,
Speaker 2: but it's rafe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's spelled Ralph Fiennes. And you say, you say rain.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're in the no.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Jory, we rank each gets performance on a
Speaker 2: scale of zero to one thousand doves and or zero
Speaker 2: to one thousand. We have decided based on based on
Speaker 2: two Gaga songs to songs. I have to say. Here's
Speaker 2: what I'm struggling with. I'm like, do we reward the
Speaker 2: boldness of asking a followup question because she beat us
Speaker 2: at her own game? Or do we punish because because
Speaker 2: she did the one thing that.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I believe a wise man once said
Speaker 1: that cruelty is the g spot.
Speaker 2: So oh my god, you did that to us. You
Speaker 2: like found you found our one weakness and used it
Speaker 2: against us.
Speaker 4: I made it pleasurable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, literally, I think we should punish.
Speaker 2: Oh, okay, we should punish. Okay, So I would say,
Speaker 2: without the follow up question, it would have been nine
Speaker 2: hundred and thirty doves.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fact.
Speaker 2: But with the deduction of six hundreds, six hundreds, it's
Speaker 2: gonna go ahead and be three hundred and thirty five duffs.
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry, Tori. That's not a passing.
Speaker 4: But what is that? And what is that in blades
Speaker 4: of grass?
Speaker 2: Okay, So there's inflation when it comes to places of grass,
Speaker 2: the grass I get it's more closer to like six fifty.
Speaker 1: It's more closer to six fifty.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good change. You're like in other countries.
Speaker 4: I'll do all right.
Speaker 2: When you're in the UK, you can pay. Yeah, you're
Speaker 2: actually somehow making Yeah, certainly have more than a I'm.
Speaker 4: So glad I did this podcast before I went over.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, horse, should we get into the straight
Speaker 1: I would love to hear so behind the scenes. George
Speaker 1: knows the topic. I do not, and I'm so excited
Speaker 1: to hear what street topic is and what's straight about it.
Speaker 4: So it's a working theory. But my straight topic is
Speaker 4: prolonged divorce and my theory is that you don't know
Speaker 4: if you're in a gay marriage or a straight marriage
Speaker 4: until you get divorced, and it is how long how
Speaker 4: prolonged your divorces that determines how gay or straight you're
Speaker 4: you're your.
Speaker 2: Marriages, and the more.
Speaker 4: The straighter is, the more prolonged your marriage that you
Speaker 4: can And it doesn't really matter your gender or how
Speaker 4: you identify. It's like it's like when you don't know
Speaker 4: and then you get divorced and if it goes on
Speaker 4: like two years, you were in a straight march of
Speaker 4: all time.
Speaker 1: Because the queer thing is being like I don't I
Speaker 1: take my possessions, I don't care, Like.
Speaker 4: No, I don't think it's even like that, Like I
Speaker 4: think like but I think it's like I think it's
Speaker 4: like you just can't let go. And I think it's
Speaker 4: just like you can't let go because like of you're
Speaker 4: just like have ended up very headot in your thing
Speaker 4: where like one person knows how to cook, one person
Speaker 4: knows where like the drain on the sink is, and
Speaker 4: you can't leave each other because you're like, how am
Speaker 4: I going to drain the sink without this person? How
Speaker 4: am I going to turn on the stove or do
Speaker 4: all these things and so you just you just you
Speaker 4: dry it out forever. And because I'm I'm forty three
Speaker 4: now and I'm I'm like, I had one round of
Speaker 4: well I to divorce myself, but like a round of
Speaker 4: divorces with a like age thirty and now. And I
Speaker 4: think it was mostly like queer ish people who are
Speaker 4: getting divorced at thirty, where they were like usually discovering
Speaker 4: they were queer or something and they're like, oh, I
Speaker 4: gotta go. And now it's like straight people in my
Speaker 4: life in their forties and they are just trying it
Speaker 4: out four years and I'm just like and everything that
Speaker 4: they do is so staright, just like you can just
Speaker 4: stop this, just stop it.
Speaker 2: Don't you think it has to do with like the
Speaker 2: more you buy into the institution, for lack of a
Speaker 2: better word, the more violent it is to break it apart,
Speaker 2: because it's like, yes, the more you believe in marriage,
Speaker 2: the more difficult it is to step away from it,
Speaker 2: like you have literally it's all been leading to that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And I think that's actually what drives me
Speaker 4: crazy about this is like every like just get away
Speaker 4: from each other, like just you don't need this, like
Speaker 4: you'll be happier and like, and they just can't see
Speaker 4: they can't see that like it needs to end. You're
Speaker 4: torturing each other, and there's something like I'm just like,
Speaker 4: just like this what is happening is like straightness is
Speaker 4: torturing you all rather than you know, even each other
Speaker 4: are torturing each other. And I've noticed it actually, like again,
Speaker 4: like it doesn't even have to be straight people, Like
Speaker 4: there's some some gay marriage couples that I know where
Speaker 4: I'm just like, the way you're doing this is like
Speaker 4: you've you've believed in it too much. You've like entered
Speaker 4: into straightness and it's and I didn't know it the
Speaker 4: whole time you were together, but now that you're divorcing,
Speaker 4: I see that you were in a straight marriage all totally.
Speaker 2: I actually, I think more broadly gay you know, since
Speaker 2: gay people have been able to get married, there are
Speaker 2: there is a spectrum of on the one side, gay
Speaker 2: people almost like wanting to emulate straight people and on
Speaker 2: the other side being like excited to do something new
Speaker 2: with this new right, you know what I mean. And
Speaker 2: so it's like there's a spectrum of straight to gay
Speaker 2: marriage within gay marriage.
Speaker 4: I agree with you. Wow, I agree with that, And
Speaker 4: I mean I even think like you were you were
Speaker 4: saying that like on a previous show that you had
Speaker 4: you had classified what.
Speaker 2: Was it, divorces Lesbian marriage is straight, and like staying
Speaker 2: together without getting divorced is gay male, right because they're like.
Speaker 1: But like they don't hook up anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like staying in an happy marriage basically is gay
Speaker 2: male because they're all open, so they don't feel the
Speaker 2: need to escape because they just like can't escape every
Speaker 2: night basically, yeah, but just like come home and resent
Speaker 2: their husband. And of course the classic thing, my favorite
Speaker 2: thing when it's a gay couple and they're like in
Speaker 2: a fight, another person enters the room and one of
Speaker 2: the husbands goes, oh, look there's your boyfriend.
Speaker 4: But see, to me, that is like that even Okay,
Speaker 4: So let's if you just take that, like gay couple
Speaker 4: not having sex together forever, that is either like the
Speaker 4: most kind of like oh you've like solved marriage, like
Speaker 4: you are like the most enlightened thing, or it's actually
Speaker 4: like you are the you have like reverted to such
Speaker 4: straightness that yeah, or even like the Catholic church in
Speaker 4: like the fifteen hundreds, like divorce does not exist for you.
Speaker 4: You just have to live with each other, and like
Speaker 4: and like dream one day of like how could we
Speaker 4: possibly separate? It's unthinkable. God does not allow it, you know,
Speaker 4: And it's like that's the straightest, the straightest you could
Speaker 4: possibly be, is two gay men living together.
Speaker 1: It is interesting. It's always like obviously there's no right answer,
Speaker 1: but I'm sort of like is that better? Like there's
Speaker 1: so many guys Ryan, like could you just break up?
Speaker 1: Like let's call it, Like it would be so much
Speaker 1: better if you just broke up.
Speaker 2: It is interesting how that is almost the default for
Speaker 2: long term GI guy relationships. Yeah, where then everyone under
Speaker 2: their breath is like yeah, they're always like this.
Speaker 4: It's it is and like the even the bickering that
Speaker 4: you that you just said that there as your boyfriend
Speaker 4: or whatever. It's like that you just stage that with
Speaker 4: like slightly different actors and you're like, oh, this is
Speaker 4: this is the most conservative like yeah, like British period
Speaker 4: that we're watching, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I'm finding this really interesting because Okay,
Speaker 2: so basically is finality gay or straight? I think it's
Speaker 2: like a larger question and out of go ahead.
Speaker 1: Well, I think finality is more straight, to be honest,
Speaker 1: and I think that's why they make it last longer,
Speaker 1: because they know when it's over it's actually over, whereas
Speaker 1: when gay people are breaking up, they are like, we're divorced,
Speaker 1: it's over, but we still get lunch every three months.
Speaker 2: Rare, right, So finality is straight and that there's a
Speaker 2: gravity to it that straight people are afraid of. They're like,
Speaker 2: I will do anything but finality. Yes. Yeah, So in
Speaker 2: their fight against finality, they are like hurting themselves.
Speaker 1: Yeah when they could, they could. Sort of life is
Speaker 1: a cabaret thing, you know. Gay people know when the
Speaker 1: cameras are off the stage, you're still on stage, and
Speaker 1: so you know, when the marriage is over, you're still
Speaker 1: gonna have a relationship with a person. It's just a
Speaker 1: different relationship where the straight people are like when the
Speaker 1: cameras are off, I'm off stage.
Speaker 2: God.
Speaker 4: But I also think that the willingness to be final
Speaker 4: would be gay, like a willingness to like to lean
Speaker 4: in and be like, I'm breaking ties and I'm changing everything.
Speaker 2: To make a stag I am.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly, like everything's new about me now, Like
Speaker 4: that that is that that well, it's.
Speaker 2: Like I'm wearing the They're literally debuting like a I'm
Speaker 2: divorced era, and then they're like, actually, I'm pulling back.
Speaker 1: I'm not fully out.
Speaker 2: Well, there's also something I think like gay people, because
Speaker 2: they kind of have this reverence for like a diva,
Speaker 2: a straight woman who like a divorce a. I almost
Speaker 2: think like to be divorced is so fabulous, whereas like
Speaker 2: for a sort of like a straight woman who married
Speaker 2: her high school sweetheart, it's such a sign of failure.
Speaker 1: It is a real sign of failure. I mean, to
Speaker 1: be divorced in like the Sexlent City universe is fabulous.
Speaker 1: Well that is, of course, but I do think in
Speaker 1: like normal world it can be quite difficult.
Speaker 2: What do you think of the recent And you cannot
Speaker 2: answer this if you don't want to comment on your peers,
Speaker 2: But there's been sort of a recent rise in like
Speaker 2: divorce literature. Yeah, mostly from women. I would say, yeah,
Speaker 2: in my experience, Like, what do you think that is about?
Speaker 4: Well, it was like, I mean that was like the detransition.
Speaker 4: Maybe my first book was dedicated to divorces women. Oh yes, yeah,
Speaker 4: So it was like I felt like I was very
Speaker 4: much a part of this like divorce thing, and like
Speaker 4: you know, kind of what I was saying is like
Speaker 4: divorce is a transition in the same way that like
Speaker 4: you know, because you you live your life a certain
Speaker 4: way and then you and then you make a decision
Speaker 4: and then you have to like go forward and not
Speaker 4: get bitter. And also you can't just like go get
Speaker 4: married again in the same way with the same illusions,
Speaker 4: otherwise you're gonna end divorced you And so I was like, oh,
Speaker 4: like we can all understand each other, and I but
Speaker 4: I feel that this is actually and so I was like, oh,
Speaker 4: we can, we can build bridges, we can understand each other,
Speaker 4: and like actually, like you can like divorce straight system
Speaker 4: and you can sort of be trans in a little
Speaker 4: bit of your way. But this is actually sort of
Speaker 4: the twenty twenties culture that that like I feel like
Speaker 4: maybe Hari was talking about that you were talking about,
Speaker 4: Like I feel like that actually now to me feels
Speaker 4: like a little bit naive, like this this sort of
Speaker 4: like oh, we can all just can kind of like
Speaker 4: understand and take responsibility for our for our actions and
Speaker 4: like not lie to each other. Like I think that
Speaker 4: that's like not true for like having watched people that
Speaker 4: now get divorced. I'm like, oh no, you're just going
Speaker 4: to continue to lie to each other. And so some degree,
Speaker 4: like for me, like watching like trans shit over like
Speaker 4: the last four years is like, oh no, this is
Speaker 4: like like you can understand trans people, and actually it's
Speaker 4: not gonna it's not going to make anything any better.
Speaker 4: So I'm like a little bit like down on divorce literature,
Speaker 4: right yeah, though I think there's like lots of good
Speaker 4: books that do it. I'm sort of like it's like
Speaker 4: I actually don't want to reread the whole like Ferranti series,
Speaker 4: which like in twenty twenties you've been like do you
Speaker 4: want to reread Fernto? I'd be like any day, all
Speaker 4: the time, I'll do it. I'm like I actually want
Speaker 4: like more things burned down now than I want it.
Speaker 1: Than I want Like yeah, Like.
Speaker 2: So you're sort of you've turned on divorce as an
Speaker 2: optimistic Yeah yeah, kind of.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like and I don't know what replaces it, but
Speaker 4: but sort of like oh, you can just kind of
Speaker 4: like go through this ritual take stock of like what
Speaker 4: you want and who you are, and that's going to
Speaker 4: be like enough to like move forward. I like don't
Speaker 4: at this moment, like I sort of don't believe it,
Speaker 4: Like I feel like, oh, you you something more than
Speaker 4: that needs to happen like that, and and I and
Speaker 4: in that metaphor of like divorce and transition, like I
Speaker 4: also think that like it goes across for a transition,
Speaker 4: where like it was a there was a while was like,
Speaker 4: oh you just transition and then you and then you
Speaker 4: can live your life as you want. It's like that's
Speaker 4: not enough anymore.
Speaker 1: Well that was the plot of Amelia Perez.
Speaker 2: Ye, that's actually not the plot of Amelia Prez if
Speaker 2: you remember the ending.
Speaker 1: But well, I think, but I think what she's saying
Speaker 1: is the plot where it's like you think you can.
Speaker 2: You yeah, the critique is the plot of Amelia Press
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 4: And then you I haven't seen that. I've only watched
Speaker 4: like clips of it, but I understand that somebody falls
Speaker 4: down the mountain.
Speaker 1: Go ahead and fall down the mountain and explode.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: She explodes the best way for any movie to end.
Speaker 1: And I actually think more movies should end that way.
Speaker 2: It's so complicated. I've spent so much time thinking about Amelia.
Speaker 4: Perez from I started watching it on a plane, and
Speaker 4: I was just like, this isn't the place, yeah, for
Speaker 4: this movie and for me, and like and I got
Speaker 4: when it started this tour, I got so many again
Speaker 4: not to be like so many questions are the same,
Speaker 4: but I got a lot of them, like what you
Speaker 4: think of Amelia Prez. And I was like halfway through
Speaker 4: watching on a plane, kind of not understanding what was
Speaker 4: going on, and I was like, and then I'm going
Speaker 4: to go in like a pine about this movie, totally
Speaker 4: not understanding the edited version of it. So I just
Speaker 4: I turned it off and I haven't returned to it.
Speaker 2: I have to say, it's interesting that there's this idea
Speaker 2: of trans backlash against Amelia Press, because every trans person
Speaker 2: I know has opted out of seeing it, and they've
Speaker 2: been very much like you know, I'm not at a
Speaker 2: place where I can watch that right now, Like it's
Speaker 2: I actually think the backlash is almost like manufactured by
Speaker 2: sis people who are guilty about watching it or something.
Speaker 2: And then like imagine an imaginary like mob of trans
Speaker 2: people that are mad at Amelia Press.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's something to that. Yeah, there the
Speaker 1: backlash is like I'm like, okay, like it does ye
Speaker 1: are doing here.
Speaker 2: It almost reminds me of my favorite topic, which is
Speaker 2: the women that got sent to space and how we're
Speaker 2: at a place where like something like that, which in
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen would be like the big
Speaker 2: news of the day. No one cares enough either to
Speaker 2: be empowered by it or to be angry about it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just a numbness. It's just like a numbness. Like
Speaker 2: don't can't you imagine like a time in like twenty
Speaker 2: fifteen where like every website would be have like a
Speaker 2: screed about like the pitfalls of girl bossery. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: it's like no one gives a shit anymore.
Speaker 4: No, I mean, it's just like but it's it's sort
Speaker 4: of like also like we've seen this grift so many times.
Speaker 4: Yeah too, It's like we've seen it with like a
Speaker 4: deep water submarine. We've seen it.
Speaker 1: Like it's one kind of also ended in Amelia Press
Speaker 1: with Yeah, that's true, I remember that.
Speaker 4: That's it. If it I guess if that if they
Speaker 4: had fallen down a mountain and explodage, Yes, the space
Speaker 4: hip full of Katy Perry and gay okay and stuff,
Speaker 4: people would have talked about.
Speaker 1: Nory but that's what we need committed to sending a message.
Speaker 1: They should have.
Speaker 2: Committed to be creating a Melia pressed that would exploded.
Speaker 2: But also it's almost like Ameili Prize is like the
Speaker 2: transrepresentation version of women in Space for Girl Boss, where
Speaker 2: it's like we've now gone through the conversation and not
Speaker 2: just transrepresentation any kind of like representation politics. We've now
Speaker 2: gone through the debate of like is it good is
Speaker 2: a bad? Is it good as a bad? So many
Speaker 2: times that something like a Melei Prize comes along and
Speaker 2: I'm almost just like unable to even form an opinion
Speaker 2: about it. Yeah, it's like remixing existing arguments that have
Speaker 2: been had so many times.
Speaker 4: Yeah, including even like the trans backlash, right, Yeah, like
Speaker 4: the imagined mob of like of like somehow trans people
Speaker 4: who all have the same opinion. Yeah, it's like you
Speaker 4: have to you have not met trans people if you
Speaker 4: think there's a mob of them that are somehow in
Speaker 4: lockstep or like can I even like not just be
Speaker 4: like cats like batting at each other if you put
Speaker 4: them together, you know, like that is you that's imagined.
Speaker 4: It's totally imagined situation that they can chant the same
Speaker 4: thing at the same.
Speaker 2: Time honestly goes back to the lesbian own business that's
Speaker 2: doomed to fail. It's like they're not agreeing in those meetings.
Speaker 1: I mean also in the Mask or the last story
Speaker 1: of the book, it was that was very that where
Speaker 1: it was like this is everyone's like, it's a meet up,
Speaker 1: but everyone's on such a different page.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean sometimes it's like the when I talk
Speaker 4: about that, it's like it's like we're all kind of
Speaker 4: we're all kind of like standing in the same public square,
Speaker 4: but like we we all came from like all four
Speaker 4: cardinal directions, And if you'd be like, how do you
Speaker 4: get here, it'd be like I came over that hill
Speaker 4: and I saw a coward's like, I have no idea
Speaker 4: what journey you took. I have no idea the landmarks
Speaker 4: on your way. Like everything you're saying is alien and
Speaker 4: strange to me. And the only thing that we have
Speaker 4: is that we're kind of like standing in like like
Speaker 4: a general vicinity. We're not on the same table. It's
Speaker 4: like I see you, like, oh you had You're eating
Speaker 4: ice cream and I'm having a coffee. You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is interesting. I do feel like there's a
Speaker 1: push to try to like make it seem like almost
Speaker 1: like trans people are the like like gay guys, where
Speaker 1: it's like the culture of gay guy is and it's
Speaker 1: like it does it's not one to one.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, But but I also think that like
Speaker 4: that ends up being like the useful thing is it,
Speaker 4: Like let's let's let's pretend that all trans people like
Speaker 4: are out here in a mob telling telling us what
Speaker 4: we can or can't say, and it's like, yeah, thats
Speaker 4: just it's.
Speaker 2: Not And they were all appointed by Biden.
Speaker 4: But yeah, exact.
Speaker 2: It was Biden appointed the trans mob.
Speaker 1: The head of which was the Suitcase Steeler my favorite.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, that was a good Biden appointing.
Speaker 1: That was that was like Biden kind of ate with
Speaker 1: that one.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was that that. I was just laughing picturing
Speaker 4: that person and picturing also like the protests like that
Speaker 4: that the way that that person protested, like that I
Speaker 4: did steal suitcase.
Speaker 1: But like wearing the outfits all over so genius. I Also,
Speaker 1: now there's a thing I feel very conspiratorial around internet
Speaker 1: backlash in general, because it feels like like websites are
Speaker 1: basically like we need to find four tweets and then
Speaker 1: we can say there's a backlash, and it's like it's
Speaker 1: not about thought.
Speaker 2: Also, but also I have become so conspiratory. I mean
Speaker 2: I've become so conspiratorial about literally everything being paid bots,
Speaker 2: which is I remember in when people were like when
Speaker 2: I'm whatever, like the kind of stereotypical center lib, you know,
Speaker 2: fifty year old post Trump was like the Russians Russian bots,
Speaker 2: like it's Cambergenolytica, and I was like, oh god, you
Speaker 2: guys need to get it together. Now I have become that.
Speaker 2: But for like a thread that's like, you know, Azelia
Speaker 2: bakes his worst moment, I'm like someone paid for that.
Speaker 2: I the Blake Lively, like the Blake Lively thing. The
Speaker 2: only conclusion I drew from that is like, Okay, so
Speaker 2: it's all fake. There's no one actually mad that Blake
Speaker 2: Lively or or there's no one that actually in their
Speaker 2: mind is like, wow, she actually was really rude to
Speaker 2: that interviewer. It's literally just like someone behind the scenes
Speaker 2: that bleep agency.
Speaker 4: But that is a very appealing worldview in Summay. That
Speaker 4: actually makes you sound very chill like, even though it
Speaker 4: makes you sound like you're like wearing. It's like also
Speaker 4: like you're like the chilliest to netwhere you're like, it's
Speaker 4: just it's just the bots to chill out. Everybody loves.
Speaker 1: It's actually, yeah, it's kind of beautiful. You're even like,
Speaker 1: no one's mad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then I'm also like the most well, I'm like,
Speaker 2: no one's mad. But then I'm also like we're living
Speaker 2: in like the last of Us post apocalyptic world because
Speaker 2: no one knows what's real or what's fake.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but soon it'll all be over.
Speaker 2: Oh that's true, kind of cheerful.
Speaker 1: Who cares? They love you based podcast. I find it
Speaker 1: to be a really powerful mantra.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: I find it there's a silliness to it. There's a
Speaker 1: sort of detachment to it. Yeah, And I think both
Speaker 1: of those are really important right now, Tori, I want.
Speaker 2: To give you a challenge, which is, you know, for
Speaker 2: each of these stories, you experimented with a different genre.
Speaker 2: I would love to see you experiment with the genre
Speaker 2: of middle brow humor, essays of the type that you
Speaker 2: find at airports. And I want you to write a
Speaker 2: book that's called like, you know, someone's on my seat, not.
Speaker 3: Me, writing a book for you to read on the
Speaker 3: airplane and other concerns.
Speaker 4: I would. I mean, I feel like that's actually like
Speaker 4: the dream, yeah is it like you know, you get
Speaker 4: like you get like a I feel like actually a
Speaker 4: lot of like really great writers get to a point
Speaker 4: in their life where they're like offered a cruise, you know,
Speaker 4: and then cruises. Oh yeah, like the famous like David
Speaker 4: Foster Wallace, like a supposedly fun that you've never yeah
Speaker 4: where never done whatever it.
Speaker 2: Is, I'll never do it again.
Speaker 4: I'll never do it again. Like it's like it was
Speaker 4: like he basically just like I get to go on
Speaker 4: like a carnival cruise or whatever, and I'll like try
Speaker 4: and elevate it. And then he was like riffing on
Speaker 4: like Frank Conroy going on a carnival crew on some
Speaker 4: other cruise where you get any st just did it?
Speaker 4: Ger Steiner? I mean Gary Steiner loves to go on
Speaker 4: like a paid travel thing like.
Speaker 2: I know, but I'm also like I stand like.
Speaker 4: I know absolutely, like I would love to hear him
Speaker 4: like in dubibing like I'm eating chicken hearts and like
Speaker 4: whatever it is. It's like and you got paid ten
Speaker 4: thousand dollars to do this and like you don't care,
Speaker 4: like the way I mean, I love the way that
Speaker 4: Gary Steiner doesn't care that it was like I just
Speaker 4: wrote an entire novel about roll Axis. You know that's
Speaker 4: like that's just I have a nice watch. I like
Speaker 4: my watch, and now that's my novel. Like I kind
Speaker 4: of appreciate his like his like just just what I've
Speaker 4: gotten recently for free is the thing that interests me.
Speaker 4: And I understand.
Speaker 3: You know when you said writers go on cruise, I
Speaker 3: was thinking about like how comedians going.
Speaker 4: I was.
Speaker 1: Like, they're performing.
Speaker 4: I mean it's sort of similar though, like Lauren Oiler
Speaker 4: went on the Goop.
Speaker 2: Cruise this podcast.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Lauren Oiler did it and did like and did
Speaker 4: the same you know, very very funny, but did the
Speaker 4: same thing. Where it's like, now that I'm on a
Speaker 4: cruise as a writer, I'm going to reference every other
Speaker 4: writer who is on a cruise as a sort of
Speaker 4: like way of like this is a literary tradition and
Speaker 4: also I got a free cruise, Like.
Speaker 2: I think it's great. I know that people do roll
Speaker 2: their eyes at that genre, but I'm like it's fun
Speaker 2: to it's fun for something to be like a thing
Speaker 2: you revisit. I'm trying to think of like what an
Speaker 2: equivalent thing is for It's like even honestly Chelsea Pretty
Speaker 2: and her special when she's like every comedian, every male
Speaker 2: comedian fucks the stool, like doesn't act where they fuck
Speaker 2: the stool, and so Chelsea.
Speaker 4: How do you make it yours?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean yours? And so Chelsea's thing is like
Speaker 2: I want to sort of riff on that by doing
Speaker 2: For me, it's I'm passively taking it from the stool.
Speaker 2: She's just like is like right by the stool, and
Speaker 2: she's just like sitting there and then she's like and
Speaker 2: then things got crazy and she turns around in her butt.
Speaker 2: She's just sitting there. But it's like, yeah, that's actually
Speaker 2: what culture is.
Speaker 1: No, it's it's how you interpret it and reference it. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean, if someone offered me a cruise at this point,
Speaker 4: it's like got such a tradition that I wouldn't just
Speaker 4: be like I would of course be like I'm a
Speaker 4: little bit selling out and I'm taking the cruise, but
Speaker 4: I would also be like like sort of like I'm
Speaker 4: in that camp, like I'm more an oiler you engouraged. Yeah,
Speaker 4: kir Stein guard camp like that's quite uh, I'm quite
Speaker 4: honored to be to be offered the chance to sell
Speaker 4: out for a cruise, and I mean I would Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, you don't, well, cruise directors, Yeah, this is mags
Speaker 1: mm hmm.
Speaker 2: Although you know, cruises are actually really scary because did
Speaker 2: you read that New York mag piece about cruises about
Speaker 2: the people that got left behind and then could not
Speaker 2: make their way back. So there are these people on
Speaker 2: a cruise and they like they were dropped off at
Speaker 2: one of the stops and then we're like running to
Speaker 2: get back on the cruisehip, but the cruise ship left
Speaker 2: without them, and then it describes this they weren't Basically
Speaker 2: cruise ships have no liability whatsoever, like no laws applied
Speaker 2: to them. People like a shocking number of people die
Speaker 2: on cruise every year and no one is held accountable.
Speaker 2: These people were trying to get back on the cruise
Speaker 2: and the cruise was just like we don't care, like
Speaker 2: we're just gonna like do our thing. They had medical
Speaker 2: issues that they didn't have their medicine for because the
Speaker 2: medicine was still on the cruise. It's like this insane
Speaker 2: thing that you're sort of like basically just putting your
Speaker 2: life in their hand and the cruise ship company's hands.
Speaker 4: It's like the law of the sea applies, is like
Speaker 4: maritime law.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's a combination of that and also some version
Speaker 2: of basically cruise company lobbying such that they're very loosely regulated.
Speaker 4: And I guess I sort of hear about that this
Speaker 4: sort of like weird ghost ships of like cruise cruise
Speaker 4: ships for everybody has neuro virus at the same.
Speaker 2: Time, and like, and the most scary thing is that
Speaker 2: cruise people like people that because the thing with cruise
Speaker 2: people is that most people on a cruise our serial
Speaker 2: cruise ship go right. It's like a cult. And so
Speaker 2: when you raise these points to them, it's like you're
Speaker 2: talking with scientologists. Like they don't accept, Like you'll be
Speaker 2: like they're because the bridget read the writer who wrote
Speaker 2: the story like interviewed a lot of cruise ship people,
Speaker 2: and they like would not accept that cruise ship companies
Speaker 2: make mistakes, like they were just and they would be
Speaker 2: mad at the people who got left and they were like, well,
Speaker 2: they told us, like you have to be back by
Speaker 2: ten fifty five, even while someone's dying.
Speaker 4: That is very religious sort of.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well this is maybe a point to we need
Speaker 1: to sort of lower the bar for the type of
Speaker 1: like the writer that can go on a cruise ship.
Speaker 1: You shouldn't. It shouldn't be like sort of you've made
Speaker 1: a really successful career and now you get to do
Speaker 1: cruise ship. They need to get beginning journalists out there.
Speaker 1: It should be an unpaid on paid internership, because we
Speaker 1: need more journalists on cruise ships to uncover what is
Speaker 1: going on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's true enough sort of.
Speaker 1: Language about what it means to be on a cruise
Speaker 1: and more about like the crimes that are being committed.
Speaker 2: Actually, I have a question for your toy. We were
Speaker 2: talking about this at some point, what with the contemporary
Speaker 2: version of specifically David Foster Wallis in that era going
Speaker 2: on a cruise should be like, yes, the writer going
Speaker 2: on a cruise is a tradition and everyone does it,
Speaker 2: but at this point it's so referenced, it's so referencing
Speaker 2: past cruise ships that it's barely about like it's not
Speaker 2: really about like what it says about society that we
Speaker 2: go on cruise ships. Like the contemporary thing would be
Speaker 2: something like what is so like Lynchean and postmodern about
Speaker 2: society that you that someone would comment on like is
Speaker 2: it going to like an influencer conference, is it going
Speaker 2: to like what is so depraved about our society that
Speaker 2: now you would want like a high brow writer to
Speaker 2: perform analysisan.
Speaker 4: Okay, well I have two thoughts on that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: One is that I feel like this, like one of
Speaker 4: the things that's happened is that this genre has been
Speaker 4: like sort of exhausted, like we're going to find the
Speaker 4: lynching thing so like even and it ends up becoming
Speaker 4: like depraved in the practice of it. Yes, Like I
Speaker 4: feel like the number of writers who are like I'm
Speaker 4: going to like a right I'm going to go hang
Speaker 4: out with like right wing influencers and try and like
Speaker 4: make them interesting to us, Like I'm the it makes
Speaker 4: me like sick.
Speaker 2: It's like a Morley bankrupt project.
Speaker 4: It's like this this this idea of like, oh, we're
Speaker 4: just going to find out what the what the you know,
Speaker 4: we're gonna find out what the fascist think, you know,
Speaker 4: at their little and their little fashion like oh they
Speaker 4: wear this hat or they wear this shoe. Ooh interesting.
Speaker 4: It's like that's we're no longer like at the State
Speaker 4: Fair with David Foster Wallis where like we're laundering something
Speaker 4: when we do this. So I'm like, I'm kind of
Speaker 4: like I'm kind of like in the typical magazine version
Speaker 4: of this, I'm like this this thing is it doesn't
Speaker 4: work anyway are now? And so like, because I too
Speaker 4: am always like what what is a great magazine assignment
Speaker 4: that I could like picture myself where I get to
Speaker 4: go do something kind of enjoyable and eat nice food
Speaker 4: and you know, I absolutely want that, you know, and
Speaker 4: and that I but then I could also be saying
Speaker 4: something while I'm doing it, and like most of the
Speaker 4: things I could be saying are like kind of awful
Speaker 4: at this point. But I will say that I think
Speaker 4: that probably the frontiers on this are like I would
Speaker 4: like to see a serious writer take on Discord Gooning.
Speaker 3: No, this is so good, Yeah, that would like I
Speaker 3: feel like it's not not a thing in life, but
Speaker 3: like that there's like whole like cultures that like I
Speaker 3: need somebody that are like that are like not like, oh,
Speaker 3: it's like a great place you go to, but like
Speaker 3: the like I didn't know about Discord Gooning until like
Speaker 3: last year, and then I was like fascinated with discord gooning, and.
Speaker 2: Can you actually explain what it is?
Speaker 4: So like you have like whatever your fetish is, right,
Speaker 4: it's like there's discords, yeah, right where your thing is.
Speaker 4: You sign under a discord and there's like there's like
Speaker 4: thousands of other people on these discords and that like
Speaker 4: then you like spend all day gooning, you know, like
Speaker 4: but but like it's it's like so it's like it's
Speaker 4: like I knew about this basic thing from like chat
Speaker 4: when I was like okay, they're like, oh, like you
Speaker 4: know asl like age sex, and then you're kind of
Speaker 4: like I'm in it with you. I'm like doing a thing.
Speaker 4: But it's like so overwhelmingly like like sensory attack now
Speaker 4: where it's like you can be in voice channels, you
Speaker 4: can be like you're gooning with other people in voice channels,
Speaker 4: you're sending them every two seconds like some porn that's
Speaker 4: like their triggers. Like you're like breaking each other's brains
Speaker 4: in the discord goon you know, as you're just masturbating
Speaker 4: for like you know, on adderall for hours and hours
Speaker 4: and hours. So you have like like in marathon endurance
Speaker 4: for it and like and then and to me, I'm
Speaker 4: just like this explains so much, Like like I kind
Speaker 4: of like when I see people, I'm like and I'm like,
Speaker 4: why are they doing this thing? It's like, well, they're
Speaker 4: probably coming off of like twenty two hours of gooning,
Speaker 4: like I also would be making.
Speaker 1: I never know where you never know what people are
Speaker 1: going through. I'm so glad you brought this up. I
Speaker 1: learned about discord like jerk off groups recently, yeah, and
Speaker 1: I have it. Luckily I'm technically untalented, so I haven't
Speaker 1: found my way in. Yeah, but I was like, well,
Speaker 1: I've got to check that out.
Speaker 4: There is a level of tech to do it that
Speaker 4: is like that is like like I wanted to. I
Speaker 4: wanted to see it, And I'm like, you have to
Speaker 4: really be invested. But I feel like once you're invested,
Speaker 4: like it seems that the payoffs are hot. It's like
Speaker 4: it's like once you're in, you're like I'm set, Like
Speaker 4: I don't need the real world anymore.
Speaker 1: It's great that people are getting weirder in a way
Speaker 1: that I am finding myself curious about. Like I am
Speaker 1: like I follow a guy on porn Twitter that like
Speaker 1: like puts his full id up and it's just like
Speaker 1: just to humiliate me. And I'm like wow, he puts
Speaker 1: his phone over. He's like just text me and tell
Speaker 1: me I'm pitiful, and I'm like this is weird.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I just don't think that like real life
Speaker 4: can can achieve that level of like like dopamine sensory humiliation.
Speaker 4: Like if it's like I I was weird, you know,
Speaker 4: like on the street and like some people are just
Speaker 4: like and like you know, a few people snickered and
Speaker 4: you're like I was mildly humiliated. But when you have
Speaker 4: like twenty thousand people on the internet damn doing that,
Speaker 4: it's like you're the sensory overload that is possible for
Speaker 4: this kind of thing. Now is is so fascinating, Like.
Speaker 1: Well and then that needs me over like becomes the
Speaker 1: point like I've seen so many things of like porn
Speaker 1: is my life, Like I will, yeah, like quit your
Speaker 1: family and watch porn and like it's like crazy where
Speaker 1: it's like the like religion of porn becomes like the
Speaker 1: new thing.
Speaker 4: And I need a respectable writer who's not part of
Speaker 4: this to like get I want like Barbara King Solver
Speaker 4: just like doing you know this is the culture of gooning.
Speaker 4: I've uncovered it.
Speaker 1: That's so genius. You know, we started this horny and
Speaker 1: we're ending in horn I really appreciate that.
Speaker 4: I want them to like uncover the big goon.
Speaker 1: Big the big goon has not been exposed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know what's actually sick is like so
Speaker 2: many people are hypocrites and are so sex positive in
Speaker 2: their writing and then their adages and whatever, and they
Speaker 2: would absolutely cower the night of the Big Goon. They
Speaker 2: would not have the bravery to look at the.
Speaker 4: It's like strap on their pith.
Speaker 3: Damn.
Speaker 1: Barbara King Solver, if you're listening, this is yours.
Speaker 2: This is your moment.
Speaker 4: It's great that you got the pulitzer, but can you
Speaker 4: can you face the big good? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 1: Wow, Well that was amazing.
Speaker 2: I think we should we do our final any final
Speaker 2: thoughts on on prolonged divorce as a straight.
Speaker 4: No, I just just just rip the band off, like
Speaker 4: I think. I'll just say, I think it should be
Speaker 4: a four month process.
Speaker 2: Oh wow.
Speaker 4: I think if we're going to do an arbitrary thing,
Speaker 4: I think from proposing your divorce to filing it, four
Speaker 4: months is reasonable. That's real and you can still be
Speaker 4: it's a gay marriage if you're if you've been doing
Speaker 4: it in four months, anything after that, you're in a
Speaker 4: straight marriage.
Speaker 2: Wow. Wow, yeah you heard of your greatest marriage, Brandelina. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they're still going. Oh I think they're still divorcing. Am
Speaker 2: I wrong?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like it's been years. I had no idea,
Speaker 2: and they are actually, if you think about it, sort
Speaker 2: of the archetypal straight American couple. Yeah, of this generation.
Speaker 4: I think like you don't have to like have everything
Speaker 4: settled after four months, Like if you're like them and
Speaker 4: you own like a rose wine thing, it's.
Speaker 2: Like who gets the rose?
Speaker 4: It's that is like that's difficult to me.
Speaker 1: That's different paperwork, and that's the lawyers.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know you have to like settle that
Speaker 4: we are gonna split up the Rose ey yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: They finalized December. We're getting word that they finalized December
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four.
Speaker 3: We have once again spread misinformation and December twenty twenty four,
Speaker 3: huh huh still pretty recent.
Speaker 2: You know, the rose is not bad. Oh I tried
Speaker 2: it recently. Anyway, Let's do our final segment.
Speaker 1: Okay, Tori. Our final segment is called shout outs. In
Speaker 1: this segment, we pay homage to the grand straight tradition
Speaker 1: of the radio shout out, shouting out to anything that
Speaker 1: we are enjoying, people, places, things, ideas. Imagine it twousand
Speaker 1: and one. You're at TRL shouting out to your squad
Speaker 1: back home, and we have to think.
Speaker 2: We have to think about it on the spot, which
Speaker 2: is why I have my thinking base.
Speaker 1: On here's okay, I have one, I have one?
Speaker 5: Okay, what's up freaks, loss and perverts around the globe.
Speaker 5: I want to give a shout out to listening to
Speaker 5: different music in different locations and having it hit different.
Speaker 1: I you know, this is sort of a basic concept,
Speaker 1: but sometimes, you know, as I've been living in Los Angeles,
Speaker 1: some music I'm like, seeing it makes sense more, and
Speaker 1: some music I've been like, I know this is good,
Speaker 1: and I know that I like this, but it's not
Speaker 1: hitting as hard as I want. Today I was walking
Speaker 1: through New York City and I was taking the subway,
Speaker 1: and I said, it's time to put on Okay, Lou
Speaker 1: and guess what. It was hitting harder than it's hit
Speaker 1: ever before in my whole life. I already liked it,
Speaker 1: but it's time I was like, damn the subways, like
Speaker 1: I'm underwater, like I was in heaven. I felt cool.
Speaker 1: I felt like, you know, this used to be my life,
Speaker 1: and you know, I one day hope to be cool again.
Speaker 1: But that is neither here nor there. But it is
Speaker 1: on the subway listening to Okay Lou, New York City,
Speaker 1: I Love you xoxo Sam whoo wait.
Speaker 2: My version of this so my dad's favorite musical artist
Speaker 2: when I was growing up with Shade. Now, Shade famously
Speaker 2: is like sexy music, and I think I will finally
Speaker 2: be liberated when I can recontextualize Shade as something sexy
Speaker 2: rather than something that reminds me of my father.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I find myself like and I can't
Speaker 1: like I I it's you'll get there. Yeah, you just
Speaker 1: need new context.
Speaker 2: I need, I need, I need smoking, I need, honestly discordgooning,
Speaker 2: but for shaphones.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've I'm finding myself listening to him constantly in
Speaker 1: LA because I'm like, well this is makes sense, that.
Speaker 4: Does make sense and now that yeah, it's like st sunny.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And today I was like should I put on
Speaker 1: a hem? And I was like, why not? It's cool?
Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 2: Okay, what's up, fashionist does? I want to give a
Speaker 2: shout out to the brand Marrow, the shoe brand Marrow.
Speaker 2: It is so difficult right now to shop for shoes
Speaker 2: because of the sort of constant TikTok semi ironic reappropriation
Speaker 2: of every floating signifier that constantly exists. It is impossible
Speaker 2: to know whether something you are wearing signifies that you
Speaker 2: are basic, that you are young, that you are old,
Speaker 2: that you're all trying to be young, that you are
Speaker 2: trying to be hype beastie. And there is something about
Speaker 2: Maryl brand shoes that almost transcends that. I think it
Speaker 2: has been appropriated and reappropriated so many times that you
Speaker 2: can they can basically be whatever you want them to be,
Speaker 2: and you sort of can get away with wearing them
Speaker 2: and they just like accommodate you the rest of your style.
Speaker 2: And so I am this is the Meryl pledge. I
Speaker 2: am buying a pair of Marraals in the next calendar month,
Speaker 2: and that's gonna be my new look. It's gonna be
Speaker 2: my Kamala blazer is I'm gonna wear Marrels and I
Speaker 2: just want to think them for everything. They've contributed to
Speaker 2: both straight, queer, gay all cultures because they have something
Speaker 2: really wearing the Lilia was wearing them last night and
Speaker 2: so shout out to Meryl. I don't know if they
Speaker 2: are an ethical company, but I will do my research
Speaker 2: after this. Yeah, that's my beautiful Tori. Whenever you're ready,
Speaker 2: I want to shout out to.
Speaker 4: Nautical decorations. Yes, I was in a what I went
Speaker 4: with a bunch of gay people to a restaurant that
Speaker 4: was I was. I was staring at it the whole time,
Speaker 4: was like, what is this restaurant? Why does it look
Speaker 4: this way? Like I couldn't name it because I was
Speaker 4: with gay people, so it didn't occur to me that
Speaker 4: I could be in a nautical restaurant. Like they were
Speaker 4: throwing off what the restaurant was. And then finally I
Speaker 4: went to the to the bathroom by myself, and I
Speaker 4: was in the bathroom and there was like rope trim
Speaker 4: on like a like everything was navy blue and white,
Speaker 4: you know, And I was like, oh, maybe's chic. I
Speaker 4: don't know. And then and then I don't know, cheic
Speaker 4: is oftentimes anyway, So I was like it was like,
Speaker 4: because this maybe it's kind of frenchy, you know, like
Speaker 4: somebody that could be so yeah, I was, but it
Speaker 4: was in the bathroom and like it was like there's
Speaker 4: rope trim picture of a sailboat, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 4: I was like, I was like, probably in the basketball
Speaker 4: I was like, it's a yacht club, you know, like alone.
Speaker 4: But I was like I realized, like that's what this
Speaker 4: theme was, and and and the whole lunch was just reaching.
Speaker 4: It was changed. I was like this, this is the
Speaker 4: feel of this lunch that I thought was like in
Speaker 4: a in a like a cool New York restaurant. No,
Speaker 4: I've just been dining at the yacht club and everything
Speaker 4: was different. And it was because I became aware of
Speaker 4: the nautical motif.
Speaker 1: Wow, that is so powerful.
Speaker 2: Do you think nautical?
Speaker 1: I love nauticle.
Speaker 2: Will come back, like yes, like in the way that
Speaker 2: people fetishize cowboy work, where all that stuff like will
Speaker 2: we get to a sailor moment?
Speaker 1: Nautical is incoming. I also think we all have this
Speaker 1: thing where our parents' bathrooms had like a seashore theme
Speaker 1: and it's like hack. But now we're like almost at
Speaker 1: a place where we're like, well, I'm my parents' age,
Speaker 1: like maybe I want to find my way into the sea.
Speaker 4: It was a time for some shells around the mirror.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's something where you're like, well, I'll
Speaker 1: do it, but it'll be like a STEMI ironic and
Speaker 1: I'll find a way to play with it.
Speaker 4: The thing is it immediately becomes like that, that just
Speaker 4: becomes like you're a thing like I like in Florida.
Speaker 4: When I'm in Florida, i am like excited to see
Speaker 4: like manate seemed.
Speaker 2: Totally like not in a sort of alligator stuff.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, I'm in Maine.
Speaker 1: When I see those damn booies everywhere, I'm like perfect, You're.
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, I'm in Maine.
Speaker 3: I'm like, in fact, yeah, all I want is a
Speaker 3: damn main bowie.
Speaker 2: Toy. This has been an absolute delight.
Speaker 4: It's been a pleasure for me so much for doing it.
Speaker 2: When for doing it, please purchase the book stag Dance
Speaker 2: on Bookshop dot Organ not Amazon. That's right, I said it. Wow,
Speaker 2: makes political statement. Making a political statement or Amazon, you
Speaker 2: know or whatever. I have no moral backbook. And if
Speaker 2: you're in the UK, you know, look look where you're
Speaker 2: going to be.
Speaker 4: You're going to be it's gonna be like eight stops
Speaker 4: in the UK and then including West Kirby. I don't
Speaker 4: know that that is the probably the most obscure, but
Speaker 4: apparently it's a nice place outside of Liverpool. Doing an
Speaker 4: event in Brighton with Sean Fay who probably your listeners
Speaker 4: know of Shaan Fay. And then I'm doing also Sydney
Speaker 4: Literary Festival, Auckland Literary Festival and Melbourne let Literary Festival.
Speaker 2: So I'm doing We actually do have a lot of
Speaker 2: Australian listeners, that's true. Australians love old Gate comedy.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Actually, well this is It's perfect that because I've been
Speaker 4: sort of remiss and promoting those things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, if you're an Australian listener, please please
Speaker 2: look that up.
Speaker 4: I'll be there.
Speaker 2: Amazing.
Speaker 1: Wow. Well bye podcast and.
Speaker 2: Now want more? Subscribe to our Patreon for two extra
Speaker 2: episodes a month, discord access and more by heading to
Speaker 2: patreon dot com. Slash Stradio Lab.
Speaker 1: And for all our visual earners, free full length video
Speaker 1: episodes are available on our.
Speaker 2: YouTube now get back to work.
Speaker 1: Stradia Lab is a production by Will Ferrell's Big Money
Speaker 1: Players Network and iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2: Created and hosted by George Severs and Sam Taggart.
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Will Ferrell, Han Soni and Olivia Aguilar.
Speaker 1: Co produced by Bei Wang, edited and engineered by Adam Avalos.
Speaker 2: Artwork by Michael Failes and Matt Grugg.
Speaker 1: Theme music by Ben Kling