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Speaker 1: Quell radio dot com. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We

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Speaker 1: are kidnap all right? Please plain to me what's going on?

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Speaker 1: Are you? Oh? My god? Please, I'm okay, the show,

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Speaker 1: We're okay. Do you know how long she'd think? I

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Speaker 1: don't please? We just got up and here, Oh my god. Please.

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Speaker 1: Twenty two years after the little pageant princess was found

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Speaker 1: strangled to death in her parents' basement, the murder of

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Speaker 1: John Bennet Ramsey remains one of America's greatest unsolved mysteries.

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Speaker 1: But now we're learning yet another man claims that he

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Speaker 1: committed the gruesome crime. In a series of letters exclusively

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Speaker 1: obtained by Daily Mail TV, convicted pedophile Gary Oliva says

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Speaker 1: he killed the six year old andis this terrifying phone call?

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Speaker 1: He's screaming, I heard a little girl. It was shocked.

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Speaker 1: It was pure shock. Michael Vale recalls the early morning

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Speaker 1: phone call he received from his former high school pal

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Speaker 1: Gary Oliva. It was December twenty six, nineteen ninety six.

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Speaker 1: At the time, Oliva lived blocks from the Ramsey home

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Speaker 1: in Boulder, Colorado. That was the same day Patsy Ramsey

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Speaker 1: would make her own frantic call to nine one one,

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Speaker 1: notifying authorities that her precious little girl was missing. About

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Speaker 1: eight hours later, John Bennet's body was discovered inside a

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Speaker 1: locked room in the basement at six years old, John

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Speaker 1: Bennet had already become a padget princess, and the quest

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Speaker 1: of finder killer garnered international attention to the killer has

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Speaker 1: been our position now two decades later, Vale says he

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Speaker 1: has a series of disturbing letters from convicted pedophial Gary

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Speaker 1: Oliva that he believes may solve the mystery of John

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Speaker 1: Benay's death once and for all. That was our friend

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Speaker 1: Jesse Palmer at Daily Mail reporting it. In the background,

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Speaker 1: you could hear John Benay singing, and snippets of her

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Speaker 1: mother or Patsy Ramsey's desperate nine one one call or

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Speaker 1: was it? Questions still lingering as to who killed the

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Speaker 1: pageant princess, the beautiful little girl, John Benet. But it's

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Speaker 1: all hit the headlines again when a convicted pedophile already

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Speaker 1: behind bars, Gary Oliva, said I did it. But do

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Speaker 1: I believe him? With me right now? An all star panel.

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Speaker 1: Troy Slayton, renowned LA defense lawyer, director of the Cold

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Speaker 1: Case Research Institute and no stranger to a crime Saint.

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, Bobby Brown, Colorado private investigator, intimately familiar with

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Speaker 1: this case, medical AMiner and author of homicide investigation field guide.

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Speaker 1: We're very fortunate to have doctor Michelle Duprie with us

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Speaker 1: today and joining me right now. Crime online investigative reporter,

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Speaker 1: author of Beautiful Life, The CSI behind Casey Anthony Trial.

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Speaker 1: Robin Wilansky. Robin, who is Gary Oliva? And why now

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Speaker 1: does he jump up and say, oh, yeah, I killed

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Speaker 1: John Benet Nancy. Gary Oliva was a guy who lived

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Speaker 1: in the area and police had been looking at him.

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Speaker 1: He was a guy who was obsessed with little John

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Speaker 1: Benet and how beautiful she was and in her little

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Speaker 1: outfits with her teased hair. I mean, this was a

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Speaker 1: four or five year old girl who looked like, hey, hey, hey, hey,

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Speaker 1: hey hey, what's from a fluffy outfits and teased hair. Well,

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Speaker 1: apparently he was very into her look and she really

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Speaker 1: looked like an adult. And I think that that's why

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Speaker 1: we've been talking about this case for so many years.

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Speaker 1: When those little videos came out of her and her

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Speaker 1: little pageant costumes, she looked so mature. Well, anyway, this

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Speaker 1: guy had hundreds of pictures of her, hundreds of pictures

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Speaker 1: of her, you know what, as weird as it may be, weird,

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Speaker 1: but true to Bobby Brown, Colorado private investigator. They're sadly

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Speaker 1: are probably thousands of creepy, lonely guys across the country

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Speaker 1: that have hundreds of pictures of John bin A Ramsey.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry to have to report that, but he's I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, they're a dime a dozen pedophiles with obsessions

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Speaker 1: on particular little girls, I mean, and John benay Is

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Speaker 1: turned out to be fodder for pedophiles all across the country.

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Speaker 1: How many millions of times do you think Bobby Brown

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Speaker 1: videos of her dancing and singing at the pageants completely

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Speaker 1: innocently have been exchanged. That's their stock in trade. That's

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Speaker 1: what they live for us to get another video of

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Speaker 1: a little girl. That's that's totally true. And it's been

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Speaker 1: shown a god doing those tens and tens of thousands

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Speaker 1: of times. You asked, who believes I believe that? Uh

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Speaker 1: that you know, and and and when we started, it's

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Speaker 1: like it almost sounded like that Gary e'll leevis just

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Speaker 1: now had this idea, Well, I'm going to confess to

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Speaker 1: John Benett. He has confessed two three different times over

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Speaker 1: the years, and uh, he actually became a suspect. I

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Speaker 1: was working at that time. I was working on a

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Speaker 1: private team with Lusement, Charlie he Peas and I and

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Speaker 1: one morning Luke Smith asked me to meet with him

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Speaker 1: at a restaurant that we always met at. I did

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Speaker 1: was in September of two thousand and seven, and at

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Speaker 1: that time lou explained to me, this is when the

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Speaker 1: name Gary Oliva became, you know, part of my Spark

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Speaker 1: money answers with me as a very well known Colorado

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Speaker 1: private investigator, Bobby Brown, very familiar with the John Banay investigation.

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Speaker 1: So if this guy Gary Oliva raises his hand and

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Speaker 1: said I killed John Benay, he might as well get

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Speaker 1: in line. Listen. I've contact to the Ramsey family, but

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Speaker 1: especially before Patricia passed away, and I can paid to

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Speaker 1: her many things, among them that I am so very

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Speaker 1: sorry for what happened to Jean Manet. And it's very

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Speaker 1: important for me that everyone knows that I love for

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Speaker 1: very much and that her death was unintentional and it

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Speaker 1: was an accident. And um I made several efforts to

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Speaker 1: communicate with Patricia before she passed away, and I my

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Speaker 1: understanding that that she did read my letters and she

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Speaker 1: was aware of me before she passed away. What happened

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Speaker 1: in the basement. Um, that's it would take several hours

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Speaker 1: to describe it, to describe that if you could be brief. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there's no way that I could be brief about There's

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Speaker 1: no way I can remember about it. But it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's a very involved um series of apens would require

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Speaker 1: a lot of time, and I, uh, I can't. I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't want to to say something briefly about it because

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Speaker 1: if you would not. First of all, it's very painful

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Speaker 1: for me to talk about the only thing that I

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Speaker 1: can say is, it's not what it seems to be everyway.

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Speaker 1: It's not people, not at all what it seems an

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Speaker 1: absolutely not. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute.

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Speaker 1: You've been on every kind of crime scene known to man.

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Speaker 1: In fact, you claim that's where we first met. I

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Speaker 1: claim we met in court. But okay, I guess two

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Speaker 1: honest people can disagree. So Cheryl McCollum, please did you

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Speaker 1: hear him say, oh, this can't be quick, because my

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Speaker 1: story of how I accidentally killed John Benny Ramsey needs

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Speaker 1: a lot of time, translation, a lot of attention on

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Speaker 1: me in front of the microphone, in front of the camera,

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Speaker 1: with everybody clicking their their photos. What a load of BS? Now, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: you are a crime scene investigator. Extraordinary, Now that's a legal, technical,

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Speaker 1: legal term, load of b asked or I need to

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Speaker 1: explain that to you. Let me tell you it ain't Latin. No,

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Speaker 1: it is a load of BS. And I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: I'm going to explain why it's a load of BS.

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Speaker 1: I have been on thousands of crime scenes and anthy

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Speaker 1: and when something is an accident, that scene can absolutely

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Speaker 1: be staged. But I have not seen where a stranger

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Speaker 1: makes an accident looks worse. So here's what he wants

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Speaker 1: us to believe. Johnny slipped and hit her head and died.

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Speaker 1: So he doesn't admit to killing her. He said she flipped.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't talk about the strangulation. He doesn't talk about

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Speaker 1: the sexual assault. He doesn't talk about whether or not

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Speaker 1: there was a taser involved with this child. He doesn't

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Speaker 1: talk about anything but an accident. It was an accident

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Speaker 1: breaking into the house. It wasn't an accident, you know,

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Speaker 1: taking her from her bedroom on the third floor and

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Speaker 1: finding a lost room in a basement and a house

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Speaker 1: she's supposedly never been in. How in the world did

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Speaker 1: this man write a three page ransom note? Asked her.

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Speaker 1: She accidentally dies, so he ain't hurry to get out

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Speaker 1: of that house, which is also croup, but he stays

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Speaker 1: there and writes this ransom note. And he just happens

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Speaker 1: to be ether to write exactly like her mama, to

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Speaker 1: the point that FBI can't rule the mama out, which

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Speaker 1: is another reason I do not believe Gary Oliva, and

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Speaker 1: I didn't believe John Mark Carr, also known as Captain

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Speaker 1: Underpants at the time. I can't recall why, but I

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Speaker 1: think both of them are lying and capitalizing on the

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Speaker 1: death of a little girl. John Vane completely changed me

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Speaker 1: and removed all evil from me. Just one look at

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Speaker 1: her beautiful face, her glowing, beautiful skin, and her divine

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Speaker 1: God body. I lit her slip and her head bashed

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Speaker 1: in half, and I watched her die. It was an accident.

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Speaker 1: I believe in my heart of hearts that these are

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Speaker 1: confessional letters. He told me that if he had the chance,

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Speaker 1: he would have eaten John Benet Oliva also made these

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Speaker 1: chilling drawings of the kindergartener. The fifty four year old

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Speaker 1: has a history of sexually abusing miners. He's currently serving

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Speaker 1: a ten year sentence in Colorado for possessing child pornography.

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Speaker 1: Oliva isn't the first to confess to killing little John Bennet.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and six, John Mark Carr confessed to

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Speaker 1: her murder Die accidentally, Carr, who was cleared of all charges.

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Speaker 1: As for Oliva, although he has confessed to the crime,

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Speaker 1: investigators are not convinced he did it. Oliva is eligible

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Speaker 1: for parole in twenty twenty, but Vale, a writer and

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Speaker 1: publicist who lives in California, says his former friend needs

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Speaker 1: to stay behind bars. The day he walks free is

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Speaker 1: the day that I will be terrified for every child

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Speaker 1: within hundreds of miles of him, because he is not

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Speaker 1: safe to be out of society. The police department in Boulder,

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Speaker 1: Colorado has come under heavy criticism for not bringing John

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Speaker 1: Benet's killer to justice, even admitting that crime scene evidence

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Speaker 1: may have been mishandled. You're hearing our friend Jesse Palmer

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Speaker 1: at Delhi Mail TV and part of this guy, Gary

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Speaker 1: Oliva's letter being read about this little girl's god body

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Speaker 1: and her beauty and her purity, later saying he wanted

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Speaker 1: to eat her. Okay, twenty twenty, well, that's certainly a

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Speaker 1: year we can all look forward to the year that

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Speaker 1: this guy will make parole. Troice Layton joining me along

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Speaker 1: with Cheryl McCollum, Bobby Brown, doctor Michelle Dupree, and Robin Willinsky. Troy,

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Speaker 1: you're the famous LA defense attorney. Why with this guy,

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Speaker 1: Gary Eliva festering behind bars make this confession because he

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Speaker 1: won attention, Because just like the other people who have

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Speaker 1: confessed to this crime but proved to not be the murderer,

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Speaker 1: done it for exactly what you said, they want, they're

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Speaker 1: five minutes of fame. Now, thank goodness, there's an illegal

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Speaker 1: principle just because someone confesses to a crime doesn't allow

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Speaker 1: them to be prosecuted unless there's other evidence that they

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Speaker 1: committed the crime. And thank goodness for that rule. You're right,

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Speaker 1: Troice Layton, You're absolutely right. The law is throughout every jurisdiction,

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Speaker 1: and this has been taken all the way to the

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Speaker 1: US Supreme Court, and that is why it's a uniform

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Speaker 1: and every jurisdiction. You know, violent crimes are usually prosecuted

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Speaker 1: by the states, and we've got fifty of them. You'd

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Speaker 1: think there'd be fifty different sets of rules. There are

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Speaker 1: not they may differ in some ways, but many state opinions, decisions,

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Speaker 1: and criminal cod have been taken all the way to

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Speaker 1: the US Supreme Court. The Supremes make a decision and

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Speaker 1: then all the other states fall into line with that.

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Speaker 1: Now he's right, Royce Layton is right. You cannot prosecute

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Speaker 1: someone based on their confession alone. There has to be

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Speaker 1: corroborating evidence, Thank the Lord. So, Robin Willinski, let me

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Speaker 1: ask you this, what do we know about the physical

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Speaker 1: evidence opposing or supporting this freak Gary Oliva's confession he

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Speaker 1: killed John Benet? Well, Nancy, there is not a DNA link.

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Speaker 1: From what I understand, there was DNA in John Benet's

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Speaker 1: underwear to this day that has never been identified. Every year,

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Speaker 1: to my understanding, the FBI crime lab in Virginia runs

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Speaker 1: that sample over and over and over again more than

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Speaker 1: twenty years to this day. Nancy ever has been identified.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting, and you know this because you have kids.

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Speaker 1: If you go to a store or a Target of

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Speaker 1: Walmart wherever, and you go to buy underwear that's just

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Speaker 1: hanging on a little hanger, that's not in a plastic wrap,

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Speaker 1: and someone if she had on, for example, new underpants,

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Speaker 1: and someone would have touched that in a store, or

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Speaker 1: the lady who man or someone who's checking you out

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Speaker 1: at the counter touches that. They still don't know where

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Speaker 1: that DNA is. And Gary Oliva does not match that

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Speaker 1: DNA sample. Well, I mean, Cheryl Wia call them. You

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Speaker 1: and I both are raising a boy and a girl.

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Speaker 1: A million times. I've been the one the mom and

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Speaker 1: I hate that mom sitting in the floor of Target

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Speaker 1: or wherever, and I take the underwear out of the pack.

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Speaker 1: I know it's also neatly package, and I take it out.

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Speaker 1: I try not to destroy the package, and I hold

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Speaker 1: it up and to Lucy's shot in horror, I hold

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Speaker 1: it up to her as she's standing there in her clothes,

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Speaker 1: going mom to see, okay, is this gonna fit her?

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Speaker 1: So I've handled it. You know, I may have on lotion,

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Speaker 1: I may have just washed my hands. Whatever the minute

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Speaker 1: amount of DNA on John Benet's underwear, What if anything

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Speaker 1: does that mean? Except one thing, we know it's not

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Speaker 1: Gary Oliva's. What else do we know about that also

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Speaker 1: doesn't match anybody in her family. So again, it could

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Speaker 1: very well come from the person that was examining the

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Speaker 1: underwear before it left the factory. Somebody could have sneezed,

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Speaker 1: They could have been sweating, who knows, We don't know.

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Speaker 1: That's the whole point. But it doesn't match this guy

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Speaker 1: and the other thing that falls short with his story, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: He wants us to believe that he stopped and fed

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Speaker 1: the child pineapple. He wants us to believe that he's

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Speaker 1: spent all this time looking for a legal pad and

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Speaker 1: looking for a pen and writing his three page ransom

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Speaker 1: note and just walking all over the house instead of

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Speaker 1: getting the hell out of there because he just killed

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Speaker 1: the child. None of this makes sense. He just happened

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Speaker 1: to know John's bonus of one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: He just happened to know about this lost room. None

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Speaker 1: of this makes any sense. And here's the biggest thing

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Speaker 1: for me. In the autopsy, they are very clear to

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Speaker 1: point out that John Banet had chronic vaginal injuries that

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Speaker 1: to me does not suggest a stranger at all. But

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Speaker 1: does it suggest And again let me point out that

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Speaker 1: the brother, who I have never once suspected based on

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Speaker 1: statistics alone, but especially looking at him compared to John Banat,

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Speaker 1: I think she could crack him in two with one

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Speaker 1: hand behind her back. The brother has actually sued when

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Speaker 1: it was suggested he was guilty, and you know, if

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Speaker 1: doing that it would have basically allowed him to be

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Speaker 1: put on the stand, and he was not afraid of that.

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Speaker 1: So I've never believed Burke did it, and I don't

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Speaker 1: believe the dad did it because John Benet, to my understanding,

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Speaker 1: still had a hymen means an adult male had never

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Speaker 1: had relations with her. Gary Eliva now confessing I did it,

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Speaker 1: is the case now solved in the murder of John Benet,

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Speaker 1: or is it simply more murky? I and Nancy Grace here,

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Speaker 1: have you ever googled yourself, your neighbors, somebody at work,

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Speaker 1: a crush. Fifty seven percent of Americans admit to keeping

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Speaker 1: an eye on their own online reputation. Forty six admit

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Speaker 1: to using the Internet to look up somebody from their past.

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Speaker 1: But Google and Facebook the tip of the iceberg when

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Speaker 1: it comes to finding personal information. There's an innovative new

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Speaker 1: website called truth Finder. It's now revealing the full scoop

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Speaker 1: on millions of Americans. Truthfinder can search through hundreds of

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Speaker 1: millions of public records in a matter of minutes. Truth

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Speaker 1: Finder members can literally begin searching in seconds some data

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Speaker 1: like criminal traffic, arrest records. Before you bring someone new

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Speaker 1: into your life and around the people you care for

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Speaker 1: your children, consider using Truthfinder. What you find may astound you.

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Speaker 1: Go to truthfinder dot com forward slash Nancy right away

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00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:24,640
Speaker 1: to start searching truthfinder dot com forward slash Nancy truthfinder

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Speaker 1: dot com forward slash Nancy. Find the truth crime stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Boulder Police say Gary Olivia is still

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Speaker 1: a suspect and the John Vannie Ramsey murderer. He has

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Speaker 1: not been cleared, but is well known to officers and

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Speaker 1: city leaders. Tell me if new information comes to light

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Speaker 1: through his most recent arrest, they will certainly look into it.

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Speaker 1: Nearly two decades after John Vaney Ramsey was killed Insider

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Speaker 1: Families Boulder Home, a suspect and the infamous Christmas Night

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Speaker 1: murder is behind bars, accused of downloading child pornography. We

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Speaker 1: haven't ruled him in or out in connection with the

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Speaker 1: Ramsey case. Boulder Police, the same agency investigating the Ramsey case,

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Speaker 1: arrested fifty two year old Gary Oliva after getting a

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Speaker 1: cyber tip that looked like somebody was getting in pornography

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Speaker 1: materials related to children to an address the investigators were

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Speaker 1: able to link to mister Oliva. Court documents show he

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Speaker 1: downloaded twenty two separate sexually explicit images. All of the

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Speaker 1: photos showed children under ten years of age, who certainly

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Speaker 1: understand the interests in mister Oliva, both in connection with

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Speaker 1: the new charges and his possible connection in the past.

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Speaker 1: Oliva wasn't one of the early suspects in the Ramsey case,

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Speaker 1: but the convicted sex offender may have been close to

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Speaker 1: the Ramsey home on the night of the murder and

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Speaker 1: when he was arrested on other charges back in two thousand,

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Speaker 1: police found a photo of Ramsey in his possession and

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Speaker 1: he did admit to having an obsession with a young

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Speaker 1: beauty queen. Feel like we ought to look at all

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Speaker 1: people as being possible suspects that have been possible suspects before.

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Speaker 1: For now, Boulder Police say it's focused on the most

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Speaker 1: recent charges, but that could change if additional information about

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Speaker 1: him becomes available subsequent to his arrest. In this case,

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Speaker 1: we'll certainly look at it now. Eliva is charged with

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Speaker 1: three felonies for sexual exploitation of a child. You are

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Speaker 1: hearing our friend at ABC seven. They're in Denver. That's

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Speaker 1: Jennifer Kovaleski talking about the twenty sixteen arrest of Gary

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Speaker 1: Eliva on child porn. Now he jumps up and says,

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Speaker 1: I kill John Banet. But Bobby Brown, Colorado Private Investigator

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Speaker 1: is correct, he said it before. But you know what,

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Speaker 1: as I always love to say in court when the

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Speaker 1: defense jumps up and over and ever, I'm like, you

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Speaker 1: can say that, oh all you want to. You can

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Speaker 1: say a hundred times, two hundred times, a thousand times.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't make it true. Just because he keeps saying

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Speaker 1: I did it, I did it doesn't make it true.

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Speaker 1: Joining me right now, renown medical examiner and author of

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Speaker 1: Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Now there's some good reading right there,

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Speaker 1: Homicide Investigation Field Guide. You know, Jackie and Allan, Jackie

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Speaker 1: Howard and Allen Duke always roll their four eyeballs when

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Speaker 1: I talk about one of my favorite books ever, Method

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Speaker 1: and Assessment of Homicide and Suicide. I mean, I can't

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Speaker 1: tell you how many times I read that. And of

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Speaker 1: course the Gun Lover's Bible, so I would familiarize myself

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Speaker 1: with ballistics. So you know, Homicide Investigation Field Guide I'm

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Speaker 1: very impressed, doctor Michel Dupree, But that's not my issue today.

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Speaker 1: My issue is Gary Oliva, because a lot of people

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Speaker 1: want to believe, yes, he did it and put the

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Speaker 1: case to bed. But I don't take it very lightly

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Speaker 1: when somebody makes a false confession, because you know what

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Speaker 1: that does. That ruins a potential future prosecution of the

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Speaker 1: real killer because as giving no offense choice Layton slimy

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Speaker 1: defense attorneys a defense on a silver platter, say I

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Speaker 1: catch the real killer. And then here comes TROYE Slate

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Speaker 1: bouncing into court and his two thousand dollars Armani suit

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Speaker 1: and his fancy Italian loafers. He comes up and he goes,

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Speaker 1: oh really, because John Mark Carr said he did it

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Speaker 1: and Gary Olivia said he did it, it doesn't help,

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Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Dupree. It doesn't help at all when some

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Speaker 1: nut job like Oliva claims he did it, and hey,

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Speaker 1: what if he did? So, Michelle Dupree, Doctor Dupree, how

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Speaker 1: do I prove he did or didn't do it based

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Speaker 1: on the crime scene in the DNA fancy? That's an

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Speaker 1: excellent question. We go with a physical evidence, I mean,

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Speaker 1: physical evidence does not lie, and your guests are far

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Speaker 1: have mentioned many instances and where it just doesn't add up.

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Speaker 1: The DNA doesn't match, there's no other physical evidence at

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Speaker 1: the crime scene to make a confession. We all know

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Speaker 1: that some people just want the spotlight, and so that's

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Speaker 1: where we'd have to go on the defense of this.

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Speaker 1: Go with the physical evidence and you will never go wrong.

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Speaker 1: You know what. I used to argue something like that

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Speaker 1: to juries all the time, not as eloquently as you

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Speaker 1: just did. And you didn't even train three years to

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Speaker 1: speak in front of a jury. Very well. Put, you

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Speaker 1: have to follow the hard forensics if you've got it,

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Speaker 1: And here, Cheryl McCollum, we have a glaring lack of

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Speaker 1: forensics pointing to Oliva. Cheryl McCollum, if you had one

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Speaker 1: minute in front of the jury, what would you say

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Speaker 1: to sum up the fact did Gary Oliva murder little

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Speaker 1: beauty Queen John Benet. He has not given us one

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Speaker 1: thing about that crime scene we didn't already know or

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Speaker 1: we didn't publish. He's a liar and he's out for attention, period.

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Speaker 1: What about forensic Cheryl, There is no zero that leads

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Speaker 1: to him. There's no DNA, he's got no clothing with

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Speaker 1: her blood on it. He's got no hair from her, nothing,

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Speaker 1: nothing leads us to him. And Anthia is another thing.

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Speaker 1: No blame, get it. The whole surrounding of that house,

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Speaker 1: the whole perimeter. There's no footprints coming or going from

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Speaker 1: that house. What did he do? H a bag out

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Speaker 1: of there? Come on, he didn't do it. He does

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Speaker 1: it right like her mama. He didn't spend hours in

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Speaker 1: that house after he quote accidentally killed her and found

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Speaker 1: a paint brush and a piece of rope and did

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Speaker 1: a makeshift you know, way to strangle that base rite. Yeah. So,

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Speaker 1: Troy Slayton, you're the renowned defense attorney. If you were

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Speaker 1: defending a future defendant, what would you say? Because I

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Speaker 1: know you can spin a yarn. No offense, Troy, and

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Speaker 1: I'm sure an untaken But what would you what would

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Speaker 1: you say? It sounds like to say he can do it.

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Speaker 1: If you say you're you aren't defending Jackie Howard five

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Speaker 1: years from now, who's now charged with murdering John Benett.

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Speaker 1: How would you try and pin this on a leva?

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Speaker 1: Why would certainly point to his confession? I would say,

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Speaker 1: let's believe a person when they make a statement against

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Speaker 1: penal interest. Here's another legal theory for the audience. When

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Speaker 1: somebody says something that goes so far against what an

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Speaker 1: average person would do and tends to inculpate themselves, tends

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Speaker 1: to make themselves look guilty, that type of statement is

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Speaker 1: more trustworthy here. A normal person doesn't commit I mean,

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Speaker 1: doesn't admit to committing a crime that they didn't do.

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Speaker 1: A normal person doesn't. Obviously Oliva's is not a normal person.

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Speaker 1: And if I was called upon to defend Oliva's in

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Speaker 1: some sort of future prosecution, well you have my witness

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Speaker 1: list already all set for me too. Bobby Brown, who

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Speaker 1: is a veteran in law enforcement Colorado private investigator, Bobby Brown, again,

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00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. You've heard Cheryl McCollum

425
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: explying why she doesn't think Oliva is response or committed

426
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: the crime, but you disagree. Explain. I want everybody to

427
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: know that I am not saying by any means that

428
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: Gary Oliva is, even though he confessed again that he

429
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: is the person that is responsible for the death of

430
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 1: John Benet. But I just wanted to say a couple

431
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 1: of things. Is that after John Benet's death, Gary Olivia

432
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: did leave the state and where he sexually molested a

433
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: seven year old little girl. And he was in Boulder

434
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: the night that John Benet was killed. He was supposedly

435
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: staying at a church near by their house, and the

436
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: next morning he called his friend. He tells his friend

437
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: that he had done something really bad that a little girl.

438
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: One thing that I will say that when I called

439
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: up when he was arrested in two thousand and sixteen

440
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: with the pornography charges I did, I got all of

441
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: the bonding information, which I have printed out right in

442
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: front of me, and it clearly says that he was

443
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: arrested on April tenth. However, he was booked into the

444
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: Boulder County Jail on June seventeenth, and he had a

445
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: bond set for twenty five thousand dollars. When I asked

446
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: the jail where was he between April tenth and June seventeenth,

447
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: and the exact quote from the deputy or person that

448
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: I spoke to the jail said that it was the

449
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: sixty four thousand dollars question of the day. The world

450
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: was shocked to hear about the motive of the six

451
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: year old beauty pageant princess jumping a Ramsey. Since this

452
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: horrible day, her death has remained as one of the

453
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: biggest mysteries of all time, which has set in motion

454
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: at many conspiracy theories, some crazy but others more grounded

455
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: in reality. Today, Lauren Forces are on the brig of

456
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: closing the case after Gary Oliver, a fifty four year

457
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: old convicted pedophile who is currently serving time in prison,

458
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: confessed to her murder. The Daily Mail obtained letters written

459
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: by Gary Oliver. The report claimed the fifty four year

460
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: old is taking full responsibility for the crime, saying he

461
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: killed her by accident. I never loved anyone like it

462
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: did John Bernee, and yet I let her slipped, her

463
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: head bashed and I watched her die. He allegedly wrote,

464
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: it was an accident. Please believe me. She was not

465
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,479
Speaker 1: like other kids. John Bernee completely changed me and removed

466
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: all evil from me. Oliver stated, just one look at

467
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: her beautiful face, her beautiful skin and divine God body.

468
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: I realized I was wrong to kill other kids. Yet

469
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: by accident she died and it was my fault. The

470
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: sensational letters was sent to the music publicist to Michael Vale,

471
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: a former mate of Oliver's who has quartedly suspected his

472
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: involvement in the crime for many years. The shock admission

473
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: is one of the biggest breakthroughs in the now infamous case,

474
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: which has had detective stumped for years. My suspicion began

475
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: when Gary called me late one night on December twenty six,

476
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six. He was sobbing and said, I heard

477
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: a little girl. The fifty five year old told the publication,

478
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: you're hearing our friends at Daily Mail regarding Gary Oliva

479
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 1: announcing he murdered John Benet. I don't know that I

480
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: would call his confession a breakthrough. I think I call

481
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: it more of a speedbop. To Bobby Brown, Colorado private investigator,

482
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: how did you first learn about Eliva? At the breakfast

483
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: meeting that Lou Smith and I had? And Lou Smith

484
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: was the one that brought up that there was a suspect,

485
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: Gary Oliva, and Lou was very serious about it. I was,

486
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: and obviously that's how I I put a lot of

487
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: work to this. And I want to say that, you know,

488
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: when people ask real quick, why would anybody confess to this?

489
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: You know, why would you leave? But consessted this, and

490
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,719
Speaker 1: you know that's a great question, because somebody that's been

491
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: around with this for a long time. The sex offenders

492
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: and especially pedophiles, they don't do really well in prison.

493
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: So you know, if you're in prison and all of

494
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: a sudden you're you're saying, here's this gigantic case that's

495
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: been out there for all these decades, and then you're

496
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: saying that you are the one that did it, you know,

497
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: that's not a very smart move by any meaning. Well,

498
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: it could be. To Robin Willinski, Crime Online dot Com

499
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: investigative reporter and author of Beautiful Life See Aside behind

500
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: Casey Anthony Trial on Amazon, Robin, you've studied this very

501
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: very carefully. We all covered at John Manai's death and

502
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: the investigation intensely at the time. What do you make

503
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: of it? What about his confession is consistent or inconsistent

504
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: with the facts, the forensic facts as we know them. Well,

505
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 1: I'll tell you an aunty. I was actually out there

506
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: in another lifetime in two thousand and six working for

507
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: another network when they bought brought John Mark Carr back

508
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,479
Speaker 1: to the United States, And I will tell you that

509
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: I knew of Aliva, but I do not believe that

510
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: the DNA there's no DNA that puts him inside that house.

511
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: For me personally, my big takeaway after all these years,

512
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: the only thing that connects John Mark Carr, the other

513
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: guy who said that he killed John Beday, the only

514
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: thing in my mind that connects him to the case.

515
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: You know, there's no receipts, there's no DNA. That ransom

516
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: note that Patsy finds on the bottom of the staircase

517
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: is signed s b TC, and no one has ever

518
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,719
Speaker 1: been able to explain what those letters stand for. Well,

519
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: in my old job at a different network, we had

520
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: a producer that was sniffing around in this little town

521
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: in Alabama where John Mark Carr is from. And in

522
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: one of his yearbooks he signs it SBTC shall be

523
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: the Conqueror. And to me, that's an interesting takeaway to

524
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: this case. Also, there was a window in the basement

525
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: that there's some glass that was pushed in. The only

526
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: person skinny enough, physically small enough to have gotten into

527
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: that window from the outside is not Aliva. He's a

528
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: much bigger guy. The only person who would fit through

529
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: that window would be someone like John Mark Carr, who

530
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,439
Speaker 1: is that sick you know, Roby Mallinski. When I would

531
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: try cases. In closing argument, I carried with me a

532
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: huge jar of water, and at the bottom, Cheryl, don't grown,

533
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 1: because you remember this, there was dirt at the bottom.

534
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: And at the beginning of my closing statement. Sometimes, if

535
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,399
Speaker 1: it fit, i would take the big jar and I'd

536
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: shake it in front of the jury to make sure

537
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: they saw me do it. I'd set it down on

538
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 1: council table and then I'd start my closing argument, which

539
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: would at the least take one hour. By the time

540
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 1: the hour was up, I would pick up the jar,

541
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: which now all the soil was at the bottom, and

542
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 1: I'd hold it up and say that defense is trying

543
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 1: to muddy the water. I've explained to you the facts

544
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: and see now is crystal clear you are muddying the water.

545
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: Robin Wilinsky, I'm just gonna tell you right now because

546
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: and you have me. You're like a little snake charmer.

547
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: Oh SBTC and he could fit through the window. I'm

548
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: calling b yes again, Troy S Laton, LA defense lawyer.

549
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: Isn't it true John Mark Carr was in another state

550
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: when John Benet was killed. That's when all the evidence

551
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: shows and it's it's unbelievable to why can't you just

552
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: say yes like a normal person. Why why do you

553
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: have to leave a little doubtling? Really well, that's what

554
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 1: the evidence shows, as if to say, bet Man I wasn't.

555
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 1: Maybe he was with Harry Potter. Maybe he was with

556
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: Harry Potter and they transported what's the word they use

557
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 1: in Harry Potter. I've got I've read them so many times,

558
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: and they appeared in John Manay's basement. He wasn't out

559
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 1: of the state. Troy Slayton, he may have been out

560
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 1: of the state. That's what the evidence appears to show, Nancy,

561
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 1: But I wasn't with them. You weren't with them, so

562
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: we can't say for sure. And it's this exact type

563
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 1: of confession from Oliva that is, as you've said, a

564
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: goldmine for the defense in any future prosecution of this

565
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: horrific tragedy. To doctor Michelle Duprey, medical examiner and author

566
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: Homicide Investigation Field Guide, do you see anything on the

567
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: scene of the murder that indicates Oliva is the killer? Nancy,

568
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: not that I can tell. I mean, there is no

569
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: physical evidence, and that's always what we have to go for.

570
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: Everything that your other guest have said is absolutely true.

571
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: There's no way to tie him to this. We depend

572
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: on something called low cards exchange, where a perpetrator comes in,

573
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: brings something from outside into the crime scene and then

574
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,439
Speaker 1: take something away from the crime scene outside. We don't

575
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: have that here too, Cheryl McCollum, Cold Case Research Institute Director,

576
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: CSI expert. Cheryl, you know, give me your best shot

577
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:08,359
Speaker 1: as to why he did do it. I know that's

578
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 1: gonna be tough. Zero there's nothing, and I'm gonna blow

579
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: your mind. Cadn't you just use your imagination for Pete's sake?

580
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: Defense attorneys to do it all the time. I do,

581
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: And in order to do that, I would have to

582
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: make something up, which is exactly what he's done it.

583
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: But I'm going to blow your mind. He didn't even confess,

584
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: he said, John Beney slipt and she hit her head.

585
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 1: We don't even have a confessience. He's a liar, is

586
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: that true? Bobby Brown Colorado a PI Is there nowhere

587
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:43,399
Speaker 1: he says I did it? Not from ideal and there

588
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: is one to Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case

589
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: Research Institute. I know you couldn't stretch your imagination to

590
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:56,399
Speaker 1: come up with an argument that Eliva's guilty. But if

591
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 1: you were arguing to the jury right now, why would

592
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: you say he's not guilty of John Benet's murder. His

593
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: handwriting does not match the ransom note. He writes an

594
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 1: all caps the ransom note does not in the ransom note.

595
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: It says things like at ashe and she's gonna be beheaded,

596
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: and all of these things. His confessions, it's not it's

597
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 1: not a confession number one and number two. He doesn't

598
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: say what he hit her in the head with. It

599
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 1: doesn't say you know why he did it. He doesn't

600
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:31,399
Speaker 1: say he's molested her or anything. He doesn't say how

601
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: he got in her out of the house. He doesn't

602
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: say how he knew where the locked bedroom was or

603
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 1: the room. He doesn't say where the pineapple came from,

604
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: or why he took time to feed this child. He

605
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: doesn't say where he found a legal pad or the inkpen,

606
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: or why he would go from the third floors to

607
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: the basement, and spends all of this time in this

608
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: house writing a three page note looking for these instruments

609
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 1: to do that, all the while there's a dead six

610
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: year on the basement that he didn't mean to really

611
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,439
Speaker 1: kill in the first place. None, none of it makes

612
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 1: any sense. And Nancy, he's a liar, and he's an opportunist.

613
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: And he and his you know, elementary school friend. Maybe

614
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: they want to write a book. I don't know what

615
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 1: they're doing. But it's not true. There's nothing authentic. Again,

616
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: he has not told us one thing that is not

617
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: public knowledge about that thing. Explain whether or not she

618
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: was paved. Tell me, tell me what the marks are

619
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: on her neck, Tell me how the scratch has got

620
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: on her back. Tell me why the paintbrush. Why you

621
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 1: would make this really crude garrett to strangle her with?

622
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 1: And why do you keep talking about the head in dream?

623
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,919
Speaker 1: You don't mention his trangulation at all. Just patiki eye. There.

624
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 1: We know she was strangled. That's the official rule. Explain

625
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: it to me. Why would you make a little drawing

626
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: in the palm of her hand? Why would you go

627
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 1: back up the stairs and get her favorite toy? He

628
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 1: can't explain any of that because he didn't do it.

629
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 1: I think that says it all, Kama says. Tells me

630
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 1: Gary Olivia is just seeking attention, a book deal, a

631
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: movie deal, or who knows what, maybe even protective custody.

632
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 1: We'll see Nancy Gray's crime story, signing off goodbye friend,