1 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 2 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policymakers, and performers, to 3 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: hear their stories. What inspires their creations, what decisions change 4 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: their careers, what relationships influenced their work. A recent New 5 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: Yorker magazine article told the story of Chanelle Jackson and 6 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: Alabama jury found Jackson guilty of murder old Twelve jurors 7 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: voted against sending him to the electric chair, but Alabama 8 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: is one of three states where a judge can override 9 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: the jury's decision, and the judge, who was up for 10 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: re election that year, did just that. Chanel Jackson was 11 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: sentenced to death. Eventually, Jackson acquired a new lawyer, Brian Stephenson, 12 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: who is my guest today. Evenson is founder and director 13 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: of the Equal Justice Initiative, and Alabama based nonprofit that 14 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: fights for retrials, death sentence reversals, and exonerations. Stevenson is 15 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: a fierce opponent of judicial override and works against the 16 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: penalty system. He says is defined by error, bias, and unreliability. 17 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: Our sentences for virtually every offense are way way out 18 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: of control. It's not just the death penalty in life 19 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: without parole. It's ten years for simple possession of marijuana. 20 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: It's you know, fifteen years for writing a bad check. 21 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: It's all of that stuff. And I absolutely believe that 22 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: people saw what I saw. They could not be comfortable, 23 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: they could not be siglent, they could not continue doing 24 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: what we're doing without having to do something. I don't 25 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: think there's been a time in our American history where 26 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: there are more innocent people in jails and prisons than 27 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: right now. You know, we have this tremendous prison increase. 28 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: Three people in nineteen seventy two, two point three million today. 29 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: There's no way to avoid the fact that whatever the 30 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: proportion of innocent people that are being wrongly convicted, and 31 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,519 Speaker 1: it's high because of this increase in the number of 32 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: people being sent to prison, We've never had as many 33 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: innocent people in jails and prisons than we have today. 34 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: And people read about innocent people getting out for the 35 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: first time. The Innocence Project and DNA is something the 36 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: important work all of those folks, but it's a fraction 37 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: of the innocence population. They're dealing with, just that small, 38 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: very small group of people whose crimes allow for biological 39 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: evidence that can be tested which will exonerate them. That's 40 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: a two of the innocent population, and it will haunt you. 41 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 1: I've been representing a man named Anthony ray Hinton. So 42 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: this is a case of a man who in was 43 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: accused of two different murders. There were three fast food 44 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 1: robberies in Birmingham and the police couldn't figure out who 45 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: did it. They collected the bullets. They thought that the 46 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: bullets might have been fired from the same weapon. And 47 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: the third crime, the witness didn't die. The victim didn't die, 48 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 1: and he went through a photo lineup and he picked 49 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: out this guy, Anthony bray Hinton, who had no prior 50 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,839 Speaker 1: history of violent crimes. So they go to his mother's house. 51 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: They find an old gun and they test the gun. 52 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: They said, well, this is the gun that produced all 53 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: these bullets, and based on that, they charge him with 54 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: all of the murders. He goes to trial. He says, 55 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: wait a minute, I have a lock solid alibi. I 56 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 1: was fifteen miles away in a warehouse at the time 57 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: of this third crime, and there's twenty people who can 58 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: confirm that he was there. But now they're locked in 59 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 1: to him. So they're not going to kind of be 60 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: dissuaded by that. They put on their experts who say, yeah, 61 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: this is the gun that fired all of these bullets. 62 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: Because he's poor, he didn't have any money for a 63 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: good weapons expert, so his lawyer had to get a 64 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: civil engineer who never testified in this kind of case, 65 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: who was blind in one eye, who couldn't actually turn 66 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: on the machine, who has literally laughed off the stin convicted, 67 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: sentenced to death, he's been on death row for twenty 68 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: eight years, fifteen years ago. We get involved, we get 69 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: the best experts in the country. They all say, no 70 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: way in the world this gun produced these ros. Well, 71 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: the state says, we're not going to back down, and 72 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: they says, well, we don't have an answer to what 73 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: these experts are saying, but we've got a conviction in 74 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: the death sentence and we're just going to run with that, 75 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: and every cours more expedient for them, and it's more 76 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: effective and politically because if they have to say, you 77 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: know what, we made a mistake, then people start to 78 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: ask questions. In the article in the Channel Jackson case, 79 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: you read about how all these judges who are running 80 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: for office absolutely and we're getting contributions from prosecutors who 81 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: are trying cases before everybody toughens up about the law 82 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: that they almost act in a different ways. Absolutely, we 83 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: have elected judges. They run as partisan and partisan elections. 84 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: You run as a Democrat or a Republican and you 85 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 1: campaign on your toughness. And so to actually acknowledge that 86 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: there's a problem with the death punty suggests that the 87 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: death penalty isn't a reliable It creates a political vulnerability. 88 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: We've been litigating for fifteen years. So just last year February, 89 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: we got the United States Supreme Court to overturn the conviction. 90 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: And I'm now kind of each day trying to get 91 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: this man out of prison. But it wakes me up 92 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: at it just so burdened me. And the thing I 93 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: just went to see this client last week, Mr twenty 94 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 1: eight years you know, and this he's a remarkable person. 95 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: But when when also knowing that by admitting they were wrong, 96 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: how much they would win? Yeah, absolutely, as you wind 97 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: up having the purity and the dignity of the office 98 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: elevated by them. You know, sometimes we make mistakes. I'm 99 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: really sorry I've made that argument. Let's give this guy 100 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: a couple of million bucks to live his life in 101 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: the remaining years of his life, and at this point 102 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: we would just take freedom. But I've made that argument 103 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: to every attorney general since I said, look, if you said, 104 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: did you almost gain any ground with any of them? 105 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: Were some of them close? They were all the same. 106 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: They all acted at the first conversation like, oh, yeah, 107 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 1: that's a good point. But when they thought about it 108 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: more and they got into that political context, they all retreated. 109 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: But I've said to each of them, if you say, 110 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: we even evaluated this case and we've concluded that this 111 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: one is innocent, you gain credibility. Your ability to kind 112 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: of do the stuff is actually enhanced. But they can't 113 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 1: even do that, and so yes, that will haunt you. 114 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: Is there's something about the d NA no pun intended 115 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: of the prosecutors mistake? Well, I do. I think throughout 116 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: our country we've been acculturated into believing that you never 117 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: back down, you never never absolutely, and I think actually 118 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: as a country that's our biggest problem. We have become 119 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: unwilling to acknowledge that we make mistakes. What we do 120 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: is tell people around the world how great we are. 121 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: That's right, and that arrogance actually sets us up for 122 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: the kind of conflicts that then follows. You know, this 123 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: whole work we're doing on race and poverty is actually 124 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 1: rooted at trying to persuade America that actually we need 125 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: to just own up to all of the terrible things 126 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: we've done and have a conversation about it. Be truthful 127 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: to have an almost South African reconciliation. Absolutely, that's what 128 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: we're trying to do. Actually, we've been doing this stuff 129 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: on slavery. We're about to issue this report on lynching, 130 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: which dominated from the end of reconstruction into World War Two. 131 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: My whole view is that, you know, if you come 132 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: to the South, we like to romanticize the mid nineteenth century, 133 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 1: put up all these Confederate mon mento memorials, And the 134 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: truth of it is, in America and we were in 135 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: a society with slavery, we became a slave society. We 136 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: actually created a myth and ideology that allowed slavery to 137 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: be defensible. These people of color are different, they're not 138 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: as smart, they don't work as hard, blah blah blah, 139 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: and the Thirteenth Amendment didn't do anything to address that myth. 140 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: And in that respect, slavery didn't end, it evolved, it 141 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: turned into something else, and we had decades of terrorism. 142 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: And these older people come up to me because they 143 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: get angry when people start talking about nine eleven is 144 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: the first time we're dealing with terrorism, because they feel 145 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: implicated by that. They said, we grew up with terrorism, 146 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: We had to worry about being lynched and bombed and threatened, 147 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: and that legacy terrorism, if it's against someone else, that's 148 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: exactly right, and that legacy we're doing in other countries 149 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,239 Speaker 1: is in terrible all right, exactly, and we haven't actually 150 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: recognized our capacity to actually engage in terrorism. And I 151 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: want to be very careful. I've learned to be hyper 152 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: careful about these things because if this goes out over 153 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: the year, I don't want people to the street. I'm 154 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: not saying every act of the U. S Military and 155 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: the soldier is an act of terrorist. I'm just saying 156 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: there are things that resemble terrorists. And I never blamed 157 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: the soldiers that the government has ordered done well, it's 158 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: just our attention to where the lines are. If we're 159 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: thinking about where the lines are and recognizing that we 160 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: can go pass those lines, if we're not paying attention 161 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: to those lines. That's all we're trying to talk about here. 162 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: And there's no question that lynchings were terrorism. Public spectacle 163 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: lynchings in the nineteen hundreds, in the early part of 164 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: the twentieth century were terrorism, and they sent thousands millions 165 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: of African Americans into communities like New York and Boston 166 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: and Chicago and Detroit, in Oakland and Los Angeles, not 167 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: as people looking for opportunities, but as exiles and refugees 168 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 1: from terror. And that legacy of being terrorized by oh 169 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: I absolutely do shape the way these communities emerged. And 170 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: we never kind of talked about it. You couldn't get 171 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: Congress to actually pass an anti lynching law because the 172 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: Suntherners were saying, no, we will not back down from this. 173 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: And even during the Civil rights movement, and this is 174 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: part of where I get in trouble because I'm a 175 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: little provoked by how all we want to do when 176 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: we talk about the nineteen forty and fifties and sixties 177 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: is celebrate the civil rights movement, to celebrate the progress 178 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: that we made and free it. If everybody gets to celebrate, 179 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: there are no qualifying questions that you have to add 180 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: answer before you get to participate, and we've reduced it 181 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: almost to this kind of three day event where Rosa 182 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: Parks gives up her seat on the first day. Dr 183 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: King leads a march on Washington on the second day, 184 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: and then we pass all these laws on the third day. 185 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: And it provokes me because we're ignoring the decades of 186 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: damage that we did to everybody by humiliating people of 187 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: color every day of their life. I grew up in 188 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: a community where I saw my parents humiliated every day 189 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: of their life. The damage we did in southern Delaware 190 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: on the Eastern Shore, where the movie theaters were segregated, 191 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: where the schools were second, I started my what did 192 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: you see, Well, I started my education in a colored school. 193 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: I would drive past the Milton Public School and see 194 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: all the white kids going to this big, beautiful brick building, 195 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: and then we would go into this shack and I 196 00:09:58,080 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: would go to the beach. Where are the best parts 197 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: of the beach. We couldn't go to because they were 198 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: racially segregated. I didn't like movies when I was a kid, 199 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 1: caring in the sixties. Yeah, I didn't like movies because 200 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: you had to sit in the back. It was such 201 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: a humiliating experience. And then after integration with the schools, 202 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: I'd see my friends, but I couldn't be with them 203 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: in some of these other spaces until there was complete desegregation, 204 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: and it hurts. I used to get mad at my 205 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: parents for not taking me to town because we lived 206 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: out in the country there's nothing to do, but they 207 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: didn't want me to go with them in town because 208 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: they didn't want me to see them humiliated by any 209 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: white person that they encountered. And it accumulates these injuries, 210 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: this burden, this problem, and we haven't talked about it. 211 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 1: And even for white people, a generation of whom were 212 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: taught that they are better than other people because of 213 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: their skin color, we haven't helped them recover from that 214 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: lie because we just tried to play it off. And 215 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 1: we needed truth and reconciliation after nine and we didn't 216 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: do it. And because of that, we've now set ourselves 217 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: up for the conflicts and controversies that were still experiencing, 218 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: where the police are the face of this racial order, 219 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: and this presumption of guilt haunts us and follows all 220 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: these young people called. The Bureau of Justice is now 221 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 1: reporting that one in three black male babies born in 222 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: the twenty one century is expected to go to jail 223 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: or prison. That wasn't during the twentieth century, wasn't during 224 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century. It became it's only getting worse, and 225 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: it's well, I think it's because we've never confronted this 226 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: presumption of guilt, which is a result well, I think 227 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: it's a result of this racial narrative that has existed 228 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: for so long that we're not actually proactively trying to 229 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: do that. So there were many people who, first of all, 230 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: I'm gonna use some phrases I'm not really comfortable with, 231 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: because when you hear people say let's continue the conversation, 232 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: let's be part of the it makes me want to 233 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: vomit because I'm sick of convert We've had quite a 234 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: bit too much conversation action. But my point is to 235 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: to borrow those words, you know, in the conversation, if 236 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 1: you will. A lot of people assuming there were saying, 237 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: let's let's take race out of this now. If you 238 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: if you notice something like my criticisms of Obama have 239 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: nothing to do with race. But but you come roaring 240 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: in with with the with the racial question, you can't. 241 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: It is a defining feature of American life. It has 242 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: so kind of compromised. But you tag, but do you 243 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: think it's changed? And I will tell you what, tell 244 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: you why. To me, America was always the big table. 245 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: There was bounty at the table, and there were jobs. 246 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: And this is a metaphor for the jobs and the 247 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: money and the housing and the lifestyle and the cars 248 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: and the vacations. And over the last fifty years, there's 249 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: less seats at the table. And now there's still more 250 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: seats at this table, and it's still a great table. 251 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 1: That the trick became in order to keep the critical 252 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,839 Speaker 1: massive American satisfied. We had to make sure that a 253 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: lot of people didn't even get near the table. And 254 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 1: I thinks about economics, it's not about race. Well, I 255 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: believe that racism has has metastasized into really what is 256 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: an economic question? We were going to use color as 257 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: an excuse to keep you off the playing field and 258 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: keep you from competing because there's not enough at the 259 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: seats at the table anymore. Well, I don't think we 260 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: can separate race and economics. I mean the slavery about 261 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: the economic viability of this new generational people would come 262 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,439 Speaker 1: to this great Land and how to make it profitable. 263 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: And we got people enslaved here, not because we thought 264 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 1: we were doing something proactive to help Africans, but because 265 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 1: we had these economic needs, We had these labor needs. 266 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: And the same is true in post reconstruction. You know, 267 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: Convict Leasing and Jim Crow and all of these institutions 268 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: were about helping people stay profitable, helping them stay secure. 269 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: And even the nineties and fifties and sixties it had 270 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: these social features, but there were real economic tensions there. 271 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 1: So I think for people of color and poor people, 272 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 1: they were always in another room too. When we talk 273 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 1: about that table, we let some people of color get 274 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: in there enough to take this exactly, but it's always 275 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: been this still in their absolutely. To get back to 276 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: this point I'm making, and that is that I believe 277 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: that there's two hierarchies here. One is people in power politically, 278 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: and then there's the uh, the power of the masses 279 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: of people who I mean, to me, my daughter, my 280 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: eldest daughter, has grown up since nineteen in a wash 281 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 1: intolerance and cultural equality. These are kids who they know 282 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: the name of Kanye West's baby, and they don't know 283 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: who their senator is, and a celebration of all things 284 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: black in culture, fashion, They worship Beyonce. They are completely 285 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: color blind black, white, music, sports, culture, what have you. 286 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: They worship and they don't and they don't see that, 287 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: and yet still more black people are going to prison. 288 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: Well that's where's that disconnect. Well, I think it's because 289 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: it's become culturally complicated, but I don't think the fundamentals 290 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: have really changed. I go to a gym in Alabama 291 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: where I see these young guys firefighters, police officers that 292 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: I used to go to. Different I mean, it's a 293 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: different time. I don't go to that gym anymore. But 294 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: these young white guys who are listening to rap artists, 295 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: they're listening to Kanye, they're listening to Beyonce, but they 296 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: have Confederate American tattoos. And when they enforce when they 297 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: work as police officers and they see young black men, 298 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: they presume they're guilty, they presume they dangerous, they presume 299 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: that they're up to something, and they target them and 300 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: they've victimized them. At the same time that they are 301 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: persuaded that they couldn't possibly be racially biased because they 302 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: like Kanye and they like Beyonce. And that cultural narrative 303 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: has always existed, right, people would go to the movies 304 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: in the first half of the century and watch black 305 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: performers acting roles that comforted them and feel like that 306 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: somehow made them beyond race. But in truth, they bought 307 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: into the same narrative of racial difference. They bought into 308 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: the same idea that these uh, these barriers that kind 309 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: of are are really condemning and condemned and and harp, 310 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: you know, and just really disrupting the lodge of the poor, 311 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: and people of color didn't have any implications for them. 312 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: They didn't have to apologize for anything. And I think 313 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: that reality is still there. And you know, you don't 314 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: have to be an overt rate, you don't have to 315 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: be bad, you can have all of these other things. 316 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: You can even have good black friends and all this stuff. 317 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: I'll tell your story. I was in a courtroom in 318 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: the Midwest, just not not too long ago. It was 319 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: it was actually a juvenile case, and was the first 320 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: time I'd gone there. Was representing a young kid, a 321 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: young white kid, asking when you say you're representing someone, 322 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: how do they get you? Yeah, how does someone now? 323 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: Ryan Stevenson twenty years ago was different. You can bring 324 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: them up on the phone. How did they get you 325 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: to show we we get hundreds of requests wedding well, 326 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: we get hundreds of requests each week. We only represent 327 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: a small portion of the people. But when we have 328 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: a campaign, like when we were doing the juvenile work, 329 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: trying to get the court to end life without parole 330 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: sentences for kids, we were taking those cases and I 331 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: took I want to stay active. I like being an 332 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: active lawyer. So I took, you know, a small set 333 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: of those and I would go to courts and went 334 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: to South Dakota. I went to these states, Iowa, Indiana 335 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: to do these hearings. I always have cases that I'm 336 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: working on directly personally, even though there are much smaller 337 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: subset than the people who request us. But I was 338 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: in this courtroom in the Midwest, just getting ready for 339 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: the hearing, had my suit on, had my shirt on, 340 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: had my time, sitting at defense counsel's table. The judge 341 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: walks in and he sees me sitting at defense counsel's table, 342 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: followed by the prosecutor, and he looks over at me 343 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 1: and he says, hey, hey, hey, you get out of here. 344 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: I don't want any defendant sitting in my courtroom without 345 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: their lawyers, you go back out there in the hallway 346 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: and wait until your lawyer gets here. And I stood 347 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: up and I said, oh, I'm sorry, your honor, I 348 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: didn't introduce myself. My name is Brian Stevenson. I am 349 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: the lawyer. And the judge starts laughing, and the prosecutor 350 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: starts laughing, and I make myself laugh too, because I 351 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: don't want to disadvantage my client. I'm laughing because I'm 352 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 1: horrif it's horrifying. Right. Then the client comes in again, 353 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: this young white kid. We do the hearing, but afterward, 354 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: I'm sitting in my car and I thought to myself, 355 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: what is it about this judge that when he sees 356 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: a middle age black man in a suit sitting at 357 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 1: defense counsel's table, he can't imagine that that's the lawyer. 358 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: And is that going to manifest? What what state was 359 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: that in? This was actually in Iowa. Judge wasn't a 360 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: bad guy. We actually had a good outcome, but it's 361 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: the way it was. The outcome. Well, we got the 362 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: client of reduced sense. He was one of the people 363 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: who didn't end up with life without parole. But it's 364 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: the way I ever mentioned again. Nope, nope, make your 365 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: hands for any kind of even implied apology. I don't 366 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: even think he worried about it. It was just to 367 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: even aware. No, it was just funny, you know. And 368 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: the truth of it is, though, when that judge is 369 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 1: imposing sentences on young definitive color, their race is shaping 370 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 1: his comfort level with putting them in prison forever. It's 371 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 1: impacting the way he thinks about their guilt and the 372 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,199 Speaker 1: propriety of these very harsh sentences. And he can go 373 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 1: home and go have dinner with some nice African American 374 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: woman or man, and he can listen to this music. 375 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: But that narrative has not. We have to do something 376 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: proactive to actually shield ourselves from acting on these biases 377 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: that have been going on for decades. You can bet 378 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: that Stevenson, who was currently a law professor at New 379 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: York University, is educating his students on this particular bias. 380 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: If you want to learn more about the prison system 381 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: in the United States, take a listen to my conversation 382 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: with Martin Horn, former New York City Commissioner of Correction 383 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: and Probation. He recommends big changes for our society. I 384 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: would legalize drugs across the board. You would really legalize 385 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: which draft all of them. You would legalize all dress. 386 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: I would sell it in the liquor stores, right, and 387 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: I would tax the hell out of it. Find Martin 388 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: Horn in the archives that here's the thing. Dot org. 389 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 390 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: My guest is Brian Stephenson, who has argued six cases 391 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 1: before the U. S. Supreme Court. In two thousand twelve, 392 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,239 Speaker 1: Stevenson gave a ted talk. He cited his grandmother as 393 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 1: a big influence. He told a story of how one day, 394 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: when he was nine, she took him aside and told 395 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: him he wasn't like the other grandkids. He was special. 396 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: She told him not to repeat their conversation and made 397 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: him vow never to drink beer. When he was fourteen, 398 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 1: his older brother offered him a beer, and Brian remembered 399 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 1: his promise beer. I said, no, I don't feel right 400 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:22,719 Speaker 1: about that. You'll go ahead, y'all go ahead, And then 401 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 1: my brother started staring at me. He said, what is 402 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: what's wrong with you? Have some beer? Then he looked 403 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,719 Speaker 1: at me real hard. He said, Oh, I hope you're 404 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: not still hung up on that conversation mama had with you. 405 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: I said, well, what are you talking about? He says, Oh, 406 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: Mama tells all the grandkids that they're special. Brian stuck 407 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: with his grandmother. He still has never had a single drink. 408 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: His TED talk has over two million views, and in 409 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: the week after he gave it, Ted and the attendees 410 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: of the talk pledged over one million dollars to Stevenson's organization, 411 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 1: the Equal Justice Initiative. As a kid growing up in 412 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: rural Delaware, Stevenson had no clue that any of this 413 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 1: awaited him. I don't even have an awareness of what's 414 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: possible for me. I'm just trying to get into school. 415 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: Now what. Well, my dad was working in a food factory. 416 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: You know. I had two siblings, an older brother thirteen 417 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: months older and a sister eleven months younger. You know, 418 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 1: we're just all crammed into this little space. I lived 419 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: in this really poor world section chickens and pigs. People 420 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 1: have outhouses. You know. We used to like using the 421 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 1: outhouse because we thought it was cool. You yeah, it's 422 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: it's at least adventure. You know, you got your water 423 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 1: from a well, and we were just trying to find 424 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 1: a way to kind of be seen, you know. So 425 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: I went and played was a musician, playing in the church. 426 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: Lots of time in church, because it was the one 427 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 1: place where you could say things, You could actually speak 428 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: in front of a group of people, you could be heard. 429 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,919 Speaker 1: There was this identity that you could have there that 430 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 1: you couldn't have in town, where you had to be 431 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: small and invisible. My grandmother was actually the daughter of 432 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: people who were enslave. Her parents were born in Virginia 433 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 1: in the eighteen forties. She was born in the eighteen eighties. 434 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: And because her father learned to read quietly silently at 435 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: the age of twelve and had to keep it a secret, 436 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: he talked about slavery all the time with her, and 437 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: she talked about it all the time with me, and 438 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: so there was this kind of dull thing, and she 439 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: kept saying, I need you to be smart. If you 440 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,479 Speaker 1: learn things, you can survive in ways that you can 441 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 1: survive if you don't learn things. And so I became 442 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: somebody interested in the world outside of my world because 443 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: my grandmother the daughter of slaves. Yeah it was a drink, Yeah, 444 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: that's right. That she has had a powerful influence on me. 445 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: But that was my kind of beginnings, and so we 446 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: desperately wanted to go to the public school. In fact, 447 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: my mom was this kind of person who she would 448 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: always answer any question you asked her. And if I said, Mom, 449 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 1: what's that bright star in the sky tonight, she said, well, 450 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 1: that's the star that's close to the moon. She wouldn't 451 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: know the name of the planet or anything, but you'd 452 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 1: always want you to feel like your questions have good answers. 453 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: The one time I remembered her not answering my questions 454 00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: when we would drive past the Milton Public School and 455 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: I'd take, what does the word public mean? And she 456 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: bite her lip because you didn't want me to know 457 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: how to be able to go in there, and that 458 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: reality was very hurt. No, she didn't, and when we 459 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 1: got to the school was all this kind of conflict. 460 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: But eventually things settled down, and I just was so 461 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 1: struck by the expectations of poor performance that I encountered 462 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: the guidans count said, oh, we're gonna send you to 463 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: votech We're gonna put you in the low section of 464 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: this grade. And I had been doing reading Dr. Seuss 465 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: My mom was one of these people bought books for 466 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: us even though we couldn't afford them. But I felt 467 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: like I was ready and I was provoked by it. 468 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: So I wanted to prove people, no, I can do. 469 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: So what happened, well, I did really well because I 470 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 1: was when you're in the when you're in the environment 471 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 1: you're in, when did you realize quote unquote you had it? Well, 472 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: you know eventually because my mom, Yeah, exactly, I got 473 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: put in the kind of the part of third and 474 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: fourth and fifth. Yeah, the advanced track. Was the only 475 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: black kid and then one or two of us that 476 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 1: it was challenging. Were you learning even then how to 477 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: be that? From that? Absolutely? I was what eight and 478 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: you're the other? But you know, when it was time 479 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: for you to stand up and recite your multiplication tables 480 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff, I wanted to be strong. 481 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: I wanted to come where you go to high school. 482 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: I went to the same public high school, Cape and 483 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: Lopin high school. In that point you nailed that, well, yeah, 484 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: because then you know, I felt like I had been 485 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: on top of it. So I was doing, Yeah, that's 486 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: where you go to college. So I went to Eastern College, 487 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: which was a small private school outside of Philadelphia, and 488 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: that was a very different world because it was just beautiful. 489 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: There were lakes and rivers and streams, and I was 490 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: studying philosophy. I'd go sit on these hillsides thinking all 491 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 1: these deep thoughs, but I was still doing the sports 492 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: and I wasn't drinking. And then that's right, and that's 493 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 1: how I end up. So then when I'm a senior, 494 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: somebody says, well, what are you going to do after 495 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,479 Speaker 1: you graduate? And that's when I realized, for the first time, 496 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: nobody's going to pay me to philosophize who graduate? And 497 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: I start yes. I started looking, and I realized, you 498 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 1: can't do graduate work in history of political science unless 499 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: you know something about history. You do I found law 500 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: school because the truth is, I went to Harvard Laws. 501 00:24:58,040 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 1: How did that happened? Well, because you didn't have to 502 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: know any thing to go to law school. That was 503 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 1: really my thinking, and that was the one thing would 504 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: appeal to me exactly, and so I ended up there, 505 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: but I hated it my first year. They were talking 506 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 1: about torts and contracts, and they weren't talking about race, 507 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: they weren't talking about poverty. They weren't even talking about 508 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: just this race thing. Well, this is a quality thing. 509 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: I felt like, Well, law means we can confront in 510 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: just racism at Harvard. Oh yeah, I mean it was 511 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: ae UM. Well, actually it was actually in Boston. I was, 512 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: you know, I'd never been up there, and I was 513 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: my first weekend there. I was walking in downtown Boston 514 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: and the truck drove by me and said, and the 515 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 1: guy said, he asked me a question, So, where's Roxbury. 516 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: I didn't understand what he was asking, And he said, 517 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: Where's Rocks? And I kept getting closer to him. When 518 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,679 Speaker 1: I got close to him, he said, go back to Roxbury, nigger. 519 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: That was first weekend I was there. What about on 520 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: the Harvard campus itself or in the classroom? You know, 521 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 1: I was fairly insulated in the classroom. I was just 522 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 1: trying to keep up. I didn't experience the kind of 523 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: racial tensions that that I'd seen as a young kid. 524 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: It wasn't that there were no people of color on 525 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 1: the faculty, had no black law professors, but it was 526 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: and it was difficult to have the conversations that I 527 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 1: was interested in having. So I left after my first 528 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: year and went to the School of Government, Kennedy School, 529 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: thinking well, this will be a more appropriate forum for 530 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: me to talk about poverty and race and inequality. And 531 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: it was worse. They were teaching us to maximize benefits 532 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: and minimize costs, and it didn't seem to matter whose 533 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: benefits got maximized and whose costs got minimized. And so 534 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: I left there, went back, and that's when I had 535 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: this experience of going to the Deep South and working 536 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: with this human rights organization providing legal services to people 537 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 1: on death row. Everything changed. Organization it was called went 538 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: right from Harvard to there, Yes, right from Harvard to Alabama. 539 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: And I actually went there as a law student in 540 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: the middle of my law school study to work for 541 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: a month with this organization as a project, an internship 542 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 1: with a Southern Center for Human Rights, and that's Southern 543 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: Center for you, that in Birmingham in Atlanta, Georgia. And 544 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: that's the first time I met somebody on death row. 545 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: And it's that experien that changed everything. When I met 546 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 1: this condemned person who was literally dying for legal help, 547 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: was going to be executed because he couldn't find a lawyer. 548 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: And to realize that even in my aignorance, even with 549 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 1: my limited skills, that I could have an impact on 550 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: the quality of his life and his chance of being 551 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: alive and avoiding wrongful execution. It radicalized everything. Then when 552 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: I got back to Harvard, it all mattered to me. 553 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: I needed to understand civil procedure, in criminal procedure, and 554 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: constitutional law. You couldn't keep me out of the law 555 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: library because I needed to know all the things I needed. Absolutely, 556 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 1: that's exactly right. And then everything changed and I left there, 557 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 1: and I went to that organization and worked there four 558 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 1: years before we started this project. Four years. Yeah, why 559 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: didn't you stay there? Because Alabama was really from to 560 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: Atlanta to Alabama. Most people the other well, Alabama was 561 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: in crisis. The people executed in America were executed in Alabama. 562 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: There was no public defender, there were no institutions providing 563 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: legal services. So I went over to start this promotion. Shame, 564 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 1: no shame at all. Now people were exploiting the absence 565 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: of these resources. And the goal was to start this 566 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: project and then go back to Atlanta. But we couldn't 567 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: find the people we needed to make the project succeed. 568 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: And one year turned into five, five, ten, ten, thirty, 569 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: and here I am. Now you're a grown man. You're 570 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: extremely successful, very admired, smart guy. But at the same time, 571 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: emotion it's a part of this work. I mean, you know, 572 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: how do you manage your feelings and how do you 573 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: manage your emotions doing this kind of work? It must 574 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: be tough. It is to what do you do? You know? 575 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 1: I hateful? It is painful. I think you you just 576 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: demand more, you keep fighting more. Um. You know, you 577 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: have to have different metrics for how you evaluate what 578 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: you're doing. You know. I I tell the story a lot. 579 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: It's it's it's a guy taught me this. I was 580 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: giving a talk in a church. Old guy in a 581 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: wheelchair comes in sitting in the back. He's staring at 582 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 1: me and older black man and I finished my talk. 583 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: All the kids seem fine, but this older black man 584 00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: is just staring at me the whole time I'm talking. 585 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: Hout is very angry look on his face. He's really 586 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: distracting me. When the kids go, this man comes up 587 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: to me and his wheelchair. He has a kid rolled 588 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: him up to me and he gets in my face 589 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: and he says, do you know what you're doing? And 590 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: I look at him. I don't know how to respond, 591 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: and I and he says it again. He says, do 592 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: you know what you're doing? And I stepped back and 593 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: I start mumbling something, and then he says to me, 594 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: he says, you're beating the drum for justice. And then 595 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: he says, you keep beating the drum for justice, and 596 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: it moved me. He grabbed me by my jacket, pulled 597 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: me into his chair, and he turned his head. He says, 598 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: let me show you something, young man, and he says, 599 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: you see this cut I have down here on the 600 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: bottom of my neck because I got that cut in 601 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: Green County, Alabama, nineteen three, trying to register people to vote. 602 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: Then he turned his head and he says, you see 603 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: this scar I got behind my ear. He said, I 604 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: got that scar doing Freedom summer Philadelphia, Mississippi. He turned 605 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: and said he said, you see this dark spot And 606 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: he said I got that bruise during the Children's Crusade 607 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: in Birmingham, Alabama. And then he looked at me. He says, 608 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: people think I'm some old man in a wheelchair covered 609 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: with cuts and bruises and scars. He said, I don't 610 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,719 Speaker 1: tell you something. He said, these aren't my cuts. These 611 00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: aren't my bruises, These aren't my scars, he said, these 612 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: are my medals of honor. And that is in some 613 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: ways the way we have to sometimes convert the pain 614 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: into a cause, victory into victory, and you begin to 615 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,719 Speaker 1: realize that if you can beat the drum for justice 616 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: with whatever you have in the face of that, there 617 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: is a strengthening that comes with it, and then you 618 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: feel empowered. You know, ultimately I'm not there yet. I 619 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: want to when I kind of go out say I 620 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: became a freeman because I resisted the things that I 621 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: think bind us and burden us and enslave us and 622 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: confine us and condemn us. And that's kind of a 623 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: kind of a quest that makes you feel like, you know, 624 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: I can keep doing this, and it's energizing in its 625 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: own way. I'm gonna ask you a question, and I'm 626 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: gonna give you my answer to want you to give 627 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: me yours first, or if you could pick not one 628 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: but among many, what would one be? What do you 629 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: think we need to be doing now in this country 630 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: or even in the state of Alabamas. What thing do 631 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: we need to do? I think we actually really need 632 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: to concertize the mistakes of the past and very visible way. 633 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: I think what's going on in Germany right now is 634 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: really instructive. You go to Germany and you are forced 635 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: to confront the legacy of the Holocaust. You can't spend 636 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: time there without being confronted with that. I'd like that 637 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: to happen in this country. We want to put up 638 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: markers and monuments at every lynching site in America. We 639 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: think the South should be cluttered with reminders of what 640 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: we did through enslavement. I think the civil rights narrative 641 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: needs to change. We need to start talking about all 642 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: the ways in which white people resisted this. What percentage 643 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: of the legislature in Alabama is black? A very small percentage, 644 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: and they have no power a percentage of the population, 645 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,959 Speaker 1: and no person of color can win any statewide office. 646 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: We won't. We know, No, it's so INTI well they do. 647 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: In fact, in fact, we just had one which was 648 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: a ballid initiative to remove the apartheid language that still 649 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: prohibits black and white kids from going to school together 650 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: in Alabama. State Constitution of Alabama still prohibits black and 651 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: white children from going to school together. They tried to 652 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: remove it into thousand and four and the majority people 653 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: said no, let's keep it in. They put it on 654 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: the ballot in and even bigger majority said let's keep 655 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: it in. And it speaks to the lack of shame. 656 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: You think that is because people don't feel in any 657 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: way implicated by that. They don't feel troubled by it, 658 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: they don't feel a shame of they don't feel like 659 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: that it does anything to cast upaul over who they are, 660 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: and that absence of shame condemns they want to maintain 661 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: something as ridiculous as let's leave language in our And 662 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: did anybody who was a leader, political leader, or activists 663 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: there who articulated in any way that defended why they 664 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: needed to have that in there. Yeah, they would say, 665 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: if we take this out, there might be a right 666 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: to equal education. And if there's a right to equal education, 667 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: then our texts might go up. There's always an economic 668 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: rationale to defend oppression, always both or both, you know. 669 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: But we can always come up with something that says, 670 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: if we do this, it's gonna be problematic for us. 671 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: Let me offer you my take, and I mean this 672 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: from the bottom of my heart. The one thing that 673 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: we need in this country right now is we need 674 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: for people like you to run for office, because with 675 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: real political power on the state level on the federal level, 676 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: I don't think it very much done comparatively. But you 677 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: should consider that if you don't mind my saying, no, 678 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: I don't, and I respect that perspective. I do, and 679 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: I do take it to heart because I know that 680 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: it's a product of a lot of careful thinking. And 681 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: I agree with you that the political process has been 682 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: so compromised by people who enter it for all these 683 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: other reasons. My big question is has it been compromised 684 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: in a way that even visionary people can't be vision 685 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: you are? I mean, that's the if I weren't practicing 686 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: an attorney with a forum that I can sometimes manage 687 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: to accomplish real change. I don't think there's any choice 688 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: that I'd have to try to figure out how to 689 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: do that. You don't have to answer this question, but 690 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: I'm assuming it's public record. What's the budget of the 691 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: organization down and now that it's this year is four 692 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:00,959 Speaker 1: million dollars, So it's four million bucks. And you have 693 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: to run around like a derve or shoal over the 694 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: country giving speeches amazing money yourself. That's right, and it's 695 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: a lot of it's on you. Oh yeah, we don't 696 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: have a development staff or anything like that. No, we 697 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: it's a different model. We've just said, you know, we're 698 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: not going to worry about it. We're gonna hopefully get 699 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: what we need and we're gonna keep doing what we 700 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 1: want to do. It's not the most uh, you know, 701 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: financially thoughtful way of doing at it, but we've been 702 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: able to do what we want to do. But yeah, 703 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: it's a challenge. But I look at the work that 704 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: we did on banning life without parole sentences for kids. 705 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: I couldn't have done that as a politician, doesn't matter 706 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: what office I was holding, I could not have done it. 707 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: Touch it couldn't even touch. The death penalty is ultimately 708 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 1: going to be resolved when we get the courts to 709 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: be so beat down by the inhumanity and the and 710 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,399 Speaker 1: the errors and the cruelty of it that they say 711 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: no more. And so that's a forum that I continued 712 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: to see opportunities for advancing these issues because it's about 713 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: rights and protecting the rights of disfavored people. It is 714 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: no longer something that I'm as optimistic about our political 715 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 1: process being responsive to my friend who's a politics of that, 716 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: he said that the reality of the politician today, he says, as, yes, 717 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: you have all these powerful tools and nowhere to plug 718 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: them in exactly. Yeah, I don't want to kind of 719 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: give up on it because I think we still need 720 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: good people to do it. But I definitely want to 721 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: find ways. Yeah, I am torn, but I definitely want 722 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: to find ways to get out there. And We're going 723 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: to keep doing that, you know, And I'm excited about 724 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: these projects. I think that we are going to push. 725 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: I think we can reduce the prison population by half 726 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: in the next ten years if we push in the 727 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: right way. You know, they are narratives we have to 728 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: control both state and federal nationwide. I think we can 729 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: get well. I think it's the kind of declaring that 730 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 1: the war on drugs was wrong, which now people on 731 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: the right and left are comfortable with drug policy. Well, 732 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: we think that we should just decriminalize these sentences that 733 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: have put people no, because I think that's a harder 734 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: sell in too many places, and we don't need to 735 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,320 Speaker 1: legalize to get people out of jails in prisons. Personally 736 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,479 Speaker 1: think that certain drugs should be legal. I don't really 737 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 1: feel I don't. Actually, I'm I'm I'm. I see the 738 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: content intos of drug addiction and drug dependency, and poor 739 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: and minority communities don't want that. Yeah, No, I don't. Really. 740 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 1: I want people to not be drug dependent, because your 741 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: life is compromised through that stuff. But more than that, 742 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 1: I just want to get these people out of prison 743 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,760 Speaker 1: and not drug dependent, because then they can be good 744 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,280 Speaker 1: workers and they can take advantage of whatever job programs 745 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: we create, which you can't take advantage of if you're 746 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: drug dependent, truthfully, and then you can become a good father, 747 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: and you can become a good husband or a good daughter, 748 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:26,839 Speaker 1: and a good wife, and a good child and a 749 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: good parent, all these things that people can't be when 750 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: their lives have been so destroyed by the distractions that 751 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: you have to have to cope with the ugliness of life. 752 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: And for me, that becomes both a moral imperative but 753 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: also a strategy for improving public safety and recovery for 754 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: communities that have been ravaged by so much threat and menace. 755 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: But I think we can do it that way of 756 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: reducing eliminating people being under jails in prison, and then 757 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 1: just having some proportionate rational sentencing. It's crazy. We we 758 00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,319 Speaker 1: have to. We have to have a complete We do 759 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 1: reconstruc we didn't we do. Thank you for your time. 760 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: You're very welcome. Brian Stevenson recently published Just Mercy, a 761 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 1: memoir about his experiences fighting injustices in the American legal system. 762 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: The work is stressful. Rosa Parks once personally warned Brian 763 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,720 Speaker 1: about exhaustion. To relax, he turns to his baby grand 764 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: piano at home. This is Alec Baldwin you're listening to. 765 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: Here's the thing.