Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland
Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: No notes, no notes.
Speaker 3: Notes, fuck, yes, absolutely, okay, work, I did that.
Speaker 2: I did that, and I know I did that because
Speaker 2: Jennifer Holiday looked at me and said, I sat there
Speaker 2: and cried when I watched.
Speaker 1: You saying that.
Speaker 3: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. My
Speaker 3: name is Laverne Cox. I am so excited about today's conversation.
Speaker 3: Alex Newle is a dear friend of mine who I
Speaker 3: haven't gotten to sit down and chat with in a
Speaker 3: really long time, so this will partly be a catch up.
Speaker 3: And I'm also a tremendous, tremendous fan. We met at
Speaker 3: the GLAD Awards in twenty fourteen. Alex came up to
Speaker 3: me and just introduced themselves and was so sweet, and
Speaker 3: I was aware of their work, of course, and then somehow,
Speaker 3: some way, a video of Alex singing with the Gay
Speaker 3: Men's Chorus of Boston popped up on my YouTube feed,
Speaker 3: and then I became utterly obsessed with Alex and Alex's
Speaker 3: insane voice, insane vocals like amazing, amazing, amazing voice. I
Speaker 3: really believe Alex Nowell is one of the best singers
Speaker 3: working today. And I'm just so happy for Alex and
Speaker 3: so proud of Alex, and we're going.
Speaker 1: To get into all of that today.
Speaker 3: So for those of you who don't know, Alex Newell
Speaker 3: first grabbed our attension on the small screen and Fox's
Speaker 3: critically acclaimed series Glee as transgender student waigde Unique Adams.
Speaker 3: They made history this year as the first non binary
Speaker 3: identifying actor to be nominated for a Best Featured Actor
Speaker 3: Tony Award, and went on to win that Tony Award
Speaker 3: for their amazing performance in the Broadway musical Shucked, I
Speaker 3: Mean Standing Ovations Girl every single Night. Alex was first
Speaker 3: seen on Broadway in twenty seventeen in the revival of
Speaker 3: Once on This Island and was a fan favorite in
Speaker 3: the hit TV show Zoe's Extraordinary Playlist, which garnered Alex
Speaker 3: a Critics Choice Award nomination. Please enjoy My Conversation with
Speaker 3: the one and only Alex Newell.
Speaker 1: This episode was recorded prior to the SAG After Strike.
Speaker 3: Hello Alex Newell, Welcome to the podcast. How are you
Speaker 3: feeling today, girl?
Speaker 2: I'm great? How are you, my dear I'm.
Speaker 3: Good, and I'm really really excited to be chatting with you.
Speaker 3: So I saw a shucked last week finally, and you
Speaker 3: were amazing. You just won a Tony and your Tony
Speaker 3: Award winning acceptance speech.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm tearing up right now.
Speaker 2: It's super strange because one, I hate a prepared speech,
Speaker 2: and so I was just I wanted to be in
Speaker 2: the moment, and I just wanted to let life be
Speaker 2: what life was in that moment and feel everything because
Speaker 2: even up until my name was called, it could have
Speaker 2: been anybody's, it could have been anybody's. And I mean
Speaker 2: that truly when I say that, I truly was not
Speaker 2: supposed to be up there. I wasn't supposed to win this.
Speaker 2: The path to this wasn't conventional, it wasn't the way
Speaker 2: that I envisioned it was going to be. And then
Speaker 2: on top of that, being who I am and what
Speaker 2: I am that walks this earth each day, there's not
Speaker 2: always space for me, and to have to carve that
Speaker 2: space out was even bigger in that moment because it
Speaker 2: did actually happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's why it's so emotional for me.
Speaker 3: Obviously, we've been friends for years and I've been a
Speaker 3: fan for years, and I just for me, it's just
Speaker 3: a testimony to what talent that your talent is just
Speaker 3: so big that it transcends all of the supposed limitations.
Speaker 3: The talent is so undeniable that you've just transcended. And
Speaker 3: that is like part of why I love you so much,
Speaker 3: part of why I think your story is so insanely
Speaker 3: inspiring and I'm just so happy and excited. And it
Speaker 3: was just there was history. There was another gender non
Speaker 3: conforming actor, Jay from Some Like It Hot, who also
Speaker 3: won a Tony that night, But in your speech you
Speaker 3: because I remember we had lunch in twenty fifteen at
Speaker 3: the Whole House in Los Angeles, and I was shocked
Speaker 3: when you told me that you applied to all these
Speaker 3: conservatories and did not get into any one of them.
Speaker 3: And I just can you talk to me about that process.
Speaker 3: I mean this voice that you have, this talent, that
Speaker 3: it's the voice, but it's the presence. To me, it
Speaker 3: seems like it would always be undeniable. What was that
Speaker 3: experience like for you not getting accepted anywhere with this
Speaker 3: talent back then?
Speaker 2: It was completely disheartening because you are told to your
Speaker 2: face how talented you are, and you are working as
Speaker 2: a professional actor at the time, and I was truly
Speaker 2: literally on Glee at the same time, and it's just like, yeah,
Speaker 2: it made sense to get into these schools because I
Speaker 2: was quite literally already successful. But there was something about
Speaker 2: not getting in that I was just like, am I
Speaker 2: not talented? Am I not good enough? Am I not?
Speaker 2: And then, now, being older, I know that it had
Speaker 2: nothing to do with that. It was where do we
Speaker 2: put this kid? But back then, when you're seventeen eighteen
Speaker 2: years old, you're just like, I'm not talented. I'm literally untalented.
Speaker 3: And I think that's a really interesting thing to sort
Speaker 3: of book mark or to note that, like so much
Speaker 3: of it's about how can we cast? Yes, much of
Speaker 3: a getting into a school is like who can we
Speaker 3: cast in the Spring you know musical and the Fall Musical,
Speaker 3: and you should have been playing Fie and you should
Speaker 3: have been doing what you're doing now, but they didn't
Speaker 3: have the vision for that. So at the same time,
Speaker 3: you were doing the Glee project, and so I didn't
Speaker 3: know that you submitted a video through MySpace Girl. MySpace
Speaker 3: take us back to submitting an audition tape and how
Speaker 3: old were you when Glee Project happened?
Speaker 2: I was when I did that tape. You know, my mother,
Speaker 2: when I was younger, I was held back twice, so
Speaker 2: I was already older than every one in my class.
Speaker 2: No matter what nine to eleven happened. Mother's like, you're
Speaker 2: the fourth grade, let's go back to third grade. And
Speaker 2: I was just like, okay, sure. And then we changed schools.
Speaker 2: School I started at they started at the fifth grade,
Speaker 2: even though I was the sixth grade. She was like,
Speaker 2: I guess you're going back to fifth grade. It won't hurt.
Speaker 2: And I was just like, ah, I'm old. So I
Speaker 2: did that tape the beginning of my junior year in
Speaker 2: high school.
Speaker 1: So you would have been sixteen or seventeen.
Speaker 2: I was eighteen. Were I was eighteen because it'd be
Speaker 2: eighteen to submit, So you're eighteen.
Speaker 1: What did you saying on your audition tape? Do you remember?
Speaker 2: I sang and I am telling you in our auditorium
Speaker 2: in my school uniform, Polo Khakis center stage and just
Speaker 2: screaming the song to the backist of Rose. And you know,
Speaker 2: it's strange because that video went viral. Essentially at that time,
Speaker 2: it was because you could upload your submissions onto the MySpace.
Speaker 2: Dear god, it was so long ago, and people would
Speaker 2: watch them and vote on them, and I got over
Speaker 2: like a million likes and views and all of that things.
Speaker 2: And to be honest, I was this close, like very
Speaker 2: very close to not have been on the Glee Project
Speaker 2: at all, because when I got the confirmation email about
Speaker 2: coming out to audition and be called back for this show,
Speaker 2: I thought it was a scam. Why because it just
Speaker 2: it was just so out of the blue. It was
Speaker 2: just like, pop, hey, we saw your online submission. We
Speaker 2: want you to fly out to Los Angeles. We'll pay
Speaker 2: for it. The hotel will pay for it. Please confirm.
Speaker 2: And I was like, that's a scam. So I deleted it.
Speaker 2: But then they kept pestering me. They kept following up,
Speaker 2: and I was just like, well, clear that this is
Speaker 2: kind of real.
Speaker 3: Okay, thank god you went hello yes, And then you
Speaker 3: didn't win the Glee Project, which is fascinating for they
Speaker 3: were so moved by the talent that they were like,
Speaker 3: let's give you a few episodes, and a few episodes
Speaker 3: turned into three seasons.
Speaker 2: The season, three, four, five, and six. Yeah, four seasons.
Speaker 1: Four seasons on Glee, which was life changing.
Speaker 3: The world got to know you, got to know unique
Speaker 3: there was this gender non conforming trans character on primetime television.
Speaker 3: It was so groundbreaking in so many incredible ways.
Speaker 1: And most of us who know you know that.
Speaker 3: But I want to go back a little bit because
Speaker 3: in your speech at the Tony's you mentioned your mom
Speaker 3: was there sitting next to you, and I remember, I
Speaker 3: think I met your mom at once in this island
Speaker 3: of premiere. Now your mom is there, and you grew
Speaker 3: up in the church in Lynn, Massachusetts, and you were
Speaker 3: this church going kid who.
Speaker 1: Was always you right and with this voice.
Speaker 3: And can you talk a little bit about your journey
Speaker 3: in the church, your mother, and then your gender non conformity,
Speaker 3: because I don't know if I've really heard you.
Speaker 1: Maybe you've talked about this, but girl, what's the team?
Speaker 2: Well, one thing about my mother always gave me space
Speaker 2: to be whoever the hell I wanted to be. She
Speaker 2: always led with quite literally as the Bible teaches you,
Speaker 2: to lead with love and to have compassion and to
Speaker 2: love your neighbor as your own self. And I'm a
Speaker 2: shaney bitch most days, but that is where my gaze
Speaker 2: of life is. It's that of love and.
Speaker 1: The gaz of life.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 2: So my mother growing up in church, like church for
Speaker 2: my family was that of community. I lived in predominantly
Speaker 2: white schools all my life, but like church was community.
Speaker 2: Like I call my mom's friends there, all of my
Speaker 2: aunts and uncles like those are my family members, not
Speaker 2: just church members that I know.
Speaker 3: So your church was black church, right, Just to be clear,
Speaker 3: I remember you even know the schools were predominantly white
Speaker 3: school yes, okay.
Speaker 2: And so they're all of my aunts and my uncles,
Speaker 2: and like true family members. We don't just see each
Speaker 2: other on Sunday. We saw each other through the week.
Speaker 2: They would babysit me. So that was my relationship. It
Speaker 2: wasn't until our pastor had died, Reverend Murray, who was
Speaker 2: I love that man. If I asked for a dollar,
Speaker 2: he would give me a dollar. I was a spoiled,
Speaker 2: rotten child. But so he passed away and we got
Speaker 2: a new pastor. And you know, with every change of regime,
Speaker 2: everybody has their own ideologies and their own feelings and
Speaker 2: how they interpret the Bible. And as I would get older,
Speaker 2: I would see how this one passed to would treat
Speaker 2: me as I came out more and was more expressive,
Speaker 2: and then he would bring in people that would have
Speaker 2: that same ideology that my lifestyle was wrong, something was
Speaker 2: wrong with me. I was sinning all of.
Speaker 1: That and specifically you are just in general.
Speaker 2: Well, there wasn't anyone else like me at church. So
Speaker 2: it was pointed. It was pointed. And I remember one time,
Speaker 2: because everyone loved me at that church, there were two
Speaker 2: specifical moments. One time, one of the associate pastors got
Speaker 2: in the pulpit and was towing the line of homosexuality
Speaker 2: is a sin and they were going to hell. And
Speaker 2: I remember no one in the church made a peep.
Speaker 2: They didn't say amen, they didn't agree with They just
Speaker 2: said And I think he was reprimanded by some of
Speaker 2: the elders in the church and said that we don't
Speaker 2: do that here. That's something we don't do. So and
Speaker 2: my mother said that she had a private conversation with
Speaker 2: a pastor at that time. And you know, when I sing,
Speaker 2: the Holy Ghost shows up. That's my ministry. And I
Speaker 2: know that well about me.
Speaker 3: Now, when did you start singing in church and singing
Speaker 3: in the choir? I'm assuming there were solos early on,
Speaker 3: but yeah.
Speaker 2: There were always solos. I was from the time that
Speaker 2: I could speak, when I was two, And you know,
Speaker 2: I thought that people hated how I sounded because they
Speaker 2: kept crying and every time I would sing, everyone was
Speaker 2: sobbing their eyes out, and I was just like, I
Speaker 2: sound awful. But I just realized as I got older
Speaker 2: that that was their way of showing how much they
Speaker 2: loved it, and I helped them have this cathartic moment
Speaker 2: and brought them closer to God while singing.
Speaker 3: So your first experience is singing. Just to pause on
Speaker 3: your first experience is singing two years old. I know
Speaker 3: the State Fair story, which is the gorgeous You saw
Speaker 3: somebody on stage at the State Bear when I, you know,
Speaker 3: left your mom and went up on stage and like
Speaker 3: started singing.
Speaker 1: That's genius. And so your first experience is singing in church.
Speaker 3: People were crying, yeah, because they're so moved by the
Speaker 3: beauty of the voice. So once you realize that you
Speaker 3: gave people a holy ghost and people saw God through
Speaker 3: you and you were able to process that, how did
Speaker 3: that change your life to understand that that it was
Speaker 3: a gift or did you understand that it was a gift?
Speaker 1: How was like didn't.
Speaker 2: I never knew it was a gift, And sometimes I
Speaker 2: think that's the best to not take it for granted.
Speaker 2: So you're just using it in its pure sense. Like
Speaker 2: I loved singing. I still loved singing, and so for
Speaker 2: me it was joy and I loved getting to do
Speaker 2: what I knew how to do so well. And my
Speaker 2: gift giving was actually me receiving it as well. I
Speaker 2: too got to experience my gift in that sense.
Speaker 1: That's that's incredible, that's incredible.
Speaker 3: So was there a certain points before auditioning for Glee
Speaker 3: project or was there a point where you were like, oh,
Speaker 3: maybe I got something.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm slaying, maybe I'm turning it.
Speaker 3: Because I mean, even the repertoire, even the boldness as
Speaker 3: of sixteen, seventeen, eighteen year old to take on Effie's singing,
Speaker 3: to take on these roll, these songs, this is the
Speaker 3: biggest I mean, Fie is like the biggest, probably most
Speaker 3: difficult Broadway roll besides Phantom, right, yea of the opera
Speaker 3: to sing and so to like the audacity, I mean,
Speaker 3: so girl, you had to know something just to even like,
Speaker 3: well I did.
Speaker 1: What did someone tell you girl? You should sing? Fie?
Speaker 2: No, I just had the gumption. Well, I just had
Speaker 2: the gall and the gumption and the audacity. I really did.
Speaker 2: I heard the song Here's Prior on the Fresh Prince
Speaker 2: of bel Air where Will is lip syncing and I'm
Speaker 2: telling you, and I was like, what's that song? And
Speaker 2: then I'm down this rabbit hole of Jennifer Holiday and
Speaker 2: dream Girls and just a whole new world of diaspora
Speaker 2: is in front of me.
Speaker 1: How old were you?
Speaker 2: I couldn't have been more than like eleven or twelve.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 3: So for Alex Newell to discover Jennifer Holiday and Dreamgirls
Speaker 3: at eleven years old feels like a really is life
Speaker 3: changing Yeah, give it all, life changing moment.
Speaker 2: Yes, and I and that's if there is one musical
Speaker 2: that I know from bookend to bookend, it is dream Girls.
Speaker 2: I know everything about it. And then when the movie
Speaker 2: came out on Christmas Day that year, I said We're going.
Speaker 2: I said, forget about Christmas, We're going to the movie theater.
Speaker 2: Immediately post hastetalling, we have to see the film.
Speaker 1: I love, love, love this.
Speaker 2: But then it's on top of that, it's like Jennifer Holiday,
Speaker 2: Neil Carter, even the Dame of Billy Porter, all of
Speaker 2: these voices that I've looked up to. That's when the
Speaker 2: wakening of like wanting to do theater, wanting to sing professionally.
Speaker 2: I think that's when I thought that I had the gumption.
Speaker 2: I was like, if they can do it, so can I.
Speaker 2: Let's get this ball rolling.
Speaker 1: Amazing. So oh, I love that you mentioned Neil Carter
Speaker 1: and it's so funny. I was.
Speaker 3: I remember I was sharing a video of you singing
Speaker 3: I'm random black Girl and my make d you know, Dajah,
Speaker 3: this is years ago, and Daja was like, I hear
Speaker 3: Neil car, little Neil Carter in there, and I Nail
Speaker 3: Cars from my hometown of Mobile, Alabama. I'm a huge
Speaker 3: Neil Carter fan, and I hear Neil in your voice,
Speaker 3: and so I just love I mean, every the Jennifer Holiday,
Speaker 3: you know, references are clear, but the Neil Carter.
Speaker 2: Yes sang in the nasal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so beautiful, such a beautiful sound that Neil
Speaker 1: Carter had.
Speaker 2: I remember watching the PBS special of Dateless Behavin and
Speaker 2: that's what really made me want to do musical theater.
Speaker 2: And then my mother was just like, oh, you know,
Speaker 2: to high school with her.
Speaker 1: I said, huh, your mother went to high school with
Speaker 1: Neil Carter.
Speaker 2: She was a senior when my mother was coming in
Speaker 2: as a freshman.
Speaker 1: And she is your mother from Alabama?
Speaker 2: Or yeah, my both of my darents are from Alabama.
Speaker 2: My mother's from Birmingham and my father's were just Lousa.
Speaker 1: You didn't know that. I did not know this, you know,
Speaker 1: from Obile. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2: But when my father died. When my father died when
Speaker 2: I was six, my mother would send me the Alabama
Speaker 2: each and every summer. So from the time that I
Speaker 2: was that's another thing. Being a church in the south
Speaker 2: versus being in church in the city, two different things.
Speaker 2: But oh yes, each and every year just in Cottondale, Alabama,
Speaker 2: each summer, from the time that I was like oh
Speaker 2: til I was like seventeen.
Speaker 1: I never ever knew this. And what I.
Speaker 3: Think is important to just also just underline is how
Speaker 3: like I was a person who grew up with a
Speaker 3: lot of shame and trauma and I did not feel
Speaker 3: that unconditional love from my mom. And it sounds like
Speaker 3: you had it always, and not only from her, but
Speaker 3: from your church community. The audacity for them to say
Speaker 3: we don't do that here we were not. That is
Speaker 3: so utterly transformative, and so then you can go into
Speaker 3: the world with a sense of worthiness. You can go
Speaker 3: into the world as as a gender non conforming person
Speaker 3: with a sense of worthiness that you have a right
Speaker 3: to be here. Obviously there's talent too, but even beyond
Speaker 3: the talent, a lot of you have talent but don't
Speaker 3: have that sense of worthiness, and so this makes the
Speaker 3: difference in terms of entering the world. And I just
Speaker 3: always want to emphasize that to like parents too, and
Speaker 3: you can get that later. If you didn't have that
Speaker 3: as a child, you can. It's never too late to
Speaker 3: have a happy childhood. But for you to be your
Speaker 3: age and even in your twenties, with the success that
Speaker 3: you had on Glee and then Zoe's Extraordinary Playlist and
Speaker 3: then your Broadway debut, and now being I believe you're thirty,
Speaker 3: how do you disclosure your age?
Speaker 2: I'm just thirty, You're just thirty.
Speaker 3: Okay, so you're thirty years old and just wanted to
Speaker 3: own your first Tony Award.
Speaker 1: That is incredible. That is fucking incredible. This is a
Speaker 1: good time to take a little break.
Speaker 3: We're back, so love from the family, love from the community.
Speaker 3: So you had not study voice formally, is what I've
Speaker 3: read before the Glee project. You were just singing in church,
Speaker 3: in choirs and school. There's a video of you. Do
Speaker 3: you have like a little scarf us you're wearing a
Speaker 3: suit if you're super young?
Speaker 1: Do you know how old you were in that video
Speaker 1: you sing I'm changing.
Speaker 2: Ah, I was most likely eighteen.
Speaker 1: Yes, so you're eighteen, And what's fascinating to me.
Speaker 3: The voice is stunningly beautiful, but if you build a song,
Speaker 3: so without any vocal training, you understood how to start
Speaker 3: quietly and to build a song, and then there's just
Speaker 3: there was so much support, and there was so much
Speaker 3: seeming technique. There was a forward placement, there was a
Speaker 3: little bit of a twang, there's rain.
Speaker 2: How do you it's truly mimicking. I think a lot
Speaker 2: of my pre knowing what I'm doing now with a
Speaker 2: lot of money now to have impeccable technique, But back
Speaker 2: then I think it was really me just trying to
Speaker 2: make it sound exactly like I remember hearing it and
Speaker 2: really pushing myself to knowing what that is. And at
Speaker 2: the time I was eighteen, so I was still in
Speaker 2: a private school, taking concert choir with my choral teacher,
Speaker 2: and him really stressing all the things even though he
Speaker 2: didn't know the voice technique and all of that stuff,
Speaker 2: but he knew the quality that he wanted and how
Speaker 2: to structure a good song. But it is it was
Speaker 2: making myself sound like Barbar Streison, or trying to make
Speaker 2: the grouse sound the same as Jennifer Holiday, or making
Speaker 2: sure I had that nice and nasally forward placement like
Speaker 2: Nel Carter because that's how the notes come out easier.
Speaker 2: So I think it was a lot.
Speaker 3: Of that, And then I think that thing is had
Speaker 3: to be playing around with all that without a voice
Speaker 3: feature and not hurt yourself. Yeah, were there moments when
Speaker 3: you would experiment and it'd be like, this doesn't feel right,
Speaker 3: like in terms of strain, because these chords are very delicate.
Speaker 2: I never had like, yeah, I lost my voice, like
Speaker 2: any person would lose their voice, but like I never
Speaker 2: really worried about it because it was so particular when
Speaker 2: I was younger. I can't stress it enough. When I
Speaker 2: was younger, before life and gravity hits your vocal cords
Speaker 2: and changes your voice, it was always so verily easy
Speaker 2: and effortless, like if you think I'm singing effortlessly now,
Speaker 2: back then, when I was a child and those o
Speaker 2: our bands, that rubberbanding down there, it was so easy.
Speaker 3: I remember when we talked it at lunch, you talked
Speaker 3: about when puberty hit and your voice. Presumably you were
Speaker 3: signed mail at birth, I think we can say. And
Speaker 3: so for most folks to sign mail at birth, when
Speaker 3: puberty happens, the voice dropped.
Speaker 1: So did that have been for you?
Speaker 2: Fully? Not?
Speaker 1: So? Bless your heart?
Speaker 3: So so what was your There was no I hate you?
Speaker 3: It did not mine did So you didn't have a
Speaker 3: voice drop? No, not at all?
Speaker 2: No, So no, what happened was I let's talk about it.
Speaker 2: The anatomy of my vocal box is already mutated. Okay,
Speaker 2: so that's really what it truly is. It's everything is smaller,
Speaker 2: compactor and narrower and mimics not exactly, but mimics and
Speaker 2: looks like that of a female voice box. Our vocal cords.
Speaker 1: You've been scoped, yes.
Speaker 2: We've looked at it. They're smaller, they're shorter, and there's
Speaker 2: like this little you that's normally like a wider you.
Speaker 2: But mine is an upright view, that makes everything more smaller,
Speaker 2: and then I have some tissue that makes even more
Speaker 2: narrower that is kind of mutated on top of the
Speaker 2: vocal cords, so it's like a little bump in front
Speaker 2: of the vocal cords, which makes it even smaller. So
Speaker 2: it makes everything that much higher as.
Speaker 3: Well, a bump in front of that, so like the
Speaker 3: false vocal folds or smaller. Is that when yeah, wow, oh,
Speaker 3: this is so fascinating.
Speaker 2: So it's a blessing and a curse because I have
Speaker 2: to push twice as much air out and even when
Speaker 2: I'm in my legitimate there's always just a little bit
Speaker 2: of a hiss back there because it's literally my air
Speaker 2: just gasping out.
Speaker 3: What's interesting to me when I move my voice because
Speaker 3: I you know, I'm a student of the voice, and
Speaker 3: I'm very fascinated by vocal pedagogy. And my voice teacher,
Speaker 3: who is a male soprano, Madam Iris Eiff, was a
Speaker 3: tenor and then sort of transitioned into a soprano. And
Speaker 3: what Iris says is that to form like a head
Speaker 3: voice for someone to signed male at birth who doesn't
Speaker 3: have you know, your vocal structure, is that for the
Speaker 3: head voice that a little bit of air has to
Speaker 3: pass through to just to make it easy and make Yeah.
Speaker 2: But when I when my voice changed, I would give
Speaker 2: Mariah a run for her money.
Speaker 3: There was a change there, but it wasn't like a drop, No,
Speaker 3: it was not. So when it changed, I just lost
Speaker 3: whistle tones. But I heard you as an adult with
Speaker 3: whistle tones. Where's to stay your whistle tones now? Because girl,
Speaker 3: we've heard I've heard above, I see I've heard g
Speaker 3: there's literally a video of you singing I think a
Speaker 3: G seven on because there's Alex to do a vocal
Speaker 3: range videos on YouTube.
Speaker 1: A lot of them have been taken down.
Speaker 2: I think I'm the one taking them down. I don't
Speaker 2: want the expectation that I'm going to be out here
Speaker 2: to give whistle tones.
Speaker 3: Or whistle tones are iffing, even for Mariah she in
Speaker 3: her prime. Some days it just you know, it wasn't there.
Speaker 2: Just doesn't come out. And that's where I'm at now. Yeah, okay, yes,
Speaker 2: some days I'll wake up and I call it a
Speaker 2: healthy day because I don't have them. And then on
Speaker 2: those sad damage days, I'm just like, well, I guess
Speaker 2: I have whistle tones, but it is it's temperamental. Like
Speaker 2: some days, my chords are to pristine to do whistle tones.
Speaker 2: They're relaxed and there there's no swelling anywhere. There's They're
Speaker 2: just there.
Speaker 3: So for you, a whistle is about a little bit
Speaker 3: of swelling your whistle. For me, that on the Tonies
Speaker 3: when you're saying, Mama will provide. On the Tonys, it's
Speaker 3: so big, there's such a it's such a big sound.
Speaker 2: That was I think. I was so i by the
Speaker 2: time I did that Tony performance, I was on so
Speaker 2: much steroids. I was on xenix. I was just I was.
Speaker 2: I had just been thrown all through the ringer throughout
Speaker 2: that entire show, where it felt like I was carrying
Speaker 2: this show on my back. I was doing all the press,
Speaker 2: I was doing all the shows. I wasn't calling out.
Speaker 2: I was running around doing Broadway in the Park, Broadway
Speaker 2: in the Alley, Broadway bars, Broadway bears like, Broadway Under
Speaker 2: the Stars, Broadway Broadway. I was just like, I can't
Speaker 2: do anymore and zero zero reward. I was nominated for Tony,
Speaker 2: wasn't nominated for a drama desk. I wasn't drama dated
Speaker 2: for many things that season and it was just like,
Speaker 2: all right, let's just get on the stage and sing
Speaker 2: for Grandma.
Speaker 1: And saying for the god Tonning. You sang for the
Speaker 1: god Tonning. You wore it out, girl.
Speaker 2: I think I was just so tired, and that whistle
Speaker 2: tone was kind of just like my last goah. I
Speaker 2: was just like, well, I'm singing, let's go and just
Speaker 2: keep going.
Speaker 1: Yes, bitch, you did it in performances too.
Speaker 3: There were videos of Mama to provide the way you
Speaker 3: did it in performances as well, and it's just it's beautiful.
Speaker 1: So we talked last week about Shocked versus.
Speaker 3: Once on This Island, which was written for someone else,
Speaker 3: and obviously Lulu was written espressly for you, so that
Speaker 3: run it sounds like once on This Island was whether
Speaker 3: that was a strenuous number for you or is it
Speaker 3: just not getting rest?
Speaker 2: It was everything all of that. It was not getting
Speaker 2: enough for rest, being in my twenties and thinking that
Speaker 2: I could go out and and then come and do
Speaker 2: my show the very next day. For met Today, it
Speaker 2: was the sand, being in that sand all the time
Speaker 2: and just breathing it in and constantly getting sick and
Speaker 2: hiding and never being able to get truly well, or
Speaker 2: the animals and the pet dander that was always around,
Speaker 2: or you know, there was a myriad of things that
Speaker 2: was just like fighting me at every juncture. I was like,
Speaker 2: I got bronchitis four times during that run, and I
Speaker 2: was just like, is this where I die bronchitis?
Speaker 1: When you have to sing that number? Like, yes, that
Speaker 1: is not.
Speaker 2: And it was saying for someone else. And on top
Speaker 2: of that, it's the expectation of the two great fucking
Speaker 2: women that came before me to do that role. I'm
Speaker 2: singing Keisha Lewis's song that Lilyus White took up a
Speaker 2: whole half step and sang down, and so that expectation
Speaker 2: of walking into work.
Speaker 1: I think you added a run though that they didn't
Speaker 1: do that.
Speaker 3: I think that, yes, whoa, that's an Alex Newall.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was me. That was the one stemp that
Speaker 2: I had because I was like, what vocal health do
Speaker 2: I have to do this clissando up seamlessly because there
Speaker 2: might have been danced and said whoa or whoo. So
Speaker 2: I said, how could I maneuver this? I know for
Speaker 2: me that I will get up to that.
Speaker 1: I f mm hmm, it makes sense.
Speaker 3: I mean, singing a high note as part of a
Speaker 3: scale is a lot easier than just hitting in a gossando, which.
Speaker 2: Is stupid because I do with glissando in my song.
Speaker 2: Now at the very end, can.
Speaker 3: You talk a little bit about the difference between the run,
Speaker 3: because as far as I know, you always hit the
Speaker 3: run and mom will provide the glissando, and independently owned
Speaker 3: is more.
Speaker 1: It's trickier for you. Do you know why that is
Speaker 1: for you?
Speaker 2: There are two reasons. One it's I have just come
Speaker 2: out of the phrase of these long held notes I
Speaker 2: do celebrated, and there's not really breath there. So by
Speaker 2: the time I get to you and I live my life,
Speaker 2: I'm already at my breath capacity. And the other thing
Speaker 2: is I can't say musically and I live my love
Speaker 2: because that's that's a break, or I can't do and
Speaker 2: I live my life. I wish I could, but that
Speaker 2: breath makes it less impressive.
Speaker 3: And it just Yeah, thessando is part of a bigger
Speaker 3: phrase that's ye live my life.
Speaker 2: But then you have to hold You have to hold
Speaker 2: the life for two beats before you can slide up
Speaker 2: because the court underneath the piano hasn't changed yet. Wow,
Speaker 2: because if you just go straight through the gossando you
Speaker 2: sound flex girl.
Speaker 1: WHOA okay? Wow?
Speaker 3: At what point did you start working with vocal coaches
Speaker 3: and cultivating with someone the gift?
Speaker 1: You know? How did that change your voice?
Speaker 3: How did that change your understanding of singing when you
Speaker 3: started actually taking voice lessons?
Speaker 2: So I have a great voice coach now, Mike Ruccles brilliance.
Speaker 2: He really helped me through months in this island because
Speaker 2: I kept hitting the wall. I kept hitting the wall,
Speaker 2: and I was just like, I can't make it. I'm
Speaker 2: not making it. And you know, I was young and
Speaker 2: stupid and I was never calling out. So he he's
Speaker 2: looked at me one day and said, you're working too hard.
Speaker 2: You are out here singing far too hard. Less, give
Speaker 2: less and then take a step back. You don't have
Speaker 2: to be impressive every single show because what you're doing
Speaker 2: in itself is already impressive.
Speaker 1: MM.
Speaker 3: So it's the I need to let them know, you know,
Speaker 3: every single night, and learning how to what Lantine price.
Speaker 3: My operatic idol says on your interest, not your capital,
Speaker 3: So you learned to sing on your interests, not your capital,
Speaker 3: so that you could have something left over. And what
Speaker 3: was interesting about last week's performance of Independently Owned So
Speaker 3: I've I'm upset, I'm obsessed with you singing independently owns
Speaker 3: So what we have the cast recording that's on YouTube,
Speaker 3: when you're in the recording studio where you bitch work,
Speaker 3: it's just iconic. We had the voice. Oh girl, you
Speaker 3: slay the voice. You should get an Emmy nomination for that.
Speaker 3: Hell you, we need to get her in egop. Slay
Speaker 3: that and the growls and the grunts, right, and then
Speaker 3: we hurt churture at the Tony's And then there's other
Speaker 3: videos of you know, bootleg or people recorded things from
Speaker 3: the audience or whatever. And then what was so beautiful
Speaker 3: for me last week hearing you was I felt you
Speaker 3: singing on your interest and there's there's something so beautiful
Speaker 3: that the purity of your voice. You have this growl
Speaker 3: like there're the maturity that the voice has, but there's
Speaker 3: still this pure or soprano, highly placed sound that is gorgeous.
Speaker 3: And you did the slide because you'll do the that glissando.
Speaker 1: You'll do it.
Speaker 3: You do it on the recording. You slide up and
Speaker 3: then growl at the top of it. I believe if
Speaker 3: I'm going.
Speaker 1: And you growl and work.
Speaker 3: But last week they're what you The slide happened, but
Speaker 3: there was less of a growl, and so there was
Speaker 3: What was beautiful about it is that the purely pureness
Speaker 3: of the tone at the top right. And maybe it
Speaker 3: was you like saying, I'm not gonna give everything tonight,
Speaker 3: but it was also what I loved as just a
Speaker 3: fan of your voice and a fan of just beautiful singing.
Speaker 1: Is that tone. There's a beautiful soprano sound that you
Speaker 1: have that I'm you know, I want you to sing opera.
Speaker 3: We've talked about this, but we got to hear that
Speaker 3: beautiful sound and in the duets as well. And the
Speaker 3: acting is so beautiful in your performance as well, and
Speaker 3: there's just so much heart and you're hilarious, and it's
Speaker 3: just beautiful to watch the growth that you've had as
Speaker 3: an actor from Glee Once on This Island is always
Speaker 3: extraordinary playlist which you were actually were wonderful. You got
Speaker 3: a Quittic's Choice nomination for Lways Extraordinary play. This beautiful
Speaker 3: acting on that show and just to see the growth
Speaker 3: as also as an actor is really wonderful. Can you
Speaker 3: talk a little bit about the relationship. For you as
Speaker 3: a musical theater artist, building the character into song, like
Speaker 3: musical theater is like you're telling the story in so
Speaker 3: many different ways with the voice, with characterization, and the physicality.
Speaker 3: Lulu has a very specific physicality that's gorgeous.
Speaker 4: That she does.
Speaker 2: So you know, for me, it's always the ground up.
Speaker 2: I had someone to ask me when I was doing
Speaker 2: a Christmas Carol, how do you get into character? And
Speaker 2: I say, I think I start by quite literally molding
Speaker 2: how they walk? How did they hold themselves when they're
Speaker 2: just walking. And I have the mindset of how they're walking,
Speaker 2: I'm in it. And so that's why Vulu's walk is
Speaker 2: so distinct, Like anytime I step foot on that stage,
Speaker 2: that bitch is stomping because she has some place to go.
Speaker 2: And you know, the costume helps with the corset. But
Speaker 2: I want the singing and the acting to be so seamless.
Speaker 2: I want to be second nature. I don't want it
Speaker 2: to be like I'm talking now and now I'm gonna sing.
Speaker 2: I want to be Oh, I'm happy to sing right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And there's a great analysis.
Speaker 3: There's a wonderful channel called black Music Archive where they
Speaker 3: do an analysis of your independently owner and if you've
Speaker 3: seen that video and Malik talks about how is written
Speaker 3: kind of in your speaking voice. It sort of starts there,
Speaker 3: so when you start, it's coming out of dialogue and
Speaker 3: then you're kind of it's like talk singing, but your
Speaker 3: talk singing is very way higher than a lot of people, and.
Speaker 1: So it sort of comes out of that.
Speaker 3: So it's beautiful to have something written for you, like,
Speaker 3: can you talk a little bit about like the evolution
Speaker 3: of independently owned in terms of when you got the
Speaker 3: role and how the song changed or did it well?
Speaker 2: The ending, the whole back half of the song was
Speaker 2: completely written for me. The first half of the song
Speaker 2: it like it was already written. It was the same.
Speaker 2: It was like, I'll know a change. I've always been
Speaker 2: a w O M A N. I'm independently oh and
Speaker 2: celebrated I'm independently Oh dada da da da da da
Speaker 2: da da da da da and I live my life independently. Button. Wow,
Speaker 2: that's how the song went. And it said button And
Speaker 2: we did our out of town tryout and they heard
Speaker 2: me singing and they said we need more.
Speaker 1: Well because miss thing can bring more. I mean, this
Speaker 1: is Alex new Ole Darling. We need to have a climax.
Speaker 1: We need to have a modulation.
Speaker 2: And because modulated was always there, the joke was always there.
Speaker 2: But then our music director and Jason how it was
Speaker 2: just like I just let's just keep and so we
Speaker 2: were still in the room and literally just were playing
Speaker 2: and bouncing ideas back and forth off each other, and
Speaker 2: he was just playing chords, and you know, you wanted bigger.
Speaker 2: There was one time that one version of the song
Speaker 2: and I was like Jason, I literally cannot sing that
Speaker 2: the list.
Speaker 4: It wasn't just modulate to celebrate Da da da da
Speaker 4: It was but da da da da da da da
Speaker 4: da da da da Da Da Da Da Da Da
Speaker 4: Da da da da da da da da da da
Speaker 4: da da da.
Speaker 2: And I was like Jason, I literally cannot breathe. We
Speaker 2: need to I'll just die right on the floor. And
Speaker 2: so we truncated it.
Speaker 3: But like even I have my limitations, everyone does, and
Speaker 3: it's important to know again, to know what those limitations
Speaker 3: are and to say that, and to say it. I
Speaker 3: remember someone and I haven't. I didn't talk to Billy
Speaker 3: about this, but I heard like through the grapevine when
Speaker 3: Billy did Kinky Booths, that Billy went in and said, okay,
Speaker 3: if you want me to do a shows a week,
Speaker 3: and he's in this key like, this is what it
Speaker 3: is it needs to be. And this is Billy, a
Speaker 3: very seasoned Billy, coming in saying you know, this is
Speaker 3: what it's got to be.
Speaker 1: And so knowing that for yourself is so very very important. Okay,
Speaker 1: it's that time again. We'll be right back. We are back.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Okay, Like, okay, I have audio that
Speaker 1: I want to share with you.
Speaker 4: I am.
Speaker 2: Sup, but I think I mean I need.
Speaker 4: Sing up singing so clear.
Speaker 3: And chi I'm ordify.
Speaker 2: Ill talking out and I'm not BA, but I'm.
Speaker 3: Up little.
Speaker 2: I cannot.
Speaker 3: Okay segment Alex is nodding. Segment this is the thing
Speaker 3: I wanted to listen with you. So the first one
Speaker 3: was I think you were probably eighteen or so. It
Speaker 3: was that one with the little scarf, and then the
Speaker 3: second one was with the Boston Gay Men's Course from
Speaker 3: twenty fourteen, so you've been twenty two. And then the
Speaker 3: last one was last year when you were twenty nine.
Speaker 3: I guess at Broadway juneteenth twenty twenty two. So a
Speaker 3: decade of you singing, I am changing and there's more
Speaker 3: versions on the internet. So your first reactions like I
Speaker 3: sang that, so you hear this, because like oftentimes people
Speaker 3: are like, oh, they may have notes or they might
Speaker 3: you know, be like, oh you know I could have
Speaker 3: done this better.
Speaker 5: You're like, no, no, no, no, fuck, yes, absolutely, okay,
Speaker 5: I did that.
Speaker 2: I did that, And I know I did that because
Speaker 2: Jennifer Holiday looked at me and said, I sat there
Speaker 2: and cried when I watched you sing that. You did
Speaker 2: me so proud of I'm so thankful for that. She
Speaker 2: came to see shop and she told me this in person.
Speaker 2: She told me. She called me after it, but she
Speaker 2: told me to me in person. She said, you honored
Speaker 2: me and made it your own, and I love that
Speaker 2: about you. You will pay homage to those that account
Speaker 2: before you and still have your own twist on what
Speaker 2: was there. And that's how I want to do any
Speaker 2: song that's already iconic. But also that song has meant
Speaker 2: so much for me my entire life. I mean, that's
Speaker 2: why it's been over a decade that I've been singing it.
Speaker 2: Not here in makeup, here hold on Oh the DNC
Speaker 2: and I'm accepting my final award.
Speaker 3: Oh work, okay, So I don't want to keep you
Speaker 3: too much longer, But can you reflect on the eighteen
Speaker 3: year old you, the twenty two year old you, the voice.
Speaker 1: That you heard then, right? And then the difference is
Speaker 1: in the maturity.
Speaker 3: I mean, you sound like a grown woman in twenty
Speaker 3: twenty two, like a grown woman because I am grown now.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like you slayed all of them? No?
Speaker 2: I mean absolutely not. I mean no eighteen year old
Speaker 2: should be singing and changing.
Speaker 1: But you did, and you slayed it. There's so much
Speaker 1: that was added to that number that you gave us.
Speaker 3: I think that's when I listened to all three of
Speaker 3: them back to back, it's like this bitch has been
Speaker 3: through some stuff that she is bringing in a whole
Speaker 3: new way.
Speaker 1: That's what I hear. But what do you hear when
Speaker 1: you listen to the three versions?
Speaker 2: Well, I hear the one in a sense of purity
Speaker 2: that was there back in twenty fourteen or however long ago.
Speaker 2: I was singing the little song, I knew none of
Speaker 2: those words I was singing. I know what that song
Speaker 2: was about back then. I do now know what that
Speaker 2: song is about, because life is a bitch and it
Speaker 2: comes hard, and you figured some shit out. But back
Speaker 2: then it was truly just I liked singing the song,
Speaker 2: and that was I was having fun while singing it.
Speaker 2: And now I get to have my life lessons and
Speaker 2: have fun singing the song, and I still can't wait
Speaker 2: to sing it eight shows a week.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how are we manifesting Fie for you?
Speaker 3: I mean, I know it's been on your bucket list forever,
Speaker 3: so it's gonna happen. We've been man if you've been
Speaker 3: manifesting it your whole life, and it will. I know
Speaker 3: it will happen on God's time, not our time. Oh,
Speaker 3: Alex Knewell the Tony Award winning Out of Circle Critics
Speaker 3: Drama Death Award winning.
Speaker 2: Oh, I just handed me everything this time. They had
Speaker 2: to be nothing the last time. This time they said
Speaker 2: take it off.
Speaker 1: So what's next? What's the dream now?
Speaker 2: I mean a vacation, Oh, well, deserved vacation.
Speaker 5: I've never well.
Speaker 2: I took my first vacation last year for my thirtieth
Speaker 2: birthday and it was only for four days. So it's time.
Speaker 2: But we sit and we talked about all the amazing
Speaker 2: things I've done. I've never gotten to take a break.
Speaker 2: I've constantly been working NonStop and I'm very blessed and
Speaker 2: fortunate that i had this opportunity to do such. But
Speaker 2: it is time to take a step back and like,
Speaker 2: actually appreciate all the hard work I've done.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think what I love about There's so
Speaker 3: many things I love about you. I mean, I just
Speaker 3: love pure talent excites me. Amazing singing excites me, but
Speaker 3: cultivating the talent. A lot of people are gifted and
Speaker 3: talented and have voices, but you have really cultivated and studied.
Speaker 3: And even before you had voice teachers, you studied, right,
Speaker 3: you studied, now, Carter, you studied, and so there's different
Speaker 3: ways to study.
Speaker 1: And that's what I love. And I remember we're talking
Speaker 1: to you in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 3: I was just like, this is it is a gift
Speaker 3: from God that you have and it is and it's
Speaker 3: rare for singers to be able to maintain their voices
Speaker 3: over decades. And this is my dream for you that
Speaker 3: you know, at seventy you're giving us everything that you
Speaker 3: can do.
Speaker 2: I will still be Pat Lavelle when I'm seventy eight. Yes, ma'am,
Speaker 2: I'm going to be Patricia Labille. She is still out
Speaker 2: here singing the girls now.
Speaker 3: Amen, and I still want using some offer two. But
Speaker 3: you know, if you feel so called, so to be
Speaker 3: continued with you, Alex, I love you so much. In
Speaker 3: my podcast with the question what else is true? It's
Speaker 3: taken from my therapy and the idea of both. And
Speaker 3: when things are rough and things are challenging in the world,
Speaker 3: as they often are, we can focus on the thing
Speaker 3: that's challenging. We can also focus on the thing that
Speaker 3: brings us joy that the other thing that's that is true,
Speaker 3: because it's always both, and so for you today, Alex Newell,
Speaker 3: what else is true?
Speaker 2: What else is true? Honesty? That's where I'm at, Honesty.
Speaker 2: I think we get afraid of honesty and truth a
Speaker 2: lot of times, and we don't like it if it hurts,
Speaker 2: and we don't like it if it's too much to
Speaker 2: hear at one time. And I've lived my life in
Speaker 2: such an honest way, and I try to live my
Speaker 2: life in such an honest way, and sometimes it comes
Speaker 2: off shady, sometimes it comes off mean, but it's our
Speaker 2: truth and sometimes it's better to let that out.
Speaker 3: What has been a truthful moment that you've had, or
Speaker 3: an honest moment that you've had with yourself or someone
Speaker 3: else that has been maybe hard to hear or hard
Speaker 3: to say.
Speaker 2: You know, I think it's asking for help. A lot
Speaker 2: of times I had to do that in the back
Speaker 2: of my mind and realize that it is actually okay
Speaker 2: to ask for help. I sing the song independently own
Speaker 2: eight chos a week and knowing that I've cultivated this
Speaker 2: great career of mine on my own, and a lot
Speaker 2: of that has come with struggle of trying to do
Speaker 2: it all on my own and not really wanting to
Speaker 2: do anything else after that.
Speaker 1: So yeah, Wow, as the phone rings, we can ask
Speaker 1: for help, we can ask for help. I love that.
Speaker 3: That is a great note to end on. Thank you
Speaker 3: so much, Alex Nowell. You are a gift to the
Speaker 3: world and I love you so much.
Speaker 2: I love you, I love you.
Speaker 5: I'm so happy for you. I'm so happy and fucking proud.
Speaker 1: You know. I'm so proud. I love you, Alex. Alex Newell.
Speaker 3: Oh, that was so wonderful watching Alex listen to themselves
Speaker 3: saying and just be an utter joy of how beautiful
Speaker 3: their sound is, how much they turned it out.
Speaker 1: It reminds me of my idol, Lantine Price.
Speaker 3: There's many many interviews of Liantine and articles written about
Speaker 3: Lantine where she says I just love the sound of
Speaker 3: my voice, and watching Alex listen to themselves saying I
Speaker 3: am changing through the years. I felt Alex in something
Speaker 3: similar Alex to not say that, but Alex was like, no, notes.
Speaker 3: What's wonderful to me about that is that we can
Speaker 3: be so critical of ourselves as artists, and I'm so
Speaker 3: critical of myself, but Alex was just like I did that.
Speaker 3: And also I think what's beautiful about Leontine and Alex
Speaker 3: is that they both understand it's a gift from God,
Speaker 3: that it's not even really theirs right, that it is
Speaker 3: something that is bigger than them. And I was just
Speaker 3: thinking about Alex as a child, like opening their mouth
Speaker 3: and this beautiful, pure sound comes out, and that sound
Speaker 3: is still there, and I don't know, it feels like
Speaker 3: this metaphor for life, as like we grow and mature
Speaker 3: and go through life and hopefully become.
Speaker 1: Better visions of ourselves.
Speaker 3: That that purity, that light that we all have inside
Speaker 3: of us as children, if we can maintain that if
Speaker 3: the voice can be a metaphor for what we can
Speaker 3: do to maintain a certain kind of purity and innocence
Speaker 3: as we move through the world, even as we, you know,
Speaker 3: maybe a little weathered by life.
Speaker 1: To keep that freshness.
Speaker 3: Lantine says that she feels the youngest and the most
Speaker 3: vibrant when she's singing, that it should be this like
Speaker 3: youthful exuberance, and Alex indeed has that. Let's all like
Speaker 3: start collectively manifesting Alex singing e Fie and Dreamgirls like
Speaker 3: everyone within the sound of my voice. Let's manifest that
Speaker 3: because we need to see Alex nule as Fie and Dreamgirls.
Speaker 1: We need to see that.
Speaker 3: Thank you for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Please
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Speaker 3: for Real.
Speaker 1: Until next time, stay in the love. The Laverne Cox
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