1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 3 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb, and in today's episode, I'm going 4 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: to be chatting with Tom Lathan, author of the new 5 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 2: book Lost Wonders Ten Tales of Extinction from the twenty 6 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 2: first Century. It's out June tenth. Without further ado, let's 7 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 2: jump right into the interview. Hi Tom, Welcome to the show. 8 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 3: Hi that Rov, Thanks so much for having me. 9 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 2: The new book is Lost Wonders, Ten Tales of Extinction 10 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 2: from the twenty first Century, publishing June tenth here in 11 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 2: the States, came out earlier, what in November in the UK? Right, 12 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 2: that's right. 13 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 3: Yes. 14 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 2: It tackles the sixth mass extinction event that we're all 15 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 2: living in by chronicling ten different recently extinct species. You know, 16 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 2: we've all read or heard about the I'm going Holo 17 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 2: scene extinction. But do you find that people have a 18 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 2: difficult time truly grasping what's happening or the scale of 19 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 2: what's happening. 20 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think it is a difficult thing to grasp, 21 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 3: you know, even for people who are following this and 22 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 3: who care about this. It is kind of crazy, and 23 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 3: I think, you know, mainly because of the timescale that 24 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 3: it's happening on the reason why I really wanted to 25 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 3: write this book, which is actually eleven species. It's ten stories, 26 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 3: but eleven species. Two of those species, their story is 27 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 3: so so similar, so intertwined. The two birds are mistaken 28 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 3: for one another. Even so, it made sense to tell 29 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 3: those in one story, as it were in one chapter. 30 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 3: But really the thing that unites the entire book is 31 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 3: that these are species that have gone extinct in the 32 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 3: twenty first century. The reason why I wanted to write 33 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,559 Speaker 3: about those species in particular, it's because I really wanted 34 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 3: to get into the idea that extinction is unfolding all 35 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 3: around us, and that when we tip think of extinction, 36 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 3: it can be this this far flung thing from the past. 37 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 3: You know, virtually everyone's first encounter with the word will 38 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 3: be in the context of dinosaurs. You know, I was 39 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 3: a dinosaur kid. I was obsessed the Jurassic Park. That was, yeah, 40 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 3: we look like we're probably the similar age. So you 41 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 3: probably had your Jurassic Park phase, but absolutely either that 42 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 3: or the Dodo, and these are these are things from 43 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 3: the distant past, and I think that we all make 44 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 3: an unconscious association there with the word extinction and the past, 45 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 3: but it's it's obviously it's unfolding all around us. And 46 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 3: I actually came to the book, came to the idea 47 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 3: of writing the book when I learned that one of 48 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 3: these species, the Christmas eln in Pipastrell, had actually gone 49 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 3: extinct on my twenty third birthday. And when I learned 50 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 3: that fact, and I realized that I could remember, you know, 51 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 3: what I'd been doing that day, I could remember who 52 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 3: I'd been with, you know, I, well, most of most 53 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 3: probably can't really remember the evening, but I remember a 54 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 3: lot of the day. I could look back through emails 55 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 3: and texts, social media and really kind of get a 56 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 3: picture of what my world was like on the day 57 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 3: that as species went extinct. It was just a kind 58 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 3: of mind blowing realization, and it kind of got me 59 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 3: thinking about what else had gone extinct, you know, within 60 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 3: my lifetime, within the lifetimes of most people who read 61 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 3: the book. So that's what really kind of drove me. 62 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're kind of making something that's kind of 63 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 2: invisible to many visible and real in a way. 64 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think it's understandable that you know, 65 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 3: we don't necessarily as a species, we don't really necessarily 66 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 3: think about extinction that much, I would say, and it 67 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 3: can be quite a dour subject, and there's very often 68 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 3: you know, we are anthropercentric. We're obsessed with our own 69 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 3: stories and our own our own species. So you know, 70 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 3: an obscure back going extinct or a tiny snail going 71 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 3: extinct somewhere in the world isn't necessarily going to kind 72 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 3: of grab everyone's attention. I think it's really important that 73 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 3: we know what's going on, and you know, it probably 74 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 3: won't surprise anyone to hear that in all of these stories, 75 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 3: we're the cause, either in the here and now or 76 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 3: we set off the chain of events that have led 77 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 3: to these extinctions. 78 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: Now, I don't want to give potential readers the wrong idea, though, 79 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 2: because each chapter of your of your book is I 80 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 2: guess in a very real sense of tragedy, but there 81 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 2: that each chapter is also about like the wonders and 82 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 2: improbabilities surrounding these various species. So I definitely want to 83 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 2: get into some questions about those wonders and improbabilities as 84 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: we look at maybe a few examples. But how did 85 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 2: you how did you end up finalizing a list for 86 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 2: the book? Where did you? I mean, obviously have you 87 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 2: had the one in mind that corresponded with your your 88 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 2: twenty third birthday, But how about the rest of them? 89 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 2: How this come together? 90 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 3: Yeah? So, really, when I started the project, or actually 91 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 3: before I go into that, I think, Carle, echo what 92 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 3: you said. I think you're right. You know, extinction. I 93 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 3: think sometimes it's one of those issues that people might 94 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 3: not want to think about, because, you know, it just God, 95 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 3: it's just terrible, isn't it something going extinct, especially something 96 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 3: that's millions of years old. It's kind of mind boggling. 97 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 3: But one thing, and actually when I when I went 98 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 3: into writing the book, it was it was a doubt 99 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 3: I had, like, God, is this is anyone going to 100 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 3: want to read this? This is just going to be 101 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 3: so depressing. But as I actually got into the research, 102 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 3: and a big part of that research was actually talking 103 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 3: to the people who were there on the ground. In 104 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 3: some cases they may they discovered these species. In other 105 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 3: cases they'd taken care of the last individual of a 106 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 3: species and kind of dealt with the aftermath of extinction. 107 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 3: I actually really found a lot of grounds for hope 108 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:54,239 Speaker 3: in that because it's really inspiring the lengths that people 109 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 3: go to in conservation. It's a field that is absolutely 110 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 3: jam packed with unsung heroes, people that go above and 111 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 3: beyond the call of duty every single day, who have 112 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 3: their who have their job, and there are just little 113 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 3: things that they do just completely off their own initiative, 114 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 3: just because they know they can make a difference. And 115 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 3: there are even stories of species being saved by people 116 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 3: who who aren't scientists, who are hobbyists. There's an example 117 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 3: in the book of a species of pupfish, which is 118 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 3: a tiny little fish from the American West, and also 119 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,239 Speaker 3: also in Mexico. There are species spread across the arid areas. 120 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 3: And one particular one of the people that I spoke 121 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 3: to was actually a bus driver from New Jersey who 122 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 3: is a hobbyist. He just loves fish, you know, since 123 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 3: he was a kid, and he's actually become involved in 124 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 3: the efforts to save endangered species. He's when I spoke 125 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 3: to him, he had a critically endangered species just behind 126 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,679 Speaker 3: him in his fish tank, and it's you know, obviously 127 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 3: there's there's no financial incentive for him, and I just 128 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 3: think that the more that you learn about these stories Yes, 129 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 3: the subjects of this book have gone extinct, but the 130 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 3: people who tried to save them have had other successes. 131 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 3: They've used the knowledge that they gained from trying to 132 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 3: save these species, which very often is uncharted territory. Some 133 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 3: of these extinctions happened because the scientists simply didn't know 134 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 3: how do we help this species. But from these experiences, 135 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 3: they've learned what they need to do to save other species, 136 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 3: and they've had success. And I just find that really inspiring. 137 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 3: But sorry to go on to your question. Could you 138 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 3: remind me again of what you are? 139 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 2: Oh? I asked just how you ended up coming up 140 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 2: with a list? 141 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 3: Yes, So, I as a journalist. I've been writing about 142 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 3: nature for a few years and it came out of 143 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 3: quite an organic conversation with my partner, who's also a writer, 144 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 3: and I just had this thought. I just wondered, you know, 145 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 3: what's I wonder what's gone extinct? You know, in the 146 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 3: last you know, in my lifetime essentially. So I contacted 147 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 3: the ice UCN, which is the International Union for the 148 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 3: Conservation of Nature, which is the global body that essentially 149 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 3: oversees the conservation status of everything. So they're the they're 150 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 3: the people essentially who give the final word and whether 151 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 3: something is endangered, critically endangered, extinct, extinct in the world, 152 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 3: and so on, And I just I just asked them, 153 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 3: you know, for a list of recent extinctions, and they 154 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 3: sent me back this enormous, sprawling spreadsheet full of hundreds. 155 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 3: I think it was up with the five hundred extinctions. 156 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 3: But thankfully that that spreadsheet included a by date of 157 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 3: extinction column, so I filtered by that, and these eleven 158 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 3: species are what kind of came out of that, and 159 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 3: I really kind of really that's when it really kind 160 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 3: of struck me. In fact, that's the moment where I 161 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 3: saw the the extinction date of the pipistre being my 162 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 3: birthday and made that connection and had that realization. 163 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 2: Well, I want to I'm want to ask about one 164 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 2: that I have to acknowledge that on the surface, this 165 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: one might not seem that exciting. And when I was 166 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 2: reading your book, that was my initial response. I was 167 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 2: kind of like, well this, I don't know how enthralled 168 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 2: I'm going to be by this one. But it ended 169 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 2: up being I think my one of my favorite chapters, 170 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: and this is the chapter dealing with the Saint Helena 171 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 2: Olive can you tell us a little bit about the 172 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 2: island of Saint Helena and the Saint Helena Olive. I 173 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: was not I was vaguely familiar with the island from 174 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 2: its prominence in history, but I was not familiar with 175 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 2: this organism at all. 176 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, that is also one of my favorites. Before I 177 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 3: go into that, I think it's interesting. I was thinking 178 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 3: about this this morning. Actually, I think we're all kind 179 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 3: of conditioned to see wildlife in a certain way. You know, 180 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 3: if I don't know if you guys have I'm presuming 181 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 3: you guys have David Attenborough documentaries. Oh yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, 182 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 3: National Hero, so that you know. I was raised on 183 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 3: his documentaries, and I think, as wonderful as they are, 184 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 3: they do condition you see the natural world in a 185 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 3: certain way. The focus is very much on charismatic species 186 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 3: or species that have some kind of quirk or fascinating behavior, 187 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 3: and I think that we tend to kind of unconsciously 188 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,719 Speaker 3: and buy a sort of value system by which we 189 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 3: judge species on that basis. But actually, what I found 190 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 3: one of the really exciting things about writing a book 191 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 3: like this is that you know the decision of what 192 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 3: goes in this book It wasn't like I just picked 193 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 3: eleven species that fascinated me. It was decided for me. 194 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 3: And what that meant was I had to really kind 195 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 3: of approach species that, like you, I wouldn't necessarily think, Oh, 196 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 3: is this tree going to be interesting? Is this snail 197 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 3: going to kind of interest me personally? And I had 198 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 3: to find other ways of looking at them and find 199 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 3: the fascination and wonder in these species and that tree. 200 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 3: The Saint Lena olive is a particularly fascinating species because 201 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 3: it lived only on a single island in the middle 202 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 3: of the South Atlantic Ocean. And this island, Saint Helena, 203 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 3: is extraordinarily. It's nearly two thousand kilometers west of Africa, 204 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 3: slap bang in the middle of the South Atlantic and 205 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 3: when the it's so remote that when the International Space 206 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 3: Station is circling overhead, the astronauts on board are actually 207 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 3: the closest neighbors to the residents on Saint Helena. 208 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 2: Oh wow. 209 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 3: And remote islands are a very exciting place for biologists 210 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 3: because due to their isolation, species that end up making 211 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 3: it to those islands end up evolving in fascinating ways, 212 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 3: and you end up with these extraordinary ecosystems, and Saint 213 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 3: Nna is one of those examples. You know, there are 214 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,839 Speaker 3: a few species that are capable of making that leap, 215 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 3: you know, crossing thousands of miles of ocean to reach 216 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 3: this tiny island, volcanic island. And what you end up 217 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 3: with in a place like that are things like trees 218 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 3: that have evolved from daisies, you end up with with 219 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 3: with earwigs, you end up with fluorescent wood lice, a 220 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 3: real bizarre kind of hodgepodge. There was a biologist that 221 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 3: I spoke to about the ecosystem who said he described 222 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 3: it as imagine if you just gave evolution another chance, 223 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 3: you just reset evolution on an island and allowed it 224 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 3: to kind of take a different course. This is the 225 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 3: kind of thing you would end up with, just this 226 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 3: kind of alien ecosystem. So, the Saint Lena olive is 227 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 3: a species of hardwood tree, and this family of tree species, 228 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,719 Speaker 3: they all originate in Southern Africa, and they've made these 229 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 3: extraordinary journeys and radiated out Southern Africa and ended up 230 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 3: in islands in the Indian Ocean. And one of the 231 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 3: places they ended up was on Saint Helena, and it 232 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 3: was a mystery that really confounded scientists, because to get 233 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 3: to somewhere like Saint Helena, if you're a tree, your 234 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 3: seeds need to have a way to navigate thousands of 235 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 3: miles of ocean, and there are potential ways they could 236 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 3: do that. They might some seed pods can float, so 237 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 3: they would float there. The Saint Helena olive seed pods 238 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 3: didn't float. In fact, they were sterilized by saltwater and 239 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 3: other ways seas might be carried by the wind. They 240 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 3: wouldn't do that. They were quite large capsules. And the 241 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 3: other way that seeds can disperse is by growing a 242 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 3: fruit and being eaten by birds, same thing that olive 243 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 3: couldn't do any of those things. So the biologists, some 244 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 3: of whom I spoke to you for the book, they 245 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 3: eventually deduced that the way this species had to have 246 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,599 Speaker 3: ended up on this remote island was by a bizarre 247 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 3: chain of coincidences, wherein an albatross or a similar seafaring 248 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 3: bird must have landed somewhere in southern Africa and picked 249 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 3: up a seed in its feathers or maybe in some 250 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 3: mud coating its foot, and then that albatross would have 251 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 3: ranged out over the ocean and eventually ended up at 252 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 3: Saint Helena, and just by chance, this seed had dropped 253 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 3: dropped from the feathers of this albatross, found its way 254 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 3: into the soil and the story of that species on 255 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 3: the island began, which is extraordinary. It's twelve million years old, 256 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 3: and it's so genetically unique that a genus had to 257 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 3: be created for the species. So the genus is the 258 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 3: classification that sits above species. And when you look away 259 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 3: from the charismatic species and species that are more often 260 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 3: kind of celebrated and featured in nature documentaries, you have 261 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 3: to kind of look at species in a different way, 262 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 3: and I think you find incredible stories when you start 263 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 3: to look at the natural world in a different way 264 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 3: and you can find that they're everywhere. 265 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a I just love this idea that it's 266 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: almost like this plant was not supposed to be there. 267 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 2: It's just such an incredible string of events that we 268 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 2: can kind of speculate on that that landed it there. 269 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 2: And I love the quote that you share about how 270 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: rare events happen over geological time. So, yeah, it's unlikely, 271 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 2: but given enough time, things like this do occur. In 272 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 2: this is the result. 273 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, what are the chances. I mean, you know, 274 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 3: it's already just a seed being swept up in the 275 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 3: feathers of an albatross is already you know, it seems 276 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 3: quite an unlikely scenario. But then for it to have 277 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 3: dropped out just at the right place, it's kind of insane. 278 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 3: And that quote that you just mentioned, that was Mike Fay, 279 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 3: who was a geneticist from Q Gardens in the UK, 280 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 3: and Q Gardens did a lot of work to try 281 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 3: and conserve this species. He is, he was, he was 282 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 3: actually he led the attempt to propagate the species in 283 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 3: the end. But yeah, that was an incredible insight from him, 284 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 3: you know, he said, he said to me that, you know, 285 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 3: there were twelve million years for this to happen, and 286 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 3: it only had to happen once. 287 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: But of course another organism eventually came to the island, 288 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 2: and that would be us. This one was sheltered for 289 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 2: quite a while, right. 290 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's one of the it's a double 291 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 3: edged sword. You know, Isolation creates a fascinating breeding ground 292 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 3: for evolution, for interesting species to evolve and adapt. But 293 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 3: by the same token, when you have a species like 294 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 3: humans in the book I talk about how Saint Helena 295 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 3: was almost like a castle. It was fortified against the 296 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 3: outside world. You know, there were so few organisms who 297 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 3: could actually make that trip that the sea kind of 298 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 3: acted almost as a moat. And the arrival of humans 299 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 3: in fifteen oh six was essentially like lowering the drawbridge. 300 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 3: Enabled things like goats, cats, all kinds of invasive species 301 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 3: of plant. Rats are obviously a huge problem pretty much 302 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 3: everywhere they're introduced, and that's what happened on Saint Helena, 303 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 3: and it was an island that in history are it 304 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 3: was discovered, it was compared by many to Eden. It 305 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 3: was this verdant spot in the middle of the ocean 306 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 3: that was really kind of life sustaining for sailors who 307 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 3: at that point in time had to journey all the 308 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 3: way around Africa, around the bottom of Africa in order 309 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 3: to access Asia and India. So it was a really 310 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 3: big problem, you know, fighting off things like scurvy, restocking 311 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 3: with water, and Saint Helena was just this kind of 312 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 3: oasis in the middle of the ocean. But you know, 313 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 3: a few years later it was decimated. 314 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 2: In what led did this decimation, So, I mean. 315 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 3: One thing was the introduction of invasive species. Another thing 316 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,880 Speaker 3: was habitat destruction. So once the island was settled by 317 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 3: the English East India Company, homes had to be built. 318 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 3: Enslaved people were brought to the island in order to 319 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 3: create some kind of economic purpose for the island. That's 320 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 3: how it was viewed as the English East India comp 321 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 3: at the time described places like Saint Helina as factories. 322 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 3: That was their ambition for this place. So everything there 323 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 3: was a resource in order to pursue that aim, and 324 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 3: so massive deforestation things like goats were a particular problem, 325 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 3: eating native vegetation, and once you lose that vegetation, you 326 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 3: then get soil erosion, and there are these crazy reports 327 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 3: of the soil erosion being so bad that the sea 328 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 3: turned black around the island. And once you get into 329 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 3: that state, there's very few things that then can then 330 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 3: kind of grow back and get a foothold in the 331 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 3: soil which has essentially been completely transformed. And in Saint Helena, 332 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 3: all of these threats kind of conspired and the landscape 333 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 3: was transformed and native species shrank further and further back 334 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 3: to the center of the island, which is where the 335 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 3: last Saint Helena olive was found in the nineteen seventies and. 336 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 2: You read about that. Now we just an empty pot, right, 337 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 2: it's labeled as Saint Helena. 338 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 3: Yes, So in Q Garden's Temperate House, which is this fantastic, incredible, 339 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 3: decadent Victorian glasshouse in London and Q there is you know, 340 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 3: species from all over the world there, and then in 341 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 3: one corner there's just this empty terracotta pot, which is 342 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 3: an extraordinary kind of symbol of what could have been. 343 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 2: Now, you mentioned goats and the destructive powers of goats 344 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 2: when they're introduced to places like this, they factor into 345 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 2: at least one of the other extinction stories that you share, 346 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 2: and that is the Pinta Island tortoise of the Galapagos Islands. 347 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 2: This is another far flong island dwelling species, right. 348 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so a lot of these species were island 349 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 3: dwelling species. For the reasons we discussed the Pinter Island tortoise. 350 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 3: It's yeah. The goats that came to Pinter Island were 351 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 3: introduced by fishermen and there were three of them deposited 352 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 3: in the nineteen fifties and that population swelled to two thousands. 353 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 3: In fact, you know, I actually don't off the top 354 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 3: of my head. I can't remember the exact number, but basically, 355 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 3: you know, the goats were far more efficient. If you 356 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 3: imagine a tortoise versus a goat in terms of grazing 357 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 3: and things like that, the torses really were no match. 358 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 3: You know. The Galapagos, because of its isolation, is a 359 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 3: place that you know, there were never things like goats there. 360 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 3: There were never those kind of specially adapted herbivores. And 361 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 3: it's a problem not just for tortoises, but also the 362 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 3: vegetation that tortoises feed on, because if you don't have herbivores, 363 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 3: plants don't learn to adapt to repel herbivores. So things 364 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 3: like thorns, certain kinds of chemical compounds, that all kinds 365 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 3: of adaptation that might make native vegetation resilient to goat. 366 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 3: It just it doesn't have that vegetation doesn't have time 367 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 3: to adapt when you suddenly release something like a goat 368 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 3: on the island. 369 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 2: Now, with the Galapagos tortoises in general, I feel like 370 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 2: these are some amazing creatures that we can They are 371 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 2: often featured in documentaries, the sort of Attenborough documentaries that 372 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 2: we've been discussing in the sort of documentaries that very 373 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 2: much were inspired by that kind of content, which is great, 374 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 2: but we can almost kind of grow numb to them. 375 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 2: I don't know if you've found this to be the 376 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 2: case as well. Like we see the Galapagos tortoises, maybe 377 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 2: if we're lucky we get to see one in the zoo, 378 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 2: or if not, a Galapago's tortoise and maybe an aldabra 379 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 2: tortoise that is in some way similar. But when you 380 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 2: really observe them like they are just so fabulously weird 381 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 2: and wonderful, right they are. 382 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's key. I mean, I think appreciating 383 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 3: nature is it's always about looking a little closer because 384 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 3: I think think you're right with something like a giant tortoise. 385 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 3: You know, we've we've seen that, We've all seen that 386 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 3: many times. We kind of I think we think we 387 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 3: always think we understand the things we've seen many times, 388 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 3: so you know, our brain knows how to categorize that 389 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,239 Speaker 3: so we can kind of just move on. But you know, 390 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 3: like any species, they are really fascinating there. In the 391 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 3: case of the giant tortises of Glapagos, I mean, what 392 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 3: fascinated me the most was how they got there, you know, 393 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 3: which similar to the same thing, not olive. It is another 394 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 3: incredible dispersal story. So something like a tortoise, something that 395 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 3: large and cumbersome and slow traversing an ocean, is just 396 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 3: as unbelievable as a you know, tiny seed. What they've 397 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 3: discovered is that the tortoises or their ancestors must have 398 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 3: been washed out to see from South America, which is 399 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 3: where their most recent ancestor lived, and the tortoises would 400 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 3: have had to have survived for god knows how long, 401 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 3: just on the ocean with no food. And when this 402 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 3: theory was first kind of discussed in the early twentieth century, 403 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 3: it was actually put to the test. And so, you know, 404 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 3: researchers would would take capture giant tortoises, take them into 405 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 3: the ocean, and just drop them into the sea. And 406 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 3: what they would see is that the tortoises were quite 407 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 3: good at swimming, They could float quite easily, they could 408 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 3: keep their heads above water, and gradually, through genetic analysis, 409 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 3: scientists were able to map how the dispersal had taken place, 410 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 3: first from South America to one Galapagos island and then 411 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 3: later to another. So there's just this when you kind 412 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 3: of accelerate time and think of it like a time lapse. 413 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 3: There's just this series of odyssees going from island to 414 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 3: island from the continent, and these tortoises arriving on new islands, 415 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 3: establishing species, growing slightly differently into the different species of 416 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 3: Galapagos trying torsis. It's incredible, but it's it's it's kind 417 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 3: of a less obvious thing. I think it's easy to 418 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 3: just be distracted by the size of these creatures and 419 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 3: for that to be what we associate with them. But 420 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 3: then when you learn about their journeys, it's really it's 421 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 3: fascinating on a different level. 422 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 2: Now, the story of the Pinta Island Glabgirl's tortoise is 423 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 2: also interesting in that it is also a story of rediscovery. 424 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: Could you tell us a little bit about this Some 425 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 2: folks may have probably heard parts of this tale before. 426 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 2: Tell us about Lonesome George. 427 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, so in nineteen seventy two, well, loans from George. 428 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,439 Speaker 3: A lot of people will be familiar with that name because, 429 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 3: you know, he was he was a celebrity animal. You know, 430 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 3: he was he was world famous. He had hundreds of 431 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 3: thousands of people, you know, coming to the Galapagos visiting 432 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 3: him in his enclosure. His species, the Pinter tortoise, which 433 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 3: is the species I write about in Lost Wonders, was 434 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 3: believed to be extinct from the beginning of the twentieth centuries. 435 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 3: I think it was nineteen oh six the California Academy 436 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 3: of Sciences went to Pinter Island and collected what was 437 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 3: ended up being the last known female of the species, 438 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 3: and so for seventy odd years, you know, that was 439 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 3: thought to be the end of that species, until one 440 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 3: day a Hungarian American malacologist and his wife were on holiday. 441 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 3: They were on Pinter Island looking at snails, and suddenly 442 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 3: they looked up and saw this giant tortoise. And they 443 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 3: didn't know what they'd seen at the time, but later 444 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 3: when they spoke two other people who were working in 445 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 3: the archipelago, it soon became clear that this was the 446 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 3: Pinter Island tortoise. You know, this is a species that 447 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 3: everyone had thought disappeared, and that ended up that precipitated 448 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 3: a search, and eventually they found and captured George and 449 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 3: took him to a captive breeding center, hoping that they 450 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 3: would be able to save this species by finding a female, 451 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 3: and he ended up staying there for four decades and 452 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 3: eventually died in twenty twelve. After many many searches, there 453 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 3: were no females found. Attempts to have him mate with 454 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:28,439 Speaker 3: females of closely related species but to no avail. But 455 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 3: the fascinating thing about this story, I mean, there's so 456 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 3: many twists and turns, but the biologists. I spoke to 457 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 3: one of the biologists I spoke to for this about 458 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 3: this species, James Gibbs, he told me this fascinating story 459 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 3: that he and some of his colleagues at the Galapagos Conservancy. 460 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 3: They a few years ago they went on a trip 461 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 3: to a remote island and they discovered that there were 462 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 3: hundreds of Galapagos trying torses of different species living on 463 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 3: the side of this volcano on this incredibly remote island. 464 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 3: And eventually they kind of worked out why this had happened. 465 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 3: And their theory is that whalers who used to use 466 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 3: the Galapagos Islands as basically a meat lader. So whalers 467 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 3: out in the Pacific they would come to the Galapagos 468 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 3: capture tortoises because you know, they were a good food source. 469 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 3: You could keep alive on a boat for weeks, and 470 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 3: there were a big part for the decimation of those species. 471 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 3: But it's thought that they used to gather at this 472 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 3: spot on the side of this remote island, and at 473 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 3: some point they must have thrown over overboard some tortoises, 474 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 3: or they may have escaped, but you ended up with 475 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:42,239 Speaker 3: this isolated population of these different species, and somewhere in 476 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 3: there must have been Pinterer Island tortoises, or at least one, 477 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 3: because James Gibbs and his colleagues found a few years 478 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 3: ago a hybrid tortoise whose mother or father must have 479 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 3: been a Pinter Island tortoise, which is a fascinating prospect. 480 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 3: They haven't found the parent, but it suggests that that 481 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 3: there is or re simply was, you know, a living 482 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 3: Pinter Island tortoise. So this is after George's death, after 483 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,959 Speaker 3: the species had yet again been decloit extinct, and it's 484 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 3: still a possibility. So that's a really interesting, interesting story, 485 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 3: and you know, there is some small hope there. That 486 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 3: same expedition did find another tortoise that was actually an 487 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 3: individual from a species that was also believed extinct, so 488 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 3: they reversed another giant tortoise extinction. 489 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 2: There now, how rare are rediscoveries of previously believed extinct species. 490 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 3: I can't give you any figures off the top of 491 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 3: my head, but it happens more often than you think, 492 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 3: you know there are known kind of it depends on 493 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 3: the species. I mean, some species are fairly easy to monitor. 494 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,719 Speaker 3: Other species, you know, maybe due to their size, due 495 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 3: to where they live, are you know, close to impossible. 496 00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 3: It really does depend But I think sometimes you know 497 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 3: one of the reasons why, there's a little bit of 498 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 3: a disconnect between what biologists will say about the species 499 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,479 Speaker 3: they study in terms of their conservation status and what 500 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 3: the IUCN will say. So sometimes scientists will come out 501 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 3: and say, this species, we believe it's extinct, We've done 502 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 3: this extensive search for it, and we can't find it. 503 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 3: No one's seen it for a decade. But the IUCN 504 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 3: will kind of hold fire because there is always that 505 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 3: possibility that someone will find a remote population or that 506 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 3: this species is especially discrete. So there's very often a 507 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 3: kind of like that, a lagging effect where species aren't 508 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 3: actually declared extinct until we can kind of know with certitude. 509 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 3: But it does happen. Yeah, species are rediscovered. 510 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 2: Now, I'm not going to ask you about every organism 511 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 2: that you govern in the book, obviously, but that I 512 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 2: do want to ask you about one more location and 513 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 2: associated organisms, and that would be the two organisms that 514 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 2: you profile from Christmas Eyeland. This is a place that 515 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 2: I think some of our listeners definitely remember from either 516 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 2: episodes they might have listened to or shows they might 517 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 2: have watched about the Christmas Island crabs. But your selecting 518 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 2: ser of course night crabs remind us a bit about 519 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 2: Christmas Island and what makes its ecosystem so special. 520 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. So Christmas Island is another one of those isolated 521 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 3: islands on which endemic species just really thrive. But it 522 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 3: isn't geographically strictly geographically isolated so much as the ocean 523 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 3: that surrounds it is incredibly deep, so in some places 524 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 3: it's five kilometers deep. You can fit Mount Kilimanjaro in there. 525 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 3: It's also surrounded by strong ocean currents, and the place 526 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 3: where it sits in the world is quite fascinating. It's 527 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 3: it sits on what's called the Wallace line, which is 528 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 3: the border between two biogeographical realms and a biogary graphical 529 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 3: realm is basically it's the border between two places where 530 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 3: radically different species and organisms will live. So the Wallace 531 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 3: Line separates to its west you've got Southeast Asia, You've 532 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 3: got things like monkeys, all sorts of species that live there. 533 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 3: And to its east you've got Australia and you've got 534 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 3: you know, the incredible mussupials and things like that. And 535 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 3: it's separated by this invisible divide, invisible to us anyway. 536 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 3: And so Christmas Island is a hodgepodge of those two 537 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 3: biogeographical realms. And the two species that I wrote about 538 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 3: in Lost Wonders from Christmas Island they're an example of 539 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 3: that because one of them is from the east of 540 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 3: the line and one of them is from the west. 541 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 3: But Christmas Island itself, another reason why it's such a 542 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 3: fascinating place is that it wasn't settled for a long time. 543 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 3: You know, it's quite unique. It was sighted, it was 544 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 3: cited on maps, it was cited by navigators, but no 545 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 3: one really thought there was much point in taking ownership 546 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 3: of Christmas Island. It was a rock covered in rainforest 547 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 3: in the Indian Ocean. It was surrounded by impenetrable cliffs, 548 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 3: very few places to land, so no one really bothered 549 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 3: until the end of the nineteenth century when phosphorus was discovered, sorry, 550 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 3: phosphatic rock was discovered on the ocean floor, and it 551 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 3: was determined that Christmas Island would be a source of 552 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 3: phosphatic rock used to make fertilizer, which was obviously a 553 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 3: huge economic incentive to settle there and colonize it, which 554 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 3: is what happened. And as usual, that brought with it 555 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 3: a raft of invasive species habitat destruction, which really kind 556 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 3: of had the effect you would expect. The two species 557 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 3: that I write about, one of which is the one 558 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 3: of which is the prune sized bat, the Christmas Island 559 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 3: pipistrell that went extinct on my birthday. That was, by 560 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 3: all accounts, are very cute little organism. It had a 561 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 3: tiny quiff, It was the size of a prune, so 562 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 3: it could fit comfortably in your hand. And the forest 563 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 3: skink was a metallic brown skink that was extremely common. 564 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 3: Both these species were extremely common. You know, researchers described, 565 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 3: you know, seeing as many as eighty if the forest 566 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 3: skink basking in the sun on a single log, so 567 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 3: it really was everywhere, and the pipistrell similarly, I think 568 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 3: the first the first population count estimated between five and 569 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 3: ten thousand on quite a small island, and it was 570 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 3: so common that you would islanders would find them fluttering 571 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 3: around inside their homes, you know, hunting insects. There were 572 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 3: accounts of them tumbling into people's people's dinner, you know, 573 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 3: beating soup and suddenly a back crush lands in your 574 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 3: suit bowl. So they really were everywhere, and then in 575 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 3: the late eighties suddenly people noticed that they were starting 576 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 3: to disappear. And essentially what happened is these species disappeared 577 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 3: in the east to west patterns, so from the east 578 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 3: of the islands of the west, they gradually faded out. 579 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 3: And at the same time it was it was realized 580 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 3: that a particularly dangerous and invasive species of snake, the 581 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 3: wolf snake, had been introduced, which is believed to be 582 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 3: the primary cause of both extinctions by the majority of scientists. 583 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 3: There were other things like giants, centerpedes, cats, rats, yellow 584 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 3: crazy ants, which are another you know, they're their own 585 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 3: fascinating phenomenon, but really it's the introduction of the wolf snake, 586 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 3: and you see this correlations fascinating correlation with the retreat 587 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 3: of these two species in the advance of this invasive species. 588 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 2: The wolf snake. That this was an accidental introduction to 589 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 2: the island or was this one of these cases where 590 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 2: an organism was introduced to attempt to solve a particular 591 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 2: problem or anything. 592 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,439 Speaker 3: No, this was an accident and there was a bit 593 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 3: of a problem on Christmas Island. The biosecurity was not 594 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 3: there from what I've heard. But this is a snake 595 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 3: or or a few, and I don't know how many 596 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 3: it would have been, but it could have been one, 597 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 3: or it could have been several that basically snuckerboard a 598 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 3: cargo ship. And this happens a lot. You know, now 599 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 3: that we've kind of connected the isolated parts of the world, 600 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 3: we've we've sort of created a transport network for invasive species, 601 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 3: and that's why biosecurity is so important. But sometimes it's 602 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:30,399 Speaker 3: not followed or it's lacking, and on Christmas Island it Yeah, 603 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,479 Speaker 3: there were there were species that were introduced in this manner, 604 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 3: and the wolf snake is one of them. But it 605 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:39,280 Speaker 3: was it's a specialized skin hunter, but it's it's partial 606 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 3: to bats and things like that. But it, but it's 607 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 3: decimated this species with frightening ferocity. There are three species 608 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 3: in this book that lived in Australian territories. So there 609 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 3: were these two from Christmas Island, and there was another 610 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 3: species called the bramble came melmus, which was a species 611 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 3: of rodent that lived on a sand k in the 612 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 3: Torres Strait, which is which is just north of Australia, 613 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 3: but it's an Australian territory. And all three of these 614 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 3: species really suffered from governmental neglect. There were opportunities to 615 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 3: save them that weren't taken. 616 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 2: You know. 617 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 3: The people that I spoke to who worked with all 618 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 3: three of these species, they in the case of the 619 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 3: Christmas Island species, they'd warned the authorities this species is 620 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 3: going extinct. The skink is a really horrifying example of 621 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 3: that because David James, who was wonderful ecologist who worked 622 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 3: on the island and was essentially in charge of monitoring 623 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 3: basically everything that lived there. You know, he raised the 624 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 3: alarm about this species in two thousand and five and 625 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 3: was ignored. You know, he recommended it be categorized as 626 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 3: threatened in Australia's equivalent of the endangered species List, but 627 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 3: he wasn't listened to, and it was only classified as 628 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 3: threatened four months before the extinction of the species in 629 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 3: twenty fourteen. The reason why I think it's important to 630 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 3: mention that is what's happening right now in America with 631 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 3: the attempts to water down the Endangered Species Act, the 632 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 3: the unleashing potentially of the God Squad, I think is 633 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 3: the name the small body of people who are given 634 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 3: the unique power to override environmental protections even if it 635 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 3: causes an extinction. I think, you know, in the best 636 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 3: of circumstances, you know, politicians are neglect full of environmental issues, 637 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 3: but the situation in America now is just apocalyptic. Sorry 638 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,720 Speaker 3: to get sorry to get depressing, but actually there was something, 639 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,439 Speaker 3: if you don't mind, there was I got in touch 640 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 3: with someone, one of the scientists I spoke to for 641 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 3: this book because I knew I was coming on here 642 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 3: and I wanted to ask him, you know, if he 643 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,720 Speaker 3: had any thoughts and feelings about the current state of things. 644 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 3: You know, and I think it's quite important. So I 645 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,399 Speaker 3: don't know if you'd mind if I read it out. 646 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 3: I was quite sure. 647 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 2: Oh, by all means. 648 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,280 Speaker 3: So here's what he said, this is Chris Martin, who 649 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:27,280 Speaker 3: is an evolutionary biologist who specializes in pupfish. He works 650 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 3: at UC Berkeley, and this is what he had to 651 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 3: say about this. This government is attempting to strip habitat 652 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,399 Speaker 3: protections provided by the Endangered Species Act, among many other 653 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 3: threats and cuts to the federal agencies that protect and 654 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 3: can serve our biodiversity, national parks, and natural spaces. The 655 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,959 Speaker 3: Endangered Species Act was signed by Nixon with strong bipartisan 656 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 3: support and has inspired the world with its successes in 657 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,720 Speaker 3: bringing back so many species from the brink of extinction, 658 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 3: including the old Eagle condor and even the Devil's Whole pupfish, 659 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 3: which was recently rescued from a catastrophic decline this winter 660 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 3: only through a decade long efforts of the US Fish 661 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 3: and Wildlife Service to establish a refuge population. We must 662 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 3: fight to protect everyone in our country and all the 663 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 3: unique species that have made the United States their home 664 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 3: for millennia. He also mentioned to me, obviously, you know 665 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 3: there's a broader context where scientific institutions and universities are 666 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:35,799 Speaker 3: being stripped of funding and there are layoffs, and it 667 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 3: sounds horrendous. As an outsider. It sounds, you know, absolutely 668 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 3: it's a doomsday scenario. But I think it's really important 669 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,400 Speaker 3: that we kind of learn and we understand what happens 670 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 3: when when people stop caring, you know, when governments turn 671 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 3: a blind eye, or when you know, in the case 672 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 3: of the current administration, when they seem to be actively 673 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 3: advocating by diversity loss and things like that. I think 674 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 3: Chris is right. I think now is the time to 675 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 3: fight in whichever way anyone can. I'm probably preaching to 676 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 3: the choir here. I don't know what your listener base 677 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 3: is like, but hearing all of this from Chris, it 678 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 3: really kind of made me sort of realize that the 679 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 3: bypasss and history of the Endangered Species Act and how 680 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 3: you know, I'd heard that from you know. Researching this book, 681 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 3: I've spoken to people who, you know, occupied all kinds 682 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 3: of positions across the political spectrum, but they did believe 683 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 3: in the importance of conserving species and your podcast being 684 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 3: a science podcast. I think, I think, regardless of anyone's 685 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,360 Speaker 3: political affiliations, one thing I think we can all realize 686 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,800 Speaker 3: is that the administration at the moment is profoundly unscientific, 687 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 3: and regardless of how you feel about any other kind 688 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 3: of policies. You know, it's just insanity, absolutely. 689 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,840 Speaker 2: I mean this is you know, not the first guest 690 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 2: this year or too to bring some version of this 691 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 2: issue up. And yeah, in the past there has been 692 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:12,240 Speaker 2: bipartisan support to a large degree to help maintain biodiversity. 693 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 2: I don't think it's something that needs to be a 694 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 2: politicized topic. And yet here we are. So that's right, 695 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 2: you're sharing these starts. 696 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 3: But I do want to add as well, just to 697 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 3: add a little note of hope, because I know, you know, 698 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 3: this must be such a demoralizing situation for many Americans 699 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 3: to be in. One of the people I spoke to 700 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,719 Speaker 3: you for this book was a fantastic ornithologist, a bird 701 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:39,360 Speaker 3: ecologist from Brazil, and he talked to me about what 702 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 3: it was like working under the bolscenario regime, so, you know, 703 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,400 Speaker 3: they had a right wing government. I think it was 704 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 3: around the same time as the Trump first Trump term, 705 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,440 Speaker 3: which was actively pursuing the destruction of the Amazon rainforest. 706 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,320 Speaker 3: And he told me, you know, essentially what happened in 707 00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:00,319 Speaker 3: that time was organizations and conservationists to learn to turn 708 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 3: away from the federal government where they could you know, 709 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 3: things became a lot more localized. You know, local administrations 710 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 3: and local organizations would kind of ban together and try 711 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 3: and solve the problems together, knowing they couldn't they couldn't 712 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 3: rely on their government. And you know, I know that 713 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 3: conservation is as I said earlier, it's full of unstung heroes. 714 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,960 Speaker 3: It's full of everyday heroism. So I really do think 715 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,560 Speaker 3: that people across the country will be doing their best 716 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 3: to kind of to save what they can, and I 717 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 3: think they need our support. So I'd encourage anyone who 718 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 3: who cares about this or feels depressed or demoralized by 719 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 3: it to try and get involved however you can. So 720 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 3: there are very often ways that you can volunteer and 721 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 3: you can help, even small ways. It's more important than 722 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 3: ever now. 723 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well, we recently talked with Mark Undinko, who 724 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 2: runs the Amphibian Foundation here in Atlanta, and that was 725 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 2: one of the things he brought up is in the 726 00:42:55,960 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 2: past they've had to they have leaned on the federal 727 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,839 Speaker 2: agencies for helping some of their research, and a lot 728 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,239 Speaker 2: of that has been going away. And this is just 729 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,279 Speaker 2: one example, you know, a local example for us of 730 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,319 Speaker 2: an organization where people people can now turn and try 731 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,279 Speaker 2: to help support their work if they can't depend on 732 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 2: funding assistance from governmental agencies. 733 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's important to preserve hope. And I think the 734 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 3: situation is incredibly demoralizing, But there are people who are working. 735 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 3: There are people to do the right who are trying 736 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 3: to do the right thing, and I think, you know 737 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:36,719 Speaker 3: where if we can support them where we can, I 738 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 3: think that's a really good thing. 739 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,319 Speaker 2: Well, Tom, thanks for coming on the show to chat 740 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,440 Speaker 2: with me. The book again is Lost Wonders ten Tales 741 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,719 Speaker 2: of Extinction from the twenty first century. 742 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:47,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks so much for having me Rob. It's it's 743 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 3: been a real pleasure, and thank you all for listening. 744 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 2: Thanks once more to Tom for taking time out of 745 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 2: his day to chat with me. Just a reminder that 746 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow your Mind is primarily as Signed and 747 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,920 Speaker 2: culture podcasts with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays and 748 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,320 Speaker 2: on Fridays. We set aside most serious concerns to just 749 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,879 Speaker 2: talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. Thanks 750 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,759 Speaker 2: as always to the excellent JJ Possway for producing the show. 751 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:13,960 Speaker 2: And if you would like to reach out with any questions, 752 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 2: comments or suggestions, you can email us at contact at 753 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:28,000 Speaker 2: stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com. 754 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 755 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,040 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 756 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.