Speaker 1: When it's really, really, really all said and done. You
Speaker 1: do play golf with other people, and you do make
Speaker 1: relationships through golf unlike you would in any other place,
Speaker 1: and you'll carry them around with you for the rest
Speaker 1: of your life, even if you're only pat with that person.
Speaker 1: One time, I got thoughts in my head. Can't get
Speaker 1: Jan Nothing thing what I'm thinking about my head, can't
Speaker 1: get them now, j Nothing thing what I'm thinking about. Hello,
Speaker 1: this is Alan Ship. Now come back for another fire
Speaker 1: drill with a Michael Bamberger, perennial wingman. This we're not
Speaker 1: talking about curt events. We're not talking about live golf.
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about the FedEx Cup. We're talk about
Speaker 1: something that matters more here Michael's new book, The Ball
Speaker 1: in the Air, which comes out this week. I just
Speaker 1: finished reading it. It's an absolute joy. We thought. We
Speaker 1: talked about the book, about the craft of writing, about
Speaker 1: our various obsessions and books and golf and writing. So Michael,
Speaker 1: thanks for doing this, Thanks for having me do this
Speaker 1: with you again. We did it last time when we
Speaker 1: were both in New York and both at Sports Illustrated
Speaker 1: for a book called Men and Green, and we took
Speaker 1: a thirty minute conversation got it down to eight. That's
Speaker 1: probably about the right length. But anyway, Yeah, that was
Speaker 1: that was fun. It's there's two parts of writing a book.
Speaker 1: There's art and there's commerce. You know, the writer controls
Speaker 1: the art, the typing, and then you got to sell
Speaker 1: the book to Michael's a great credit. He doesn't even
Speaker 1: really care about selling the book. I had to talk
Speaker 1: him into doing this, so it's kind of a funny deal.
Speaker 1: But Michael, for those two I would say more accurately,
Speaker 1: you reminded me that it might be useful. Once you
Speaker 1: reminded me that it might be useful, I was all in.
Speaker 1: But I did kind of got about it. And the
Speaker 1: other part was the fire Prollective is very nicely excerpting
Speaker 1: the book as well. That definitely you didn't have to
Speaker 1: sell me on it. But I had forgotten that that, traditionally,
Speaker 1: speaking was a very conventional way to try to get
Speaker 1: people to read a book. And of course I always
Speaker 1: tell people, you know, hopefully your local library will have it.
Speaker 1: I guess you could say that's a passive aggressive way
Speaker 1: of saying, but maybe you'll buy it, But I do
Speaker 1: hope that your public library will have it. But anyway,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a funny business. Um. I never ask
Speaker 1: our mutual editor. We'll talk about him. I'm sure, um,
Speaker 1: how many copies are you're printing? Because that's their thing.
Speaker 1: A more savvy writer than I of course asked that
Speaker 1: question because you can't sell more. But of course I
Speaker 1: would kindle books and electronic books. That's less meaningful than
Speaker 1: it used to be anyhow, like for instance, with Phil
Speaker 1: what was your with your with your with your fill
Speaker 1: sales work percentage was electronic versus hardcover actual book. Okay,
Speaker 1: first of all, this is very clever. If you, Michael,
Speaker 1: now you're asking me questions, I'm a suppos to ask
Speaker 1: you questions. Don't turn this around. This is your time
Speaker 1: to shine. But yeah, that it came in, Yeah it
Speaker 1: came in. I do know how it goes. It came
Speaker 1: in a pretty close to fifty fifty, which is they
Speaker 1: were they were thrilled about because over time, I think
Speaker 1: it traditionally it's almost like seventy thirty now tilting in
Speaker 1: the direction of electronics. But um, I think because golf
Speaker 1: tends to reach possibly an older audience or more traditional audience,
Speaker 1: people still like to hold the book in their hands,
Speaker 1: and so publishers always happy to sell actual books. I'm
Speaker 1: sure they do better on that as from a mark
Speaker 1: you'd think so, I would think they do better off
Speaker 1: the electronic book because there's no paper, no ink. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true. Maybe a better way of putting is, once
Speaker 1: they printed the books, they really want to sell them.
Speaker 1: They're committed, so they because of all the energy around
Speaker 1: Phil they'd printed a lot ahead of time, so they
Speaker 1: were delighted to be selling them. That's yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: good correction on your part. But I'm surprised to hear
Speaker 1: that fifty fifty would have thought that there was so
Speaker 1: much news value. Uh you know in the film book,
Speaker 1: I would thought people, oh, download it now, read it now,
Speaker 1: you know, don't want to wait for the hardcover and
Speaker 1: lug it around. I actually said that because if you
Speaker 1: call that excerpt came out in February and the book
Speaker 1: wasn't released until May. I said to the to the
Speaker 1: publisher or the editor. Uh, remember, I said, why don't
Speaker 1: we just release electronic a version right now? It's like, no,
Speaker 1: we gotta sell the books like we gotta sell the
Speaker 1: paper books. So it's it's a funny industry, but it's
Speaker 1: it's still very old fashioned in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: But all right, what are you doing with your now?
Speaker 1: You got? You got a paperback version coming out here? Yes,
Speaker 1: Michael's supposed to be about you. Yes, the paperback additional
Speaker 1: film comes out May second. There's a very juicy hey, hey,
Speaker 1: can I refer? Can I refer? And I guess get
Speaker 1: filled or write an afterward. I think that's unlikely, but
Speaker 1: it would be amazing. I've actually someone I was at
Speaker 1: the live event in Tucson, and this is crazy. Someone
Speaker 1: was lugging the book around in their backpack. I hope
Speaker 1: I was trying I heard you here. I was hoping
Speaker 1: I'd bumped into you, which actually happened to be also
Speaker 1: in St. Andrews, which is also even more bizarre. But
Speaker 1: so I signed the book, and I told the person,
Speaker 1: this guy who's probably about my ages, that if you
Speaker 1: can get Phil to sign this book and I've signed
Speaker 1: it like that might be one of one and the
Speaker 1: whole universe. I don't think. I don't think Phil's is
Speaker 1: signing too many though, But okay, the ball is in
Speaker 1: the air. It's it's such a charming tale. I have
Speaker 1: my my thoughts about it. But for the person who's
Speaker 1: listening to this podcast, how would you how would you
Speaker 1: describe it? I mean, it's it's an adventure, it's it's personal.
Speaker 1: You get into the lives of different people. But what
Speaker 1: is your elevator pitch out on this book? Wow? Okay? Uh?
Speaker 1: Did you see the gentleman walking by just as I did? Yeah,
Speaker 1: in the in the fact, I'm at the Marriott Courtyard
Speaker 1: in Daytona Beach and that gentleman's in the lobby here,
Speaker 1: and he's definitely I would think a college basketball coach,
Speaker 1: head or otherwise. And the reason I say that is
Speaker 1: because he was talking baskets with somebody and he said,
Speaker 1: what was your mother athletic? That's always a tell. Oh, well,
Speaker 1: I'll take that even further. You know, coaching high school
Speaker 1: girls basketball, the coaches we would scout like the middle
Speaker 1: school moms because if there's a really tall mom, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe the daughter hasn't had a gross spur like that
Speaker 1: would factor into the who's going to make the team?
Speaker 1: How tall is the mom? So all right, so tell
Speaker 1: us about the book, Michael. The elevator picture is that
Speaker 1: I grew up with the phrase and Alan maybe you
Speaker 1: did as well, that golf is the game of a lifetime,
Speaker 1: and like a lot of cliches, it's actually true. And
Speaker 1: so they did here and it really began with our
Speaker 1: mutual editor Jofie Ferrari Adler at Avid Reader Press, which
Speaker 1: is part of Simon and Schuster, that this might be
Speaker 1: a great time to celebrate the amateur game. That's where
Speaker 1: that was the starting point. Jophie says, let's celebrate the
Speaker 1: amateur game in a book. Let's right about the amate
Speaker 1: game in the book. When he says let's write, he
Speaker 1: really means you write a book about That's okay, That's
Speaker 1: how it works. He's got to edit it. So so
Speaker 1: then I started. I started thinking about one of the
Speaker 1: great unique qualities about this amateur game is that you
Speaker 1: can start young and play it right through old age.
Speaker 1: And then the idea developed further as said, well, how
Speaker 1: can you actually express that in story form? And then
Speaker 1: I settled sea to find one golfer who's starting out
Speaker 1: in his or her golfing life, one in the middle
Speaker 1: and one in the end, not the I don't want
Speaker 1: to say the end, but one who has a lifetime
Speaker 1: of experience in the game. And I know you'd be
Speaker 1: going here next Alan, So I'll just jump in and
Speaker 1: say so I I after thinking about it for you know,
Speaker 1: some months, I settled on three. Just think people. One
Speaker 1: is brought Timus Scherpa and some people would know the name.
Speaker 1: Maybe well, some people would definitely know the name because
Speaker 1: she was part of an extraordinary documentary that Tomer Naldi
Speaker 1: produced with his ESPN colleagues. She and that came from
Speaker 1: and he got data to do that from an all
Speaker 1: of her. Har of its story that ran and golf
Speaker 1: died just before that. And she is a woman who
Speaker 1: grew up truly in poverty in a maintenance shed on
Speaker 1: the Royal Nepal Paul Golf Course in Katmandu. Alan, I
Speaker 1: know you've traveled the world. I don't think you've been
Speaker 1: to Nepal. If you have, I've never heard it. I'd
Speaker 1: like to get there. You know, who would even think,
Speaker 1: who would even think there is a nine whole golf
Speaker 1: course there? But there is. And she grew up in
Speaker 1: right on the property and she developed her game to
Speaker 1: a point really with Harves his help, where she could
Speaker 1: play college golf. And she's now a senior at cal
Speaker 1: State LA. She's going to graduate in May. So she
Speaker 1: represents the first chapter of a of a golfing life.
Speaker 1: Our colleague Ryan French UM. But we'll always think him
Speaker 1: as a colleague because he's in the fraternity that we're
Speaker 1: in of sports writers. And everybody who knows the name
Speaker 1: Ryan French knows that he is the Monday Q guy,
Speaker 1: as people would say, and people always say about him.
Speaker 1: And Ryan's life has had a lot of turmoil and
Speaker 1: a lot of difficulty in it, and a lot of
Speaker 1: great moments as well. But at one point his life
Speaker 1: in his thirties was really going in a chaotic direction
Speaker 1: and at the and not overstating it, in a suicidal path.
Speaker 1: And he got his life back on track. And I'm
Speaker 1: not going to say golf saved his life, but golf
Speaker 1: contributed to the saving of his life. And then and
Speaker 1: then I have an eighty eight year old friend, and
Speaker 1: some people will know this name, a man named Sam
Speaker 1: Reeves who grew up in a small town in Georgia. UM,
Speaker 1: grew up in a cotton family, grew up in the
Speaker 1: segregated South, and it was a very good is a
Speaker 1: very good golfer and played a US amateur and life
Speaker 1: has enriched every aspect of his life and exposed him
Speaker 1: to all the things that you and I know, Alan,
Speaker 1: that golf can expose you too, which is people from
Speaker 1: all sorts of backgrounds playing golf in all sorts of
Speaker 1: different places, and golf has enriched every aspect of his life.
Speaker 1: So these three stories get interwoven, are interwoven through the book,
Speaker 1: and that is really the book in a nutshell. But
Speaker 1: I think the reason one, if one is a reader,
Speaker 1: one might write to read the book is that their
Speaker 1: stories are rich and the golfing experience I think for
Speaker 1: anybody who's serious about it, is a rich one. And
Speaker 1: so I hope I don't expect a lot of people
Speaker 1: will find their way to this book. I'm glad that
Speaker 1: you did, Alan, but for those that do, I hope
Speaker 1: they come away feeling like, whether they're golfers or not,
Speaker 1: that yeah, I can see why this game has such
Speaker 1: a hold on people. Yeah, there's a fourth character in
Speaker 1: the book, and of course it's you, because you you
Speaker 1: mix your story in as well, and it's very charming
Speaker 1: to follow your travels and to be along for the
Speaker 1: ride as you revisit uh Macrahanis and some of these
Speaker 1: other places that were part of your own golfing life
Speaker 1: and education and um, and there's others, you know, Lee
Speaker 1: Trevino kind of pops in and out, Butch harm in
Speaker 1: Tiger Woods, Jack Nicholas, There's there's a lot of characters
Speaker 1: that that enrich the whole tale. But what what But
Speaker 1: you know, the common thread is that everyone loves golf.
Speaker 1: Everyone's been touched by it, and it was a delight
Speaker 1: to read it. It's actually been very stormy here in California.
Speaker 1: We have a little sunshine today, but I mostly read
Speaker 1: it uh while uh the windows rattling and I had
Speaker 1: a fire going, and it was it was the perfect
Speaker 1: sort of companion because it the whole book kind of
Speaker 1: gave me a warm and fuzzy feeling because it is
Speaker 1: I mean, there's as you say, there's there's challenges, and
Speaker 1: there's they're suffering in the stories of some of some
Speaker 1: of your protagonists, but uh, there's a hopefulness and like
Speaker 1: an optimism that runs through the book that I found
Speaker 1: very very winning and life affirming. And even if you're
Speaker 1: not a golfer, I think their stories would would would
Speaker 1: touch you. And you know, Sam Reeves, I've been around
Speaker 1: him just a little bit you know where we both
Speaker 1: live in this in this area, and I've heard his
Speaker 1: beautiful his beautiful drawl, and I've seen his his lovely
Speaker 1: golf swing and just the way he carries himself. He's
Speaker 1: just the absolute classic golfing gentleman. And um, but I
Speaker 1: didn't really know his whole tale. And it's you talk
Speaker 1: about a a quintessential American story. I mean, this guy
Speaker 1: came from a kind of average background and had spectacular
Speaker 1: success in business. And but what's what's most oppressive about
Speaker 1: him is the way he lived his life and the
Speaker 1: way he gave back and how much his concern for
Speaker 1: his his his fellow man and intellectual curiosity. I mean
Speaker 1: that that was that was a revelation. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: what would you say about Sam, who's really an all
Speaker 1: time character in this game? Yeah, he really is. He. Uh,
Speaker 1: There's so much I could say about Sam, and I'll
Speaker 1: just try to limit it to the first anchors to
Speaker 1: me to Sam, where you have a person who's serious
Speaker 1: about life. He is a serious person, but he has
Speaker 1: a tremendous sense of fun. He just has a fun
Speaker 1: spirit where he's a member of all sorts of nice clubs,
Speaker 1: one of which is Cypress Point Club down the road
Speaker 1: from where Alan lives, and he lives on the Cypress
Speaker 1: Point Club, of course, right above the eighth Green. And
Speaker 1: we were having lunch at Cypress Point and Kandye Race
Speaker 1: was one table over and she came over and said
Speaker 1: hi to Sam, and she said, Sam, can I visit
Speaker 1: with you? And Sam said, Sam's got one word in
Speaker 1: his vocabulary, absolutely love. He's got a lot of words,
Speaker 1: but this one in particular, and this is how it's
Speaker 1: s U r E. But this is why he says it. Shure.
Speaker 1: He's happy to say yeah, he's there's something I'd like
Speaker 1: to ask it. Sure, So Condie leaves and we leave,
Speaker 1: We get cookies to go for our dessert course. He's
Speaker 1: always on the move. This guy's eighty eight and he's
Speaker 1: always on the move. And then Sam says, I don't
Speaker 1: know what she wants, but the answer is yes. So
Speaker 1: he has that spirit about him. He has a great
Speaker 1: friendship with Fred Couples and Jose Maria Ott the ball
Speaker 1: and as you are alluding to later in life when
Speaker 1: I say later, so one thing that developed in this
Speaker 1: book in through Sam is that he views life is
Speaker 1: let's say zero to thirty thirty to sixty and sixty on.
Speaker 1: And there are different stages in life and different goals
Speaker 1: in those different stages, different ways to think about what
Speaker 1: your role is on this earth in these different stages. Preparation, implementation,
Speaker 1: and valid are the words that he uses for these
Speaker 1: for these three stages. And when he yeah, there's a
Speaker 1: lot to it. And uh, he's an original thinker. And
Speaker 1: in his early this is all like he didn't pick
Speaker 1: this up from doctor Phil. You know, this is him.
Speaker 1: This is how he thinks. And um. Uh. And one
Speaker 1: of the things that he uh discovered in his uh,
Speaker 1: in his in his early sixties was that golf meant.
Speaker 1: He put golf on on the shelf for a while,
Speaker 1: and when he got into his early sixties he sort
Speaker 1: of committed himself to golf again. Uh. And along the
Speaker 1: way he developed two great friends late in life, which
Speaker 1: is not necessarily a common thing. Both happen to be
Speaker 1: golf professionals. And I think you'll know have you'll definitely
Speaker 1: know of and I think you probably knew both men
Speaker 1: and I've known both men. Um, they could not be
Speaker 1: more different. And the two men are butch harmon and
Speaker 1: all our listeners would know the name, Butch Harmon UH
Speaker 1: taught Tiger Woods and and and Davis Love and Greg
Speaker 1: Dorman UH most notably after Tiger UM profane, macho, tough,
Speaker 1: steak eater, always has the need to all out. But
Speaker 1: then his other great friend UH in later life was
Speaker 1: the longtime head professional at Cyper's Point Jim Langley UM.
Speaker 1: Although he was a monster on the basketball coat basketball court,
Speaker 1: he played for UH for cal in the in the
Speaker 1: late fifties. UH and they won a national championship UM
Speaker 1: over Jerry West West Virginior team. But that aside, Did
Speaker 1: you ever know him? Al? Yeah, I had a great
Speaker 1: pleasure of sitting in his office one time and we
Speaker 1: talked for a very long time because he's from Selina's
Speaker 1: as am I and we had that connection and UH
Speaker 1: and it was just Uh, he likes Sam Reeves just
Speaker 1: exuded a gentility and a gentleness and that was I
Speaker 1: can understand why people were so drawn to Jim and
Speaker 1: then still are to Sam, because there's just something almost
Speaker 1: They're down home and they're they're they're comfort comfortable to
Speaker 1: be around, but there's almost a regalness about them that
Speaker 1: is really unique and special. So so here are these
Speaker 1: two two great friends. They developed in his sixties, both
Speaker 1: both professionals. Could not be more different personality. But it
Speaker 1: shows you, it shows you the range of Sam and
Speaker 1: it shows you that in our own relationships, we need
Speaker 1: a range of people in our lives. What was the
Speaker 1: occasion that got you into Langley's office? You know, it's
Speaker 1: it was the first time I played the course. I
Speaker 1: knew his son, Brett, who worked at Pebble Beach. He
Speaker 1: came in after I was a cartboy, but we kind
Speaker 1: of had that connection, and I was talking to him
Speaker 1: and came up that I never played Cyprus. This is
Speaker 1: probably the mid to late nineties. He said, well, he said,
Speaker 1: let me call my dad, and I said okay, And
Speaker 1: so he calls his dad and he said, he said,
Speaker 1: come on over. He wants to talk to you. And so,
Speaker 1: of course I had my clubs in the trunk. I
Speaker 1: wasn't prepared to play or anything, and it just kind
Speaker 1: of fell that way, and so we just we just
Speaker 1: talked and and it's finally and I didn't know I
Speaker 1: was even gonna play. I thought were just gonna have
Speaker 1: this conversation. She said, I want you go and play
Speaker 1: the course. Tell me what you think, I said by myself.
Speaker 1: He's like, oh, I'll get your caddy. And I went
Speaker 1: out and played Cyperus alone first time. It was it
Speaker 1: was pretty special. And wow, um, that's neat. You never
Speaker 1: told me that story. That is really neat. Yeah, yeah
Speaker 1: it was. It was. It was special and and uh,
Speaker 1: he was there when I got done and we chatted
Speaker 1: some more. So that that was my exposure to Jim Langley.
Speaker 1: But that was one thing that that I really moved
Speaker 1: me in the book was that the the connection that
Speaker 1: all these that you know, the protagonists, whether it's it's
Speaker 1: it's Pratt Toma, or it's Sam or it's Ryan, it's
Speaker 1: what makes their lives is the people around them. And
Speaker 1: even though you know the material circumstances of Sam Reeves
Speaker 1: and and Pratt Muster, it could not be any more different,
Speaker 1: like what the connective fiber is, like the love they
Speaker 1: have for their family and how that inspires them and
Speaker 1: they're there's just desired to see the world but also
Speaker 1: to share it with their family and um and of
Speaker 1: course you know you mentioned Ryan's ups and downs, and
Speaker 1: you know it's basically through Stephanie then and his parents
Speaker 1: that he kind of saves himself. And that's what I
Speaker 1: found really moving about the book. And the golf stuff
Speaker 1: was cool, and I learned some new things that I
Speaker 1: enjoyed hearing some of the stories again that I've heard
Speaker 1: from you over dinner, but it was it was the
Speaker 1: personal level of the book and and that that that
Speaker 1: need for connection, that that was super moving to me. Alan,
Speaker 1: that is an incredible insight, um and what you're sharing.
Speaker 1: I was not aware of it while I was writing
Speaker 1: the book, but I've since become aware of it, the
Speaker 1: very thing that you're talking about, and it just kind
Speaker 1: of really dawn to me. When it's really really really
Speaker 1: all said and done, it would be very easy and
Speaker 1: very true to say it gets you outdoors, It gets
Speaker 1: you to compete against yourself. It gets to see if
Speaker 1: you can have this brain to body connection where you
Speaker 1: can send a message, you get that golf ball to
Speaker 1: do what you want to do. It explores every facet
Speaker 1: of really the human experience pretty much. But when it's really,
Speaker 1: really really all said and done, you do play golf
Speaker 1: with other people, and you do make relationships through golf
Speaker 1: unlike you would in any other place, and you'll carry
Speaker 1: them around with you for the rest of your life,
Speaker 1: even if you're only play with that person one time.
Speaker 1: I don't know why that thought didn't really accredit me
Speaker 1: while I was writing it, But what you just said
Speaker 1: is exactly what I believe. It really, really, really is
Speaker 1: about relationships. So like, even if you look at and
Speaker 1: let's not do a whole thing here unless you want to,
Speaker 1: if you look at Wor's supporting the USGA in this
Speaker 1: ball effort that they're talking about, I can see the
Speaker 1: fingerprints on it. Um his relationship with Fred Ridley, a
Speaker 1: former USGA president, with Fred Purpaul, the current USJA president,
Speaker 1: with Jimmy Dunn, a new PGA tour board member, Um
Speaker 1: all his dad, of course, all these elders that are
Speaker 1: in his life. Tiger, of course that he thinks for himself.
Speaker 1: But he's but like any person, especially an intelligent person
Speaker 1: like Worry, he's taking in information all the time. But
Speaker 1: part of taking information is trusting the source. And you
Speaker 1: trust the source when you have a relationship with him.
Speaker 1: And these relationships come out of golf. And just to
Speaker 1: finish that one, the one thing I explore in the
Speaker 1: book is that for whatever reason, I'm born in nineteen sixty,
Speaker 1: I have a lot. My wife, Christine, is born in
Speaker 1: eighteen sixty. I have a lot of great friends who
Speaker 1: were born in nineteen sixty, sixty one, fifty nine. That
Speaker 1: we've been on this earth literally that you know, the
Speaker 1: same amount of time. And it's not just like, oh,
Speaker 1: do you remember the Mannix episode where blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: It's much more. It is a little bit of that,
Speaker 1: but it's much more than that. And something that comes
Speaker 1: to mind is I played at macrahanas you mentioned it
Speaker 1: before with this summer with a man named Tommy Blue.
Speaker 1: Tommy Blue, like me, was born in nineteen sixty didn't
Speaker 1: have the benefit you know, went to high school and
Speaker 1: then and then went to work as a roofer on
Speaker 1: the Mull of Kintyre, southwestern coast of Scotland. Played on
Speaker 1: Paul McCartney's hit The Mule of Kintire when he was
Speaker 1: a kid. He played the kettle drum on or played
Speaker 1: the drum on it. And we were together for one
Speaker 1: three hour period and we were comparing notes on marriage
Speaker 1: and health and raising kids and golf. We met one time,
Speaker 1: we had one round of golf. We may never meet again.
Speaker 1: I hope we do, but we may never meet again.
Speaker 1: And I guarantee, I can't quote guarantee that, miss silly.
Speaker 1: I just know that the round enriched me, I would
Speaker 1: say forever, actually, And I don't know what other sport
Speaker 1: could do that. So what you said Alan about relationships
Speaker 1: is exactly what I feel. But and you wrote about
Speaker 1: that round and it made me smile because I on
Speaker 1: your recommendation, I went to Macahonist and like the nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety seven or ninety eight, and I just I just
Speaker 1: rocked up on the first tea and I got paired
Speaker 1: with a couple of local guys and they were a
Speaker 1: total delight and they invited me to dinner afterwards, and
Speaker 1: and we had a whole connection, And yeah, it is it.
Speaker 1: Golf is unique that way. And I'm not as adventuresome
Speaker 1: as you are, like I when I'm traveling, I often,
Speaker 1: not often, I sometimes get invited to play really nice
Speaker 1: places with total strangers. I did you know. The invitations
Speaker 1: come through social media and I almost never do it,
Speaker 1: Like I really just want to play golf with my friends,
Speaker 1: like and because I don't get to play that much
Speaker 1: and it's kind of a special thing for me, so
Speaker 1: I don't play by myself like the most fundamental thing
Speaker 1: about golf. To me, it's not the swing, it's not
Speaker 1: making putts, it's just being with people that I love
Speaker 1: and so um it's I've I definitely felt that in
Speaker 1: reading the book, because there's there's so much love in
Speaker 1: the book, not only from the protagonist, but it's it's
Speaker 1: your love affair with the game. It's the the esteem
Speaker 1: you hold the characters. It's uh, you know, you talking
Speaker 1: about your honeymoon with Christine. The reader's kind of along
Speaker 1: for the journey, Like I would say, the book is
Speaker 1: sort of about golf, but it's mostly about like, it's
Speaker 1: like a love story in a lot of ways, and
Speaker 1: I think that's why I was. I was so charmed
Speaker 1: by it. That's neat. Oh yeah, we can end it
Speaker 1: right there if you wish. It would be absolutely fine
Speaker 1: with me because that's lovely. Okay, well, okay, sure, but
Speaker 1: let me just ask you one thing, because you reference
Speaker 1: our conversation men in Green a lot has changed in
Speaker 1: in our in our typing lives and in the world.
Speaker 1: And do we write the Swinger before or after that?
Speaker 1: Let me think here, it was well before yeah, that's yeah,
Speaker 1: that was like two thousand. Well, if you if you're
Speaker 1: not so well, But I remember asking this question. We
Speaker 1: talked about, like why do books even matter anymore? Because
Speaker 1: you know, my kids are teenagers were talking about on
Speaker 1: different podcasts that they love to read books, but almost
Speaker 1: none of their friends do. I mean, everything's on the phone,
Speaker 1: and you know, I look, I look around. There's it's
Speaker 1: it's not the there's just not the number it used
Speaker 1: to be. Feeling like there was a dozen golf books
Speaker 1: that came out every year. Now you get two or
Speaker 1: three or four if that. And I don't are we dinosaurs?
Speaker 1: Like why are we still doing this? Like you and
Speaker 1: I both love to write books, but but why I
Speaker 1: don't know. And and you said this when we were
Speaker 1: doing that last time. We were talking about Ben and
Speaker 1: grind some well, getting on ten years ago, down it's
Speaker 1: a grind writing a book as a grind, I will
Speaker 1: say this book and you and I shared this, Well,
Speaker 1: this book was not a grind to write. And I've
Speaker 1: had that experience at your time. When you and I
Speaker 1: wrote The Swinger, it wasn't a grind. When I wrote
Speaker 1: to the links Land, it wasn't a grind. Men and
Speaker 1: Green wasn't a grind. The Tiger book was a grind.
Speaker 1: I mean I could go right through it. I wrote
Speaker 1: a book about the film director M. A. Shamalan. It
Speaker 1: was a grind. It's a grind to write a book.
Speaker 1: But I would say, you know you and I've written
Speaker 1: literally thousands of short, medium and long magazine pieces and
Speaker 1: now for the Internet, and of course you done a
Speaker 1: lot of podcasting. But when I think back to my
Speaker 1: writing life, the thing that gives me the greatest pride
Speaker 1: and satisfaction are the books. And I think you have
Speaker 1: to be very aware that it's a very egotistical proposition
Speaker 1: to say I'm asking you to spend you know, the
Speaker 1: time it's going to take you to read a two
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty page whatever it is book. You know,
Speaker 1: some people are read in three hours, but most of
Speaker 1: people it's gonna take longer than that. But part of
Speaker 1: the part of the contract is, but I'm telling I
Speaker 1: worked hard enough on this book that I think it's
Speaker 1: going to be worth your time. And that's a great
Speaker 1: feeling to know that you have the confidence to feel that,
Speaker 1: to actually believe that. And I find that very satisfying.
Speaker 1: And then and I know you have this experience too.
Speaker 1: The full circle of you have an idea in your head,
Speaker 1: you're ported out, you're write it up, the book goes out,
Speaker 1: people respond to it, the response comes back to you.
Speaker 1: There's almost nothing in life. I can't really think of
Speaker 1: anything in life like it. And I've had a correspondence now,
Speaker 1: going back to the mid eighties with literally thousands and
Speaker 1: thousands of readers, some of whom I only hear. Many
Speaker 1: of them I only hear from once. But it's just
Speaker 1: a great feeling to know that whatever it is I
Speaker 1: tried to experience it, get down on a piece of paper,
Speaker 1: whatever form the paper takes these days, resonated with somebody.
Speaker 1: It's a great feeling. Actually, I would say I have
Speaker 1: almost I mean, so I would have a need to
Speaker 1: have that connection with people. It's a differ, very different
Speaker 1: kind of relationship than what we were talking about before,
Speaker 1: but it also is very much relationship, whether you hear
Speaker 1: from the people or not, because that relationship starts with
Speaker 1: the idea of bringing this book out and into into
Speaker 1: the world and what you're saying about yourself and the
Speaker 1: process of doing that, but at the same time being really,
Speaker 1: really really aware of the person on the other end
Speaker 1: and what they are mayor may not get out of it. Yeah, oh,
Speaker 1: now we get end the podcast us. No. No, I
Speaker 1: think it's fundamental because the people who pick up this book,
Speaker 1: I mean, there's parts of you on every page in
Speaker 1: some ways, and I think it's nice to them to
Speaker 1: know how much you care and how much you've invested
Speaker 1: in it, because there are plenty of books that get
Speaker 1: written fast and they're they're um, you know, they're driven
Speaker 1: by market forces. But this was obviously a labor of love,
Speaker 1: and in some ways it's it's forty years in the making.
Speaker 1: I mean, you talk about when you're caddying in your
Speaker 1: caddy days, going back to the eighties, and there's there's
Speaker 1: a lifetime of golf experiences on these pages. And so
Speaker 1: I think that's why it means so much too, because
Speaker 1: it's your life in one place. I mean, we're literally
Speaker 1: on our honeymoon with you on your honeymoon together. Like
Speaker 1: it's that's that's neat that that yes, that you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, things happen in the seventies that
Speaker 1: made me fall for this game, and and I hadn't
Speaker 1: thought about them at all until writing this book. Like, um,
Speaker 1: I went to a large public high school in Suffolk
Speaker 1: County on Long Island. Uh, you know, it was a
Speaker 1: different era. We three or four of us would sit
Speaker 1: in the in the flatbed truck of Bill Sweeney's struck
Speaker 1: going from the high school to the public course. We
Speaker 1: were playing our practice rounds. We went through this semi
Speaker 1: rural African American ar biborhood. They Sweeney stops the truck
Speaker 1: one day and says, going to the Delhi. It's an
Speaker 1: African American Dela going to the Delhi. And you know,
Speaker 1: get me a jar pig speed. You know. They know
Speaker 1: I'm the only kosher kid on the golf team. You know,
Speaker 1: but just like weird, fun, happy odd stuff of life
Speaker 1: that you take that lingers with you forever. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it would be literally forty plus, you know, getting on,
Speaker 1: getting on, I mean for me years in the making. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: because I mean you go back to earliest days in
Speaker 1: golf and the high school. Reminiscences are cute and like
Speaker 1: it's a journey. I mean, of course, I've read all
Speaker 1: of your books. I love them all, and some of these,
Speaker 1: some of these there's yeah, of course there's I've in
Speaker 1: other places I've read a little bit about this or that,
Speaker 1: but it's neat to have it all in one place.
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like, I know you're not done,
Speaker 1: You've got You've got plenty more in you. But I
Speaker 1: feel like this book captured a golfing life and a
Speaker 1: really equay and it wasn't just yours, it was it
Speaker 1: was a bunch of them. But you know, you're the
Speaker 1: three line, so that's off. It's a great read. Thank
Speaker 1: you for your enthusiasm for my typing life. It's great
Speaker 1: to know I've got at least one reader I've kind
Speaker 1: of leave. I find it useful to think about one reader.
Speaker 1: And I often think about Jophie or editor, because he's
Speaker 1: a very sophisticated reader and a very savvy golf person,
Speaker 1: and it's like, is he gonna get it? I've always
Speaker 1: had that like sort of one person in mind, is
Speaker 1: he or she? Like I would often think about my mom,
Speaker 1: who nothing about golf. And I remember, this is getting
Speaker 1: really off topic here, but I remember once reading a
Speaker 1: letter to the editor of The Times. It was about
Speaker 1: and the woman was complaining about the sports section coverage,
Speaker 1: and she wrote, do you realize that in this story
Speaker 1: you never said what sport you're talking about? And I
Speaker 1: remember once being out of public course and it was
Speaker 1: a it was a public course outside of Baltimore, and
Speaker 1: it was a teacher teaching absolute beginners. And the question was,
Speaker 1: how do you tell the difference between a six iron
Speaker 1: and a nine iron? And the guy said, very patiently,
Speaker 1: well to nine. They put a little mine underneath it
Speaker 1: and that means nine six. But it's a great question
Speaker 1: you have to it is a great question. You have
Speaker 1: to allow for the reader's experience. And that's why so
Speaker 1: that that's the meeting of the minds between well, it's
Speaker 1: all a meeting of the minds. But anyway, I don't
Speaker 1: know where that I was going with that. Thank you
Speaker 1: for all this O. Yeah, I look forward to doing
Speaker 1: this with your When When when is your live book
Speaker 1: coming out? Early November? I'm sorry we have settled on
Speaker 1: an exact date, but right around November first, I mean,
Speaker 1: speaking of grinds, it would have been nice to have
Speaker 1: a little more time. But in fact, I'm happy that
Speaker 1: I have this deadline because I could work on this
Speaker 1: book forever. I mean, it's um it's it's so rich
Speaker 1: and there's so many layers to it. And I did
Speaker 1: three phone interview today that we're just out of control.
Speaker 1: And I feel like the book got seven percent better
Speaker 1: than one day. It's just like I'm constantly learning things
Speaker 1: and and and one person turns me onto something else
Speaker 1: and I go down these different rabbit holes. So it's
Speaker 1: an utterly fascinating project. But um, that book it Live
Speaker 1: is a lip Live is a litmus test for personality disorder.
Speaker 1: It will reveal, it will reveal everything you think about
Speaker 1: the human condition. Live is a fascination onto itself. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well you don't you know, yeah, go ahead, yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: And it pops up in your book here and there,
Speaker 1: and I enjoy your your sort of disdain like and
Speaker 1: you're you're not not even for Live in general, but
Speaker 1: just like, like like, this is not the golf that I
Speaker 1: care about. I care about playing with my friends. I
Speaker 1: care about the soul of the game, you know, the
Speaker 1: people who are who are obsessed with a golf and
Speaker 1: and it made me laugh a few of your little,
Speaker 1: your little commentaries. But yeah, it's yeah, I think. And
Speaker 1: and just to just to finish that thought, uh, from
Speaker 1: my end, I love professional golf and and I think
Speaker 1: the professional golfers should make what they can make, of course,
Speaker 1: but I think a professional golf at some level, not
Speaker 1: at every level, should be above the fray and should
Speaker 1: have a certain element of grace to it and not
Speaker 1: appear to be grubby and right now, as it has
Speaker 1: been said, on both sides, there are fine people on
Speaker 1: both sides, of course, but there's a lot of money
Speaker 1: grubbing going on on both sides, and I do find that.
Speaker 1: Just say, but talent but as our as our former
Speaker 1: editor of Mark Mulvey used to say, talent must be paid,
Speaker 1: I do believe talent must be but there's still that within. Really.
Speaker 1: Look if some if Jophy would have said, yeah, well
Speaker 1: I want you to write a book about you know,
Speaker 1: amateur golf, and I want to pay you five billion
Speaker 1: dollars for I would say, please don't because I don't
Speaker 1: want that pressure. One and two you'll go out of business.
Speaker 1: So it's just not it will never make any money
Speaker 1: like that period impossible. Uh so don't. Or I would
Speaker 1: say no, uh you know never. This is crazy. This
Speaker 1: is part of your charm though, because most people would say, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll take five million dollars and I'll write the book
Speaker 1: I want to write anyway, But you're it's it's a
Speaker 1: man's got to have a code to quote the wire,
Speaker 1: and you have a code, Michael, and that's that's one
Speaker 1: of the things we appreciate about you. So all right, Well,
Speaker 1: the book is the Ball in the Air. Oh it
Speaker 1: was great fun and as Michael alluded to, um there
Speaker 1: is a an excerpt on fire picklet dot com will
Speaker 1: give you a little taste of it, but just a
Speaker 1: little one. It's I think sometimes when you when you
Speaker 1: watch a preview of a movie, after ninety seconds, you
Speaker 1: feel like you've seen the whole movie. But this book's
Speaker 1: scene always we go to a lot of movies. Christine
Speaker 1: always says, I just saw the whole exactly, but we
Speaker 1: we we come in late after the trailers just for
Speaker 1: that reason they give away way to do. But in
Speaker 1: this case, have you seen this new Friary Brothers movie
Speaker 1: about the coach with the with the kids with the differences. No,
Speaker 1: but I've heard it's good. What do you think I'd
Speaker 1: like to see it, But they gave away so much
Speaker 1: in the trailer. But I still want to see it
Speaker 1: because it's yeah, you know, Woody Harrelson, it's I know, yeah, No,
Speaker 1: I'm interested as well. But the point I've been trying
Speaker 1: to make you keep interrupting the Michael is that this excerpt,
Speaker 1: while very while very charming and fun to read, only
Speaker 1: hints at the depth of this book. So enjoy the excerpt,
Speaker 1: enjoy this podcast, but I would implore you to read
Speaker 1: the actual book because there's so much there, and I
Speaker 1: think anyone who loves golf, loves writing, loves the human condition. Well,
Speaker 1: we'll take a lot out of this. So without embarrassing
Speaker 1: Michael any further, we're gonna we are now actually going
Speaker 1: to end this podcast. But thanks for timeing Mike, thank
Speaker 1: you and thanks for listening, and thank you all. It's
Speaker 1: another podcast and we'll keep we'll keep at it. That's
Speaker 1: the end. Thanks. Yeah, I played the win, made a
Speaker 1: fortune with my shot game. Man, I run the table.
Speaker 1: Never thought I could fall down. The wintertime hit me
Speaker 1: like a cannon. The ball and now I can't shake this,
Speaker 1: losing the streak. Every road I take is a dead
Speaker 1: end stream. I got thoughts in my head, can't get
Speaker 1: them out, trying not to think what I'm thinking about.
Speaker 1: I got thoughts in my head. I can't get them out,
Speaker 1: trying not to think what I'm thinking about.