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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 2: This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,

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Speaker 2: and speaker.

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Speaker 3: And this is Sarah hart Hunger. I'm a mother of three,

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Speaker 3: a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are

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Speaker 3: two working parents who love our careers and our families.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 2: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family,

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Speaker 2: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping

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Speaker 2: out long term career goals. We want you to get

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Speaker 2: the most out of life.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. In

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Speaker 1: today's episode, I am going to be interviewing Devora Heidner,

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Speaker 1: who is the author of two fascinating books. First the

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Speaker 1: book screen Wise, which is out and everyone should go

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Speaker 1: check out about how we interact with screens these days

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Speaker 1: and particularly young people. And the second book, which will

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Speaker 1: actually be out this fall, is called Growing Up in Public,

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Speaker 1: and it's about how young people are now navigating this

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Speaker 1: world where everything you do can exist forever, can be

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Speaker 1: shared broadly with the universe, and how that affects both

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Speaker 1: how they navigate the transition to adulthood and how we

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Speaker 1: as parents can help them with this. So Growing Up

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Speaker 1: in Public is not out until September. I got an

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Speaker 1: early glance at it, which I was really grateful for.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much, de Vora.

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Speaker 5: We'll mention it again in September so everyone can go

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Speaker 5: out and get it, though obviously you can put in

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Speaker 5: a pre order if you would like right now, because

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Speaker 5: you are going to definitely want to read this when

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Speaker 5: it comes out if you have teens or young adults

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Speaker 5: in your life, tweens who are about to become teens

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Speaker 5: that are dealing with this phenomenon.

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Speaker 4: So, Sarah, I was kind of grateful that I did

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Speaker 4: not grow up in public. I grew up in some

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Speaker 4: pretty reasonable obscurity and you know Nowhere'sville, Indiana.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just very interesting to think about the role

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Speaker 3: that like photographs kind of took in our lives and

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Speaker 3: how much that has changed. You could get ready for

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Speaker 3: the school dance and get those pictures taken, but there

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Speaker 3: was no expectation that anybody else was going to see them.

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Speaker 3: Probably allowed kids to maybe be a little bit less

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Speaker 3: curated or more uninhibited around the camera, perhaps because they

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Speaker 3: felt like that was just going to be for family consumption.

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Speaker 3: And I have to admit I'm glad my awkward middle

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Speaker 3: school years are not like posted everywhere, although people curate

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Speaker 3: their own images, right, So had I been in middle schooler,

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Speaker 3: I would have probably only chose the most flattering shot.

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Speaker 1: I had taken little.

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Speaker 5: To choose the flattering ones back then, and there were

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Speaker 5: no filters to make you look better either. I mean,

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Speaker 5: it's just sort of I remember there were like businesses

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Speaker 5: at the mall where you could go take the glamour shots, right,

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Speaker 5: because you didn't have the ability to do this on

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Speaker 5: your own.

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Speaker 4: It's sort of funny.

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Speaker 5: This came up for me recently because a Facebook friend

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Speaker 5: was posting some photos from our high school experience and

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Speaker 5: there was a really funny one of me from the

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Speaker 5: flag team. But I remember that photo being taken in

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Speaker 5: the same way I remember a lot of the photos

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Speaker 5: that exist from high school being taken because they just

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Speaker 5: weren't that many taken, right. It was only certain occasions

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Speaker 5: you were definitely posing for them. Somebody had to get

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Speaker 5: out the camera. It was a different sort of thing.

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Speaker 5: And so when I see that, it's not like one

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Speaker 5: of a million, it's one of a handful that we're

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Speaker 5: taken and would have lasted.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, it's a very different experience. It really is

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Speaker 4: our kids.

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Speaker 3: It's a challenge for them, but they do have again,

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Speaker 3: perhaps more tools at their disposal as well.

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Speaker 4: Super interesting, super interesting, and it's an interesting interview. So

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Speaker 4: I really hope people listen to it.

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Speaker 5: And yeah, so here's Devorah Heidner talking about being screenwise

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Speaker 5: and about growing up in public. Well, Sarah and I

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Speaker 5: are delighted to welcome Devora Heightner to the program. So Devora,

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Speaker 5: can you introduce yourself to our listeners?

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Speaker 4: Sure? I am Heightener and I wrote a book called Screenwise,

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Speaker 4: helping kids thrive and survive in their digital world, and

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Speaker 4: recently finished a book called Growing Up in Public, which

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Speaker 4: will be out soon. And both books are about helping

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Speaker 4: kids thrive in the digital age. And growing up in

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Speaker 4: public is kind of like in response to the question

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Speaker 4: people would always ask when I speak about kids and screens,

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Speaker 4: which is like, Devora, this is great, this is so empowering,

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Speaker 4: this is awesome. But I'm so glad my middle school

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Speaker 4: years and my high school years and my college years

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Speaker 4: are not public and shared. And every thought, every hairdow,

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Speaker 4: every dumb thought that I had, everything that I tried

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Speaker 4: isn't like out in the world. So how am I

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Speaker 4: supposed to help my kid with that? Devora? Like I

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Speaker 4: hear you on balance and all that. That's great, but like,

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Speaker 4: how am I supposed to deal with this digital footprint stuff?

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Speaker 4: Because this is ridiculous?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, Well, maybe you could talk a little bit that.

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Speaker 5: I mean, what does it mean to grow up in public?

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Speaker 5: I mean, how is life fundamentally different for you know,

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Speaker 5: kids now, for teens, tweens, young adults versus when you know,

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Speaker 5: you and I were kids.

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Speaker 4: It's really a lot to manage. I mean, one of

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Speaker 4: the things that kids can do now is quantify their following.

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Speaker 4: You know, you can see how many YouTube or TikTok

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Speaker 4: followers or how many people are you're connected to you

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Speaker 4: on Snapchat or Instagram. And I think as parents we

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Speaker 4: want to help kids think about the quality of their

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Speaker 4: relationships and not just the quantity. So that's a big difference. Obviously,

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Speaker 4: when I was a nerdy middle schooler, I could see

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Speaker 4: that my lunch table wasn't the most popular lunch table.

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Speaker 4: And I could see that I had three friends, and

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Speaker 4: I knew I wasn't going to parties every weekend, but

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Speaker 4: I didn't have to actually walk around with that number

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Speaker 4: like emblazoned on my shirt, you know, like three to Foura.

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Speaker 4: How many friends does she have? Three? Oh? Really? How

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Speaker 4: many friends? Was that? Oh? Yeah? Three? Right? And so

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Speaker 4: I think now kids are really in this place of

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Speaker 4: like even your nine or ten year old can see like, oh,

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Speaker 4: this this YouTube or that I follow, you know, has

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Speaker 4: this many followers, or this street gaming streamer or this

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Speaker 4: TikToker right, or this twitch person on Twitch. And I

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Speaker 4: think that's a lot to navigate for kids. And I

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Speaker 4: also think the idea that they're publicly searchable and we

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Speaker 4: use that, I think in unfortunate ways. I mean, one

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Speaker 4: of the biggest things I learned in writing growing up

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Speaker 4: in public and I was already kind of on my

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Speaker 4: way in this direction, but is that we should be

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Speaker 4: focusing on character and not consequences, and not threatening our

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Speaker 4: kids like, oh, you won't get into Princeton or Stanford

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Speaker 4: if you post that, but really talking with them about

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Speaker 4: who are you and what does that look like in

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Speaker 4: your digital interactions, and not talking about again, if you

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Speaker 4: post that, you know you won't get into Princeton, because

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Speaker 4: when we say that to kids, we're actually saying to them,

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Speaker 4: don't get caught, which is not the message we really

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Speaker 4: want to be giving kids. It's not we don't want

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Speaker 4: to tell them don't get caught with the xenophobic meme

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Speaker 4: or the offensive tweet, right. We actually want to be saying,

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Speaker 4: think about who you are and how your online presence

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Speaker 4: reflects that. And that's a very different conversation than don't

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Speaker 4: get caught right. And So I think when we emphasize

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Speaker 4: the consequences of what might happen as opposed to the

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Speaker 4: harm can cause when we share things that are harmful,

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Speaker 4: that we're moving in the wrong direction with our kids.

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Speaker 4: But I think that we're so scared, and I think

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Speaker 4: parents and educators are truly having those fear based conversations

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Speaker 4: with kids about reputation out of fear and out of

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Speaker 4: what we've seen happen with adults, and maybe even in

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Speaker 4: our own workplace, like maybe you work in a position

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Speaker 4: where you hire and you've seen someone get danged for

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Speaker 4: something in their digital profile and it can terrify us.

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Speaker 4: So I do think our kids are growing up in

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Speaker 4: public and we have to level with them about that.

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Speaker 4: But I also think we can do things, as both

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Speaker 4: parents and people in the workplace to push back on

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Speaker 4: some of those things, and especially as we're hiring you know,

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Speaker 4: college grads, recognizing that everyone's going to have a digital

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Speaker 4: footprint and it's often going to be one that they

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Speaker 4: created without the foresight into their career, especially when we

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Speaker 4: think about college or pre college, and that we have

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Speaker 4: to recognize our common humanity in that and not look

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Speaker 4: for things necessarily that are about you know, out there

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Speaker 4: to be out there to take people down. And we

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Speaker 4: have to talk to our kids about again being good

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Speaker 4: people and good human beings and thinking in that way

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Speaker 4: as opposed to worrying about getting caught, because I think

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Speaker 4: once we go to the consequences, we're already talking about

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Speaker 4: the wrong things.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's funny to ponder how many people probably have

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Speaker 5: college experiences that just wouldn't have survived the advent of

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Speaker 5: constant photography and the ability to share stuff with the

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Speaker 5: world pretty much instantly. Probably many people who did go

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Speaker 5: to those colleges that you are mentioning in there. But

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Speaker 5: a lot of people who are listening to this are parents,

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Speaker 5: And I'm curious a couple of things, like how do

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Speaker 5: children wind up behaving differently because they know they are

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Speaker 5: growing up in public?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 5: Like what are you seeings sort of some of the

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Speaker 5: changes in how children behave in this universe.

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Speaker 4: Well, one of the things that's happening is kids. Some

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Speaker 4: kids will ask to be posted on your social media

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Speaker 4: and we'll want to see how many likes they have.

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Speaker 4: And that might happen because you post something and then

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Speaker 4: you show them, look how many people like your gymnastics routine,

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Speaker 4: you know, and then you show that to them, and

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Speaker 4: then they get excited about it, and then there's other

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Speaker 4: responses too. Some kids are become much more private. I'm

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Speaker 4: not allowed to share my kid on social When you

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Speaker 4: go to my Instagram, you might be like, wait, she

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Speaker 4: has a kid, because I'm not allowed to share him.

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Speaker 4: So it's been a long time since I've been allowed

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Speaker 4: to do that. And he knows I've been writing a

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Speaker 4: book about privacy and reputation, so I'd be very busted

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Speaker 4: if I shared without permission. So the things we want

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Speaker 4: to do in regard to that when our kids are

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Speaker 4: little is start asking before we share their picture and

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Speaker 4: really be good about observing that boundary with them, because

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Speaker 4: that teaches them that it's something we do. We ask

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Speaker 4: people before we share their image or their stories or

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Speaker 4: news about them, and that it teaches them it's okay

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Speaker 4: to say no to a share. The flip side is

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Speaker 4: the kid who wants to be shared on your social

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Speaker 4: I would be mindful of doing that too often. I

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Speaker 4: think it could be fun. You know, maybe like you

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Speaker 4: could do it for the holidays, or you know, if

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Speaker 4: you're a digital holiday card person versus a card in

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Speaker 4: the mail person or something. But I wouldn't go overboard

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Speaker 4: with like the like ca because we know that some

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Speaker 4: kids are going to be really vulnerable in that direction

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Speaker 4: and they're going to want and seek that feedback. And truly,

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Speaker 4: the like button gets us where we're the most humans.

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Speaker 4: So we want to make sure that I'm not throwing

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Speaker 4: kids under the bus and saying, oh, they want likes

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Speaker 4: like I want likes two and I post I want

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Speaker 4: that response as well. We all, I think, want to

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Speaker 4: be regarded and noticed when we share things, whether it's

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Speaker 4: online or in person. But I think we don't want

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Speaker 4: to set our kids up to be counting their likes

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Speaker 4: when they're seven or nine or eleven, because then when

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Speaker 4: they get on social that's going to become a measure

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Speaker 4: that maybe we're communicating to them is important. Instead, I

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Speaker 4: think we want to communicate. What's important is reciprocity and

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Speaker 4: relationships showing up for friends, right, The number of friends

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Speaker 4: is less important than how do you feel when you're

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Speaker 4: with them? Having one really good friend is worth way

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Speaker 4: more than having a bunch of shallow, weak ties with

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Speaker 4: people who have just essentially hit a button, which is

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Speaker 4: all liking someone has to do. So. Another thing I

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Speaker 4: would ask kids is if they notice someone has a

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Speaker 4: lot of following, like again, they come to you like, oh,

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Speaker 4: that TikToker, that YouTuber there, you know, they have so

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Speaker 4: much influence. There's is to say to them, well, what

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Speaker 4: would you do if you had one hundred thousand followers?

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Speaker 4: Like what would that mean to you? And what would

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Speaker 4: you want to say to one hundred thousand people? You

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Speaker 4: also could ask your child do you think it would

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Speaker 4: ever be stressful to have one hundred thousand people or

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Speaker 4: ten thousand people, or six thousand people or six million

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Speaker 4: people following you? And what what do you think that's like?

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Speaker 4: And what about especially kid influencers, because we can get

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Speaker 4: into these really interesting questions with kids, Like if you have,

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Speaker 4: say a twelve year old, you can ask them what

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Speaker 4: was really their jam? You know, what they loved the

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Speaker 4: most in the world when they're nine, and then think about, well,

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Speaker 4: when you're sixteen, do you think that's still you know, what,

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Speaker 4: do you think you'll still love the things you love

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Speaker 4: now from being twelve? Like or do you think if

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Speaker 4: when you were eight or nine, you know, you got

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Speaker 4: super known for your love of Pokemon, and now that

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Speaker 4: you're in six or seventh grade, maybe that isn't the

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Speaker 4: thing you want to be known for. In the same way,

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Speaker 4: do you think when you're fifteen or sixteen you might

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Speaker 4: feel that way about what you love now in seventh grade.

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Speaker 4: Not that there's anything wrong with the things you love,

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Speaker 4: and by the way, not that there's anything wrong with

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Speaker 4: loving Pokemon when you're sixteen or thirty seven or fifty,

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Speaker 4: just that you may find that your interests do shift

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Speaker 4: over time and the things that you would want to

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Speaker 4: be known for in the world. So we can talk

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Speaker 4: to kids about that. What I wouldn't do is just

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Speaker 4: put down their desires, like say, your kid really wants

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Speaker 4: to be famous. Maybe your kid is going to be famous,

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Speaker 4: maybe they're going to be a performer, maybe they're going

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Speaker 4: to be a politician. And just like if your kids

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Speaker 4: said they wanted to be a professional athlete. We all

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Speaker 4: know that the actual odds of any one of us

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Speaker 4: having that as our career are low. But we wouldn't

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Speaker 4: just dismiss that. We'd be like, Wow, you're going to

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Speaker 4: have to practice really hard to be a professional tennis player. Wow,

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Speaker 4: you know, do you want to go to like a

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Speaker 4: tennis class this summer? Like what are you doing toward

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Speaker 4: that goal? I think we wouldn't say that's a stupid idea,

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Speaker 4: that's crazy whatever. We wouldn't just like put down their idea.

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Speaker 4: We would kind of find a way to support their

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Speaker 4: idea within the bounds of what was realistic. And I

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Speaker 4: think the younger kids are especially, you know, a little

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Speaker 4: kid saying I want to be a streamer for a living, Like, wow,

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Speaker 4: you must really love games. What do you like about

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Speaker 4: that streamer? If it's your seventeen year old saying I

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Speaker 4: want to be a streamer, I don't want to go

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Speaker 4: to college, I think we can have a different, maybe

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Speaker 4: a little bit more of a tough chat with that kid.

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Speaker 4: But even there, I mean, what if you have a

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Speaker 4: kid who's seventeen and they've designed sixty Minecraft mods and

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Speaker 4: they're making a living, they have a pretty good argument

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Speaker 4: to make that online entrepreneurship is happening for them. I

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Speaker 4: wouldn't totally dismiss it. I might still fight hard for

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Speaker 4: college or some kind of broader education or trade preparation

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Speaker 4: for the world. But at that point you have a

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Speaker 4: kid who has something to stand on, Right, They're not

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Speaker 4: just saying I want this and I have no idea

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Speaker 4: what it would take. Yeah, I think it's really important

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Speaker 4: to kind of help kids moderate what they think about fame,

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Speaker 4: and also to think gently about the downsides of fame

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Speaker 4: without sort of hitting them over the head with like

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Speaker 4: that's silly, or being an influencer as vapid or whatever.

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Speaker 4: I mean. I've certainly talked to teenagers who really have

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Speaker 4: strong desires around this stuff, and it is interesting to

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Speaker 4: think about are they capable of thinking about some of

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Speaker 4: the downsides, Because, of course, someone who's living their life

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Speaker 4: you tube and like getting paid to like wake up

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Speaker 4: in their messy bed or whatever, put on close and

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Speaker 4: go skateboarding, Like, of course that's going to look more

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Speaker 4: appealing than getting a job. Job.

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Speaker 5: Yes, Well, it's funny because you know, I've talked with

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Speaker 5: my kids about what the business model is of all

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Speaker 5: this you know, at various points people wanted to be

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Speaker 5: YouTubers and say, well, okay, what would tell me what

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Speaker 5: your first four or five episodes would be about? Right,

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Speaker 5: and you know it's hard to sustain, and we you know,

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Speaker 5: get a good conversation about entrepreneurship in that regard. We

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Speaker 5: are going to take a quick ad break and we

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Speaker 5: will be back with more with Devora Heidner about growing

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Speaker 5: up in Public. So let's talk a little bit about

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Speaker 5: the conversations we should be having with kids about what

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Speaker 5: they share online. A lot of your book Growing Up

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Speaker 5: in Public talk about, you know, the conversations you want

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Speaker 5: to have that you want to communicate before anything is

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Speaker 5: a crisis, before things just that being a parent who talks.

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Speaker 4: About these things is a good approach to all that.

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Speaker 4: So what are the conversations we should be having about

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Speaker 4: what people share online once they start getting their own

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Speaker 4: access to the internet and to social media. I think

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Speaker 4: we should talk about the fact that what a lot

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Speaker 4: of people share is a bit of a performance. That's

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Speaker 4: why maybe be Real, which was out lest Yer didn't

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Speaker 4: do as well. Right, Nobody actually wants to see us

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Speaker 4: unloading the dishwasher or doing our homework or doing the

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Speaker 4: boring things that constitute frankly, a ton of our lives, right,

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Speaker 4: Like much of our lives are sort of the routines

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Speaker 4: that we have to get through so that we can

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Speaker 4: have those moments at the top of the mountain with

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Speaker 4: our family in the sunrise or that, so we can have,

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Speaker 4: you know, those picturesque moments in you know, celebrating a

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Speaker 4: holiday or at a party. So it's good to remind

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Speaker 4: kids that those peak moments that people tend to share

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Speaker 4: in the more visual formats like you know in Instagram

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Speaker 4: type space a performative, and that if someone's really meeting

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Speaker 4: like the love of their life or their new best

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Speaker 4: friend or the person they're going to tour the world

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Speaker 4: in a bandwidth at that party, they're so busy in

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Speaker 4: that moment that they're not taking up pictures by the

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Speaker 4: punch bowl. So if they're taking pictures by the punch

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Speaker 4: bowl and you're at home on a Saturday night, it's

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Speaker 4: easy to feel like I'm lonely, I'm a loser, I

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Speaker 4: don't have friends, Like look at this other person, they

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Speaker 4: have such a great life. But we have to remember

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Speaker 4: they're probably taking pictures because they feel awkward and bored

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Speaker 4: at that party. That's why they're taking pictures, and they

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Speaker 4: want you to think they have a life. So we

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Speaker 4: have to kind of remind kids that it's a performance

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Speaker 4: and that they don't want to be sort of sucked

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Speaker 4: into that, and really help kids if they're getting involved in,

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Speaker 4: you know, looking at other people's locations or posts and

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Speaker 4: it's making them feel left out, then I would really

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Speaker 4: work with them on having strategies to figure out how

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Speaker 4: to ground in the present, how to feel better, which

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Speaker 4: could include turning off your phone and putting it away,

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Speaker 4: or turning to some other kind of content, or maybe

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Speaker 4: following new people who are more inclusive of you. You know,

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Speaker 4: there's a bunch of things you can do in terms

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Speaker 4: of your own posts. A lot of kids, we do

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Speaker 4: want to talk to them about what to share and

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Speaker 4: who to share it with, and that also follow their lead.

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Speaker 4: One of the things I'm most excited about that I

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Speaker 4: really learned from the teenagers I interviewed for growing up

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Speaker 4: in public was that kids are sharing in new ways

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Speaker 4: about LGBT plus issues, about sexuality in general, about gender identity,

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Speaker 4: and about mental health, and about neurodiversity right and things

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Speaker 4: that we were literally all of those things were things

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Speaker 4: that many of us who are parents today were taught

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Speaker 4: to never talk about, never ask about, not bring up

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Speaker 4: in public. These were very stigmatized things. I was in

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Speaker 4: therapy in high school, and I didn't even need to

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Speaker 4: be told by my parents, don't tell anyone you're in therapy.

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Speaker 4: I just figured it out from thosegeist. I just knew

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Speaker 4: to be like, I haven't orthy do one disappointment, I have whatever,

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Speaker 4: I'm busy, I have to go places right. I never

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Speaker 4: told my friends I was in therapy. Even my closest

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Speaker 4: friends probably didn't know I was in therapy. And again,

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Speaker 4: my parents never even explicitly said that. Now kids talk

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Speaker 4: about that stuff, they talk about mental health, and I

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Speaker 4: think as adults we should celebrate that the flips it is.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't want my kid finding their primary mental health

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Speaker 4: support on the internet. I would not want my kid

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Speaker 4: going on a discord, you know, for people with ADHD

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Speaker 4: or neurodiversity or whatever, and having that be their primary support.

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Speaker 4: If it's an affinity group and it feels good and

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Speaker 4: it's supportive, and it's in addition to being in a

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Speaker 4: social group or being in therapy or having other support

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Speaker 4: in their real life great, but I wouldn't want that

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Speaker 4: to be where they go to self diagnose, nor where

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Speaker 4: they would find their primary support and community. So I

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Speaker 4: think that's really important we want to balance that out.

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Speaker 4: But if your kid is expressing themselves and expressing their

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Speaker 4: identity in this place, it can make us really nervous.

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Speaker 4: And this is where as adults in the workplace, we

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Speaker 4: might have seen people be discriminated against for these exact

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Speaker 4: things or for these identities. And I think we have

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Speaker 4: to recognize that the kids are changing the world and

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Speaker 4: by the time they are in the workplace, sharing about

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Speaker 4: neurodiversity or LGBT identity is going to be a more

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Speaker 4: typical choice and that your kid, truly, if they fall

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Speaker 4: into one of those identityiesed categories, will not want to

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Speaker 4: go work somewhere where that's going to be a stigmatized,

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Speaker 4: problematized identity. And so yes, it might be self limiting,

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Speaker 4: But also I am in favor of the ways the

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Speaker 4: kids are all right here and the ways kids are

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Speaker 4: changing the world. I do think kids need to protect

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Speaker 4: themselves in their privacy. So if you're worried about a

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Speaker 4: kid over sharing in a way that makes them too

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Speaker 4: vulnerable to too many peers. I would absolutely work with

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Speaker 4: them on limiting their shares or talking about sharing more

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Speaker 4: in person. So that would be a kid who maybe

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Speaker 4: is just coming home from like I don't know, like

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Speaker 4: a hospitalization or something really serious. But if a kid

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Speaker 4: wants to shout from the rooftops about their pan identity

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Speaker 4: or you know, identifying as having dyslexia or something, I

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Speaker 4: would recognize that it's a different world than we live in.

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Speaker 5: Well, that's definitely true, yeah, that it's a totally different

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Speaker 5: world on stuff like that. But I wonder if there

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Speaker 5: are like specific rules that are helpful for people like

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Speaker 5: who are going you know, you giving a kid access

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Speaker 5: to this whole thing. I mean, you know, what are

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Speaker 5: there practical things that sound like, you know, don't post

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Speaker 5: where you live. I don't know, is there some sort

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Speaker 5: of yeah, well, like what are the roles that wait?

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Speaker 4: And it starts even younger, like it could be even

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Speaker 4: before your kid is posting on social that they're like

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Speaker 4: on roadblocks or whatever and not you know, someone could

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Speaker 4: ask your second or third grade or on roadblocks where

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Speaker 4: they live. And so a lot of times kids are

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Speaker 4: playing games on public servers at a young age, and

434
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:16,880
Speaker 4: that's the first time we need to kind of talk

435
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,520
Speaker 4: about internet strangers versus in person strangers. I actually think

436
00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,679
Speaker 4: both in person and internet strangers can be okay. But

437
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:26,840
Speaker 4: that's a nuanced message, you know, Like you don't want

438
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,159
Speaker 4: your third grader afraid to ask the librarian and the

439
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,959
Speaker 4: children's room for help. That's a friendly stranger, right. So

440
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:33,840
Speaker 4: we want to teach kids like, yes, sometimes it is

441
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,639
Speaker 4: okay to talk to people we don't know, and on

442
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,680
Speaker 4: the Internet, it might be okay to play a game

443
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,240
Speaker 4: with someone we don't know, but if they start asking

444
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,720
Speaker 4: personal questions, or if they start dropping hateful speech or splurs,

445
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 4: you can just leave. And we need to teach our

446
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:48,399
Speaker 4: kids that it's okay. You don't even have to be

447
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 4: nice about it. You don't even have to be like

448
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,720
Speaker 4: I don't like what you can just go if it's

449
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,960
Speaker 4: the internet, right, and that's a very different you know,

450
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:56,920
Speaker 4: whereas if it's your in person, like say it's your friend,

451
00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:58,960
Speaker 4: say you're on the sixth grade group chat, and someone

452
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,480
Speaker 4: starts talking in a mean way about a teacher another kid,

453
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,240
Speaker 4: then you may want to upstand. You may want to go,

454
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,200
Speaker 4: for example, individually to the person who's saying something mean.

455
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,920
Speaker 4: You may want to go individually to person who's been targeted,

456
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:11,879
Speaker 4: You may want to call someone out in front of everyone,

457
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,080
Speaker 4: or you may just want to leave the chat. What

458
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,160
Speaker 4: we want to do at every agent stage, whether it's

459
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 4: roadblocks the early years of group texting, which for a

460
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,439
Speaker 4: lot of kids is fifth and sixth grade, whether it's

461
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,680
Speaker 4: the early years of social media, which is often middle

462
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,879
Speaker 4: school can be sometimes earlier, or whether it's kids are

463
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,680
Speaker 4: even older and thinking about what's my digital reputation toward

464
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,160
Speaker 4: applying to college. At every agent stage, you want to rethink,

465
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 4: like who am I connected to? What are the boundaries?

466
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,160
Speaker 4: What's safe for me? Your fifteen year old could meet

467
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 4: a friend on discord that they might want to meet

468
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 4: in real life, but there's some safer ways to do that,

469
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 4: right And certainly if your kid wants to travel to

470
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 4: do that, like you would go with them, you know,

471
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:48,879
Speaker 4: like I, But I've talked to adults who have driven

472
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 4: their kid to us Starbucks in the next town over

473
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 4: to meet another kid that they met playing a game,

474
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 4: And especially if your kid has social struggles, you might

475
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,879
Speaker 4: be open to helping them find a real, like minded

476
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 4: peer that they met in a space like discord, but

477
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,719
Speaker 4: that's definitely a yellow light situation that's not just to

478
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 4: like here's a bus ticket can have fun situation. So

479
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 4: I think at every age we want to be thinking

480
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 4: about who our kids are connected to and also the

481
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,199
Speaker 4: time that it's taking from other pursuits. Like there's no

482
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,159
Speaker 4: real right amount of screen time, but we certainly wouldn't

483
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,359
Speaker 4: want our kids doing screens instead of sleeping, which is huge, right.

484
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,159
Speaker 4: A lot of kids are cutting into sleep, which we

485
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 4: know is well really not good from physical and mental health.

486
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 4: And we want to make sure that they're having opportunities

487
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 4: to do other things and that in some cases, their

488
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 4: screen based interests may lead us to help them. Especially

489
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 4: after these last three years, they may have forgotten how

490
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 4: to find any novelty off the screen, so we may

491
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,959
Speaker 4: need to nudge them like, hey, you're watching those cooking videos.

492
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 4: You know what we can do in the kitchen that

493
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 4: needs to happen, Like three times a day we could cook,

494
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 4: I know, and like there's a lot of people around

495
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 4: here who'll be really happy if you do that, and

496
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 4: you're going to get a lot of love and appreciation,

497
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 4: Like you see you you're watching them make those cupcakes

498
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 4: down there. Guess what you know, like we and your

499
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 4: you know, your siblings or your friends or whoever, Like

500
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 4: you'll be the most popular kid on your college dorm.

501
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 4: And all of our kids can be doing more around

502
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 4: the house. And I know you've talked about that on

503
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 4: the show, and I think it's so important that we

504
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,160
Speaker 4: think about, like as busy working parents, like what can

505
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 4: we do so that our kids can be helpful? Like

506
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 4: something your kid could do to be helpful is make

507
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 4: dinner one night a week. And if your kids watching

508
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 4: cooking shows, like like I see an aptitude and an interest.

509
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 4: If your kid's watching stuff that's, you know, maybe less useful,

510
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 4: like slim or whatever, at least have them make this lime,

511
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 4: Like I want to see them get off YouTube and

512
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 4: go make this lime. Get off TikTok and go make

513
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 4: the dance, like do the thing, like don't only watch

514
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 4: the thing. And that even includes gaming videos, Like if

515
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 4: you're going to watch all these how to videos on gaming,

516
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,639
Speaker 4: at least tell me what you learned and show me

517
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 4: how you're doing it in the game game, Like I

518
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 4: want to see that you're taking this knowledge that you're getting.

519
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 4: Because so much of YouTube and TikTok is like how

520
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,880
Speaker 4: to knowledge and applying it.

521
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, and in terms of what they talk about and say,

522
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 5: I mean, one of the conversations I've been trying to

523
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 5: have with my kids, I mean, based on some things

524
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 5: that have happened in our community, not with my children,

525
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 5: but broad in the community, like not to say anything

526
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 5: like the digital world is still the world and there's

527
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 5: still real people, and that you wouldn't want to say

528
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 5: anything in the digital world that you wouldn't say to

529
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 5: somebody and say if people knew who you were, right,

530
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 5: one hundred percent. We never want to be on apps

531
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 5: that allow us to be anonymous because the temptation to

532
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 5: be mean in those spaces or to experience meanness, Like

533
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 5: a lot of kids will be like, I want to

534
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 5: go on this anonymous app to find out what people

535
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 5: really think.

536
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 4: Well, you don't. You don't want to know you did

537
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 4: not and be those are cesspools. People are going there

538
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,719
Speaker 4: to be mean, So you're basically like going in with

539
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 4: a kick me sign on your back. If you go

540
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,679
Speaker 4: into those spaces, it's not a good place. It's nothing.

541
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 4: Nobody comes out unscathed. And yeah, we want to always

542
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 4: remember there's other human beings on the other end of

543
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 4: every digital interaction, whether you're posting on a famous person's YouTube,

544
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,959
Speaker 4: like a comment, whether you're liking somebody's Instagram post, and

545
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 4: if you that includes if you like a post or

546
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 4: a comment that someone makes on a group text, that's mean.

547
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 4: If you like a comment, not even say anything where

548
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 4: you agree with it, but if you just hit that

549
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 4: little thumbs up on a comment that's mean about someone

550
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 4: else or on a meme, you are voting for that,

551
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 4: and you are on record as saying like, I thumbs

552
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 4: up that. And I've seen kids be stunned that they're

553
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,959
Speaker 4: in trouble, like if there's bullying or whatever, and they

554
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 4: just liked it, and they're like, well, I just liked it.

555
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 4: I barely looked at it, and it's like, well, don't

556
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 4: like something you've barely looked at. Yeah, Because when someone

557
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 4: sees that, like the target say of that mean comment,

558
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 4: sees that you liked it, they're not going to feel like, well,

559
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 4: they just liked it. They probably didn't even really read it.

560
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 4: They're going to be like, oh my gosh, I thought

561
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 4: that person was okay. I thought I could be safe

562
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 4: with that person, And now I've seen they've liked this

563
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 4: really cruel comment, right, So we just have to really

564
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 4: think that through and it is very hard to remember,

565
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 4: but that there are other human beings on the other

566
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 4: end of all these interactions. When we have these interactions,

567
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 4: we're alone, and a lot of what we do as parents,

568
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 4: we're summing out our interactions. We're not modeling as much

569
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 4: as our parents did because our parents were on the

570
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 4: phone and we could overhear. So one of the things

571
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 4: we need to do as adults and mentors to our

572
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 4: kids and frankly mentors to younger people in the workplace

573
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 4: is actually communicate explicitly about the communication choices we're making

574
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 4: because our kids don't know so to even say out

575
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 4: loud this is very heavy news. I'm going to wait

576
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 4: to talk about this in person, or I'm having a

577
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 4: lot of conflict with this person on text, so I'm

578
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 4: going to try to work it out with them face

579
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 4: to face or on the phone, because it's not going

580
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 4: to get better and really teaching kids, guess what if

581
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 4: you get into a back and forth with someone on

582
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 4: text and it's getting worse and worse, it's not going

583
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 4: to get better on text. You have to call them

584
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 4: up and work it out.

585
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 5: Yes, exactly, We're going to take one more quick ad

586
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 5: break and we'll be right back.

587
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 4: All right, I am back with Devaara Height. Now we're

588
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 4: talking about growing up.

589
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 5: In public, how kids and parents can deal with the

590
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 5: fact that everything we do is out there. And I

591
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 5: wanted to sort of you know, obviously there's great things

592
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 5: that happen online. We could make great friends online. Sarah

593
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 5: and I connected through our blogs many years ago. That's

594
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 5: how this podcast even came to be.

595
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 4: But obviously the potential for when things.

596
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 5: Go wrong, they can go very wrong, and all we've

597
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 5: all seen that with certain people saying. So, let's say

598
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 5: you are in a situation where your kid does something

599
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 5: you know, stupid and it's out.

600
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 4: There and now you got to deal with it. How

601
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 4: do you deal with it? Right? So you want to

602
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 4: find out as much as possible, and I actually I

603
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 4: can give you for the show notes. I have an

604
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 4: SOS guide, like literally, like for that situation, like my

605
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 4: kid or a peer has shared something and it's either

606
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 4: going on in the community. I mean, the first thing

607
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 4: we want to do is if it's a peer, say

608
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 4: it's not your kid, do not circulate it, do not

609
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 4: share it, even if you're horrified by it, like it

610
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 4: doesn't make it any better. And if they've said something

611
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 4: harmful that targets a group of people or individuals, you're

612
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 4: actually amplifying and exacerbating that harm by sharing it. If

613
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 4: it's your own kid, you want to find out who's

614
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 4: seen it, And I'm going to give you like two

615
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 4: different category. So say your kid has shared something that,

616
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 4: out of context maybe sounds really mean or problematically, maybe

617
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 4: they said something about a teacher in a group text

618
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 4: and someone's like sharing it all the way around the community.

619
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 4: They need to make restitution for that. They need to

620
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 4: go to the person that they've spoken about badly. They

621
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 4: need to apologize, They need to graciously and gracefully accept

622
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 4: whatever consequences come down. And then they do need to

623
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 4: move forward. And they have a right to move forward

624
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 4: because and all of us do. None of us should

625
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 4: be forever paying for past mistakes, but especially children and

626
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 4: teenagers should get even more grace from the community. So

627
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 4: if someone asks you about it, you can say, my

628
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 4: kid has made amends for that and we're moving forward

629
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 4: and close the door to the conversation. And same thing

630
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 4: with your child. If you know people who are still

631
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 4: sharing it and amplifying it. You can go to them

632
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 4: or go to their parents and ask them to stop

633
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 4: sharing and again let them know that it's causing more harm,

634
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 4: not just to your child who messed up, or to

635
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 4: the kid who messed up, but to the person who

636
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 4: was targeted. Right, we don't want to keep amplifying that.

637
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 4: And I think as parents, sometimes it's someone else's kid.

638
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 4: Like say a picture goes around of another kid, you know,

639
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 4: vaping or drinking or making another kind of mistake, and

640
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 4: someone has videotaped that. We have to remember that picture

641
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 4: may have been taken very out of contact. We don't

642
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,479
Speaker 4: know the story. We don't know what our kid was doing.

643
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 4: If our kid's not in the picture, we don't know

644
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 4: what our kid is doing like two feet to the

645
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 4: left of that picture, or what pictures might exist of them.

646
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 4: And so I would be very very careful before taking

647
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 4: the moral high ground in that situation, and I would

648
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 4: really focus on what the concern really should be. So,

649
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 4: if someone was harmed, the concern should be on the

650
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 4: person who was harmed. If a group was targeted, the

651
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 4: concern should be how do we raise up that group

652
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 4: in our community? And make sure that we're doing Say

653
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 4: it was a racist incident, like, how are we doing

654
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 4: anti racist work in this community? Right? If it was

655
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 4: anti Semitic, how are we dealing with that? If it

656
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 4: was islamophobic, if it was homophobic, like, how are we

657
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 4: supporting queer kids in this community? How are we supporting

658
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 4: Muslim kids in this community? Like very directly, we want

659
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 4: to focus on the targeted community and not as much

660
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 4: on the effect like this, Let the school or the

661
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 4: community deal with the consequences. But it shouldn't be like

662
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 4: a bunch of parent vigilantes going around to try to

663
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 4: shame the offender. The focus should be on the target group.

664
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 4: If it's more like you're a kid was behaving poorly,

665
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 4: like say vaping or smoking cigarettes, doing drugs, whatever, I

666
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 4: would focus on, Does my kid know the stats on addiction?

667
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 4: Is my you know? Have I read books like Addiction

668
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 4: and Aculation by my friend Jessica Lakey? Have I prepared myself?

669
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 4: Have I had the talk? Right? Most of us have

670
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 4: had the talk with our kids about sex and sexuality

671
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 4: or drunk driving, but like, have we had to talk

672
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 4: about vaping? You know? Is my kid really prepared? Asking

673
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 4: kids the hard questions like have you been offered this

674
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 4: stuff hit at a party or in a social situation,

675
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 4: and not again focusing on making an example of the

676
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 4: one kid, but just really saying, okay, well, this is

677
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 4: evidence to me. This is the canary and the coal

678
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 4: mine that it's in the community, which we already knew

679
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 4: because it's everywhere. All this stuff is everywhere. So how

680
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 4: do we have the tough conversation if a nude image

681
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 4: of your kid is going around an explicit image. I

682
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 4: have a whole chapter on sexting, and by the way,

683
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 4: help to parents. No kid in the world calls sexting sexting.

684
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 4: It is not talked about that way. They talk about

685
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 4: sending or sending nudes just f way. If your kid

686
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 4: has shared a picture of themselves stay topless or in

687
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 4: they're underpants or no clothes, or just like a naughty

688
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,479
Speaker 4: text even and it's gotten out there, I think we

689
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 4: want to make sure that we communicate to our child

690
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 4: that I have so much respect for you. I'm sorry

691
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 4: this got out without your control. Nothing you could do

692
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 4: would make me lose that respect for you. I'm concerned

693
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 4: for your safety and your emotional well being right now,

694
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 4: And let's talk about the steps we can take to

695
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 4: try to rain this in. Like, if someone has violated

696
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 4: your trust and shared this picture without your consent, that's

697
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 4: a really big deal. It's against the law. You have

698
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 4: rights in this situation. And then you know, the specifics

699
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 4: are really going to vary depending on like how widely

700
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 4: it's circulated, was it circulated with malicious intent or by

701
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 4: mistake and all these kinds of things. But it's very

702
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 4: important that we communicate to a kid who's a right

703
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 4: in an incredibly embarrassing situation that's super stigmatized by our society,

704
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 4: particularly even in twenty twenty three because of the double

705
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 4: standard for girls, it's super stigmatized, and so we need

706
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 4: to make sure that we're talking to kids not in

707
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 4: a double standard way, in a respectful way, and just

708
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 4: to say, like wanting to information on sexuality, including wanting

709
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 4: to know that someone thinks you're attractive, is normal and Okay,

710
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 4: we just don't live in a world where this is

711
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 4: a safe way for young people or really any of

712
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 4: us because of digital lack of privacy to express our sexuality.

713
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 4: So you know, legally they may have made a mistake,

714
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 4: but morally, if they shared consensually with someone else. Your

715
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 4: kid is not the one who made the big mistake.

716
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 4: The person who made the big mistake is the person

717
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 4: who shared without consent. Legally, all everyone's in a mess,

718
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 4: right so I can't and that's true in most states,

719
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 4: in most countries, so where you're listening to this, If

720
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:53,719
Speaker 4: your kid is a minor and they've shared a new

721
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 4: that's a whole separate problem. But morally and ethically, I

722
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 4: would really focus on, you know, if your kid hasn't

723
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 4: violated content, if your kid like harassed someone else or

724
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 4: shared without that person's consent, then that's a whole other

725
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 4: level and that's a different conversation. But if your kid's

726
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 4: picture is out there, I would focus on trying to

727
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 4: get it back, trying to help them feel safe at school,

728
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 4: making sure the school counselor knows so they have a

729
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 4: safe way to return to school, and also making sure

730
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 4: that people in the community have a raised awareness of

731
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 4: how widespread this is. A lot of kids have done this,

732
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 4: not the majority at this point, but enough that even

733
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 4: if your kid never sends a picture like this, they

734
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 4: will one hundred percent here about someone doing it in

735
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 4: high school, if not middle school.

736
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's really something because yes, the advent of cameras

737
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 5: where that can happen versus you know, like when we

738
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 5: were growing up, I mean people took photos that had

739
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 5: taken so many steps to share it around to the

740
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 5: world that people would have sobered up long before they

741
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 5: thought to do it. So, yeah, this is all very

742
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 5: good food for thought for those of us who are

743
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 5: raising kids and the various conversations we need to have

744
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,719
Speaker 5: with them. They have their online selves and as they

745
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 5: grow up in public. So demorrow we always end with

746
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 5: a love of the week, something that we are enjoying,

747
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 5: so you know.

748
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 4: It's it doesn't have to be tech related. It could

749
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 4: be anything.

750
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 5: But I have been actually enjoying One of my kids

751
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 5: is on social media, but obviously we follow each other

752
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 5: and I like just.

753
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,720
Speaker 4: To see what gets posted, because it's not negative.

754
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 5: It's just a way to see what's going on in life,

755
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 5: you know, and the things that are chosen to share.

756
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 4: It's like, oh, yeah, that's what's on the mind right now.

757
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 5: And I think that is an insight that we wouldn't

758
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 5: have necessarily had in the past. And so, you know,

759
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 5: it's just a different way of learning about kids.

760
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 4: How about you I love that. I just put on

761
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 4: my wet suit today for the first time. I live

762
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 4: in Chicago and Lake Michigan is very cold, yes, and

763
00:34:58,200 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 4: so I went in today for the first time of

764
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 4: the season in the water was fifty five degrees, so

765
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 4: only my face was really exposed to the fifty five

766
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 4: degree water because I was in like my full like

767
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 4: you know, insulated cap and all the things. It was

768
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,280
Speaker 4: wonderful and I have to say, it feels so much better.

769
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 4: And you know, if you read Anna Lemki or other

770
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 4: people that are talking about some of the benefits of

771
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 4: cold water immersion on the mood, and I really was

772
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 4: quite stressed out when I went in, and I feel

773
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 4: a lot better now, So I'm very excited about that.

774
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 4: That's great. Sounds kind of frigid to me, but to

775
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 4: each the wet suit makes it possible. I would not

776
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 4: be in that water with no wet suit, right exactly,

777
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 4: die literally exactly exactly.

778
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 5: Well, were maybe becauldn't Obviously your your book is coming

779
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 5: out soon. Encourage our listeners to go buy it. Growing

780
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 5: Up in Public. If you've got a kid, they are

781
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 5: going to be growing up in public in a way

782
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 5: that we did not. Unless you are you know, a

783
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 5: much younger parent listening to this, which we have some

784
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 5: but obviously our early twenty something parents probably did have

785
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 5: this experience, but many of us are a little older

786
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 5: than that, we did not, and so it's a.

787
00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:58,879
Speaker 4: Lot of food for thought.

788
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 5: Just you know how we approach, you know, even topics

789
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 5: we didn't talk about, like using surveillance apps on your kids,

790
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 5: which is a whole different Yeah.

791
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 4: You could do a whole post sometimes like an Instagram

792
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 4: live about life through c Yeah, exactly, and whether that's

793
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 4: a good idea or not.

794
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 5: And you know, I are on the side of not,

795
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 5: but different people reach different conclusions. So you know, well

796
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 5: you can let me know and the shore notes all

797
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 5: that people can write about that, but please let our

798
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 5: listeners know where they can find you and find more

799
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:29,919
Speaker 5: about you and your work.

800
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 4: Absolutely so I'm at Devorah Heightener dot com and I'll

801
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 4: share those soos guides with you which you can join,

802
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,720
Speaker 4: and Growing Up in Public is the newest latest book.

803
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 4: And then I'm also on Instagram at Devora Hayner PhD.

804
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 4: So those are a couple of good places to track

805
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 4: me down and I share a lot of insights in

806
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 4: all these places that I love hearing from parents about

807
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 4: some of the things you've learned from your kids, mentoring experiences,

808
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 4: et cetera.

809
00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 5: Wonderful Well, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you

810
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 5: fascinating stuff. I've definitely been thinking about my interview with

811
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 5: Devora for a while now and again, people can go pick.

812
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 4: Up screen Wise now.

813
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 5: You will be able to pick up Growing Up in

814
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 5: Public in September, or you can pre order it now.

815
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 5: We will talk about it again when it comes out

816
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 5: in September, because it's a really important topic. So Sarah

817
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 5: question this week, A listener writes in that I want

818
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 5: to read more. So many of us trying to spend

819
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 5: a little bit less time on screens, hopefully trying to

820
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 5: read a little bit more. And this listener notes that

821
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 5: both of us do in fact read a fair amount.

822
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 5: So when do you find time to read?

823
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 3: I typically read a little bit of nonfiction in the morning.

824
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 3: That's just kind of part of my waking up routine.

825
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 3: I drink coffee, I have the book there, and I

826
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 3: typically read novels at night or perhaps like if I'm

827
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 3: waiting in the car for a kid. They're kind of

828
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 3: my like downtime books and wind down books and my

829
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 3: number one tip for finding time to read is to

830
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 3: choose books that you enjoy and to not be afraid

831
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,720
Speaker 3: of saying goodbye to a book if you are finding

832
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 3: it a slog. There are so many great resources now

833
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 3: to find book recommendations. Often you can find someone who's

834
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 3: like almost like your book twin and you know if

835
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,240
Speaker 3: they love something, you're going to enjoy it as well.

836
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 3: So I do feel like the books that I've selected

837
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 3: have just gotten like, I don't know, I've picked a

838
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 3: lot of winners, but I haven't picked them. I've been

839
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 3: basing them off of what other people are raving about,

840
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,919
Speaker 3: and when it's someone's favorite book of the year, there's

841
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:27,919
Speaker 3: a decent chance that I'm at least going to find

842
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 3: it somewhat compelling to read. It also means that I

843
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 3: tend to stick to certain genres that I enjoy for

844
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 3: the most part. I mean that's neither here nor there,

845
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 3: But I honestly think some people who struggle to read

846
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 3: are making it a chore. And it's the whole point

847
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 3: now that we're adults, for the most part, is that

848
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 3: it should be fun for you. So the book selection

849
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 3: is a really big part of how I find time

850
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:52,479
Speaker 3: to read.

851
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, if there's something you want to read,

852
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 5: it's just more compelling use of your leisure time. And

853
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 5: in fact, if you're looking at your life and you're

854
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 5: not sure where the pockets are that you might be

855
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,959
Speaker 5: able to read, you should try picking up something that's

856
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 5: just I mean an absolute page turner. I don't know,

857
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 5: people haven't read Harry Potter. You could do that, but

858
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 5: it could be like a John Grisham novel or you

859
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 5: know what the Da Vinci Code or something just you know,

860
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 5: one of those books that's like known for being a

861
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 5: page turner, because then you'll find yourself repurposing little pockets.

862
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 4: Of time through your day.

863
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 5: However else you're spending your various hours because you'll want

864
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 5: to find out what happens next, So that can be

865
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 5: one helpful thing there. I would say that I have

866
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 5: two forms of reading. I mean, one is my structured

867
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 5: reading projects that I've been doing for the past few years,

868
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 5: where I'm trying to get through something that's bigger, more important.

869
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 5: That is, you know, the books and stories I would

870
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 5: have liked to have read right that I want to

871
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 5: have on the list of things I have read. And

872
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 5: so for that I take a very structured approach of

873
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 5: reading a certain number of pages every single day so

874
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 5: that over the long haul you can get through something big.

875
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 5: And it's never that much at any given time, but

876
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 5: I tend to do that in the morning. The leisure reading,

877
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 5: it really is driven by what do I feel like reading,

878
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 5: and I try.

879
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 4: Not to have any sort of.

880
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 3: How would I put this, like value judgment.

881
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, like no value judgment.

882
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 5: Like if I want to read a stupid book on decluttering,

883
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 5: like I can read it, you know, especially because this

884
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 5: is stuff I'm often reading while I'm sitting in Henry's

885
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 5: room waiting for him to go to bed, at it

886
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 5: on my phone. It does not need to be Warren Piece.

887
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 5: I already read Warren Piece, right. That is what the

888
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 5: structured morning reading takes care of.

889
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 4: So I feel like I've got this intellectually serious stuff

890
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 4: that's happened.

891
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 5: And so if I want to read, you know, the

892
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 5: equivalent of brain candy at night, it is totally fine

893
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,479
Speaker 5: and not even like good story brain candy.

894
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 4: I'm talking like the book equivalent of magazines is often

895
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 4: what I am reading at night.

896
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 5: So yeah, just if you don't like the book, don't

897
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 5: read it. One quick tip here just to maybe save

898
00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 5: yourself some money. If you're like me and reading a

899
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 5: lot on your phone, I have the Kindle app. I

900
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 5: always do the free sample. Now Amazon allows you to

901
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 5: download a free sample that's usually somewhere between eight and

902
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 5: fifteen percent of the book, so it's not a small amount,

903
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 5: like you'll be able to tell in that amount of

904
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 5: time if you're going to want to read this book

905
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 5: or not. And if you find in the first few

906
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 5: pages that it is a terrible book and you want

907
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 5: nothing to do with it, well, no money's gone, no harm,

908
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 5: no foul, go find the next thing. But almost universally,

909
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 5: if you liked the first eight to fifteen percent, you're

910
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 5: going to like the rest of the book. There's very

911
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 5: few people who put their you know, make a totally

912
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 5: different book after the first eight to fifteen percent. So

913
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,439
Speaker 5: make sure you take that one extra little step and

914
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 5: you'll probably find yourself with more books that you do,

915
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 5: in fact wish to complete.

916
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 4: Love it.

917
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 3: And if anybody has book recks and they want to

918
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 3: put them in the show notes of this episode of

919
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 3: something they've read recently that was an amazing page turner

920
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 3: that they think might help those who want to kind

921
00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 3: of get a jump on their reading journey. Please share

922
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:04,280
Speaker 3: that I recommend for summer anything Ellen Hildebrand. It's great

923
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 3: summer genre, very beachy, very nantucket, a lot of fun.

924
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 4: Right. I haven't actually read her sop yeats. Maybe I

925
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 4: should do that. All right?

926
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 5: Well, this has been the interview with Devora Heidner, author

927
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 5: of Screenwise and Growing Up in Public. We will be

928
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 5: back next week with more on making work and life

929
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 5: fit together.

930
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the

931
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram.

932
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 2: And you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.

933
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 1: This has been the best of both worlds podcasts.

934
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 2: Please join us next time for more on making work

935
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 2: and life work together.