Speaker 1: Hi, get everybody. I'm Dan Horde and thanks for downloading
Speaker 1: the Bengals Booth Podcast. The time has come today. Addition,
Speaker 1: as the Bengals practice in full pads for the first
Speaker 1: time in training camp. Coming up, Dave Lapham joins me
Speaker 1: to share his training camp observations, and then I'll be
Speaker 1: joined by Robert Weintraub, who writes about the NFL for
Speaker 1: Football Outsiders and writes about the Bengals for Cincinnati Magazine.
Speaker 1: We'll discuss the Bengals chapter in this year's Football Outsiders Almanac,
Speaker 1: and much more. The Bengals Booth Podcast is presented by
Speaker 1: Bud Light Seltzer. Refresh the game, and here's a quick
Speaker 1: reminder that you can have the latest edition of this
Speaker 1: podcast delivered right to your phone, tablet, or computer by
Speaker 1: subscribing on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, Spotify, or pod Bean.
Speaker 1: It's the greatest thing since Dan Patrick's Interviews. Due to
Speaker 1: training camp, I'm usually not able to tune into Dan
Speaker 1: Patrick's radio show, but lately I've been listening to the
Speaker 1: Best of Dan Patrick podcast on my ride home. The
Speaker 1: producers take the best segments from his three hour show
Speaker 1: and condense it to less than an hour on the podcast,
Speaker 1: and that's where his interviewing ability really shines. Dan does
Speaker 1: his homework and clearly comes in with a list of questions,
Speaker 1: but he's naturally curious, so he doesn't feel the need
Speaker 1: to stick to his list. He listens to his guests,
Speaker 1: ask great follow up questions, and his sense of humor
Speaker 1: puts those guests at ease. A few things for me
Speaker 1: to keep in mind each week on this podcast. Now,
Speaker 1: let's get to football. The Bengals held their first padded
Speaker 1: practice on Tuesday, and when it was finished, offensive line
Speaker 1: coach Frank Pollock asked my broadcast partner Dave Lapham and
Speaker 1: Hall of Famer Anthony Munio's to address his group. He
Speaker 1: told them that lap and Anthony were part of one
Speaker 1: of the best offensive lines in franchise history and a
Speaker 1: key reason why the Banks got to the Super Bowl.
Speaker 1: He then said, that's the standard we are trying to reach.
Speaker 1: When Anthony spoke to the current players, you could sense
Speaker 1: the respect and reverence that they have for the greatest
Speaker 1: Bengal of all time. I spoke to lap about that
Speaker 1: and the first few days of training camp. Anthony obviously
Speaker 1: in the Hall of Fame, and I mean perennial pro
Speaker 1: bowler twelve Pro Bowls in thirteen years or some such
Speaker 1: thing like that. That was crazy. You know, obviously I'm
Speaker 1: listening to him in of what he's got to say,
Speaker 1: and he's just, you know, he's just such a special guy,
Speaker 1: special friend, special husband, special father, special grandfather. He's just
Speaker 1: he's he's solid gold and every every way you can be.
Speaker 1: And it's funny when we were talking about some of
Speaker 1: the things training camp and repetition of techniques and all that,
Speaker 1: just it just takes you right back there. It's it's
Speaker 1: it's truly amazing how when you go through something like that.
Speaker 1: I'm sure guys in the military even more so, or
Speaker 1: guys you know in a police force or fire department
Speaker 1: over where you have to be codependent with guys you
Speaker 1: know next year from a physical standpoint and all the
Speaker 1: things that go along with it. I there's there's something
Speaker 1: to that, there's something to that bond. And I remember
Speaker 1: Tiger Johnson telling me after I made the team as
Speaker 1: a rookie, he said, congratulations, young man, do this as
Speaker 1: long as you can, because he goes, you're gonna make
Speaker 1: relationships here that you'll never be able to duplicate in
Speaker 1: any other walk of life, and he was exactly right.
Speaker 1: Anthony began his address to the offensive line by saying,
Speaker 1: be coachable, whether in your first year or eleventh year,
Speaker 1: pay attention to the coach, and try to get better
Speaker 1: every day. Yeah, I mean Anthony, that's that's a good
Speaker 1: example of his humbleness, you know, because he's playing at
Speaker 1: the highest level possible. But if somebody had a suggestion
Speaker 1: or a recommendation, it had merit to him. You know,
Speaker 1: he wouldn't necessarily do it all, but he'd experiment, try it,
Speaker 1: always looking to improve his game, never thinking he had arrived.
Speaker 1: Even as great as he was for as long a
Speaker 1: period of time as he was, never felt like he'd arrived.
Speaker 1: And that's I think a key to his greatness. I
Speaker 1: think it's a key to anybody's greatness if they're at
Speaker 1: the top of their profession, whatever it may be. You know,
Speaker 1: never settled, never say you know, I've done it, I'm
Speaker 1: here because that's the end of the journey. You know,
Speaker 1: Anthony never wanted the journey to end. So we're basically
Speaker 1: a week into practice. They've had six sessions. Today was
Speaker 1: the first one in full pads by and large, the
Speaker 1: defense has been ahead of the offense. Why do you
Speaker 1: think that's the case. Well, I think defense is a
Speaker 1: reactionary thing and the offense is more of a you know,
Speaker 1: a timing and a coordination of a multiple of things.
Speaker 1: But honestly, I just think the defense is executing their
Speaker 1: fulfilling their assignments extremely well, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: I think they're playing with a lot of enthusiasm. When
Speaker 1: Pratt had his interception yesterday, it was like they won
Speaker 1: a playoff game. The guys reacted and everybody exploded off
Speaker 1: the sideline. That's good to see. I mean it was,
Speaker 1: you know, still an unpadded practice, and uh they're they're
Speaker 1: taking it, you know that seriously. So um yeah, I
Speaker 1: think defensively, they I think they have a solid understanding
Speaker 1: of what Leu and Rouma wants and how he wants
Speaker 1: it done. He said that during OTAs he you know,
Speaker 1: really was aggressive with his installation, and their attention of
Speaker 1: that has been pretty good. They're doing quite a few
Speaker 1: things and they're doing them pretty well. So I think,
Speaker 1: uh yeah, right now, the defense, I'd say they're stacking
Speaker 1: good practices together. You know, three or four in a
Speaker 1: row have been really really high level um defending between
Speaker 1: the twenties, red zone, low red zone, inside the ten
Speaker 1: yard line, first and goal stuff. I mean, they're they're
Speaker 1: plastering people, they're suffocating, they're they're doing a good job.
Speaker 1: You know. For Joe, it's like when he's uh, when
Speaker 1: he can has time to set his feet and scope
Speaker 1: the field, there's coverage, and then it's times they're open players,
Speaker 1: but there's no time to set his so it's like
Speaker 1: pressure and coverage or complimenting each other. The defense is
Speaker 1: on a nice little role right now. For sure, Joe's
Speaker 1: moving around fine, scrambling left and right, rolling out whatever
Speaker 1: the past play calls for. Seems to have moments where
Speaker 1: he's throwing the ball extremely well. But in the eleven
Speaker 1: and eleven sessions, he test is a tick off, and
Speaker 1: I think I think it's because, like we talked about
Speaker 1: how well the defense is playing, and you know, he's human,
Speaker 1: and I think he's pressing a little bit and he
Speaker 1: wants to do well. He wants to show his teammates.
Speaker 1: The need is not an issue. I'm back, I'm here,
Speaker 1: I'm doing everything, and I'm doing everything well. And I
Speaker 1: think everybody watch him practice has such an expectation every
Speaker 1: throw is going to be a beautiful fifty yard touchdown pass.
Speaker 1: And so I'm not saying there's pressure. If there is,
Speaker 1: if he's feeling any pressure, it's self imposed, obviously, But
Speaker 1: I think he just he wants to do well and
Speaker 1: he's competitor, and I think he's frustrated. And sometimes when
Speaker 1: that occurs, you know, you just start to press a
Speaker 1: little bit, and sometimes that's the worst thing you can do.
Speaker 1: If all eyes are on Burrow, they then go to
Speaker 1: Jamar Chase next. They always said checking out the first
Speaker 1: round draft pick in any season, And similarly, he's had
Speaker 1: moments where he's looked great, but he hasn't been dominant yet.
Speaker 1: And I suppose I find myself wondering a little bit
Speaker 1: about the fact that he missed all of last year
Speaker 1: and maybe it's just going to take a little while
Speaker 1: to get back up to speed. Yeah, I think you
Speaker 1: know you can, you can make a case in a
Speaker 1: legitimate case that you know, opting out is a factor. Um,
Speaker 1: but I watched TUPO, and of course that's interior line
Speaker 1: players opposed to skill position a wide receiver, and he
Speaker 1: seems to be, you know, hold holding the Ford pretty
Speaker 1: well inside as an interior defensive lineman. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: think I think, I think they're going to be fine.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is still very very early in training
Speaker 1: camp when when we look at team reps there's probably
Speaker 1: two sets of fifty or sixteen during the course of
Speaker 1: a practice, so, you know, a couple of practices and
Speaker 1: barely over sixty reps. But is it something you abnor, No,
Speaker 1: do you feel like you need to make adjustments and
Speaker 1: improve and get better? Hell, yes, there's no question about it.
Speaker 1: And I think defensively they're riding. They're riding a nice
Speaker 1: little little high right now. I'm sure they're talking about
Speaker 1: it in the locker room and in everything that goes
Speaker 1: along with it. But you know, the practices they had
Speaker 1: up until today, Dan, I just I just look at
Speaker 1: that as a football conditioning, you know, and uh, it's
Speaker 1: it's good football conditioning. But now, putting pads on for
Speaker 1: the first time, I remember when every training camp I
Speaker 1: did this. This was the last day my body was
Speaker 1: going to feel good until the Steveson was over. And
Speaker 1: hopefully that's February for this football team after the Super Bowl.
Speaker 1: But yeah, tomorrow morning, when they wake up they'll be
Speaker 1: a little sore. It's a good sore. You're back to
Speaker 1: playing football. But your body is adjusting, you know, and
Speaker 1: it'll it'll have to be adjusting now for the rest
Speaker 1: of the season. With the full pads on, they did
Speaker 1: their first past rush drills where an individual offensive lineman
Speaker 1: is isolated one on one against an individual pass rush.
Speaker 1: Are a little bit unfair for the offensive lineman because
Speaker 1: the defensive guy has great latitude to go left and right,
Speaker 1: which you wouldn't have with a lot of traffic around.
Speaker 1: But I thought by and large, the starting offensive lineman
Speaker 1: or the guys that are expected to play a lot,
Speaker 1: held up pretty well. I agree with you, Dan, you know,
Speaker 1: I think you know, people are like, oh jeez, he
Speaker 1: get pushed back five yards in that drill. It's almost
Speaker 1: impossible to wire you guy at the line of scrimmage
Speaker 1: and he doesn't move a muscle and moving in So
Speaker 1: that's just not gonna happen. They're gonna take an edge
Speaker 1: on you every once in a while, they're gonna try
Speaker 1: to bull rush. But you know, like you said, Interstate
Speaker 1: seventy one and seventy five are both open. You got
Speaker 1: two lanes and they can utilize both of those lanes,
Speaker 1: and you know, then you get into pass protection with
Speaker 1: the garden tackle center garden tackle and the twists and
Speaker 1: stunts and all that. That's a different animal. That's a
Speaker 1: totally different scenario. They didn't do any of that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff today, but they'll get to that. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought, I agree with you. I thought that, you know,
Speaker 1: the five guys that Frank has been working with probably
Speaker 1: the most, and I thought really at tackle they held
Speaker 1: up pretty well. Every once in a while there was
Speaker 1: a problem at the interior position where a guy get
Speaker 1: beaten quickly, pretty quickly and got off balance. You know,
Speaker 1: either you know, you know, leaned his shoulders or or
Speaker 1: you know, get his body out of total balance or
Speaker 1: whatever the case may be. So um, there's there's always
Speaker 1: work to be done. But for a very first day
Speaker 1: of pass rush, it was yin and yang. There were
Speaker 1: some wins, there were some losses, just like you'd expect.
Speaker 1: The kicking battle has been closely watched at the end
Speaker 1: of practice. They did not attempt field goals at the
Speaker 1: end of practice on Tuesday. But unless he has a
Speaker 1: horrible preseason, I think Evan McPherson is just about a
Speaker 1: lock to be this team's kicker on opening day. Dan,
Speaker 1: you've covered baseball for a long time. You know how
Speaker 1: the special hitters the ball sounds different coming off their bat.
Speaker 1: When the ball comes off this guy's foot, it has
Speaker 1: a different sound. You know. He just absolutely cranks the thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, the thud is just even more pronounced. It's
Speaker 1: it's unbelievable how hard he strikes the ball and how
Speaker 1: it just jumps, like the ball jumps off of a bat,
Speaker 1: and like the ball jumps off of this guy's foot,
Speaker 1: and he is he is explosive. I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's it's overall strength, biomechanics, the leverage of it. Whatever
Speaker 1: he's got going on, it's going on very very well
Speaker 1: and very very powerful. There's no question about it. This
Speaker 1: team lost Will Jackson as a free agent. I have
Speaker 1: no idea how he's doing in camp for Washington, but
Speaker 1: they basically signed two guys for the same price, chittabey
Speaker 1: O Wouge and Mike Hilton. Boy, they both looked good
Speaker 1: at this camp. Couldn't agree more, Dan, I mean, you
Speaker 1: go two for it's it's it's hard to beat, particularly
Speaker 1: when the two for two for one is playing like
Speaker 1: they are and and they're basically Cheeto is doing what
Speaker 1: Will Jackson did, maybe as well or maybe even better
Speaker 1: at this Now it's early, you know, first day of
Speaker 1: pads and all that, and then you get the best
Speaker 1: pressure guy at slot corner in the National Football League,
Speaker 1: and he's got he's got some juice to him, there's
Speaker 1: no question. I mean, he's a guy that players are
Speaker 1: gravitating toward because he came from a great defensive football
Speaker 1: team and a team that has had overall success for many,
Speaker 1: many years, and that gives him some credibility. How does
Speaker 1: Riley reeflick? He looks He looks good. You know, he's
Speaker 1: battling a little bit of an ankle injury now. He
Speaker 1: twisted his ankle on the interception that Pratt had against
Speaker 1: Joe Barrow. Nothing serious, you know, He's just a little
Speaker 1: bit of a hitch and hiss. Get along. I think
Speaker 1: he's going to be back sooner rather than later. But yeah,
Speaker 1: he's a he's a ten year of veteran that gets it,
Speaker 1: gets it in every possible way you can get it
Speaker 1: on and off the field, and he's going to be
Speaker 1: a stabilizing influence on and off the field. For this
Speaker 1: offensive line in this football team. I think all season long,
Speaker 1: Joe Mixon looks frisky like he can't wait for his
Speaker 1: first regular season carry. That's a great, great word, great description. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like, uh, the first time you let the puppy
Speaker 1: out in the backyard, you know, and it's yeah, he's
Speaker 1: he's he's ready to he's ready to roll. And I
Speaker 1: would not I'm not sure. I might wrap him and
Speaker 1: suran rap and just make sure that he's there on
Speaker 1: the twelfth or opening day against the Minnesota Vikes because
Speaker 1: he's in great physical shape. He understands this running game,
Speaker 1: and he's getting plenty of reps. He'll get every rep
Speaker 1: that he needs and uh, you know when they do
Speaker 1: thump drill in the team process, he's getting what he needs.
Speaker 1: Just don't bring him to the ground, and don't let
Speaker 1: anybody in the preseason bring him to the ground. You know,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe he may as Again I say this as
Speaker 1: a as a former player, but you want to go
Speaker 1: through and check all the boxes, Well, maybe he wants
Speaker 1: to have a box checked where he has a couple
Speaker 1: of three carries to get hit, get back up and
Speaker 1: make sure that everything's good. Last thing hasn't have been
Speaker 1: nice at training camp to be able to get up
Speaker 1: close and personal and see the various trills from a
Speaker 1: few feet away as opposed to last year where we
Speaker 1: had to stand on the very periphery. Yeah, Dan, that's
Speaker 1: that's a great, a great point. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: you can tell a lot by looking into a guy's eyes,
Speaker 1: you know. And the thing you talked about at the
Speaker 1: end of practice with Anthony and I when I looked
Speaker 1: at those guys and when Anthony was talking and I
Speaker 1: looked at him and looked at them. Man, you talk
Speaker 1: about laser focus and just just you know, absorbing and
Speaker 1: living on every single word. That kind of stuff is powerful,
Speaker 1: you know. You see, you can tell if a message
Speaker 1: is being delivered. A coach can tell easier than zoom.
Speaker 1: You know, when you're you're in a meeting room with
Speaker 1: guys and everything that goes along with it. Plus you know,
Speaker 1: just building relationships with teammates face to face. You gotta
Speaker 1: be able to do that. You gotta be able to
Speaker 1: shake that guy's hand, look in his eyes, see what
Speaker 1: he's all about. Appreciate this. Thank you, you're the best, sir.
Speaker 1: The Bengals Booth Podcast is presented by Bud Light Seltzer.
Speaker 1: It's light and refreshing with a hint of fruit flavor.
Speaker 1: The foot All Outsiders Almanac went on sale a few
Speaker 1: weeks ago, and I purchased a copy the first day
Speaker 1: it was available. I love it. There's a chapter on
Speaker 1: all thirty two teams featuring great statistical analysis, but more importantly,
Speaker 1: very entertaining writing. One of the writers is Robert Weintraub,
Speaker 1: and the name might sound familiar since he also writes
Speaker 1: about the Bengals for Cincinnati magazine. Robert, Before we get
Speaker 1: to this year's Football Outsiders Almanac, let's start with your
Speaker 1: thoughts on the team. Because you don't hide the fact
Speaker 1: that you are a Bengals fan at heart. What gives
Speaker 1: you hope, what gives you concern? Well, yes, I am
Speaker 1: a Bengals fan, both at heart and deep in my soul.
Speaker 1: Then thank you, And you know, obviously my concerns are
Speaker 1: several fold, one being just kind of the last five
Speaker 1: years of futility and the fact that you know, there's
Speaker 1: not necessarily been a massive change except the quarterback. And
Speaker 1: that leads to my next particular concern, which is that
Speaker 1: you know we're we're all been kind of banking on
Speaker 1: the fact that Joe Burrow is fully healthy again. He
Speaker 1: seems like he's okay. He's running around and training camp
Speaker 1: like he's you know, back to one hundred percent, But
Speaker 1: we'll never really know until he gets out there, faces
Speaker 1: a real pass rush, tries to avoid, you know, a
Speaker 1: three hundred pound man with evil intentions, trying to plant
Speaker 1: them back into the turf, or stepping up into the
Speaker 1: pocket with guys rolling around at his feet, that kind
Speaker 1: of thing. And you know, I have every hope and
Speaker 1: I optimism that he'll be at least right back to normal,
Speaker 1: but there's always going to be in the back of
Speaker 1: his mind, and certainly in the back of all of
Speaker 1: our minds, you know, the worry that it's going to
Speaker 1: take a while and he won't quite be the special athlete,
Speaker 1: slash escape artist, slash udde man that we saw in
Speaker 1: the first Apple last season before the unfortunate injury, And
Speaker 1: you always have to be considering that in the back
Speaker 1: of our minds it could happen again. This could happen again.
Speaker 1: So that's really the main thing. Otherwise, I'm fairly optimistic,
Speaker 1: certainly about the offense. I think the addition of Jamar.
Speaker 1: Chase is certainly going to bring an explosivelopment that's been
Speaker 1: missing the last couple of years. And you know, in
Speaker 1: terms of the offensive line, while I think you and
Speaker 1: I were both teams Sewell, you know, the offensive line
Speaker 1: is not going to be quite the drawback the anchor
Speaker 1: maybe that it has been in recent years. It can
Speaker 1: be upgraded still, I believe, and they can improve, certainly
Speaker 1: with Frank Pollock there to shepherd the guys to shape.
Speaker 1: I have a great optimism about his capabilities. So it's,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of a guarded optimism, but it's it's
Speaker 1: also you know, a realistic realism that's tempered by the
Speaker 1: fact that I've been optimistic in this way the last
Speaker 1: few years as well hasn't necessarily worked out. So before
Speaker 1: they before I really go and Overhaug of my optimism
Speaker 1: and my deep in my soul Bengal fandom, they have
Speaker 1: to prove it to me a little bit before I
Speaker 1: really jump right back in with both feet. Let's say
Speaker 1: fair enough. I think any Bengals fan can understand that.
Speaker 1: And more on Chase versus Sewell to come. But you
Speaker 1: wrote the Bengals chapter in last year's Almanact. Mike Tanyer
Speaker 1: wrote it this year and he didn't pull any punches.
Speaker 1: Before we get to specifics about that chapter, how do
Speaker 1: those assignments work. Do you like to switch it up
Speaker 1: from year to year? Yeah, we uh, you know, bounce around.
Speaker 1: I usually stick with the AFC North just because of
Speaker 1: my familiarity to it. And you know, it's always good.
Speaker 1: It's generally speaking, a two out of every three year
Speaker 1: kind of deal with the Bengals, or you know, has
Speaker 1: been every other year in the last couple of years
Speaker 1: for me, just to give somebody else a chance to
Speaker 1: you know, observe the team. I thought in this case,
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, Mike ten year this year, and it's
Speaker 1: good from the aspect of letting Bengal fans kind of
Speaker 1: know how the outside world sort of sees them, you know,
Speaker 1: how a neutral observer sees them. And as you say,
Speaker 1: he didn't pull any punches. So I did. The Cleveland
Speaker 1: Browns one of my teams this year, and in Cleveland
Speaker 1: there's nothing but unbridled optimism there. And you know, something
Speaker 1: I've done in the past and did again this year
Speaker 1: was used the figures and the stats to throw a
Speaker 1: little cold water on those optimistic dreams. So it works
Speaker 1: both ways. You know, I don't know that I'm overly
Speaker 1: optimistic or view the Bengals through rose colored glasses when
Speaker 1: I write about them for Football Outsiders, but perhaps somebody
Speaker 1: else coming in from a different perspective will and doesn't
Speaker 1: necessarily have the same history with the team that I have,
Speaker 1: will look at some of their moves in a different
Speaker 1: perspective and see them, in this case much more negatively,
Speaker 1: And people will probably accuse me of doing the same
Speaker 1: for Cleveland and Pittsburgh as well, who I wrote about
Speaker 1: this year. So it's a good opportunity for everybody to
Speaker 1: switch around and sort of take other perspectives on teams
Speaker 1: that you don't get locked down and caught in the
Speaker 1: minutia every single year writing about the same team we
Speaker 1: are talking to. Robert Weintrauba writes about the NFL for
Speaker 1: Football Outsiders, He writes about the Bengals for Cincinnati Magazine,
Speaker 1: and he is also the author of several books, including
Speaker 1: The Divine Miss Marble, which comes out in paperback next week. Robert,
Speaker 1: most analytic or analytical websites, including Pro Football Focus, seem
Speaker 1: to think the Bengals got it right by choosing Jabar
Speaker 1: Chase instead of Pinney Sewell. As you mentioned earlier, we
Speaker 1: were both team Sewell prior to the draft. The Football
Speaker 1: Outsiders Almanac was very critical of that move in a
Speaker 1: nutshell why well, I think from that perspective it was
Speaker 1: and from mine too, It's less about the cape abilities
Speaker 1: of the two players. I certainly believe that jo Mar
Speaker 1: Chase will be very good. I don't think anybody who's
Speaker 1: seen him play at LSU or you know, figure how
Speaker 1: him and Joe Burrow going to reconnect their unique chemistry
Speaker 1: and Cincinnati have any doubt that he's going to be
Speaker 1: a stud in the NFL. It's more about like a
Speaker 1: team building concept, especially for me. You know, what do
Speaker 1: you want to be as a team. The Bengals have
Speaker 1: historically had good wide receivers, high flying offenses, and you
Speaker 1: know where's it gotten them. They've had good offensive lines
Speaker 1: in the past too, and when they've been really successful
Speaker 1: it's when they could bull the other teams and be
Speaker 1: an offensive line centric team that unlocked all the skill
Speaker 1: position guys. And you know, as we saw in years past.
Speaker 1: Over the last few years, the skill position guys tend
Speaker 1: to get injured. You know, your skill players come and go,
Speaker 1: they wax and wayne. If you have an offensive line
Speaker 1: that is a healthy obviously, but be talented and works
Speaker 1: together as a cohesive unit and a strength of your
Speaker 1: team rather than you know, either a drawback or just
Speaker 1: kind of a middling part of your team. If it's
Speaker 1: a real strength of your team that can that can
Speaker 1: unlock your offense even if your skill guys are not
Speaker 1: so great or injured or you know, all the things
Speaker 1: that happened during a season that you don't expect. And
Speaker 1: it's also just sort of a mindset of the team,
Speaker 1: a sort of you know, a loadstone, if you will,
Speaker 1: where you look at them and say, oh, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a team that's going to come in here and pound
Speaker 1: us with their offensive line, and whether or not we
Speaker 1: know it's coming, we're not gonna be able to stop it.
Speaker 1: I think so in Cleveland last year, they made the
Speaker 1: sort of internal decision to become an offensive line cent
Speaker 1: your team. They signed a guy who turned out to
Speaker 1: be an all protacle, they drafted another in the first round,
Speaker 1: and they basically said, we're going to run the ball,
Speaker 1: try and stop us, and most teams couldn't. And they
Speaker 1: were very effective as we saw, So you know, I
Speaker 1: kind of was jealous of that, I guess you say.
Speaker 1: And I've always thought that that's kind of the way
Speaker 1: it all outsiders, We've always had the precept they build
Speaker 1: from the inside, out from the trenches and then out
Speaker 1: to the perimeter. And I think, generally speaking, football history
Speaker 1: has proven us correct. There have been exceptions, of course,
Speaker 1: and since then he has had good teams with you know,
Speaker 1: middling offensive lines, and they've got great teams with great
Speaker 1: offensive lines. I sort of wanted to get back to that.
Speaker 1: And drafting Sewell was regardless of him as a player personally.
Speaker 1: You know, he's obviously a great prospect, but there are others.
Speaker 1: But the idea was the focus with all intentions on
Speaker 1: the offensive line. And when Mike wrote what he wrote
Speaker 1: in the chapter this year, it was less about Sewell
Speaker 1: himself than it was sort of the five year holistic
Speaker 1: look at the team and thinking, you know, while they
Speaker 1: have tried and have put some resources into the line,
Speaker 1: they could have done much more. And when you have
Speaker 1: and that' said like Joe Burrow, everything has to be
Speaker 1: evolve around protecting him. So I think that's where he
Speaker 1: was coming from. That's certainly where I'm coming from. I
Speaker 1: think it's where you were coming from, and all of
Speaker 1: us Team Seoel types are coming from. But you know,
Speaker 1: we have Jamar Chase now, and there's certainly nothing wrong
Speaker 1: with him, and I think we can all get behind
Speaker 1: the fact that throwing the ball and having as many
Speaker 1: weapons as possible in the modern NFL is a good
Speaker 1: plan of attack as well. I just prefer to be
Speaker 1: more of a physical brand. Call me a throwback and
Speaker 1: Neanderthal school, whatever you wanted to be. I like my
Speaker 1: football to be about burying the guy in front of me,
Speaker 1: not necessarily running around him. I kind of like Neanderthal.
Speaker 1: I think I'm going to refer the US and Neanderthal.
Speaker 1: I will say this about the Sewel versus Chase debate.
Speaker 1: Prior to the draft, very much Team Sewel. But after
Speaker 1: the first round, when I looked at the remaining wide
Speaker 1: receivers left versus the remaining offensive lineman left, I do
Speaker 1: think that the package of Chase plus Carmen might be
Speaker 1: better for the Bengals than any package of Sewel plus
Speaker 1: the remaining wide receivers out there. I mean, that's a
Speaker 1: fair assessment, and I certainly go that way myself. I
Speaker 1: guess what I would say is, if you have a
Speaker 1: quarterback the level of Joe Burrow, he can make any
Speaker 1: wide receiver that you were going to take in the
Speaker 1: second round look like a guy who maybe we don't
Speaker 1: know is going to be as good as say Jamar
Speaker 1: Chase or whoever whomever they could possibly have gotten. The
Speaker 1: idea is that when you have a guy that good,
Speaker 1: you know he's going to do his magic. What you
Speaker 1: have to do to benefit him is, you know, keep
Speaker 1: him from the stuff that he has no control over.
Speaker 1: He has the control over getting the ball out to
Speaker 1: his receivers, and yes, Jamar Chase is going to help
Speaker 1: him in that respect and that respect, but the thing
Speaker 1: he has no control over is getting walloped from the
Speaker 1: blinds that or guys falling around his knees as we saw,
Speaker 1: and to me, that was the most important place to
Speaker 1: go in terms of building the team. But you know,
Speaker 1: I don't disagree, and I certainly don't believe the Chase
Speaker 1: was a bad pick. It's more about a team kind
Speaker 1: As we said before, how do you build your team?
Speaker 1: What's your overall strategy? Where do you want your main
Speaker 1: resources to go? And I think in this case I
Speaker 1: would have gone offensive flot. We're talking to Robert Weintraub.
Speaker 1: You can follow them on Twitter at rob wine wi N.
Speaker 1: This year's almanac is nearly five hundred pages long. In
Speaker 1: addition to some very entertaining writing about all thirty two teams,
Speaker 1: there's a ton of statistical data. Is there anything along
Speaker 1: those lines that you found especially revealing where the Bengals
Speaker 1: are concerned? There were a few things. I think I'd
Speaker 1: probably start with the defense, which we don't really talk
Speaker 1: about as much leading up to this in this offseason
Speaker 1: because everything was so much about Suell versus Chase and
Speaker 1: how the offense should be built. You know, the defense
Speaker 1: obviously wasn't good and hasn't been good in a while,
Speaker 1: but in breaking the numbers down, we found that in
Speaker 1: the first quarter of games last year they were actually
Speaker 1: a top five defense by our efficiency numbers, which are
Speaker 1: called DVA. I won't get into the higher math, but
Speaker 1: basically it's all about a play per play kind of
Speaker 1: efficiency and how good are you from preventing the other
Speaker 1: team from getting first downs and getting moving the sticks
Speaker 1: and keeping the ball. And then the first quarter of
Speaker 1: the Bengals were excellent. Problem was in the second through
Speaker 1: the fourth quarters they were thirty first in the league. Now,
Speaker 1: why does that happen? I mean, I think there's a
Speaker 1: combination of things. Is it the adjustments that were either
Speaker 1: made or not made by lu and Rumo and then
Speaker 1: the coaching staff? Is it a stamin of thing? I
Speaker 1: personally come down on depth. I think we know that
Speaker 1: the Bengals were reduced to playing a lot of guys
Speaker 1: who barely knew where the bathrooms were in Paul Brown Stadium,
Speaker 1: much less you know the complexities of a stunt or
Speaker 1: a cloud coverage or anything like that. So you know,
Speaker 1: when you get down to using guys like that, it's
Speaker 1: obviously going to be difficult. I think their approach this
Speaker 1: off season was to get not so much the top
Speaker 1: one through five guys sorted on your defense, but ten
Speaker 1: through sixteen, and so when the inevitable injuries come around,
Speaker 1: they'd be in better shape than they were last year.
Speaker 1: They were running out guys who really had no business
Speaker 1: on an NFL field last year, and you know, with
Speaker 1: the addition of guys like you know, smaller level of
Speaker 1: guys Ricardo Allen, Eli Apple, guys like that who aren't
Speaker 1: you know, big names and aren't Hopefully you're going to
Speaker 1: make a huge impact. But when the time comes and
Speaker 1: the you know, guys in front of them get injured,
Speaker 1: or they have to play laden games because other guys
Speaker 1: are tired, or just because of schematics, you have a
Speaker 1: guy who's who's an NFL VET, who knows what he's
Speaker 1: doing out there. So I thought the stats reveal sort
Speaker 1: of an interesting team building building concept in that sense
Speaker 1: on the defensive side, which I wasn't really aware of
Speaker 1: during the season. Necessarily, Robert, as you mentioned, you wrote
Speaker 1: to Cleveland and Pittsburgh chapters this year in the Almanac,
Speaker 1: and the Browns chapter definitely surprised me because the data
Speaker 1: projects Cleveland to win one more game than Cincinnati and
Speaker 1: to finish behind ball More and Pittsburgh. What do those
Speaker 1: numbers say about the Browns? Well, a lot of things.
Speaker 1: First of all, you have to remember that the way
Speaker 1: we do projections for a season is sort of a range, right.
Speaker 1: It's not saying they're definitely the Browns are definitely going
Speaker 1: to finish ten and seven or nine and eight, And boy,
Speaker 1: that's weird just still doing that for seventeenth game I
Speaker 1: guess we'll all get used to it. But you know,
Speaker 1: basically what happens is we played the season out one
Speaker 1: million times via some supercomputer in a lab somewhere, and then,
Speaker 1: you know, using our numbers, we then assign ranges of
Speaker 1: probabilities for the overall results of these seasons, and basically,
Speaker 1: you know, we break it down by you know, zero
Speaker 1: to five wins being a terrible team, mediocre, six to eight,
Speaker 1: nine to eleven being a playoff contender, and then twelve
Speaker 1: or more being a super Bowl contender. And yeah, the
Speaker 1: Browns the preponderance like seventy, we're in the six to
Speaker 1: eleven win range. Now, obviously eleven wins is a lot
Speaker 1: different than six, so you're talking about, you know, a
Speaker 1: decently wide variety there. But I think most people imagine
Speaker 1: that Browns are going to be a super Bowl contender
Speaker 1: and you know, twelve or more wins, and the numbers
Speaker 1: just aren't there a lot of the reasons why. First
Speaker 1: of all, last year was sort of a hollow eleven
Speaker 1: and five season for them. They didn't even score more
Speaker 1: points than they gave up during the year. They were
Speaker 1: one of the worst teams by our numbers ever to
Speaker 1: finish eleven and five. They had unusually healthy offensive line.
Speaker 1: You know, I think they had seventy four out of
Speaker 1: eighty potential started games started by their five guys up runt,
Speaker 1: which is unusual and usually bounces back. They had a
Speaker 1: great number of turnovers, even though their defensive numbers were
Speaker 1: not good. They were a bottom ten defense, but they
Speaker 1: were a top ten defense and forcing turnovers per drive.
Speaker 1: And that's also another stat that usually redounds the other
Speaker 1: way from year year. And you look at their team,
Speaker 1: I mean, they know, they knew in Cleveland that their
Speaker 1: defense was shotty last year, and they brought in a
Speaker 1: whole raft of new guys. They could have as many
Speaker 1: as nine new starters on their defensive side, and certainly
Speaker 1: you would imagine that'll take a while to work out.
Speaker 1: Gets them cohesionly going on defense there. So and you know,
Speaker 1: it's not definite that they're even that much of a
Speaker 1: talent upgrade. It seems like they are, but we'll see. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, there's guarded optimism. There's reasons for them to
Speaker 1: be optimistic based them. Like we were talking earlier, you know,
Speaker 1: their basic principal last year in offense was we're going
Speaker 1: to run it down your throat and nobody could stop them.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's going to change all that much.
Speaker 1: Baker Mayfield certainly responded well to Kevin Stefanski's coaching and
Speaker 1: the way that they made him more comfortable in the
Speaker 1: pocket and got him outside the pocket where he's much
Speaker 1: more of a threat than he is really inside the
Speaker 1: pocket given his size and in accuracy concerns. So you know,
Speaker 1: there's certainly reason for them to believe that they'll be
Speaker 1: in the mix. Just maybe don't buy those Super Bowl
Speaker 1: tickets just yet. Well, on the flip side, while the
Speaker 1: rest of the football world seems to think the Steelers
Speaker 1: are steeply declining, football outsiders doesn't necessarily see that make
Speaker 1: the case for Pittsburgh still being good. First of all,
Speaker 1: their defense is still really good, and we project them
Speaker 1: to be the number one defense again this season. I
Speaker 1: think they're on the seventy three games sax streak something
Speaker 1: like that. They get death in bush back, you know
Speaker 1: they're still gonna be helping enemy quarterbacks girls, including Joe Burrow,
Speaker 1: and they have better prepare for that. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: there's also the case, just from a Bengal fan, perspective.
Speaker 1: You know, wish casting Pittsburgh to be bad usually doesn't
Speaker 1: turn out very well for all of us. You know,
Speaker 1: we find up getting our faces planted in the turf
Speaker 1: by their black and gold cleats. So let's just that
Speaker 1: part of it is like I don't want to come
Speaker 1: out and be thinking all the Steelers are going to
Speaker 1: stink this year because that that hardly ever turned to
Speaker 1: well for Cincinnati. But they have, you know, some elements
Speaker 1: that their team that are still going to work. Beside
Speaker 1: the defense, you know, the question is their depth. I
Speaker 1: think you'd see say it's safe to say their offensive
Speaker 1: line is as questionable, if not more so than Cincinnati's.
Speaker 1: And you know, the running game was awful last year.
Speaker 1: They did draft Naja Harris, who hopes to be certainly
Speaker 1: an excellent addition to their backfield, but you know, running
Speaker 1: backs without an offensive line that's that's doing the job
Speaker 1: up front or are questionable picks in the first round.
Speaker 1: So I can understand the reticence around the nation to
Speaker 1: think that Pittsburgh is going to be the same old Steelers.
Speaker 1: We don't necessarily think that they're going to be the
Speaker 1: same old Steelers either. We kind of put them in
Speaker 1: the same range as the Browns. They could win six, seven,
Speaker 1: eight games, or they could easily sneak a couple others,
Speaker 1: win nine or ten, get into the playoffs, and then
Speaker 1: you know it's right or die with Ben roethlis Burger.
Speaker 1: Is Ben Roethlisberger the same Ben Roethlisberger that's been plaguing
Speaker 1: us for these last couple of decades in Cincinnati? Or
Speaker 1: is he the guy that at the end of last
Speaker 1: year fall off a cliff. You know, that's not really
Speaker 1: a question that the numbers can answer, per se. We
Speaker 1: forecast him to be somewhere in between. That's usually good
Speaker 1: enough at least with the Steelers, the rest of the
Speaker 1: pieces that they have, barring any huge injuries to the
Speaker 1: key guys like t. J. Watt, let's say, or Menca Fitzpatrick,
Speaker 1: you know, that should be enough to still get them
Speaker 1: in the playoff mix right there with the Browns and
Speaker 1: the Ravens and hopefully the Bengals. This should be a
Speaker 1: good four team race. You know, we don't have the
Speaker 1: Bengals necessarily being a bad team in terms of our
Speaker 1: projections that it's just they have a much more wider
Speaker 1: range and many more possibilities of falling away than the
Speaker 1: other three teams because of their history. But you know,
Speaker 1: I think we all think, just based on the personnel,
Speaker 1: that they should have a fighting chance. It's they'll come
Speaker 1: down to the close games like it always does. The
Speaker 1: last couple of years. The Bengals I've shown they can't
Speaker 1: win those, that's been the problem, whereas Pittsburgh has shown
Speaker 1: that they can. I think right there, that's the main
Speaker 1: difference in our projections, and you know it has to
Speaker 1: be proven on the field before our algorithms will really
Speaker 1: reflect that. You know, we don't. We don't truck We
Speaker 1: don't truck in in what we think will happen. We
Speaker 1: truck in what we've seen before. So that's really the
Speaker 1: main reason Pittsburgh ranks higher than both the Browns and
Speaker 1: the Bengals, at least at this point. So you give
Speaker 1: the Bengals a thirty five percent chance of winning nine
Speaker 1: or more games and going to the playoffs, what has
Speaker 1: to go right for that to happen. Well, let's start
Speaker 1: up front. Obviously, you know, it goes without saying Joe
Speaker 1: has to play the entire seasons. That goes without saying.
Speaker 1: I think the other Joe Joe Mixon is in a
Speaker 1: similar boat. You know, without Joe Bernard backing him up,
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the Bengals look a bit thin
Speaker 1: in the backfield. And this is a guy Joe Mixon,
Speaker 1: who only played six games last season, and it's coming
Speaker 1: of a foot injury, not necessarily something you want to
Speaker 1: be dealing with as a running back. Based on your
Speaker 1: agility and your acceleration that kind of thing, we all
Speaker 1: think he'll be perfectly fine, but again we don't know that.
Speaker 1: So their health and overall health, which has been an
Speaker 1: illusive concept in Cincinnati for some time, that's obviously key
Speaker 1: number one. Nutrition in the NFL is the most important
Speaker 1: factor really year after year. He saw just with Tampa
Speaker 1: Bay last year. I think what we also need to
Speaker 1: see is, as I mentioned before, and improving in those
Speaker 1: defensive numbers and specifically situational numbers. And I think they
Speaker 1: have to and they almost certainly have nowhere to go
Speaker 1: but up since they finished last in the league and
Speaker 1: read its own offense last year. Those situational plays down deep,
Speaker 1: that's really where they really got injured last year, literally
Speaker 1: and figuratively when Burrow went down their red zone efficiency
Speaker 1: fell off a cliff, and you know, it's so much
Speaker 1: of football. We tend to think of it as, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, this team stinks because they only won five
Speaker 1: games or six games or whatever it is. But think
Speaker 1: about how many games in the last couple of years
Speaker 1: have come down to a play, two plays, one drive.
Speaker 1: You know, it's really improving in those key situations. And
Speaker 1: I think that's what they we're thinking again, as I
Speaker 1: mentioned before, by improving the depth and having guys on
Speaker 1: the field and key situations that know what they're doing
Speaker 1: and aren't going to give up a key first down
Speaker 1: or not get open in the key situation on the
Speaker 1: offensive end, not miss a big block in this key situation.
Speaker 1: That's really what it comes down to for them. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: they have improven that they can do that over the
Speaker 1: last couple of years. And I don't know where Zach
Speaker 1: Taylor can say to himself, all right, we really have
Speaker 1: to stress late game, key game situations. We can practice
Speaker 1: as much as we want, but you kind of have
Speaker 1: to indom to prove that you can do it before
Speaker 1: you can get anywhere as a team. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's just going to have to be done on the field,
Speaker 1: and you know, for that thirty five percent number to
Speaker 1: be realized, they're going to have to show that they
Speaker 1: can they can do it and do it consistently. Final
Speaker 1: question for Robert Weintraub, who writes about the NFL for
Speaker 1: Football Outsiders and the Bengals for Cincinnati Magazine. You're working
Speaker 1: on a profile I'm my broadcast partner Dave Lapham. What
Speaker 1: inspired you to write about lap Obviously I'm in favor
Speaker 1: and when can we look forward to seeing that? Well,
Speaker 1: that'll be out relatively soon next month's issue of Cincinnati Magazine,
Speaker 1: indeed the September issue, I guess, coinciding with the beginning
Speaker 1: of the NFL. Yeah, Dave, Well, you know, as you
Speaker 1: well know, he's a great guy and excellent at his
Speaker 1: craft and somebody who's, you know, kind of a key
Speaker 1: figure in Cincinnati and Cincinnati sports. But I just felt
Speaker 1: he was sort of own certainly his background. Everybody knows
Speaker 1: he plays for the Bengals, and he's been associated with
Speaker 1: a team for so long. It could have been shown
Speaker 1: Oaxhall figure in stripes, if you will. But I know
Speaker 1: I didn't know very much about his background and what
Speaker 1: made him take his motivations, etc. And I figured I
Speaker 1: was as big a fan as anybody else out there,
Speaker 1: and if I didn't know much about him, there were
Speaker 1: probably a lot of people out there who felt likewise.
Speaker 1: So he just seemed like a natural subject for somebody
Speaker 1: who's been kind of hiding in playing sight all these years.
Speaker 1: So I got a chance to hang out with him
Speaker 1: and talk to him, and he proved to be, you know,
Speaker 1: not just as nice as a guy as we all
Speaker 1: know he would be, but pretty deep and pretty feeling
Speaker 1: and had some interesting things to say about a variety
Speaker 1: of subjects. So hopefully you'll everybody out there will check
Speaker 1: it out and read about a guy who, you know,
Speaker 1: we all kind of take for granted lower these many years,
Speaker 1: but has obviously been a crucial part of the franchise
Speaker 1: and the city of Cincinnati for so long. I can't wait.
Speaker 1: I'm sure it'll be a great read. And speaking of that,
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier that the book he wrote last year,
Speaker 1: The Divine Miss Marble, is about to come out in paperback.
Speaker 1: For those who have never heard of Alice Marble, tell
Speaker 1: us a little bit about her. How is that possible, Dan,
Speaker 1: No one's heard of her? The truth as I had
Speaker 1: never heard of her until I kind of stumbled across
Speaker 1: her name one day, so I don't blame anyone. She
Speaker 1: was the foremost female tennis player in the world in
Speaker 1: the years right before World War Two, the late mid
Speaker 1: to late nineteen thirties, had her career and dominance in
Speaker 1: the sport basically ended by the war, and then wound
Speaker 1: up being recruited to be an spionnage agent for the
Speaker 1: US and pretty US military during the war. And from
Speaker 1: there many many interesting and questionable things proceeded. To have
Speaker 1: to beat the book to really get into why, but
Speaker 1: it's a place to say I became a detective as
Speaker 1: part of this story. I owned out reams and reams
Speaker 1: of information about a fascinating woman who went and had
Speaker 1: influence far beyond the tennis court in her life and
Speaker 1: really overcame immense obstacles to achieve what she did. So
Speaker 1: she's really a fascinating figure and I was really lucky
Speaker 1: to be able to write about her. So hopefully people
Speaker 1: will take the opportunity to read about her. I know
Speaker 1: it's it's worthwhile. Robert, thanks so much for the time.
Speaker 1: I always appreciate it. Anytime, dam thank you appreciate it.
Speaker 1: That's going to do it. For this episode of the
Speaker 1: Bengals Booth Podcast, brought to you by bud Light, Seltzer
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Speaker 1: find this podcast. I'm Dan Horde and thank you for
Speaker 1: listening to the Bengals Booth Podcast