WEBVTT - Misfiled

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<v Speaker 1>Last time on ear witness.

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<v Speaker 2>Bolly that was walking that door, scanting up on this

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<v Speaker 2>table and say what she said?

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<v Speaker 3>We got a full table.

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<v Speaker 4>Now we got all the evidence we.

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<v Speaker 2>Need this Alison, would you tell us about the information

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<v Speaker 2>that you.

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<v Speaker 5>Have for us?

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<v Speaker 6>Yes, my door to use her three way to call

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<v Speaker 6>for his homeboy, and he named the name is to

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<v Speaker 6>Borrow Johnson.

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<v Speaker 3>We had a weak case.

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<v Speaker 7>It's based on testimony in one witness.

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<v Speaker 4>The only evidence supposedly they had against was this ear

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<v Speaker 4>witness who had never heard him speak before, who had

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<v Speaker 4>no idea who he was.

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<v Speaker 5>This case is all about alternative worlds that are in

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<v Speaker 5>conflict with each other and in conflict with truth, and

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<v Speaker 5>in conflict with what our justice system stands for.

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<v Speaker 4>We forget sometime that there was a third person on

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<v Speaker 4>that phone who told him to discredits what this lady says.

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<v Speaker 4>She heard you know what I mean? And now how close,

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<v Speaker 4>how much closer can you get than that?

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<v Speaker 1>Why did the jury believe this woman who eavesdrop on

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<v Speaker 1>the call over you who actually had.

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<v Speaker 2>On the call.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't understand.

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<v Speaker 2>I never understood that.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, the victim's family deserve to know what happened

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<v Speaker 4>to their loved one. But they get no justice, no

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<v Speaker 4>peace out of a wrongful conviction, you know, And this

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<v Speaker 4>is simply a case of does anybody all do do.

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<v Speaker 1>You remember the first time you met him? At Ty

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<v Speaker 1>Alper was just starting out his legal career at the

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<v Speaker 1>Southern Center for Human Rights when he met to Forest Johnson.

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<v Speaker 1>To Forest was one of the first people on death

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<v Speaker 1>row that Ty'd been assigned to represent. In January of

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<v Speaker 1>two thousand and three, ty gets into one of the

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<v Speaker 1>old Volvos that the Southern Center had in their parking

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<v Speaker 1>lot in Atlanta and drives four hours south to Holman

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<v Speaker 1>Prison and at Moore, Alabama.

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<v Speaker 2>The first time I met him was down at Holman.

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<v Speaker 2>I was by myself and well, I was going to

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<v Speaker 2>go down and make sure that he was okay with

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<v Speaker 2>us representing him and to sort of tell him where

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<v Speaker 2>his case was.

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<v Speaker 1>Tye is twenty nine years old, and here's what he knows.

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<v Speaker 1>To Forest Johnson is just eight months old than he is,

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<v Speaker 1>and he's been on death row for over four years

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<v Speaker 1>for a crime he says he did not commit. When

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<v Speaker 1>ty finally gets inside the prison, he's taken to a

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<v Speaker 1>room called the visiting yard, but it isn't a yard

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<v Speaker 1>at all. It looks like a middle school cafeteria surrounded

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<v Speaker 1>by plexiglass. Outside the plexiglass, correctional officers and men in

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<v Speaker 1>prison uniforms, white slacks, white shirt with Alabama Department of

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<v Speaker 1>Corrections stamped on the back are walking by. Inside, there's

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<v Speaker 1>no ac and the sad attempt of cooling the room

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<v Speaker 1>is left to metal fans that hang in the corners

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<v Speaker 1>to forrest sits at a table in a plastic chair

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<v Speaker 1>across from Tye. Ty tries to talk quietly so he

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't disturb other lawyers working with their clients on the yard,

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<v Speaker 1>but loud enough to be heard over the roar of

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<v Speaker 1>the fans.

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<v Speaker 2>And I remember saying to him, you know, mister Johnson,

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<v Speaker 2>I want you to know we're at the very early

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<v Speaker 2>stages of your appeals. There's many rounds of appeals to go.

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<v Speaker 2>We're going to file a petition in the US Supreme Court.

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<v Speaker 2>Then we're going to go back into state court. If

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<v Speaker 2>we lose there, we're going to go back into federal court,

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<v Speaker 2>and all this could take many years. And he just

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<v Speaker 2>started crying, and I assumed that he was upset because

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<v Speaker 2>I knew that he had claimed that he was claiming

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<v Speaker 2>he was innocent, and I assumed that he was upset

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<v Speaker 2>that this was going to take so long, and I

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<v Speaker 2>asked him what was wrong, and he said that he

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<v Speaker 2>was so happy because he had just assumed that they

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<v Speaker 2>could come any minute and take him to be executed.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was just the thing that struck me the most,

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<v Speaker 2>because not only had he been screwed over in pretty

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<v Speaker 2>much every possible way you can be, but nobody was

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<v Speaker 2>telling anything about what was going on in this case.

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<v Speaker 1>But to Forrest's days without a lawyer to fight for

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<v Speaker 1>him are over. It's now up to Tie and the

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<v Speaker 1>team of lawyers at the Southern Center to do what

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<v Speaker 1>no one has done before, thoroughly investigate to Forrest's conviction,

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<v Speaker 1>a conviction that hinged on the word and credibility of

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<v Speaker 1>a single witness, Violet Ellison.

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<v Speaker 8>Do you he my may.

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<v Speaker 7>Love, hads may.

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<v Speaker 4>Sorrowstp re lit.

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<v Speaker 7>In this b.

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<v Speaker 6>Both tears.

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<v Speaker 4>I want to see.

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<v Speaker 1>Revelation.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to know who you are.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm reation.

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<v Speaker 8>In thisspiration to the word Who's holding stands?

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<v Speaker 9>To the.

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<v Speaker 6>Who's holding the stand?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Beth Shelburne. This is ear witness, Chapter six misfiled.

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<v Speaker 1>After ty leaves Holman prison, he and the rest of

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<v Speaker 1>Taforest's new legal team go through the case. They need

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<v Speaker 1>to understand how their new client ended up on death row.

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<v Speaker 1>They hear about to Forest's alibi that he was at

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<v Speaker 1>Tea's place when Deputy Hardy was shot. They learn about

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<v Speaker 1>Yolanda Chambers changing stories. They read how the state presented

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<v Speaker 1>conflicting theories at different trials. Now it's clear to the

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<v Speaker 1>legal team to Forest Johnson did not kill Deputy Hardy.

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<v Speaker 1>The state's case completely revolved around Violet Ellison's testimony, so.

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<v Speaker 2>We knew that that was a potentially fruitful area to

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<v Speaker 2>investigate because she was the state's whole case.

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<v Speaker 1>They need to figure out whether they can challenge Violet

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<v Speaker 1>Ellison's testimony. If they can show that it wasn't reliable,

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<v Speaker 1>they can argue that to Forrest deserves a new trial.

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<v Speaker 1>So they need to know why did Violet Ellison come

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<v Speaker 1>forward in the first place. Prosecutor Jeff Wallace told two

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<v Speaker 1>juries that Violet was a credible witness, someone who overheard

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<v Speaker 1>to Forrest Johnson admit to the crime, and she came

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<v Speaker 1>forward because it was the right thing to do. But

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<v Speaker 1>there were other reasons Violet Ellison might have come forward.

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<v Speaker 2>We knew the reward was offered because it was all

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<v Speaker 2>over the papers, but we didn't know who got it,

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<v Speaker 2>or if Violet Elison got it.

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<v Speaker 1>The reward was not a secret. It was mentioned in

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<v Speaker 1>press releases and reported on TV news.

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<v Speaker 2>So the next step was okay. Well, were there questions

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<v Speaker 2>about her credibility that the juris already never heard, And

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<v Speaker 2>an obvious one was what was she paid for her testimony?

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<v Speaker 1>If Violet Ellison knew about the reward money before trial,

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<v Speaker 1>or even if she had qualified for the reward, the

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<v Speaker 1>jury should have been told this when they heard her testimony.

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<v Speaker 1>The legal issues here get complicated fast, but it's important

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<v Speaker 1>to understand that the prosecution must turn over anything that

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<v Speaker 1>would be helpful to the defense. It can be a

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<v Speaker 1>lead on another suspect, or some forensic report that casts

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<v Speaker 1>doubt on a piece of evidence, or information that calls

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<v Speaker 1>the credibility of a state's witness into question. This is

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<v Speaker 1>called Brady information, after a famous US Supreme Court case

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<v Speaker 1>called Brady v. Maryland. And if a court finds out

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<v Speaker 1>later that prosecutors failed to turn over Brady information, that's

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<v Speaker 1>a constitutional violation and the court will order a new trial.

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<v Speaker 1>So if prosecutors knew that Violet Ellison came forward looking

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<v Speaker 1>for the reward, they should have told to Forest trial

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<v Speaker 1>lawyers about it, and then they could have brought it

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<v Speaker 1>up at trial. They could have told the jury when

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<v Speaker 1>you go back and deliberate about Violet Ellison's testimony, Remember

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<v Speaker 1>there's a reward being offered and she wants that reward.

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<v Speaker 1>Are you sure money isn't part of the equation here?

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<v Speaker 1>But the jury never heard anything about the reward.

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<v Speaker 3>She was very credible.

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<v Speaker 1>Monique Hick was on the jury into Forrest's second trial

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<v Speaker 1>and she voted to convict to Forest based on Violet

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<v Speaker 1>Ellison's testimony.

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<v Speaker 3>She just seemed very truthful, like she had nothing to

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<v Speaker 3>gain by coming forward. She had heard this information and

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<v Speaker 3>she felt like I have to share this. She was

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<v Speaker 3>a very credible witness compared to some of the others

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<v Speaker 3>that took the sandlight. We believed her, obviously, we believed

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<v Speaker 3>her because we convicted him and it was on her testimony.

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<v Speaker 1>Overturning a conviction is damn near impossible. Our system prioritizes

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<v Speaker 1>finality in part because a jury's verdict is considered a

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<v Speaker 1>community statement and given great weight. So for to Forrest

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<v Speaker 1>to get a new trial, his lawyers needed to prove

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<v Speaker 1>two things that Violet Ellison came forward with her story

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<v Speaker 1>in the hopes of getting the reward, and that police

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<v Speaker 1>and prosecutors were aware of this true motive. There's one

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<v Speaker 1>big problem. If Violet Ellison had been paid, documentation of

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<v Speaker 1>the payment should have been into Forrest's case file, but

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<v Speaker 1>there wasn't anything there. Still, Tye and the other attorneys

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<v Speaker 1>had a hunch that Violet Ellison got the money. The

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<v Speaker 1>legal team tried calling everywhere they could, the Sheriff's office,

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<v Speaker 1>the Governor's office, the Record's division. What should have been

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<v Speaker 1>just a simple phone call turned into a multi week endeavor. Finally,

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<v Speaker 1>someone at the Governor's office said they might have something

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<v Speaker 1>and would send over a fax.

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<v Speaker 2>I do remember us all hovering around the facts machine

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<v Speaker 2>waiting to see what it was, because it was the

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<v Speaker 2>first time that anyone had acknowledged that there might be

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<v Speaker 2>something that was helpful.

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<v Speaker 1>The fax machine spits out a piece of paper signed

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<v Speaker 1>by Judge Alfred Bayhackle, the man who presided over to

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<v Speaker 1>Forrest's trials and sentenced him to death. The paper authorized

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<v Speaker 1>Violet Ellison to receive five thousand dollars in reward money

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<v Speaker 1>in exchange for her testimony that led to the conviction

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<v Speaker 1>of to Forest Johnson.

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<v Speaker 2>That was when we knew, okay, she did know about

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<v Speaker 2>this reward. She was motivated by the reward when she testified,

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<v Speaker 2>and the judge knew about it in an order that

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<v Speaker 2>was not included in the court file.

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<v Speaker 1>For to Forest's legal team. This was a huge first step.

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<v Speaker 1>The language in the court order said that Violet Ellison

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<v Speaker 1>came forward pursuant to the public offer of a reward.

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<v Speaker 1>And again, this authorization document was signed by the judge.

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<v Speaker 1>It's an official court document. It should have been into

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<v Speaker 1>Forrest's court file right there where everyone could see it,

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<v Speaker 1>but it wasn't. Instead, to Forest's legal team had to

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<v Speaker 1>go on a bureaucratic goose chase to find it was

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<v Speaker 1>someone trying to hide something. What other documents were missing

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<v Speaker 1>from the public file. So a young investigator working with

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<v Speaker 1>the Forest's legal team named Jason Marx went right to

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<v Speaker 1>the source. He walked up to Violet Ellison's house, holding

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<v Speaker 1>Judge Bahackle's court order that authorized her payment in one

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<v Speaker 1>hand and knocked on her front door with the other.

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<v Speaker 9>When I showed up at her house, he said something

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<v Speaker 9>about the phone calls, and I said, oh, I'm not

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<v Speaker 9>here to talk to you about the phone calls. I'm

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<v Speaker 9>here to talk about the reward that you got. And

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<v Speaker 9>that's when she said I didn't get a reward. I

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<v Speaker 9>was like, oh, well, that's funny. I was like, I

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<v Speaker 9>have some paperwork here that says you got a reward,

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<v Speaker 9>and so basically yeah. So basically confronted her with the document,

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<v Speaker 9>she said, oh, yeah, I did get a reward, got

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<v Speaker 9>five thousand dollars.

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<v Speaker 1>After initially denying it, Violet Ellison told Jason the state

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<v Speaker 1>paid her five thousand dollars for testifying against to Forrest Johnson.

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<v Speaker 2>We knew when we got the judge's order that he

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<v Speaker 2>had authorized the payment, and then she told us that

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<v Speaker 2>she got paid, so we knew it all. When you

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<v Speaker 2>take a step back, he's on death row because the

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<v Speaker 2>jury believed a woman who they didn't know is being

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<v Speaker 2>paid for her testimony, and that should cause real concerns

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<v Speaker 2>and questions about the validity of the conviction.

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<v Speaker 1>To Forest's legal team files a Brady claim against the

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<v Speaker 1>state that argues the jury into Forest's trial should have

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<v Speaker 1>heard about the reward, Violet Ellison knew about the reward

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<v Speaker 1>when she came forward, and that the state suppressed the

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<v Speaker 1>information on purpose. The state denies everything. They deny any

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<v Speaker 1>Brady violation, and they deny all of the allegations into

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<v Speaker 1>Forest's petition, including that Violet Ellison was motivated by the

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<v Speaker 1>reward and that she was paid five thousand dollars. But

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<v Speaker 1>to Forest's legal team has evidence to the contrary, the

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<v Speaker 1>court order that was faxed to them and Violet Ellison herself.

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<v Speaker 1>After the state submits a written denial of all of

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<v Speaker 1>the charges brought by to Forest's legal team, the case

0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:36.040
<v Speaker 1>heads to court, but Alabama courts won't hear the case.

0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:41.520
<v Speaker 1>They say the reward doesn't qualify as Brady, so the

0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:51.160
<v Speaker 1>appeal takes years to make its way through the courts.

0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:56.320
<v Speaker 1>When to Forest and Ty first met, to Forrest's five

0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:59.600
<v Speaker 1>kids were all under the age of ten, and as

0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:04.160
<v Speaker 1>the Braak claim crawls through the legal system, seventeen years

0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:09.119
<v Speaker 1>go by, to Forrest's oldest daughter has graduated college and

0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:17.280
<v Speaker 1>his four other kids are having kids of their own. Finally,

0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.480
<v Speaker 1>to Forest's legal team gets the case in front of

0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:25.399
<v Speaker 1>the United States Supreme Court. The justices tell the Alabama

0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:29.920
<v Speaker 1>courts that they're wrong for not reviewing to Forrest Brady claim.

0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:35.080
<v Speaker 1>The State of Alabama must hear the evidence about the reward.

0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.800
<v Speaker 1>Ahead of the hearing, Judge Teresa Pulliam gives the state

0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:46.800
<v Speaker 1>very clear orders.

0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.320
<v Speaker 2>You have to turn over everything, everything that you have

0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:52.600
<v Speaker 2>that concerns a reward payment. You have to turn it

0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:54.800
<v Speaker 2>over to mister Johnson's lawyers.

0:17:56.080 --> 0:18:00.240
<v Speaker 1>So the state gives to Forest's legal team what they

0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.800
<v Speaker 1>say are all of the documents about to Forest's case.

0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:09.040
<v Speaker 1>An attorney representing the state tells Judge Pulliam the files

0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:13.840
<v Speaker 1>contained nothing about anyone applying for a reward or being

0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:15.080
<v Speaker 1>granted a reward.

0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.320
<v Speaker 2>I think it was eight or nine banker's boxes of documents,

0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:23.840
<v Speaker 2>and we went through every single page looking for any

0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.119
<v Speaker 2>mention of a reward payment about Elson, and there was

0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:26.800
<v Speaker 2>nothing in there.

0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:31.040
<v Speaker 1>But then to Forest's legal team gets a tip from

0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:34.800
<v Speaker 1>an insider. The woman who served as office manager at

0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:38.119
<v Speaker 1>the Jefferson County District Attorney's office went to Forest was

0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:39.080
<v Speaker 1>on trial.

0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:42.480
<v Speaker 2>So she told us that if we were only looking

0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:46.439
<v Speaker 2>in the case file, we weren't looking everywhere. That the

0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:49.760
<v Speaker 2>documentation might be because they also had a reward file

0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:53.040
<v Speaker 2>that they kept separate from the case files that would

0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:58.639
<v Speaker 2>include paperwork and documentation of witnesses who had sought rewards

0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:00.440
<v Speaker 2>and or been paid rewards.

0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.680
<v Speaker 1>Reward information in the DA's office, according to this source,

0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:11.840
<v Speaker 1>was kept in a separate confidential file away from prosecutors

0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:16.480
<v Speaker 1>involved in trials like Jeff Wallace. This meant he couldn't

0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.399
<v Speaker 1>turn it over to to Forest lawyers because he didn't

0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:23.840
<v Speaker 1>know about it. To to Forest's attorneys, this meant the

0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:30.280
<v Speaker 1>information about the reward was kept from them intentionally suppressed.

0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:34.840
<v Speaker 1>The judge orders the DA's office to turn over this

0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.080
<v Speaker 1>separate confidential file.

0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:41.920
<v Speaker 2>We got an email that said, we found these documents.

0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:46.000
<v Speaker 2>They had been misfiled, and here they are.

0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:52.480
<v Speaker 1>Here they are. After seventeen years, the state finally turned

0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:56.520
<v Speaker 1>over every document to Forest lawyers had asked for the

0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:02.200
<v Speaker 1>hidden treasure trove. An application for the reward that's signed

0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:06.080
<v Speaker 1>by Violet Ellison, a copy of the actual check for

0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:11.000
<v Speaker 1>five thousand dollars made out to Violet Ellison, an email

0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:15.080
<v Speaker 1>exchange between District Attorney David Barber and the Governor's office

0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:19.200
<v Speaker 1>about how to pay the reward. And a letter from

0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:23.280
<v Speaker 1>DA Barber asking the governor to pay Violet Ellison the money,

0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:27.919
<v Speaker 1>saying that she came forward pursuant to the offer of

0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:42.040
<v Speaker 1>a reward. If this hidden information about the reward kept

0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:47.199
<v Speaker 1>away from to Forest lawyers for seventeen years doesn't count

0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:55.040
<v Speaker 1>as prosecutorial misconduct as a Brady violation, what does? But

0:20:55.160 --> 0:21:00.320
<v Speaker 1>according to the state, all of these documents were simply misfunnild.

0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:09.640
<v Speaker 1>When I hear misfiled, I imagine someone accidentally putting a document

0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:13.639
<v Speaker 1>into the wrong folder, or maybe a paper falling behind

0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:18.080
<v Speaker 1>a cabinet. But that's not what happened. It sounds like

0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:22.679
<v Speaker 1>they had it organized in a file they kept explicitly

0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:25.960
<v Speaker 1>for rewards, a file that no one seemed to know

0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:31.840
<v Speaker 1>about except the office manager and the DA himself, David Barber,

0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:36.560
<v Speaker 1>who headed the prosecutor's office. How is this acceptable?

0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:55.920
<v Speaker 3>Hello?

0:21:56.680 --> 0:22:01.240
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I was calling for David Barber speaking mister Barber.

0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:05.440
<v Speaker 1>My name is Beth Shelburne. I called David Barber, who's

0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:09.439
<v Speaker 1>now retired after serving as Jefferson County's top prosecutor for

0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:13.080
<v Speaker 1>twenty four years. He was DA when to Forest was

0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:17.760
<v Speaker 1>tried for capital murder and personally involved in the reward issue.

0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:21.400
<v Speaker 1>He wrote the letter asking the governor to pay Violet Ellison.

0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:26.440
<v Speaker 1>The defense team for mister Johnson didn't have any records

0:22:26.440 --> 0:22:30.240
<v Speaker 1>about the reward until twenty nineteen. The Attorney General's office

0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:35.240
<v Speaker 1>produced the records and said they had been misfiled. Okay,

0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:39.840
<v Speaker 1>does that sound strange to you or do you have

0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:41.240
<v Speaker 1>any idea how that could.

0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:42.000
<v Speaker 3>Have happened.

0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:45.719
<v Speaker 8>The AG's office. If they said he got misfiled, then

0:22:45.760 --> 0:22:47.640
<v Speaker 8>I guess he got misfiled. Human error.

0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:48.080
<v Speaker 9>I guess.

0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:50.680
<v Speaker 3>I don't know. I don't think.

0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:54.800
<v Speaker 8>I guess people. I mean, things happen. You have people

0:22:54.840 --> 0:23:02.200
<v Speaker 8>working in agencies, DA's offices, AG's office's, Governor's office, things

0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:05.160
<v Speaker 8>getting misfiled, And I mean it happened.

0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:11.000
<v Speaker 1>It happens. Actually, it did happen at least one other

0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:15.359
<v Speaker 1>time on Barber's watch. In two thousand and four, a

0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:19.199
<v Speaker 1>man named Montez Spradley was sentenced to death for murder

0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:22.480
<v Speaker 1>based on the testimony of one witness, just like to

0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:28.239
<v Speaker 1>Forrest Johnson. Eventually, Spradley's lawyers discovered the star witness was

0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:32.800
<v Speaker 1>paid ten thousand dollars for her testimony, but police and

0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:39.399
<v Speaker 1>prosecutors never disclosed the reward payment because the reward documents

0:23:39.440 --> 0:23:43.679
<v Speaker 1>were kept in this same separate file as Violet Ellison's

0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:48.800
<v Speaker 1>reward payment. The judge in that case also didn't disclose

0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:54.760
<v Speaker 1>information about the reward. The judge was Gloria Bahackle, the

0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:59.040
<v Speaker 1>sister of Alfred Bahackle, the judge into Forests trial.

0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:05.840
<v Speaker 6>Hello.

0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:10.880
<v Speaker 1>Hey, my name is Beth Sholburn. I was wondering if

0:24:11.840 --> 0:24:16.399
<v Speaker 1>mister Alfred ba Hackle is here. My producer Mara, and

0:24:16.440 --> 0:24:19.760
<v Speaker 1>I went to Judge Alfred bay Hackle's house hoping to

0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:23.840
<v Speaker 1>talk to him about these off the record payment authorizations,

0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:28.520
<v Speaker 1>but he told us that he wasn't interested in commenting

0:24:28.640 --> 0:24:32.520
<v Speaker 1>on any specific cases or his time as a judge.

0:24:32.760 --> 0:24:33.760
<v Speaker 8>I've talked to you.

0:24:33.840 --> 0:24:40.080
<v Speaker 1>It's about a murder case and several of the trials here.

0:24:40.520 --> 0:24:42.560
<v Speaker 2>I can't talk about, okay.

0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:46.600
<v Speaker 1>Montes Bradley was able to prove his innocence and was

0:24:46.680 --> 0:24:51.280
<v Speaker 1>released from prison in twenty fifteen to Forrest and his

0:24:51.359 --> 0:25:29.800
<v Speaker 1>attorneys hope for this same outcome. I first heard about

0:25:29.840 --> 0:25:33.760
<v Speaker 1>to Forest Johnson's case in twenty nineteen when the Brady

0:25:33.800 --> 0:25:37.399
<v Speaker 1>hearing was scheduled. I was assigned to cover the hearing

0:25:37.560 --> 0:25:41.000
<v Speaker 1>for WBrC The News station where I used to work.

0:25:42.000 --> 0:25:46.919
<v Speaker 1>This hearing would determine whether Violet Ellison's secret reward payment

0:25:47.280 --> 0:25:52.560
<v Speaker 1>amounted to prosecutorial misconduct. I didn't know much about to

0:25:52.600 --> 0:25:55.800
<v Speaker 1>Force case back then, only that he was on death

0:25:55.880 --> 0:25:58.359
<v Speaker 1>row for a crime that he said he didn't commit

0:25:59.040 --> 0:26:02.320
<v Speaker 1>and was convicted on the testimony of an ear witness

0:26:02.720 --> 0:26:07.600
<v Speaker 1>who was paid off the record. In preparation for the hearing,

0:26:07.840 --> 0:26:12.119
<v Speaker 1>I met with Taforest's cousin Antonio Green, and other family

0:26:12.160 --> 0:26:16.120
<v Speaker 1>members at their uncle's house. They all said to Forrest

0:26:16.440 --> 0:26:19.080
<v Speaker 1>was optimistic about the hearing, and he.

0:26:18.960 --> 0:26:21.080
<v Speaker 4>Tells me, he says all the time, well, you know,

0:26:21.200 --> 0:26:23.359
<v Speaker 4>cause I know I didn't do this, so one day

0:26:23.520 --> 0:26:24.600
<v Speaker 4>it'll all come out.

0:26:26.080 --> 0:26:26.320
<v Speaker 3>Old.

0:26:26.520 --> 0:26:30.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. On the day of the hearing, I only took

0:26:30.680 --> 0:26:34.240
<v Speaker 1>a pen and notebook into Judge Pulliam's courtroom because she

0:26:34.320 --> 0:26:39.080
<v Speaker 1>doesn't allow recording. I sat next to to Forest's mother, Donna,

0:26:39.280 --> 0:26:43.119
<v Speaker 1>in a middle row, and I spotted to Forrest sitting

0:26:43.200 --> 0:26:47.200
<v Speaker 1>at the defense table with his attorneys. This was the

0:26:47.240 --> 0:26:51.160
<v Speaker 1>first and only time I've ever seen to Forrest Johnson

0:26:51.280 --> 0:26:55.560
<v Speaker 1>in person. He was wearing an orange and white striped

0:26:55.760 --> 0:27:00.320
<v Speaker 1>jail jumpsuit and was in handcuffs and leg irons. At

0:27:00.320 --> 0:27:03.800
<v Speaker 1>one point, he turned and smiled at his family, and

0:27:03.840 --> 0:27:07.560
<v Speaker 1>I heard his mom next to me say softly, hey baby.

0:27:09.200 --> 0:27:12.119
<v Speaker 1>The courtroom was packed, and much of the crowd was

0:27:12.160 --> 0:27:16.160
<v Speaker 1>to Forrest's family and friends, but I also saw Jefferson

0:27:16.200 --> 0:27:20.160
<v Speaker 1>County's newly elected district attorney seated in the first row,

0:27:20.800 --> 0:27:24.600
<v Speaker 1>Danny Carr. He's the first black man to be elected

0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:29.160
<v Speaker 1>top prosecutor in Jefferson County. A month before this hearing,

0:27:29.840 --> 0:27:32.560
<v Speaker 1>a group of faith leaders who knew about to Forest

0:27:32.720 --> 0:27:36.840
<v Speaker 1>case published an open letter to Carr asking him to

0:27:36.960 --> 0:27:41.000
<v Speaker 1>push for a new trial, but at this point Carr

0:27:41.000 --> 0:27:48.240
<v Speaker 1>had not commented publicly on the case. The hearing starts

0:27:48.359 --> 0:27:52.719
<v Speaker 1>at nine am to Forrest's attorneys present all of the

0:27:52.760 --> 0:27:56.720
<v Speaker 1>documents that took the state seventeen years to turn over.

0:27:57.760 --> 0:28:01.240
<v Speaker 1>They argue that the documents showed so the state suppressed

0:28:01.280 --> 0:28:06.119
<v Speaker 1>evidence that Violet Ellison initially contacted police in pursuit of

0:28:06.160 --> 0:28:10.359
<v Speaker 1>the reward money, and then the state hid that she

0:28:10.440 --> 0:28:21.840
<v Speaker 1>was eventually paid five thousand dollars. Just after ten am,

0:28:22.240 --> 0:28:27.120
<v Speaker 1>the state calls only one witness to testify, Violet Ellison.

0:28:28.560 --> 0:28:31.880
<v Speaker 1>She's seventy seven years old and walks to the stand

0:28:32.080 --> 0:28:35.760
<v Speaker 1>using a cane. She has short white hair and is

0:28:35.880 --> 0:28:40.760
<v Speaker 1>dressed in a white blazer and black pants. After she's

0:28:40.760 --> 0:28:44.440
<v Speaker 1>sworn in, Violet Ellison says that she knew the victim

0:28:44.840 --> 0:28:48.840
<v Speaker 1>and followed the details about the murder and investigation by

0:28:48.920 --> 0:28:54.400
<v Speaker 1>watching the news and reading the newspaper. But despite all that,

0:28:55.000 --> 0:28:58.400
<v Speaker 1>and despite the fact that information about the reward was

0:28:58.560 --> 0:29:02.920
<v Speaker 1>all over the news, she is vehement that she didn't

0:29:03.280 --> 0:29:07.160
<v Speaker 1>know about the reward. She testifies that the first time

0:29:07.200 --> 0:29:11.040
<v Speaker 1>she heard about the reward was after to Forrest was

0:29:11.080 --> 0:29:14.360
<v Speaker 1>sentenced to death in July of two thousand and one,

0:29:15.000 --> 0:29:20.160
<v Speaker 1>three years after he was convicted. She says that's when

0:29:20.200 --> 0:29:24.120
<v Speaker 1>someone from the DA's office contacted her and asked her

0:29:24.160 --> 0:29:26.920
<v Speaker 1>to come in and sign papers for the reward money.

0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:34.400
<v Speaker 1>At the end of this five hour hearing, Judge Pulliam

0:29:34.480 --> 0:29:37.040
<v Speaker 1>says she's not going to make a decision that day.

0:29:37.680 --> 0:29:41.040
<v Speaker 1>She'll consider all of the evidence and then issue her

0:29:41.120 --> 0:29:46.160
<v Speaker 1>ruling to Forrest's mother. Donna, sitting next to me, bursts

0:29:46.280 --> 0:29:57.000
<v Speaker 1>into tears. After the hearing, I was going over my

0:29:57.160 --> 0:30:01.880
<v Speaker 1>notes and noticed a big discrepancy between the state's story

0:30:02.400 --> 0:30:06.600
<v Speaker 1>and Violet Ellison's testimony about what triggered the reward three

0:30:06.720 --> 0:30:11.840
<v Speaker 1>years after to Forrest was convicted. In opening statements, the

0:30:11.880 --> 0:30:16.120
<v Speaker 1>state lawyer said that Violet Ellison asked the DA's office

0:30:16.200 --> 0:30:20.360
<v Speaker 1>about the reward, but on the stand, Violet said it

0:30:20.520 --> 0:30:25.760
<v Speaker 1>was the other way around that they contacted her. This

0:30:25.880 --> 0:30:30.120
<v Speaker 1>might seem like a minor detail, but knowing what triggered

0:30:30.160 --> 0:30:34.000
<v Speaker 1>the reward payment is key in determining whether or not

0:30:34.080 --> 0:30:38.600
<v Speaker 1>this is a Brady violation. Who called who first? How

0:30:38.600 --> 0:30:43.160
<v Speaker 1>did this payment come about? So I emailed the Attorney

0:30:43.160 --> 0:30:48.080
<v Speaker 1>General's office for some clarity, and they directly contradicted Violet

0:30:48.120 --> 0:30:54.120
<v Speaker 1>Ellison's testimony again, writing three years after the trial, Ellison

0:30:54.360 --> 0:30:57.560
<v Speaker 1>requested the cash reward that had been offered by the governor,

0:30:58.600 --> 0:31:04.880
<v Speaker 1>and since then Alabama's Attorney General completely reversed the state's narrative.

0:31:05.240 --> 0:31:09.400
<v Speaker 1>The AG's office now claims that the prosecutor asked for

0:31:09.440 --> 0:31:14.920
<v Speaker 1>the reward to be paid unbeknownst to Violet Ellison. But

0:31:15.120 --> 0:31:19.520
<v Speaker 1>former DA David Barber told me he wouldn't do that,

0:31:19.520 --> 0:31:23.280
<v Speaker 1>that rewards were triggered by law enforcement or a witness

0:31:23.400 --> 0:31:28.080
<v Speaker 1>themselves applying for a reward, and Prosecutor Jeff Wallace said

0:31:28.320 --> 0:31:33.000
<v Speaker 1>he had nothing to do with rewards. Everyone I asked

0:31:33.040 --> 0:31:36.760
<v Speaker 1>gave a different answer, pointing the finger in a different direction.

0:31:37.800 --> 0:31:44.000
<v Speaker 1>Nobody wanted to own up to triggering the payment. The

0:31:44.040 --> 0:31:49.280
<v Speaker 1>state continuously changing its story on this important detail isn't

0:31:49.360 --> 0:32:04.680
<v Speaker 1>just sloppy, it's incredibly suspicious. It takes nine months for

0:32:04.760 --> 0:32:08.720
<v Speaker 1>Judge Pulliam to issue her decision. She writes that she

0:32:09.200 --> 0:32:14.200
<v Speaker 1>found Violet Ellison to be confident, describing her as well

0:32:14.280 --> 0:32:19.800
<v Speaker 1>dressed and well spoken, and that her articulate testimony outweighed

0:32:19.840 --> 0:32:25.120
<v Speaker 1>the evidence presented by to Forrest Johnson's attorneys. Pulliam says

0:32:25.160 --> 0:32:28.360
<v Speaker 1>the documents don't prove that Violet Ellison knew about the

0:32:28.400 --> 0:32:32.400
<v Speaker 1>money when she testified, and don't amount to misconduct by

0:32:32.400 --> 0:32:36.160
<v Speaker 1>the state. She doesn't address the fact that it took

0:32:36.200 --> 0:32:41.040
<v Speaker 1>the state seventeen years to admit they had paid Violet Ellison.

0:32:43.680 --> 0:32:47.960
<v Speaker 2>Really, what she was doing was validating the credibility of

0:32:48.040 --> 0:32:51.480
<v Speaker 2>Violet Ellison, saying I didn't know that there was even

0:32:51.520 --> 0:32:55.640
<v Speaker 2>a reward offered in the case, which is impossible to believe,

0:32:55.920 --> 0:33:00.959
<v Speaker 2>and then validating her testimony that three years after the trial,

0:33:01.440 --> 0:33:03.440
<v Speaker 2>not having known that there is even a reward offered

0:33:03.480 --> 0:33:05.960
<v Speaker 2>in the case, the DA's office out of the blue

0:33:06.360 --> 0:33:08.640
<v Speaker 2>called her up one day and said, Hey, remember that

0:33:08.680 --> 0:33:11.720
<v Speaker 2>case you testified in. We have five thousand dollars of

0:33:11.760 --> 0:33:13.560
<v Speaker 2>the state's money that we'd like to give you for that.

0:33:13.720 --> 0:33:15.120
<v Speaker 2>Do you want to come down and get it? And

0:33:15.160 --> 0:33:17.880
<v Speaker 2>she said sure and came down and got it, which

0:33:17.880 --> 0:33:19.400
<v Speaker 2>is also impossible to believe.

0:33:27.400 --> 0:33:31.400
<v Speaker 1>To Forrest's legal team appeals the decision, and in April

0:33:31.400 --> 0:33:35.480
<v Speaker 1>of twenty twenty one, I attend oral arguments in front

0:33:35.480 --> 0:33:47.880
<v Speaker 1>of the State Court of Criminal Appeals. I notice all

0:33:47.960 --> 0:33:52.680
<v Speaker 1>five judges on the court are white. In fact, everyone

0:33:52.720 --> 0:33:57.560
<v Speaker 1>in the courtroom is white. The disconnect is striking to

0:33:57.640 --> 0:34:02.440
<v Speaker 1>Forest Johnson. Isn't here All these white people are discussing

0:34:02.560 --> 0:34:05.360
<v Speaker 1>the fate of a black man who is locked away

0:34:05.360 --> 0:34:16.120
<v Speaker 1>on death row, completely absent from this process. This dynamic

0:34:16.239 --> 0:34:20.120
<v Speaker 1>isn't unique to this hearing. Black people make up twenty

0:34:20.120 --> 0:34:25.400
<v Speaker 1>seven percent of Alabama's overall population, but fifty four percent

0:34:25.640 --> 0:34:30.000
<v Speaker 1>of the state prison population. There are no black appellate

0:34:30.080 --> 0:34:35.200
<v Speaker 1>judges and only three of the forty two elected das

0:34:35.400 --> 0:34:40.239
<v Speaker 1>and Alabama are black. This lack of representation means it's

0:34:40.320 --> 0:34:45.880
<v Speaker 1>almost always white people making policy and punishment decisions that

0:34:46.000 --> 0:34:53.360
<v Speaker 1>impact a disproportionate poor and black population. To Forest hearing

0:34:53.560 --> 0:34:57.720
<v Speaker 1>in the Court of Criminal Appeals lasts just forty nine minutes.

0:34:58.880 --> 0:35:57.600
<v Speaker 1>It's another tony.

0:35:32.040 --> 0:35:34.160
<v Speaker 3>At the end of the trial, once the verdict was

0:35:34.200 --> 0:35:37.640
<v Speaker 3>read and everything was done, the jury was finished with

0:35:37.719 --> 0:35:41.600
<v Speaker 3>their job, and I remember the judge saying that to

0:35:41.719 --> 0:35:44.200
<v Speaker 3>Forrest would be sentenced at another date.

0:35:45.440 --> 0:35:49.000
<v Speaker 1>Monique Kicks again, who served on the jury into Forrest's

0:35:49.120 --> 0:35:53.200
<v Speaker 1>second trial. Monique wanted to talk with me after she

0:35:53.280 --> 0:35:57.000
<v Speaker 1>saw a news story about Violet Ellison and the reward payment,

0:35:57.600 --> 0:35:59.920
<v Speaker 1>so I made the hour long drive to her house

0:36:00.280 --> 0:36:04.200
<v Speaker 1>to speak to her in person. Monique was twenty seven

0:36:04.280 --> 0:36:07.680
<v Speaker 1>years old when she voted for to Forrest's guilt and

0:36:07.920 --> 0:36:12.239
<v Speaker 1>a death sentence. As soon as that was over, security

0:36:12.360 --> 0:36:15.279
<v Speaker 1>quickly ushered the jury out the back door of the

0:36:15.320 --> 0:36:19.560
<v Speaker 1>courthouse to the parking deck. She never found out if

0:36:19.560 --> 0:36:22.640
<v Speaker 1>the judge agreed that to Forrest should be put to

0:36:22.719 --> 0:36:24.760
<v Speaker 1>death or spend life in prison.

0:36:26.280 --> 0:36:28.440
<v Speaker 3>I never heard anything, didn't see it in the news,

0:36:28.520 --> 0:36:31.879
<v Speaker 3>may have dismissed it that night. The internet wasn't a thing.

0:36:32.680 --> 0:36:36.040
<v Speaker 3>I couldn't look it up, google it, so I honestly

0:36:36.120 --> 0:36:39.240
<v Speaker 3>never knew ultimately what happened to mister Johnson.

0:36:40.480 --> 0:36:44.680
<v Speaker 1>Twenty years later, Monique gets a book recommendation from a friend.

0:36:45.480 --> 0:36:49.480
<v Speaker 1>The Sun Does Shine, a memoir by Anthony ray Hinton,

0:36:49.800 --> 0:36:52.839
<v Speaker 1>a black man from Birmingham who was sent to death

0:36:52.920 --> 0:36:57.680
<v Speaker 1>row in nineteen eighty five despite a solid alibi and

0:36:57.840 --> 0:37:02.320
<v Speaker 1>no eyewitnesses tying him to the murder. He was exonerated

0:37:02.400 --> 0:37:03.440
<v Speaker 1>thirty years later.

0:37:04.400 --> 0:37:06.799
<v Speaker 3>And so I was reading the book. And as I'm

0:37:06.840 --> 0:37:09.520
<v Speaker 3>reading the book, I'm like, oh, wow, this was set

0:37:09.560 --> 0:37:12.120
<v Speaker 3>in Birmingham in the eighties. I was like, I was

0:37:12.120 --> 0:37:15.239
<v Speaker 3>on a jury in the nineties in Jefferson County in Birmingham.

0:37:16.360 --> 0:37:19.400
<v Speaker 3>That's interesting. By the time I got to the end

0:37:19.400 --> 0:37:21.360
<v Speaker 3>of the book, I remember I looked at my husband

0:37:21.440 --> 0:37:24.840
<v Speaker 3>and I said, oh, my goodness, I think we convicted

0:37:24.840 --> 0:37:28.800
<v Speaker 3>an innocent man. Because I was like, there's no way

0:37:28.840 --> 0:37:33.160
<v Speaker 3>ten years later that the injustices and the corruption that

0:37:33.200 --> 0:37:36.000
<v Speaker 3>were going on in the system had cleaned themselves up.

0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:39.600
<v Speaker 3>About two weeks later, I'm sitting on my sofa and

0:37:39.680 --> 0:37:42.480
<v Speaker 3>I opened up my local news app to just read

0:37:42.520 --> 0:37:47.239
<v Speaker 3>the headlines to Forrest Johnson has been claiming innocence for

0:37:47.239 --> 0:37:50.000
<v Speaker 3>over twenty years on death row. Something to that effect.

0:37:50.880 --> 0:37:52.799
<v Speaker 3>And I opened up the article and started reading, and

0:37:52.840 --> 0:37:57.080
<v Speaker 3>I just started sobbing, like uncontrollable, because I was like, oh,

0:37:57.160 --> 0:38:02.080
<v Speaker 3>my goodness, we did commit to an innocent man and

0:38:02.120 --> 0:38:05.600
<v Speaker 3>he's been on death row all these years and I

0:38:05.640 --> 0:38:07.680
<v Speaker 3>didn't know it.

0:38:07.680 --> 0:38:12.720
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't until twenty nineteen, more than two decades after

0:38:12.800 --> 0:38:17.040
<v Speaker 1>she voted to convict to Forrest Johnson, that Monique learned

0:38:17.160 --> 0:38:21.640
<v Speaker 1>that the state's key witness, Violet Ellison, was paid in

0:38:21.880 --> 0:38:23.520
<v Speaker 1>secret for her testimony.

0:38:24.680 --> 0:38:29.760
<v Speaker 3>You know, the star witness was paid, and the defense

0:38:29.800 --> 0:38:32.799
<v Speaker 3>didn't know it. The jurors didn't know it. So yeah,

0:38:32.840 --> 0:38:35.920
<v Speaker 3>I was shocked. And then I was like, well, how

0:38:36.000 --> 0:38:39.400
<v Speaker 3>shocked were to Forrest and his family when we accused

0:38:39.480 --> 0:38:43.719
<v Speaker 3>him of being guilty? So I just can't imagine what

0:38:43.760 --> 0:38:45.120
<v Speaker 3>that was like to them. Another blow.

0:38:46.480 --> 0:38:50.320
<v Speaker 1>At the time of the trial, Monique found Violet Ellison

0:38:50.440 --> 0:38:55.359
<v Speaker 1>to be composed and confident. Do you think that your

0:38:55.600 --> 0:38:58.120
<v Speaker 1>impression of her would have been different had you known

0:38:58.360 --> 0:39:01.440
<v Speaker 1>she was being paid five thousand dollars.

0:39:02.400 --> 0:39:08.720
<v Speaker 3>I definitely believe we would have as a jury talked

0:39:08.760 --> 0:39:13.640
<v Speaker 3>about that, like how credible is this testimony? She's being

0:39:13.680 --> 0:39:15.960
<v Speaker 3>paid for it? Yes, I do think that would have

0:39:16.600 --> 0:39:18.319
<v Speaker 3>there would have been conversations about it, and I do

0:39:18.400 --> 0:39:20.840
<v Speaker 3>believe it would have changed out could have changed outcome.

0:39:21.640 --> 0:39:25.600
<v Speaker 3>I really felt like the jury was used in this

0:39:25.680 --> 0:39:30.000
<v Speaker 3>big game of injustice. We were just just like, here's

0:39:30.000 --> 0:39:32.760
<v Speaker 3>some theories. We're just gonna keep throwing them out until

0:39:32.760 --> 0:39:36.160
<v Speaker 3>we can get a group of people together to believe it.

0:39:36.200 --> 0:39:37.880
<v Speaker 3>And I just feel like we were being used in

0:39:37.920 --> 0:39:41.359
<v Speaker 3>this game. They needed a conviction. It was a high

0:39:41.400 --> 0:39:45.040
<v Speaker 3>profile case, you know, it was a sheriff's deputy. Somebody

0:39:45.080 --> 0:39:48.160
<v Speaker 3>needed to pay for it. And to me, it just

0:39:48.200 --> 0:39:51.200
<v Speaker 3>seems like we're just gonna throw these things out, gather

0:39:51.280 --> 0:39:53.920
<v Speaker 3>people together until we get some that believe it, and

0:39:54.000 --> 0:39:56.120
<v Speaker 3>unfortunately I was in the group that believed it.

0:39:57.320 --> 0:40:01.399
<v Speaker 1>Monique is one of three jurors that I've interviewed. All

0:40:01.480 --> 0:40:06.960
<v Speaker 1>three regret voting to convict to Forrest Johnson. None of

0:40:06.960 --> 0:40:10.239
<v Speaker 1>them could quite put their finger on why they were

0:40:10.280 --> 0:40:14.080
<v Speaker 1>convinced of his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, other than

0:40:14.160 --> 0:40:18.880
<v Speaker 1>believing Violet Ellison. Once they learned she was paid for

0:40:18.920 --> 0:40:23.920
<v Speaker 1>her testimony, it was like to Forrest suddenly became real

0:40:24.000 --> 0:40:29.080
<v Speaker 1>to them. The weight of their decision was crushing. But

0:40:29.400 --> 0:40:33.000
<v Speaker 1>besides speaking out about their regret. There's nothing they can do.

0:40:33.800 --> 0:40:37.239
<v Speaker 1>They can't take back their votes. They have to live

0:40:37.600 --> 0:40:38.480
<v Speaker 1>with their decision.

0:40:42.880 --> 0:40:47.719
<v Speaker 3>Felt a lot of grief, Shane guilt for having been

0:40:47.760 --> 0:40:54.120
<v Speaker 3>a part of this. I'm pretty even kill person. I'm

0:40:54.120 --> 0:40:56.879
<v Speaker 3>not a cry or you know how some people cry

0:40:56.920 --> 0:41:01.040
<v Speaker 3>about anything. That's not my go to a big crier,

0:41:01.160 --> 0:41:06.360
<v Speaker 3>But anytime the subject comes up, it is like grief

0:41:06.440 --> 0:41:10.080
<v Speaker 3>deep in my soul and I just get very emotional.

0:41:41.960 --> 0:41:44.280
<v Speaker 1>I felt like I needed to talk to the person

0:41:44.320 --> 0:41:48.799
<v Speaker 1>at the center of the case outside of courtrooms and legalies.

0:41:49.840 --> 0:41:54.040
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to hear from Violet Ellison. She has a

0:41:54.080 --> 0:41:57.960
<v Speaker 1>small brick house on a busy street in Birmingham. When

0:41:58.000 --> 0:42:01.719
<v Speaker 1>I go there, the main front door is open, and

0:42:01.840 --> 0:42:05.480
<v Speaker 1>as I walk closer, I can see Violet Ellison sitting

0:42:05.520 --> 0:42:09.759
<v Speaker 1>inside wearing a robe. She stands up and turns to

0:42:09.800 --> 0:42:19.160
<v Speaker 1>face me. Hey are you miss Violet Ellison? Miss Ellison,

0:42:19.200 --> 0:42:22.680
<v Speaker 1>my name is Beth. I'm a journalist and I was

0:42:22.719 --> 0:42:25.680
<v Speaker 1>hoping to talk to you about the Deputy Hardy murder

0:42:25.719 --> 0:42:29.719
<v Speaker 1>that you are a witness in. Eventually she steps out

0:42:29.719 --> 0:42:34.839
<v Speaker 1>onto the porch where we continue the conversation, and I feel.

0:42:34.560 --> 0:42:38.800
<v Speaker 3>Like I'm just being a really cute for telling you

0:42:38.800 --> 0:42:39.160
<v Speaker 3>the truth?

0:42:39.520 --> 0:42:42.080
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, and I do. I don't like you.

0:42:42.600 --> 0:42:45.920
<v Speaker 1>Well, I just wanted to ask you about the issue

0:42:45.960 --> 0:42:48.879
<v Speaker 1>of the reward, since that what is That's what I mean.

0:42:48.920 --> 0:42:52.080
<v Speaker 1>I talked to Violet Ellison for twenty minutes and she

0:42:52.239 --> 0:42:55.400
<v Speaker 1>tells me no less than a dozen times that she

0:42:55.640 --> 0:42:58.760
<v Speaker 1>did not know about the reward when she came forward

0:42:58.840 --> 0:43:01.879
<v Speaker 1>to talk to police, and that she did not know

0:43:01.920 --> 0:43:06.800
<v Speaker 1>about it when she testified against to Forrest at two trials.

0:43:07.320 --> 0:43:09.479
<v Speaker 1>Do you think about the fact that he's on death

0:43:09.560 --> 0:43:11.279
<v Speaker 1>row though? I mean, I know you said you don't

0:43:11.320 --> 0:43:13.080
<v Speaker 1>really to support the death penalty.

0:43:14.080 --> 0:43:18.560
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, well I did at first, you know, in trouble

0:43:18.680 --> 0:43:24.120
<v Speaker 7>my spirit, and as time went by, you try to

0:43:24.200 --> 0:43:28.880
<v Speaker 7>forget the bad things that you know happened.

0:43:28.880 --> 0:43:32.880
<v Speaker 1>But it's a little surreal for me to be face

0:43:32.920 --> 0:43:37.239
<v Speaker 1>to face with Violet Ellison, this woman who's the lynchpin

0:43:37.360 --> 0:43:42.600
<v Speaker 1>of the entire case against to Forest. As we say goodbye,

0:43:42.840 --> 0:43:46.680
<v Speaker 1>she delivers the most ironic thank you I've ever received,

0:43:47.560 --> 0:43:53.240
<v Speaker 1>telling me she appreciates me talking to her directly instead

0:43:53.239 --> 0:43:59.040
<v Speaker 1>of relying on someone else's characterization of what she said.

0:44:00.120 --> 0:44:05.719
<v Speaker 6>Nobody has come to me like you to see how

0:44:05.800 --> 0:44:09.520
<v Speaker 6>I feel about it, And they just reported on what

0:44:10.080 --> 0:44:13.800
<v Speaker 6>somebody say hearsay, and I don't like that now because

0:44:14.160 --> 0:44:16.680
<v Speaker 6>you'll never get the truth like that.

0:44:16.960 --> 0:44:30.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there is a man on death row because the

0:44:30.520 --> 0:44:35.840
<v Speaker 1>jurors believed Violet Ellison. Now we know what the jury

0:44:35.920 --> 0:44:39.879
<v Speaker 1>didn't know at trial, that she was paid for her testimony,

0:44:40.280 --> 0:44:44.480
<v Speaker 1>and that the state hid this information. They told the

0:44:44.560 --> 0:44:48.920
<v Speaker 1>jury that Violet Ellison was credible and believable, and they

0:44:48.960 --> 0:44:53.480
<v Speaker 1>still say that, but they weren't truthful about the reward.

0:44:54.600 --> 0:44:57.880
<v Speaker 1>So why should we believe how they characterize their key witness.

0:45:04.200 --> 0:45:05.880
<v Speaker 10>I hate to see it. I know that's my grandmother.

0:45:06.120 --> 0:45:08.279
<v Speaker 10>That's a true scam audital in a way she can

0:45:08.280 --> 0:45:11.960
<v Speaker 10>get a dollar. I'm telling you she ain't that type.

0:45:12.000 --> 0:45:13.759
<v Speaker 10>It's just gonna help to my just to help them.

0:45:14.719 --> 0:45:17.879
<v Speaker 10>It gotta have money, It gotta have money as long.

0:45:18.280 --> 0:45:28.319
<v Speaker 1>Wow, that's next time. Ear Witness is a production of

0:45:28.400 --> 0:45:32.719
<v Speaker 1>Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company. Number One.

0:45:33.840 --> 0:45:38.960
<v Speaker 1>Executive producers are Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wardis, and

0:45:39.040 --> 0:45:43.239
<v Speaker 1>me Beth Shelburn. The investigative reporting for this series was

0:45:43.280 --> 0:45:48.440
<v Speaker 1>done by me and Maraa McNamara. Producers are Maraa McNamara,

0:45:48.680 --> 0:45:54.040
<v Speaker 1>Hannah Bial and Jackie Polly. Kara Kornhaber is our senior producer.

0:45:54.760 --> 0:45:59.319
<v Speaker 1>Britt Spangler is our sound designer. Additional story editing from

0:45:59.400 --> 0:46:05.120
<v Speaker 1>Marie Sutton, fact check help from Catherine Newhan, and special

0:46:05.200 --> 0:46:09.799
<v Speaker 1>thanks to to Forrest Johnson's legal defense team. You can

0:46:09.840 --> 0:46:14.480
<v Speaker 1>follow the show on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Twitter at

0:46:14.560 --> 0:46:17.839
<v Speaker 1>Lava for Good. To see behind the scenes content from

0:46:17.880 --> 0:46:22.440
<v Speaker 1>our investigation, visit Lava for Good dot com, slash ear

0:46:22.520 --> 0:46:22.920
<v Speaker 1>Witness