1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. 5 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. 6 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 2: Our colleague Noel is doing his civic duty. Doo d 7 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 2: y oh. Yeah that is all. 8 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, they called me Ben. We're joined with our guest producer, 9 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 3: Max white Pants Williams. Most importantly, you are you. You 10 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 3: are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want 11 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 3: you to know. And Matt, I think it's fair to 12 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 3: say this one has been a long time in coming 13 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 3: for both of us. 14 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, just about twenty years roughly. 15 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:07,119 Speaker 3: And we're harkening back to some previous episodes wherein you 16 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 3: and I explore the concept of a think tank. You know, 17 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 3: shout out Rand Corporation, right, the shadowy quasi governmental nerd trust, 18 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 3: which we mean with great affection, like the think tank 19 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 3: in general is just here in the US. It's an 20 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 3: institution or a group of people organized around the study 21 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 3: of a specific issue. And the idea is that if 22 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 3: you are a world leader, you can look to these 23 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 3: groups to get in depth insite advice and analysis of 24 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 3: anything under the sun. Like, let's be honest, it's true. 25 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 3: Most members of Congress do not have time to become 26 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 3: subject matter experts themselves on a number of issues. So 27 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 3: they go to the experts and say meteorology, or the 28 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 3: experts in play, plastic production, literally any industry name it, 29 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 3: there's a think tank that applies. And I don't know, 30 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 3: maybe I'm beating a little Pollyanna, but I would say 31 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 3: in general, most think tanks are a huge benefit for 32 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 3: the world. Like they're smart, they care, they know what's up. 33 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, theoretically, you can have the greatest minds come together 34 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 2: and figure out problems, right, figure out solutions or maybe 35 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 2: this way, figure out the best thirty solutions to a 36 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 2: major problem, and then discuss those solutions, each one as 37 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 2: an individual thing, together for a long period of time. 38 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 2: And then you can take those, you know, the best ideas, 39 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 2: and let's say, lobby Congress or the President with those 40 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 2: ideas to say, hey, we think we understand this problem 41 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 2: better than maybe your joint chiefs of staff. Here's what 42 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 2: we think. Maybe mullet over for a. 43 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 3: Bit funny, you should mention that Congressman, because retired member 44 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 3: of JAYSK is in fact part of our think tank. 45 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,239 Speaker 3: And here's what he says. 46 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: Exactly exactly. And if you are a think tank like 47 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 2: that that publishes your work on a regular basis, let's 48 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: say you're just a member of one of those people 49 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 2: that you'd want to be lobbying, right, maybe you are 50 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 2: just reading that information as opinion pieces essentially on a weekly, daily, 51 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 2: even monthly basis. There's this like there's an influence that's 52 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,839 Speaker 2: occurring there with these think tanks, maybe whether even they 53 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 2: know it or like to think about it or not. 54 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 3: M hm agreed. There's a tremendous deal of soft power 55 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 3: inherent in these sorts of conversations. And it reminds me 56 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 3: also of our earlier episode on ALEC, the American Legislative 57 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 3: Exchange Council, Like how think tanks often willft craft policy 58 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 3: proposals right, and the idea is when everything works out 59 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 3: and is above board, the idea is that members of 60 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 3: the political class and some private industries will read these 61 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 3: policy recommendations and say, heck, yeah, but ten ten no notes, 62 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 3: Let's go do this list of thirty very specific things 63 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:31,919 Speaker 3: in this order. Unfortunately, for every ten amazing in good 64 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 3: faith to think tanks. There are a couple of what 65 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 3: the British would call the batties, some incredibly shady things. 66 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 2: Well yeah, I well tell me what you think, Ben, 67 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: I think the worst of it comes when there is 68 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 2: a political action committee or something like that that is 69 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 2: directly tied to one of these think tanks, to where 70 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 2: money money donations can be simultaneously given as well as 71 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 2: suggestions for policy. Because that's when you get that thing 72 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 2: that happens where policy is literally dictated or written down, 73 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 2: like a law is drafted that then gets sent to 74 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 2: somebody in Congress and they kind of just rubber stamp 75 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 2: it or change a couple words to make sure it's theirs, 76 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 2: and then it goes in and is submitted and voted 77 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 2: on as a potential law. 78 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:23,039 Speaker 3: We the private healthcare industry are completely objective in our 79 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 3: funding of this think tank that has sent this policy 80 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 3: proposal to Congress, folks on both sides of the aisle, 81 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 3: who are also the largest recipients of our campaign donations. 82 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 3: But no harm, no foul, you know what I mean. 83 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 2: Well, let's okay, So let's let's before we even get 84 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: into bad stuff. Let's talk about what every single think 85 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 2: tank like this has access to that is public information 86 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 2: about the United States, specifically spending, So things like information 87 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 2: about the GDP, the gross domestic product of the United States, 88 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 2: and where dollars get allocated for things, and well, I 89 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 2: mean it's for everything, right, Imagine anything the US government 90 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 2: spends money on. It's all in there, except for the 91 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 2: part the secret budget parts, because there is some of 92 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 2: that or the stuff that's missing from the pentagons pentagons accounting, 93 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 2: you know, to the tune of billions of dollars. But 94 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,799 Speaker 2: you get things like the amount of overall defense spending 95 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 2: that the United States put allocates on a per year basis. 96 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 2: So Ben I did a deep dive into GDP and 97 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: defense spending and I wanted to really quickly just give 98 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 2: some numbers out here so we can have maybe a 99 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 2: starting place for the conversation. Is that okay? 100 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 3: All right? 101 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 2: So in nineteen sixty five, this is just the earliest 102 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 2: back that macro trends had. They went back to nineteen 103 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 2: sixty but I had to match it up with stuff 104 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 2: from the dods, like official reporting. So in nineteen sixty five, 105 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 2: the gross domestic Product of the United States was seven 106 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 2: hundred and forty three point seven billion dollars. That's all 107 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 2: the money that everyone living in the United States, every 108 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 2: company that is from the United States, all the taxes, 109 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: all the other things all added up and subtracted seven 110 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: hundred and forty three point seven. 111 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 3: Billion, not adjusted for inflation. 112 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 2: Exactly or depreciation or all these other things. But it's 113 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 2: like it's the big number, right of that money, defense 114 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 2: spending was six point five percent, So around forty eight 115 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: point three billion dollars now nineteen sixty five, six point 116 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 2: five percent. What we're going to be talking about a 117 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: lot today is a group of people, a think tank 118 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 2: that wants to make that number, that percentage of GDP 119 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 2: that's on defense spending. Increase that number just as much 120 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: as you can increase it, and just keep increasing it 121 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 2: and always have it at a certain level basically, and 122 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: it's always a percentage. It's not like a dollar amount. 123 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 2: Does that make sense. 124 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a proportion of GDP, and it's it's an 125 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 3: ongoing project in normalization of that percentage and moving the 126 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 3: Overton window of what is acceptable to the American public. 127 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 3: It's kind of you know what we could call it. 128 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 3: We could call it a group project for an American Century. 129 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: You know, Oh, it is like a group product project 130 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 2: for that. It's just like that, we're all going to 131 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 2: work together on it. But before we even launch into 132 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 2: that band, I wanted because so that was nineteen sixty five, 133 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 2: just as like a CIA benchmark early right before the 134 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 2: major time. I guess that we're going to be focused 135 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 2: on today. Nineteen ninety nine, the year the matrix was released. 136 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 2: Everybody shout out to Prince also exactly shout out to Prince. 137 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 2: The GDP of the United States was nine six hundred 138 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 2: and thirty one point one seven billion, right, So that's 139 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: that's like nine trillion. 140 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 3: That's like imaginary money at that point. 141 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: Yes, but defense spending dropped down to two point seven 142 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 2: percent overall, So nineteen sixty five six point five percent, 143 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine to two point seven percent, which to 144 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 2: a lot of the people were going to be talking 145 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 2: about the individuals and the group that is egregiously low 146 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 2: of a proportion of your money spent on defense. 147 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 3: Mm hmmm. Yeah. And Eisenhower's dead, so he's not going 148 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 3: to weigh in on that one. You're right there, there 149 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 3: is there is a problem, and this problem is this 150 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 3: problem is apparent to all sides of the conversation. However, 151 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 3: it's kind of like, you know, if there are people 152 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 3: who are on the opposite sides of the gun control 153 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 3: debate in America, and they'll both stand up and they'll 154 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 3: say this is horrible. There's a huge problem. And as 155 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 3: long as they don't get into the specifics of how 156 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 3: they define the problem and what they think the problem is, 157 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 3: then both sides feel very in sync and heated up 158 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 3: about it. But as you, as you so beautifully set up, Matt, 159 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 3: this is a story of what some would call a 160 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 3: continuing conspiracy, right and perhaps to the critics, a quite 161 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 3: successful conspiracy. This evening, we're talking about the Project for 162 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 3: a New American Century, and buckle up, folks, it's kind 163 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 3: of crazy. Just to be honest with you, here are 164 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 3: the facts, Matt. Do you want do you want to 165 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 3: talk about how how you ran into this? Well? 166 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 2: I called a phone now number the other day. Uh, 167 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 2: it's for this thing called the Project for the New 168 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 2: American Century. The phone number, I'm going to say it 169 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 2: two oh two two nine three four nine eight three. 170 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 2: Spoiler alert, the number you've dialed is not in service. 171 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 3: UH DC zip code or DC area code obviously it is. 172 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 2: It is a DC area code, but that isn't a 173 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 2: number that's listed on the publications from the year two 174 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 2: thousand that were put out by the Project for the 175 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 2: New American Century, and it was it was something we 176 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 2: came across because we've been I I will let me 177 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 2: shout one person out really quickly. Lunch lady called in 178 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 2: a while back and put us on to I forget 179 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 2: exactly what what the topic was. I ended up getting 180 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 2: mired in Project for New American Century because it was 181 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 2: tangentially irrelated, and I just went down a rabbit hole. 182 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: But we brought up another organization. It was something called 183 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: the Center for a New American Security, and it sounded 184 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 2: so familiar to me. That's what it was. Lunch Lady 185 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 2: told us about a documentary called Unknown Killer Robots that 186 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: was on Netflix, and there was a person speaking in 187 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,719 Speaker 2: there who happened to be what was her name, Stacy 188 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 2: Petty John. She happened to be from this thing called 189 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 2: the Center for New American Security. And I got fascinated 190 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 2: by that. Went down that rabbit hole led to the 191 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 2: project and reminded me of September eleventh attacks. But anyway, 192 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 2: we'll get. 193 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 3: To them, we'll get there. Yeah, yeah, the h In 194 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 3: another life, the activities of things like the p and 195 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 3: AC were objects of intense scrutiny and study. You know, 196 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 3: there are any number of universities, college programs, kind of 197 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 3: what would you call it feater schools that study this 198 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 3: sort of stuff extensively, all with the intention of getting 199 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 3: people into that industry and related sort of the world 200 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 3: of policy and punditry. Right, and so the p and AC, 201 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 3: as weird as it may sound, is a huge, huge 202 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 3: deal in US and inde global history. Like you pointed out, Matt, 203 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 3: it is no longer officially active. It was officially active 204 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 3: for a very short amount of time, in the course 205 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 3: of less than one decade. Though you could argue that 206 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 3: it fundamentally shifted the actions of the United States and 207 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 3: in doing so, shifted the actions of the world entire 208 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 3: And the story, I don't know. With these kind of 209 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 3: origin stories, we could go back to the roots of 210 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 3: Chicago neo conservatism. But the two guys who start this, 211 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 3: co founders of the PNAC, a guy named William Crystal 212 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 3: and his buddy Robert Kagan, they are still alive. They 213 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 3: are huge players in US politics and policy. They also 214 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 3: the names get so vague and confusing. They also are 215 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 3: instrumental in another think tank called the American Enterprise Institute. 216 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 3: That thing is also still around. You can go to 217 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 3: their website today. I'm sure they're super chill and a 218 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 3: very fun hang. 219 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 2: American Enterprise Institute. 220 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 3: What do we say about vague names? Man? 221 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 2: I know, I hope you can take classes at that institute. 222 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 2: I bet you can. 223 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 3: I'm sure they have plenty of Actually, I can confirm 224 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 3: they have a lot of papers they want you to read. 225 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 3: They have a lot of takes on things. 226 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 2: Yes. By the way, if you are searching this up 227 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 2: on your own, you probably won't find many references to 228 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 2: William Crystal. He is generally known as Bill Crystal. 229 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 3: Not to be confused with our pal from the Search 230 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 3: for Curly's Gold. 231 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 2: I like that Billy. 232 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a good egg. Yeah. 233 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 2: But this guy's been around for a very long time, 234 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: highly intelligent when you've listened to him to speak, longtime writer. 235 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 2: He's considered, I don't know, one of the primary new 236 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 2: conservatives of our time. Really, he has been on television 237 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 2: a whole lot. You've seen him be interviewed and just 238 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 2: give speeches probably if you if you again, if you 239 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 2: look him up, you can find him. I don't know 240 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 2: how much he's been on c SPAN. I know there 241 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 2: are other people that we'll be talking about today that 242 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 2: show up on c SPAN quite a bit. 243 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 3: He's got a podcast, that's that's it. M Yeah, that's 244 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 3: that's one of his primary means of communicating with the 245 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 3: public at large. Still writes extensively, as you said, still 246 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 3: makes a lot of speeches. He is in the hole power, 247 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 3: he is in those inner circle conversations. He is probably 248 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 3: most notable aside from you know, like spots on CNN 249 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 3: and mass media, He's most notable for being the former 250 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 3: chief of staff to Vice President Dan Quayle, who also 251 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 3: did they tell you I read Dan's book? 252 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 2: No that that's great, It's I still want to learn 253 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 2: as much as I can about George Bush Sr. That 254 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 2: guy has been fascinating me more and more as time 255 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 2: goes on. Oh yeah, just the things that he got 256 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 2: into and the people he met in decisions he made. 257 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 3: Holy mackerel, what a scamp that guy. 258 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 2: So Dan quail was vice president to George Bush George H. W. 259 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 3: Bush, Yes, Herbert Walker, Yeah. 260 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 2: And former ahead of the CIA then yes. 261 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, because the CIA is definitely a thing people quit 262 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 3: sure h. He's also dan quail I guess. In the 263 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 3: circus of political discourse. Dan Quayle was notably famous for 264 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 3: like a dumb thing about how to spell potato, which 265 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 3: some of some of the older members of our audience 266 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 3: may may remember. 267 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 2: It's really simple. It's the e that goes on when 268 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 2: it's pluralized, and then you'd remove the e, but he 269 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 2: did not. 270 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 3: And I'll be you to say again, I think that 271 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 3: was the fact that that was a story showed us 272 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 3: the future of political discourse right and evolving it down 273 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 3: into you know, look at this guy. He gets fancy mustard. 274 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 2: You know, he gets spelled one word on the fly 275 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 2: because we all spell perfectly exactly right. 276 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 3: And so this guy, for a long long time is 277 00:17:54,400 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 3: bridging the gap from Ivy League ideology, conservative thought very 278 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 3: well to do upper class folks to the political class. 279 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 3: And along comes his buddy, Robert Kagan. Our buddy rob 280 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 3: is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. Today we 281 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 3: you know, we're throwing a lot of names at you, 282 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 3: Brookings Institution. Other bag of badgers maybe a different episode, 283 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 3: but like his pal Billy. He is a prominent foreign 284 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 3: policy advisor. These guys are both sort of Kissinger light. 285 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 3: And with Kagan, what's interesting is that throughout his storied career, 286 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 3: Congress folks, decision makers on both sides of America's political divide, 287 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 3: go to this guy. You know, they might not always 288 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 3: agree with them, but they're like, hey, Rob, what do 289 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 3: you think? Oh yeah, because his opinion matters. 290 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 2: Oh yeah. And there are a bunch of other individuals 291 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 2: we could get into, people like Gary Schmidt, SCCHM I T. T. 292 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 2: Tom Donnelly is one of the major authors that ends 293 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 2: up publishing things that become very important to this organization. 294 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 2: But Robert Kagan and William Bill Crystal are definitely the 295 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 2: primary guys. And oh boy, these two guys could be, 296 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 2: quite honestly their own episodes if you go into their 297 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 2: background and again, just like with George H. W. Bush, 298 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,679 Speaker 2: see where their influence has, where it's gone, and the 299 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 2: people they've touched and the lives they've influenced. But we're 300 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 2: not going to do that, right, We're going to talk 301 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 2: about an article they wrote together in nineteen ninety six. 302 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 3: Oh Yes, what a Banker title tepid Consensus, Their This 303 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 3: is their distrack basically toward the Clinton administration's foreign policy 304 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 3: in the nineties. And what they're saying is, Oh, I 305 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 3: don't want to sound hip hop about it, but what 306 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 3: they're saying essentially is you're a punk. All the stuff 307 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 3: that you have the United States doing is losing power 308 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 3: and it is losing influence and it is ultimately bad 309 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 3: for the United States. 310 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and fully dunking on that concept of spending two 311 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 2: point seven percent of GDP on defense spending, saying you're 312 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 2: weakening us, like we're not going to be able to 313 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: fight the battles. All of our foreign allies are going 314 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 2: to look down on us because we're going to be 315 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 2: too weak to defend them. When you know, rubber meets 316 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 2: the road. 317 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 3: Dunking is, by the way back, the perfect phrase. That's 318 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 3: what I was looking for. That's awesome. Yes, well, which 319 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 3: one dunking they are? Oh yeah, they're dunking on the potus. 320 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 2: Oh, that's it. That's definitely what's occurring here. And but 321 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 2: again it's not just on it's weird because in my mind, 322 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 2: it's not just to talk crap about, you know, the 323 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 2: sitting president that you don't agree with the views it's 324 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 2: about trying to get everybody else who's also a thinker 325 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 2: in this space to feel and think in a similar way, 326 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 2: or to get their gears turning so that it becomes 327 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 2: more of the same page deal, right, right, not. 328 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 3: Just the problem, but a proposed solution, exactly right. So 329 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 3: we're not going to tell you we're not just gonna 330 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 3: winge and complain. We're also going to provide a path forward. 331 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 3: And the argument from these two individuals and their cohort 332 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 3: has always been party takes a back seat to the 333 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 3: good of the country. Asterisk. 334 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 2: Oh well, we'll tell you about that asterisk later. It's 335 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 2: down the bottom of the page. So think about where 336 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 2: the United States was at that time. If you go 337 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 2: back in your history books, we went through this whole 338 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,919 Speaker 2: thing during the Vietnam War. Remember that that was the 339 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 2: late nineteen sixties. Nineteen sixty eight, we spent eight point 340 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 2: six percent of GDP on defense spending. Then by the 341 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 2: time we get to nineteen seventy nine that had fallen 342 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,239 Speaker 2: to four point five. But then we're seriously in this 343 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: Cold War thing, right, So everybody, like Bill Crystal, of 344 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 2: like the Bill Crystals of that time, came out and 345 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,959 Speaker 2: said no, we gotta spend more. What about Cuba? What 346 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 2: are you gonna do about Cuba? You haven't thought a 347 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 2: Cuba exactly. So that number in nineteen eighty five rose 348 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 2: to five point six percent of GDP spent on defense. 349 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 2: And now again we're in nineteen ninety nine or like 350 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 2: we're getting towards nineteen ninety nine, where we're lowering and 351 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,120 Speaker 2: lowering that number down to four percent, three percent, now 352 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 2: two point seven percent. So that's the that's a state 353 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 2: we find ourselves in. So everybody who is who has 354 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 2: any kind of either as you said, been ideological interest 355 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 2: in having the United States as the most powerful military, 356 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 2: the thing that cannot be stopped and will police the 357 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 2: word world and should police the world, they are going 358 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,959 Speaker 2: to want that number to rise, and they're going to 359 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 2: argue that until they can't. 360 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 3: Right, and there is to be absolutely fair, there is 361 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 3: validity to the concern. There is, So it's are there 362 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,959 Speaker 3: multiple what we would call conflicts of interest? Of course, 363 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 3: remember these are regular people who have access to pretty 364 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 3: significant funds as private individuals, and they know where to 365 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 3: put their money, they know how to make the money dance. 366 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 3: But it's also it doesn't invalidate the idea that the 367 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 3: world can be an ugly place. And if you do 368 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 3: not invest in this sort of force projection, then the 369 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 3: argument in a zero sum game is that force shall 370 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 3: be projected upon you. Oh exactly. 371 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 2: But this is the thing that I keep trying to 372 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 2: wrap my head around, and I know it's it's proportional. 373 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 2: So ultimately that's what we're dealing with. It's growing, you know, 374 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 2: at a rate compared to another thing. But the amount 375 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 2: of money spent on defense in six nineteen sixty five, 376 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 2: six point five percent, forty eight billion dollars, is dwarfed 377 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 2: by the two point seven percent spent in nineteen ninety nine, 378 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 2: which equals two hundred and sixty billion dollars. So, like, 379 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 2: just think about that, from forty eight to two hundred 380 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 2: and sixty billion dollars, and those numbers, those figures are 381 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 2: adjusted so they equal the same amount, right, It's not 382 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 2: like nineteen sixty five dollars versus nineteen ninety nine dollars. 383 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 2: It's all in uh equivalent dollars for the year twenty 384 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: twenty three. 385 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 3: And each of those dollars could have gone to a school, 386 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 3: a hospital, a library. I'm just not we can't not 387 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 3: shout about Eisenhower. 388 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 2: You're right, and it could have. But I guess the 389 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 2: idea is, even though we're only spending two point seven 390 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 2: percent in nineteen ninety nine, we are still spending so 391 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 2: much money on defense, Like it's that's an insane number, 392 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 2: two hundred and sixty billion dollars. 393 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 3: And at what point can we still call it defense? Right? 394 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 3: Like how much force can one project before you start 395 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,880 Speaker 3: to say, maybe a little proactive, it is a little offense. 396 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 2: Well, that's what we need to get further into it. 397 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 2: But one of the primary things a Project for New 398 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 2: American Century was writing about was griping about like DARPA 399 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 2: projects and projects that we're going through R and D 400 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,959 Speaker 2: right for like the F twenty two. Is the F 401 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 2: twenty two worth it? What about these new versions of 402 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 2: the howitzer cannons? We're spending a lot of money on that, 403 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 2: and how much force projection is that actually going to 404 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 2: give us? And you're just like, I can't wrap my 405 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 2: head round all of that stuff. They but they really 406 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 2: are trying to identify projects to spend billions of dollars 407 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 2: on that will last for decades and provide the most security. 408 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 3: Literally in the case of missiles like the hell Fire, 409 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 3: the most bang for your buck. Yeah, exactly, And we're 410 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 3: going to pause here for a word from our sponsors. 411 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 3: We'll be right back, and we have returned. 412 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 2: Let's keep going. What did they say in nineteen ninety six, ninety. 413 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 3: Seven, Oh yeah, so they published Tepid Consensus, their dunk 414 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 3: slash disc track, and then a year later in nineteen 415 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 3: ninety seven, they co found the think tank Project for 416 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 3: a New American Century. And what this does, really, it 417 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 3: doesn't occur in vacuum. What it does is it curates, 418 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 3: agglomerates a lot of thought and a lot of thought 419 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 3: leaders that have been sort of shouting with their own 420 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 3: separate microphones into the world. And they have a mission 421 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 3: statement where wherein they say specifically, we want to quote 422 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 3: set forth a new agenda for post Cold War, for 423 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 3: it and military policy that would ensure that the United 424 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 3: States could claim the twenty first century as its own. 425 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 3: And they say, US military dominance not only protects US 426 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 3: national security and national interests, but it also establishes and 427 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 3: this is the scary part, a global pox Americana, which 428 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 3: is a very a very fancy land way for saying 429 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 3: a peaceful world, so long as the US is in charge. 430 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 2: Ooh, I've heard that phrase before, pox Americana. I never 431 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 2: knew what it was. 432 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 3: It's a you'll see like pox, insert empire here applied 433 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 3: to so many things, right, like, hey, we're Rome and 434 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 3: everything's great, so long as we're at the top. 435 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 2: Right, it's is this the word we always throw around? 436 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 2: Are we here thrown around? Hegemony? 437 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 3: No? Yes, sir, yeah, hedge of money? I don't know, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. 438 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 3: So a world in which everybody checks with Uncle Sam 439 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,360 Speaker 3: first before they do things. Just make control, yes, yeah, 440 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 3: control an ultimate uh suzerain sovereignty. And it's an idea 441 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 3: that's very old. It's as old as you know the 442 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 3: first empires, right, Hama Rabbi is out there going. Things 443 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 3: are going to be great and super peaceful, so long 444 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 3: as you know my thing is king of the hill exactly. Yeah. Yeah. 445 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 3: And so there's also the Cold War thing, like you mentioned, 446 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 3: Soviet Union. The world is transitioning at this point from 447 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 3: a bipolar to superpower kind of situation to this more 448 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 3: unilateral thing. The USSR is clearly on the way out. 449 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 3: By the nineties, and the Boffins over a project for 450 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 3: new American Century. Say hey, let's run with it. Let's 451 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 3: make the US the one global superpower judge jury and 452 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 3: if need be, executioner all the globe round. And they were, 453 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 3: to their credit, they were very honest about this. They 454 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 3: were not like trying to wrap stuff up necessarily a mystery, 455 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 3: at least not at the beginning. And we're like, hey, 456 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 3: this is our thing, is what should happen, Let's do this. 457 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 3: And from nineteen ninety seven to about two thousand and 458 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 3: six they were super hard in the paint. 459 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 2: You know, oh yeah, yeah, they didn't stop. You can 460 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 2: go you can find the Project for the New American 461 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 2: Centuries website through the wave I think it's the Wayback Machine, 462 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 2: or it's like it's through archive dot org. So we 463 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 2: were able to go through that and find publications that 464 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 2: have been wiped from the Internet, but they exist fourth 465 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 2: dimensionally in the Wayback Machine and you can read about 466 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 2: all of these things. Sometimes it's a tiny little memo 467 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 2: that gets published that you can find there. Sometimes it's 468 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 2: a huge document that is a culmination like a kind 469 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 2: of like a project of the Project for the New 470 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 2: American Century, right where they got a bunch of different 471 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 2: thought leaders and ex military people to come together and say, hey, 472 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 2: identify a problem and give us the answer to it, 473 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 2: and we're gonna collate all of those different answers and 474 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 2: then we're gonna write a summary basically of let's say, 475 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 2: a almost an outline of what the Defense Department should 476 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 2: do to up its game and become powerful again. 477 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And they're they're big hobby horse. 478 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 3: We'll get to the site, but just the teaser, they're 479 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 3: big hobby horse. Of course is a rock. 480 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 2: Uh And yeah, no, that's important. 481 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 3: It's hugely important. 482 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 2: It was all about Iraq. But think about this, Bill Crystal, 483 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 2: will Willie Billy Crystal, will Billy Billy Will Crystal. He 484 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 2: is working for Quail, who is working alongside George H. W. Bush, 485 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 2: who invaded Iraq right in the Gulf War and it 486 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 2: went really well. It was over swiftly, but it was 487 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 2: like there was unfinished business there or something right. And 488 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 2: all Bill Crystal and his pals want to do is 489 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 2: get back into Iraq somehow and really punish them. 490 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 3: They wanted to. 491 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 4: Oh, Okay, I know, I know it's convoluted and it's strange, 492 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 4: but there isn't There is a fascination of perhaps an 493 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 4: obsession with projecting power in the middle. 494 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 3: Together. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and this is this is happening, 495 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 3: you know, in in the wake of Iran Iraq wars, 496 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 3: in the wake of stuff going down in Kuwait. Very 497 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 3: aware of this, uh, their ideas for the record when 498 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 3: they when they came out under the auspice of P 499 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 3: and A c. These ideas are massively popular in conservative circles. 500 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,959 Speaker 3: And for a lot of people who are hearing this, 501 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 3: they are hearing stuff they had thought before. This is 502 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 3: not new information to them. They're hearing it and it's 503 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 3: like they're in church, you know, like aim in, tell 504 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 3: them pastor let them know a rock. We got to 505 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 3: do something. And among the supporters the P and AC 506 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 3: are are some characters in our story, three Republican officials 507 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 3: who were on a little bit of R and R 508 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 3: you know, kind of biden their time, not. 509 00:32:58,720 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 2: A jil doing. 510 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 3: They're sitting out and they're laying low during the Democratic 511 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 3: presidential administration of Bill Clinton, Willie Bill Clinton, I don't 512 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 3: know a lot of bills. These three guys are. I 513 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 3: am almost sure for every American they will be names 514 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 3: that you recognize. Fellow conspiracy realist you might not know 515 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 3: the whole score with them, but you definitely have heard 516 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 3: these names before. 517 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 2: Let's do in this order, Okay. Paul Wolfowitz, which you 518 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 2: may not remember unless you watched a whole bunch of 519 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 2: political television back in the day, or watch a bunch 520 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 2: of documentaries. He's very important. Donald Rumsfeld that we remember 521 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 2: for many reasons, but he was high up in the 522 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 2: old defense areas there. And then Dick Cheney, the vice 523 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 2: president president vice president. 524 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 3: Okay, blurred lines. Indeed with that last one, right, these 525 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 3: names were commonplace in American and global media. And indeed 526 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 3: there was a time where if you turned on a 527 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 3: television back when people still like cable, you couldn't you 528 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,320 Speaker 3: couldn't go through three news channels without running into something 529 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 3: about one of these guys. Because they were very very 530 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 3: important in US policy. They were also super duper huge 531 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 3: fans of the Project for New American Century. And when 532 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 3: the first thing that the PNAC publishes, it's like June third, 533 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven, it's a statement of principles. And for 534 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 3: everybody from Cheney on down, this is a stem to 535 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:47,760 Speaker 3: stern banger. 536 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 2: This is like J Cole's first album. For them, you 537 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 2: know Oh that indeed a banger. Wow, yeah, really good stuff. 538 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 2: Not as much drive. I still I still hardly. I 539 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 2: don't know that all is a special place in my heart. 540 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 3: I agree that's a good one. But you know what, 541 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 3: what what are you going to do? Right? Like at first, 542 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 3: if you are the Clinton administration, then you might say, hey, 543 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 3: these think tanks publish stuff all the time about any given, 544 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,879 Speaker 3: any given matter. But these guys are so connected that 545 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 3: they are immediately taken seriously and they send like open 546 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 3: letters to the Clinton administration and different conservative leaders of Congress, 547 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 3: and they say from again to to their credit, they 548 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 3: don't shift tone, they don't switch up their game. They say, 549 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,720 Speaker 3: from day one, we got to get rid of Saddam Hussein. 550 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 3: We got to do more stuff more proactively in the 551 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 3: Middle East. And if people aren't going to help us, right, 552 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 3: if our allies or coalition of the Willing, if they're 553 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 3: not down to clown, we'll do it ourselves unilaterally. We 554 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 3: have to do this. We cannot depend on our previous partners. 555 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 3: From the Gulf War. 556 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh, they're all about going in there. They 557 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 2: were about setting up missile defense all across Europe, all 558 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 2: across all basically territories that would be considered allied areas. 559 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 2: And again, huge projects. And if we're going to talk 560 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 2: about defense spending, a major missile defense strategy that they 561 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 2: wanted that Robert Kagan was writing about in the Washington 562 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 2: Post as a part of PNAC, it would have cost 563 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 2: hundreds of millions, no billions. It would have cost billions 564 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 2: of dollars to make that happen, And it would have 565 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 2: put billions of dollars. It would have put millions of 566 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 2: dollars in the pockets of individuals who were connected to 567 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 2: those companies making like manufacturing all the things you would need. Right, 568 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 2: because if you're gonna build, let's imagine an array of 569 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 2: missiles on a coastline, right, it's not just the missiles 570 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 2: and the thing, the piece of machinery that fires that missile, Right, 571 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 2: it's the computer that tracks whatever the missile is being 572 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 2: fired at. It's the facilities for the human beings to 573 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 2: be in that are monitoring and using those systems. Like, 574 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 2: there's so much construction money that also gets wrapped up 575 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 2: in something like a missile defense program. But they're writing 576 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 2: about that like crazy all the time. And again it's 577 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 2: all in defense of an enemy, some enemy. Oh, I 578 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 2: guess we should say this ben another primary thing there's 579 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 2: writing about here is okay, Well, we no longer have 580 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 2: a primary enemy in the Soviet Union, so now we 581 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 2: are the hedgemon. What do we do to maintain this status? 582 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 2: How do we make sure there is not another enemy 583 00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 2: that can challenge us? And they do seem to target 584 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 2: literally al Qaeda or Saddam Hussein other powerful military leaders 585 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 2: in the Middle East as like people that we could 586 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 2: go after and basically that could stand in as our 587 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:16,240 Speaker 2: new Soviet Union. 588 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, just so shout out to a little book I've 589 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 3: got to hear somewhere called Where to Invade Next that 590 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 3: you and I talked about several years ago and at lists, 591 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 3: you know, not just a rock but also Syria, Iran, 592 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 3: Lebanon and Libya is another one. 593 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 2: Yep. Well, because if you don't have an enemy, then 594 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 2: why are you building all those big guns? Pal? Why 595 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 2: do you why are you making newer, more awesome F 596 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 2: twenty two fighter jets? 597 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 3: Right? And also conversely, if one does not limit the 598 00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:02,359 Speaker 3: growth of expansionist regimes, then they'll do what those regimes do, 599 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 3: They will expand, So they could be the idea is. 600 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 3: And it may sound a bit paranoid, but the idea 601 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:14,319 Speaker 3: is a regional threat today is a global threat tomorrow. Right, 602 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:21,280 Speaker 3: So we're preventing another USSR is the concept. Right, Let's 603 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 3: make sure these things don't get the TLC they need 604 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 3: in order to become a real world competitor another superpower. 605 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 3: And look the players in this game, in this p 606 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 3: and AC argument, they're like chess pieces. They're moving around 607 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 3: to assume different mission critical decision making positions of the 608 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,959 Speaker 3: like eighteen something people who signed these open letters ten 609 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,880 Speaker 3: went on to serve in the Bush administration, Bush the 610 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 3: second George W. Bush. We know it's confusing, but they 611 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 3: identified this real world's case study. Right. They said, let's 612 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 3: take it out of the realm of theory. Let's give 613 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 3: people something actionable to do, and let's make it a rock. 614 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 3: The only question then that they had was how to 615 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:17,240 Speaker 3: justify this plan to like, getting the conservative vote wasn't 616 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 3: enough because America is a very big place and there 617 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 3: are a lot of people who are not conservatives. Right. 618 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,359 Speaker 3: They may even react on a tribal level to that. 619 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,800 Speaker 3: They might hate an idea just because of the person 620 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 3: who is saying. Instead of evaluating the validity of the concept. Really, 621 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 3: what they needed is a reason. And just like how 622 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 3: fascism always needs an external enemy, this reason could be 623 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 3: anything at all. Let's take a pause here for a 624 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 3: word from our sponsors. We'll be right back, and we're back. 625 00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,719 Speaker 2: And in one of those big projects that we kind 626 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 2: of mentioned before, the Project for New American Century got 627 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,320 Speaker 2: together with a whole bunch of people including Donald Kagan, 628 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,800 Speaker 2: Gary Schmidt, who were the co chairman of the project, 629 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,759 Speaker 2: and Thomas Donnelly, who was an author who ended up 630 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 2: writing this big piece based on the writings of subject 631 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 2: matter experts in the defense industry. It was titled Rebuilding 632 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,879 Speaker 2: America's Defenses. It was published in September of the year 633 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 2: two thousand, one year before a really big thing happened 634 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:37,280 Speaker 2: in history, exactly one year they put this thing together. 635 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 2: It's huge. It's a massive document. You can find it 636 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 2: right now on that wayback machine that we talked about. 637 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,720 Speaker 2: It goes over the Project for the New American Century, 638 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 2: like again, all of the things we've talked about here, 639 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,319 Speaker 2: how it was established, who is a part of it, 640 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 2: why it exists, and then it goes down. I think 641 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 2: if you get to page fifty you get to section five, 642 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 2: and that is where it gets really really interesting. The subtitle, 643 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 2: I guess the title of that section is creating Tomorrow's 644 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:17,280 Speaker 2: Dominant Force, And it's kind of a to be honest, 645 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:19,800 Speaker 2: it's written really well, but it's kind of a difficult 646 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 2: read because there are a lot of concepts that get 647 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,359 Speaker 2: thrown in right, so you have to if you're not 648 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 2: used to reading words and sentences and concepts about the 649 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,319 Speaker 2: defense industry, then it could be overwhelming. But I would 650 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,160 Speaker 2: highly recommend you check it out because it is talking 651 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:42,239 Speaker 2: about increasing spending on military, It is talking about being 652 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 2: able to fight at least two wars at once. One 653 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 2: of the primary subjects in here, Ben is controlling both 654 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 2: cyberspace and space. 655 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:55,160 Speaker 3: Yeah space, space, yeah. 656 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,600 Speaker 2: Space actual and they and what they're talking about is like, 657 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,760 Speaker 2: we have to be pre eminent force in outer space 658 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 2: and if we are not, someone else will be. We 659 00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,399 Speaker 2: need a space force. They are calling in the year 660 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 2: two thousand for a space force, which is something that 661 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,360 Speaker 2: was not established until what late twenty teens or was 662 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,719 Speaker 2: it like twenty twenty. That's just crazy to me. 663 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 3: There's there's also a clear implication here that they don't 664 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 3: take the UN the United Nations, seriously, whatsoever. It's like 665 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 3: our earlier episode about storming the Hague. That's very much 666 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 3: their vibe. You know. They're like, yeah, I guess there's 667 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 3: some sort of treaty about space from the UN, but 668 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 3: come on, guys, we need we need cyber space, we 669 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,800 Speaker 3: need space actual I love your phrase there, Mat And 670 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 3: they also say, look, we have history on our side. 671 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 3: We are in We are the good guys here. We 672 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:04,319 Speaker 3: are correct in everything we're saying, and we are also pragmatic, 673 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 3: we are realist. We argue that over time there will 674 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:13,160 Speaker 3: be a slow shift toward our values. The US is 675 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:17,439 Speaker 3: the world's police. It'll be a slow burn. And then 676 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,800 Speaker 3: they hit us with that you know, that third act turn. 677 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:28,400 Speaker 3: They say, unless something happens, unless there ye a catalyzing event, 678 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:29,319 Speaker 3: I think they call it. 679 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,840 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, they're talking about the thing we've already discussed. 680 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,080 Speaker 2: The United States is the big power right now. There's 681 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,800 Speaker 2: no equal on the planet. We have to do everything 682 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,319 Speaker 2: we can to keep that power. So we need an 683 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 2: enemy to fight to show everyone that we are the 684 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 2: big power. And I'm gonna read from page fifty quote 685 00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,680 Speaker 2: the United States simply cannot declare US strategic pause while 686 00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,920 Speaker 2: experimenting with new technologies and operational concepts. Nor can it 687 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:02,239 Speaker 2: choose to pursue a t transformation strategy that would decouple 688 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 2: American and allied interests. A transformation strategy that solely pursued 689 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:11,120 Speaker 2: capabilities for projecting force from the United States, for example, 690 00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:15,440 Speaker 2: and sacrificed forward basing and presence would be at odds 691 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:19,240 Speaker 2: with larger American policy goals and would trouble American allies. 692 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,360 Speaker 2: What whatever. Nobody cares. I don't understand any of that. 693 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:27,960 Speaker 2: But page fifty one starts like this Further, the process 694 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:32,399 Speaker 2: of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely 695 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 2: to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing 696 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 2: event like a new Pearl Harbor a year prior to 697 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:43,920 Speaker 2: the nine to eleven attacks. 698 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's the key phrase they're saying. Look, there 699 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 3: will be a slow burn. Big change takes time. You know. 700 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,280 Speaker 3: We admit that the Heinz fifty seven approach to foreign 701 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,440 Speaker 3: policy is the law of the land for now. However, 702 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:03,440 Speaker 3: that's the third act they're going And also though if 703 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:10,359 Speaker 3: something were to happen, then our timeline escalates massively. In 704 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,400 Speaker 3: other words, if there is a watershed moment, a triumph, 705 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,480 Speaker 3: a disaster that up ends the usual bickering and bureaucracy 706 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:22,960 Speaker 3: of government. Then let those ponies run. All bets are off. 707 00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:26,799 Speaker 2: Well because think about Pearl Harbor. It was the thing 708 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 2: they got everybody on the same page. Oh, we need 709 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,080 Speaker 2: to fight, we have to fight. We let's get all 710 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,920 Speaker 2: the factories and let's build war machines because we have 711 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:37,200 Speaker 2: to fight. Look what they did. 712 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,960 Speaker 3: Look what they did to US defense Authorization acts go through, 713 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:47,040 Speaker 3: everybody puts their domestic differences to the side largely, and 714 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,640 Speaker 3: Congress becomes a rubber stamp. There is also very little 715 00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:56,239 Speaker 3: in terms of oversight or interrogation of policies. Right, so 716 00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,520 Speaker 3: the US wakes up in World War two, So great 717 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:06,160 Speaker 3: injustices occur. A ton of people get locked up just 718 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:10,879 Speaker 3: because somewhere in their family someone came from Japan. Right, 719 00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,920 Speaker 3: great injustice is very few questions, And it's a troubling 720 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,919 Speaker 3: thing that occurs because this observation, like you pointed out, Matt, 721 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:26,040 Speaker 3: proves eerily prescient. The attacks in September eleventh, two thousand 722 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:30,279 Speaker 3: and one occurred as if on que And I know 723 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 3: that's a statement that might give people a sour taste 724 00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:34,760 Speaker 3: in their mouths. 725 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:39,400 Speaker 2: Well, it certainly is. It seems that way if you 726 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:41,600 Speaker 2: just look at it and you choose to view it 727 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,680 Speaker 2: that way. Right, most people, I think, choose to not 728 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 2: look at it that way, and that is probably, you know, 729 00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,000 Speaker 2: that's probably the standard. Like you just you look at 730 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,239 Speaker 2: and say, well, no to September eleventh attacks or a thing. 731 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,239 Speaker 2: This is just some papers that were in the year before, right, 732 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 2: And I think that's the way we also look at it. 733 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:06,080 Speaker 2: But we have to at least imagine it because it 734 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:10,320 Speaker 2: is eerily is so eerie that this group of people 735 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:15,319 Speaker 2: wrote these statements right, curated this thing. Then many of 736 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:17,719 Speaker 2: them who were all on the same page end up 737 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 2: in the White House at the time of the attacks 738 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,000 Speaker 2: that become the next Pearl Harbor. 739 00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,880 Speaker 3: Dick Cheney is the most powerful vice president in US history. 740 00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,840 Speaker 3: Rumsfeld a Secretary of Defense, and our buddy Paul the 741 00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,960 Speaker 3: Wolfman wolf Witz is the deputy of Rumsfeld over at 742 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,080 Speaker 3: the Pentagon, which is still to date, by the way, 743 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:38,600 Speaker 3: the world's largest office building. 744 00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,520 Speaker 2: And they have beef with one guy that ends up 745 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,680 Speaker 2: in office, Colin Powell, because he's not a full team player. Well, 746 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:47,640 Speaker 2: there's a couple others, but Colin Powell is one of 747 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,160 Speaker 2: the big people that comes out after those attacks, and 748 00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,000 Speaker 2: it's like, look, yellow cake, guys, it's yellow cake. Make it. 749 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,680 Speaker 2: They have it there. We got to go in and 750 00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,560 Speaker 2: it's so we getting I've been. There's so much to 751 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:01,120 Speaker 2: cover here. 752 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,760 Speaker 3: This is a two burd at the at minimum, we're 753 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:06,680 Speaker 3: setting this stuff up. And I love that you're pointing 754 00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,240 Speaker 3: this out. The very next day, September twelfth, two thousand 755 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,680 Speaker 3: and one. You can read accounts of this too. It's 756 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:17,160 Speaker 3: very like it's like Catch twenty two level stuff, you know, 757 00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:18,799 Speaker 3: where they're like, well, I guess we're going to start 758 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:20,560 Speaker 3: a war, and they're like a war or like a 759 00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,080 Speaker 3: war against who? And I don't know. We'll figure it out. 760 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,720 Speaker 3: We got a meeting, but Rumsfeld on September twelfth says, 761 00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:32,960 Speaker 3: we have to go to Iraq. This should be a 762 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:37,080 Speaker 3: principal target of the first round the war on terror. 763 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,360 Speaker 3: And so all of a sudden, as if by design, 764 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,120 Speaker 3: one might argue not to be too bait or minehoff 765 00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,960 Speaker 3: about it, As if by design, what started as a 766 00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:51,560 Speaker 3: theory and ideology from Project for New American Century seemed 767 00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:55,560 Speaker 3: well on its way to becoming real world policy and 768 00:49:55,840 --> 00:50:02,000 Speaker 3: every like across the pond. European allies are incredibly upset 769 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:07,719 Speaker 3: about this. They're saying the PNAC specifically is the architect 770 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:13,640 Speaker 3: of quote, a secret blueprint for US global domination. And 771 00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,600 Speaker 3: that's why. Wow, yeah, I know they're not men some words, 772 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:21,600 Speaker 3: and this is a statement in multiple different outlets. That's 773 00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,879 Speaker 3: the vibe of Europe. We also know there are other 774 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:30,400 Speaker 3: players in the game. And Matt here, perhaps we pause 775 00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,719 Speaker 3: and we make this a two parter because we just 776 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:37,959 Speaker 3: mentioned something that people, our fellow conspiracy realists, have asked 777 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:43,080 Speaker 3: us about more than a decade September eleventh, in the aftermath, I'm. 778 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,680 Speaker 2: Kind of not looking forward to getting into. 779 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:47,400 Speaker 3: It, but same bro. 780 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:51,359 Speaker 2: Also, it's really important, so we're gonna do it. 781 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:56,320 Speaker 3: Let's do it. Here we go into the deep water, folks, 782 00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,399 Speaker 3: We want to hear your takes. As we mentioned, we'll 783 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,480 Speaker 3: be back later this week with part two of the 784 00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,920 Speaker 3: Project for New American Century. In the meantime, join us. 785 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,120 Speaker 3: We can't wait to hear from you. Find us on YouTube, Instagram, 786 00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:16,279 Speaker 3: of course, on the p and AC forum website, fanclub, 787 00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:21,680 Speaker 3: Big Big Fans. And if that doesn't quite if that 788 00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,080 Speaker 3: doesn't quite will at your bills. You can give us 789 00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:25,040 Speaker 3: a phone call as well. 790 00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:30,000 Speaker 2: Yes, our number is one eight three three st d WYTK. 791 00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,440 Speaker 2: When you call in you've got three minutes. Give yourself 792 00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:34,960 Speaker 2: a cool nickname and let us know in that message 793 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,200 Speaker 2: if we can use your name and message on the air. 794 00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:41,600 Speaker 2: If you've got more to send, maybe attachments, links, anything, anything, 795 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,280 Speaker 2: why not instead send us a good old fashioned email. 796 00:51:44,440 --> 00:52:06,600 Speaker 3: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 797 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:08,880 Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production 798 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:13,520 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 799 00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,759 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.