WEBVTT - Graduate Degrees Cost More 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:05.680 This is Bloomberg Business Wait inside from the reporters and 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.440 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.440 gloom O Business Finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:18.960 Week Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:24.239 Open the morning and out the room. 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:29.680 The teacher is teaching them. 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:31.920 I'm all right, everybody, we are going to talk about 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:35.600 school a little bit. And now of the third quarter 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:37.879 is officially in the books, everyone is thinking about the 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:41.040 fourth quarter. And one of the things that could help 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:43.400 create a bit of a reality check for the world 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:47.479 at large, for investors, for consumers, and that is what 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:51.480 happens when it comes to paying back those student loans. 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:55.200 Absolutely, I mean, there's been a real question mark among 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:58.920 all the companies that have brought this up. But also 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:03.520 more important, did you know graduate students are taking on 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:08.760 an outsized share of federal student loans. In fact, even 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:13.520 I feel forty seven percent of the total overall share 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:16.840 of student loans went to graduate students. And our Bloomberg 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:20.679 News Higher Education finance reporter Janet Lauren has a great 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:23.600 story on this, so definitely read it, but first listen 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:27.000 to her here she joins us via zoom in New 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:31.080 York City. So, Jennet, your story looks specifically at graduate 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:34.160 students who borrowed money. What did you find out? 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:39.839 So, graduate students are borrowing a lot of money. In fact, 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:44.320 if you look at the annual disbursements between who's borrowing, 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:49.400 they're almost they're set to borrow more than undergraduates. And 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:52.120 it sounds kind of crazy because there's a lot of 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:54.480 people going to college and not as many people going 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:57.240 to graduate school. But they're borrowing quite a lot of money. 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:02.320 And the reason is because undergrad are limited to roughly 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:05.960 thirty thousand dollars of federal loans over four years. But 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:08.760 if you're going to graduate school, you can borrow quite 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:11.960 a lot up to the cost of attendance, and in 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:15.280 some cases you're talking eighty thousand or more per year, 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:19.320 and that also includes housing and living expenses. So that's 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:23.040 one reason. And another reason is the interest rates. This year, 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:26.040 if you're going to graduate school, you would be taking 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:28.920 out a grad plus loan with an interest rate that's 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.840 over eight percent for the first time in a dozen years, 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:36.920 and grad plus loans accrued during college, so you know 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:39.040 you're taking out a lot of money, and it's a 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:41.519 lot more people are going to graduate school and taking 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:47.000 these large amounts, and it's accruing, so it's roughly half 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:51.280 of the annual disbursements and Education Department economists are boried 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:54.720 as it's set to eclipse undergraduate borrowing. 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:56.480 You know, I just feel like it speaks to this 0:02:56.520 --> 0:03:00.240 bigger problem of cost of college, the loans that are 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:03.519 taken out, and then ultimately, Janet, does it pay off 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:05.800 in terms of the jobs they get. We've seen all 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:08.040 the studies about gett a college education and you tend 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:11.680 to do better when it comes to your income over time. 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:15.080 But having said that, these graduate students who are taking 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:18.079 on these loans, do they ultimately get jobs that make 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:20.040 financial sense so they pay it off pretty easily. 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.760 Well, it's a great question. We know that college is 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:26.959 viewed as a ticket to a better living, but it's 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:29.560 just not clear about graduate degrees. It's, first of all, 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:31.880 it's going to depend on the type of degree and 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:35.120 where you're going to school. If you're going to Harvard 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:37.480 Law School or a top law school, or a top 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:43.320 MBA program or a top engineering school, chances are you'll 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:45.839 have a better chance of getting a job to pay 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:49.120 it off. But we spoke to some labor economists who 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:53.240 looked at online resumes and online job postings, and there's 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:56.240 a lot more people with graduate degrees in their resumes 0:03:56.840 --> 0:04:00.600 and the job listings that looked for, you know, graduate 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:05.840 degrees were really stagnating. And the question is, uh, you know, 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:08.560 what are they What are the people who are employing you, 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:10.400 what are they valuing? Do they want to know you 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.680 have skills? Or do they even care about a graduate? Well, 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:15.920 and of course if you want to, yeah, oh go ahead. 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:17.520 No, I was, you know, I was thinking about my 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:19.560 own career. Like It's like, at one point I said 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:21.640 to somebody, should I go back and get a graduate degree? 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:24.039 And I knew I was already doing journalism, and she's like, 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:25.560 you're doing it, that's the best. 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:28.000 I had a similar experience. I don't know if Janet, 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:29.160 do you get a graduate No? 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:29.640 I didn't. 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.040 Ultimately thought about it, decided not to do it. But Janet, 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:34.520 I don't know if you've had the same experience. 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:38.560 Well, I did, but I went right out of college 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.000 and it was a lot less expensive then. 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.039 Well, and that's something your story says too, is that 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:48.440 the costs for these degrees have gone way way up, 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:50.720 and so you have people not necessarily earning as much 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:53.600 money in their overall careers, but then they're also having 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:56.120 to pay off these bills that just seem to be 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:57.680 wildly more expensive. 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:00.240 Right, Yeah, I mean, if if you want to go 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:02.920 to a graduate school, find someone else to pay for it, 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:04.880 if your parents are able to pay for it, if 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:07.560 your employer is able to pay for it, if you 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.040 can go to a state program that doesn't cost a 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:14.200 lot of money, then you know, then in some ways 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:16.360 it could be an easy decision, but you have to 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:19.280 do this calculus. And you know, some of the borrowers 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:21.559 we spoke to in the story, they just weren't sure 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:24.800 what to do after college, and they thought that these 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:27.440 degrees would give them higher earnings, and it just doesn't 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:28.360 always happen that way. 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:31.520 Gosh, you talk about Brielle in your story, who went 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:33.800 to Eckard College in twenty twelve. Anyway, she went off 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:36.840 to get a law degree. I mean, you note Janet 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:39.599 that she says it's going to take until twenty forty 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:42.200 five to pay off her loan. She got a law degree, right, 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:45.640 and she expects it to grow to about two hundred 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:47.680 and forty five thousand dollars worth interest. I mean that's 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:48.760 some serious money. 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:53.320 Yeah, and she found a job that with a law 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:57.040 firm that she really enjoys. But as it turns out, 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:00.440 it doesn't require a law degree. It's working in comple flience, 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:03.240 which was something she would not have found otherwise if 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:05.800 she hadn't gone to law school. But you know, it's 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:08.839 just it's just a calculus and in some cases the 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:11.800 risk that people are taking because they thought it would 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:14.600 it would pay off, and it doesn't always pay off. 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:17.960 What we have you can we talk about another story 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:21.200 you wrote. Uh, the school that is so steeped in 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.760 wells and prestige has also been steeped in scandal and 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:30.039 now searching for a new president. The area in which 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:31.960 it resides in and which it's so connected to, the 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:35.640 US tech epicenter also going through a reboot that will 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:40.400 no doubt impact Stanford as well. Talk to me about 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:44.080 the standing of this institution in our world at large 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:52.040 and how that might change. Uh if given all these factors. 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:53.800 Well, Stanford is going to be just fine. 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:57.080 There's going okay, all right, We're just gonna. 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:00.719 Get They're going to get a good president. You know, 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.880 tens of thousands of kids are still clamoring to go there. 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:06.800 But they've had to deal with a lot of a 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:12.520 lot of scandals. Frankly, their president resigned. He there were 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:15.400 a lot of questions in his research. He's a really 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:20.960 prominent UH scientist, and he actually had to retract a 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.480 couple of articles, which is a pretty big deal in 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:27.720 the scientific community and the and this was all discovered 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:32.080 in the student newspaper, which is really impressive. And a 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.480 lot of the big scandals in tech or you know, 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:38.360 the Stanford name is dragged into it ft X, the 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:42.920 Crypto Exchange. That's you know, Sam bankmin Fred is going 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.040 on trial next week his parents. Our law schools there 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:48.920 in our Bloomberg colleagues had a great story a few 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:54.000 weeks ago about their involvement. Of course, there's you know, 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:58.880 Stanford dropout had a big tie to Silicon Valley, and 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:03.400 there's just a lot of stuff going on there. So 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:07.600 you know, we'll see. But Stanford raises more money in 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:10.960 some years than Harvard. They get more you know, government 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:15.360 research funding than schools that are hundreds of years older 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:17.840 than them. You know, in one sense, you know, four 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.960 Nobel Prizes in the last couple of years raising a 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:24.640 billion dollars. But on the other hand, you know there's 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:26.000 a lot going on there. 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:29.320 Yeah, I love Stanford's fundraising alone over the last six 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:33.360 fiscal years exceeded seven billion dollars. Pretty serious money. And 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:35.880 I have to say, when Bloomberg BusinessWeek does the annual 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:40.000 NBA survey, it is often number one, and I think 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:43.640 as well, Yes, it's consistently number one, So it's kind 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:45.800 of where students want to go, and they seem to 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:48.240 like it a lot. Jennet Lauren, thank you so much. 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:50.760 Have a good and safe weekend. Higher Education Finance reporter 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:54.040 app Blomberg News. Joining us on zoom from New York City. 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:57.160 I'm Carol Massa along with Simone Foxman in for Tim Stenevik. 0:08:57.400 --> 0:08:59.440 You're listening and watching Bloomberg Radio. 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:09.320 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.720 live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen on 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:16.800 Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app, 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:19.360 or watch us live on YouTube. 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:22.680 When it comes to newsflow, there's a lot. When it 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:24.640 comes to anything and everything to do with AI, the 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:28.840 European Union, in fact checking, out and examining alleged anti 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:32.000 competitive abuses and ships used for AI. It's a market 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:35.840 that we know is dominated by Nvidia, even so maybe 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:38.360 some concerns. We'll see where that goes. It may go nowhere. 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:41.240 The world does seem to be all in when it 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:43.640 comes to artificial intelligence. That Our next guest works with 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:47.640 companies to better use data nai efficiency, yes, but also 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.240 to help companies become more sustainable. So let's get to it. 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.600 Our guest is Christina Shims. She has Global HAAD, a 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:57.520 product and strategy at IMBM Sustainability Software. She is with 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.800 us on Zoom in Atlanta. Christina, Yeah, good to have 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:02.720 you here with us. Tell us a little bit about 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:05.000 what you guys are doing when it comes to AI 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:08.440 and helping companies to be more sustainable. 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:10.680 Absolutely, thanks for having me. 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:11.120 Yeah. 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:13.560 So, look, sustainability is one of those things that is 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.120 not going away with anything. It's becoming more and more 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:19.280 of an issue. We're seeing it affect everyone from communities 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:23.600 to businesses, to governments and regulations coming out. You're seeing 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:25.520 it with extreme weather. You're seeing that in New York 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:28.960 today with the flooding and the rain that's happening and 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:31.000 this past summer was the hottest. 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:31.920 In recorded history. 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:36.000 And so what we are doing is ensuring that we 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:40.000 can work with our partners to make sure that they 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:45.320 are headed towards and leveraging technology in reaching their sustainability goals. 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.840 More than two thirds of employees wanting now work for 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:53.040 companies that have sustainability goals committed towards. 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:55.240 But what does that mean? So what does it mean 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:57.480 when you are helping them? Like, what specifically? Give us 0:10:57.520 --> 0:10:58.960 an idea if you would an example. 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:04.480 Yeah, absolutely, So, Look, the biggest challenge here is data. Basically, 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:09.120 organizations have a really difficult time working through multiple different silos. 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:12.079 I'm talking hundreds of different systems and spreadsheets all around 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.120 the organizations to really get a sense for where the 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:16.240 baseline is. 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:17.760 For their sustainability posture. 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:20.199 So, if you have hundreds of different systems where you 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:22.760 have data, you can't necessarily make sense of it in 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:26.800 one single system of record. It's really difficult for organizations 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:29.720 to understand where they are, where they need to go, 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:33.120 and how to get there. And so while organizations have 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:37.400 these committed sustainability targets, they also have to think about 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:39.400 it as core to the business. This is not just 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:43.920 good for good's sake. It's also good for business, and 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:47.360 so what AI helps to do is to unlock the 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:50.360 potential of all of that data. One is, how do 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:52.319 you make sure that you are bringing all that data 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:54.480 into that single system of records so that you can 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:57.000 understand where you are, where you need to go, and 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.080 how to get there and how to get there? Is 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:01.240 what are the insights that you are able to draw 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:03.280 from the data so that. 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:04.600 You can actually action on it. 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:06.679 Right now, there's not a lot of time, I want 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:08.120 to say, not a lot of time left. We have 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:12.120 to act very quickly and urgently around climate and towards 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:17.280 sustainability for businesses and for communities. And unlocking the potential 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.880 of all of that data through AI is where this 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.000 is all going. And that's what we do with our 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:25.559 partners and our customers to help enable that. 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.600 Okay, but this doesn't sound that sexy to some degree, 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:33.040 like this sounds like data management, data crunching. What about 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:35.000 this is like artificial intelligence? 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:37.360 Yeah, so AI really helps. 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:40.040 It's not I joke that it's really the non sexy stuff, 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.360 but that's really what helps us to get towards the 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:46.760 action that's needed. So AI enables better and faster decisions 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:49.800 on both the sustainability and on the business front. It 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:53.000 helps across a couple areas, right, so you mentioned the efficiencies. Yes, 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.480 it helps with energy costs, it helps with emissions. It 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:59.680 can help to do a couple things like monitor and 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:03.920 make pain physical assets around your infrastructure, around your factory. 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:04.520 Things like that. 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:08.320 It can optimize how inventory is routed around the world. 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:12.840 It can detect anomalies that drive zo defect goals, right, 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.800 It can write how computing, It can schedule task So yeah, 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:18.520 these are not really sexy things to do, but at 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:20.960 the end of the day, this is what really helps 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:24.600 to make a difference in actioning what that zero commitment 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:26.520 or what goals organizations help set. 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.120 Christy to help us though, because AI not a new thing, 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.400 been around for decades, right, artificial intelligence, and so we 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.320 always kind of remind everybody, but the world has become 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:40.480 so excited with generative AI and how that takes us 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.520 maybe to a different level in terms of data management 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.920 and usefulness. So what has changed in terms of you 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.000 guys have been working with AI for a long time, 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:52.520 no doubt about it. Has something changed though in your 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:56.120 ability to help customers when it comes to maintaining their 0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:01.600 sustainability targets are monitoring of those targets. 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:03.760 Yeah, so that's a great question. 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:09.560 One is that increasingly customers are more inclined to think 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.440 about how generative AI can actually help them with their 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:17.439 business and sustainability problems. There's much more appetite for customers 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:23.360 to inherently and intentionally use AI for these problems. Two 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:28.280 is that it can help make the automation and reporting 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:31.800 of data and decreasing of emissions much faster and increasingly, 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:33.920 I would say, especially in the last few years, even 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:37.560 before generative AI became the hot topic or the trendy topic, 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:41.160 customers were already starting to think about it because regulations and. 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:42.240 Compliance were coming out. 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:46.400 But this is really catapulted and accelerated, I would say 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:49.040 in the last year or so, you're seeing regulations come 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:52.080 out in the EU, increasingly in the US. You saw 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:56.280 what happened this past month in California with their emissions law, 0:14:56.560 --> 0:15:00.360 and so using foundation models and using AI can actually 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:05.040 help to solve these problems faster. But also appetite from 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:08.200 the customer side has changed quite a bit. And so 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:10.800 I think a combination of how we are addressing AI 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.400 as part of what we're doing and increasing kind of 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:17.640 the acceleration of that using foundation models with assisting products 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:18.400 and new products. 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:20.560 Does you know what I wonder? Does it move the 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.280 needle for you guys at IBM financially, I mean, has 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:28.360 generative AI and then when it comes to sustainability needs 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.840 of customers, does that create a significant new revenue stream 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:33.960 for you guys? And we just got about thirty seconds. 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:37.320 Yeah, I will say that there's a real hunger for this, right, 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:39.360 there's a real appetite, there's a real hunger for this, 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.760 and customers know that this is a game changer, so they. 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:43.240 Will do that. 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:48.200 They will they will inherently look to adopt the technology 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:50.600 in a way that they know has meaning in both 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.640 their business and sustainability. And they know that we are 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:56.120 working with them to ensure that we're doing this in 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:59.080 an unpliased and a transparent way because I know that 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:01.680 there are some areas of AI that you know, we 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:03.040 need to make sure that we're doing it in the 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:06.920 right way. And so the customers that are most for 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:09.240 leaning and really interested in this, which I would say 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:11.440 all the customers that we're talking to are, so they're 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:13.360 making sure that they're integrating that as part of it, 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:16.160 with that increased apple and intentionality, and I think that 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:19.160 that is where the market is and where the appetite. 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:19.120 Is for sure. 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:22.280 All Right, appreciate that some context. Christina Shim, Global head 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:25.200 of Product and Strategy and IBM Sustainability Software, joining us 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:27.640 in zoom in Atlanta. I always feel like time will 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:30.360 tell I kind of like chatbots, but we'll see. 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:32.600 But it would be good if people wanted to save 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:34.880 the environment, because it's cool. 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:36.880 All in on that. This is Bloomberg. 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:42.280 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:46.440 live weekday afternoons from three to six Easter on Bloomberg Radio, 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.800 the Bloomberg Business app and YouTube. You can also listen 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.000 live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. 0:16:53.480 --> 0:17:03.640 Just say Alexa, play Bloomberg eleven thirty to love. 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.320 All right, everybody's public you me. Everyone remains largely in 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:12.440 the dark about a process in the making of plastic. 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.000 It is known as fluorination and the toxics pfas that 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.720 are generated in the process. Those PFA's compounds found to 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:23.159 be so dangerous that the US Environmental Protection Agency had 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:26.160 moved to effectively ban them. Back in twenty fifteen, there 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:29.520 is one company, little known that seems to be at 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:32.600 the center of it. Got to get to this story. 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:34.480 It is a feature in the new issue of Bloomberg 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.600 Business Week, on newsstands, online at Bloomberg dot com, slash 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:39.480 business Week, and on the Bloomberg with Us. To talk 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.000 about it is Bloomberg News reporter Esme Duprez and also 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:45.280 the editor of Bloomberg Business Week, Jill Weber on zoom 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:46.960 in New York City. Jill, I feel like you just 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:50.800 keep bringing to me and to our audience stories about 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:54.439 things that make me a little worried, whether it's the 0:17:54.480 --> 0:18:00.000 Google search abilities and location abilities, or whether it's plastic 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.639 and how is that maybe impacting me? 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.320 Yeah, so as many as reporting on this story is 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:11.800 sensational and it will really terrify everyone. And I've spent 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:16.120 the past few weeks since reading this the first version 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:18.080 of the story like going through my life and just 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.880 basically like flipping over every plastic bottle and container and 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:25.520 looking for a number two symbol, as may why is 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:26.960 number two a problem? 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:28.440 Yeah? 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.240 Well that's a big picture. I mean, this story is 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:34.000 about pfas, which are these enormous, you know, this enormous 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:35.800 class of man made chemicals that have been used for 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:38.520 decades to make all kinds of things you know better, 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:41.640 but scientists are increasingly ringing alarm bills about them as 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:43.560 we learn how toxic they are and the ways in 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:46.840 which they harm our bodies and the environment. So this, uh, 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:49.439 the story really is about the scientific discovery of a 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:51.960 new root of exposure to p fas. And how there's 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:53.800 just one company, Carol, as you said, in the US 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:58.080 A responsible for making them, or for generating these illegal 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:02.119 toxic compounds, and how despite demands from the US government 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:05.240 and the Department of Justice EPA, the company just flat 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:08.080 out refused to stop. And that number two symbol is 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:10.960 really important because that's the type of plastic that this 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:15.479 company typically treats. It's called HDPE plastic. It's rigid, it's 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:18.879 usually opaque. It's used for everything from milk judge jugs 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:22.520 to snowboards, and that's typically the plastic that they're treating 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:26.399 and as a result, generating pfas and some of the 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:27.440 worst p fas at that. 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:33.440 So as may so much of your reporting is terrifying. 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:37.880 But how big is this company who owns the why 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:40.680 hasn't the EPA just managed to shut it down if 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:41.960 all this stuff is so troubling. 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:45.160 Yeah, that's a great question. So Enhanced Technologies is actually 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:47.080 a really small company. I got a hold of some 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:50.280 documents from twenty eighteen. It showed they just had forty 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:52.320 six million dollars in annual revenue in twenty eighteen. So 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:54.760 obviously that's not a ton They only have a few 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:57.800 hundred employees. But they really built up this domestic monopoly 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:00.960 on this process called postmodilorination, which is this treatment of 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:03.800 plastic to make it stronger, and like, this treatment is 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:07.320 actually really useful. Uh, you know, plenty of companies have 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:11.600 wanted this treatment for decades because it makes plastics less permeable, 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:16.040 so you can transport you know, harsh chemicals and solvents 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.119 and things like essential oils. You know, the reason for 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:22.240 fluorination is that conventional plastic will permeate through the container 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:24.880 walls if you don't provide a barrier of some sort. 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:27.720 So that's the reason why they're fluorinating their plastic. That's 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:30.280 why they're they're treating this plastic in this way, right, 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:34.160 And so the EPA has gone after them and uh, 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:37.040 you know, so as the Justice Department, they have essentially 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:39.919 they're they're in violation of a really you know, wonky 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:43.040 chemical law and basically they just they say this law 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.280 doesn't apply to us, and so we're just going to continue, 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:49.200 you know, going on business as usual. Obviously as they 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:51.640 fight this you know, this battle with EPA and now 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:56.200 they fight this litigation in in federal court. 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:02.119 So the the litigation obviously makes this incredibly timely. Is 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:06.080 there any sense of what the what the outcome of 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:09.840 this looks like for the timeline and also like what 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:14.119 about the health implications and the economic implications of whatever 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:15.360 the outcome becomes. 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.240 Yeah, so the litigation is ongoing, so Enhanced kind of 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:24.720 is fighting two battles. They're fighting one battle against the 0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:28.600