WEBVTT - David Pepper explains how Ohio can become a blue state again 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:04.640 Thanks for listening. For earlier access to these episodes, access 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:08.160 to Ask Me Anything sessions, and extended breakdowns of historical 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:12.760 and current events, Please consider joining our Warning Premium community 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:19.680 by clicking the link in the description to this episode. 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:23.759 I'm very pleased today to be joined by the former 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:28.840 Democratic Party Chairman of the great State of Ohio, David Pepper, 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:34.440 an author of multiple books, including his latest, Saving Democracy, 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:38.400 a user's manual for every American. Welcome David Pepper. 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:40.600 Thank you, it's honored to be with you. Steve. 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:45.960 David, you were the chairman Democratic Chairman, Democratic Party Chairman 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:50.560 of the state of Ohio, which has become a Republican 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:55.000 state in recent years, but up through the two thousand 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:58.800 and four Bush election, which I was part of. In 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:03.800 two thousand and eight, was considered to be the really 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:08.400 top swing state along with Florida that decided the election. 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:13.319 Just in a nutshell, what happened. This was a state 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:16.960 that narrowly went to George Bush in two thousand and four, 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:24.280 Barack Obama in two thousand and eight, to Donald Trump 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:29.800 by two thousand and sixteen, and coming into twenty twenty four, 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:37.360 this looks like a Republican state except for and we'll 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:41.080 talk about that in a minute, some of the overreach 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:45.760 of the party and in the election snapback, but in 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:50.840 a nutshell for people who are not from Ohio, talk 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:59.040 about what happened, and then secondly, talk about how corrupt 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:03.560 the state has become under the one party rule of 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:05.200 the Ohio Republican Party. 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:08.960 Sure, and a great question, and it brings back painful 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:13.040 memories when you were celebrated. I wasn't four all day. 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:15.200 We were being told that Carrie was going to win, 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:18.480 and I was out of the poll trying to help. 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:20.800 But big picture, you know, I think it's fair to 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:23.679 say that Ohio always lean, has always leaned a couple 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:26.519 points to the right, and only it's been quite fifty 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:30.160 to fifty, especially for state out sorry, state level elections, 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:32.600 you know, governor others. So if you're winning Ohio as 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:34.960 a Democrat, you're gonna win. You're going to win the country. 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:38.000 But it's it's not a fifty to fifty proposition to begin. 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.880 It's a little bit uphill from there. But obviously good 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:45.600 candidates think Barack Obama could win it. What's happened, you know, 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:51.160 A couple of things. One, I mean, there is there 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:54.520 we have become a bellweather. Now I'm afraid of how 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:57.400 you can use the powers of state government to make 0:02:57.440 --> 0:02:59.359 a state hard to win if you're a Democrat. The 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:03.600 old old margins of victory that wet Barack Obama, for example, 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:06.600 enjoyed in eight and twelve have been made far more 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:11.200 difficult by pretty relentless purging of voters in Ohio. That's 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:15.680 made the margins harder to achieve. You know, Hillary Clinton 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:19.720 and Joe Biden both won Cuyahoga County by a greater 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:23.400 percentage of registered voters than Barack Obama did, but because 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:27.519 there's so many fewer registered voters thanks to years of purging, 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:32.440 their actual raw vote margins were lower significantly than Barack Obama. 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:36.440 So the base of Ohio's Democratic side has actually got 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.520 a little smaller. And you could blame Democrats that are 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:41.360 not firing up the base enough, but we also know 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:44.760 that purging's part of that. There's no doubt that Donald 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:48.840 Trump also, though, really started a fire in parts of 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:52.280 the state that weren't turning out as much true rural 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:56.880 but also flip some areas like the Valley to some degree, 0:03:57.360 --> 0:03:59.280 and all the way down the Ohio River on the 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:01.800 east side of the state that Ted Strickland used to 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:06.440 win handily. So our base has gotten smaller through purging 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:10.160 and less energized voters. And Donald Trump took a part 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:12.280 of the state that used to vote for Democrats and 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:15.960 has moved it in some case because he's talked about 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:19.320 issues like trade in the way that Democrats there used 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:21.400 to talk about it. And you add that up in 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:24.279 a state that used to be more swing has gotten 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:28.040 harder to win. So you put those two together, it's harder. 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:30.480 But it doesn't mean that a Sheriff Brown couldn't win 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:34.520 in twenty four And it also means that Tim Ryan 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:37.720 people don't give him enough credit. Tim Ryan lost by 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:43.320 six when the governor candidate lost by twenty six, massive overperformance. 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:46.480 That's a winning effort in a normal year with good turnouts. 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:49.559 So it's still achievable for a Democrat, but it's gotten 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:52.280 a lot harder with some of the trends I talked about. 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:54.520 Well, Tim's a good friend of mine and I was 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:56.800 involved in that race and it was as good a 0:04:56.800 --> 0:05:00.520 political campaign as I've ever been involved in. But you 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.680 just you just can't win if the top of the 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:07.560 ticket goes down by by twenty six points. 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:11.560 And and I had a theory about that race, and it 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:16.040 was that Mike DeWine, I think was evaluated by Ohio 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.159 voters as he's been around for a long time. 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:23.240 He's not going to do anything to particularly make my 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:29.280 life more difficult. He's drama free. But not so long 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:32.839 after the election here right where we're two years after 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.560 or less than a year after. You know, the governor 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:40.880 has seen seemed to be on his back. Heels uh 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:46.400 to be severely weakened, and the Republican extremists in Ohio 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:51.760 have overreached and been severely rebuked in recent weeks. And 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:56.040 why don't you talk about that, talk about the issue 0:05:56.520 --> 0:06:01.000 and how you see that as a party chairman, as 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:03.719 the winds are blowing out there that may well be 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:07.560 contrary to what we're constantly told is going to happen 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:10.960 from Washington, d C. Which rarely ever does. 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.320 Yeah, well, let me just say, Mike the Wine benefited 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:16.839 from this long time image of being an old type 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:19.880 of Republican, the more moderate one. He was actually quite 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:24.760 responsible during COVID and I think versus Tim, Mike the 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.280 Wine did very well in suburbs that Tim then ended 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:29.159 up winning tim Ran ended up winning as well, so 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:33.000 he really benefited from a responsible response to COVID that 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.359 got a lot of credit with more moderate voters, including women. 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:42.279 That's all dramatically changed since the second term began. We 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.320 are now a bellweather, not as to who's win the presidency. 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:48.080 We have become a bellweather as to what it looks 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:51.520 like when a far right group of extremists takes over 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.280 your state through a Jerrymaer state house. That's what we 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:56.599 now represent and what this is why I wrote this 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:59.960 first book called Laboratories of Autocracy. We are what happened. 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:02.440 We are what can happen to a state that's been 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:07.040 generally moderate when it's been hijacked by a jerrymannered extremist group. 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:08.919 And that's why what we are seeing and living in 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.000 Ohio is just like Missouri. It's just like Tennessee, and 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.960 it's a downward spiral. And what was so great in 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:18.640 what we see in states like Ohio is cowardly moderates 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:24.320 who know better, like Mike DeWine and John Hughestead and 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:27.720 others in Portman before them. They never stand up to it, 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.960 and so the far right takes over these states. And 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:34.360 what issue one was was a far right kind of 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.520 a jail break. Try to say, Okay, we are living 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:42.200 in these extremist legislative districts, we want to pass things 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:44.160 that we know the people of how don't agree with. 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:48.400 And because we've gotten away with jerrymandering, because the state 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:50.920 Supreme Court is in the same hands of the party 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:54.520 that controls our state House, we know that the only 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:59.480 check on us, on our extremism and our lack of accountability, 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:03.320 the only check are the people themselves going to the Constitution. 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:07.240 And these greedy right wingers said, we're gonna get rid 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:09.480 of that check too. We don't want any checks left. 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:12.480 And the great and Mike DeWine, like he always does, 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:14.640 like he did with Jerry Mannering, went along with all 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:18.160 of it. And the great news last week is, and 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:22.320 this is really important, a multi partisan coalition of people 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:26.240 Democrats of course, but independence and a whole lot of 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:28.640 Republicans and a whole lot of counties that you guys 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:30.880 would have been planned on winning. And oh Ford, since 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.880 when you were running those campaigns, said hell no, we 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:37.480 may not agree on everything, but we see this for 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.200 what it is. It's a power grab by extremists. To 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.360 destroy a house democracy. We're not for it, we're voting 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:46.120 it down. That's why Casey was against it. That's why 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:49.160 Bob Taff was against it. That's why Democrats were against it. 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:52.600 And you'll love this, Steve being having run in Ohio, 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:55.600 that's where Delaware County. That's why Delaware County voted against it. 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.280 That's why Portage County, that's why Butler County, a very 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:03.800 republican large county, fifty to fifty, it almost reached a majority. Know, 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.640 And so you saw this really broad. I would say 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:11.679 it's sort of a new pro democracy coalition saying we 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:14.600 see what this is. We may be Republicans, but this 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:17.160 is not what democracy is about. And they joined hands 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.080 with independent Democrats and we felt the thing. So it 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:23.280 was a great day. That was basically Mike the Wine 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:25.640 allowed himself to be taken in by the far right 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:28.440 like he always does, and people saw it as a 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:31.960 far right attackle democracy and it was rejected accordingly, which 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:34.480 was obviously a great day, not just for Ohio but 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:35.360 across the country. 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:38.880 And what's the fallout, excuse me, what's the fallout been? 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:43.920 Since people, the far right politicians who brought this to 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:48.560 Ohio voters tried to foist it on them, are saying, 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.080 what about it? Are they chasing it all? 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:57.040 No? Again, most of these people have in their entire careers, 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:00.720 especially the state House members, never been in the world democracy. 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:04.560 They've been in districts that they cannot lose. So their 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.880 reaction isn't just like nothing they do is the behavior 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:12.080 you'd expect any normal democracy. Their reaction is not also 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.080 what you'd expect normal democracy. What would you and I do? 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:18.240 And if we were in anything close to competitive districts 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:21.920 and this happened, we'd say, the voters are spoken, we've 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:24.800 learned our lesson, We're going to eat some humble pie. 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.760 We'll do things differently. What have they done, like Franklin 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:30.400 Rose this horrible sector of state we're stuck with, or 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.880 the state Senate president who's basically been in Jerrymaner District's 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.720 whole life, they've basically repeated all the rhetoric that was 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.280 called out by the voters. Well, this is just the 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:44.760 left wing taking over the Matt Huffman, the Senate President, 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:48.000 said we're going to do it again. So almost none 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:50.280 of the people really in charge of this thing have 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:54.000 learned a lesson in Franklin Rose and you'll recognize this behavior. 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:57.720 He's now in a primary for Senate, so he's tripling 0:10:57.760 --> 0:10:59.600 down on the rhetoric because he wants to grab as 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:02.680 many the Yes voters as he can for his own primary. 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:05.160 So they have to learn the thing. Now, what what 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:07.560 is the side for democracy? Need to learn? We need 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:09.679 to learn that when we when we when we break 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:13.840 bread across all sorts of divides to protect democracy, we 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:16.199 can win. So we need to win. We need to 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:20.320 learn our lesson, even as the other side clearly, stubbornly 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:23.240 in some cases, with a whole lot of whining, failed 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:25.560 to learn their lesson, which is, you go for broth 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:28.360 throughtect democracy in the state of Ohio, You're going to lose. 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:33.040 Do you do you have any sense of Trump deflating 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:40.000 at all in Ohio with normal people, either by fatigue 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:48.760 over the accumulation of criminal accusations, fatigue over the constancy 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:54.040 of the news coverage, or just fatigue over Trump demand. 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:58.480 Anecdotally, I'd say yes. I mean I think he will 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:01.880 win big in the Republican prime. I think his endorsement 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:05.439 in the Senate primary like it did you know, saving 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:07.720 a JD. Vance, who is mired a third or fourth 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:10.120 depending on the day. I think his endorsement in the 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:15.720 Republican primary here probably settles that primary. But more broadly, 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:18.960 I do think I think he's a worse candidate than 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:21.240 he wasn't either sixteen or twenty, believe it or not, 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:24.479 because all he's got now is this set of trials 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.600 and these crazy statements about him being our retribution or 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:30.760 whatever they are. It's not a campaign. I mean, it's 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:34.559 just almost bizarre. So I have had, you know, family friends, 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:41.160 die hard Republicans who my guess is didn't didn't voted 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:43.600 for Trump in sixteen twenty, who now say to me 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.560 things like, I can't even watch him on TV anymore, 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:51.560 it's too much. Now does that mean that Biden wins Ohio? Maybe? 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:54.280 I think it means it could be closer. I think 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.520 it means it could be close enough that Sharon wins 0:12:57.559 --> 0:12:59.640 in a way that Tim Ryan couldn't overcome a twenty 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:03.520 six point deficit. I think the Biden Trump of margin 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:07.000 is close enough that Shared can win this race. I 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.400 think I would greetly probably will be. 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:10.200 So. 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.200 I think that there is some and this is true nationally. 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:17.800 Trump's gotten so sort of far into the bizarreness that 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:21.400 I think some of his appeal in sixteen about forgotten 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:23.400 America as he would put it, and some of his 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.920 appeal in twenty I think now it's really down to 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.319 just such a bizarre sort of feel for that campaign, 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:34.400 the way he talks about it. Everything's backward looking. For example. Yeah, 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:36.280 I think there's some fatigue here, and I've heard people 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:39.080 express it literally as I can't even watch my TV 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:41.760 anymore when he's talking and the person is saying this, 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:44.080 I'm sensing. Voted for him twice. 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:47.359 Do you expect him to be the Republican nominee? 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:50.800 I do, I do. I just one, I think that 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:55.360 he clearly has a lock on the party two except 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.560 for to their credit, Chris Christy and Asa Hutchinson. The 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:02.440 others just yes, let's give pench credit. I think he's 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.680 speaking up someone on January sixth, not enough the rest 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:07.480 of them. You're not going to beat someone who's ahead 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:10.280 of you if you just basically give them cover. And 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:14.040 so the top people against him are all basically saying, yeah, 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.520 all these trials are nothing, but you know, the weaponization 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:19.760 VIAJ like, I just think it's a group of very 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:23.160 weak candidates. I think this Sandus is especially shown from 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.560 the very beginning. Personally, this is not a major league candidate. 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.960 He just example, Yeah, he's a terrible candidate. As a 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:32.760 party chair, you are assessing candidates all the time. This 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:34.960 guy reminds me of the worst candids. He stands in 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:37.640 the back of the room, can't talk to anybody, Just 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.880 not comfortable his own skin, you know. So I just 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:45.480 think that the main candidates are weak already. None of 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.160 them really wants to take him on, and the ones 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:50.160 who are willing to take him on, I'm glad they are, 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:51.880 but I don't think they're really players. So yeah, I 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:55.080 expect him through the worst of it. I just don't 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:58.320 think even the worst situation in terms of the legal 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:01.320 path he's stuck on right now, divert from him winning 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:01.880 the primary. 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.000 I was talking to my friend Matthew Dowd last week, 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:07.680 who's as smart a guy as I've ever met when 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.640 it comes to American politics, and he had a couple 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:14.600 of observations about the Santas and one was basically, can 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:18.960 you believe how bad he is at this? And it's 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:22.440 it's shocking right as a as a national candidate, he's 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:26.200 kind of been, I think, falsely lifted on this kind 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:31.080 of hot air of assumptions by the national media absent 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:35.680 absent any merit. But secondly, what he said was how 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:43.920 disconnected the politics in Florida has become from from national politics. 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:49.160 Because if if he's their guy, and and apparently he 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.040 might be judging by the by the size of the 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:56.840 landslide reelection, Uh, it just doesn't fly in the rest 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:02.280 of America. And and I wonder when you when you 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:07.200 look at the Democratic Party, there's something that's not talked 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:13.400 about enough. In my view seven years on since Trump 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:23.280 came down the escalator, Trump is beating who exactly right? Meaning? 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:30.640 What is wrong with a party that it could conceivably 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:37.560 lose to these people? What is it when you honestly 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:41.760 look at the Democratic Party? And I come at it 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.560 from a perspective as a former Republican who was always 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.960 a moderate in my politics, that both of these parties 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:54.920 are extremely important institutions in the history of the country, 0:16:55.600 --> 0:17:00.160 in world history for the advancement of human free eat 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:06.960 them and democracy. But what is it about the Democratic 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:13.720 Party that it has become so estranged from so many 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:21.440 Americans that this mag of movement is seen as any 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:25.040 type of alternative at all. 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:31.440 No, that's a that's a great question, and it goes 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:33.680 back to something I really focus on in the book 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.720 that you mentioned in this Saving Democracy book. You know, 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:39.200 I think on most of our core issues, we actually 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:42.280 are in step with mainstream America, you know, a middle 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:46.960 class based economics, public education, a woman's right to choose. 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:50.280 But I think in many ways the way we run 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:55.000 doesn't highlight that. Normally, when the question is called on 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:58.520 these issues, like in Kansas, we win, or like in 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:01.840 Ohio last week, we win. But one of my biggest 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:04.159 sort of passions, if you hear me at all, is 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.480 we got to run everywhere, because if we don't run everywhere, 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:11.280 we're not communicating what we're for. We're letting them communicate 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.040 who we are without us actually fighting back. And so 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:16.760 what's happened? And when I say we're not running everywhere, 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:19.639 that we're not even making an effort anywhere. It's fifty 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:21.960 percent of the Tennessee Republicans who voted out those two 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:25.639 justices no opponent the prior November fifty percent of them. 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:30.520 Basically Oklahoma, it's above sixty, Texas and most states it's 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:33.320 in the thirty or forty percentage. And when we're not 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:36.800 in the fight in these areas a, we're not holding 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:40.959 extremism accountable, and their extremism is a loser. We are 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:43.720 seeing it lose all over. We saw it lose with 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:46.720 every election denying sector of state candidate in a swing 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:50.159 state last November, they lost everywhere. We see it lose 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:53.520 again when it's exposed and they're bringing it out more 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:56.159 and more of the Destantus and Trump primary. But if 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.080 we're not in the fight exposing it for what it 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:01.960 is and then saying what we're they're winning. And they're 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:04.200 not only winning, they're defining the term. So I'll say 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:08.560 it in this way. So much I see so much people, 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:12.920 so many people sorry, taking credit for the good things 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:16.040 that the Biden and Democratic bills did around infrastructure and 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:20.000 chips in all these red states. In Ohio, the lieutenant 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.280 governor runs around Ohio and he takes credit for all 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.480 of it. And if you're not running it everywhere, you're 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:27.960 not even there to raise your hands and say, oh, 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:30.439 actually you had nothing to do with this, that was 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:32.960 our side doing it. We're the ones that lifted the 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:36.520 middle class. We're the ones that invested in infrastructure, and 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:38.640 so what do they do when we're not running? They 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:44.040 blame us for problems. They mischaracterized why those problems happen. 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:46.399 You know, the reason that rural schools are suffering a 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.000 lot of states isn't because of some caravan for Mexico, 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.240 It's because the state houses voted to decrease funding for 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.320 those schools. But if you're not running everywhere, they get 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:56.920 to blame it on the people that aren't even in 0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:59.520 the game. And then we also aren't taking credit what 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.879 we're doing. So I think that on core issues like 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:05.600 you go back to and you, I assume agreed with 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:08.080 me that Joe Biden's State of the State of Union 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:12.479 was a masterful speech. Almost everything he talked about, you know, 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:17.160 whether it's economics or social security or whatever, was very 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:19.840 popular and it was a good speech. The reason they 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:21.880 shouted him down was they didn't want people to hear 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:26.240 about unpopular positions they have. But when you're not running everywhere, 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:28.720 you're not able to give that communication where it needs 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:31.119 to be heard, and you end up getting turned upside 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:33.879 down all over. So I think that core messaging and 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:37.520 core positions are actually quite strong. But we're not executing 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:39.359 in a way that we're having. Most people in all 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.480 the places you're talking about here are message and so 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:44.000 I think there's a lot of work to do. And 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:46.520 this is what I go through this book. Build an 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:50.679 infrastructure that values running everywhere, that says we want you 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:53.720 stepping up to run even in tough places. We celebrate 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.159 you as a patriot when you do that. And then 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:59.719 when you're in those places, message on the things that 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:02.200 they are doing badly in those places. And all over 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:04.800 states like Ohio that are corrupt. You mentioned the corruption. 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:09.000 We have massive corruption Ohio, the biggest bribery scandal in history. 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:11.359 The former speaker went to jail a month ago or 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:14.440 two months ago. And every time you see a corrupt state, 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:18.600 you see terrible outcomes. Ohio public schools who rank fifth 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:21.320 of the nation fourteen years ago. Now we're in the 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:25.840 mid twenties. You see small towns collapsing again, not because 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:29.200 of caravans from Mexico, because of their policies and state 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:33.240 houses not working. Run everywhere, and then explain to them 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:36.480 the reason these things are happening is because of their policies, 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:38.399 and we're going to do better, and that's how you 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:41.480 have someone like the new Demo Lora Kelly, the second 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:44.480 term Democratic governor of Kansas. She ran on issues like 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:46.760 that and won. So I think it all starts with 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:51.160 a different mindset. Be a national party, run everywhere, hold 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:55.240 extremists accountable everywhere, and run hard on issues that frustrate 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:58.679 everyday people that often are not doing well because of 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:01.800 the policies coming out of these these rig state houses. 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:09.440 Do you view the extremism and the corruption as deeply linked? 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:15.720 Absolutely all, It's all once you have a I have 0:22:15.800 --> 0:22:18.320 these little sort of charts I go through in my book. 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:23.520 Basically they're the two interests who love jerrymandered state houses 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:27.960 are the extremists national and not just in state. National 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:31.919 extremists who know that their worldview would lose every time 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:35.600 in a fair democracy. They know Kansas would be their 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:39.159 future forever, or Ohio this last week. If you have 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:41.840 a straight up vote on abortion bands, no exceptions that 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:44.800 send rape victims to other states, they will lose every time. 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:46.639 They know it, so they want to They want a 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:49.600 jerry managed state house. But who also wants a jerrymandered 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:53.480 state house? The special interests? Because often what do these 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:56.280 special interests want they want a piece of the public pie. 0:22:56.960 --> 0:23:01.320 When they get the public pie, public outcomes sintegrade, take 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:04.560 public school money, give it to for profit scams like 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:06.800 they did in Ohio. They were called doing so the 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:12.720 public schools decline. So extremism and corruption are literally the 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:18.040 outgrowths and ultimately the drivers of gerrymandering, because in a 0:23:18.080 --> 0:23:22.520 fair democracy, the corruption wouldn't work, the poor outcomes would 0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:26.080 lead to accountability for the politicians creating those outcomes. Once 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:30.159 you gerrymander, they know that they can have terrible schools 0:23:30.200 --> 0:23:33.600 and worse health outcomes and no infrastructure and still get 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:36.440 re elected, just like they know they can pass things 0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:39.080 like abortion bands no exception of rape princess and get 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:43.040 re elected. So both extremism and the corruption are sort 0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:45.920 of tied to the hip with these with these broken 0:23:45.960 --> 0:23:48.560 state houses. And that's why we see what we see 0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:53.520 in Ohio, a downward spiral of both corruption and extremism. 0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:57.120 And the smart ones know they could you know, think 0:23:57.160 --> 0:23:59.040 of and you again, you've done this longer than I have. 0:23:59.640 --> 0:24:03.719 If you you're a politician, and you have dedicated your 0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:07.439 career to a path of extremism, out of touch with 0:24:07.480 --> 0:24:11.720 your voters, and corruption for which you could be held accountable. 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:15.640 You have all these screwed up incentives, as in one being, 0:24:15.840 --> 0:24:19.080 keep attacking democracy, because if you ever allowed a fair 0:24:19.119 --> 0:24:22.159 democracy back into your system, back in your district, you 0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:24.840 know that the candidate would beat you by pointing out 0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:27.439 how extreme you are and how corrupt you are. So 0:24:27.640 --> 0:24:31.400 once they're on this course of extremism and corruption, they 0:24:31.480 --> 0:24:35.120 really have this intense incentive to keep gerrymannering. And that's 0:24:35.160 --> 0:24:37.520 why you see these states. People think it can never 0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:41.000 get worse. They can't keep suppressing. They keep gerrymannering. They 0:24:41.040 --> 0:24:44.159 know they have to because they would never survive at 0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:47.720 a fair democracy with records as extreme and as honestly 0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:50.040 corrupt as many of the records are. 0:24:50.080 --> 0:24:52.480 There's a couple of things I want to talk to 0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:59.240 you about, but let me start here. The Trump mag 0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:04.920 of faction in this country. What number do you put 0:25:04.960 --> 0:25:05.280 it at? 0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:09.240 I mean, my sense is it always shows up in 0:25:09.280 --> 0:25:10.720 the some level. 0:25:10.440 --> 0:25:14.919 In the thirties, right, I'll stipulate to thirty five percent. 0:25:15.080 --> 0:25:15.800 Yeah, that's what I mean. 0:25:16.440 --> 0:25:18.760 And I'll and I'll say thirty five percent of the 0:25:18.800 --> 0:25:22.720 country is into this, wants it, likes it, you know, 0:25:22.920 --> 0:25:27.919 President President for life. Now. The danger for the rest 0:25:27.960 --> 0:25:34.800 of us how that group takes power is them plus 0:25:35.920 --> 0:25:42.359 enough apathy to have a temporary majority where they take 0:25:42.560 --> 0:25:47.320 power and are able to structurally do things from the 0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:55.320 system that make the practice of democracy very, very difficult 0:25:57.600 --> 0:26:01.040 when when you think about how to beat them. I'm 0:26:01.160 --> 0:26:04.800 very concerned right now about something that I see playing out, 0:26:05.080 --> 0:26:10.280 and I wonder what your reaction to it is. First, 0:26:10.880 --> 0:26:17.840 the No Labels organization is not getting as much coverage 0:26:17.920 --> 0:26:22.800 I think as it deserves to get. But secondarily, if 0:26:22.840 --> 0:26:27.000 they are on the level, and that's an if, and 0:26:27.000 --> 0:26:30.000 and by on the level, I mean if they have 0:26:30.080 --> 0:26:34.920 the resources to secure BALLID access, which is a as 0:26:34.960 --> 0:26:38.600 you know, will will be in all fifty states, a 0:26:39.440 --> 0:26:43.080 cost that is that is upwards of one hundred million 0:26:43.160 --> 0:26:46.959 dollars in cash. But but they say they can do it, 0:26:47.720 --> 0:26:49.879 they say they're raising the money to do it. So 0:26:49.960 --> 0:26:52.879 I presume that they can do it, right, that they 0:26:53.200 --> 0:26:55.560 that they're not saying that to go out and fall 0:26:55.600 --> 0:27:00.680 flat on their faces. If they do do it, the 0:27:00.720 --> 0:27:07.920 Democratic Party, the Biden White House doesn't get a vote 0:27:08.200 --> 0:27:12.000 on whether they do it or not. They're in a game. 0:27:12.160 --> 0:27:18.639 Then that's essentially a three way race, and a three 0:27:18.720 --> 0:27:25.560 way race changes the dynamics of the race. One of 0:27:25.600 --> 0:27:29.680 the ways it changes the dynamics is it breaks the 0:27:29.720 --> 0:27:36.280 seventeen state monopoly where presidential races are decided, and it 0:27:36.440 --> 0:27:42.080 expands the field to at least thirty five forty states, 0:27:42.840 --> 0:27:47.960 bringing down the winning threshold right to the high thirties, 0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:54.879 which is a number within reach of Trump's hardcore base. 0:27:56.119 --> 0:28:04.280 So my first question, how concerned are you when you 0:28:04.359 --> 0:28:10.720 hear Washington democrats talk about the race to come talk 0:28:10.800 --> 0:28:17.159 about it in terms that discount the possibility that, in fact, 0:28:17.240 --> 0:28:22.480 the race that's coming doesn't look anything like the race 0:28:22.520 --> 0:28:23.520 they're talking about. 0:28:25.880 --> 0:28:30.159 I mean, I'm concerned partly because of no labels, and 0:28:30.240 --> 0:28:34.680 partly more broadly that when we basically only go into 0:28:34.720 --> 0:28:37.880 the states that we think matter in the current conception 0:28:38.000 --> 0:28:40.560 of swing states, we give up so much of the 0:28:40.560 --> 0:28:43.520 battlefield of democracy to the other side. So I am 0:28:43.560 --> 0:28:47.080 actually concerned before we even bring them into the conversation. 0:28:47.760 --> 0:28:50.360 I think that the other side is basically their front 0:28:50.440 --> 0:28:54.520 line of attacking democracy and advancing extremism are the very 0:28:54.560 --> 0:28:57.720 states where we largely aren't there, And because we're not there, 0:28:57.720 --> 0:28:59.400 we make it easy for them, So I think we 0:28:59.480 --> 0:29:03.480 already need to have a much broader strategy. Democracy itself 0:29:03.600 --> 0:29:06.960 is what's at stake right now. If they're using state 0:29:07.040 --> 0:29:10.440 houses to make most of their progress, which they are, 0:29:10.760 --> 0:29:13.480 we should be there anyway. But to your point, yeah, 0:29:13.520 --> 0:29:16.600 the no labels adds a whole new and dangerous wrinkle. 0:29:16.720 --> 0:29:18.840 And I go back. I don't want to claim to 0:29:18.840 --> 0:29:22.720 be a history professor, but there's so much parallel in 0:29:22.760 --> 0:29:25.560 our history to what we're dealing with right now. And 0:29:25.640 --> 0:29:29.440 the biggest parallel with what you're describing is there was 0:29:29.480 --> 0:29:33.920 a pretty serious faction for a number of years against 0:29:34.040 --> 0:29:38.240 allowing white supremacy to retake back over the South. But 0:29:38.320 --> 0:29:41.480 those white supremacists were dedicated, and I don't know what 0:29:41.560 --> 0:29:43.440 the number was, but they were a big number in 0:29:43.480 --> 0:29:47.360 the South. And the reason they end up succeeding is 0:29:47.400 --> 0:29:51.200 they never gave up their unity, and at some point 0:29:51.440 --> 0:29:55.120 the folks that were dedicated to stopping them, like Ulysses Grant, 0:29:55.120 --> 0:29:57.240 who grew up not far from here, are very proud 0:29:57.280 --> 0:30:00.800 of what his work was. Was they divided over other issues, 0:30:01.440 --> 0:30:04.680 and once they allowed their divisions on economic issues and 0:30:04.720 --> 0:30:07.360 other things to divide up what was a majority that 0:30:07.400 --> 0:30:10.200 had been standing up to white supremacy. Once they allowed 0:30:10.240 --> 0:30:13.400 themselves to divide, then the white supremacist in the South 0:30:13.720 --> 0:30:15.480 one and all of a sudden, we had Jim Crow 0:30:15.520 --> 0:30:17.720 for a century, and the same thing could happen here. 0:30:17.960 --> 0:30:22.200 It's mid thirties. It's mid thirties. And if we allow 0:30:22.800 --> 0:30:26.520 the you know, the fifties and sixties that don't agree 0:30:26.560 --> 0:30:28.960 with this guy to divide up in the way that 0:30:29.000 --> 0:30:31.000 you're talking about, in the way that another candidate might 0:30:31.040 --> 0:30:34.240 divide up, we give away a majority that otherwise would prevail. 0:30:34.320 --> 0:30:37.080 And in the history of our country, is you let 0:30:37.160 --> 0:30:39.360 that happen the wrong time and you could be living 0:30:39.360 --> 0:30:41.760 with its consequences for generations. 0:30:42.280 --> 0:30:46.360 I wrote about an Ohio man last week, James Garfield, 0:30:46.920 --> 0:30:52.880 who is not well remembered by the country. But when 0:30:52.920 --> 0:30:57.360 you look at American history, this period of time that 0:30:57.440 --> 0:31:02.840 you just refer to was profoundly shaded by two murders, 0:31:02.880 --> 0:31:08.440 two assassinations. So Abraham Lincoln in eighteen sixty five, and 0:31:08.480 --> 0:31:13.000 we talk about Lincoln as America's greatest country is excuse me, 0:31:13.000 --> 0:31:17.200 as America's greatest president. But we forget and don't talk 0:31:17.240 --> 0:31:20.640 a lot about the fact that he was preceded by 0:31:20.680 --> 0:31:24.240 the man who before Trump was the worst president in 0:31:24.280 --> 0:31:28.920 American history, who's now the second worst because of Trump. 0:31:29.040 --> 0:31:31.360 And he was followed by the man who was the 0:31:31.440 --> 0:31:36.120 second worst, who's now the third worst, Andrew Johnson. So 0:31:36.200 --> 0:31:40.560 you come to eighteen eighty in Garfield, who only makes 0:31:40.600 --> 0:31:43.840 it two hundred days in office before he shot at combat. 0:31:43.960 --> 0:31:49.680 Veteran of the Civil War, committed to civil rights, committed 0:31:49.720 --> 0:31:55.200 to the protection of Black American civil liberties in the South, 0:31:55.320 --> 0:32:00.360 his murder sets back civil rights really in this treat 0:32:01.160 --> 0:32:05.040 as you suggested, for one hundred years. And the fact 0:32:05.080 --> 0:32:12.200 of the matter is that a devastating defeat, an absolute 0:32:12.280 --> 0:32:18.400 defeat in Civil War a few decades later has twisted 0:32:18.520 --> 0:32:23.000 into the lost myth that there was righteousness in the 0:32:23.080 --> 0:32:28.000 Southern cause, and that myth persists today, and it has 0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:34.920 not been dealt with in this country by our American 0:32:35.040 --> 0:32:38.800 society yet. But I want to ask you a political 0:32:38.920 --> 0:32:43.680 question that steeped in in what we just talked about. 0:32:44.680 --> 0:32:51.920 This minority, this thirty five percent, that through deed, through action, 0:32:52.240 --> 0:32:58.680 through result is hostile to the concepts of American democracy, 0:33:00.080 --> 0:33:05.120 which require both sides to recognize you may lose the election, 0:33:05.840 --> 0:33:09.160 and you'll have to try again next time. To the 0:33:09.240 --> 0:33:17.320 concepts of pluralism, equal rights, the ethos of much of 0:33:17.360 --> 0:33:21.200 the media. A lot of the opposition in this era 0:33:22.560 --> 0:33:27.959 has been to seek understanding of these people. Why do 0:33:28.000 --> 0:33:32.560 they feel the way that they feel, Why are they 0:33:32.640 --> 0:33:38.520 aggrieved the way that they are, Why are they angry 0:33:38.560 --> 0:33:44.040 the way they are. I've never been interested in it, 0:33:44.320 --> 0:33:47.840 just like I've never been interested at all in why 0:33:47.880 --> 0:33:53.040 Trump says the things he says around why he says it. 0:33:53.960 --> 0:33:59.440 I just take everything he says literally and seriously, because 0:33:59.480 --> 0:34:01.520 at the end of the day, there were people who 0:34:01.840 --> 0:34:06.520 followed him around carrying suitcases with the nuclear weapons codes. 0:34:07.960 --> 0:34:11.920 I just know that that thirty five percent that no 0:34:12.160 --> 0:34:16.120 matter what the act of corruption is, what the act 0:34:16.160 --> 0:34:20.160 of depravity is, what the vandalism towards the country is, 0:34:20.640 --> 0:34:24.279 what the assault on our democracy is, they will be 0:34:24.520 --> 0:34:29.520 with him Trump over country one hundred percent of the 0:34:29.640 --> 0:34:36.680 time and seven years and there's no place to compromise politically. 0:34:37.960 --> 0:34:43.839 A minority faction is going to bring the majority to submission, 0:34:45.680 --> 0:34:51.360 or the majority in this country who believes in America 0:34:51.600 --> 0:34:59.440 and American ideals is going to snuff out peacefully and 0:34:59.520 --> 0:35:06.399 at the ballot box. This minority faction and time is 0:35:06.440 --> 0:35:09.840 not on the side of the majority any longer. Seven 0:35:09.920 --> 0:35:12.680 years in what's your what's your reaction to that? 0:35:13.280 --> 0:35:17.480 I generally agree. I mean both books I've written are 0:35:17.520 --> 0:35:21.560 literally about that. They're I hate to make it even 0:35:21.600 --> 0:35:24.000 worse for a second, but I do think this goes 0:35:24.120 --> 0:35:26.960 beyond Trump. I mean this a lot of the work 0:35:27.040 --> 0:35:30.200 to the lock in minority rules started before Trump ran. 0:35:30.880 --> 0:35:33.600 It started after Obama won, and it's part of a 0:35:33.600 --> 0:35:39.240 long history of some people being really you know, threatened 0:35:39.239 --> 0:35:42.439 by a diverse majority getting its way. And that's why 0:35:42.640 --> 0:35:46.560 some of the worst beginning precursors of this began in 0:35:46.640 --> 0:35:49.719 eleven with jerry mandering and with certain types of voter 0:35:49.760 --> 0:35:53.600 suppression directly aimed at the Obama coalition. And it's been 0:35:53.640 --> 0:35:56.319 in place, it's been working all this time, and it 0:35:56.360 --> 0:36:00.280 began before Trump ran. He's made it worse. He's fuel 0:36:00.360 --> 0:36:02.120 and he's brought up the worst of some people. But 0:36:02.200 --> 0:36:04.600 I will say some of the things they are trying 0:36:04.640 --> 0:36:07.280 to do, like issue one, if Trump were locked up tomorrow, 0:36:07.320 --> 0:36:10.000 they'd still try and do it. So he is a threat, 0:36:10.080 --> 0:36:12.000 and if he wins, we know how it would be 0:36:12.040 --> 0:36:15.480 worse than ever. But we also have to deal with 0:36:15.680 --> 0:36:18.400 there's a deeper effort here that it's at the state 0:36:18.520 --> 0:36:22.560 level that already was working to lock in minority rule 0:36:22.640 --> 0:36:29.240 through taking through certain instruments of government, including state houses, jerrymandering, courts, 0:36:29.320 --> 0:36:32.040 et cetera. And so and the reason I mean I 0:36:32.120 --> 0:36:34.879 had no plan I stepped aside in his party chair 0:36:34.920 --> 0:36:39.160 in December of twenty I had no plans to write 0:36:39.160 --> 0:36:42.439 any books at all. But in about April twenty one, 0:36:42.560 --> 0:36:44.880 I had your same alarm bells in my head, like, 0:36:45.160 --> 0:36:48.399 my god, we're not seeing this threat. They are going 0:36:48.440 --> 0:36:52.160 after democracy itself, and we are still living as if 0:36:52.200 --> 0:36:54.719 they're not. We still are assuming that they're going to 0:36:54.760 --> 0:36:56.960 play by the same rules as we are, that they're 0:36:57.000 --> 0:36:59.360 not willing to break the law, which they are clearly 0:36:59.400 --> 0:37:01.959 willing to do. And so I literally wrote the first 0:37:01.960 --> 0:37:05.480 book in a matter of months, almost as alarm bells. 0:37:06.000 --> 0:37:08.520 See the battle for what it is. It's not some 0:37:08.719 --> 0:37:12.440 sort of clean little battle for a few federal swing stakes. 0:37:12.800 --> 0:37:15.879 This is an all out battle for democracy itself. It's 0:37:15.920 --> 0:37:18.440 been the same battle we've been in for centuries. Those 0:37:18.440 --> 0:37:20.880 are the stakes, and if you're gonna win that battle. 0:37:21.200 --> 0:37:24.200 You gotta fight it very differently than the short sort 0:37:24.200 --> 0:37:28.320 of cycle mindset of federal battles. So I've been alarmed 0:37:28.320 --> 0:37:31.000 about it. I've tried to get the word outse best 0:37:31.000 --> 0:37:33.400 I can. And once you see though that it's a 0:37:33.440 --> 0:37:36.719 long battle for democracy, you also can start to see 0:37:36.719 --> 0:37:39.759 though how to win it. One to realize it is 0:37:39.800 --> 0:37:43.080 a long battle. It's not some short cycle battle. Two, 0:37:43.560 --> 0:37:46.320 it's a battle you got to take everywhere the front 0:37:46.360 --> 0:37:49.480 line is in these states. So go start contesting in 0:37:49.520 --> 0:37:52.520 these states. Start this is how Tim Ryan ran his campaign. Way, 0:37:52.840 --> 0:37:55.399 Start campaigning in the parts of the states that we've 0:37:55.400 --> 0:37:59.239 even been in too long. Start using far more of 0:37:59.239 --> 0:38:02.160 your footprint in life. Don't just give a little money, 0:38:02.239 --> 0:38:04.399 don't just do a little volunteering a few months to go. 0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:07.160 This is a as you fight it, as Steve Bannon 0:38:07.200 --> 0:38:09.480 fights on the other side. They don't quit in December. 0:38:09.920 --> 0:38:12.439 They're not quitting after last week. You got to fight 0:38:12.480 --> 0:38:14.960 it all the time. You got to use everything you 0:38:15.160 --> 0:38:18.480 have in your network, in your life to lift the battle, 0:38:18.680 --> 0:38:22.520 to lift democracy. And then, of course we have to 0:38:22.520 --> 0:38:25.160 focus on Trump. But you also have to start to 0:38:25.200 --> 0:38:29.040 see and this is something we haven't seen it goes 0:38:29.080 --> 0:38:33.160 beyond Trump. When Biden won in November of twenty and 0:38:33.200 --> 0:38:37.439 beat Trump, but then Republicans down the ballot still won 0:38:37.480 --> 0:38:40.120 the Arizona State House and all those other state houses. 0:38:40.520 --> 0:38:44.160 Those Republicans within months were attacked, as we saw, We're 0:38:44.200 --> 0:38:49.239 attacking democracy through phony audits, more jerrymannering, depriving voters of 0:38:49.280 --> 0:38:52.480 water at poles. So don't just have the contrast be 0:38:52.920 --> 0:38:56.520 Let's have Biden beat Trump run the extremism that we 0:38:56.640 --> 0:39:00.680 now know. Therefore, after Dobbs especially, make that trest clear 0:39:00.800 --> 0:39:04.319 through every state house race. So I'm alarmed. Like you, 0:39:04.560 --> 0:39:07.280 I feel good about a winning streak once the people 0:39:07.320 --> 0:39:10.120 care about democracy start to see the battle as a 0:39:10.160 --> 0:39:14.160 state as a state level battle. We've won Kansas, we 0:39:14.239 --> 0:39:17.120 won the Wisconsin Supreme Court race, we won in Ohio, 0:39:17.520 --> 0:39:20.880 and that shows you the potential of the pro democracy 0:39:20.960 --> 0:39:25.399 majority when it's energized and when it sees a risk 0:39:25.440 --> 0:39:27.920 to democracy right in front of it. We have to 0:39:28.000 --> 0:39:30.479 wage that battle and make it clear that that's what's 0:39:30.520 --> 0:39:32.680 on in twenty four this November, by the way, in 0:39:32.760 --> 0:39:36.600 Virginia as well. And that's why right now, recruit everywhere, 0:39:36.960 --> 0:39:40.120 get candidates on these ballots at all levels everywhere, and 0:39:40.320 --> 0:39:43.839 gear up, not in mid twenty four, for November twenty four, 0:39:44.200 --> 0:39:46.360 start gearing up. Now. If we do all that, I 0:39:46.360 --> 0:39:48.839 think we can win. But if we don't do that, 0:39:48.880 --> 0:39:51.400 as you're saying, yeah, we are literally the make or 0:39:51.480 --> 0:39:54.600 break moment for democracy that we and these little kids 0:39:54.600 --> 0:39:56.960 behind me these photos, they'll spend the rest of their 0:39:57.000 --> 0:40:00.120 lives digging out from it if we don't succeed the 0:40:00.200 --> 0:40:03.840 next couple of years with a real pro democracy strategy 0:40:04.160 --> 0:40:06.440 and not just to win a few swing state strategy. 0:40:07.239 --> 0:40:10.239 So, uh so, let me ask you, Let me ask 0:40:10.280 --> 0:40:12.920 you a question about that, because there's a there's a 0:40:13.040 --> 0:40:18.160 there's a threshold issue in in American politics right now, 0:40:18.360 --> 0:40:22.040 so far as it concerns Donald Trump, right, so what 0:40:22.160 --> 0:40:26.759 with the American people the body politic and just take 0:40:26.840 --> 0:40:31.680 a side party labels writ large, the country does not 0:40:32.080 --> 0:40:35.080 want the Trump Biden rematch. 0:40:35.440 --> 0:40:39.240 Do you agree with that? I mean, I think polling 0:40:39.320 --> 0:40:42.200 would would suggest that. Yeah. 0:40:42.520 --> 0:40:48.200 Now, the Democratic Party nationally right is going to deliver 0:40:48.440 --> 0:40:53.360 on their side of the equation in terms of giving 0:40:53.400 --> 0:40:57.440 to the American people a candidate they don't want to 0:40:57.560 --> 0:41:03.319 run against, to run against Trump Biden Trump. Now, I'm 0:41:03.360 --> 0:41:08.880 gonna say the one thing that drives me more nuts 0:41:09.560 --> 0:41:13.759 that anything that's said by any national Democrat is this. 0:41:14.680 --> 0:41:19.000 And it's the idea that they want Trump in the 0:41:19.120 --> 0:41:25.600 general election because he's an easy candidate for Biden to be. 0:41:26.960 --> 0:41:31.720 So there's a duality around Trump, right, And there's Trump 0:41:32.840 --> 0:41:38.600 the threat, and I think he is a threat. I 0:41:38.600 --> 0:41:42.160 think he is a threat to the continuity of the 0:41:42.200 --> 0:41:47.480 American Republic. And then there is Trump the prop the 0:41:47.520 --> 0:41:53.520 boogeyman Voldemort. Put Trump's name into the email, you raise money, 0:41:54.200 --> 0:41:58.800 Put Trump into the ad, you get ratings. Put Trump 0:41:58.840 --> 0:42:03.399 into the newscast. Right, at least he used to right 0:42:03.520 --> 0:42:06.960 the numbers, The numbers go up. And so I don't 0:42:07.000 --> 0:42:11.920 want to see Trump come forward right into a general 0:42:12.000 --> 0:42:16.480 election because I don't think there's a more irresponsible position 0:42:16.600 --> 0:42:21.840 in America or a more delusional one, which is the 0:42:21.920 --> 0:42:26.920 idea that he can't win a general election again, because 0:42:26.960 --> 0:42:31.920 he absolutely can win a general election again. Any any 0:42:32.000 --> 0:42:35.120 do you take any issues with anything, with anything else? 0:42:35.800 --> 0:42:39.440 When I say that he knows he's obviously incredibly dangerous, 0:42:39.880 --> 0:42:43.719 I think these things are very unpredictable. When I say 0:42:43.719 --> 0:42:45.799 that I think he's going to be the candidate. It's 0:42:45.800 --> 0:42:48.080 not because I necessarily want that. I just think that 0:42:48.760 --> 0:42:52.560 he will, and I don't know, I don't understand that. 0:42:52.880 --> 0:42:54.839 And I'm with you, you no, I agree. I mean, you 0:42:54.880 --> 0:42:59.160 don't want this man, well, only one ballot away from 0:42:59.160 --> 0:43:03.279 being president. And that's a highly risky proposition that I 0:43:03.320 --> 0:43:04.680 think we're all going to be dealing with. 0:43:07.080 --> 0:43:13.399 I think I think that fifty years from now, there's 0:43:13.440 --> 0:43:16.880 gonna be all sorts of infrastructure in this country, and 0:43:16.920 --> 0:43:21.719 you're gonna look back like we did growing up at 0:43:21.800 --> 0:43:25.200 things that were built during the depression years. When was 0:43:25.239 --> 0:43:27.799 that built? I was built in the nineteen thirties, it 0:43:27.840 --> 0:43:31.440 was built in the nineteen fifties. You, Joe Biden is 0:43:31.520 --> 0:43:38.320 the infrastructure president and then some that people have dreamed 0:43:38.360 --> 0:43:41.759 about for a couple of decades, and his and his 0:43:41.880 --> 0:43:46.840 legacy on that front puts him, in my view, on 0:43:47.040 --> 0:43:53.600 the same plane as Eisenhower. I think that he is 0:43:53.719 --> 0:43:59.759 the most effective foreign policy president coming out of a 0:43:59.760 --> 0:44:05.759 big ditch since George Herbert Walker Bush. If you look 0:44:05.800 --> 0:44:11.080 at the end of the Cold War, the First Gulf War, 0:44:12.239 --> 0:44:15.719 extremely successful. But I'm gonna I'm gonna challenge you on 0:44:15.840 --> 0:44:20.040 a a Biden proposition, and and give you a chance 0:44:20.120 --> 0:44:25.680 to make the make the Biden case. Respond to this argument, 0:44:26.560 --> 0:44:31.680 which is, none of that matters, not a thing. He 0:44:31.880 --> 0:44:38.040 was elected to do one thing, break the extremest threat 0:44:39.120 --> 0:44:45.120 to the country and it's still here. Didn't get the 0:44:45.200 --> 0:44:53.200 job done. Therefore, maybe it's time for Gavin Newsom, Maybe 0:44:53.239 --> 0:44:57.680 it's time for Gretchen Whimer, because at the end of 0:44:57.719 --> 0:45:08.320 the day, the defense of democracy has not succeeded thus 0:45:08.360 --> 0:45:17.960 far against this maga threat somebody and somebody, and it's 0:45:18.000 --> 0:45:22.239 the top guy in the world we used to live 0:45:22.280 --> 0:45:26.239 in is the guy that gets to blame for that. 0:45:28.000 --> 0:45:31.640 Not that he's a criminal, not that he's a bad person, 0:45:32.960 --> 0:45:37.640 but that he fell short. And in fact, this is 0:45:37.640 --> 0:45:40.640 someone who has fallen short doing that while doing all 0:45:40.680 --> 0:45:44.719 of these other great things. But it doesn't mitigate that 0:45:44.840 --> 0:45:50.840 on this thing, the threat in fact may be worse. 0:45:53.600 --> 0:45:56.560 Let me respond. There have been moments I've been frustrated 0:45:56.680 --> 0:45:59.879 about the intensity of the battle for democracy, I think 0:46:00.080 --> 0:46:01.879 early on, when I don't think I don't think there 0:46:01.920 --> 0:46:06.040 was enough attention to it or sensitivity to it. But 0:46:06.400 --> 0:46:10.560 my bigger response out of this, aside from moments of frustration, 0:46:10.719 --> 0:46:15.000 is This is not a conventional political battle. This is 0:46:15.040 --> 0:46:18.680 a long, much longer term battle. And I don't think 0:46:18.680 --> 0:46:21.960 it is the kind of battle you win immediately or 0:46:22.000 --> 0:46:25.440 even in one term. This is long, is the this 0:46:25.520 --> 0:46:28.640 is the arc of our country. And so I would say, 0:46:28.719 --> 0:46:30.839 you know, again, I'm not here to represent Joe Biden, 0:46:30.840 --> 0:46:34.239 but I would say that that he did articulate late 0:46:34.320 --> 0:46:37.920 in November, late in twenty two the threat, and we 0:46:38.000 --> 0:46:41.000 started to see some countercyclical results in terms of some 0:46:41.080 --> 0:46:43.920 of the underpinnings of why we've been losing democracy when 0:46:43.960 --> 0:46:46.360 we elected those when we did it, defeat at every election, 0:46:46.440 --> 0:46:49.120 Denial running for secuar state that in a normal off 0:46:49.200 --> 0:46:51.719 year quote unquote off year midterm, we would have lost 0:46:51.760 --> 0:46:55.200 those races. But that extremism was exposed. We picked up 0:46:55.200 --> 0:46:59.080 the Pennsylvania State House, what it was it double digit seats. 0:46:59.080 --> 0:47:01.880 We picked up the midtermer we're supposed to lose. We 0:47:01.960 --> 0:47:06.440 pipped up the Michigan State Senate, state House. So we've 0:47:06.520 --> 0:47:09.799 won these these special elections. Again, normally you wouldn't win 0:47:09.840 --> 0:47:12.360 these when we had the White House. So in the 0:47:12.400 --> 0:47:16.280 long arc, in the battle for democracy, Trump it remains 0:47:16.280 --> 0:47:18.160 the threat that he is. We have to defeat him 0:47:18.280 --> 0:47:21.080 next November. But what I liked it, we're starting to see, 0:47:21.280 --> 0:47:24.479 and I'm an optimist in the end, despite the dark 0:47:24.560 --> 0:47:27.200 topics of my book, which is the democracies under attack 0:47:27.239 --> 0:47:30.400 of a threat, we're starting to see some pick up 0:47:31.040 --> 0:47:34.960 in the awareness of how we protect democracy. We're starting 0:47:34.960 --> 0:47:37.360 to gain some wins like we didn't know how last week, 0:47:37.960 --> 0:47:40.520 and in the long arc. I'm feeling a little better 0:47:40.560 --> 0:47:42.879 than I was two years ago, because two years ago 0:47:43.080 --> 0:47:46.880 we didn't even see these things as a matter. But 0:47:47.640 --> 0:47:50.279 I think that there are there some voters who are 0:47:50.360 --> 0:47:52.560 thinking what you did, which is I thought voting right 0:47:52.560 --> 0:47:55.640 should be more protected over the next Over the last 0:47:55.640 --> 0:47:58.440 four years, I thought Jerry man Ering might see an 0:47:58.560 --> 0:48:01.680 end that it hasn't. I'm sure there's some frustration, but 0:48:01.719 --> 0:48:04.880 I also would say the battle for democracy is a 0:48:04.920 --> 0:48:08.160 longer term battle. And I think, as you said, in 0:48:08.239 --> 0:48:11.480 fifty years from now, In fifty years from now, we'll 0:48:11.520 --> 0:48:15.120 be able to see where the years twenty one, twenty two, 0:48:15.280 --> 0:48:19.160 twenty three, and twenty four together, the moment where people 0:48:19.920 --> 0:48:24.520 saw Trump saw the state level attack and geared up 0:48:24.560 --> 0:48:26.960 in a way that defeated over the coming years, that 0:48:27.120 --> 0:48:30.720 followed this moment a wariness were not. I think it's 0:48:30.960 --> 0:48:33.120 a little soon to say, well, someone had a couple 0:48:33.080 --> 0:48:35.200 of years to solve it and didn't. I just don't 0:48:35.200 --> 0:48:39.640 think the broader battle for democracy is determined on that timeframe, 0:48:39.680 --> 0:48:43.520 even though, as we're both saying, we're it's sort of 0:48:44.000 --> 0:48:46.960 the inflection point of that battle right now through the 0:48:46.960 --> 0:48:48.120 next couple of years. 0:48:48.480 --> 0:48:54.560 Here's the thing that I fundamentally feel disoriented about and 0:48:54.640 --> 0:48:58.120 I can't get a handle on. And it's how much 0:48:58.200 --> 0:49:05.280 of this is all completely illusory? Oz behind the curtain, 0:49:06.239 --> 0:49:10.359 and let me let me ask the get into it 0:49:10.520 --> 0:49:13.480 this way. I'm looking at your kids behind you. I 0:49:13.520 --> 0:49:17.000 am a I'm a girl dad. And I took my 0:49:17.160 --> 0:49:22.520 ten year old to the Tailor Swift concert and talking 0:49:22.560 --> 0:49:26.200 about it afterwards, and so I saw it in Los Angeles. 0:49:26.239 --> 0:49:30.160 Must have been ninety thousand people sold it out six 0:49:30.320 --> 0:49:34.080 nights in a row. And I said to my wife, 0:49:34.200 --> 0:49:39.359 I have never been anywhere with that many women in 0:49:39.400 --> 0:49:46.120 my life, not even close. Easy kind of guess ninety 0:49:46.200 --> 0:49:53.520 percent of the crowd female little girls wearing their friendship 0:49:53.560 --> 0:49:58.040 bracelets right, women in their thirties and their twenties. People 0:49:58.120 --> 0:50:01.520 are handing out their French A bracelets to each other. 0:50:02.480 --> 0:50:06.160 Now I have a good sense of how the media 0:50:06.280 --> 0:50:11.520 covers Trump and the ubiquity with which they cover him, 0:50:12.840 --> 0:50:18.800 and the attention that the Trump rally gets, as crazy 0:50:18.840 --> 0:50:23.520 as they are, as small as they've become. Now, I 0:50:23.600 --> 0:50:31.800 suspect if Donald Trump was selling out stadiums with eighty 0:50:31.880 --> 0:50:37.600 five ninety thousand people all over America going full maga, like, 0:50:37.760 --> 0:50:41.600 our level of being freaked out about that would be 0:50:41.680 --> 0:50:46.680 incredibly high. Now he's covered like he does do that, 0:50:47.760 --> 0:50:52.280 when in fact his world has become pretty small, right 0:50:52.680 --> 0:50:55.319 and in terms of the places he goes in the 0:50:55.400 --> 0:51:03.919 crowds he attracts. In essence, certainly, the media doesn't cover 0:51:04.000 --> 0:51:07.520 the world through the prism of the ninety thousand a 0:51:07.560 --> 0:51:12.640 person nightly gathering. We're the friendship bracelets are being handed out. 0:51:12.920 --> 0:51:21.680 They're both real, they're both happening. Violence isn't breaking out 0:51:21.920 --> 0:51:27.080 all around us everywhere all the time in America. Normal 0:51:27.280 --> 0:51:33.720 people don't and never have like having politics in their face. 0:51:35.120 --> 0:51:42.080 Twenty four seven, and all of the experts and all 0:51:42.120 --> 0:51:47.480 of the pollsters have basically been wrong for seven years. 0:51:49.040 --> 0:51:53.919 Everything that you're saying anecdotally, well when you look out 0:51:53.960 --> 0:52:01.320 in the country when the test comes at this quiet result, 0:52:01.880 --> 0:52:07.680 and over and over and over again, Americans are saying no. 0:52:08.920 --> 0:52:15.000 And to me, what you can never know, because we're 0:52:15.040 --> 0:52:20.840 fifty two. What was the sense of urgency to danger 0:52:21.200 --> 0:52:25.200 in nineteen thirty nine, in nineteen thirty eight, What did 0:52:25.200 --> 0:52:29.359 it feel like the people who were urgently alarmed who 0:52:29.440 --> 0:52:34.520 turned out to be correct? What did the zeitgeist in 0:52:34.600 --> 0:52:38.279 the culture feel like? And you just can't know, You 0:52:38.360 --> 0:52:40.960 really can't get a handle on it. Say for the 0:52:41.040 --> 0:52:47.080 fact that you know that in democracies, people rally towards 0:52:47.200 --> 0:52:54.439 facing danger very very late. They move late, but when 0:52:54.440 --> 0:52:59.359 they face it, historically, at least in this country, they've 0:52:59.400 --> 0:53:03.680 done so very very very decisively. And so I wonder 0:53:03.719 --> 0:53:09.040 if you think about that, in wonder how much of 0:53:09.080 --> 0:53:11.799 what we perceive is the threat in front of us 0:53:12.920 --> 0:53:20.600 has already largely dissipated. The prognosticators in Washington just haven't 0:53:20.640 --> 0:53:24.239 gotten caught up to it as it works its way out, 0:53:25.000 --> 0:53:29.000 and they just don't pay attention to the actual election 0:53:29.200 --> 0:53:34.600 results where these things are worked out already, in places 0:53:34.680 --> 0:53:36.880 like Ohio, anything, they're there. 0:53:37.200 --> 0:53:41.600 Yeah, I mean, I think that the other side has 0:53:41.680 --> 0:53:44.759 done a very good job of hiding their extremism and 0:53:44.800 --> 0:53:47.439 how it impacts everyday people for a long time. I mean, 0:53:47.960 --> 0:53:50.719 but they know it. They know that if fully exposed, 0:53:50.920 --> 0:53:54.799 it will cost them elections. And what's happened especially since 0:53:54.800 --> 0:53:58.239 Stobbs but Trump did it Marjorie Taylor Green dous. Every 0:53:58.280 --> 0:54:01.000 day people are seeing it now in a way they weren't. 0:54:01.760 --> 0:54:04.840 And when they see it, they clearly are reacting to 0:54:04.920 --> 0:54:07.319 vote against it, either because they're tired of it or 0:54:07.320 --> 0:54:10.520 they're scared of it. And that's why, you know, again, 0:54:11.520 --> 0:54:14.279 we should take it seriously, We should run knowing that 0:54:14.320 --> 0:54:17.280 if they ever win, the danger of that is horrible. 0:54:17.640 --> 0:54:20.000 But now that people are seeing and the post dobs 0:54:20.040 --> 0:54:22.680 really matters here, it's not just that they see a 0:54:22.719 --> 0:54:26.480 threat to democracy. They're starting to see through things like Dobbs, 0:54:26.480 --> 0:54:30.200 but other issues. Well, the reason they're attacking democracy is 0:54:30.239 --> 0:54:32.880 to inflict things on my life that not only do 0:54:32.960 --> 0:54:35.439 I not agree with, but that will make my life 0:54:35.520 --> 0:54:38.400 a lot worse. And once they see the connection between 0:54:38.400 --> 0:54:42.360 the attack on democracy, this you know, flirting with authoritarianism, 0:54:42.680 --> 0:54:46.160 and the everyday issue like post dobs, that will change 0:54:46.200 --> 0:54:49.279 their life because a minority is going to rule over 0:54:49.320 --> 0:54:52.520 them on issues they care about. That combination is really 0:54:52.600 --> 0:54:57.000 dangerous for their side. And as you see when people 0:54:57.000 --> 0:54:59.040 who may not want to engage in the thirty thousand 0:54:59.040 --> 0:55:03.120 foot level, you know, conversational on democracy or jerrymandering. See, oh, 0:55:03.160 --> 0:55:05.200 the result of that, the result of that issue one 0:55:05.360 --> 0:55:07.920 is my own choices in my life where I live 0:55:07.960 --> 0:55:10.399 in Ohio. It's that ten year old rape victim being 0:55:10.400 --> 0:55:14.120 forced to go to Indiana. That combination is very dangerous 0:55:14.120 --> 0:55:17.160 for them. And if we do a good job of 0:55:17.360 --> 0:55:20.759 making it clear that that's why they're attacking democracy, that's 0:55:20.800 --> 0:55:23.440 what Donald Trump will do in your state, in your community. 0:55:23.640 --> 0:55:26.239 That's what you know that state house will do in 0:55:26.280 --> 0:55:29.719 your community. That's what I think we we we pile 0:55:29.800 --> 0:55:32.239 together some wins. And the reason, going back to your 0:55:32.520 --> 0:55:35.600 point about no labels, the reason I so worry about 0:55:35.640 --> 0:55:40.120 them is because that will interfere. I believe with the 0:55:40.120 --> 0:55:43.279 potential of a majority finally coming together next year and 0:55:43.320 --> 0:55:46.279 saying we're done with all this, and the danger they're 0:55:46.320 --> 0:55:49.719 bringing is a disruption of something. And I hope, you know, 0:55:50.040 --> 0:55:53.560 I hope, and I think if we all do everything right, 0:55:54.239 --> 0:55:56.960 that we can finally say, you know, the hell with 0:55:57.040 --> 0:56:00.880 this Trump stuff, and the hell with the extremism all 0:56:00.880 --> 0:56:03.360 the way down the state level issue where they're atacking democracy, 0:56:03.920 --> 0:56:06.359 and and so anything that gets in the way, I think, 0:56:06.400 --> 0:56:09.799 which is some momentum in a little winning streak that's 0:56:09.800 --> 0:56:13.120 building in more quiet elections that could really come through 0:56:13.120 --> 0:56:14.719 in a big election, is a threat. And that's why 0:56:14.760 --> 0:56:17.400 I agree with you. But the threat that is that 0:56:17.480 --> 0:56:21.200 what otherwise could be a nice winning streat for democracy 0:56:21.520 --> 0:56:23.520 that we're building and seeing happening right. 0:56:23.440 --> 0:56:28.799 Now, that that coalition which which you're referencing is a 0:56:28.840 --> 0:56:32.839 coalition and its component parts right, its largest part will 0:56:32.840 --> 0:56:38.839 be Democrats, its second largest element will be independents, and 0:56:38.880 --> 0:56:43.239 it's and its third largest element, sizable and very important 0:56:43.280 --> 0:56:48.360 one will be disaffected Republicans who you need to be 0:56:48.480 --> 0:56:52.840 part of the coalition. We're running out of time here. 0:56:53.040 --> 0:56:55.239 Let me let me give you the last pitch here, 0:56:55.440 --> 0:57:00.040 make the pitch right that that you would like to see, 0:57:00.120 --> 0:57:02.759 you know, made out of the White House, out of 0:57:03.480 --> 0:57:09.920 the National Democratic Party to Americans that tells them to 0:57:10.000 --> 0:57:15.239 come together into a coalition. I mean, the one thing 0:57:15.680 --> 0:57:21.000 that we have not heard in seven years is basically 0:57:21.080 --> 0:57:26.040 someone from the Democratic Party I think very directly saying 0:57:26.680 --> 0:57:30.440 I don't care you're a Democrat, you're an independent, you're 0:57:30.480 --> 0:57:35.040 a Republican. I'm talking to you today as an American. 0:57:35.120 --> 0:57:39.520 Right, I mean what I would say. I'll do my 0:57:39.560 --> 0:57:43.120 best at this, but I think one side has clearly 0:57:43.160 --> 0:57:46.480 lost its way, and it is caught up in a 0:57:47.000 --> 0:57:53.640 very fringe approach to almost everything in American society day 0:57:53.680 --> 0:57:56.520 that most people just do not agree with. They sometimes 0:57:56.600 --> 0:57:59.360 hide it well, but we see it playing out in Florida. 0:57:59.440 --> 0:58:01.880 We see it play out with a ten year old 0:58:01.920 --> 0:58:04.880 rape victim being sent to Indiana because they passed something 0:58:04.880 --> 0:58:08.280 here that only ten percent of fewer of Ohioans agree with. 0:58:08.800 --> 0:58:13.360 And that side understands that its viewpoint is actually deeply unpopular. 0:58:13.840 --> 0:58:16.680 And the reason we keep running into things like issue 0:58:16.720 --> 0:58:19.200 on or Jerrymainering is because they're trying to keep in 0:58:19.280 --> 0:58:24.840 place policies that would never sustain broad the broad majority 0:58:24.840 --> 0:58:28.480 consensus of as you say, Republicans, Independence, and Democrats in Ohio. 0:58:29.040 --> 0:58:30.920 And so I think what Democrats need to pitch on 0:58:31.120 --> 0:58:34.960 is going to back for a middle class of middle 0:58:35.000 --> 0:58:39.840 class based economics that lifts people all over states like Ohio, 0:58:40.320 --> 0:58:42.480 not the narrow one we see from the other side 0:58:42.600 --> 0:58:46.000 a belief in certain public institutions like public schools that 0:58:46.200 --> 0:58:48.200 I don't care if you're in your rural or you're 0:58:48.200 --> 0:58:51.040 in urban Ohio. These are the centers of our communities. 0:58:51.400 --> 0:58:54.480 Let's lift them. So. I think there's a broad common 0:58:54.600 --> 0:58:59.040 agreement on most of where America needs to go. One 0:58:59.080 --> 0:59:02.120 side doesn't agree with that viewpoint, that's why they're trying 0:59:02.120 --> 0:59:04.919 to suppress democracy, and the other side, I think needs 0:59:04.920 --> 0:59:06.920 to do a much better job of bringing everyone together 0:59:07.040 --> 0:59:09.800 around those issues. I think remove a lot of the 0:59:09.840 --> 0:59:11.840 crazy stuff. I think that Joe Biden, as you said, 0:59:12.040 --> 0:59:14.680 has done a very good job on most of those issues. 0:59:15.160 --> 0:59:17.280 I think his state of the State of the Union 0:59:17.320 --> 0:59:20.640 speech actually weave them together very well. And I think 0:59:20.680 --> 0:59:24.880 in the coming year, the assignment is to take those 0:59:24.960 --> 0:59:27.480 elements of that common sort of fabric of what we 0:59:27.520 --> 0:59:29.880 want to get done and to make sure we're talking 0:59:29.960 --> 0:59:32.920 about it well, we're talking about it all parts of 0:59:32.920 --> 0:59:36.600 this country, and we're exposing that the other side doesn't 0:59:36.600 --> 0:59:38.440 agree with them. Was any of those things, and most 0:59:38.480 --> 0:59:40.520 of that agenda on the other side is something that 0:59:41.200 --> 0:59:43.960 at best thirty five percent agree on, and in many 0:59:44.000 --> 0:59:47.200 cases far less and the reason why we see them 0:59:47.240 --> 0:59:50.400 always rigging the rules of democracy is because they know 0:59:50.520 --> 0:59:53.600 that and they know they would lose if we have 0:59:53.640 --> 0:59:55.920 a straight up vote on what we want to do 0:59:56.240 --> 0:59:57.280 versus what they want to do. 0:59:57.600 --> 1:00:00.360 Well, we'll leave it there, David Pepper, thank you very 1:00:00.440 --> 1:00:04.840 very much for taking the time this afternoon. Wise words 1:00:04.880 --> 1:00:11.320 and great counsel for everybody listening. American democracy is under threat. 1:00:11.440 --> 1:00:15.480 It is not self sustaining. We're approaching the two hundred 1:00:15.520 --> 1:00:19.840 and fiftieth anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. It's a 1:00:20.120 --> 1:00:25.320 momentous achievement and one that will require this generation of 1:00:25.400 --> 1:00:30.000 Americans to recommit to a sense of duty, obligation, and 1:00:30.080 --> 1:00:34.760 responsibility and also common sense. You know, I tell my 1:00:34.880 --> 1:00:39.800 kids this, someone will always be in charge. And in 1:00:39.840 --> 1:00:44.360 the case of a state like Ohio, if you give 1:00:44.400 --> 1:00:50.360 away the right to write your future, the people who 1:00:50.440 --> 1:00:53.520 take it may not have your best interest at heart, 1:00:54.000 --> 1:00:59.680 but rest assured somebody will take it. You show indifference 1:00:59.720 --> 1:01:03.240 towards who's running things. People take advantage of it every 1:01:03.360 --> 1:01:07.000 every time. One of the central lessons of history and 1:01:07.000 --> 1:01:11.360 and one of the real dangers in the democracy. 1:01:10.440 --> 1:01:18.560 M m hmmmm, h m h m hmmm.