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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. For earlier access to these episodes, access

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Speaker 1: to Ask Me Anything sessions, and extended breakdowns of historical

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Speaker 1: and current events, Please consider joining our Warning Premium community

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Speaker 1: by clicking the link in the description to this episode.

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Speaker 1: I'm very pleased today to be joined by the former

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party Chairman of the great State of Ohio, David Pepper,

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Speaker 1: an author of multiple books, including his latest, Saving Democracy,

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Speaker 1: a user's manual for every American. Welcome David Pepper.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, it's honored to be with you. Steve.

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Speaker 1: David, you were the chairman Democratic Chairman, Democratic Party Chairman

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Speaker 1: of the state of Ohio, which has become a Republican

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Speaker 1: state in recent years, but up through the two thousand

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Speaker 1: and four Bush election, which I was part of. In

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, was considered to be the really

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Speaker 1: top swing state along with Florida that decided the election.

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Speaker 1: Just in a nutshell, what happened. This was a state

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Speaker 1: that narrowly went to George Bush in two thousand and four,

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Speaker 1: Barack Obama in two thousand and eight, to Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: by two thousand and sixteen, and coming into twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 1: this looks like a Republican state except for and we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about that in a minute, some of the overreach

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Speaker 1: of the party and in the election snapback, but in

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Speaker 1: a nutshell for people who are not from Ohio, talk

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Speaker 1: about what happened, and then secondly, talk about how corrupt

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Speaker 1: the state has become under the one party rule of

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Speaker 1: the Ohio Republican Party.

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Speaker 2: Sure, and a great question, and it brings back painful

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Speaker 2: memories when you were celebrated. I wasn't four all day.

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Speaker 2: We were being told that Carrie was going to win,

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Speaker 2: and I was out of the poll trying to help.

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Speaker 2: But big picture, you know, I think it's fair to

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Speaker 2: say that Ohio always lean, has always leaned a couple

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Speaker 2: points to the right, and only it's been quite fifty

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Speaker 2: to fifty, especially for state out sorry, state level elections,

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Speaker 2: you know, governor others. So if you're winning Ohio as

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Speaker 2: a Democrat, you're gonna win. You're going to win the country.

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Speaker 2: But it's it's not a fifty to fifty proposition to begin.

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Speaker 2: It's a little bit uphill from there. But obviously good

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Speaker 2: candidates think Barack Obama could win it. What's happened, you know,

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Speaker 2: A couple of things. One, I mean, there is there

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Speaker 2: we have become a bellweather. Now I'm afraid of how

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Speaker 2: you can use the powers of state government to make

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Speaker 2: a state hard to win if you're a Democrat. The

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Speaker 2: old old margins of victory that wet Barack Obama, for example,

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Speaker 2: enjoyed in eight and twelve have been made far more

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Speaker 2: difficult by pretty relentless purging of voters in Ohio. That's

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Speaker 2: made the margins harder to achieve. You know, Hillary Clinton

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Speaker 2: and Joe Biden both won Cuyahoga County by a greater

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Speaker 2: percentage of registered voters than Barack Obama did, but because

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Speaker 2: there's so many fewer registered voters thanks to years of purging,

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Speaker 2: their actual raw vote margins were lower significantly than Barack Obama.

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Speaker 2: So the base of Ohio's Democratic side has actually got

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Speaker 2: a little smaller. And you could blame Democrats that are

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Speaker 2: not firing up the base enough, but we also know

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Speaker 2: that purging's part of that. There's no doubt that Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump also, though, really started a fire in parts of

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Speaker 2: the state that weren't turning out as much true rural

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Speaker 2: but also flip some areas like the Valley to some degree,

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Speaker 2: and all the way down the Ohio River on the

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Speaker 2: east side of the state that Ted Strickland used to

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Speaker 2: win handily. So our base has gotten smaller through purging

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Speaker 2: and less energized voters. And Donald Trump took a part

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Speaker 2: of the state that used to vote for Democrats and

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Speaker 2: has moved it in some case because he's talked about

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Speaker 2: issues like trade in the way that Democrats there used

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Speaker 2: to talk about it. And you add that up in

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Speaker 2: a state that used to be more swing has gotten

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Speaker 2: harder to win. So you put those two together, it's harder.

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Speaker 2: But it doesn't mean that a Sheriff Brown couldn't win

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Speaker 2: in twenty four And it also means that Tim Ryan

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Speaker 2: people don't give him enough credit. Tim Ryan lost by

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Speaker 2: six when the governor candidate lost by twenty six, massive overperformance.

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Speaker 2: That's a winning effort in a normal year with good turnouts.

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Speaker 2: So it's still achievable for a Democrat, but it's gotten

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Speaker 2: a lot harder with some of the trends I talked about.

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Speaker 1: Well, Tim's a good friend of mine and I was

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Speaker 1: involved in that race and it was as good a

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Speaker 1: political campaign as I've ever been involved in. But you

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Speaker 1: just you just can't win if the top of the

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Speaker 1: ticket goes down by by twenty six points.

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Speaker 3: And and I had a theory about that race, and it

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Speaker 3: was that Mike DeWine, I think was evaluated by Ohio

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Speaker 3: voters as he's been around for a long time.

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Speaker 1: He's not going to do anything to particularly make my

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Speaker 1: life more difficult. He's drama free. But not so long

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Speaker 1: after the election here right where we're two years after

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Speaker 1: or less than a year after. You know, the governor

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Speaker 1: has seen seemed to be on his back. Heels uh

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Speaker 1: to be severely weakened, and the Republican extremists in Ohio

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Speaker 1: have overreached and been severely rebuked in recent weeks. And

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Speaker 1: why don't you talk about that, talk about the issue

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Speaker 1: and how you see that as a party chairman, as

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Speaker 1: the winds are blowing out there that may well be

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Speaker 1: contrary to what we're constantly told is going to happen

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Speaker 1: from Washington, d C. Which rarely ever does.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, let me just say, Mike the Wine benefited

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Speaker 2: from this long time image of being an old type

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Speaker 2: of Republican, the more moderate one. He was actually quite

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Speaker 2: responsible during COVID and I think versus Tim, Mike the

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Speaker 2: Wine did very well in suburbs that Tim then ended

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Speaker 2: up winning tim Ran ended up winning as well, so

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Speaker 2: he really benefited from a responsible response to COVID that

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Speaker 2: got a lot of credit with more moderate voters, including women.

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Speaker 2: That's all dramatically changed since the second term began. We

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Speaker 2: are now a bellweather, not as to who's win the presidency.

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Speaker 2: We have become a bellweather as to what it looks

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Speaker 2: like when a far right group of extremists takes over

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Speaker 2: your state through a Jerrymaer state house. That's what we

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Speaker 2: now represent and what this is why I wrote this

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Speaker 2: first book called Laboratories of Autocracy. We are what happened.

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Speaker 2: We are what can happen to a state that's been

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Speaker 2: generally moderate when it's been hijacked by a jerrymannered extremist group.

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Speaker 2: And that's why what we are seeing and living in

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Speaker 2: Ohio is just like Missouri. It's just like Tennessee, and

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Speaker 2: it's a downward spiral. And what was so great in

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Speaker 2: what we see in states like Ohio is cowardly moderates

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Speaker 2: who know better, like Mike DeWine and John Hughestead and

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Speaker 2: others in Portman before them. They never stand up to it,

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Speaker 2: and so the far right takes over these states. And

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Speaker 2: what issue one was was a far right kind of

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Speaker 2: a jail break. Try to say, Okay, we are living

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Speaker 2: in these extremist legislative districts, we want to pass things

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Speaker 2: that we know the people of how don't agree with.

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Speaker 2: And because we've gotten away with jerrymandering, because the state

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court is in the same hands of the party

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Speaker 2: that controls our state House, we know that the only

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Speaker 2: check on us, on our extremism and our lack of accountability,

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Speaker 2: the only check are the people themselves going to the Constitution.

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Speaker 2: And these greedy right wingers said, we're gonna get rid

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Speaker 2: of that check too. We don't want any checks left.

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Speaker 2: And the great and Mike DeWine, like he always does,

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Speaker 2: like he did with Jerry Mannering, went along with all

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Speaker 2: of it. And the great news last week is, and

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Speaker 2: this is really important, a multi partisan coalition of people

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Speaker 2: Democrats of course, but independence and a whole lot of

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Speaker 2: Republicans and a whole lot of counties that you guys

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Speaker 2: would have been planned on winning. And oh Ford, since

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Speaker 2: when you were running those campaigns, said hell no, we

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Speaker 2: may not agree on everything, but we see this for

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Speaker 2: what it is. It's a power grab by extremists. To

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Speaker 2: destroy a house democracy. We're not for it, we're voting

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Speaker 2: it down. That's why Casey was against it. That's why

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Speaker 2: Bob Taff was against it. That's why Democrats were against it.

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Speaker 2: And you'll love this, Steve being having run in Ohio,

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Speaker 2: that's where Delaware County. That's why Delaware County voted against it.

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Speaker 2: That's why Portage County, that's why Butler County, a very

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Speaker 2: republican large county, fifty to fifty, it almost reached a majority. Know,

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Speaker 2: And so you saw this really broad. I would say

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Speaker 2: it's sort of a new pro democracy coalition saying we

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Speaker 2: see what this is. We may be Republicans, but this

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Speaker 2: is not what democracy is about. And they joined hands

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Speaker 2: with independent Democrats and we felt the thing. So it

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Speaker 2: was a great day. That was basically Mike the Wine

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Speaker 2: allowed himself to be taken in by the far right

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Speaker 2: like he always does, and people saw it as a

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Speaker 2: far right attackle democracy and it was rejected accordingly, which

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Speaker 2: was obviously a great day, not just for Ohio but

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Speaker 2: across the country.

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Speaker 1: And what's the fallout, excuse me, what's the fallout been?

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Speaker 1: Since people, the far right politicians who brought this to

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Speaker 1: Ohio voters tried to foist it on them, are saying,

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Speaker 1: what about it? Are they chasing it all?

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Speaker 2: No? Again, most of these people have in their entire careers,

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Speaker 2: especially the state House members, never been in the world democracy.

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Speaker 2: They've been in districts that they cannot lose. So their

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Speaker 2: reaction isn't just like nothing they do is the behavior

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Speaker 2: you'd expect any normal democracy. Their reaction is not also

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Speaker 2: what you'd expect normal democracy. What would you and I do?

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Speaker 2: And if we were in anything close to competitive districts

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Speaker 2: and this happened, we'd say, the voters are spoken, we've

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Speaker 2: learned our lesson, We're going to eat some humble pie.

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Speaker 2: We'll do things differently. What have they done, like Franklin

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Speaker 2: Rose this horrible sector of state we're stuck with, or

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Speaker 2: the state Senate president who's basically been in Jerrymaner District's

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Speaker 2: whole life, they've basically repeated all the rhetoric that was

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Speaker 2: called out by the voters. Well, this is just the

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Speaker 2: left wing taking over the Matt Huffman, the Senate President,

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Speaker 2: said we're going to do it again. So almost none

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Speaker 2: of the people really in charge of this thing have

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Speaker 2: learned a lesson in Franklin Rose and you'll recognize this behavior.

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Speaker 2: He's now in a primary for Senate, so he's tripling

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Speaker 2: down on the rhetoric because he wants to grab as

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Speaker 2: many the Yes voters as he can for his own primary.

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Speaker 2: So they have to learn the thing. Now, what what

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Speaker 2: is the side for democracy? Need to learn? We need

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Speaker 2: to learn that when we when we when we break

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Speaker 2: bread across all sorts of divides to protect democracy, we

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Speaker 2: can win. So we need to win. We need to

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Speaker 2: learn our lesson, even as the other side clearly, stubbornly

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Speaker 2: in some cases, with a whole lot of whining, failed

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Speaker 2: to learn their lesson, which is, you go for broth

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Speaker 2: throughtect democracy in the state of Ohio, You're going to lose.

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Speaker 1: Do you do you have any sense of Trump deflating

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Speaker 1: at all in Ohio with normal people, either by fatigue

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Speaker 1: over the accumulation of criminal accusations, fatigue over the constancy

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Speaker 1: of the news coverage, or just fatigue over Trump demand.

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Speaker 2: Anecdotally, I'd say yes. I mean I think he will

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Speaker 2: win big in the Republican prime. I think his endorsement

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Speaker 2: in the Senate primary like it did you know, saving

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Speaker 2: a JD. Vance, who is mired a third or fourth

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Speaker 2: depending on the day. I think his endorsement in the

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Speaker 2: Republican primary here probably settles that primary. But more broadly,

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Speaker 2: I do think I think he's a worse candidate than

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Speaker 2: he wasn't either sixteen or twenty, believe it or not,

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Speaker 2: because all he's got now is this set of trials

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Speaker 2: and these crazy statements about him being our retribution or

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Speaker 2: whatever they are. It's not a campaign. I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: just almost bizarre. So I have had, you know, family friends,

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Speaker 2: die hard Republicans who my guess is didn't didn't voted

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Speaker 2: for Trump in sixteen twenty, who now say to me

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Speaker 2: things like, I can't even watch him on TV anymore,

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Speaker 2: it's too much. Now does that mean that Biden wins Ohio? Maybe?

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Speaker 2: I think it means it could be closer. I think

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Speaker 2: it means it could be close enough that Sharon wins

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Speaker 2: in a way that Tim Ryan couldn't overcome a twenty

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Speaker 2: six point deficit. I think the Biden Trump of margin

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Speaker 2: is close enough that Shared can win this race. I

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Speaker 2: think I would greetly probably will be.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 2: I think that there is some and this is true nationally.

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Speaker 2: Trump's gotten so sort of far into the bizarreness that

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Speaker 2: I think some of his appeal in sixteen about forgotten

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Speaker 2: America as he would put it, and some of his

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Speaker 2: appeal in twenty I think now it's really down to

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Speaker 2: just such a bizarre sort of feel for that campaign,

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Speaker 2: the way he talks about it. Everything's backward looking. For example. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think there's some fatigue here, and I've heard people

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Speaker 2: express it literally as I can't even watch my TV

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Speaker 2: anymore when he's talking and the person is saying this,

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Speaker 2: I'm sensing. Voted for him twice.

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Speaker 1: Do you expect him to be the Republican nominee?

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Speaker 2: I do, I do. I just one, I think that

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Speaker 2: he clearly has a lock on the party two except

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Speaker 2: for to their credit, Chris Christy and Asa Hutchinson. The

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Speaker 2: others just yes, let's give pench credit. I think he's

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Speaker 2: speaking up someone on January sixth, not enough the rest

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Speaker 2: of them. You're not going to beat someone who's ahead

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Speaker 2: of you if you just basically give them cover. And

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Speaker 2: so the top people against him are all basically saying, yeah,

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Speaker 2: all these trials are nothing, but you know, the weaponization

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Speaker 2: VIAJ like, I just think it's a group of very

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Speaker 2: weak candidates. I think this Sandus is especially shown from

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Speaker 2: the very beginning. Personally, this is not a major league candidate.

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Speaker 2: He just example, Yeah, he's a terrible candidate. As a

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Speaker 2: party chair, you are assessing candidates all the time. This

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Speaker 2: guy reminds me of the worst candids. He stands in

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Speaker 2: the back of the room, can't talk to anybody, Just

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Speaker 2: not comfortable his own skin, you know. So I just

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Speaker 2: think that the main candidates are weak already. None of

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Speaker 2: them really wants to take him on, and the ones

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Speaker 2: who are willing to take him on, I'm glad they are,

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Speaker 2: but I don't think they're really players. So yeah, I

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Speaker 2: expect him through the worst of it. I just don't

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Speaker 2: think even the worst situation in terms of the legal

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Speaker 2: path he's stuck on right now, divert from him winning

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Speaker 2: the primary.

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Speaker 1: I was talking to my friend Matthew Dowd last week,

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Speaker 1: who's as smart a guy as I've ever met when

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Speaker 1: it comes to American politics, and he had a couple

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Speaker 1: of observations about the Santas and one was basically, can

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Speaker 1: you believe how bad he is at this? And it's

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Speaker 1: it's shocking right as a as a national candidate, he's

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Speaker 1: kind of been, I think, falsely lifted on this kind

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Speaker 1: of hot air of assumptions by the national media absent

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Speaker 1: absent any merit. But secondly, what he said was how

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Speaker 1: disconnected the politics in Florida has become from from national politics.

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Speaker 1: Because if if he's their guy, and and apparently he

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Speaker 1: might be judging by the by the size of the

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Speaker 1: landslide reelection, Uh, it just doesn't fly in the rest

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Speaker 1: of America. And and I wonder when you when you

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Speaker 1: look at the Democratic Party, there's something that's not talked

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Speaker 1: about enough. In my view seven years on since Trump

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Speaker 1: came down the escalator, Trump is beating who exactly right? Meaning?

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Speaker 1: What is wrong with a party that it could conceivably

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Speaker 1: lose to these people? What is it when you honestly

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Speaker 1: look at the Democratic Party? And I come at it

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Speaker 1: from a perspective as a former Republican who was always

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Speaker 1: a moderate in my politics, that both of these parties

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Speaker 1: are extremely important institutions in the history of the country,

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Speaker 1: in world history for the advancement of human free eat

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Speaker 1: them and democracy. But what is it about the Democratic

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Speaker 1: Party that it has become so estranged from so many

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Speaker 1: Americans that this mag of movement is seen as any

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Speaker 1: type of alternative at all.

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Speaker 2: No, that's a that's a great question, and it goes

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Speaker 2: back to something I really focus on in the book

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Speaker 2: that you mentioned in this Saving Democracy book. You know,

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Speaker 2: I think on most of our core issues, we actually

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Speaker 2: are in step with mainstream America, you know, a middle

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Speaker 2: class based economics, public education, a woman's right to choose.

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Speaker 2: But I think in many ways the way we run

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Speaker 2: doesn't highlight that. Normally, when the question is called on

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Speaker 2: these issues, like in Kansas, we win, or like in

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Speaker 2: Ohio last week, we win. But one of my biggest

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Speaker 2: sort of passions, if you hear me at all, is

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Speaker 2: we got to run everywhere, because if we don't run everywhere,

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Speaker 2: we're not communicating what we're for. We're letting them communicate

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Speaker 2: who we are without us actually fighting back. And so

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Speaker 2: what's happened? And when I say we're not running everywhere,

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Speaker 2: that we're not even making an effort anywhere. It's fifty

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Speaker 2: percent of the Tennessee Republicans who voted out those two

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Speaker 2: justices no opponent the prior November fifty percent of them.

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Speaker 2: Basically Oklahoma, it's above sixty, Texas and most states it's

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Speaker 2: in the thirty or forty percentage. And when we're not

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Speaker 2: in the fight in these areas a, we're not holding

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Speaker 2: extremism accountable, and their extremism is a loser. We are

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Speaker 2: seeing it lose all over. We saw it lose with

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Speaker 2: every election denying sector of state candidate in a swing

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Speaker 2: state last November, they lost everywhere. We see it lose

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Speaker 2: again when it's exposed and they're bringing it out more

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Speaker 2: and more of the Destantus and Trump primary. But if

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Speaker 2: we're not in the fight exposing it for what it

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Speaker 2: is and then saying what we're they're winning. And they're

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Speaker 2: not only winning, they're defining the term. So I'll say

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Speaker 2: it in this way. So much I see so much people,

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Speaker 2: so many people sorry, taking credit for the good things

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Speaker 2: that the Biden and Democratic bills did around infrastructure and

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Speaker 2: chips in all these red states. In Ohio, the lieutenant

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Speaker 2: governor runs around Ohio and he takes credit for all

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Speaker 2: of it. And if you're not running it everywhere, you're

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Speaker 2: not even there to raise your hands and say, oh,

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Speaker 2: actually you had nothing to do with this, that was

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Speaker 2: our side doing it. We're the ones that lifted the

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Speaker 2: middle class. We're the ones that invested in infrastructure, and

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Speaker 2: so what do they do when we're not running? They

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Speaker 2: blame us for problems. They mischaracterized why those problems happen.

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Speaker 2: You know, the reason that rural schools are suffering a

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Speaker 2: lot of states isn't because of some caravan for Mexico,

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Speaker 2: It's because the state houses voted to decrease funding for

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Speaker 2: those schools. But if you're not running everywhere, they get

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Speaker 2: to blame it on the people that aren't even in

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Speaker 2: the game. And then we also aren't taking credit what

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Speaker 2: we're doing. So I think that on core issues like

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Speaker 2: you go back to and you, I assume agreed with

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Speaker 2: me that Joe Biden's State of the State of Union

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Speaker 2: was a masterful speech. Almost everything he talked about, you know,

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Speaker 2: whether it's economics or social security or whatever, was very

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Speaker 2: popular and it was a good speech. The reason they

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Speaker 2: shouted him down was they didn't want people to hear

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Speaker 2: about unpopular positions they have. But when you're not running everywhere,

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Speaker 2: you're not able to give that communication where it needs

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Speaker 2: to be heard, and you end up getting turned upside

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Speaker 2: down all over. So I think that core messaging and

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Speaker 2: core positions are actually quite strong. But we're not executing

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Speaker 2: in a way that we're having. Most people in all

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Speaker 2: the places you're talking about here are message and so

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Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of work to do. And

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Speaker 2: this is what I go through this book. Build an

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Speaker 2: infrastructure that values running everywhere, that says we want you

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Speaker 2: stepping up to run even in tough places. We celebrate

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Speaker 2: you as a patriot when you do that. And then

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Speaker 2: when you're in those places, message on the things that

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Speaker 2: they are doing badly in those places. And all over

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Speaker 2: states like Ohio that are corrupt. You mentioned the corruption.

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Speaker 2: We have massive corruption Ohio, the biggest bribery scandal in history.

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Speaker 2: The former speaker went to jail a month ago or

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Speaker 2: two months ago. And every time you see a corrupt state,

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Speaker 2: you see terrible outcomes. Ohio public schools who rank fifth

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Speaker 2: of the nation fourteen years ago. Now we're in the

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Speaker 2: mid twenties. You see small towns collapsing again, not because

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Speaker 2: of caravans from Mexico, because of their policies and state

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Speaker 2: houses not working. Run everywhere, and then explain to them

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Speaker 2: the reason these things are happening is because of their policies,

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Speaker 2: and we're going to do better, and that's how you

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Speaker 2: have someone like the new Demo Lora Kelly, the second

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Speaker 2: term Democratic governor of Kansas. She ran on issues like

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Speaker 2: that and won. So I think it all starts with

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Speaker 2: a different mindset. Be a national party, run everywhere, hold

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Speaker 2: extremists accountable everywhere, and run hard on issues that frustrate

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Speaker 2: everyday people that often are not doing well because of

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Speaker 2: the policies coming out of these these rig state houses.

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Speaker 1: Do you view the extremism and the corruption as deeply linked?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely all, It's all once you have a I have

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Speaker 2: these little sort of charts I go through in my book.

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Speaker 2: Basically they're the two interests who love jerrymandered state houses

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Speaker 2: are the extremists national and not just in state. National

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Speaker 2: extremists who know that their worldview would lose every time

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Speaker 2: in a fair democracy. They know Kansas would be their

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Speaker 2: future forever, or Ohio this last week. If you have

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Speaker 2: a straight up vote on abortion bands, no exceptions that

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Speaker 2: send rape victims to other states, they will lose every time.

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Speaker 2: They know it, so they want to They want a

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Speaker 2: jerry managed state house. But who also wants a jerrymandered

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Speaker 2: state house? The special interests? Because often what do these

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Speaker 2: special interests want they want a piece of the public pie.

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Speaker 2: When they get the public pie, public outcomes sintegrade, take

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Speaker 2: public school money, give it to for profit scams like

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Speaker 2: they did in Ohio. They were called doing so the

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Speaker 2: public schools decline. So extremism and corruption are literally the

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Speaker 2: outgrowths and ultimately the drivers of gerrymandering, because in a

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Speaker 2: fair democracy, the corruption wouldn't work, the poor outcomes would

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Speaker 2: lead to accountability for the politicians creating those outcomes. Once

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Speaker 2: you gerrymander, they know that they can have terrible schools

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Speaker 2: and worse health outcomes and no infrastructure and still get

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Speaker 2: re elected, just like they know they can pass things

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Speaker 2: like abortion bands no exception of rape princess and get

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Speaker 2: re elected. So both extremism and the corruption are sort

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Speaker 2: of tied to the hip with these with these broken

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Speaker 2: state houses. And that's why we see what we see

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Speaker 2: in Ohio, a downward spiral of both corruption and extremism.

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Speaker 2: And the smart ones know they could you know, think

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Speaker 2: of and you again, you've done this longer than I have.

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Speaker 2: If you you're a politician, and you have dedicated your

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Speaker 2: career to a path of extremism, out of touch with

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Speaker 2: your voters, and corruption for which you could be held accountable.

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Speaker 2: You have all these screwed up incentives, as in one being,

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Speaker 2: keep attacking democracy, because if you ever allowed a fair

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Speaker 2: democracy back into your system, back in your district, you

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Speaker 2: know that the candidate would beat you by pointing out

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Speaker 2: how extreme you are and how corrupt you are. So

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Speaker 2: once they're on this course of extremism and corruption, they

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Speaker 2: really have this intense incentive to keep gerrymannering. And that's

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Speaker 2: why you see these states. People think it can never

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Speaker 2: get worse. They can't keep suppressing. They keep gerrymannering. They

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Speaker 2: know they have to because they would never survive at

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Speaker 2: a fair democracy with records as extreme and as honestly

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Speaker 2: corrupt as many of the records are.

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Speaker 1: There's a couple of things I want to talk to

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Speaker 1: you about, but let me start here. The Trump mag

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Speaker 1: of faction in this country. What number do you put

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Speaker 1: it at?

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Speaker 2: I mean, my sense is it always shows up in

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Speaker 2: the some level.

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Speaker 1: In the thirties, right, I'll stipulate to thirty five percent.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I mean.

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Speaker 1: And I'll and I'll say thirty five percent of the

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Speaker 1: country is into this, wants it, likes it, you know,

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Speaker 1: President President for life. Now. The danger for the rest

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Speaker 1: of us how that group takes power is them plus

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Speaker 1: enough apathy to have a temporary majority where they take

431
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: power and are able to structurally do things from the

432
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: system that make the practice of democracy very, very difficult

433
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: when when you think about how to beat them. I'm

434
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: very concerned right now about something that I see playing out,

435
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: and I wonder what your reaction to it is. First,

436
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: the No Labels organization is not getting as much coverage

437
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: I think as it deserves to get. But secondarily, if

438
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: they are on the level, and that's an if, and

439
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: and by on the level, I mean if they have

440
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: the resources to secure BALLID access, which is a as

441
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: you know, will will be in all fifty states, a

442
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: cost that is that is upwards of one hundred million

443
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,959
Speaker 1: dollars in cash. But but they say they can do it,

444
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: they say they're raising the money to do it. So

445
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 1: I presume that they can do it, right, that they

446
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: that they're not saying that to go out and fall

447
00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 1: flat on their faces. If they do do it, the

448
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: Democratic Party, the Biden White House doesn't get a vote

449
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: on whether they do it or not. They're in a game.

450
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 1: Then that's essentially a three way race, and a three

451
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: way race changes the dynamics of the race. One of

452
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: the ways it changes the dynamics is it breaks the

453
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: seventeen state monopoly where presidential races are decided, and it

454
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: expands the field to at least thirty five forty states,

455
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: bringing down the winning threshold right to the high thirties,

456
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 1: which is a number within reach of Trump's hardcore base.

457
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: So my first question, how concerned are you when you

458
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: hear Washington democrats talk about the race to come talk

459
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 1: about it in terms that discount the possibility that, in fact,

460
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: the race that's coming doesn't look anything like the race

461
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: they're talking about.

462
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm concerned partly because of no labels, and

463
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 2: partly more broadly that when we basically only go into

464
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 2: the states that we think matter in the current conception

465
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 2: of swing states, we give up so much of the

466
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 2: battlefield of democracy to the other side. So I am

467
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 2: actually concerned before we even bring them into the conversation.

468
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 2: I think that the other side is basically their front

469
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 2: line of attacking democracy and advancing extremism are the very

470
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 2: states where we largely aren't there, And because we're not there,

471
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: we make it easy for them, So I think we

472
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 2: already need to have a much broader strategy. Democracy itself

473
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 2: is what's at stake right now. If they're using state

474
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 2: houses to make most of their progress, which they are,

475
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 2: we should be there anyway. But to your point, yeah,

476
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 2: the no labels adds a whole new and dangerous wrinkle.

477
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: And I go back. I don't want to claim to

478
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 2: be a history professor, but there's so much parallel in

479
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: our history to what we're dealing with right now. And

480
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 2: the biggest parallel with what you're describing is there was

481
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 2: a pretty serious faction for a number of years against

482
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 2: allowing white supremacy to retake back over the South. But

483
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 2: those white supremacists were dedicated, and I don't know what

484
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: the number was, but they were a big number in

485
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 2: the South. And the reason they end up succeeding is

486
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 2: they never gave up their unity, and at some point

487
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 2: the folks that were dedicated to stopping them, like Ulysses Grant,

488
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 2: who grew up not far from here, are very proud

489
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 2: of what his work was. Was they divided over other issues,

490
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 2: and once they allowed their divisions on economic issues and

491
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 2: other things to divide up what was a majority that

492
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: had been standing up to white supremacy. Once they allowed

493
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: themselves to divide, then the white supremacist in the South

494
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 2: one and all of a sudden, we had Jim Crow

495
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 2: for a century, and the same thing could happen here.

496
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 2: It's mid thirties. It's mid thirties. And if we allow

497
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 2: the you know, the fifties and sixties that don't agree

498
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 2: with this guy to divide up in the way that

499
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 2: you're talking about, in the way that another candidate might

500
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 2: divide up, we give away a majority that otherwise would prevail.

501
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 2: And in the history of our country, is you let

502
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: that happen the wrong time and you could be living

503
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 2: with its consequences for generations.

504
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: I wrote about an Ohio man last week, James Garfield,

505
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: who is not well remembered by the country. But when

506
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 1: you look at American history, this period of time that

507
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: you just refer to was profoundly shaded by two murders,

508
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: two assassinations. So Abraham Lincoln in eighteen sixty five, and

509
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: we talk about Lincoln as America's greatest country is excuse me,

510
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: as America's greatest president. But we forget and don't talk

511
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: a lot about the fact that he was preceded by

512
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: the man who before Trump was the worst president in

513
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: American history, who's now the second worst because of Trump.

514
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: And he was followed by the man who was the

515
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: second worst, who's now the third worst, Andrew Johnson. So

516
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: you come to eighteen eighty in Garfield, who only makes

517
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: it two hundred days in office before he shot at combat.

518
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: Veteran of the Civil War, committed to civil rights, committed

519
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: to the protection of Black American civil liberties in the South,

520
00:31:55,320 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: his murder sets back civil rights really in this treat

521
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: as you suggested, for one hundred years. And the fact

522
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: of the matter is that a devastating defeat, an absolute

523
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: defeat in Civil War a few decades later has twisted

524
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: into the lost myth that there was righteousness in the

525
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: Southern cause, and that myth persists today, and it has

526
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: not been dealt with in this country by our American

527
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: society yet. But I want to ask you a political

528
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: question that steeped in in what we just talked about.

529
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: This minority, this thirty five percent, that through deed, through action,

530
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: through result is hostile to the concepts of American democracy,

531
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: which require both sides to recognize you may lose the election,

532
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: and you'll have to try again next time. To the

533
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: concepts of pluralism, equal rights, the ethos of much of

534
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: the media. A lot of the opposition in this era

535
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:27,959
Speaker 1: has been to seek understanding of these people. Why do

536
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: they feel the way that they feel, Why are they

537
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: aggrieved the way that they are, Why are they angry

538
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: the way they are. I've never been interested in it,

539
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: just like I've never been interested at all in why

540
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: Trump says the things he says around why he says it.

541
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: I just take everything he says literally and seriously, because

542
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, there were people who

543
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: followed him around carrying suitcases with the nuclear weapons codes.

544
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: I just know that that thirty five percent that no

545
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: matter what the act of corruption is, what the act

546
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: of depravity is, what the vandalism towards the country is,

547
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 1: what the assault on our democracy is, they will be

548
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: with him Trump over country one hundred percent of the

549
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: time and seven years and there's no place to compromise politically.

550
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 1: A minority faction is going to bring the majority to submission,

551
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: or the majority in this country who believes in America

552
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: and American ideals is going to snuff out peacefully and

553
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:06,399
Speaker 1: at the ballot box. This minority faction and time is

554
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 1: not on the side of the majority any longer. Seven

555
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: years in what's your what's your reaction to that?

556
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 2: I generally agree. I mean both books I've written are

557
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 2: literally about that. They're I hate to make it even

558
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 2: worse for a second, but I do think this goes

559
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: beyond Trump. I mean this a lot of the work

560
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 2: to the lock in minority rules started before Trump ran.

561
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 2: It started after Obama won, and it's part of a

562
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 2: long history of some people being really you know, threatened

563
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 2: by a diverse majority getting its way. And that's why

564
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 2: some of the worst beginning precursors of this began in

565
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 2: eleven with jerry mandering and with certain types of voter

566
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: suppression directly aimed at the Obama coalition. And it's been

567
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 2: in place, it's been working all this time, and it

568
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,280
Speaker 2: began before Trump ran. He's made it worse. He's fuel

569
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 2: and he's brought up the worst of some people. But

570
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 2: I will say some of the things they are trying

571
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,280
Speaker 2: to do, like issue one, if Trump were locked up tomorrow,

572
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 2: they'd still try and do it. So he is a threat,

573
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 2: and if he wins, we know how it would be

574
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 2: worse than ever. But we also have to deal with

575
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 2: there's a deeper effort here that it's at the state

576
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 2: level that already was working to lock in minority rule

577
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:29,240
Speaker 2: through taking through certain instruments of government, including state houses, jerrymandering, courts,

578
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 2: et cetera. And so and the reason I mean I

579
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,879
Speaker 2: had no plan I stepped aside in his party chair

580
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 2: in December of twenty I had no plans to write

581
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,439
Speaker 2: any books at all. But in about April twenty one,

582
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 2: I had your same alarm bells in my head, like,

583
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 2: my god, we're not seeing this threat. They are going

584
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 2: after democracy itself, and we are still living as if

585
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 2: they're not. We still are assuming that they're going to

586
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 2: play by the same rules as we are, that they're

587
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 2: not willing to break the law, which they are clearly

588
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,959
Speaker 2: willing to do. And so I literally wrote the first

589
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 2: book in a matter of months, almost as alarm bells.

590
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 2: See the battle for what it is. It's not some

591
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 2: sort of clean little battle for a few federal swing stakes.

592
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 2: This is an all out battle for democracy itself. It's

593
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 2: been the same battle we've been in for centuries. Those

594
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 2: are the stakes, and if you're gonna win that battle.

595
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 2: You gotta fight it very differently than the short sort

596
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 2: of cycle mindset of federal battles. So I've been alarmed

597
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 2: about it. I've tried to get the word outse best

598
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 2: I can. And once you see though that it's a

599
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 2: long battle for democracy, you also can start to see

600
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 2: though how to win it. One to realize it is

601
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 2: a long battle. It's not some short cycle battle. Two,

602
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 2: it's a battle you got to take everywhere the front

603
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 2: line is in these states. So go start contesting in

604
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 2: these states. Start this is how Tim Ryan ran his campaign. Way,

605
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 2: Start campaigning in the parts of the states that we've

606
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 2: even been in too long. Start using far more of

607
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 2: your footprint in life. Don't just give a little money,

608
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,399
Speaker 2: don't just do a little volunteering a few months to go.

609
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 2: This is a as you fight it, as Steve Bannon

610
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 2: fights on the other side. They don't quit in December.

611
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,439
Speaker 2: They're not quitting after last week. You got to fight

612
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 2: it all the time. You got to use everything you

613
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 2: have in your network, in your life to lift the battle,

614
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 2: to lift democracy. And then, of course we have to

615
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 2: focus on Trump. But you also have to start to

616
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 2: see and this is something we haven't seen it goes

617
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 2: beyond Trump. When Biden won in November of twenty and

618
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,439
Speaker 2: beat Trump, but then Republicans down the ballot still won

619
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 2: the Arizona State House and all those other state houses.

620
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 2: Those Republicans within months were attacked, as we saw, We're

621
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 2: attacking democracy through phony audits, more jerrymannering, depriving voters of

622
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 2: water at poles. So don't just have the contrast be

623
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 2: Let's have Biden beat Trump run the extremism that we

624
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 2: now know. Therefore, after Dobbs especially, make that trest clear

625
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 2: through every state house race. So I'm alarmed. Like you,

626
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,280
Speaker 2: I feel good about a winning streak once the people

627
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 2: care about democracy start to see the battle as a

628
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 2: state as a state level battle. We've won Kansas, we

629
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: won the Wisconsin Supreme Court race, we won in Ohio,

630
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 2: and that shows you the potential of the pro democracy

631
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 2: majority when it's energized and when it sees a risk

632
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 2: to democracy right in front of it. We have to

633
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,479
Speaker 2: wage that battle and make it clear that that's what's

634
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 2: on in twenty four this November, by the way, in

635
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 2: Virginia as well. And that's why right now, recruit everywhere,

636
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 2: get candidates on these ballots at all levels everywhere, and

637
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 2: gear up, not in mid twenty four, for November twenty four,

638
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 2: start gearing up. Now. If we do all that, I

639
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 2: think we can win. But if we don't do that,

640
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 2: as you're saying, yeah, we are literally the make or

641
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 2: break moment for democracy that we and these little kids

642
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 2: behind me these photos, they'll spend the rest of their

643
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 2: lives digging out from it if we don't succeed the

644
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 2: next couple of years with a real pro democracy strategy

645
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 2: and not just to win a few swing state strategy.

646
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: So, uh so, let me ask you, Let me ask

647
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: you a question about that, because there's a there's a

648
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: there's a threshold issue in in American politics right now,

649
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: so far as it concerns Donald Trump, right, so what

650
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 1: with the American people the body politic and just take

651
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 1: a side party labels writ large, the country does not

652
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: want the Trump Biden rematch.

653
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 2: Do you agree with that? I mean, I think polling

654
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 2: would would suggest that. Yeah.

655
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 1: Now, the Democratic Party nationally right is going to deliver

656
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 1: on their side of the equation in terms of giving

657
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: to the American people a candidate they don't want to

658
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 1: run against, to run against Trump Biden Trump. Now, I'm

659
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 1: gonna say the one thing that drives me more nuts

660
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 1: that anything that's said by any national Democrat is this.

661
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: And it's the idea that they want Trump in the

662
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: general election because he's an easy candidate for Biden to be.

663
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 1: So there's a duality around Trump, right, And there's Trump

664
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: the threat, and I think he is a threat. I

665
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: think he is a threat to the continuity of the

666
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: American Republic. And then there is Trump the prop the

667
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: boogeyman Voldemort. Put Trump's name into the email, you raise money,

668
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 1: Put Trump into the ad, you get ratings. Put Trump

669
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,399
Speaker 1: into the newscast. Right, at least he used to right

670
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: the numbers, The numbers go up. And so I don't

671
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: want to see Trump come forward right into a general

672
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: election because I don't think there's a more irresponsible position

673
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 1: in America or a more delusional one, which is the

674
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: idea that he can't win a general election again, because

675
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: he absolutely can win a general election again. Any any

676
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: do you take any issues with anything, with anything else?

677
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 2: When I say that he knows he's obviously incredibly dangerous,

678
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 2: I think these things are very unpredictable. When I say

679
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 2: that I think he's going to be the candidate. It's

680
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 2: not because I necessarily want that. I just think that

681
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 2: he will, and I don't know, I don't understand that.

682
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 2: And I'm with you, you no, I agree. I mean, you

683
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 2: don't want this man, well, only one ballot away from

684
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 2: being president. And that's a highly risky proposition that I

685
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: think we're all going to be dealing with.

686
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:13,399
Speaker 1: I think I think that fifty years from now, there's

687
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: gonna be all sorts of infrastructure in this country, and

688
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 1: you're gonna look back like we did growing up at

689
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: things that were built during the depression years. When was

690
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 1: that built? I was built in the nineteen thirties, it

691
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 1: was built in the nineteen fifties. You, Joe Biden is

692
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:38,320
Speaker 1: the infrastructure president and then some that people have dreamed

693
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: about for a couple of decades, and his and his

694
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 1: legacy on that front puts him, in my view, on

695
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: the same plane as Eisenhower. I think that he is

696
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 1: the most effective foreign policy president coming out of a

697
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: big ditch since George Herbert Walker Bush. If you look

698
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: at the end of the Cold War, the First Gulf War,

699
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 1: extremely successful. But I'm gonna I'm gonna challenge you on

700
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: a a Biden proposition, and and give you a chance

701
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: to make the make the Biden case. Respond to this argument,

702
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: which is, none of that matters, not a thing. He

703
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: was elected to do one thing, break the extremest threat

704
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 1: to the country and it's still here. Didn't get the

705
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: job done. Therefore, maybe it's time for Gavin Newsom, Maybe

706
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: it's time for Gretchen Whimer, because at the end of

707
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 1: the day, the defense of democracy has not succeeded thus

708
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: far against this maga threat somebody and somebody, and it's

709
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 1: the top guy in the world we used to live

710
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: in is the guy that gets to blame for that.

711
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: Not that he's a criminal, not that he's a bad person,

712
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: but that he fell short. And in fact, this is

713
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: someone who has fallen short doing that while doing all

714
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: of these other great things. But it doesn't mitigate that

715
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 1: on this thing, the threat in fact may be worse.

716
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 2: Let me respond. There have been moments I've been frustrated

717
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 2: about the intensity of the battle for democracy, I think

718
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:01,879
Speaker 2: early on, when I don't think I don't think there

719
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 2: was enough attention to it or sensitivity to it. But

720
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 2: my bigger response out of this, aside from moments of frustration,

721
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 2: is This is not a conventional political battle. This is

722
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 2: a long, much longer term battle. And I don't think

723
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 2: it is the kind of battle you win immediately or

724
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 2: even in one term. This is long, is the this

725
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 2: is the arc of our country. And so I would say,

726
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:30,839
Speaker 2: you know, again, I'm not here to represent Joe Biden,

727
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 2: but I would say that that he did articulate late

728
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 2: in November, late in twenty two the threat, and we

729
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 2: started to see some countercyclical results in terms of some

730
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 2: of the underpinnings of why we've been losing democracy when

731
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 2: we elected those when we did it, defeat at every election,

732
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 2: Denial running for secuar state that in a normal off

733
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 2: year quote unquote off year midterm, we would have lost

734
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 2: those races. But that extremism was exposed. We picked up

735
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 2: the Pennsylvania State House, what it was it double digit seats.

736
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 2: We picked up the midtermer we're supposed to lose. We

737
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 2: pipped up the Michigan State Senate, state House. So we've

738
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 2: won these these special elections. Again, normally you wouldn't win

739
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 2: these when we had the White House. So in the

740
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,280
Speaker 2: long arc, in the battle for democracy, Trump it remains

741
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 2: the threat that he is. We have to defeat him

742
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 2: next November. But what I liked it, we're starting to see,

743
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,479
Speaker 2: and I'm an optimist in the end, despite the dark

744
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 2: topics of my book, which is the democracies under attack

745
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 2: of a threat, we're starting to see some pick up

746
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 2: in the awareness of how we protect democracy. We're starting

747
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 2: to gain some wins like we didn't know how last week,

748
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 2: and in the long arc. I'm feeling a little better

749
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:42,879
Speaker 2: than I was two years ago, because two years ago

750
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 2: we didn't even see these things as a matter. But

751
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 2: I think that there are there some voters who are

752
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 2: thinking what you did, which is I thought voting right

753
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 2: should be more protected over the next Over the last

754
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 2: four years, I thought Jerry man Ering might see an

755
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 2: end that it hasn't. I'm sure there's some frustration, but

756
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 2: I also would say the battle for democracy is a

757
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 2: longer term battle. And I think, as you said, in

758
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 2: fifty years from now, In fifty years from now, we'll

759
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 2: be able to see where the years twenty one, twenty two,

760
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 2: twenty three, and twenty four together, the moment where people

761
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 2: saw Trump saw the state level attack and geared up

762
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 2: in a way that defeated over the coming years, that

763
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,720
Speaker 2: followed this moment a wariness were not. I think it's

764
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 2: a little soon to say, well, someone had a couple

765
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 2: of years to solve it and didn't. I just don't

766
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 2: think the broader battle for democracy is determined on that timeframe,

767
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 2: even though, as we're both saying, we're it's sort of

768
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 2: the inflection point of that battle right now through the

769
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 2: next couple of years.

770
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 1: Here's the thing that I fundamentally feel disoriented about and

771
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: I can't get a handle on. And it's how much

772
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:05,280
Speaker 1: of this is all completely illusory? Oz behind the curtain,

773
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:10,359
Speaker 1: and let me let me ask the get into it

774
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: this way. I'm looking at your kids behind you. I

775
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: am a I'm a girl dad. And I took my

776
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 1: ten year old to the Tailor Swift concert and talking

777
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 1: about it afterwards, and so I saw it in Los Angeles.

778
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: Must have been ninety thousand people sold it out six

779
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: nights in a row. And I said to my wife,

780
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 1: I have never been anywhere with that many women in

781
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: my life, not even close. Easy kind of guess ninety

782
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 1: percent of the crowd female little girls wearing their friendship

783
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: bracelets right, women in their thirties and their twenties. People

784
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: are handing out their French A bracelets to each other.

785
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: Now I have a good sense of how the media

786
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: covers Trump and the ubiquity with which they cover him,

787
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:18,800
Speaker 1: and the attention that the Trump rally gets, as crazy

788
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: as they are, as small as they've become. Now, I

789
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:31,800
Speaker 1: suspect if Donald Trump was selling out stadiums with eighty

790
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: five ninety thousand people all over America going full maga, like,

791
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 1: our level of being freaked out about that would be

792
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 1: incredibly high. Now he's covered like he does do that,

793
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:52,280
Speaker 1: when in fact his world has become pretty small, right

794
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 1: and in terms of the places he goes in the

795
00:50:55,400 --> 00:51:03,919
Speaker 1: crowds he attracts. In essence, certainly, the media doesn't cover

796
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: the world through the prism of the ninety thousand a

797
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: person nightly gathering. We're the friendship bracelets are being handed out.

798
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: They're both real, they're both happening. Violence isn't breaking out

799
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 1: all around us everywhere all the time in America. Normal

800
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:33,720
Speaker 1: people don't and never have like having politics in their face.

801
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: Twenty four seven, and all of the experts and all

802
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 1: of the pollsters have basically been wrong for seven years.

803
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:53,919
Speaker 1: Everything that you're saying anecdotally, well when you look out

804
00:51:53,960 --> 00:52:01,320
Speaker 1: in the country when the test comes at this quiet result,

805
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: and over and over and over again, Americans are saying no.

806
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: And to me, what you can never know, because we're

807
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 1: fifty two. What was the sense of urgency to danger

808
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty nine, in nineteen thirty eight, What did

809
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 1: it feel like the people who were urgently alarmed who

810
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: turned out to be correct? What did the zeitgeist in

811
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 1: the culture feel like? And you just can't know, You

812
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 1: really can't get a handle on it. Say for the

813
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 1: fact that you know that in democracies, people rally towards

814
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:54,439
Speaker 1: facing danger very very late. They move late, but when

815
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:59,359
Speaker 1: they face it, historically, at least in this country, they've

816
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: done so very very very decisively. And so I wonder

817
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: if you think about that, in wonder how much of

818
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 1: what we perceive is the threat in front of us

819
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 1: has already largely dissipated. The prognosticators in Washington just haven't

820
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 1: gotten caught up to it as it works its way out,

821
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: and they just don't pay attention to the actual election

822
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 1: results where these things are worked out already, in places

823
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 1: like Ohio, anything, they're there.

824
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that the other side has

825
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 2: done a very good job of hiding their extremism and

826
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,439
Speaker 2: how it impacts everyday people for a long time. I mean,

827
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 2: but they know it. They know that if fully exposed,

828
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 2: it will cost them elections. And what's happened especially since

829
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 2: Stobbs but Trump did it Marjorie Taylor Green dous. Every

830
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 2: day people are seeing it now in a way they weren't.

831
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 2: And when they see it, they clearly are reacting to

832
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 2: vote against it, either because they're tired of it or

833
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 2: they're scared of it. And that's why, you know, again,

834
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,279
Speaker 2: we should take it seriously, We should run knowing that

835
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:17,280
Speaker 2: if they ever win, the danger of that is horrible.

836
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 2: But now that people are seeing and the post dobs

837
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 2: really matters here, it's not just that they see a

838
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 2: threat to democracy. They're starting to see through things like Dobbs,

839
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 2: but other issues. Well, the reason they're attacking democracy is

840
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 2: to inflict things on my life that not only do

841
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:35,439
Speaker 2: I not agree with, but that will make my life

842
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 2: a lot worse. And once they see the connection between

843
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 2: the attack on democracy, this you know, flirting with authoritarianism,

844
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 2: and the everyday issue like post dobs, that will change

845
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 2: their life because a minority is going to rule over

846
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 2: them on issues they care about. That combination is really

847
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 2: dangerous for their side. And as you see when people

848
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 2: who may not want to engage in the thirty thousand

849
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 2: foot level, you know, conversational on democracy or jerrymandering. See, oh,

850
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 2: the result of that, the result of that issue one

851
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 2: is my own choices in my life where I live

852
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:10,399
Speaker 2: in Ohio. It's that ten year old rape victim being

853
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 2: forced to go to Indiana. That combination is very dangerous

854
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 2: for them. And if we do a good job of

855
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 2: making it clear that that's why they're attacking democracy, that's

856
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 2: what Donald Trump will do in your state, in your community.

857
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 2: That's what you know that state house will do in

858
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 2: your community. That's what I think we we we pile

859
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,239
Speaker 2: together some wins. And the reason, going back to your

860
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 2: point about no labels, the reason I so worry about

861
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 2: them is because that will interfere. I believe with the

862
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 2: potential of a majority finally coming together next year and

863
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 2: saying we're done with all this, and the danger they're

864
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 2: bringing is a disruption of something. And I hope, you know,

865
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 2: I hope, and I think if we all do everything right,

866
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:56,960
Speaker 2: that we can finally say, you know, the hell with

867
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 2: this Trump stuff, and the hell with the extremism all

868
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 2: the way down the state level issue where they're atacking democracy,

869
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,359
Speaker 2: and and so anything that gets in the way, I think,

870
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 2: which is some momentum in a little winning streak that's

871
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 2: building in more quiet elections that could really come through

872
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:14,719
Speaker 2: in a big election, is a threat. And that's why

873
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,400
Speaker 2: I agree with you. But the threat that is that

874
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 2: what otherwise could be a nice winning streat for democracy

875
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 2: that we're building and seeing happening right.

876
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 1: Now, that that coalition which which you're referencing is a

877
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:32,839
Speaker 1: coalition and its component parts right, its largest part will

878
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:38,839
Speaker 1: be Democrats, its second largest element will be independents, and

879
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 1: it's and its third largest element, sizable and very important

880
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 1: one will be disaffected Republicans who you need to be

881
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:52,840
Speaker 1: part of the coalition. We're running out of time here.

882
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:55,239
Speaker 1: Let me let me give you the last pitch here,

883
00:56:55,440 --> 00:57:00,040
Speaker 1: make the pitch right that that you would like to see,

884
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 1: you know, made out of the White House, out of

885
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 1: the National Democratic Party to Americans that tells them to

886
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 1: come together into a coalition. I mean, the one thing

887
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:21,000
Speaker 1: that we have not heard in seven years is basically

888
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 1: someone from the Democratic Party I think very directly saying

889
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 1: I don't care you're a Democrat, you're an independent, you're

890
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 1: a Republican. I'm talking to you today as an American.

891
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 2: Right, I mean what I would say. I'll do my

892
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 2: best at this, but I think one side has clearly

893
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 2: lost its way, and it is caught up in a

894
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 2: very fringe approach to almost everything in American society day

895
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 2: that most people just do not agree with. They sometimes

896
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 2: hide it well, but we see it playing out in Florida.

897
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 2: We see it play out with a ten year old

898
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 2: rape victim being sent to Indiana because they passed something

899
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 2: here that only ten percent of fewer of Ohioans agree with.

900
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 2: And that side understands that its viewpoint is actually deeply unpopular.

901
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 2: And the reason we keep running into things like issue

902
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 2: on or Jerrymainering is because they're trying to keep in

903
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 2: place policies that would never sustain broad the broad majority

904
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 2: consensus of as you say, Republicans, Independence, and Democrats in Ohio.

905
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 2: And so I think what Democrats need to pitch on

906
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 2: is going to back for a middle class of middle

907
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 2: class based economics that lifts people all over states like Ohio,

908
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 2: not the narrow one we see from the other side

909
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 2: a belief in certain public institutions like public schools that

910
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 2: I don't care if you're in your rural or you're

911
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:51,040
Speaker 2: in urban Ohio. These are the centers of our communities.

912
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 2: Let's lift them. So. I think there's a broad common

913
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 2: agreement on most of where America needs to go. One

914
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:02,120
Speaker 2: side doesn't agree with that viewpoint, that's why they're trying

915
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:04,919
Speaker 2: to suppress democracy, and the other side, I think needs

916
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:06,920
Speaker 2: to do a much better job of bringing everyone together

917
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 2: around those issues. I think remove a lot of the

918
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 2: crazy stuff. I think that Joe Biden, as you said,

919
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 2: has done a very good job on most of those issues.

920
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 2: I think his state of the State of the Union

921
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 2: speech actually weave them together very well. And I think

922
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 2: in the coming year, the assignment is to take those

923
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 2: elements of that common sort of fabric of what we

924
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 2: want to get done and to make sure we're talking

925
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:32,920
Speaker 2: about it well, we're talking about it all parts of

926
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 2: this country, and we're exposing that the other side doesn't

927
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 2: agree with them. Was any of those things, and most

928
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 2: of that agenda on the other side is something that

929
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:43,960
Speaker 2: at best thirty five percent agree on, and in many

930
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 2: cases far less and the reason why we see them

931
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:50,400
Speaker 2: always rigging the rules of democracy is because they know

932
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 2: that and they know they would lose if we have

933
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:55,920
Speaker 2: a straight up vote on what we want to do

934
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 2: versus what they want to do.

935
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 1: Well, we'll leave it there, David Pepper, thank you very

936
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 1: very much for taking the time this afternoon. Wise words

937
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:11,320
Speaker 1: and great counsel for everybody listening. American democracy is under threat.

938
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 1: It is not self sustaining. We're approaching the two hundred

939
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 1: and fiftieth anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. It's a

940
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 1: momentous achievement and one that will require this generation of

941
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 1: Americans to recommit to a sense of duty, obligation, and

942
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 1: responsibility and also common sense. You know, I tell my

943
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 1: kids this, someone will always be in charge. And in

944
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 1: the case of a state like Ohio, if you give

945
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 1: away the right to write your future, the people who

946
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 1: take it may not have your best interest at heart,

947
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 1: but rest assured somebody will take it. You show indifference

948
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:03,240
Speaker 1: towards who's running things. People take advantage of it every

949
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:07,000
Speaker 1: every time. One of the central lessons of history and

950
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:11,360
Speaker 1: and one of the real dangers in the democracy.

951
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:18,560
Speaker 2: M m hmmmm, h m h m hmmm.