1 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: It was almost like a cold case investigation inside of 2 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: a cold case investigation, and it took on the life 3 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: of its own. 4 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty two, two bodies were found almost right 5 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 2: next to each other. No one knew who these people 6 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 2: were or how they ended up dead in the same location. 7 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: Would finding the identity of one victim lead them to 8 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 2: the other. For nearly forty years, investigators tried everything to 9 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 2: hunt down their names and find out what happened to them. 10 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 2: This is America's crime Lab. I'm Alan Lance Lesser, I'm 11 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 2: here with the producers, Catherine Fanlosa, and I gotta say, 12 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 2: this seems like a little different from other cases we've 13 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 2: talked about. What's the story? 14 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, So this all starts in Moss Pointe, Mississippi. And 15 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 3: Moss Point is between BILEXI and Mobile, Alabama, and it's 16 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 3: right down by the Gulf. 17 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 4: Now. 18 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 3: One morning in early December of nineteen eighty two, a 19 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,559 Speaker 3: truck driver is driving along a major interstate there, which 20 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 3: is the I ten, And that I ten runs all 21 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 3: the way from Florida to California. 22 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: Okay, I can picture it. 23 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 3: The highway goes over these different tributaries which ultimately flow 24 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 3: into the Gulf, and on this day, the trucker is 25 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 3: driving along and he glances out his window and he 26 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 3: thinks he sees the body of a woman floating in 27 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 3: the water. He gets to the next rest stop and 28 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 3: he pulls over and calls the police and he tells them, listen, 29 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 3: I saw what I think is a woman in a 30 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 3: plaid shirt and jeans floating in the water. So the 31 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 3: police send out an officer and he can't find the woman. 32 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 3: Oh spooky, yeah, definitely. I wanted to find out more 33 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 3: so I called the Jackson County Sheriff's Department and spoke 34 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 3: to Sergeant Eddie Clark. 35 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 4: He stopped his troll car started looking and saying what 36 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 4: he thought was a baby doll. 37 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 5: In the water. 38 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 3: A baby doll, Yeah, that's what the officer thought he saw. 39 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 3: But looking more closely, it's actually the body of a 40 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 3: little girl, and she's caught in the brush in this 41 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 3: swampy area along the side of the river. She has 42 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 3: blonde hair, and authorities determined she's probably about eighteen months old. 43 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 3: They do an autopsy and it shows that she was 44 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 3: alive when she entered the water and that she died 45 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 3: from drowning. 46 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 2: Can they tell how long she'd been in the river. 47 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 3: It wasn't long. They think, maybe only a day or two. 48 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: So if this was a drowning death, I guess it 49 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 2: could have been an accident. But if it was, you'd 50 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: also think someone would be out looking for her. 51 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 3: I was curious about that. Chief Deputy Randy Muffley says, 52 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 3: investigators at the time check their records and as far. 53 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 6: As we know, there were no reports of any missing 54 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 6: persians or children from this area. 55 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 3: So the police go back a few days later with 56 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 3: divers and they're searching this area where they found the 57 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 3: little girl looking for any type of clue, and they 58 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 3: go a little farther down the river and they find 59 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 3: another body. 60 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 6: They were searching the river for a female and come 61 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 6: across the skeletal remains of well later on as a. 62 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 3: Black malk and it's a young man. He's clearly bit 63 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 3: in the water for a little bit longer. He is 64 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 3: wearing all of his clothes, but he's pretty much a. 65 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 2: Skeleton at this point. Oh wow, So based on that timeline, 66 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: maybe these are two separate events, like maybe someone is 67 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: dumping bodies there or drowning people there. And also at 68 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 2: this point we've heard about a sighting of a woman 69 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 2: in a plaid shirt. We've found a little child only 70 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 2: eighteen months old, and now we've found essentially a skeleton 71 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 2: of a man. This is already different from some of 72 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 2: the other cases we've talked about. 73 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 3: So police have two mysterious deaths and no clothes. But 74 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 3: you know, there's also the question of the initial call 75 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 3: that came in about a woman who hasn't been discovered. 76 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 3: So the little girl comes to be known as both 77 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 3: Baby Jane and Delta de and her case gets a 78 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 3: lot of publicity, right, I mean, it makes sense because 79 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 3: it's a little girl, she's only been in the water 80 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 3: a day or two before she's found, and people are 81 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,119 Speaker 3: obviously desperately looking for her mother or father. 82 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 4: The Sheriff's office started getting calls saying that they had 83 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 4: seen a white female walking down the interstate with a child. 84 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 5: With no shoes on, and the female was a straw crime. 85 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 4: They said they had pulled over and tried to assist her, 86 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 4: and she wouldn't take any help from anybody and just 87 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 4: kept walking. 88 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 3: You know, this highway has just recently been completed, and 89 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 3: so there are a lot of truckers going back and 90 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 3: forth and there's like chatter on the CBE radio, so 91 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 3: police are able to confirm, yes, there were sightings of 92 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 3: a woman with a toddler around this time, So. 93 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 2: It almost sounds like it could have been I don't know, 94 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 2: if she's so distraught, like a murder suicide where she 95 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 2: takes maybe her child to the river and kills herself 96 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 2: and takes her child with her, or maybe there's some 97 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 2: other murderer who followed her there that she was in 98 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 2: conflict with. 99 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 3: They put this information out there and basically they get nothing. 100 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 3: They're hoping like some family member will say, oh my gosh, 101 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 3: you know my cousin went missing, or we've been looking 102 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 3: for her and her little girl. Nothing nothing turns up. 103 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 5: Huh. 104 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 2: And that's so weird to me too, because when there's 105 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 2: a little child like that in the picture, it's just 106 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 2: that much less likely that this woman is some kind 107 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 2: of nomadic person who's moving all over the place all 108 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: the time, or has no personal connections or is totally 109 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 2: isolated like so often when you have a little child, 110 00:06:55,120 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 2: you have a community or family or something that's confusing, 111 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 2: so that case goes cold. Oh come on, Catherine, not 112 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 2: another one. 113 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: I know. 114 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 3: I'm sorry the local community raises money and they hold 115 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 3: a funeral and they bury her. I Meanwhile, there's not 116 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 3: the same publicity for the man whose body is found. 117 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 3: They don't get any calls, there's no missing person reports. 118 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 3: They really have nothing to even begin to go on 119 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 3: with that case. And that case goes cold. Now the 120 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 3: two cases take very different paths. Over the years, Detectives 121 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 3: return to the little girl's case over and over again. 122 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 3: At one point, they exhume her body. They take tissue 123 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 3: samples and run the DNA through codis with no hits. 124 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 3: A few years later, they make a facial reconstruction of 125 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 3: what she may have looked like, and they release that 126 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 3: photo to the public and Allen in the photo, I mean, 127 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 3: she's just so very sweet looking. She has these sort 128 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 3: of soft blonde curls that just brush her shoulder. She's 129 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 3: a cute little nose, and she's wearing this pink gingham 130 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 3: top with white ruffled sleeves. And there are three little 131 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 3: flowers they almost look like they're embroidered just across the 132 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 3: front of her top. 133 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: I can picture it. That's so sweet. I mean, someone 134 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: must be missing her. 135 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 3: They circulate the picture, they put it on social media. 136 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 3: They're just hoping someone will come forward with information that 137 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 3: also goes nowhere. And then in twenty nineteen, the case 138 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 3: is reopened and it's kind of a coincidence. So there 139 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 3: are two officers in the Jackson County Sheriff's Office and 140 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 3: one of them his name is Sergeant Eddie Clark, and 141 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 3: he has just done his own DNA. 142 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: To find out his background. 143 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was actually me and a friend of mine 144 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 4: who were arguain and we did. 145 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 5: It together and see who was a bigger mutt. I 146 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 5: guess you could call it. 147 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 4: But when I did it, it showed me like fifteen 148 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 4: hundred people. 149 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 5: I had no clue to these people. I have a huge. 150 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 4: Family here, but I had never heard of these people, 151 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 4: and it just floored me. 152 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 3: He turns to one of his colleagues, Chief Deputy Randy Muffley. 153 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 6: And you approached me one day, it said, can we 154 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 6: do this with the Baby Jane case? Because we had 155 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 6: tissue samples from an exclamation from a few years back BINGO. 156 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 3: And this case was kind of personal for Sergeant Clark 157 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 3: because he actually grew up swimming in that same river 158 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 3: and he was thirteen when her body was discovered. 159 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 5: I remember how horrible. It was that that baby, poor baby, 160 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 5: not only was killed. 161 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 4: That she lost everything, her name, everything, she had nothing. 162 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, so they actually find out about Authorm and they 163 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 3: learned that yes, this is possible, but they need to 164 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 3: come up with money to have the DNA and the 165 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 3: forensic genetic genealogy done. 166 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 2: The age old struggle and one. 167 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 3: Day they get a phone call from a woman in 168 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 3: New York and she's got an offer. 169 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 6: Oh so she had read about it and she wanted 170 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 6: to know what she could do to help. 171 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 4: I had an idea that if we could locate some 172 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 4: family at leads, at a bare minimum, we could get 173 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 4: the baby's name back. Yeah, we got a lot more 174 00:10:44,600 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 4: than what we actually thought we was gonna get. 175 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 2: So this woman in New York, a stranger, calls the 176 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 2: officers in Mississippi and says she wants to help identify 177 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 2: baby Jane. 178 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of wild, right, So she pays for 179 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 3: the DNA testing and an officer from the Jackson County 180 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 3: Sheriff's Office packs Baby Jane's remains in dry ice in 181 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 3: a cooler and he drives them from Mississippi eight hours 182 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 3: to Authram in Texas. Aylen, remember when police searched the 183 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 3: river after discovering the little girl's body. They didn't find 184 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 3: a woman like the truck driver reported having seen, but 185 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 3: they did find the body of a young black man. 186 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I do think it's telling that she got 187 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 2: so much more attention. Unfortunately, I think that happens too 188 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 2: often in our society, where one victim gets a lot 189 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 2: more attention than another whose death is equally as tragic. 190 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 3: And that's actually something that comes up later in the investigation, 191 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 3: which I'll get to in a minute. But first, police 192 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 3: think he's been in the water a lot longer than 193 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 3: the girl, and if it's possible, authorities knew even less 194 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 3: about Moss Point John Doe then they did about Baby Jean, 195 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,599 Speaker 3: but they did know he was a homicide victim. 196 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: I could tell he had been shot in the head. 197 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: He was dumped off the bridge where they found him below, 198 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: and he still had clothing. He was almost complete, which 199 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: is usually unheard of. But I'll believe water had covered him, 200 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: which kept a lot of animals from getting to him 201 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: and basically dragging Bunes off into the woods. 202 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 3: Darren Forsaga is a lieutenant with the Pascaluga Police Department 203 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 3: in Mississippi. And he basically stumbled upon this case while 204 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 3: researching a completely different cold case, so it's a bit 205 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 3: of a story. But in twenty twelve, he's looking into 206 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 3: the death of a teenage girl and he tracks her 207 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 3: remains down in Oklahoma. So he's on the phone with 208 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 3: an official at the Oklahoma Medical Examiner's office. 209 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: She says, look, we've got five other cases that belonged 210 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: to Mississippi, and I went, what, why would you have 211 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: Mississippi cases? 212 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 3: And it turns out at the time that Mississippi didn't 213 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 3: have a forensic anthropologist, so they sent some human remains 214 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 3: to Oklahoma and that included Moss Point John Doe. 215 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: None of these were being tested, which again about what 216 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: are we doing. We're dropping the ball here. We've got 217 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: all these such remains all over the country that belong 218 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: to Mississippi and none of them are being tested. When 219 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: DNA is out there now and we should be able 220 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: to identify some of these people. And so that became 221 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: a whole new task. It was almost like a cold 222 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 1: case investigation inside of a cold case investigation. 223 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 3: So he starts looking into Moss Point John Doe. He 224 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 3: gets photos from the Medical examiner and he puts what 225 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 3: little information there is into a file and then. 226 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: I take it to the Jackson County Shrif's department to 227 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 1: turn it over to them and say, look, found this case. 228 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 1: They didn't know anything about it, they didn't remember it. 229 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 3: So the file on Moss Point John Doe goes back 230 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 3: to Jackson County, which is where he was found, and 231 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 3: Lieutenant Versaga goes back to his own cases. You know, 232 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 3: he checks in from time to time, hoping they've made progress, 233 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 3: but nothing happens, and he can't get this case off 234 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 3: of his mind. I mean, at first, he's thinking this 235 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 3: will end up being like a lot of other unidentified 236 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 3: human remains cases that he's worked. 237 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: They were transient, or they had been involved in drugs, 238 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: or they had some mental conditions, and the family knew 239 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: they were traveling, and so I just assumed, maybe this 240 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: is what happened to this set, is that he was 241 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: never reported missing, and that was not true. 242 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 3: Lieutenant Forsaga decides to enter Moss Point John Doe's information 243 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 3: into NEMOUS, the National Database for Missing and Unidentified Persons. 244 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 3: Then the FBI has an artist create a picture of 245 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 3: what this man may have looked like. 246 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: And I thought, man, this is going to be great. 247 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to be able to put him out online. 248 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: Now we're going to find out who he is. I 249 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: took it to every African American barber shop, every African 250 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: American neighborhood, I put up flyers, I did everything. 251 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 3: And he gets some pushback. It turns out that everyone 252 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 3: remembers the little girl that was found in the river, 253 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 3: but no one knew a young black man had been 254 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 3: found too. 255 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: One of the guys goes, why wouldn't this in publicized? 256 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: And I said, I can't tell you that, because yes 257 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: you can. You know it's not go why And I said, okay, 258 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: because he was black? And they said absolutely. 259 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 3: Finally someone says, I think we should try AUTHORM. So 260 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 3: both Baby Jane and Moss Point John Doe's remains are 261 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 3: sent to Authorm around the same time, and the lab 262 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 3: is able to start on Baby Jane's remains pretty quickly. 263 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 3: But there's a problem when it comes to moss Point 264 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 3: John Doe. His body had been in the water for 265 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 3: months and something else had happened so earlier. When a 266 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:30,479 Speaker 3: medical examiner tried to learn John Doe's age and biographical ancestry, 267 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 3: they treated the remains with heat and chemicals, and to 268 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 3: be fair, that's important for being able to actually do 269 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 3: the forensic anthropology work. 270 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 7: What heat and detergents do to DNA is a different story. 271 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 7: It's not helpful, it's harmful. And so we came to 272 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 7: realize that there were these processes that were preventing our 273 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 7: hindering authoram's ability to build a profile. And so this 274 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 7: is one of the cases that initially we look at 275 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 7: and we say, sorry, we are not able to work 276 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 7: this case. 277 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 3: Colby Lasion is chief of staff at AUTHRAM, and he says, 278 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 3: sometimes in tough cases, they'll research a solution where they 279 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 3: simulate the circumstances of the remains until they find a 280 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 3: way to successfully extract DNA and moss Point John Doe 281 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 3: was one of those cases. 282 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 2: That's pretty cool. So it's a real case study. And 283 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 2: I imagine if they can figure out how to test 284 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,959 Speaker 2: his remains, they'll be able to use that same method 285 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 2: on other remains which have been exposed to similar conditions. 286 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, and in talking to everyone at AUTHRAM, it really 287 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 3: became a mission to identify both cases. You know, not 288 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,479 Speaker 3: just the little girl who got like a ton of 289 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 3: media attention, but the young black man who basically fell 290 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 3: through the cracks. 291 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 7: This was a man who was murdered. He had family 292 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 7: looking for him, in the same way that Delta Dawn 293 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 7: had family looking for her, and so it was important 294 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 7: for us to show and provide that equitable justice in 295 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 7: both of these cases. 296 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 2: So with Delta Don's case or Baby Jane, it's easier 297 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 2: for AUTHORM to work with her remains and do the 298 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 2: forensic genetic genealogy. What do they find out? 299 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 3: Authoram's able to build a DNA profile and that leads 300 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 3: them to possible family members. One name that AUTHORAM gives 301 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 3: detectives in Mississippi is the name of possibly this little 302 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 3: girl's mother or aunt. 303 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 2: That's huge. 304 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 3: So authorities track down this woman. They figure out she's 305 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 3: in Missouri, and they work with a local FBI agent 306 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 3: and one day he goes and knocks on her door 307 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 3: totally unannounced. 308 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 6: As soon as they showed up at the door, please 309 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 6: tell me you found my sister. 310 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 2: Oh so it Oh so it's actually her sister. I 311 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 2: just got chills. No, is it her twin? Stop? 312 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 5: What sister? 313 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 6: It's like you know she went missing in nineteen eighty 314 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 6: two with her daughter. They never seen them. 315 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 8: Since I literally have goosebumps. 316 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 3: So it turns out that this woman in Missouri had 317 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 3: been looking for her sister for decades. Her sister's name 318 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 3: is Gwendolen, and in nineteen eighty two, Gwendolen spent Thanksgiving 319 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 3: with their family. Gwendolen was twenty three and she tells 320 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 3: everyone that she and her little girl were moving from 321 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 3: Missouri to Florida with a new boyfriend. 322 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 4: Her boyfriend he was former law enforcement and also a 323 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 4: dog groomer, and I think he was going to start 324 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 4: a dog grooming business somewhere in Florida. 325 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 3: They moved, and no one's heard from Gwendolen since. 326 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 2: So when the FBI agent shows up, this woman is 327 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 2: thinking they've finally found her sister, Gwendolen, but actually they've 328 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 2: maybe found her sister's baby, so my murder suicide theory 329 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 2: could still be accurate. 330 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 3: Officers get a DNA swab from the potential aunt and 331 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 3: they send that back to AUTHROM for testing. Later on, 332 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 3: Chief Deputy Muffley and Sergeant Clark go to interview her 333 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 3: and Allen. While they're there, they actually get the results 334 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 3: of the DNA test and it confirms that she is 335 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 3: the aunt of the little girl found in the river 336 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 3: back in nineteen eighty two. 337 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 4: That was overwhelming. They were upset. They actually believe the 338 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:56,959 Speaker 4: baby was still alive. 339 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 3: The little girl's name was Alicia Heinrich. She was found 340 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 3: in the river just ten days after the family last 341 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 3: saw her on Thanksgiving. She was just eighteen months old. 342 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 2: And do we know anything about Gwendolen her mother. 343 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 4: She was a small person, but they said she had 344 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 4: a mouth like alligator. She jumped on the grisly bearry 345 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 4: just like dynadmite, just go off like that. 346 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 3: But her sister said that Gwendolen was a good mom 347 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 3: and that she loved her little girl. 348 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 4: She was adamant that she loved that baby. She showed 349 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 4: us the letter saying where she had met this new guy, was. 350 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 5: In love with him. 351 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 4: I think the baby's father had been in prison several times, 352 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 4: and I think she had a rough relationship with him. 353 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 5: But this new guy, she. 354 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 4: Was blowing abiding, you know, in love with him, and 355 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 4: I think she wanted to start a new life with 356 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 4: him and the baby. 357 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 3: Now the story gets even stranger. So a short while 358 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 3: after Gwendolen, her baby and the boyfriend left for Florida, 359 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 3: the boyfriend returned to Missouri alone. 360 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 4: Gwen's father had tracked him down, wondering where's my daughter, 361 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 4: where's my granddaughter. He gives them a story of well, 362 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 4: I drove them to Kansas City and dropped them off 363 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 4: with a millionaire and they're living on a yacht in 364 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 4: Florida right now. 365 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 2: So he's claiming she's with a different man now. 366 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, bizarre right. Gwendolen's family even got a few phone 367 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 3: calls from a man claiming to be the new guy. 368 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 4: The family did receive phone calls from a male saying 369 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 4: that him and Gwynn was together, that they had had 370 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 4: another child or boy, and that when and the baby 371 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 4: at Licia were doing fine. 372 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 5: That he had found their number in Gwynn's. 373 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 4: Bible and had called just to let them know that 374 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 4: they were okay and everything. 375 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 5: He's going to go just she doesn't want any contact 376 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 5: with y'all. 377 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 8: Now. 378 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,919 Speaker 3: Before Authuram helped identify the little girl and authorities learned 379 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 3: this whole backstory, Ailen, they were sort of like you. 380 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 3: I mean, they suspected a murder suicide. You know, maybe 381 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 3: Gwendolen was upset walking down that highway in Mississippi in 382 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 3: the middle of the night, and she threw her baby 383 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 3: off the bridge, and then maybe she jumped off too. 384 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 3: But you know, authorities never found her body. But now 385 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 3: everyone's starting to doubt this whole thing. I mean, maybe 386 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 3: the boyfriend made up this story about the yacht and 387 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 3: the new guy. So Sergeant Clark and Chief Deputy Moufley, 388 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 3: they actually traced the boyfriend to Texas, but unfortunately he 389 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 3: had already passed away. 390 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 2: But that truck driver did see a female body floating 391 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 2: in the river, at least as he remembers it. So 392 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 2: I wonder if her body was just never found but 393 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 2: she did die. 394 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 3: I asked Sergeant Clark what surprised him most about this case. 395 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 4: I think the biggest thing that shocked me. And then 396 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 4: she was never reported missing her on the way to 397 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 4: local authorities, so there would have been no way they'd 398 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 4: have been found without the help of Outram that would 399 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 4: have never ever been named. 400 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 3: Gwendolen Clemens is still an active missing person's case. 401 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 2: What about the man whose remains were found in the 402 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 2: same river. 403 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 3: Authorn kept working with sample remains that were exposed to 404 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 3: similar chemicals and heat, and they finally reached back out 405 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 3: to authorities to say, look, we're ready to work on 406 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 3: moss Point John Doe's case. 407 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 7: We were to build a profile, and ultimately this profile 408 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 7: led back to relatives of a man named Gary Simpson. 409 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 3: Gary was one of five kids raised in a really 410 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 3: tight knit family in New Orleans. I spoke with his 411 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 3: younger sister, Tanya Taylor. 412 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 9: He still go down all these years as the best 413 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 9: in the most favorite brother. If you look at all 414 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 9: of our family photos, he'd the only one took time 415 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 9: with me. He would be holding me on all of 416 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 9: the photos because a lot of the other ones thought 417 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 9: I was just too spoiled. But we were always very, 418 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 9: very close. 419 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 3: The family loved to play cards together, listen to music, 420 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 3: and dance. 421 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 9: He was an awful dancer, but you couldn't tell him that. 422 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 9: And he used to do a dance where he would 423 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 9: put this hand in his mouth and just be looking 424 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 9: like he from the sixties, these little crazy dances. But 425 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 9: that was like his signature dance. He thought he was 426 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 9: John Chavota And I'm telling you, we don't dance like that, 427 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 9: but he did. 428 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,719 Speaker 2: He sounds like the life of the party. Does Tanya 429 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: have any idea how he ended up murdered? 430 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 3: So she says Gary was twenty and he had recently 431 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 3: moved out of the family's house and just like around 432 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 3: the corner with a girlfriend. This was a month or 433 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 3: two before he vanished. And one day the girlfriend shows up. 434 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 9: I was there. 435 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 3: She came there hysterical, and his girlfriend said something bad 436 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 3: had happened. 437 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 9: And she was like, they came and picked him up. 438 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 9: Some guys came and got him from the house. That 439 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 9: was one. 440 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 3: Story, Tanya says. The girlfriend then changed her story, and 441 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 3: then she says, you know, Gary had gone to buy 442 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 3: her cigarettes and he just never came home. 443 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,360 Speaker 9: Because I always remember her saying he had on some 444 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 9: corduroy shorts and like a wife beater T shirt. That's 445 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 9: not how they found him. So honestly, I don't know 446 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 9: whether she was telling us the truth or she had 447 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 9: something to do with it. 448 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 3: Tanya says Gary was a mama's boy. He was always 449 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 3: in touch with the family, so it was really worrying 450 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 3: when no one could find him. 451 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 9: My mom went to the police station and felt out 452 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 9: a missing report. I do remember how people were sending 453 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 9: her on a wild ghost chase. My mother didn't drive 454 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 9: what my father did, and I remember people saying, who 455 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 9: we just saw him he was at this bar it 456 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 9: was called the Jolly Spot, and my parents would go 457 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 9: there and he wouldn't be there. Then it was rumored 458 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 9: that he was in Houston, Texas, so we had relatives 459 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 9: there and my mama was sending people to look for him. 460 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 3: This went on for years. 461 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 2: That must be so frustrating to keep not getting answers. 462 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 9: It was never like our mother said, don't talk about him. 463 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,719 Speaker 9: It was just kind of understood that we never We 464 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 9: never talked about him. I mean, part of it about 465 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 9: to make me cry, because I do remember like one 466 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 9: day you have a brother, and the next day and 467 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 9: I ain't gonna even say the next day after that, 468 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 9: you can't say nothing about him, even at good times 469 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 9: or the bad times. 470 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 2: We just never had a conversation. 471 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 3: Tanya was only about ten years old when Gary disappeared. 472 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 9: I couldn't understand, like when people die, everybody have a funeral, 473 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 9: Like why we just couldn't have a funeral for him 474 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 9: if he was dead. And I think that's what my 475 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,959 Speaker 9: mother held on to, the fact that it was he 476 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 9: was coming home, like he just was lost, you know, 477 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 9: or something happened to him when he didn't have his 478 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 9: memory anymore, or something like that. So she still had 479 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 9: a lot of hope that her son would come home. 480 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 9: It really became depressing, especially for my mom, and you know, 481 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 9: she diing, not knowing what happened to her son. 482 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 3: And then one day she got a call from her 483 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 3: older sister. 484 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 9: He said, these people contacted me and said they think 485 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 9: they found Gary, and oh my god, it just stirred 486 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,479 Speaker 9: up everything. And I was like, what you mean, And 487 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 9: I said he living, and she said, no, he not living. 488 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 9: And so it just brought up those old wounds. 489 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 2: So now do we know what happened to Gary. 490 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 3: It's still a mystery. I mean, authorities know he was shot. 491 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 3: Tanya believes maybe her brother was kidnapped because he didn't 492 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 3: drive and he didn't know anyone in Moss Pointe, Mississippi, 493 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 3: where his body was found, so she's wondering how he 494 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 3: even got there. Lieutenant Versaga thinks Gary may have actually 495 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 3: been murdered by Sam Little, who's known as the most 496 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 3: prolific serial killer in US history. Sam Little confessed to 497 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 3: ninety three murders and he was known to abduct victims 498 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 3: in the New Orleans area around this time. So, you know, 499 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 3: maybe Gary had a run in with sam Little and 500 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 3: he was driven out to Mississippi where he was shot 501 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 3: and pushed over the bridge and into the water. But 502 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 3: I'm not sure if we'll ever know. It's still an 503 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 3: open murder investigation. Now i'd like to say that that's 504 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 3: the end of the story, but once Gary's identity was known, 505 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 3: his story kind of got lost again. 506 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 2: That makes me so sad. It's like he's being victimized 507 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 2: over and over again. 508 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, Lieutenant Versaga comes to find out that Gary's body 509 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 3: wasn't returned to Tanya. I mean, it was still sitting 510 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 3: at the Mississippi Medical Examiner's office, and. 511 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: I said, what the hell, and we need to get 512 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: him back. 513 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 3: Gary's family decided to cremate and bury him with his 514 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 3: mother in New Orleans, but they weren't in a position 515 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 3: to pay for the cremation. So one morning, Lieutenant Versaga 516 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 3: goes to have coffee with some friends who are retired 517 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 3: policemen and he tells them all about Gary. 518 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: Hey, man, can we pitch in and help this family out? 519 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: And let's get Gary cremated so we can get him home. 520 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: And I'm going to just start throwing money up on 521 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: the type. And before I got out of there, I 522 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: had enough to get him cremated, and so that's what 523 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: we did. 524 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 3: He ends up breezing about eight hundred dollars, and after 525 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 3: the Cremetionian he took Gary's urn with the ashes back 526 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 3: to his morning coffee group. 527 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: He was with us while we drank coffee and we 528 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: ate breakfast, and we talked about Gary, and each one 529 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: of them put your hand on the urn as I 530 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: was leaving to take him home, and that was just 531 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: a very moving thing. I would swear some of them 532 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: guys teared up a little bit, but they would never 533 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: be too much over to admit it. But I did, 534 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: and I'm not too much out to admit it. I 535 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: was so connected that it was almost like I'm bringing 536 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: my brother home. 537 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 3: And then he and his wife drove Gary's ashes to 538 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 3: New Orleans to meet with Tanya and her siblings to 539 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 3: bring Gary home. 540 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: And the way I put it is, last time Gary 541 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: was in Mississippi, somebody didn't treat him so nice. They 542 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: killed him and threw him off a bridge. And so 543 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: this way, this is a way to make bring back 544 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: some dignity to humanity for that, and so that's what 545 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: we did. 546 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 3: Tanya says, she's relieved. 547 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 9: It's painful when, especially when you meet new people and 548 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 9: they're asking you if you have any sisters or brothers, 549 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 9: and you always have to explain, I have a brother 550 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 9: that's missing. How long has it been missing? 551 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: Oh? 552 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 9: Forty years? 553 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 5: You know. 554 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 9: It's like you at the point that you can feel 555 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 9: much better saying you know that he was kidnapped and 556 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 9: killed and body found. 557 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 2: It's incredible how for these families there is peace in 558 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 2: knowing what happened to their loved one, even if that 559 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 2: answer comes decades later, And for victims there's a dignity 560 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 2: in getting their identity back. It does make you wonder 561 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 2: though if pretty soon the whole idea of there being 562 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 2: a John Doe or a baby Jane will become obsolete. 563 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, when you think about it, I mean, it shouldn't 564 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 3: matter how someone dies, or where or when their remains 565 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:17,360 Speaker 3: are discovered, or especially like what attention their death attracted 566 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 3: in the press. All of these cases deserve to be solved. 567 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 2: America's Crime Lab is produced by Rococo Punch for Kaleidoscope. 568 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 2: Erica Lance is our story editor, and sound design is 569 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 2: by David Woji. Our producing team is Catherine Fenalosa Emily 570 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 2: Foreman and Jessica albert Our. Executive producers are Kate Osborne, 571 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 2: Mangesh Hadigadour and David and Kristin Middleman, and from iHeart 572 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 2: Katrina Norvell and Ali Perry. Special thanks to Connell Byrne, 573 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 2: Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman, Nikki Etoor, Nathani Hosky, John Burbank, 574 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 2: and the entire team at OTHRM. I'm Alan Lance Lessor. 575 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.