WEBVTT - From the Vault: The Fall of Valerian, Part 2 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:08.560 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:09.760 is Robert Lamb. 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:12.760 And I'm Joe McCormick. It's Saturday, and so we are 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:15.280 going into the vault for an older episode of the show. 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:19.080 This one originally published on July twenty first, twenty twenty two, 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:22.440 and it's The Fall of Valerian, Part two, continuing from 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:27.480 last Saturday. Enjoy. 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:35.560 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:40.120 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:41.240 is Robert Lamb. 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:44.120 And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:47.760 of our series on the Fall of Valerian. Rob, can 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:49.600 you cutch us up? But of course, if you haven't 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:51.760 heard part one yet, you should go back and listen 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:54.400 to that first. But if you, assuming you have, Rob, 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:55.840 can you do a brief refresher? 0:00:56.200 --> 0:01:00.080 Yeah, yeah, I'll refresh everybody on the basics here. So 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:02.639 when are we well? We are during This is all 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:06.160 taking place during the Crisis of the Third Century. This 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:09.040 was a period between two thirty five and two eighty 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:13.640 four CE in which the Roman Empire is facing all 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:19.720 sorts of internal problems just about following apart lots of warfare, 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:23.960 between different would be emperors. There's there's almost an emperor 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:28.959 every year during this period. Meanwhile, in Persia we have 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:35.120 the strong and united Sasanian Empire. And so in the 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:38.200 last episode, we talked about the background, especially on the 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:44.000 Sasanian Empire, background on how Rome reaches this state, why 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:46.160 it's in such crisis, and who some of the major 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:50.040 players are, and what some of the short imperial reigns 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:55.120 consisted of. And so the key conflict though that the 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:58.560 episode revolved around, was on one side, the Roman Empire 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:02.600 under Emperor Valerian and then on the other side the 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:06.680 Sasanian Empire under a Chapur the first and so we 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.400 talked about the Battle of Odessa. We talked about this 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:15.680 this enormous military disaster in which not only are Valerians' 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:22.040 forces defeated, but Valerian himself, the Emperor of Rome, is 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:26.600 dethroned and captured by enemy forces. He is a prisoner 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:31.320 of war under the Sasanians. And so this is ultimately, 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:34.560 you know, what drew me into into this whole topic here, 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:38.400 like what are the ramifications of such a defeat, Because again, 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:41.000 while this does not compare to say, the complete taking 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:43.920 of a kingdom or the destruction of its capital, the 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:46.720 enslavement of a people, that sort of thing. It's still 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:51.000 an unthinkable occurrence in many respects because the emperor is 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:54.400 the very apex of the imperium, and now here he 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:57.919 is in the hands of the enemy. So for starters, yes, 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:01.520 one is no longer emperor if one is in enemy hands. 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:05.919 So instantly, once Valerian is giscaptured, the title of Roman 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:12.200 emperor immediately passes on to his son Galienus. Galienus was 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:15.840 already essentially co emperor with his father, and in two 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:19.040 sixty he becomes sole emperor, and ultimately he's going to 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:22.600 reign till two sixty eight eight year reign. Then he 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:27.800 is assassinated. The disaster of two sixty greatly undermined him, 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:30.919 and he almost immediately had to deal with other usurpers 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:34.240 within the Roman ranks. Now on the other side of things, 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.160 on the Sasanian side of things, this of course is 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:42.360 a most momentous occasion, and Chahbur the first has it 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:46.520 commemorated in rock relief. I think in more than one 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.720 spot that survives. One of the key ones is this 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:55.560 place called Nakshi Rustam. It shows two Roman emperors subjugated 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:59.600 by a figure mounted on horseback that is supposed to 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:03.080 be Sapur the first. So the two emperors here are 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:05.880 supposed to be Valerian, who of course has just been captured. 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:09.440 Also fill up the Arab, the soldier emperor of Rome 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:12.920 who followed the slain Gordian. This is the guy who 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:17.800 signed a treaty with the Sasanians. And there's another rock 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:22.880 relief elsewhere that also shows Valerian bowing before the Sasanian king. Now, 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:26.000 one of the sources that I referred to a lot 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:30.520 in the previous episode is Touraj Dari, who wrote this 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:34.360 wonderful book about the Sasanians. Go back and listen to 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:38.320 that episode for full citation on that source, and he 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:42.159 is referring here to Shapur the first quote. No other 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.640 person before could have claimed that he was able to 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:48.440 kill a Roman emperor, make one a tributary, and capture 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:52.159 and imprison a third. Sapor was very much aware of 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.960 this feat and did not hesitate to mention it in 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.960 his inscription, and ultimately he also ends up commemorating this 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:03.080 victory in his biom graphy as well. Now you'll remember 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:06.240 the idea that he killed a Roman emperor, that is 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:10.039 maybe a beefed up claim. The emperor in question may 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:12.520 have just been killed by his own soldiers, which was 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:15.279 of course a common fate for Roman emperors during this 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.799 time of great unrest. Now Here we get into another 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:22.520 really contested aspect of all of this, perhaps the most 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.839 contested aspect of the whole scenario, and that is what 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:30.000 then exactly happens to Valerian. We know that he's not 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:34.600 emperor anymore, he is a prisoner of war, but then 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:37.279 what does that mean? What is going to happen to 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:42.159 a supreme ruler in enemy hands during this time? And 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:46.039 we have various accounts of what happened. What happened we know, 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:51.120 for instance, Darry says that the Iranian sources say that 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:56.960 he and some senators and soldiers were deported into Sasanian territory, 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:00.159 but we don't really know for sure what happened. But 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:05.120 the accounts range from the mundane to the horrific, and 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:06.920 all told, none of it is truly out of the 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:10.159 question during this time period, I guess one big question 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:13.000 we might ask is, just like, what was standard treatment 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:17.800 during the day for a captured ruler of an enemy group, 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:20.279 and in fact, we might well look to the Romans 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:21.360 for such an example. 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:25.359 Oh yeah, sure, because so the export of a defeated 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:30.640 ruler to the victorious metropole of the rival empire would 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:33.280 not at all have been an unheard of concept in 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:36.960 ancient Rome. As soon as we started talking about this subject, 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:40.160 a couple of examples came immediately to my mind. These 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:42.320 are by no means the only examples, but these are 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:44.960 the first ones I thought of. One is fictional and 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:49.200 the other historical. So the fictional example is a scene 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:53.039 in William Shakespeare's play Tied to Sandronicus, which, now, to 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:56.679 be clear, this is not like Shakespeare's other Roman plays, 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:00.320 like Julius Caesar, those are based on real historical at 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:02.560 least to some extent, or events that were believed at 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:06.440 Shakespeare's time to be real historical events. Titus Andronicus is 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:10.880 wholly a fictional scenario, but individual elements from it and 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:13.960 scenes in it are based on scenarios that really did happen. 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.240 And the one I'm thinking of is the very beginning 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:20.440 of the play. And so, in a scene in Act one, Titus, 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:23.240 the title character is a Roman general. He's returning to 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:26.440 Rome after a long war of conquest against the Goths, 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:30.320 and with him he brings prisoners that he is parading 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:35.000 through the streets, including Tamara, the queen of the Goths. 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:38.600 And then a little bit further down, Lucius says, give 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:41.200 us the proudest prisoner of the Goths, that we may 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:44.880 hew his limbs, and on a pile ad manes fratum, 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:49.080 sacrifice his flesh before this earthly prison of their bones, 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:53.320 that so the shadows be not unappeased, nor we disturbed 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:57.920 with prodigies on earth. And then later Tamara herself, the 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:02.880 queen of the Goths, says, stay Roman brethren, gracious conqueror, victorious, 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.280 Titus rue the tears I shed a mother's tears and 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:09.200 passion for her son. And if thy sons were ever 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:11.920 dear to thee, oh, think my son to be as 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:15.200 dear to me. Sufficeth not that we are brought to 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:19.119 Rome to beautify thy triumphs, in return captive to thee 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:22.080 and to thy Roman yoke. But must my sons be 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:25.880 slaughtered in the streets for valiant doings in their country's cause? 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:26.640 Oh? 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:29.800 If to fight for king and commonweal we're piety in 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:33.880 thine it is in these Andronicus, stain not thy tomb 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:37.200 with blood, wilt thou draw near the nature of the gods, 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.880 draw near them. Then in being merciful, sweet mercy, is 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:45.680 nobility's true badge. Thrice, noble Titus, spare my firstborn son. 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.280 So the scenario is, this is the queen of the 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:52.800 defeated enemy nation that Rome has conquered. She is brought 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:55.560 back with her sons, and they are going to do 0:08:55.640 --> 0:09:00.120 a human sacrifice of her captive son back here in Rome, 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.320 and she's pleading with Titus, don't do it, please, don't 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:05.559 do it, but they're going to do it again. 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:09.679 Not a story or an account directly from the time 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:11.800 that we're talking about here, and not from the Romans. 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:16.360 This is Shakespeare. But still it paints both a grim 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:20.000 picture of what may have been the standard, but also, 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:24.320 at least from in Shakespeare's voice, it's asking questions about like, 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:26.520 is this really the way we should handle things with 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:30.360 when it comes to captives? Is this really the way 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:30.640 to go? 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:34.640 Of course, as the morality of Roman practices is highly 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.240 questionable to us today, I would say even so is 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:40.880 the implied morality of the play, where I don't know 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:44.480 so Tamara eventually becomes the villain, right or I don't know. 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:47.120 I guess it's kind of hard to say within a 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:50.520 hyper violent tragedy and revenge story like Titus Andronicus, But 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:54.760 she eventually becomes the wife of the Emperor Saturn Ninus 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:58.680 and then they end up. Oh, it's a whole big battle. 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:01.640 There's a lot of like watering sons and feeding them 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:05.400 to people. But to bring it to real history, I 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:09.360 think clearly this scene in Shakespeare is based on real 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:13.040 historical events. One example that came to my mind immediately 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:18.880 is the story of Versinjenerics, who was originally a nobleman 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:23.880 of the Arverni tribe of the Gauls. So in the 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:29.400 fifties BCE, Julius Caesar was engaged in a number of 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:32.080 campaigns that came to be known as the Gallic Wars. 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.800 It was a war, basically a war of conquest in Gaul, 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:39.040 which gall is an area of western Europe that roughly 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:44.480 corresponds to modern day France. And it's complicated, but basically 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:46.920 the aim of these wars was to bring the various 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:50.600 tribes of the region under Roman domination. Now this is 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:54.280 before Caesar was an emperor at the time he was 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:59.520 I believe he was governor of Gaul, but he was 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:03.120 a military commander, and he was practicing a form of 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:07.480 divide and rule, showing favor on some Gallic tribes and 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.320 nobles in order to play them against the other Gallic 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:14.400 tribes and nobles. And I think it is it's alleged 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:18.560 that earlier in this effort Versus Generics, this one particular 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:22.959 Gallic noble had been on relatively good terms with Rome 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.959 and with Caesar. But sometime later in the campaign Versus 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.360 Generics did a u turn and he ended up mounting 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:33.840 an effort to unite the Gallic tribes in brotherhood to say, okay, 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:36.120 let's stop squabbling with each other. We can't let them 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:38.679 divide and rule us. We got a band together and 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:42.640 fight back. Now I know that initially under Versus Jederics, 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:46.880 the Gulls were actually pretty effective at resisting Roman conquest. 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:52.320 Versus Jederics apparently employed a sort of harass and deprived strategy, 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:58.160 so kind of having quick moving troops moving around and 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:02.080 harassing the Roman column and then also practicing scorched earth 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:05.720 tactics to deprive the Romans of food and other supplies. 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.280 So you know, the Romans normally what they would do 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:10.520 is they would move into an area and then they 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:14.720 would confiscate food and other important supplies from the locals 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:18.440 in order to feed their army. Versus Jederics said, okay, now, 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:20.360 what we're going to do is just like burn and 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.079 destroy and remove all of the food and whatever area 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:25.400 the Romans are about to move into, so they can't 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:29.160 feed themselves. And this actually was a very smart tactic. 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:33.840 But ultimately the Gulls were defeated. Caesar surrounded and besieged 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:38.640 Versus Generics and his forces at a battle called the 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:43.400 Battle of Alicia and fifty two BCE, and facing certain defeat, 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:47.360 Versus Generics made a bid for mercy, a bid for 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:52.440 mercy for his troops by surrendering himself personally to Caesar. 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:55.800 And this story is told in the work of the 0:12:55.840 --> 0:13:00.880 second and third century Roman historian Cassius Dio also sometimes 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:06.160 called Dio Cassius, and Dio Cassius writes as follows, Now, 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:09.920 Versinjenerics might have escaped, for he had not been captured 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:13.400 and was unwounded, but he hoped, since he had once 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:16.520 been on friendly terms with Caesar, that he might obtain 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:19.800 pardon from him. So he came to him without any 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:23.960 announcement by Harold, but appeared before him suddenly as Caesar 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:27.360 was seated on the tribunal, and threw some who were 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.920 present into alarm, for he was very tall to begin with, 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:34.400 and in his armor he made an extremely imposing figure. 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:38.000 When quiet had been restored, he uttered not a word, 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:41.520 but fell upon his knees with hands clasped in an 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:46.160 attitude of supplication. This inspired many with pity at remembrance 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:49.680 of his former fortune and the distressing state in which 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:53.240 he now appeared. But Caesar reproached him in this very 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:56.160 matter on which he most relied for his safety, and 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.480 by setting over against his claim of former friendship, his 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:02.560 recent eye position showed his offense to have been the 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:06.400 more grievous. Therefore, he did not pity him even at 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:09.959 the time, but immediately confined him in bonds, and later, 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.079 after sending him to his triumph, put him to death. 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:17.000 And then I think after this event Caesar basically slaughtered 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.600 everybody that the Roman behavior in the Gallic Wars was 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:23.960 extremely brutal. Now, coming back to what Diocassia says at 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:26.440 the end of that passage that he was sent to 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:30.360 Rome for Caesar's triumph and then he was eventually put 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:33.960 to death. Apparently what happened is he was sent to Rome, 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:37.120 where he was held in prison for about five or 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:42.840 six years before being ritually executed after he was displayed 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:47.120 to the public in Caesar's Four Triumphs in forty six BCE. 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:50.520 The Four Triumphs, it was a kind of victory parade 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:54.280 and festival celebrating the conquest of the various nations who 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:57.800 had come under Rome's heel. To read from Dio Cassius 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:01.760 in a different section describing the for Triumphs quote after this, 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.640 he conducted the whole festival in a brilliant manner, as 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:07.880 was fitting in honor of victories so many and so decisive. 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:12.760 He celebrated triumphs for the Gauls, for Egypt, for Pharnaces, 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:16.560 and for Juba in four sections on four separate days. 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:20.000 Most of it, of course, delighted the spectators, but the 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:24.160 site of Arseneaux of Egypt, and Arsenau was was a 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:28.880 queen of the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt, and that dynasty 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:32.720 was unseated by Julius Caesar around forty seven Bce. But 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:36.880 to continue the quote saying of Arseno, whom he led 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:39.880 among the captives, and the host of lictors, and the 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:42.920 symbols of triumph taken from the citizens who had fallen 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:47.000 in Africa displeased them exceedingly. The lictors, on account of 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:50.640 their numbers, appeared to them a most offensive multitude, since 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:53.600 never before had they beheld so many at one time. 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:56.720 And the site of Arsenau, a woman and one considered 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:59.760 a queen in chains, a spectacle which had never yet 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:03.080 been seen at least in Rome, aroused very great pity, 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:08.320 and with this as an excuse they lamented their private misfortunes. She, 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:11.600 to be sure, was released out of consideration for her brothers. 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.960 But others, including verse in Generics, were put to death. 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:17.880 And I don't know what the source on this following 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:21.520 detail is, but it seems like most historians agree that 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:25.040 the way versus Generics was put to death was by garrotting, 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:28.400 a kind of ritual strangulation. And I believe in a temple, 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:31.720 but this seems to be a ritual well known to 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.680 the Romans, that like a leader of a subjugated nation 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:38.040 would sometimes be brought back to Rome as a kind 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:41.920 of souvenir of the returning conqueror's power, and then put 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:45.320 on public display in some fashion, probably sort of humiliated. 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:48.320 And then after that it seems their fates were varied. 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:52.080 Some were put to death, others were given a more 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:55.480 merciful fate of some kind, maybe released or kept imprisoned. 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:59.960 Though I believe it's interesting that in that passage Diocasta 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:04.080 says that Arsena was released. I think other historians write 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:07.000 that after years of being imprisoned in a temple, Arsenau 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:11.359 was executed on orders of Mark Antony, allegedly at the 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:13.880 behest of Cleopatra. But that again, that's one of those 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:16.679 things that you wonder if that's historically true or if 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.480 that's just somebody who's like mad at Antony and Cleopatra 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:20.720 trying to make them look bad. 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.320 Right right, there's certainly plenty of that to go around. 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:28.919 By the way, this episode with versus Jenerics was depicted 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:32.639 in the HBO series Rome. I'd kind of forgotten about this, 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.359 but once you went through the description, I had to 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:36.840 look it up. I was like, yes, yes, that was 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:38.639 depicted at one point in that series. 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:40.800 Oh, I don't think I've seen that. So they what 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:44.080 do they do to him? And like they strangle him 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:45.600 in the temple, did they put him on parade? 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:48.320 They either, I think they might. It's been a long 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:50.320 time since I've seen this show, and I'm not in 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.240 a big hurry to watch it again, But though it 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:57.760 has a wonderful cast, I believe they have him depicted strangled, 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:00.960 perhaps in a cage in the street or on the 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:03.879 steps of a temple. But again, my memory on this 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:04.840 is foggy. 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.240 So I don't know if this is true. But it 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:11.760 seems like a common received interpretation that Versus Generics was 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:15.639 put to death here because he turned on Caesar and 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:19.240 humiliated Caesar's forces in battle. That you know, because he 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:24.000 had been very successful in stopping them early on, that 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.879 this led to him being treated especially harshly. But in 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:32.800 general Roman leaders were very cruel, very brutal, very into domination, 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:35.600 and had a low tolerance for being embarrassed. 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:45.120 All right, So that leads us back to Valerian and 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:48.359 certainly doesn't look great for him at this point based 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:53.360 on what we've covered thus far. For starters, he certainly 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:57.560 died in captivity. There's no version of the history here 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:01.440 in which he escapes that fate. I guess it should 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:04.000 be noted. As far as I know, there's there are 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:06.840 no surviving accounts that he escaped that fate, and I 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:10.600 guess there's no there's no like real reason, there was 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:14.040 no real faction that had an interest in pushing that fiction, 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:19.320 you know, that in which that version of history served 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:22.159 some purpose or another. Uh. But we'll get it, you know, 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.159 we'll get more into that. But you might remember in 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:26.800 our past episode we talked about how how was the 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:29.800 defeat at the Battle of Adessa framed? How are the 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.080 particulars of that defeat passed down? And you know, a 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.119 lot of times it's about from the Christian perspective, it's 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:39.879 about saying Valerian was punished by God because he was 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:43.360 cruel to Christians back home and had a pope put 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:46.560 to death. And then from the Roman standpoint, it's a 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:48.800 it's about pushing the idea that well, he was weak 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:52.800 and the Susanians were deceptive, uh, and therefore sort of 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:56.719 excuse the loss to some extent. But as we said earlier, 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.199 there's a there's a lot of leeway and how we 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.919 might actually interpret his death and in now the various 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:07.480 histories have mentioned the death of Valerian in Sesanian hands. 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:10.639 Since we're already talking about the horrific side of things, 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:13.000 let's stick with the horrific side of things, and then 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:16.479 we'll come back to the more mundane possibilities towards the end. 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.280 It's kind of a palate cleanser, I guess so. According 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:23.760 to early Christian writer and Christian apologist Lectantius, who lived 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:28.399 two fifty through three twenty five, things were pretty grim 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:31.439 for Valerian. And we have to mention, though, that the 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:34.800 thing about Lectantius is he has a whole axe to 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:38.840 grind here on the survival of Christianity. And he wrote 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:43.159 an entire work titled on the Death of Persecutors, in 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:46.080 which he writes the following about Valerian. And this is 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:50.000 of course a translation here and presently Valerian, also in 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:53.520 a mood alike Frantic, lifted up his impious hands to 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:57.600 assault God, and although his time was short, shed much 0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:01.240 righteous blood. But God punished him in a new and 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:04.560 extraordinary manner, that it might be a lesson to future 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:08.600 ages that the adversaries of heaven always receive the just 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:13.199 recompense of their inequities. He having been made prisoner by 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:15.840 the Persians, lost not only that power which he had 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:19.800 exercised without moderation, but also the liberty of which he 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.960 had deprived others. And he wasted the remainder of his 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.720 days in the violence condition of slavery. For suppor, the 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:30.320 king of the Persians, who had made him prisoner, whenever 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:32.680 he chose to get into his carriage or to mount 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:36.760 on horseback, commanded the Roman to stoop and present his back. Then, 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:39.639 setting his foot on the shoulders of Valerian, he said, 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:43.280 with a smile of reproach, quote, this is true and 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:47.439 not what the Romans delineate on board or plaster unquote. 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:49.919 And just to pause right there, I love how in 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:54.920 this account Lactantas has has the king of the Sasanians 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:57.760 here basically turned to the reader and say, this is 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:01.240 one hundred percent true. I'm not making this up. Don't 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:07.280 believe those Romans. That's good anyway, Like conscious continues here, 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:11.600 Valerian lived for a considerable time under the well merited 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:15.320 insults of his conqueror, so that the Roman name remained 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:19.000 long the scoff and derision of the barbarians, and this 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:22.320 also was added to the severity of his punishment, that 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:25.439 although he had an emperor for his son, he found 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:29.240 no one to revenge his captivity and most abject and 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:34.320 servile state. Neither indeed was he ever demanded back. Afterward, 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:38.320 when he had finished this shameful life under so great dishonor, 0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:41.639 he was flayed, and his skin stripped from the flesh, 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:45.679 was dyed with remilion and placed in the temple of 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:48.879 the gods of the Barbarians, that the remembrance of a 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:53.600 triumph so signal might be perpetuated, and that this spectacle 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:57.440 might always be exhibited to our ambassadors as an admonition 0:22:57.600 --> 0:23:01.560 of the Romans that beholding the spoil of their captive 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:04.800 emperor in a Persian temple, they should not place too 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:06.720 great confidence in their own strength. 0:23:07.160 --> 0:23:10.000 Okay, So it gets very clive barker at the end here, 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:14.560 and they say that that after his torment is in it, 0:23:14.600 --> 0:23:18.720 which again Lactantius is saying totally justified. We don't know 0:23:18.920 --> 0:23:21.680 if what he's saying here has any basis in fact, 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:24.600 but he's claiming that this he got his comeuppance for 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:28.320 being a persecutor of Christians, and when it was all done, 0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:32.560 his skin was removed from his body was dyed red 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:36.439 and then was placed in the temple of the gods 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:38.480 of the Barbarians, right. 0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:41.840 Right, pretty horrendous. And again I do love how he 0:23:41.960 --> 0:23:46.200 has Sabur basically break the fourth wall and say, hey, Christians, 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:48.760 this is the real story. Don't believe what anyone someone 0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:52.240 else tells you, thus acknowledging that there are other accounts 0:23:52.240 --> 0:23:55.240 of what happened. So I was I was reading a 0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:57.800 little bit more about this. I found a source here. 0:23:57.840 --> 0:24:00.359 This was published in Classical Quarterly and two thousand and 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:05.240 six from Erica Reiner, titled The red Ling of Valerian, 0:24:06.000 --> 0:24:10.080 and according to Reiner, Reiner writes that the La Tantis 0:24:10.080 --> 0:24:13.760 account is by far the most detailed and the most disputed, 0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:17.080