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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick. It's Saturday, and so we are

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Speaker 2: going into the vault for an older episode of the show.

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Speaker 2: This one originally published on July twenty first, twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 2: and it's The Fall of Valerian, Part two, continuing from

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Speaker 2: last Saturday. Enjoy.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two

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Speaker 2: of our series on the Fall of Valerian. Rob, can

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Speaker 2: you cutch us up? But of course, if you haven't

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Speaker 2: heard part one yet, you should go back and listen

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Speaker 2: to that first. But if you, assuming you have, Rob,

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Speaker 2: can you do a brief refresher?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'll refresh everybody on the basics here. So

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Speaker 1: when are we well? We are during This is all

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Speaker 1: taking place during the Crisis of the Third Century. This

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Speaker 1: was a period between two thirty five and two eighty

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Speaker 1: four CE in which the Roman Empire is facing all

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Speaker 1: sorts of internal problems just about following apart lots of warfare,

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Speaker 1: between different would be emperors. There's there's almost an emperor

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Speaker 1: every year during this period. Meanwhile, in Persia we have

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Speaker 1: the strong and united Sasanian Empire. And so in the

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Speaker 1: last episode, we talked about the background, especially on the

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Speaker 1: Sasanian Empire, background on how Rome reaches this state, why

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Speaker 1: it's in such crisis, and who some of the major

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Speaker 1: players are, and what some of the short imperial reigns

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Speaker 1: consisted of. And so the key conflict though that the

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Speaker 1: episode revolved around, was on one side, the Roman Empire

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Speaker 1: under Emperor Valerian and then on the other side the

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Speaker 1: Sasanian Empire under a Chapur the first and so we

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Speaker 1: talked about the Battle of Odessa. We talked about this

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Speaker 1: this enormous military disaster in which not only are Valerians'

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Speaker 1: forces defeated, but Valerian himself, the Emperor of Rome, is

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Speaker 1: dethroned and captured by enemy forces. He is a prisoner

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Speaker 1: of war under the Sasanians. And so this is ultimately,

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Speaker 1: you know, what drew me into into this whole topic here,

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Speaker 1: like what are the ramifications of such a defeat, Because again,

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Speaker 1: while this does not compare to say, the complete taking

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Speaker 1: of a kingdom or the destruction of its capital, the

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Speaker 1: enslavement of a people, that sort of thing. It's still

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Speaker 1: an unthinkable occurrence in many respects because the emperor is

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Speaker 1: the very apex of the imperium, and now here he

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Speaker 1: is in the hands of the enemy. So for starters, yes,

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Speaker 1: one is no longer emperor if one is in enemy hands.

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Speaker 1: So instantly, once Valerian is giscaptured, the title of Roman

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Speaker 1: emperor immediately passes on to his son Galienus. Galienus was

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Speaker 1: already essentially co emperor with his father, and in two

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Speaker 1: sixty he becomes sole emperor, and ultimately he's going to

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Speaker 1: reign till two sixty eight eight year reign. Then he

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Speaker 1: is assassinated. The disaster of two sixty greatly undermined him,

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Speaker 1: and he almost immediately had to deal with other usurpers

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Speaker 1: within the Roman ranks. Now on the other side of things,

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Speaker 1: on the Sasanian side of things, this of course is

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Speaker 1: a most momentous occasion, and Chahbur the first has it

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Speaker 1: commemorated in rock relief. I think in more than one

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Speaker 1: spot that survives. One of the key ones is this

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Speaker 1: place called Nakshi Rustam. It shows two Roman emperors subjugated

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Speaker 1: by a figure mounted on horseback that is supposed to

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Speaker 1: be Sapur the first. So the two emperors here are

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Speaker 1: supposed to be Valerian, who of course has just been captured.

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Speaker 1: Also fill up the Arab, the soldier emperor of Rome

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Speaker 1: who followed the slain Gordian. This is the guy who

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Speaker 1: signed a treaty with the Sasanians. And there's another rock

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Speaker 1: relief elsewhere that also shows Valerian bowing before the Sasanian king. Now,

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Speaker 1: one of the sources that I referred to a lot

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Speaker 1: in the previous episode is Touraj Dari, who wrote this

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Speaker 1: wonderful book about the Sasanians. Go back and listen to

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Speaker 1: that episode for full citation on that source, and he

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Speaker 1: is referring here to Shapur the first quote. No other

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Speaker 1: person before could have claimed that he was able to

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Speaker 1: kill a Roman emperor, make one a tributary, and capture

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Speaker 1: and imprison a third. Sapor was very much aware of

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Speaker 1: this feat and did not hesitate to mention it in

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Speaker 1: his inscription, and ultimately he also ends up commemorating this

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Speaker 1: victory in his biom graphy as well. Now you'll remember

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Speaker 1: the idea that he killed a Roman emperor, that is

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Speaker 1: maybe a beefed up claim. The emperor in question may

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Speaker 1: have just been killed by his own soldiers, which was

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Speaker 1: of course a common fate for Roman emperors during this

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Speaker 1: time of great unrest. Now Here we get into another

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Speaker 1: really contested aspect of all of this, perhaps the most

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Speaker 1: contested aspect of the whole scenario, and that is what

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Speaker 1: then exactly happens to Valerian. We know that he's not

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Speaker 1: emperor anymore, he is a prisoner of war, but then

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Speaker 1: what does that mean? What is going to happen to

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Speaker 1: a supreme ruler in enemy hands during this time? And

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Speaker 1: we have various accounts of what happened. What happened we know,

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Speaker 1: for instance, Darry says that the Iranian sources say that

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Speaker 1: he and some senators and soldiers were deported into Sasanian territory,

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Speaker 1: but we don't really know for sure what happened. But

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Speaker 1: the accounts range from the mundane to the horrific, and

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Speaker 1: all told, none of it is truly out of the

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Speaker 1: question during this time period, I guess one big question

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Speaker 1: we might ask is, just like, what was standard treatment

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Speaker 1: during the day for a captured ruler of an enemy group,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, we might well look to the Romans

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Speaker 1: for such an example.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, sure, because so the export of a defeated

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Speaker 2: ruler to the victorious metropole of the rival empire would

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Speaker 2: not at all have been an unheard of concept in

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Speaker 2: ancient Rome. As soon as we started talking about this subject,

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Speaker 2: a couple of examples came immediately to my mind. These

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Speaker 2: are by no means the only examples, but these are

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Speaker 2: the first ones I thought of. One is fictional and

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Speaker 2: the other historical. So the fictional example is a scene

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Speaker 2: in William Shakespeare's play Tied to Sandronicus, which, now, to

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Speaker 2: be clear, this is not like Shakespeare's other Roman plays,

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Speaker 2: like Julius Caesar, those are based on real historical at

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Speaker 2: least to some extent, or events that were believed at

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Speaker 2: Shakespeare's time to be real historical events. Titus Andronicus is

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Speaker 2: wholly a fictional scenario, but individual elements from it and

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Speaker 2: scenes in it are based on scenarios that really did happen.

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Speaker 2: And the one I'm thinking of is the very beginning

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Speaker 2: of the play. And so, in a scene in Act one, Titus,

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Speaker 2: the title character is a Roman general. He's returning to

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Speaker 2: Rome after a long war of conquest against the Goths,

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Speaker 2: and with him he brings prisoners that he is parading

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Speaker 2: through the streets, including Tamara, the queen of the Goths.

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Speaker 2: And then a little bit further down, Lucius says, give

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Speaker 2: us the proudest prisoner of the Goths, that we may

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Speaker 2: hew his limbs, and on a pile ad manes fratum,

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Speaker 2: sacrifice his flesh before this earthly prison of their bones,

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Speaker 2: that so the shadows be not unappeased, nor we disturbed

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Speaker 2: with prodigies on earth. And then later Tamara herself, the

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Speaker 2: queen of the Goths, says, stay Roman brethren, gracious conqueror, victorious,

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Speaker 2: Titus rue the tears I shed a mother's tears and

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Speaker 2: passion for her son. And if thy sons were ever

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Speaker 2: dear to thee, oh, think my son to be as

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Speaker 2: dear to me. Sufficeth not that we are brought to

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Speaker 2: Rome to beautify thy triumphs, in return captive to thee

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Speaker 2: and to thy Roman yoke. But must my sons be

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Speaker 2: slaughtered in the streets for valiant doings in their country's cause?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: If to fight for king and commonweal we're piety in

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Speaker 2: thine it is in these Andronicus, stain not thy tomb

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Speaker 2: with blood, wilt thou draw near the nature of the gods,

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Speaker 2: draw near them. Then in being merciful, sweet mercy, is

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Speaker 2: nobility's true badge. Thrice, noble Titus, spare my firstborn son.

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Speaker 2: So the scenario is, this is the queen of the

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Speaker 2: defeated enemy nation that Rome has conquered. She is brought

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Speaker 2: back with her sons, and they are going to do

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Speaker 2: a human sacrifice of her captive son back here in Rome,

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Speaker 2: and she's pleading with Titus, don't do it, please, don't

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Speaker 2: do it, but they're going to do it again.

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Speaker 1: Not a story or an account directly from the time

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about here, and not from the Romans.

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Speaker 1: This is Shakespeare. But still it paints both a grim

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Speaker 1: picture of what may have been the standard, but also,

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Speaker 1: at least from in Shakespeare's voice, it's asking questions about like,

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Speaker 1: is this really the way we should handle things with

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Speaker 1: when it comes to captives? Is this really the way

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Speaker 1: to go?

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Speaker 2: Of course, as the morality of Roman practices is highly

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Speaker 2: questionable to us today, I would say even so is

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Speaker 2: the implied morality of the play, where I don't know

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Speaker 2: so Tamara eventually becomes the villain, right or I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I guess it's kind of hard to say within a

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Speaker 2: hyper violent tragedy and revenge story like Titus Andronicus, But

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Speaker 2: she eventually becomes the wife of the Emperor Saturn Ninus

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Speaker 2: and then they end up. Oh, it's a whole big battle.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of like watering sons and feeding them

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Speaker 2: to people. But to bring it to real history, I

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Speaker 2: think clearly this scene in Shakespeare is based on real

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Speaker 2: historical events. One example that came to my mind immediately

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Speaker 2: is the story of Versinjenerics, who was originally a nobleman

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Speaker 2: of the Arverni tribe of the Gauls. So in the

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Speaker 2: fifties BCE, Julius Caesar was engaged in a number of

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Speaker 2: campaigns that came to be known as the Gallic Wars.

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Speaker 2: It was a war, basically a war of conquest in Gaul,

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Speaker 2: which gall is an area of western Europe that roughly

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Speaker 2: corresponds to modern day France. And it's complicated, but basically

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Speaker 2: the aim of these wars was to bring the various

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Speaker 2: tribes of the region under Roman domination. Now this is

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Speaker 2: before Caesar was an emperor at the time he was

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Speaker 2: I believe he was governor of Gaul, but he was

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Speaker 2: a military commander, and he was practicing a form of

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Speaker 2: divide and rule, showing favor on some Gallic tribes and

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Speaker 2: nobles in order to play them against the other Gallic

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Speaker 2: tribes and nobles. And I think it is it's alleged

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Speaker 2: that earlier in this effort Versus Generics, this one particular

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Speaker 2: Gallic noble had been on relatively good terms with Rome

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Speaker 2: and with Caesar. But sometime later in the campaign Versus

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Speaker 2: Generics did a u turn and he ended up mounting

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Speaker 2: an effort to unite the Gallic tribes in brotherhood to say, okay,

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Speaker 2: let's stop squabbling with each other. We can't let them

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Speaker 2: divide and rule us. We got a band together and

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Speaker 2: fight back. Now I know that initially under Versus Jederics,

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Speaker 2: the Gulls were actually pretty effective at resisting Roman conquest.

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Speaker 2: Versus Jederics apparently employed a sort of harass and deprived strategy,

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Speaker 2: so kind of having quick moving troops moving around and

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Speaker 2: harassing the Roman column and then also practicing scorched earth

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Speaker 2: tactics to deprive the Romans of food and other supplies.

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Speaker 2: So you know, the Romans normally what they would do

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Speaker 2: is they would move into an area and then they

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Speaker 2: would confiscate food and other important supplies from the locals

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Speaker 2: in order to feed their army. Versus Jederics said, okay, now,

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Speaker 2: what we're going to do is just like burn and

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Speaker 2: destroy and remove all of the food and whatever area

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Speaker 2: the Romans are about to move into, so they can't

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Speaker 2: feed themselves. And this actually was a very smart tactic.

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Speaker 2: But ultimately the Gulls were defeated. Caesar surrounded and besieged

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Speaker 2: Versus Generics and his forces at a battle called the

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Speaker 2: Battle of Alicia and fifty two BCE, and facing certain defeat,

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Speaker 2: Versus Generics made a bid for mercy, a bid for

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Speaker 2: mercy for his troops by surrendering himself personally to Caesar.

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Speaker 2: And this story is told in the work of the

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Speaker 2: second and third century Roman historian Cassius Dio also sometimes

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Speaker 2: called Dio Cassius, and Dio Cassius writes as follows, Now,

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Speaker 2: Versinjenerics might have escaped, for he had not been captured

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Speaker 2: and was unwounded, but he hoped, since he had once

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Speaker 2: been on friendly terms with Caesar, that he might obtain

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Speaker 2: pardon from him. So he came to him without any

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Speaker 2: announcement by Harold, but appeared before him suddenly as Caesar

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Speaker 2: was seated on the tribunal, and threw some who were

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Speaker 2: present into alarm, for he was very tall to begin with,

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Speaker 2: and in his armor he made an extremely imposing figure.

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Speaker 2: When quiet had been restored, he uttered not a word,

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Speaker 2: but fell upon his knees with hands clasped in an

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Speaker 2: attitude of supplication. This inspired many with pity at remembrance

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Speaker 2: of his former fortune and the distressing state in which

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Speaker 2: he now appeared. But Caesar reproached him in this very

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Speaker 2: matter on which he most relied for his safety, and

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Speaker 2: by setting over against his claim of former friendship, his

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Speaker 2: recent eye position showed his offense to have been the

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Speaker 2: more grievous. Therefore, he did not pity him even at

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Speaker 2: the time, but immediately confined him in bonds, and later,

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Speaker 2: after sending him to his triumph, put him to death.

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Speaker 2: And then I think after this event Caesar basically slaughtered

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Speaker 2: everybody that the Roman behavior in the Gallic Wars was

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Speaker 2: extremely brutal. Now, coming back to what Diocassia says at

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Speaker 2: the end of that passage that he was sent to

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Speaker 2: Rome for Caesar's triumph and then he was eventually put

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Speaker 2: to death. Apparently what happened is he was sent to Rome,

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Speaker 2: where he was held in prison for about five or

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Speaker 2: six years before being ritually executed after he was displayed

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Speaker 2: to the public in Caesar's Four Triumphs in forty six BCE.

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Speaker 2: The Four Triumphs, it was a kind of victory parade

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Speaker 2: and festival celebrating the conquest of the various nations who

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Speaker 2: had come under Rome's heel. To read from Dio Cassius

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Speaker 2: in a different section describing the for Triumphs quote after this,

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Speaker 2: he conducted the whole festival in a brilliant manner, as

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Speaker 2: was fitting in honor of victories so many and so decisive.

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Speaker 2: He celebrated triumphs for the Gauls, for Egypt, for Pharnaces,

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Speaker 2: and for Juba in four sections on four separate days.

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Speaker 2: Most of it, of course, delighted the spectators, but the

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Speaker 2: site of Arseneaux of Egypt, and Arsenau was was a

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Speaker 2: queen of the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt, and that dynasty

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Speaker 2: was unseated by Julius Caesar around forty seven Bce. But

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Speaker 2: to continue the quote saying of Arseno, whom he led

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Speaker 2: among the captives, and the host of lictors, and the

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Speaker 2: symbols of triumph taken from the citizens who had fallen

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Speaker 2: in Africa displeased them exceedingly. The lictors, on account of

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Speaker 2: their numbers, appeared to them a most offensive multitude, since

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Speaker 2: never before had they beheld so many at one time.

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Speaker 2: And the site of Arsenau, a woman and one considered

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Speaker 2: a queen in chains, a spectacle which had never yet

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Speaker 2: been seen at least in Rome, aroused very great pity,

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Speaker 2: and with this as an excuse they lamented their private misfortunes. She,

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Speaker 2: to be sure, was released out of consideration for her brothers.

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Speaker 2: But others, including verse in Generics, were put to death.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know what the source on this following

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Speaker 2: detail is, but it seems like most historians agree that

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Speaker 2: the way versus Generics was put to death was by garrotting,

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Speaker 2: a kind of ritual strangulation. And I believe in a temple,

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Speaker 2: but this seems to be a ritual well known to

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Speaker 2: the Romans, that like a leader of a subjugated nation

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Speaker 2: would sometimes be brought back to Rome as a kind

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Speaker 2: of souvenir of the returning conqueror's power, and then put

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Speaker 2: on public display in some fashion, probably sort of humiliated.

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Speaker 2: And then after that it seems their fates were varied.

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Speaker 2: Some were put to death, others were given a more

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Speaker 2: merciful fate of some kind, maybe released or kept imprisoned.

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Speaker 2: Though I believe it's interesting that in that passage Diocasta

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Speaker 2: says that Arsena was released. I think other historians write

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Speaker 2: that after years of being imprisoned in a temple, Arsenau

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Speaker 2: was executed on orders of Mark Antony, allegedly at the

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Speaker 2: behest of Cleopatra. But that again, that's one of those

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Speaker 2: things that you wonder if that's historically true or if

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Speaker 2: that's just somebody who's like mad at Antony and Cleopatra

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Speaker 2: trying to make them look bad.

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Speaker 1: Right right, there's certainly plenty of that to go around.

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Speaker 1: By the way, this episode with versus Jenerics was depicted

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Speaker 1: in the HBO series Rome. I'd kind of forgotten about this,

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Speaker 1: but once you went through the description, I had to

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Speaker 1: look it up. I was like, yes, yes, that was

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Speaker 1: depicted at one point in that series.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I don't think I've seen that. So they what

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Speaker 2: do they do to him? And like they strangle him

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Speaker 2: in the temple, did they put him on parade?

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Speaker 1: They either, I think they might. It's been a long

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Speaker 1: time since I've seen this show, and I'm not in

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Speaker 1: a big hurry to watch it again, But though it

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Speaker 1: has a wonderful cast, I believe they have him depicted strangled,

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Speaker 1: perhaps in a cage in the street or on the

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Speaker 1: steps of a temple. But again, my memory on this

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Speaker 1: is foggy.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know if this is true. But it

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Speaker 2: seems like a common received interpretation that Versus Generics was

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Speaker 2: put to death here because he turned on Caesar and

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Speaker 2: humiliated Caesar's forces in battle. That you know, because he

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Speaker 2: had been very successful in stopping them early on, that

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Speaker 2: this led to him being treated especially harshly. But in

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Speaker 2: general Roman leaders were very cruel, very brutal, very into domination,

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Speaker 2: and had a low tolerance for being embarrassed.

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Speaker 1: All right, So that leads us back to Valerian and

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Speaker 1: certainly doesn't look great for him at this point based

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Speaker 1: on what we've covered thus far. For starters, he certainly

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Speaker 1: died in captivity. There's no version of the history here

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Speaker 1: in which he escapes that fate. I guess it should

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Speaker 1: be noted. As far as I know, there's there are

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Speaker 1: no surviving accounts that he escaped that fate, and I

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Speaker 1: guess there's no there's no like real reason, there was

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Speaker 1: no real faction that had an interest in pushing that fiction,

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Speaker 1: you know, that in which that version of history served

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Speaker 1: some purpose or another. Uh. But we'll get it, you know,

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Speaker 1: we'll get more into that. But you might remember in

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Speaker 1: our past episode we talked about how how was the

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Speaker 1: defeat at the Battle of Adessa framed? How are the

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Speaker 1: particulars of that defeat passed down? And you know, a

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Speaker 1: lot of times it's about from the Christian perspective, it's

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Speaker 1: about saying Valerian was punished by God because he was

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Speaker 1: cruel to Christians back home and had a pope put

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Speaker 1: to death. And then from the Roman standpoint, it's a

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Speaker 1: it's about pushing the idea that well, he was weak

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Speaker 1: and the Susanians were deceptive, uh, and therefore sort of

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Speaker 1: excuse the loss to some extent. But as we said earlier,

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Speaker 1: there's a there's a lot of leeway and how we

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Speaker 1: might actually interpret his death and in now the various

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Speaker 1: histories have mentioned the death of Valerian in Sesanian hands.

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Speaker 1: Since we're already talking about the horrific side of things,

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Speaker 1: let's stick with the horrific side of things, and then

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Speaker 1: we'll come back to the more mundane possibilities towards the end.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of a palate cleanser, I guess so. According

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Speaker 1: to early Christian writer and Christian apologist Lectantius, who lived

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Speaker 1: two fifty through three twenty five, things were pretty grim

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Speaker 1: for Valerian. And we have to mention, though, that the

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Speaker 1: thing about Lectantius is he has a whole axe to

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Speaker 1: grind here on the survival of Christianity. And he wrote

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Speaker 1: an entire work titled on the Death of Persecutors, in

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Speaker 1: which he writes the following about Valerian. And this is

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Speaker 1: of course a translation here and presently Valerian, also in

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Speaker 1: a mood alike Frantic, lifted up his impious hands to

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Speaker 1: assault God, and although his time was short, shed much

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Speaker 1: righteous blood. But God punished him in a new and

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Speaker 1: extraordinary manner, that it might be a lesson to future

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Speaker 1: ages that the adversaries of heaven always receive the just

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Speaker 1: recompense of their inequities. He having been made prisoner by

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Speaker 1: the Persians, lost not only that power which he had

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Speaker 1: exercised without moderation, but also the liberty of which he

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Speaker 1: had deprived others. And he wasted the remainder of his

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Speaker 1: days in the violence condition of slavery. For suppor, the

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Speaker 1: king of the Persians, who had made him prisoner, whenever

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Speaker 1: he chose to get into his carriage or to mount

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Speaker 1: on horseback, commanded the Roman to stoop and present his back. Then,

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Speaker 1: setting his foot on the shoulders of Valerian, he said,

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Speaker 1: with a smile of reproach, quote, this is true and

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Speaker 1: not what the Romans delineate on board or plaster unquote.

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Speaker 1: And just to pause right there, I love how in

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Speaker 1: this account Lactantas has has the king of the Sasanians

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Speaker 1: here basically turned to the reader and say, this is

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent true. I'm not making this up. Don't

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Speaker 1: believe those Romans. That's good anyway, Like conscious continues here,

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Speaker 1: Valerian lived for a considerable time under the well merited

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Speaker 1: insults of his conqueror, so that the Roman name remained

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Speaker 1: long the scoff and derision of the barbarians, and this

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Speaker 1: also was added to the severity of his punishment, that

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Speaker 1: although he had an emperor for his son, he found

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Speaker 1: no one to revenge his captivity and most abject and

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Speaker 1: servile state. Neither indeed was he ever demanded back. Afterward,

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Speaker 1: when he had finished this shameful life under so great dishonor,

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Speaker 1: he was flayed, and his skin stripped from the flesh,

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Speaker 1: was dyed with remilion and placed in the temple of

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Speaker 1: the gods of the Barbarians, that the remembrance of a

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Speaker 1: triumph so signal might be perpetuated, and that this spectacle

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Speaker 1: might always be exhibited to our ambassadors as an admonition

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Speaker 1: of the Romans that beholding the spoil of their captive

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Speaker 1: emperor in a Persian temple, they should not place too

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Speaker 1: great confidence in their own strength.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So it gets very clive barker at the end here,

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Speaker 2: and they say that that after his torment is in it,

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Speaker 2: which again Lactantius is saying totally justified. We don't know

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Speaker 2: if what he's saying here has any basis in fact,

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Speaker 2: but he's claiming that this he got his comeuppance for

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Speaker 2: being a persecutor of Christians, and when it was all done,

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Speaker 2: his skin was removed from his body was dyed red

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Speaker 2: and then was placed in the temple of the gods

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Speaker 2: of the Barbarians, right.

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Speaker 1: Right, pretty horrendous. And again I do love how he

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Speaker 1: has Sabur basically break the fourth wall and say, hey, Christians,

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Speaker 1: this is the real story. Don't believe what anyone someone

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Speaker 1: else tells you, thus acknowledging that there are other accounts

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Speaker 1: of what happened. So I was I was reading a

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Speaker 1: little bit more about this. I found a source here.

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Speaker 1: This was published in Classical Quarterly and two thousand and

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Speaker 1: six from Erica Reiner, titled The red Ling of Valerian,

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Speaker 1: and according to Reiner, Reiner writes that the La Tantis

400
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Speaker 1: account is by far the most detailed and the most disputed,

401
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Speaker 1: and she she shares and weighs in on some of

402
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: the other claims that come about to in some cases

403
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Speaker 1: add more more details to this particular account. She points

404
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Speaker 1: out that only a single account, that of Agathias, who

405
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Speaker 1: lived five point thirty through five eighty two, says that

406
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Speaker 1: Valerian was flayed alive. This is the only account where

407
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Speaker 1: that extra detail is added, almost in like a sort

408
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Speaker 1: of like, I can't just retell that story. I've got

409
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Speaker 1: to I got to make it a little grizzlier, and

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Speaker 1: so there's an upping of the ante here. Later some commentators,

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Speaker 1: including Constantine, add the detail that and then, well, this

412
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Speaker 1: is sort of a detail. I guess that he was embalmed,

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Speaker 1: that Valerian was embalmed, that there's some attempt to preserve

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Speaker 1: the body.

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Speaker 2: So it's interesting, I guess if we're getting info about

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Speaker 2: not info it claims about this from Constantine. Is Constantine

417
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Speaker 2: trying to add on, like jump on the bandwagon of like,

418
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Speaker 2: here's how Valerian goalwit he deserved because Constantine was of

419
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Speaker 2: course the first Christian Roman emperor.

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Speaker 1: I mean it basically falls. Yeah, it basically has to

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Speaker 1: do with this, with the whole role that Valerian has

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Speaker 1: after his fall in Christian power in the view of

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Speaker 1: Christian oppression in the past. So yeah, like he remains

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Speaker 1: a coin that may be cashed in from time to

425
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Speaker 1: time and speeches and so forth. Now another account, this

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00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 1: was from Peter the Patrician, who live five hundred through

427
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,360
Speaker 1: five sixty five. This kind of backs up the whole

428
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: idea of the skin having been preserved. Peter writes, quote,

429
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 1: even after death, with loathsome art, you kept his skin

430
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 1: and inflicted an undying insult on his dead body. But

431
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: then Reiner gets into questioning this whole thing about the

432
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: red dying of the skin, because this instantly stands out

433
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: like it's one thing. Okay, we can understand flaying, you know, horrific,

434
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: but there are other accounts in history of things like

435
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: this occurring, and it continues to echo through our fantastic

436
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: fiction and our grizzly entertainments. But then the dying of

437
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: it red, what does that mean? Like, what is there

438
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: something lost in translation? Is there some sort of a

439
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: something you know, strange picked up in the telling of

440
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: this tale. Hiner mentions that there is at least one

441
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,239
Speaker 1: theory that this account of red dyed hides refers to

442
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: Valerian having to set aside his purple robes and where

443
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 1: the hide of a mere beast like a donkey or

444
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 1: something in captivity, and this might have been dyed purple

445
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: and mockery, But then again, we're talking about purple in

446
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: this case, and it seems like all these other accounts

447
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: we're looking at, we're definitely talking about the color red. So, however,

448
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,719
Speaker 1: Reiner does point out that as outrageous and fabricated as

449
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 1: these accounts of the flame may very well be. They're

450
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: also not altogether out of keeping with the ancient world,

451
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: and in fact, Sargon the second of Assyria, who reigned

452
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: seven twenty one through seven oh five BCE, is said

453
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,360
Speaker 1: to have inflicted such a fate on his enemies. By

454
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: his own recorded word. He boasted of having defeated king's

455
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 1: flayed and their skins dyed red as red wool, and

456
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: Reiner discusses this for a bit and asking questions about

457
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: those sort of the linguistics of the matter. You know,

458
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: red as blood, red as sunset, read as the horizon.

459
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:47,199
Speaker 1: And it has remained a mystery.

460
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 2: It is such a strange claim, this idea that the

461
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 2: flayed hide was dyed red. But Rob, you found an

462
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 2: interesting little letter to a classics journal called Nimo sign

463
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,120
Speaker 2: that's a journal published by Brill, which addresses this question

464
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 2: of what this could be a reference to. If it's

465
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 2: not just literally the skin being dyed red, could this

466
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 2: have another meaning? And I thought this was so interesting.

467
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,479
Speaker 2: So the letter was by a classics professor based in

468
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 2: Ireland named David Woods, and the letter was called Lactantius

469
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 2: Valerian and halophilic Bacteria.

470
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: Here's that science angle that we've been mentioning.

471
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 2: So Wood says, you know, there's really no clear explanation

472
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 2: why Schebor would have dyed the skin of Valerian red.

473
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: He acknowledges Reiner's thoughts regarding the flaying tradition, but then says,

474
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 2: there's another possible explanation, and it goes like this, if

475
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: Shabour actually wanted to keep the skin of the emperor

476
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 2: as a permanent trophy of his victory, rather than something

477
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 2: that would just sort of rot away, he would of

478
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 2: course have to preserve it somehow, and the standard way

479
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 2: of preserving a hide at that time would be by curing.

480
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 2: This assumption is given weight by a statement of again

481
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: the later Roman emperor Constantine, who mentions that Shabur had

482
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 2: ordered Valerian skin to be not only flayed, but preserved.

483
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 2: I think this comes back to what you said earlier

484
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 2: about Constantine making a claim that he was embalmed. Woods

485
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 2: writes that the verb Constantine uses here for preserve in

486
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: this context is the same word used for the preservation

487
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: of fish at the time, which could refer to preservation

488
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 2: by salting, pickling, or smoking, and generally, if you were

489
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 2: going to cure a hide. In the ancient world, this

490
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 2: would have involved salt. You'd use lots of salt now.

491
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 2: Woods cites a couple of scholars named Rieland and Hochstein

492
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: to point out that sometimes the salt curing of a

493
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: hide would be compromised if the product was contaminated with

494
00:29:54,720 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: a halophelic bacteria hallophilic, meaning salt loving, that can survive

495
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 2: in extremely salty environments. Apparently, these bacteria are well known

496
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 2: pests in the leather industry, and they produce a side

497
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 2: effect called red heat, just like the Arnold Schwarzenegger movie.

498
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 2: And it's called that because the by product of the

499
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,239
Speaker 2: presence of these microorganisms is the reddening of surfaces that

500
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: they colonize. In fact, if you've ever seen a salt

501
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 2: lake turn red, this is caused by the same strains

502
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 2: of hollophilic microorganisms. Rabbi attached one picture for you to

503
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: look at in their outline here. This is a photo

504
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 2: I found of the Great Salt Lake in Utah, taken

505
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety nine, and it's taken at a place

506
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,479
Speaker 2: where the lake is divided by a railroad causeway. On

507
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: one half of the causeway, the water looks like normal water,

508
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 2: it's kind of blue green, and then on the other

509
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 2: half the water is bright red.

510
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, indeed, bright red almost almost leaning a little bit

511
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: towards purple almost. Definitely, you get this reddish vibe from it. Yeah.

512
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: So I went to double check this. I was looking, okay,

513
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 2: leather industry sources. I wanted to see about halophilic bacterial

514
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 2: contamination there, and it looks like, yes, this absolutely is

515
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 2: in fact a problem in the leather industry. I found

516
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 2: an article on how to prevent it, or at least

517
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: addressing the signs of it, on a trade website called

518
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: Leather International. I think this is some kind of leather

519
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 2: trade magazine. I don't know, but the article is just

520
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 2: called putrefaction. To read from it here, they write quote,

521
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 2: sometimes even when hides have been well salted or brined,

522
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: bacteria can still grow. These are a particular type of

523
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: bacteria which are halophilic or salt loving, and are commonly

524
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 2: colored red or purple, affecting hides that are said to

525
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 2: have red heat under normal storage conditions. For raw hides

526
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 2: or skins, red and purple heat bacteria take a relatively

527
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 2: long time to grow, around two to three months. Therefore,

528
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 2: their presence is an indication that the hides or skins

529
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: have been in storage for some time. However, at higher

530
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 2: temperatures around thirty to forty degrees celsius, growth will be

531
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 2: more rapid. The warm humid conditions favored by red heat

532
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 2: bacteria are also favored by other non colored spoilage bacteria,

533
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: so if salt levels are not high enough, putrefactive bacteria

534
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 2: may also be present. It was once thought that red

535
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,959
Speaker 2: heat bacteria caused no harm to the hide, but it

536
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 2: is now known that some types of bacteria do produce

537
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 2: proteolytic enzymes, which are capable of damaging collagen. Proteolytic enzymes

538
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 2: I think would be enzymes that dissolve proteins. Now this

539
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 2: article also offers preventative measures to keep away putrefactive bacteria,

540
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 2: the kind of bacteria that would cause leather to actually rot.

541
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 2: But they say for red heat there are not really

542
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 2: as many things you can do. I guess maybe it's

543
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 2: harder to keep out, but anyway, I kept looking more

544
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 2: into the idea of these red halo files the salt

545
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 2: loving bacteria. Interesting thing I found is that while many

546
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 2: older sources, including the ones I was just looking at,

547
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 2: refer to red halophiles as bacteria. It seems that most

548
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 2: of the prominent examples of red colored halophiles are actually

549
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 2: now classified as archaea. Now, archia are very similar to

550
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 2: bacteria in many ways. They're both lineages of single celled

551
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: organisms without a true nuclear membrane, but they're distinct from

552
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 2: each other. They split off from one another extremely early

553
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 2: in the history of life on Earth, probably something like

554
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 2: four billion years ago, and there are some common structural

555
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 2: differences between them, even though they're both single celled organisms.

556
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 2: In a lot of ways, Archia are just sometimes referred

557
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 2: to as a type of bacteria, But yeah, they're these

558
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: different clades, and some of the structural differences that are

559
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 2: found between them have to do with things like cell

560
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 2: walls and membranes, like the chemical characteristics of the lipids

561
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 2: in their cell memora brains are different. But another common

562
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 2: feature relevant to this discussion is that Arkia are most

563
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 2: often found in extreme environments that are less friendly to

564
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 2: other Earth life. So arkia are abundant in extremely hot environments,

565
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 2: such as around deep sea vents or hot springs, or

566
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 2: deep underground in low oxygen, high pressure geological deposits like

567
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 2: around fossil fuel deposits or in extremely chemically unfriendly environments

568
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 2: such as the various salt hells of the world. Now,

569
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: I was curious why there would be a tendency for

570
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 2: the microbes that battle for life in these salt hells

571
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 2: to be read in color, and I found a paper

572
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 2: that at least identifies a common biochemical factor. So this

573
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 2: paper was by Ajaran Orn and Francisco Rodriguez Valera published

574
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,439
Speaker 2: in FEMS Microbiology Ecology in two thousand and one, called

575
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 2: the contra of halophilic Bacteria to the red coloration of

576
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 2: saltern crystallizer ponds. So in this article, the authors start

577
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 2: by looking at natural hypersaline environments like salt lakes, but

578
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 2: also at human constructed environments like these saltern crystallizer pools.

579
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 2: A salturn is essentially a factory for harvesting sea salt,

580
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 2: and in the old school process, what you do is

581
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 2: you leave a bunch of sea water out in these

582
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 2: pools and you leave it under the hot sun, so

583
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 2: the water content can evaporate, leaving crystallized sodium chloride behind

584
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 2: and you can harvest it. Rob Again, I attached some

585
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 2: pictures for you to look at. These pools are often

586
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 2: kind of arranged in these big reflective rectangles out by

587
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 2: the ocean side. And an interesting thing is that if

588
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 2: you look up pictures of saltern pools, occasionally you will

589
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 2: find that they are red in color. And I was

590
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 2: reading another paper that claimed that testing of the microbial

591
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 2: communities in soil or saltern pools usually reveals that there's

592
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 2: very little microbial diversity. They tend to be dominated almost

593
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 2: entirely by halophilic archaea, like we're just talking about. But

594
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 2: halophilic archaia are not the only things in there. So

595
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 2: to read from a section of or in at all

596
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: the paper I referenced a minute ago quote, two types

597
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 2: of carotenoid rich microorganisms have generally been implicated in causing

598
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 2: the red coloration. You've got halophilic archaea of the family

599
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 2: hallow Bacteriacee and the unicellular green alga Dunaleela selina. The

600
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 2: main pigments of the Halobacteriacee are C fifty carotenoids, mainly

601
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 2: alpha bacteria ruberin and derivatives, while Dunaliella accumulates massive amounts

602
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 2: of beta keratine under suitable conditions. The relative contributions of

603
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 2: red Archaea and beta carotene rich Dunaliella cells to the

604
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 2: color duration of saltine crystallizer ponds have been studied in

605
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: the past, beta keratine was often found in quantities greatly

606
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 2: exceeding the archael bacteria ruberns. In spite of this, the

607
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 2: optical properties of the salterenbrines were determined primarily by the

608
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 2: Archel community. This apparent discrepancy was explained by the extremely

609
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 2: small in vivo optical cross section of the beta keratine

610
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 2: in Dunaliella cells. As the carotenoid is densely packed in

611
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 2: granules within the algal chloroplast, the presence of even large

612
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 2: amounts of this pigment may contribute much less to the

613
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 2: overall red color than the archel pigments, which are distributed

614
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 2: evenly on the cell membrane. And The study also did

615
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 2: find a small presence of halophilic bacteria in some salturns,

616
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 2: but not others. Like it found actual halophilic bacteria of

617
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:57,240
Speaker 2: a type called Salinibacter that was present in the cryst

618
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 2: in the crystallizer ponds that were sampled from California, but

619
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 2: not the ones that were sampled from Israel, So it

620
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 2: seems there's some geographic variation there, but ultimately they say

621
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,320
Speaker 2: yes to create this red color, the most important components

622
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 2: are these extremophile archaea, the salt loving archaea. And I

623
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 2: thought it was interesting that what's causing the red color

624
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 2: here are these carotenoids, which are present, of course throughout

625
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 2: all different kinds of life. If you eat red or

626
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 2: orange colored vegetables or fruits, those red and orange colors

627
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 2: are generally going to be a result of carotenoid pigments.

628
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 2: And of course you know when you eat a red carrot.

629
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 2: People talk about carrots being a good source of vitamin A,

630
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 2: which they are, But what's actually happening metabolically there is

631
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: you're eating them and they contain these red orange pigments,

632
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 2: the carotenoids, which then through your metabolism, are turned into

633
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 2: vitamin A. So if woods idea is correct, that actually

634
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 2: what this you know, dying red of the of the

635
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 2: hide of Emperor Valerian, If that is actually some ancient

636
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 2: commentator looking at the skin seeing its red and then

637
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 2: mistaking it being colonized by halophilic archaea, for it being

638
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,240
Speaker 2: dyed red on purpose, then what's causing that red color

639
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 2: is probably part of the same family of pigment compounds,

640
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 2: the carotenoids that make your carrots red or orange.

641
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: Fascinating. So yeah, it seems very biologically possible that you

642
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 1: could have an attempt to preserve the hide like this

643
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: a flayed skin of human being, and then lo and behold,

644
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: it ends up taking on this red color, which ultimately

645
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:52,959
Speaker 1: makes me really potentially feel for this hyde worker. It's

646
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: suddenly called in one day to the palace and you

647
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 1: find out you have a particular task ahead of you

648
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: you need to preserve of the skin, and then it

649
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: ends up turning red, Like how do you How do

650
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: you spin that? How do you sell that? I meant

651
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: to do that? Yes, or your majesty, might this look

652
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: better if it were red? Think about it? They think

653
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: about all the connotations of the color. Really get him

654
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: on board with this, make it think it was his

655
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: idea before presenting him with this hide that ended up

656
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:25,919
Speaker 1: turning this color on you. Right.

657
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 2: So anyway, that's what wood Woods argues in this letter

658
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 2: that maybe the ancient reports are mistaken. It was not

659
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 2: actually dyed red. Schubert didn't do that on purpose. Instead,

660
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 2: somehow tried to cure it with salt, and then it

661
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 2: was colonized by halophilic bacteria or actually, more likely halophilic archaea,

662
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 2: causing the red heat phenomenon that's been known to the

663
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 2: leather industry actually since ancient times. Woods writes, quote, the

664
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 2: importance of this discovery is that it confirms that the

665
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 2: ultimate source of Lactantious information in this matter must have

666
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 2: seen Valerian's skin firsthand. He then made the understandable but

667
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 2: erroneous assumption that Schuber had ordered the skin to be

668
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,439
Speaker 2: dyed red. A humble leather producer would not have made

669
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 2: such a mistake, but few diplomats, ancient or modern, have

670
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 2: a background in the leather industry. Now, I think that's

671
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 2: all pretty well put, except I don't think I agree

672
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 2: that it confirms Lactantius's source would have seen it firsthand,

673
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 2: but I'd agree that makes it more likely.

674
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And again, on one hand, we have,

675
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: of course the older account from Sargon that reminds us

676
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 1: that such horrendous things did occur in the ancient world.

677
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: And and then this is something that Reiner gets into

678
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 1: a little bit as well, and pointing out that, okay,

679
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: we have these two alleged incidents of flaying and the

680
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: reddening of a skin. They occur about a thousand years apart.

681
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 1: But Reiner contends that either perhaps there is some truth

682
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 1: to the conscious account, or perhaps there's this kind of

683
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 1: cultural memory of Sargon's deeds. Ultimately, I think you could

684
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,240
Speaker 1: spin this. See this is kind of a trope about

685
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: the evil things that Eastern kings do to defeated emperors.

686
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: There's some memory of Sargon did this, and then it

687
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: gets sort of wrapped into the account. If you need

688
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,720
Speaker 1: perhaps something horrible to happen to Valerian in your history

689
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: to again prop up the idea that God has punished Valerian,

690
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 1: then perhaps you draw in this historical detail and it

691
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,760
Speaker 1: becomes part of your story. Now, on the more mundane

692
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: side of things, we do have some other accounts. There's

693
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: the writer Eutropius, who was writing between three sixty four

694
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 1: and three seventy eight, and he contended that quote Valerian,

695
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: while he was occupied in a war in Mesopotamia, was

696
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: overthrown by Shapur, king of Persia, and being soon after

697
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 1: made prisoner, grew old in ignominious slavery among the Parthians.

698
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: So in that account, it's like, basically, well, they took

699
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: him away, they locked him up, and yeah, he died there.

700
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: He was already, by many accounts, an older man, he

701
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 1: was in his sixties, and how long is he going

702
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 1: to live in captivity? In enemy captivity? Now to Raj

703
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: Dhari also gets in on this and seems to side

704
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: with this interpretation as well, that he the Valerian and

705
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 1: some of his men were sent back into Sasanian territory,

706
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: into Bishophur in modern Iran, where one of the carved

707
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 1: reliefs there show him kneeling before the mounted king. In

708
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 1: this area would become known as Valerian's prison. And I

709
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: also can't help but wonder, this is just me here,

710
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,479
Speaker 1: This isn't anything any of these authors were discussing. But again,

711
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: we have these rock reliefs showing Valerian bowing in Roman

712
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: emperor's bowing the king of the Sasanians who has mounted

713
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 1: on horseback. I wonder if it's possible you could have

714
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 1: a situation where it's like some sort of misunderstanding of

715
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,839
Speaker 1: the visuals here that lead to the idea of him

716
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 1: being a footstool to mount a horse. I don't know, anyway,

717
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: there's not really any consensus on when Valerian dies in captivity.

718
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 1: It may have been the same year. So sometimes you

719
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: see him listed as having lived till two sixty he

720
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: might have been executed more or less immediately or within

721
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 1: that year. Other times you see a date of two

722
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,760
Speaker 1: sixty four mentioned, saying that he lived about four years

723
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 1: in enemy captivity before he either dies of some natural causes,

724
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:45,280
Speaker 1: is just sort of removed, or some more extravagant means

725
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 1: of execution. Either way, yeah, you tend to see sixty

726
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: or two sixty four. So, yeah, he might have just

727
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: lived out the rest of his life in prison. He

728
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: may have been made a mockery of. He may have

729
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 1: been tortured to death or flayed following a quicker execution.

730
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 1: And of course the different versions of the tale again

731
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 1: they kind of fulfill different needs, both in the turbulent

732
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: years following the Battle of Edessa but also for years

733
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 1: to follow. So we almost end up in this kind

734
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: of quantum state where anything any of these accounts seem possible,

735
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: you know, and ultimately we'll never know what actually became

736
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: of Emperor Valarian.

737
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 2: Now here's a possibility you probably haven't considered. What if

738
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 2: he was fully externally colonized by hallophilic Archia before he died.

739
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 1: Hmmm, so he was already read.

740
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 2: Maybe he's just rubbing salt on his skin all day

741
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 2: long and I don't know it's getting in there.

742
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Or here's another possibility. Maybe Valerian removes

743
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 1: his own skin, then escapes and has someone else wear

744
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: that skin after he has left, you know, kind of

745
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,439
Speaker 1: does a little Hannibal electter thing there or reverse Hannibal lecter.

746
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 2: Well, it's like face off.

747
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it could be like face stuff, except

748
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 1: it's like whole skin off.

749
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 2: Next Nicholas Cage role playing Valerium.

750
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: You know, in thinking about these accounts of rulers being

751
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 1: treated in some cases horrifically or in other cases perhaps

752
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: you know, more politely but generally horrifically by these various rulers,

753
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: I was reminded of I kept being reminded of this

754
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: line in Dune. In the novel, this is a depicting

755
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: a scene that is in the recent Part one film

756
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: that came out, though this exact line of dialogue I

757
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: don't think is present, but basically, the Harconins have moved

758
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 1: against the atreades. And we have that scene where the

759
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: baron has Leto Treades captive, and in the book there's

760
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: this bit of dialogue it goes like this quote, this

761
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 1: is not a child's game we play. The baron rumbled.

762
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: You must know that he leaned toward Leto, studying the face.

763
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: It pained the baron that this could not be handled privately,

764
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: just between the two of them. To have others see

765
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: loyalty in such straits, it sets a bad example. And

766
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: I kept thinking about that because so many, especially on

767
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: the Roman side, I mean, you have these these emperors,

768
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: these absolute rulers whose position is actually rather precarious, and

769
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: death is never that far away, and the shadow of

770
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 1: uprising and dethronement, you know, is always present in the

771
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: mind of any ruler, even one who enjoys a rather

772
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: secure reign. You know. It's a take Autasher the first.

773
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 1: You know, he was able to retire and die a

774
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 1: natural death, but he didn't do that by not keeping

775
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 1: an eye out for all those who tried to rise

776
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 1: up against him. And so it makes me think about that,

777
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 1: Like I guess you get into some of that Shakespearean

778
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 1: morality as well, like the mistreatment of other rulers, like

779
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,839
Speaker 1: there has to be this moment where you realize, like this,

780
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: this could easily be me, and what kind of example

781
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: do we continue to set for these around us who

782
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: may one day be the ones to rise up against us.

783
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,919
Speaker 1: And it's an interesting moment in Herbert's Dune as well,

784
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 1: because you know, obviously the Baron Harcone or hearkening to

785
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: be more authentic here, you know, he's not. He doesn't

786
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: feel any actual mercy towards Letto. But it's the idea

787
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 1: that well, the lesser people, the commoners, the soldiers, they

788
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: shouldn't see this between us, like there's this, And of

789
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: course in the world of Dune, you know, these great

790
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 1: houses are connected in various ways as well. All right, well,

791
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 1: I guess we're going to go and close this out here.

792
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 1: But I've greatly enjoyed this examination of history and histories

793
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:48,799
Speaker 1: concerning the fall of Emperor Valerian. I apologize if I

794
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: messed up any pronunciations in this. We had to to

795
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 1: juggle two different tongues here, and I hope that I

796
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 1: didn't get anything wrong. I tried to try to make

797
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 1: sure he hit the unciations correctly. There are a lot

798
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: of names today. I think you did good well. Thanks.

799
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: Oh and by the way, that Turaj Dhari. That book

800
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: is Susanian Iran two twenty four through six point fifty

801
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 1: one AD, Portrait of a Late Antique Empire from Mazda

802
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: Publishers that came out in two thousand and eight. It's

803
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 1: a really good read. I recommend it for anyone who's

804
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:28,319
Speaker 1: interested in this time period, in this particular dynastic rule.

805
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,879
Speaker 1: It's not not a very thick book, very readable, has

806
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: some nice illustrations and maps in it. All right, well,

807
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: we're gonna, yeah, we're gonna go and close the book

808
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: here on old Emperor Valeria. But we'd love to hear

809
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: from everybody out there if you have any thoughts on

810
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 1: the histories at play here, If perhaps we have some

811
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 1: folks out there who have some experience preserving hides and

812
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: leather and so forth, and perhaps you can weigh in

813
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 1: on this reddening that we've discussed. And hey, let us

814
00:49:57,239 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 1: know if there are other episodes in history you'd like

815
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: us to. However, I don't know. Maybe there's some other

816
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,959
Speaker 1: dethroned nimbers of note in the history books that would

817
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: make for a good episode. Let us know. In the meantime,

818
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 1: you'll find core episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind

819
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Mondays we do listener mail,

820
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: on Wednesdays we do short form artifact or monster fact episodes,

821
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: and on Fridays we do Weird House Cinema. That's our

822
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: time to set aside most serious concerns and just focus

823
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: on a weird film. And you'll find all of this

824
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,280
Speaker 1: in the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed.

825
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth

826
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 2: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch

827
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,399
Speaker 2: with us with feedback on this episode or any other,

828
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 2: to suggest topic for the future, or just to say hello,

829
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 2: you can email us at contact at stuff to blow

830
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 2: your Mind dot com.

831
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

832
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 3: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

833
00:50:55,719 --> 00:51:11,200
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