WEBVTT - Why a Digital Detox Won't Solve All Your Problems 0:00:00.760 --> 0:00:02.559 If you're like me, you spend a lot of time 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:05.200 thinking about how you can get more done at work. 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:08.440 But what if instead we focused more on doing our 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:12.200 best work. This week we're talking about tapping into your 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:27.400 creative side. This is game Plan. Hi. I'm Francesco Leiti 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:30.400 and I'm Rebecca Greenfield, and this week we are talking 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:34.480 about the best ways to work for fulfilling your creative potential. 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:37.760 Which sounds like an ad for a webinar or something, 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:43.000 or like some kind of infomercial. Yeah, But another way 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:47.360 to think about creativity is another fun buzzword, which is innovation, 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:50.320 which I think is the same thing. Yeah, as with everything, 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:52.680 there's like a business reason why companies would want people 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:54.760 to be more creative in their jobs. Yeah. I think 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:57.480 that is what separates good businesses from bad businesses. And 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:01.400 companies know that if they have created of or innovative employees, 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:03.840 that's how they can stand out. And then as an employee, 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:07.399 if you're creative and innovative, that's how you stand out, right, 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:09.840 or how you not get replaced by a robot. Yeah, 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:11.679 we have to stay one step ahead of the robots. 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:13.880 But how do we get to a place then where 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:17.480 we can become more creative. And to be clear, we're 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:21.520 not talking strictly about productivity hacks, although that might enter 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:24.240 into it, and we have an episode about it if 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:26.880 you want to listen to it, that's right out. But 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:29.920 being creative is not always doesn't always go hand in 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:32.000 hand with being productive. So we should talk a little 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:35.399 bit about what we mean by being creative before we 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:37.480 get into the how. So I think being productive is 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:42.000 getting anything done, getting tasks done, or like you know, 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:44.400 you could say answering emails as a type of productivity, 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:48.680 or like finishing your to do list, right, But creativity, 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:54.080 I guess in my mind, is harder. I actually came 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:58.480 across a sort of working definition of creativity that researchers use. 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.800 There is a research journal about creativity. It's called it's 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:07.240 called the Creativity Research Journal. That's amazing, and um, I 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:11.120 actually found this really useful. So the kind of working 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:17.880 definition of creativity is originality plus effectiveness. So originality like 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:21.160 you're coming at an idea or a problem in a 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:24.000 way that other people haven't done it. You're you're doing 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:26.640 something different, you have a fresh angle. But originality alone 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:31.040 isn't enough because you could be a crazy person spouting 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:34.320 random nonsense, and that doesn't necessary That definitely makes you original, 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:37.000 but it doesn't necessarily make you creative. So the effectiveness 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:40.840 part is about creating value. I like that definition because 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:43.480 it opens up creativity to means so much more than 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:45.359 just like making art. It can mean coming at any 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:48.320 problem in a new way and and being somewhat successful 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:50.640 at it. We work in a world that's designed in 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:53.560 many ways to kind of like make it harder to 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:55.960 get to that place where we can access that creativity 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:58.160 and those creative thoughts. So let's talk about some of 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:02.480 the things that might inhibit creative um. One of them 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:05.920 is multitasking. Multitasking used to be I feel like there 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:09.000 was a time when multitasking was all the rage. Multitasking 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:11.560 was supposed to be a core competency people had, and 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:13.480 then I think the research community kind of came around 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:16.600 to the idea that no one can really do more 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:18.360 than one thing at the same time. It's just not 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:22.040 physically possible, and in fact, you cost yourself a lot 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:26.520 of productivity and brain power by trying to switch between 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:30.240 tasks all the time. It feels like multitasking as some 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:34.360 sort of productivity creativity hack was just an excuse for 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:39.120 people to not do work right. Well. I think it 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:41.680 kind of came on in response to maybe like a 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.080 new information age where everybody was like, oh, I can 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:47.080 I can make more use out of my time. I 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:49.080 can do all these things. I can check email, and 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:51.920 I can have a meeting, and I can write a report, 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:55.520 and everybody should be able to do that. They're all these, 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:58.440 you know, skills you're suddenly expected to have for a while. 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:01.080 Multitasking seems like one of them. But I can't see 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:06.000 how it's really bad for creativity because you're just distracting 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:08.800 yourself from different things all the time. Yeah. I think 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:13.600 one thing most people agree helps with creativity is just 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:16.760 kind of clearing the decks for thinking about things in 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:18.839 a fresh way. So that's why it can be helpful 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:20.960 to get through your to do list, because you know, 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.320 maybe you need to empty or quiet that part of 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:26.279 your brain that's always telling you need to get stuff done. 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:29.560 But multitasking seems like it goes against that because you're 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:32.520 you're just never really finishing anything, You're just constantly living 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:34.880 between things. And I think what goes hand in hand 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:39.480 with multitasking being a huge hinder and stating anything done 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:42.200 is the thing that enables us to multitask, which is 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:48.239 different types of technology. So like you're answering chats and 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:51.560 checking your email and I don't know, you're in a 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:55.320 Google doc. It's like seems impossible to just concentrate on 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:57.520 one thing when you have all these notifications coming at 0:04:57.520 --> 0:04:59.799 you all the time. Yeah, and we have an episode 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:03.520 of that too, write about distractions, an episode for anything 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:06.720 and everything. But yeah, like tech feels to me like 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:10.120 this really easily available scapegoat, not saying that it isn't real, 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:14.159 but that we all we all look at these infringements 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:19.280 on our sort of time and creative process and say, like, 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:21.560 if only we could get rid of all the notifications 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:25.640 in the apps, you know, we'd reach this creative utopia. 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:28.839 Like the digital detox has become a thing. Yeah, it's 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:32.120 such a thing that there was an amazing Bloomberg Pursuits 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:36.080 article about spas in New York City where they offer 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:39.480 a digital detox package. So it's it's going to the 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:42.120 spa and you give them your phone, right, But it's 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:45.520 so in demand among busy professionals that they can sell 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:48.560 these services, right they can. There's like a premium on 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:52.400 telling people we will rescue you from your devices by 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:54.640 like putting your phone behind the reception desk. What you 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:58.400 get a massage, and it caused hundreds of dollars. Maybe 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:00.600 we don't need to go that far. Maybe we just 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:04.200 need to separate from our apps enough to get a 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.200 little bit bored. That's what our guest today is going 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:15.800 to talk to us about. Manu summer Roadie is the 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.039 host of the podcast Note to Self an author of 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:21.840 the recent book Board and Brilliant. Years ago, when Manu 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:24.599 had her first child, he had a bad case of colic, 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:26.279 which meant that she had to push him around in 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:29.239 a stroller all of the time without making any noise 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:31.640 because it was the only way he would sleep, and 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:35.119 she describes these hours she spent walking as kind of excruciating. 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.880 But she realized later that all that time that her 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:42.200 mind was free to wander without any interference, and she 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:46.200 found herself actually getting bored led to her having one 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:49.480 of the most creative periods of her life, and that 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.440 ended up turning into an experiment on her show, which 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:59.040 became the book Board and Brilliant. So what made you 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:06.920 discover that being board actually has a functional purpose. I mean, 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:12.640 it was a completely mundane personal experience, uh in the workplace, 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:15.680 of course, which was it was a couple of years 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.400 ago and the podcast was doing well, but you know, 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:21.560 I wanted to kill it, right, so I type a 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:24.040 person sat down, was like, Okay, just come up with 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:27.920 some really big creative ideas. And I really felt like 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:31.880 there was nothing going on upstairs. And it was different 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.679 than writer's block, because I've had that before where you 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:36.960 just you know, wait for the muse. This felt like 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:40.560 there was sand in my brain. And so I started 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:42.680 to think back, like, wait a minute, when was the 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:46.120 last time I had good ideas? And it was really 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:48.920 sort of you know, moments before I had kids and 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.200 I used to take long showers, or I used to 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:53.320 stare out the window of the car, or i'd take 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.600 the subway ride. Um, And now I realized all those 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:58.960 little cracks in my day, all those moments when I 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:01.840 used to space out and like think of weird ideas. 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.040 Now of course I was looking at my phone. There 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:07.720 was not a single moment that I didn't take, whether 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.000 it was waiting in line for coffee or waiting for 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:12.320 my kids at school or whatever, that I wasn't looking 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:14.000 at my phone, and so it started to make me 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:17.320 think like, huh, well, what actually happens in our brains 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:21.480 when we allow it to be bored? Or even more importantly, 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:24.800 what happens if we never get bored? Is that like 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.360 we're always told that only boring people get bored, but 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:31.440 actually maybe it's not such a great thing to never 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:35.680 experience boredom. Yeah, so what does happen in our minds 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:40.040 when we get bored? Well, it's super cool actually, And 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:42.960 we are at this amazing moment in neuroscience where they're 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.319 starting to understand when what's going on when the mind 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:49.160 begins to wander, And it turns out you ignite a 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:51.920 network in your brain called the default mode. Uh. Some 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:55.160 scientists refer to it actually as the imagination network. And 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:57.679 this is where we do our most original thinking. It's 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:01.360 where we take to disparate is and smash it together 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.720 to create something new. And it's also where we do 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:07.679 something that I had never heard of before called autobiographical planning. 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:10.160 And this is where you look back at your life, 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:13.440 you take note of the highs and the lows, and 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.920 you build a personal narrative and then you look forward 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:18.760 and you think, well, what are the goals that I 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:20.120 want to set, What are the things I want to 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:22.080 do next? And how what steps do I need to 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:27.120 take to reach those goals? Um So it's super important work, 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:31.400 but you can't tap that brain power if you're constantly 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:36.719 tapping a screen. Yeah, it sounds so exciting and productive, 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.440 which is like the opposite of what we think of 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.640 as boredom. How do we get ourselves into a place 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:46.000 where we can basically allow our minds to wander without 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:49.040 any real goal, especially if we have a goal and 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.560 that's to become more creative and to inspire that kind 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:55.000 of thinking totally. So, I mean, I think, you know, 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:57.640 like to be clear, when the mind wanders, it can 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.439 go to bad places. There is dysphoric mind wondering. That's 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:03.120 where you ruminate like tomorrow and I'll be like I 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:06.240 should have told you know, said on that podcast, like 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.600 I should have explained that story or whatever, and you 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:10.360 you know, you can't stop be like I should have 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:12.760 said that, or you ruminate on something that you should 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:16.680 have done. There's also distracted mind wandering, whereas you never 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:19.640 sort of settle into something, you just bounce around. But 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:23.080 there's also positive, constructive mind wandering, which is the kind 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:27.160 that we're talking about right here. And my theory, and 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:29.920 I've kind of proved it with with some a bunch 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:35.040 of people, is that if you know that boredom can 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:39.560 have a constructive outcome, if you allow yourself to pass 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:44.280 through some of the very uncomfortable, sometimes even painful experiences 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:46.720 that it can be to be bored and and allow 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:50.400 yourself to follow the thread of an idea, that is 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:54.959 when you can reach um, either you're coming up with 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:58.280 a new idea or solving a problem. UM. I think 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.600 it's being more comfortable with the idea of being bored. 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:04.120 And it's kind of funny to even say that because 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:06.400 I think, you know, a decade ago, before we had 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.400 a smartphone, no one would have actually had to say, 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.440 you know, let's name it, let's talk about boredom, let's 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:15.880 let's make time for boredom, let's celebrate boredom. But I 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.560 think we're finding that with a lot of human things 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:20.600 that we took for granted before, a lot of the 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.880 technology we have to do those things I contact, for example, 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:28.400 conversation UM patients, we're starting to see more and more 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:31.679 things that we're just sort of normal human states that 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:36.040 have to be um reclaimed because our gadgets simply don't 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:40.720 prioritize them. Yeah, you've brought up technology a couple of times, 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:43.280 and how that's filled the cracks in your day when 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:45.800 you might have had the time for this thinking. So 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:49.520 how do you break away from your phone basically to 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:54.880 get to this boredom time. So what the book Board 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:57.439 and Brilliant is based on is a week of challenges 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.199 that I did with twenty of my listeners a full 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:02.960 years ago, where every day they listened to a short 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.560 little podcast that explains some of the neuroscience, some of 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.679 the design of the technology, and then we gave them 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:12.319 a little newsletter that suggested a little sort of behavior 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:16.920 tweak to try and then report back because ironically, we 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:20.240 partnered with apps, so we had people reporting how many 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:22.360 minutes a day they were spending on their phone, how 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:24.320 many pickups they were on their phone, and we also 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:28.440 got thousands of stories from people. And so what we 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:31.280 did was just little little changes that we're asking people 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.079 to make so that they become more purposeful about how 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.400 they use their technology and more comfortable with the concept 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:40.280 of getting bored So, for example, UM, one of the 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.480 challenges is called delete that app. And the idea is 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.760 just take the app that's driving you bonkers bananas. I 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:49.240 want you to both think of it right now. Okay, yeah, 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:51.800 everybody listening to the app, you know the one, just 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:53.880 take it off your phone, just for the day. We're 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:57.080 not saying like quit, We're not saying like never put 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.520 it back on, just for one day. See what it's 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:02.880 like not to have Twitter calling out to you to 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:05.920 be refreshed or you know, every time you have a 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:07.920 thought and you're like, oh, that would be an amazing tweet. 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:10.800 Maybe not tweeting it, maybe not sharing it because maybe 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:12.760 it's not good enough. But and if you sat on 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:16.240 it for a little while, you'd realize that. So um, 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:18.760 So it was really interesting to see how people reacted 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:20.920 to that. Um should I ask you, guys, what would 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:24.320 be your app? I think I shamed Francesca into doing 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:26.800 Yeah you did. I she made me to lead Twitter, 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:30.800 um and I did. And it was Twitter. Okay, it 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:33.280 was Twitter, and I um, I was having a real 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:37.920 Twitter problem. Um, particularly after the election. I was just 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:40.480 like super absorbed in news and it wasn't productive or 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.400 constructive for me at all. And everything got better when 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:48.640 I did that, but I downloaded it again it's back. 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:53.000 I don't know, like did I undo? I think that's okay. No, no, no, 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:55.920 Like what this is not about is judging or shaming. 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:58.160 Like there were some people and I think, like this 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:00.560 is part of the self knowledge element, Like there are 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:02.960 some people who cannot handle Twitter. And I did have 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.439 listeners who are like, it's off my phone and it's 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:07.840 staying off my phone because I don't like how I 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:10.480 am around it. But there were other people who were like, huh, 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:12.560 that was really interesting to see what that was. Like 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.000 now I'm more aware and I'm okay with it, you know. 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:16.600 And and then there were other people who are like, 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:19.040 I've decided for one day a month, I'm going to 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.120 take Twitter off my phone just because I liked how 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:22.960 it felt. But I don't want it all the time. 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:25.880 I mean, it's kind of like drinking, right, Like there 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:27.800 are some people are like, you know what, I just 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.040 don't drink. It doesn't agree with me. And there are 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:31.680 other people who like to have a glass of wine 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:34.280 every night and they're fine with that. Like it's like 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.560 I don't think the answer is on or off, Like 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:41.080 it's not a binary with technology it's about figuring out 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:44.440 where you land on the sort of spectrum. It's about 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:48.120 self regulation, it's about making sure that Twitter and all 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:51.520 those other awesome things, because they are awesome, but let's 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:53.960 make sure that they're helping us and improving our lives 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.440 as opposed to becoming our task masters, which a lot 0:14:57.440 --> 0:15:03.200 of times they have become. I mean, look at the president, right. Yeah. 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:06.680 So I think about some of the challenges in your 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:11.400 book and how they should be really simple, like deleting 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.400 an app um, but actually they feel really hard. Like 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:17.200 one of them you have is is basically to keep 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:19.920 your device out of reach as long as you're in motion, 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:23.920 So you shouldn't you shouldn't have your phone really available 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:26.240 if you're if you're traveling or walking. And I read 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:30.120 that it sounds really simple, and it actually it made 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:32.920 me kind of like physically ill, thinking like how would 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.960 I walk around without my phone? So sometimes my phone 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:38.280 is in my hand when I'm walking from place to place, 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:41.080 but it's at least in my pocket, And so I 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:44.320 just wonder, like, how did you come up against a 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.080 lot of resistance when you suggested these things? How did 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:49.560 you talk people through it? Like how do you get 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:51.640 people to make that leap when our devices are kind 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:55.200 of designed to keep us addicted to them. So it's 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.040 funny that you mentioned that it sounds really easy. That 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.800 is the one challenge that always wins over the skeptics, 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.520 the people who are like, what are you even talking about? 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:06.080 This is so not a problem. I just put my 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.080 phone away asked them to do that challenge. I have 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:11.520 had so many people come back to me and be like, 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:15.400 oh my god, I was so wrong, in part because 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.680 we realized that, um, it's it's become a reflex. I 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:20.400 had one guy say to me, God, it was just 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:23.280 like when I was a smoker, Like he associated he'd 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:26.040 get off the subway, he'd laid a cigarette. Now what 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:28.000 do we do we get off the subway, We check 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:31.440 our email. It's become a linked habit to so many 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.000 things in our day, to the point where we don't 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:36.360 even know that we're doing it, and we're not even 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:39.600 really looking for anything in particular. Um. And that's where 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:42.000 you know, for people who are more data minded, that's 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:44.200 where our partnership with the apps, I think really made 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:47.360 a difference. So I'll use myself as an example. I 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:50.000 had figured that I was checking my phone like thirty 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:52.240 times a day. I thought that seemed like a lot, 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:54.720 and yeah, I like my phone, um, but no, I 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.600 was checking nine hundred times a day and I didn't 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:01.720 even realize it. So for me, it's about I don't 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:03.960 want this to be a digital detox, because I kind 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:06.440 of think those are both, Like, we have to live 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:10.320 with this technology and I want to It definitely is 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:13.240 makes me more makes it possible for me to be 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:16.480 a working mom, frankly, but I want it to be 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:21.160 on my terms. So this isn't just a digital detox. Um. 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:23.800 You know, it's nice to get away from technology because 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:25.480 it makes us feel better, but the whole point of 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:28.240 this was to become more creative. So I'm wondering what 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:32.760 you and they listeners who did this with you discovered 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:37.280 about your creativity through the boredom. Well, I mean what 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:41.280 I got were some amazing stories from things as mundane 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:45.720 as like I figured out, you know, how to make 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:50.760 something amazing with the leftovers I had stuck in my refrigerator. Too. 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:53.919 I figured out how to resolve an issue that I 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.840 had with someone at work, and you know, the work thing. 0:17:57.440 --> 0:17:59.800 I think I've just been sort of on the road 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:02.280 with Born and Brilliant book tour, and the theme that 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.680 I keep hearing is people talking about burnout at work. 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:10.119 That the pings, the slack, the email, the all the 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:13.320 different HR websites that you have to log into and 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:15.680 submit this and that and check whether you got your 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:18.680 review and blah blah blah. It's driving people to the 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.240 point where they feel like they can't actually do what 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:23.960 they've been hired to do, the hard, deep work, whether 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:28.000 that is coding or writing reports or whatever it is 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:31.240 that they do. People are feeling it. It seems like 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.800 that the key ingredient and every example is like, you 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:39.840 need to create that space where you don't have any goal, 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:43.160 where you're you're just kind of aimless. And I wonder 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:45.439 if you get any pushback from people who are like, 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.000 how could I do that during my work day? For me, 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:50.280 the answer was, and you know this isn't for everyone, 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:54.119 I joined a silent workspace, um, where you're not allowed 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.880 to talk, you're not even allowed to eat, and UM, 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:59.439 I just now my team knows like I don't get 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:01.919 there very off in but when I'm at my silent workspace, 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.919 like it's resetting the expectations that they can you know, 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:07.240 either slack with me or text with me all day long, 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:09.360 but they know that like at the end of the day, 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:11.960 that's when I come back with the goods, Like that's 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:15.040 when I get my best writing done. Um. And so 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:17.560 you know my fantasy. And I did actually hear from 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:19.520 one person on the road who told me they have 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:22.959 this um that every office space would have like a 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:28.160 silent workspace. And you know, and and and we have cafeterias, 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:31.199 we have these open space offices. Why don't we have 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:35.520 places where people can actually go to do the work 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:39.680 that they cannot do if they are interrupted. Have you 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:42.840 seen changes in your work from going to the silent 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:45.120 workspace and doing some of these other hacks in your book? 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:49.880 I wrote the book there, so yeah, absolutely. I mean 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:54.000 I think like I have tried everything, which is I 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:55.800 don't know about you guys, but for me, like to 0:19:55.880 --> 0:20:00.639 write the podcast, I need four hours straight. Like I 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:03.159 can get up for like you know, bathroom breaks and snacks, 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:06.560 but I need four hours straight. And I just I 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:08.480 have tried to do it in little half hours. They're 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:10.600 half hours there. I've tried to write it at my 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:13.000 desk when my team members are we work in like 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:16.919 this little pod area. It just doesn't work for me. 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:19.840 So it's either a flight or it's time in my 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:23.280 silent workspace. And that is when I make the stuff 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:26.560 that has the best longevity. When I come up with 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.680 my like ideas that not every you know, no hot 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:32.240 takes are happening, you know, like this is when I 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:35.199 actually do the real, the harder where I've come up 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:38.840 with ideas that that that are not all over Twitter 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:41.080 like they take longer, you can't explain them in a 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:43.280 hundred and forty characters. So for me, I think, you know, 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:47.680 it's very much tied up in UM, my livelihood now 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:49.720 that I need this time and space because I think 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:54.080 it's my point of difference from other um, from other journalists. 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:58.040 So just a final question, what what is the thing 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:01.240 since the possible outcomes are so different in the ways 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:03.840 that you arrive at them are so different, what's the 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:06.719 thing that you hope people get out of reading your 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:09.840 book or understanding, you know, doing these challenges, like what's 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:14.240 the ideal place to end up? To me, it's about 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:20.480 redeveloping that capacity for patients UM and patients, for yourself 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:26.320