Speaker 1: If you're like me, you spend a lot of time
Speaker 1: thinking about how you can get more done at work.
Speaker 1: But what if instead we focused more on doing our
Speaker 1: best work. This week we're talking about tapping into your
Speaker 1: creative side. This is game Plan. Hi. I'm Francesco Leiti
Speaker 1: and I'm Rebecca Greenfield, and this week we are talking
Speaker 1: about the best ways to work for fulfilling your creative potential.
Speaker 1: Which sounds like an ad for a webinar or something,
Speaker 1: or like some kind of infomercial. Yeah, But another way
Speaker 1: to think about creativity is another fun buzzword, which is innovation,
Speaker 1: which I think is the same thing. Yeah, as with everything,
Speaker 1: there's like a business reason why companies would want people
Speaker 1: to be more creative in their jobs. Yeah. I think
Speaker 1: that is what separates good businesses from bad businesses. And
Speaker 1: companies know that if they have created of or innovative employees,
Speaker 1: that's how they can stand out. And then as an employee,
Speaker 1: if you're creative and innovative, that's how you stand out, right,
Speaker 1: or how you not get replaced by a robot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we have to stay one step ahead of the robots.
Speaker 1: But how do we get to a place then where
Speaker 1: we can become more creative. And to be clear, we're
Speaker 1: not talking strictly about productivity hacks, although that might enter
Speaker 1: into it, and we have an episode about it if
Speaker 1: you want to listen to it, that's right out. But
Speaker 1: being creative is not always doesn't always go hand in
Speaker 1: hand with being productive. So we should talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about what we mean by being creative before we
Speaker 1: get into the how. So I think being productive is
Speaker 1: getting anything done, getting tasks done, or like you know,
Speaker 1: you could say answering emails as a type of productivity,
Speaker 1: or like finishing your to do list, right, But creativity,
Speaker 1: I guess in my mind, is harder. I actually came
Speaker 1: across a sort of working definition of creativity that researchers use.
Speaker 1: There is a research journal about creativity. It's called it's
Speaker 1: called the Creativity Research Journal. That's amazing, and um, I
Speaker 1: actually found this really useful. So the kind of working
Speaker 1: definition of creativity is originality plus effectiveness. So originality like
Speaker 1: you're coming at an idea or a problem in a
Speaker 1: way that other people haven't done it. You're you're doing
Speaker 1: something different, you have a fresh angle. But originality alone
Speaker 1: isn't enough because you could be a crazy person spouting
Speaker 1: random nonsense, and that doesn't necessary That definitely makes you original,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily make you creative. So the effectiveness
Speaker 1: part is about creating value. I like that definition because
Speaker 1: it opens up creativity to means so much more than
Speaker 1: just like making art. It can mean coming at any
Speaker 1: problem in a new way and and being somewhat successful
Speaker 1: at it. We work in a world that's designed in
Speaker 1: many ways to kind of like make it harder to
Speaker 1: get to that place where we can access that creativity
Speaker 1: and those creative thoughts. So let's talk about some of
Speaker 1: the things that might inhibit creative um. One of them
Speaker 1: is multitasking. Multitasking used to be I feel like there
Speaker 1: was a time when multitasking was all the rage. Multitasking
Speaker 1: was supposed to be a core competency people had, and
Speaker 1: then I think the research community kind of came around
Speaker 1: to the idea that no one can really do more
Speaker 1: than one thing at the same time. It's just not
Speaker 1: physically possible, and in fact, you cost yourself a lot
Speaker 1: of productivity and brain power by trying to switch between
Speaker 1: tasks all the time. It feels like multitasking as some
Speaker 1: sort of productivity creativity hack was just an excuse for
Speaker 1: people to not do work right. Well. I think it
Speaker 1: kind of came on in response to maybe like a
Speaker 1: new information age where everybody was like, oh, I can
Speaker 1: I can make more use out of my time. I
Speaker 1: can do all these things. I can check email, and
Speaker 1: I can have a meeting, and I can write a report,
Speaker 1: and everybody should be able to do that. They're all these,
Speaker 1: you know, skills you're suddenly expected to have for a while.
Speaker 1: Multitasking seems like one of them. But I can't see
Speaker 1: how it's really bad for creativity because you're just distracting
Speaker 1: yourself from different things all the time. Yeah. I think
Speaker 1: one thing most people agree helps with creativity is just
Speaker 1: kind of clearing the decks for thinking about things in
Speaker 1: a fresh way. So that's why it can be helpful
Speaker 1: to get through your to do list, because you know,
Speaker 1: maybe you need to empty or quiet that part of
Speaker 1: your brain that's always telling you need to get stuff done.
Speaker 1: But multitasking seems like it goes against that because you're
Speaker 1: you're just never really finishing anything, You're just constantly living
Speaker 1: between things. And I think what goes hand in hand
Speaker 1: with multitasking being a huge hinder and stating anything done
Speaker 1: is the thing that enables us to multitask, which is
Speaker 1: different types of technology. So like you're answering chats and
Speaker 1: checking your email and I don't know, you're in a
Speaker 1: Google doc. It's like seems impossible to just concentrate on
Speaker 1: one thing when you have all these notifications coming at
Speaker 1: you all the time. Yeah, and we have an episode
Speaker 1: of that too, write about distractions, an episode for anything
Speaker 1: and everything. But yeah, like tech feels to me like
Speaker 1: this really easily available scapegoat, not saying that it isn't real,
Speaker 1: but that we all we all look at these infringements
Speaker 1: on our sort of time and creative process and say, like,
Speaker 1: if only we could get rid of all the notifications
Speaker 1: in the apps, you know, we'd reach this creative utopia.
Speaker 1: Like the digital detox has become a thing. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: such a thing that there was an amazing Bloomberg Pursuits
Speaker 1: article about spas in New York City where they offer
Speaker 1: a digital detox package. So it's it's going to the
Speaker 1: spa and you give them your phone, right, But it's
Speaker 1: so in demand among busy professionals that they can sell
Speaker 1: these services, right they can. There's like a premium on
Speaker 1: telling people we will rescue you from your devices by
Speaker 1: like putting your phone behind the reception desk. What you
Speaker 1: get a massage, and it caused hundreds of dollars. Maybe
Speaker 1: we don't need to go that far. Maybe we just
Speaker 1: need to separate from our apps enough to get a
Speaker 1: little bit bored. That's what our guest today is going
Speaker 1: to talk to us about. Manu summer Roadie is the
Speaker 1: host of the podcast Note to Self an author of
Speaker 1: the recent book Board and Brilliant. Years ago, when Manu
Speaker 1: had her first child, he had a bad case of colic,
Speaker 1: which meant that she had to push him around in
Speaker 1: a stroller all of the time without making any noise
Speaker 1: because it was the only way he would sleep, and
Speaker 1: she describes these hours she spent walking as kind of excruciating.
Speaker 1: But she realized later that all that time that her
Speaker 1: mind was free to wander without any interference, and she
Speaker 1: found herself actually getting bored led to her having one
Speaker 1: of the most creative periods of her life, and that
Speaker 1: ended up turning into an experiment on her show, which
Speaker 1: became the book Board and Brilliant. So what made you
Speaker 1: discover that being board actually has a functional purpose. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was a completely mundane personal experience, uh in the workplace,
Speaker 1: of course, which was it was a couple of years
Speaker 1: ago and the podcast was doing well, but you know,
Speaker 1: I wanted to kill it, right, so I type a
Speaker 1: person sat down, was like, Okay, just come up with
Speaker 1: some really big creative ideas. And I really felt like
Speaker 1: there was nothing going on upstairs. And it was different
Speaker 1: than writer's block, because I've had that before where you
Speaker 1: just you know, wait for the muse. This felt like
Speaker 1: there was sand in my brain. And so I started
Speaker 1: to think back, like, wait a minute, when was the
Speaker 1: last time I had good ideas? And it was really
Speaker 1: sort of you know, moments before I had kids and
Speaker 1: I used to take long showers, or I used to
Speaker 1: stare out the window of the car, or i'd take
Speaker 1: the subway ride. Um, And now I realized all those
Speaker 1: little cracks in my day, all those moments when I
Speaker 1: used to space out and like think of weird ideas.
Speaker 1: Now of course I was looking at my phone. There
Speaker 1: was not a single moment that I didn't take, whether
Speaker 1: it was waiting in line for coffee or waiting for
Speaker 1: my kids at school or whatever, that I wasn't looking
Speaker 1: at my phone, and so it started to make me
Speaker 1: think like, huh, well, what actually happens in our brains
Speaker 1: when we allow it to be bored? Or even more importantly,
Speaker 1: what happens if we never get bored? Is that like
Speaker 1: we're always told that only boring people get bored, but
Speaker 1: actually maybe it's not such a great thing to never
Speaker 1: experience boredom. Yeah, so what does happen in our minds
Speaker 1: when we get bored? Well, it's super cool actually, And
Speaker 1: we are at this amazing moment in neuroscience where they're
Speaker 1: starting to understand when what's going on when the mind
Speaker 1: begins to wander, And it turns out you ignite a
Speaker 1: network in your brain called the default mode. Uh. Some
Speaker 1: scientists refer to it actually as the imagination network. And
Speaker 1: this is where we do our most original thinking. It's
Speaker 1: where we take to disparate is and smash it together
Speaker 1: to create something new. And it's also where we do
Speaker 1: something that I had never heard of before called autobiographical planning.
Speaker 1: And this is where you look back at your life,
Speaker 1: you take note of the highs and the lows, and
Speaker 1: you build a personal narrative and then you look forward
Speaker 1: and you think, well, what are the goals that I
Speaker 1: want to set, What are the things I want to
Speaker 1: do next? And how what steps do I need to
Speaker 1: take to reach those goals? Um So it's super important work,
Speaker 1: but you can't tap that brain power if you're constantly
Speaker 1: tapping a screen. Yeah, it sounds so exciting and productive,
Speaker 1: which is like the opposite of what we think of
Speaker 1: as boredom. How do we get ourselves into a place
Speaker 1: where we can basically allow our minds to wander without
Speaker 1: any real goal, especially if we have a goal and
Speaker 1: that's to become more creative and to inspire that kind
Speaker 1: of thinking totally. So, I mean, I think, you know,
Speaker 1: like to be clear, when the mind wanders, it can
Speaker 1: go to bad places. There is dysphoric mind wondering. That's
Speaker 1: where you ruminate like tomorrow and I'll be like I
Speaker 1: should have told you know, said on that podcast, like
Speaker 1: I should have explained that story or whatever, and you
Speaker 1: you know, you can't stop be like I should have
Speaker 1: said that, or you ruminate on something that you should
Speaker 1: have done. There's also distracted mind wandering, whereas you never
Speaker 1: sort of settle into something, you just bounce around. But
Speaker 1: there's also positive, constructive mind wandering, which is the kind
Speaker 1: that we're talking about right here. And my theory, and
Speaker 1: I've kind of proved it with with some a bunch
Speaker 1: of people, is that if you know that boredom can
Speaker 1: have a constructive outcome, if you allow yourself to pass
Speaker 1: through some of the very uncomfortable, sometimes even painful experiences
Speaker 1: that it can be to be bored and and allow
Speaker 1: yourself to follow the thread of an idea, that is
Speaker 1: when you can reach um, either you're coming up with
Speaker 1: a new idea or solving a problem. UM. I think
Speaker 1: it's being more comfortable with the idea of being bored.
Speaker 1: And it's kind of funny to even say that because
Speaker 1: I think, you know, a decade ago, before we had
Speaker 1: a smartphone, no one would have actually had to say,
Speaker 1: you know, let's name it, let's talk about boredom, let's
Speaker 1: let's make time for boredom, let's celebrate boredom. But I
Speaker 1: think we're finding that with a lot of human things
Speaker 1: that we took for granted before, a lot of the
Speaker 1: technology we have to do those things I contact, for example,
Speaker 1: conversation UM patients, we're starting to see more and more
Speaker 1: things that we're just sort of normal human states that
Speaker 1: have to be um reclaimed because our gadgets simply don't
Speaker 1: prioritize them. Yeah, you've brought up technology a couple of times,
Speaker 1: and how that's filled the cracks in your day when
Speaker 1: you might have had the time for this thinking. So
Speaker 1: how do you break away from your phone basically to
Speaker 1: get to this boredom time. So what the book Board
Speaker 1: and Brilliant is based on is a week of challenges
Speaker 1: that I did with twenty of my listeners a full
Speaker 1: years ago, where every day they listened to a short
Speaker 1: little podcast that explains some of the neuroscience, some of
Speaker 1: the design of the technology, and then we gave them
Speaker 1: a little newsletter that suggested a little sort of behavior
Speaker 1: tweak to try and then report back because ironically, we
Speaker 1: partnered with apps, so we had people reporting how many
Speaker 1: minutes a day they were spending on their phone, how
Speaker 1: many pickups they were on their phone, and we also
Speaker 1: got thousands of stories from people. And so what we
Speaker 1: did was just little little changes that we're asking people
Speaker 1: to make so that they become more purposeful about how
Speaker 1: they use their technology and more comfortable with the concept
Speaker 1: of getting bored So, for example, UM, one of the
Speaker 1: challenges is called delete that app. And the idea is
Speaker 1: just take the app that's driving you bonkers bananas. I
Speaker 1: want you to both think of it right now. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: everybody listening to the app, you know the one, just
Speaker 1: take it off your phone, just for the day. We're
Speaker 1: not saying like quit, We're not saying like never put
Speaker 1: it back on, just for one day. See what it's
Speaker 1: like not to have Twitter calling out to you to
Speaker 1: be refreshed or you know, every time you have a
Speaker 1: thought and you're like, oh, that would be an amazing tweet.
Speaker 1: Maybe not tweeting it, maybe not sharing it because maybe
Speaker 1: it's not good enough. But and if you sat on
Speaker 1: it for a little while, you'd realize that. So um,
Speaker 1: So it was really interesting to see how people reacted
Speaker 1: to that. Um should I ask you, guys, what would
Speaker 1: be your app? I think I shamed Francesca into doing
Speaker 1: Yeah you did. I she made me to lead Twitter,
Speaker 1: um and I did. And it was Twitter. Okay, it
Speaker 1: was Twitter, and I um, I was having a real
Speaker 1: Twitter problem. Um, particularly after the election. I was just
Speaker 1: like super absorbed in news and it wasn't productive or
Speaker 1: constructive for me at all. And everything got better when
Speaker 1: I did that, but I downloaded it again it's back.
Speaker 1: I don't know, like did I undo? I think that's okay. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: Like what this is not about is judging or shaming.
Speaker 1: Like there were some people and I think, like this
Speaker 1: is part of the self knowledge element, Like there are
Speaker 1: some people who cannot handle Twitter. And I did have
Speaker 1: listeners who are like, it's off my phone and it's
Speaker 1: staying off my phone because I don't like how I
Speaker 1: am around it. But there were other people who were like, huh,
Speaker 1: that was really interesting to see what that was. Like
Speaker 1: now I'm more aware and I'm okay with it, you know.
Speaker 1: And and then there were other people who are like,
Speaker 1: I've decided for one day a month, I'm going to
Speaker 1: take Twitter off my phone just because I liked how
Speaker 1: it felt. But I don't want it all the time.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of like drinking, right, Like there
Speaker 1: are some people are like, you know what, I just
Speaker 1: don't drink. It doesn't agree with me. And there are
Speaker 1: other people who like to have a glass of wine
Speaker 1: every night and they're fine with that. Like it's like
Speaker 1: I don't think the answer is on or off, Like
Speaker 1: it's not a binary with technology it's about figuring out
Speaker 1: where you land on the sort of spectrum. It's about
Speaker 1: self regulation, it's about making sure that Twitter and all
Speaker 1: those other awesome things, because they are awesome, but let's
Speaker 1: make sure that they're helping us and improving our lives
Speaker 1: as opposed to becoming our task masters, which a lot
Speaker 1: of times they have become. I mean, look at the president, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I think about some of the challenges in your
Speaker 1: book and how they should be really simple, like deleting
Speaker 1: an app um, but actually they feel really hard. Like
Speaker 1: one of them you have is is basically to keep
Speaker 1: your device out of reach as long as you're in motion,
Speaker 1: So you shouldn't you shouldn't have your phone really available
Speaker 1: if you're if you're traveling or walking. And I read
Speaker 1: that it sounds really simple, and it actually it made
Speaker 1: me kind of like physically ill, thinking like how would
Speaker 1: I walk around without my phone? So sometimes my phone
Speaker 1: is in my hand when I'm walking from place to place,
Speaker 1: but it's at least in my pocket, And so I
Speaker 1: just wonder, like, how did you come up against a
Speaker 1: lot of resistance when you suggested these things? How did
Speaker 1: you talk people through it? Like how do you get
Speaker 1: people to make that leap when our devices are kind
Speaker 1: of designed to keep us addicted to them. So it's
Speaker 1: funny that you mentioned that it sounds really easy. That
Speaker 1: is the one challenge that always wins over the skeptics,
Speaker 1: the people who are like, what are you even talking about?
Speaker 1: This is so not a problem. I just put my
Speaker 1: phone away asked them to do that challenge. I have
Speaker 1: had so many people come back to me and be like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I was so wrong, in part because
Speaker 1: we realized that, um, it's it's become a reflex. I
Speaker 1: had one guy say to me, God, it was just
Speaker 1: like when I was a smoker, Like he associated he'd
Speaker 1: get off the subway, he'd laid a cigarette. Now what
Speaker 1: do we do we get off the subway, We check
Speaker 1: our email. It's become a linked habit to so many
Speaker 1: things in our day, to the point where we don't
Speaker 1: even know that we're doing it, and we're not even
Speaker 1: really looking for anything in particular. Um. And that's where
Speaker 1: you know, for people who are more data minded, that's
Speaker 1: where our partnership with the apps, I think really made
Speaker 1: a difference. So I'll use myself as an example. I
Speaker 1: had figured that I was checking my phone like thirty
Speaker 1: times a day. I thought that seemed like a lot,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I like my phone, um, but no, I
Speaker 1: was checking nine hundred times a day and I didn't
Speaker 1: even realize it. So for me, it's about I don't
Speaker 1: want this to be a digital detox, because I kind
Speaker 1: of think those are both, Like, we have to live
Speaker 1: with this technology and I want to It definitely is
Speaker 1: makes me more makes it possible for me to be
Speaker 1: a working mom, frankly, but I want it to be
Speaker 1: on my terms. So this isn't just a digital detox. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, it's nice to get away from technology because
Speaker 1: it makes us feel better, but the whole point of
Speaker 1: this was to become more creative. So I'm wondering what
Speaker 1: you and they listeners who did this with you discovered
Speaker 1: about your creativity through the boredom. Well, I mean what
Speaker 1: I got were some amazing stories from things as mundane
Speaker 1: as like I figured out, you know, how to make
Speaker 1: something amazing with the leftovers I had stuck in my refrigerator. Too.
Speaker 1: I figured out how to resolve an issue that I
Speaker 1: had with someone at work, and you know, the work thing.
Speaker 1: I think I've just been sort of on the road
Speaker 1: with Born and Brilliant book tour, and the theme that
Speaker 1: I keep hearing is people talking about burnout at work.
Speaker 1: That the pings, the slack, the email, the all the
Speaker 1: different HR websites that you have to log into and
Speaker 1: submit this and that and check whether you got your
Speaker 1: review and blah blah blah. It's driving people to the
Speaker 1: point where they feel like they can't actually do what
Speaker 1: they've been hired to do, the hard, deep work, whether
Speaker 1: that is coding or writing reports or whatever it is
Speaker 1: that they do. People are feeling it. It seems like
Speaker 1: that the key ingredient and every example is like, you
Speaker 1: need to create that space where you don't have any goal,
Speaker 1: where you're you're just kind of aimless. And I wonder
Speaker 1: if you get any pushback from people who are like,
Speaker 1: how could I do that during my work day? For me,
Speaker 1: the answer was, and you know this isn't for everyone,
Speaker 1: I joined a silent workspace, um, where you're not allowed
Speaker 1: to talk, you're not even allowed to eat, and UM,
Speaker 1: I just now my team knows like I don't get
Speaker 1: there very off in but when I'm at my silent workspace,
Speaker 1: like it's resetting the expectations that they can you know,
Speaker 1: either slack with me or text with me all day long,
Speaker 1: but they know that like at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: that's when I come back with the goods, Like that's
Speaker 1: when I get my best writing done. Um. And so
Speaker 1: you know my fantasy. And I did actually hear from
Speaker 1: one person on the road who told me they have
Speaker 1: this um that every office space would have like a
Speaker 1: silent workspace. And you know, and and and we have cafeterias,
Speaker 1: we have these open space offices. Why don't we have
Speaker 1: places where people can actually go to do the work
Speaker 1: that they cannot do if they are interrupted. Have you
Speaker 1: seen changes in your work from going to the silent
Speaker 1: workspace and doing some of these other hacks in your book?
Speaker 1: I wrote the book there, so yeah, absolutely. I mean
Speaker 1: I think like I have tried everything, which is I
Speaker 1: don't know about you guys, but for me, like to
Speaker 1: write the podcast, I need four hours straight. Like I
Speaker 1: can get up for like you know, bathroom breaks and snacks,
Speaker 1: but I need four hours straight. And I just I
Speaker 1: have tried to do it in little half hours. They're
Speaker 1: half hours there. I've tried to write it at my
Speaker 1: desk when my team members are we work in like
Speaker 1: this little pod area. It just doesn't work for me.
Speaker 1: So it's either a flight or it's time in my
Speaker 1: silent workspace. And that is when I make the stuff
Speaker 1: that has the best longevity. When I come up with
Speaker 1: my like ideas that not every you know, no hot
Speaker 1: takes are happening, you know, like this is when I
Speaker 1: actually do the real, the harder where I've come up
Speaker 1: with ideas that that that are not all over Twitter
Speaker 1: like they take longer, you can't explain them in a
Speaker 1: hundred and forty characters. So for me, I think, you know,
Speaker 1: it's very much tied up in UM, my livelihood now
Speaker 1: that I need this time and space because I think
Speaker 1: it's my point of difference from other um, from other journalists.
Speaker 1: So just a final question, what what is the thing
Speaker 1: since the possible outcomes are so different in the ways
Speaker 1: that you arrive at them are so different, what's the
Speaker 1: thing that you hope people get out of reading your
Speaker 1: book or understanding, you know, doing these challenges, like what's
Speaker 1: the ideal place to end up? To me, it's about
Speaker 1: redeveloping that capacity for patients UM and patients, for yourself
Speaker 1: patients to know that you might have a thought and
Speaker 1: then it takes a while, and it might turn into
Speaker 1: like something super mediocre, but maybe you just need to
Speaker 1: hang in there and go for a very long, maybe
Speaker 1: even boring walk, and you might actually get to something outstanding.
Speaker 1: I think we've become so used to getting a response quickly,
Speaker 1: getting our lunch quickly, like everything quick. But actually the
Speaker 1: one thing our phones and our gadgets cannot give us
Speaker 1: is more time. And we need to redevelop this capacity
Speaker 1: to be patient with ourselves and and let ourselves become
Speaker 1: um better thinkers. It's that simple and that hard. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for talking to his Venusia. This
Speaker 1: is really fascinating. Oh you guys, thanks thanks for trying
Speaker 1: to delete that app. I love that you gave it
Speaker 1: a go. Finutia's approach to disconnecting is about moderation, which
Speaker 1: I really love because I feel like a lot of
Speaker 1: the digital DTOX literature really pushes people to be extreme.
Speaker 1: Like there was this guy Paul Miller who a few
Speaker 1: years ago he took a whole year off from the
Speaker 1: Internet and he wrote a weekly column about it, which
Speaker 1: I guess he didn't the internet somewhere else published it
Speaker 1: on the Internet for him and his company still paid him,
Speaker 1: and then a year later he wrote about his experience
Speaker 1: and it was pretty interesting because in the first few
Speaker 1: months things went really well. He lost a lot of weight,
Speaker 1: which was interesting, but he also was really creative. He said,
Speaker 1: his editor told him he was writing too much. So
Speaker 1: clearly like the boardom thing worked for him, right, But
Speaker 1: then he said after a while, it was really socially isolating.
Speaker 1: He describes basically a depression that he went into after
Speaker 1: this digital ty talks for a whole year. And I
Speaker 1: think again we discount the importance of socializing and communication
Speaker 1: as part of the creative process, Like there's this whole
Speaker 1: you need to clear your mind and be alone and
Speaker 1: not have any distractions. But I think also being social
Speaker 1: and communicating is the other half of it. And so
Speaker 1: that's why kind of like Minutia's more moderate approach, like
Speaker 1: she still checked her email. Yeah, she talked about her
Speaker 1: silent workspace that she goes to, and I really like
Speaker 1: that she she kind of found what works for her,
Speaker 1: which was a partial disconnection at least, Like it's helpful
Speaker 1: for her when she's doing a certain kind of task
Speaker 1: to not have anybody talking around her, but she doesn't
Speaker 1: need to completely deprive herself of any access to internet,
Speaker 1: and you know, she probably allows herself to check email
Speaker 1: now and then. And I think you're absolutely right, Like
Speaker 1: we wouldn't have these technologies if they didn't help us
Speaker 1: in some way. So to just assume that all we
Speaker 1: need is freedom from them and then you know, we'll
Speaker 1: have this creative rebirth. I think it's too simplistic and
Speaker 1: we should let ourselves off the hook a little bit
Speaker 1: for liking using the apps we use and you know,
Speaker 1: the internet. That's what I've been trying to do some
Speaker 1: of her disconnecting techniques since we talked to her and
Speaker 1: so on the subway, I've been trying really hard not
Speaker 1: to reach my phone, which is really difficult, incredibly, and
Speaker 1: trying to see where my mind wanders. But it definitely
Speaker 1: isn't wandering to creative things all the time. Mostly it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: what should I be looking at on my phone? Or
Speaker 1: I don't even know, or people also think you're looking
Speaker 1: at them weird, like they're not used to seeing your eyes.
Speaker 1: It's true, we are. We are in a culture now
Speaker 1: where like you're the weird one if you're not looking
Speaker 1: at your phone. It's a fun challenge, though I'm gonna
Speaker 1: keep doing it. Yeah, I, um so, I was kind
Speaker 1: of four into this board in place. Very recently, I
Speaker 1: took my son to the doctor and we ended up
Speaker 1: having a two and a half hour await in the
Speaker 1: waiting room because they were like crazy backed up, and
Speaker 1: I couldn't take out my phone or entertained myself with
Speaker 1: even like the things I had in my bag, like
Speaker 1: a newspaper and a magazine, because that would just distract
Speaker 1: my son and then we'd get in a fight over
Speaker 1: the phone, and so really I had to focus on
Speaker 1: keeping him from driving everyone else in the waiting room crazy,
Speaker 1: um while I myself couldn't actually zone out and entertain myself.
Speaker 1: So we did things like walking around the waiting room
Speaker 1: and reading every piece of like material in the doctor's
Speaker 1: waiting room about their practice and like CPR, and I
Speaker 1: would just like read to him off the posters like
Speaker 1: they were really interesting, or like he would crawl under
Speaker 1: chairs and crack people up, and then I would have
Speaker 1: to go chase after him. And it was an experience
Speaker 1: that I would have just found purely infuriating on another occasion,
Speaker 1: But because we had this conversation with him, I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm getting the gift of this boredom time. Like,
Speaker 1: I'm becoming so creative with how I'm using this time.
Speaker 1: And it really did feel like it opened up a
Speaker 1: space in my mind to kind of take in what
Speaker 1: was going on around me. Now, I didn't necessarily go
Speaker 1: home and write a novel after that, but it made
Speaker 1: me realize that you you can you get these times
Speaker 1: in your life and you can reframe them as positive
Speaker 1: if you look at like, Okay, I'm giving my brain rest.
Speaker 1: I'm not able to look at my phone right now.
Speaker 1: I have to make the best of the super boring situation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just kind of nice to experience the world in
Speaker 1: a different way. Yeah, I just odd myself. Well, let's
Speaker 1: do some half big takes half fake takes. If you'd
Speaker 1: like to give us your half big take, you can
Speaker 1: call and leave a voicemail at two and two six
Speaker 1: one seven zero one six. In fact, you can call
Speaker 1: that hotline and leave us a message about anything you like,
Speaker 1: like this caller who had something to say about our
Speaker 1: recent episode on how the stable job is basically dead. Hi, there,
Speaker 1: I just listened to the story about the changing American
Speaker 1: workers the gig economy, and I wonder if the state
Speaker 1: of workers being well paid and well compensated in this
Speaker 1: paternalistic company structure didn't contribute to the demise of fed
Speaker 1: existence these companies. I'm um why I live in California
Speaker 1: and the uh some of the pensions are extraordinary. You
Speaker 1: hear stories anecdotal, of course, for firefighters who on the
Speaker 1: last three years of their employment they load up their
Speaker 1: shifts so that they can get this maximum pay for
Speaker 1: the rest of their lives. And then people are living
Speaker 1: so much longer. Did they think about that at the
Speaker 1: end of the war, how much longer people would be
Speaker 1: living and to be able to pay something out forever. Anyway,
Speaker 1: my whole statement about life is it's just not that simple.
Speaker 1: So I think your author made some very good point
Speaker 1: about why this came about, But it's just not that simple.
Speaker 1: There are larger forces at work. I enjoyed your show.
Speaker 1: It's the first time I listened to it. Thanks very much,
Speaker 1: and I'm Chris from Auburn, California. Byebye, Becca. What is
Speaker 1: your half big take this week? So my half big
Speaker 1: take is about how I have a pretty high bar
Speaker 1: for when I will engage with a post on Facebook. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's hear more. Well, people post things on Facebook and
Speaker 1: they beckon you to respond, and often, you know, I
Speaker 1: get that feeling, got that itch, but I will only respond.
Speaker 1: I don't know what the bar is, but there are
Speaker 1: just so many notifications if you do respond, because if
Speaker 1: you respond, then you get notifications at anytime anyone else responds,
Speaker 1: anytime anyone else engages with the post. I've in fact,
Speaker 1: engaged with the Facebook post and then deleted my response
Speaker 1: because you know, you can just unchecked those notifications, can you.
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's very confusing. It does evolve a
Speaker 1: fair amount of clicking. I think my bar for posting
Speaker 1: on social media is pretty high in general, and responding
Speaker 1: is even higher. So do you find yourself like tempted
Speaker 1: to engage with the post and then you're like, I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna do this because it's going to ruin the
Speaker 1: rest of my day. So when someone posts a cute
Speaker 1: baby picture, you're not like, oh, I was growing up
Speaker 1: so far I'd give it a like. I'm very generous
Speaker 1: with likes and faves because those are yeah, yeah, and leave.
Speaker 1: So I think that's another side. Half bake, take it
Speaker 1: cheap there's no reason not like something comments I'm making
Speaker 1: the money simple with my hands. Well, as a person
Speaker 1: with a kid, I can say that I feel obligated
Speaker 1: to remark on other people's cute kids because you need
Speaker 1: to hear about how your kids are, your kid is.
Speaker 1: It's a part of being a parent. I feel really bad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: tell people their kids are cute, and then disabled the notification.
Speaker 1: There are three hafache takes in this take. Yeah, frantistico,
Speaker 1: it's your half baked take. Um, we've done various hafae
Speaker 1: takes about coffee before, but mine is about h finding
Speaker 1: a coffee shop where the barista will at least look
Speaker 1: at you with a smile of acknowledgment. So, like, I
Speaker 1: go into the same coffee shop every morning and I
Speaker 1: get a coffee and they happen to know my order,
Speaker 1: which is lovely and it makes me feel very special.
Speaker 1: But I have like started going to coffee shops and
Speaker 1: stopped going there because after a year of going there
Speaker 1: and ordering the exact same thing every morning, they didn't
Speaker 1: even give me that look of recognition. Like, I'm not
Speaker 1: asking for you to memorize my order. It's nice, Certainly
Speaker 1: you don't have to know my name, but just exchange
Speaker 1: a look with me that shows that this is not
Speaker 1: the first time you've ever seen me in your life,
Speaker 1: Like we're all living in this world together, and make
Speaker 1: it a little easier. Is like, you don't need to
Speaker 1: know my order, but smile. Please give me a look
Speaker 1: of recognition, do a nod. Not telling people to smile.
Speaker 1: You know I would never do that. That is not us.
Speaker 1: Game plan does not tell yeh, I just I recently
Speaker 1: that was just so satisfying. Had the barrista at the
Speaker 1: coffee shop knew the order and never happened to me
Speaker 1: in my life feels so good, doesn't it? It really did. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my my place that I go to um because it's
Speaker 1: a transitional time of year, they know that I'm switching
Speaker 1: between hot and iced versions of my order, so they
Speaker 1: just say hot or rice. They know it's a soy latte.
Speaker 1: So great, don't put that in. This has been have
Speaker 1: big takes, hath baked takes. Thank you for listening to
Speaker 1: game Plan. You can find me on Twitter at Francesca
Speaker 1: Today and you can find me on Twitter at RZ Greenfield.
Speaker 1: As always, you can call into our hotline at two
Speaker 1: on two six seven zero one six six, Leave us
Speaker 1: a message, tell us about your half baked takes or
Speaker 1: any other opinions you have. You might play it on
Speaker 1: the show. Subscribe to our newsletter if you want to
Speaker 1: hear from us throughout the week and get cool extras um.
Speaker 1: You can do that just by going to Bloomberg dot
Speaker 1: com slash newsletters and checking game Plan. If you like
Speaker 1: the show, please head on over to Apple Podcasts or
Speaker 1: every listen and rate and review and subscribe. I check
Speaker 1: it a lot on This show is produced by Liz
Speaker 1: Smith and Magnus Henrickson, head of podcast is Me See
Speaker 1: you next week. Bye. If you're like me, you spend
Speaker 1: a lot of time thinking about how you can get
Speaker 1: more done at work. But what if instead of doing
Speaker 1: more work, we did less work and just relaxed. This
Speaker 1: is game Plan. No sorry, I went out. Script