1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: Hey, want to welcome in. I'm John Gotwin. This is 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: all ball, So here we are and you're downloading this. 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: It's a weekend of great college basketball. NFL football is over. 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: Now it's time for kind of the rest of the 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: world to dig in on the sport and kind of 6 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: what an interesting year we have, right, I mean, you 7 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:32,919 Speaker 1: go coast to coast. UCLA was far below their normal standard, 8 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: but very very young, and lots of questions about mixed future. 9 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: And UCLA seems to have righted the ship on some 10 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: level as their young players are coming of age. Still 11 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: UCLA down Indiana, Michigan, Ohio State already makes a coaching change, Louisville. 12 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: I mean, look, look, we're in a world in which 13 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: there's at least a possibility that Ohio State, which is 14 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: already open, Louisville likely to come open, Michigan and Indiana, 15 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: Minnesota could all come open in one year. And what's this? 16 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: Is it the expectations? 17 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 2: Sure? 18 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: Is it? Nil? I think so? And then of course 19 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: it's kind of cyclical, right, Some leagues go through this. 20 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: In one year You'll see MASSI about pupil and changes, 21 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: and then you consider that next year it's going to 22 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: be even more competitive more interesting in the Big Ten 23 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:25,639 Speaker 1: with UCLA, Washington, Oregon, USC coming in. Speaking of USC, 24 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: heikes hikes Right, there's basically it feels like two different 25 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: stories of teams that are struggling. There's a couple of 26 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: programs I'd say sc Arkansas, Villanova and again in their 27 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: league you see Santa Barbara that I feel like their 28 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: teams put together with the proper or maybe even a 29 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: ton of support with nil and yet chemistry issues have 30 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: really derailed those programs. And all are coached by coaches 31 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: that are well regarded, right, like Joe Pastick's done a 32 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: good job at you see Santa Barbara. Now they have 33 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: more talent at least on paper than everybody else, but 34 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: can they get to fit together. Eric Musselman's been to 35 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: two straight lead eights at Arkansas, right, So it's not 36 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: like Eric Musselman doesn't know what he's doing, but man 37 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: that they went from beating Duke and feeling like another 38 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: great year at Arkansas to an absolute mess. Villanova still 39 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: kind of hasn't figured out the ability to get consistent. 40 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: So it's a really interesting year. But one team that 41 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: has done well is Indiana State. That's where begin today 42 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: Josh Sure as a new head coach or I don't know, 43 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: it's a couple of years head coach at Indiana State, 44 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: and at least for the time being, they're still ranked. 45 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: Of course, coming off of a mid week loss after 46 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: a nine game winning streak, I think it's a perfect 47 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: time to sit down with the coach and catch up 48 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: with him, as they had to Southern Illinois to try 49 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: and kind of get right in the Valley. But a 50 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: program that comes from I don't want to say shambles, 51 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: but been down for so long in such a historically 52 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: challenging conference. And obviously the conference has changed over the 53 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: past couple of years, but still Indiana State not seen 54 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: as one of the breadwinners in the valley. And in 55 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: very short order, Jason Shirts has taken it from also 56 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: ran coaching change to a top the league. And then 57 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: of course you factor in what he was able to 58 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: construct at Lincoln Memorial, great Division two program. I had 59 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: to sit down with him and figure out his journey. 60 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: The most interesting part is how our paths collided twenty 61 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: five years ago when one of the great upsets maybe 62 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: in the recent history of college basketball took place. So 63 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: we'll start there. He's the head coach at Indiana State, 64 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: Josh Shirts. Do you remember what happened on this floor 65 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: before Atlantic? 66 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 2: I do. I was actually that Florida, Florida Atlanta coaching 67 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 2: when we played you guys and stopped what was like 68 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 2: a was it a ten year or something non conference 69 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 2: home winning streak or something crazy? 70 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: And it was eighty one game yep, non conference home winning. 71 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 2: That's what I remember. I remember that. I remember that was. Look, 72 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: we won six games that year. It wasn't hard to 73 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 2: remember the wins, but that one, for some reason stood 74 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 2: out a little bit more. I was that was my 75 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 2: first year coaching. We went to a state and you 76 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 2: guys were just so good, and it was just one 77 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 2: of those things in competition. It was like one night 78 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 2: and yeah, eighty one games. I remember just sitting there, No, no, okay, 79 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 2: so what what did your record? Like? You began? I 80 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: remember the loose ball. Gary Durant picked it up to 81 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 2: finish it. I remember that play at the very end 82 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: to win the game right on, like a scramble. One. Uh, 83 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 2: you had a if I remember correctly, you had a 84 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 2: gazillion assists that night. 85 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: Eighteen eighteen, actually. 86 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 2: Is it eighteen that would have felt like I was 87 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 2: gonna get picked sixteen. But I knew it was a lot. 88 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 2: I knew it was a lot. 89 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: But would you indulge me? And can I tell you 90 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: the story of that game from the other side? Ye? 91 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 2: Yop. 92 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: So the late Brooks Thompson, who was a great player 93 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: at OKLHOM State and became a very good coach. He 94 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: had he hurt his back playing for the Orlando Magic, Hm, 95 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: maybe the maybe the Nicks. I can't remember who he 96 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: heard his back playing for, but he heard his back. 97 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: So that year he was like a student manager. And 98 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: if you knew Brooks, he was like one of the 99 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: most ferocious shit talkers of all time all time. So 100 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: that was his first scattering report ever, Oh god, and 101 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: I believe the last report heard ever. So the way, 102 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: the way, and I'll be interested to know we'll get 103 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: into your own personal kind of coaching style. But one 104 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: of the things coach Setting used to do was in 105 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: those buy games, you'd walk in the locker room, you know, 106 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: for the last time, and there would be a list 107 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: of goals on the board. Then you know, it would 108 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: be like, hey, we shoot eighty from the line, you know, 109 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: over fifty from the field, you know, hold them under 110 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: thirty under, you know we score over eighty. I still 111 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: do it when I coach now, just the idea of, hey, 112 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,679 Speaker 1: let's don't don't worry about the scoreboard as much as 113 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: these are the goals, you know. And and one of 114 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: his things would be, especially against the team that was 115 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 1: seen as an inferior opponent, was if you do these 116 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: things tomorrow, you have off. If you don't, we're going 117 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: at seven am, right right the carrot. 118 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. 119 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: So so Brooks comes in and he's like, you don't 120 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: need to watch tape. This is the shittiest fucking team 121 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: him to ever take the floor the white I guess 122 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: Gallagher IBA the court, the floor, the surface is the 123 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: same surface they've always had to white maple. So this 124 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: is the worst team the step foot on the white 125 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: maple in the history of gallagher IB arena. We don't 126 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: come out if you unite, if you don't come out 127 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: and play your balls off, just fuck it. You don't 128 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: play your balls off. We're practicing at six am tomorrow. 129 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: Like he didn't have the authority to have a six 130 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: am practice, you know whatever. But still we had at 131 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: the time only three four scholarship guards or guards wings 132 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: available that year, there was kind of imbalanced roster and 133 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: we had Glenn and Alexander who was McDonald's American transfer 134 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: of Markansas and he was eligible like three games later, right, 135 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,239 Speaker 1: and so that was so it was Joe Atkins, myself, 136 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: Adrian petersoner best player, Decid Mason who want to play 137 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: the NBA, and then we just had a bunch of 138 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: big dudes, even some guys that are kind of like 139 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: hybrid big guys. So, Rex, is that coach correct for you? 140 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 2: Was it was? It was Kevin Billerman. 141 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: Okay, So Kevin had a great game plan. Okay, I 142 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: remember it. You guys would run flex and this is 143 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: back in the I think it was forty five second 144 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: shot clock air maybe thirty five second shot clock. Are 145 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: you guys would run flex for like thirty seconds and 146 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 1: then whoever our big guy was guarding would catch it 147 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: and go one four flat at the end of the 148 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: shot clock. Yeah, we we have, right, But you had 149 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: like six four six five guys. 150 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 2: Gary Durant, Damon Arnett, those kind of guys. 151 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So so they combined for like all, 152 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: but I think six or eight of your points really, 153 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: but I think that's like, so we're up. I want 154 00:08:57,840 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: to say again, this is just off the top of 155 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,319 Speaker 1: my head, like forty four to forty two and a 156 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 1: half and we come in and like again, this is 157 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: where coach setting was pretty cool. It was like he 158 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: let us kind of speak our mind a little bit. 159 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: We're like, coach, we got to go zone, and he's 160 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: like coage man guarders, man guard you man, Like coach, 161 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: they're isolating our big. We gotta they gotta guard and 162 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: our big. And the other part about our bigs were 163 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: it couldn't fucking score if you lock them in the gym, right, 164 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: they just couldn't. Unseen was a freshman, he couldn't. So 165 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: the fact that we had a mismatching offense didn't matter 166 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: because they couldn't score at all. Like it you know. 167 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 2: You on one end, but you were getting punished on 168 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 2: the other end. 169 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: So uh, we come on in the second half and 170 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: it's a little bit better. And then we're up and 171 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: I catch the ball like sideline obi and you guys 172 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: like surprise trap me, like the guy guarding the inbounder 173 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: and the guy who's guarding me trapped me. And I 174 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: try and rip and step through and I get the 175 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: ball stolen. They go down, go down and lay the ball. 176 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: It was one of the eight points scored by a guard. 177 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: And I had a little cut under my eye, and 178 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: like an asshole, like I got fouled, but instead of 179 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 1: just going like pointing to it, I just go it's 180 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: a fucking foul right there, you know, like I got 181 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: to catch my eye. So again we're up three. Pet 182 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: Nicole foul. Make both three throws down. One coach takes 183 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: me out of the game. Now we have two big 184 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: guys in who can't fucking guard anybody and can't score. 185 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: And you guys throwing a three then get a steal. 186 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,599 Speaker 1: Now it's like eight. Coach puts you back in. The 187 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: coach puts you back in the game. So then we 188 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: come down the end of the game. I think it's 189 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: a tie game, and you guys had the ball with 190 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: a minute. I'm gonna say like a minute five to go, 191 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 1: and late in the shot clock may it may have 192 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: been like a minute fifteen, So late in the shock clock, 193 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: he throw it into the post and Alex Weber are 194 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:12,079 Speaker 1: one center kicks it resets the shot clock. So now 195 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: we got to play defense again. So when we play defense, 196 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: we get Joe Atkins, who became an All American two 197 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: guard the next year, gets a rebound. I'm out of head. 198 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 1: Adrian Peterson, our best player, leaks out. He's out of him. 199 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: But there's some traffic and I don't think Gary Durant, 200 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: I think he made the lay in. I don't think 201 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: he got he made the lay So what happened was 202 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: though that your guys are sprinting back on defense, somebody 203 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: else tripped and fell down. Okay, and Atkins instead of 204 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: advancing the ball, he thought I was not open, so 205 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: he dribbles it and one of your guys who had tripped, 206 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: he dribbles off their foot. Gary Durant had missed a drive. 207 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: He was on the ground. He gets up to run 208 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: back on defense, and there's the picks it up, lays 209 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: it in. 210 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 2: Yes, yep. 211 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: And then the last part is this and this is well, 212 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: as it was almost game, it was like Tuesday, we 213 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: throw it in a mid court call of time out 214 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: and this right, we and then we don't we got 215 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: it kind of a shot or whatever. But it's very 216 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: interesting to me. Again, I'm my coaches was a great coach, 217 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: and Sean Sutton, who was basically our offensive coordinator did 218 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: an awesome job. But it's interesting how things change. We 219 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: didn't have like an under five inbounds play. M hm, 220 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: we didn't. We didn't have like go tos automatics based 221 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: upon time. You know, all the things that coaches do 222 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 1: now and they love all right under five years, what 223 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: we do under three years, we do under seven length 224 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: of the court, here's what we do like all of 225 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: these things. And I go up and I'm just amazed. 226 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: And when I coach, I love it, and kids like 227 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: it too because they like the five four three two 228 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: one thing didn't have one. Wow, we lose. And who 229 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: did the cartwheel for the fla? 230 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 2: I think that was was that I want to say, 231 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 2: it might have been James Turner or Kevin might It 232 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,719 Speaker 2: might have been Gary Durant or James Turner. Might have 233 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 2: been James Turner. 234 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: Right, So then of course on Sports Center, you know, 235 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 1: they have like it's basically like Zabruder footage because it 236 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: wasn't a televised game. It's some local like court level. 237 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: Gary Durant lays the ball in. Here's a backflip. Oklahoma 238 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: State ranked eighth in the country, losing home first home 239 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,199 Speaker 1: loss non Conference home loss in eighty one games. Right, 240 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: So we come in the next day and instead of 241 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: you know, Brooks like hat in hand, my bad, you know, 242 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: kind of one of us, they're showing that these motherfuckers 243 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: did a backflip on your court. And and I want 244 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: to thank Dusty May, I want to thank all those players, 245 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: because turns out we lost to a final fort program. 246 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 2: Also an elite program. You loved. No one's gonna remember that. 247 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 2: We were six and twenty that year, finished last place 248 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 2: in the in the in the what was it the 249 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 2: TVAC at that time, or whatever it was, the tack 250 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 2: and uh and and Billerman got fired at the end 251 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 2: of the year. No one will remember all that stuff. 252 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: Why did you get in Why did you get into coaching? Uh? 253 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 2: I loved UH loved competing. I loved being part of 254 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 2: a team. I felt like it kind of blended those 255 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 2: those things together. I loved I loved when I played 256 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 2: being part of a locker room, going in with a 257 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 2: group of guys, being unified, trying to accomplish something. Loved 258 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 2: just the whole dynamics of being a part of a team. 259 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 2: And then as I got into it, I really loved 260 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 2: and and I didn't probably when I started, didn't know. 261 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: But you know, as you go into it, Uh, the 262 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 2: relational side becomes the holy grail, right, the relationships you 263 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 2: developed with the players and and and while you're with them, 264 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 2: and then of course when they leave, you know, it 265 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 2: turns from like it's like like you do with your parents. 266 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 2: You know, you go from you know, father's son to 267 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 2: friends over time, right, and it's kind of the same thing. 268 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 2: You go from player, coach to friends and they really become, 269 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 2: you know, people that you value in your life and 270 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 2: relationships because you get to know somebody when you coach 271 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 2: them or on a team with them, play with them, whatever, 272 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 2: on a deeper level, you know, because you see them 273 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 2: at their best and at their worst and in success 274 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 2: and adversity and failure and triumph and you know you 275 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 2: you you know, blood sweat and tears with somebody's a 276 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 2: different type of relationship. And then you know, and then 277 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 2: the ability to help guys, you know, grow and get better. 278 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: Say, leave Florida Atlantic And what was it like to 279 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: try and go find a job? 280 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 2: It was it was hard. I mean I had you know, 281 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 2: so I got into it. I gave up, you know, 282 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 2: I wasn't a very good player. Gave up my senior 283 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 2: year of playing to go work at Floridatlantic as a 284 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 2: graduate assistant. But I didn't graduate, so I was really 285 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: a student assistant and they out with tuition, but I was, 286 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 2: you know, I was working a lot for free. And 287 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: at the end of the year, coach Billerman got fired 288 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: and I was in there when he got fired. I 289 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 2: didn't know anything. I was, you know, twenty two, twenty 290 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 2: three years old, didn't even know how that worked. And 291 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 2: next thing, you know, they they moved the whole staff 292 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 2: except for me and one of the assistants. And so 293 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: I go from I take a recruiting test, and I'm 294 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 2: recruiting and working at Florida Atlantic as a you know, 295 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: an assistant, but just me and me and one of 296 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 2: the other assistants or the whole program. They they hired 297 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: Sidney Green, who was who replaced Kevin Billerman. And when 298 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 2: they hired Sidney, he brought me in, and you know, 299 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 2: and and Sidney brought me in and and let me 300 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 2: go from basically a volunteer job. He was like that 301 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: the the players really liked me, spoke highly of me, 302 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 2: but that our players were the opposite of winners, and 303 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 2: so that must say a lot about me. Basically was 304 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: the gist of the conversation was the players like me 305 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 2: and they were you know, lose. Then that doesn't say 306 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 2: much about me. And so I was out of a job. 307 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 2: And Coach Billerman, to his credit, him to do anything 308 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 2: for me. I mean he barely you know, we worked 309 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 2: together for one year. He called a bunch of different people. 310 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 2: He got me some options at Florida Southern at Lynn University. 311 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 2: I decided, because I had a kid, I was, I 312 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 2: had a son, a young son, I was going to 313 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 2: stay in Boca. And that's what I did. I went 314 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,959 Speaker 2: to Lynn University, which was literally a mile away. I 315 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 2: finished my degree that next year at at FAU while 316 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 2: I worked at Lynn. And uh and that was so 317 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 2: I stayed in Boca for for those next two years. 318 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 2: But uh, but coach Billerman, you know, without him, I 319 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 2: want to have that opportunity. 320 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: Who was at coach Lynn. 321 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,959 Speaker 2: Andy Russo, who was carmel Oone's coach Louisiana Tech coached 322 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 2: at Washington Wash had like Christian Belp and all those guys, 323 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 2: but he had been a power five. Uh, you know, 324 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 2: head coach had a lot of success, and he he 325 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 2: hired me there at lynn first year is just as 326 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 2: just an assistant. And then my second year after I graduated, 327 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 2: I went as a graduate assistant. But in D two 328 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 2: it's so different. You know. On my first year, you know, 329 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 2: I was working as just getting paid five thousand dollars, 330 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 2: but I was able to recruit new player development, you know, 331 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 2: I mean scouting reports. I was doing everything because I 332 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 2: was so small, And so my two years there, I 333 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 2: was working out the bigs, working out the guards, doing 334 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 2: scouting reports, on the road, recruiting like I was getting 335 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 2: incredible hands on experience. No money, but a tremendous experience 336 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 2: because it was really you know, my first year was me, 337 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 2: him and one of the guys. My second year was me, 338 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 2: him and a GA. So I got great experience those 339 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,239 Speaker 2: two years working with Andy, and he was he was 340 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 2: just like Kevin Billerman, you know, experienced, older guy, knew 341 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 2: his stuff and was really really good to me. 342 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 3: Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in 343 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 3: the nation. Catch all of our shows at foxsports Radio 344 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 3: dot com and within the iHeart Radio app search f 345 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 3: s R to listen live. 346 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: Give me one thing from Billerman that you still say 347 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 1: or do today. 348 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 2: I think, Uh, the probably the biggest thing for for 349 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 2: coach Billerman that I take today is is how much 350 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,360 Speaker 2: he uh genuinely cared for the players and how much 351 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 2: time he spent building relationships with them, Like he he 352 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 2: was really invested in our guys. He was really investis 353 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 2: And the other thing that I thought he did a 354 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 2: good job of was, you know, he tried to put 355 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 2: guys in their straint zones to play to there, you know, 356 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 2: put them in positions to do what they do best. 357 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 2: And those are probably two things that I take that 358 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 2: that that you know, I learned from him very early on. 359 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: All Right, what about Russo? 360 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 2: Russo I think was was the big picture approach, understanding 361 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 2: that you know, the whole program, medical piece and how 362 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 2: everything ties together. You know, you have recruiting, and recruiting 363 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 2: has to fit how you're going to play, and you 364 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 2: got to have a vision for how you're going to 365 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 2: build your team. It shouldn't just be you know, willy 366 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 2: nilly when you go out and grab a guy, grab 367 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 2: a guy, grab a guy. You know, the piece of 368 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 2: the puzzle have to fit together and compment each other. 369 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 2: And he had a good you know, gauge of trying 370 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 2: to look at it from a ten thousand foot view 371 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 2: of how to build a team, how to build a program, 372 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 2: and how everything tied together. 373 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: So you leave, Lynn, what was what was the what 374 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: was the plan? 375 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 2: Well, I got offered, which seemed at the time a 376 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 2: lot of money. I got offered like twelve thousand dollars 377 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 2: to move to Charlotte, North Carolina. And Bart Lundy was 378 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 2: the head coach at at at Queen's University of Charlotte, 379 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 2: and so we were Division two and I got like 380 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 2: twelve thousand, five hundred and a dorm room. So I 381 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,640 Speaker 2: thought I was about to be rich it with more 382 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 2: money than I made the previous three years combined. So 383 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 2: it was it was pretty good. I went there, worked 384 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 2: for Bart. My first year we were pretty good, and 385 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,239 Speaker 2: then my second year we were really good. We were 386 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:12,719 Speaker 2: number one in the country most of the year, went 387 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 2: to the final four, and uh and so the second year, 388 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 2: you know, we we had a really good year, and 389 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 2: then uh, Bart got offered the job at high Point 390 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 2: after my after my second year there, I think it 391 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 2: was his fifth year, and so, uh, you know, I 392 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 2: didn't really you know, Lynn, I was going to stay 393 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 2: at you know, Bart I think, you know, they recruited 394 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 2: Florida hard and uh. He he had some people down there. 395 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 2: He knew Nate Dixon, who was his assistant, really recruited Florida, 396 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 2: had gone to Stetson Division one. Bart was trying to 397 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 2: find somebody that could recruit Florida. I'd been down there 398 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 2: for a couple of years, and so for me, it 399 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 2: was it was a no brainer and a great experience. 400 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 2: I went with him, uh for for two years there, 401 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 2: and then I was his associated coach at high Point 402 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 2: for five years. So I was I was with bart 403 00:21:58,800 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 2: the next seven years. 404 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 1: Now it was high Point D one when you guys, 405 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: when you were guys were there. 406 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So he left Queens to go to high Point, 407 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 2: which was Division one. They had just finished the transition 408 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 2: under Jerry Steele, the four year transition and coach Steel, 409 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 2: who was obviously a legendary coach. He coached him through 410 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 2: the transition and stepped away. Bartt was hired from from 411 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: Queen's to high Point as their first you know, that 412 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 2: was the first year they were eligible for the NCAA 413 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 2: Tournament win the Big South. 414 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: High Points an amazing campus. It's like it's it's it's 415 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: crazy now that's now. Was it like that then? 416 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: So when I got there, it wasn't like that at 417 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 2: all at all, and then we Uh I was there 418 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 2: my first couple of years, there was really nothing going 419 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 2: on. I was almost like it was gonna it was going 420 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 2: to close. And then the president stepped down, he retired, 421 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,680 Speaker 2: and they hired the guy who was a chair of 422 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: the board at high Point, a guy named Nito Colbain, 423 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 2: and uh and doctor Cobain stepped in to fill a void. 424 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 2: And the deal was he was going to do it 425 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 2: for one year and then, you know, turn it over 426 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 2: to somebody else, and that's had to be I don't know. 427 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 2: Nineteen years later, he's still doing it. And he single 428 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 2: handedly transformed that university from a mom and pop like 429 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 2: barely keep you know, the doors open, to like what 430 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 2: you see today. And i'ven't been back in a couple 431 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 2: of years, but even when I was there in my 432 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 2: last couple of years, the campus was transforming. They were building. 433 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,719 Speaker 2: There was cranes everywhere, dirt being moved everywhere, they were 434 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 2: knocking stuff down, rebuilding everything. And he took something that 435 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 2: I mean, if you were to go back to nineteen 436 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 2: years ago to now talking about what Dusty's done at FAU, 437 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 2: doctor Cobain would get the same level of credit for 438 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 2: me for what he's done for High Point University. As 439 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 2: a in totality, it's amazing what he's been able to do. 440 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: Bart had great success at Queens, had success Highpoint obviously, 441 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: He's had success Milwaukee as well. Yeah, what's allowed him 442 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 1: to have that success? 443 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 2: I think, you know, there's a couple of things. One, 444 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 2: you know, Bart is a guy that he understands, you know, 445 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 2: a lot like coach Billerman did. He puts guys in 446 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 2: positions to be successful like he can. You know, they 447 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 2: run great stuff, get their best players the ball in 448 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 2: their strain zones. He is, he is really demanding. He 449 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 2: asks a lot of his guys. He pushes him, cares 450 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 2: about him. I think he invests in them. He's a 451 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 2: terrific recruiter. They get good talent. He understands what fits 452 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 2: his system, you know, And and he gets his guys 453 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 2: to compete, you know, he gets his guys to compete 454 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 2: at high level. You know. We you know, it was 455 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 2: weird because I worked for him for seven years and 456 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 2: then when I was at Lincoln Memorial the last thirteen 457 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 2: he took over back at Queen's. Well, Queen's came to 458 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,479 Speaker 2: our league, and you know, so we were, you know, 459 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 2: we were playing four times a year. I mean we 460 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 2: were there was many years. You know, we were I 461 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 2: think eight years in a row. We finished one two 462 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 2: in the league, and so we played a lot of 463 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 2: high stakes games, regional championships, tournament championships, conference championships, and so. 464 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 2: But his ability to put guys in their straining zone, 465 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 2: his ability to recruit, and he recruits hard, gets really 466 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 2: good players, and then he allowed, like I said, puts 467 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 2: them in positions to do what they do best. And 468 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 2: I think he's done a great job. But it's a 469 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 2: great job building a relationships. You could tell his guys 470 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 2: care about him and and that you know he's invested 471 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 2: in them. And so he's been very successful every stop 472 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 2: of the way. And it'll be the same at Milwaukee. 473 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,399 Speaker 2: You know, he's already shown I think twenty two wins 474 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 2: last year and you know they've been beat up a 475 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: little bit this year. But but he he'll do and 476 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 2: continue to do a great job. 477 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: Okay, so take me through the Lincoln Memorial job. How'd 478 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: you get it? 479 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 2: Nobody else wanted it. So it was I mean, you know. 480 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: It first first okay. So but again, you're at high point. Okay, 481 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: you've been with the same guy, you having some success, 482 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: Like were you looking everywhere he had you even know 483 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: it was open, let alone know that no one wanted it. 484 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I had. I had been at high point 485 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 2: at this point for five years. I was the associated coach. 486 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 2: We were pretty good. I think we were like maybe 487 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 2: eighty seven and sixty six or eighty eight and sixty 488 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 2: six and my dad eighty six five. In my five 489 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 2: years there, we'd had pretty good teams, you know, we 490 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 2: just hadn't got over the hump. It was uh, you know, 491 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 2: we had Greg Marshall and Winthrop there who were kind 492 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 2: of dominating the league. We got into a couple of 493 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 2: championship games, never got to the NCAA tournament. But about 494 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 2: my third year there, I was really antsy to get 495 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 2: a head coaching job. Felt like, you know, I was 496 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 2: obviously worked for some really good coaches. I had some 497 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 2: ideas of what I wanted to do, and I wanted 498 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 2: to apply them, but I couldn't get a job. As 499 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, the first one is always the hardest, 500 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 2: right everybody says, well, you know, you have no head 501 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 2: coaching experience. Well not that anybody before they became a 502 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 2: head coach. So you know there's a lot of great 503 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 2: Hall of Fame coaches, Eddie Sutton, all these guys that 504 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 2: you know, they weren't head coaches until they became head coaches, right, 505 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 2: So so you know, you got to get a chance. 506 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 2: And I interviewed for some jobs Division two, couldn't get them. 507 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 2: And so after my fifth year, they changed, you know, 508 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 2: they let go of the athletic director. They brought in 509 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 2: a new athletic director. They had I think talked to 510 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 2: Bart about a contract extension that kind of got squashed 511 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 2: with the new athletic director coming in. So not that 512 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 2: it was you know, at the time, you're not thinking 513 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 2: anything negative. I think we had won forty one games 514 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 2: the previous two years or forty games the previous two years. 515 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 2: But it was a little bit uneasy and I was 516 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 2: looking I did really want to become a head coach 517 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,719 Speaker 2: and try to see if I could do it myself. 518 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 2: And I wanted to, you know, I wanted to take 519 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 2: control of my career, you know, if I could. And 520 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 2: so Lincoln Memorial was a job that was in the 521 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 2: middle of nowhere, Tennessee. Uh four thousand people in the 522 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 2: town uh Dry County, you know, and uh I think 523 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 2: the undergraduate you know, population time was about a thousand, 524 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 2: maybe a little less. They were had finished uh you know, 525 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 2: last most every year. They've never won twenty games at 526 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 2: the NCAA level, never been to the NCAA tournament, you know, never. 527 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 2: They had a really nice arena, and that was about it. 528 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 2: And but I, you know, I was I wanted to 529 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 2: try it, you know, and and and the the I 530 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 2: guess the thing I thought was, you know, it's in 531 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 2: the middle of nowhere, but you're you had close proximity 532 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 2: to a lot of different things. You were four hours 533 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 2: from Atlanta, four hours from Charlotte, three from Cincinnati, four 534 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 2: and a half from Columbus, four from any and a half. 535 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: That's not that's not close to places. 536 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 2: But if in my mind it was close enough. 537 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, four hours. 538 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 2: That was That was how I convinced myself to that 539 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 2: we could go recruit all those areas and fine guys, 540 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 2: and but it was, you know, it was it was 541 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,479 Speaker 2: just they had a beautiful arena and that was it. 542 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 2: And they were coming off I think they had won 543 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 2: one conference game that year, and and again, you know, 544 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 2: just I think four or five winning seasons in the 545 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 2: in the NCAA history, So it had been a hard 546 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 2: place to win. And I don't know who else they 547 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 2: were looking at, but I went up there interviewed, had 548 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 2: probably the worst experience ever. But oh they they well 549 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 2: they just brought me in and and uh so I 550 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 2: get in and the the a d I couldn't get 551 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 2: a hold of him on the way in, and uh 552 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 2: we're supposed to meet and he's like, oh, well, go 553 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 2: and he finally picks up. I guess he was out 554 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 2: gardening or something. He's like, well, go eat at this 555 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 2: restaurant in town. It was only like one in town. 556 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 2: So he sends me to go eat at this restaurant. 557 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 2: I go in this restaurant and Italia, my wife and 558 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 2: I eat, and then we're supposed to go over to 559 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 2: the arena. I go to the arena. He shows me 560 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 2: the nice arena, takes us in the locker room. The 561 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 2: ceiling titles are missing, I mean the floors, the carpet's frayed. 562 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 2: I mean they can see the concrete below it. The 563 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 2: lockers are all rusted and metal. I go he puts 564 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 2: me in a meeting and I'm not going to mention names, 565 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 2: but the women's coach at the time and the women's 566 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 2: coach at the time, that's who he wanted me to 567 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 2: meet with. He tells me, he's like, don't take this ship. 568 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 2: He's like, whatever, he can't win here, you know, it's impossible, 569 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 2: blah blah blah. Goes into this whole thing about what 570 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 2: a terrible job it is and then I should leave 571 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 2: that he's going to try to leave. And to his credit, 572 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 2: before I coached a game, he took a high school job. 573 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 2: He left LMU as a head coach women's coach to 574 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 2: take a women's high school job. So he wasn't you know, 575 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,719 Speaker 2: bsing me at the time, and so so he tells me, 576 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 2: don't do it. So then I got to go and 577 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 2: I got to check into my hotel. Well, yes, exactly what. 578 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 2: So I go to this hotel and this hotel has 579 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 2: no lobby and it's like, if you need something, knocked 580 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 2: on this door. So I have to knock on this 581 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 2: doors and out door hotel. So I know a hotel, Yeah, 582 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 2: it actually has a motel. I knock on the door 583 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 2: and nobody answers. Knocking on the door again. This guy 584 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 2: opens the door. He's got on a wife, beat her 585 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 2: and tidy whities and my wife. And that was the hotel, 586 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 2: the motel manager. So we take us to our I mean, 587 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 2: it was just like, I mean, I get up the 588 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,479 Speaker 2: next morning, they take me to a nice breakfast at 589 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 2: Shoney's uh and uh and and that was the big 590 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 2: spot in town. 591 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: And so biscuits and gravy. 592 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 2: Question, yeah, biscuits. I was just like at the time, 593 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 2: I was just so I wanted the opportunity. I took 594 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 2: the job. 595 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: What did your wife? What did your wife say? 596 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 2: She I'm not even into it. She cried, I mean 597 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 2: cried like when I told her I was taking it 598 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 2: like she was devastated and really was probably cried most 599 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 2: of the first two years we were there. I told 600 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 2: her at the time, I said, look, I said, this 601 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 2: will probably either I'll be able to win some games 602 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 2: here and we'll be here for two years and I'll leave, 603 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 2: or I won't be able to win and we'll just 604 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 2: go back and go to Vision one as an assistant 605 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 2: or something and I'll find a job. But like, we 606 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:10,719 Speaker 2: won't be here more than two years, you know, just 607 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 2: and I was there at thirteen, so you know, it 608 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 2: grew on us. But but yeah, at the time, I 609 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, what did I get myself into? 610 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 2: You move? 611 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: So did you buy a house? Do you rent? Can 612 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: you rent the house? 613 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 2: Like? 614 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: What was that? 615 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 2: We rented an apartment because we couldn't afford. We had 616 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,959 Speaker 2: my house in high Point and I went from making 617 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 2: I was making sixty three at high Point. They offered 618 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 2: me seventy five to stay and I took fifty to 619 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 2: go to LMU and I negotiated to get to fifty, 620 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 2: so I took a pay cut and I still had 621 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 2: my house in high Point. And if you remember about 622 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 2: two thousand and eight, that was when you know there 623 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 2: there was you know, the market crashed in two thousand 624 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 2: and eight, the recession, right, So yeah, well this is 625 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 2: two thousand and eight. So we have a house. Our 626 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 2: house got, I mean it was I couldn't even tell 627 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 2: you our house got. There was a tree in the backyard, 628 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 2: it got struck by lightning, fell on our roof. We 629 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 2: got a flood. The one of the realtors flipped a 630 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 2: Swiss so it was a light it was it was 631 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 2: actually the heat turned off the heat in the winter, 632 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 2: the pipes burst flooded the house. I mean, it was 633 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 2: like I could tell you. But we got an apartment, 634 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 2: and the apartment it was so new, it had no stairs, 635 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,239 Speaker 2: it wasn't even finished yet. So we're living in an 636 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 2: unfinished apartment. Like some of the dry walls up, some 637 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 2: of it's not like we're like the first people in there. 638 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 2: So needless to say, I don't know how she stayed 639 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 2: with me on this deal, but we rented an apartment 640 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 2: about five minutes everything in harri Get's five minutes, so 641 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 2: five minutes from the school. 642 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: How long does it take you to build a winner? 643 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 2: The first year we got into five hundred, which was 644 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 2: you know, I mean where we were a massive jump, 645 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 2: you know, more than doubled our wind total. Second year, 646 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 2: we win twenty for the first time in school history 647 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 2: at the NCAA level. Year we started twenty two and 648 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 2: oh and won the championship regular season tournament, went to 649 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 2: the NCAA tournament. That kind of started that ten year 650 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 2: run where you know, we we had I think we 651 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 2: won about eighty eight eighty nine percent of our games 652 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:13,240 Speaker 2: over that ten year window. 653 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: Okay, so you take over a job you've never been 654 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: a head coach before, and you didn't even finish your 655 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: career playing, right, So when you first start uh talking 656 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: to your team meeting, you know, are you're in meetings, 657 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: how'd you kind of like find your voice? 658 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 2: Like? 659 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: Who did you? Did you feel like you were like 660 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: Bart or you were like one of the other coaches? 661 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: What were you like in those early stages? 662 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 2: That's interesting. I probably I probably was an amalgam of 663 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 2: each of them, you know, Like you know, Bart was 664 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 2: probably like, you know, the more like fire and brimstone, motivational, 665 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 2: Billerman was more like laid back, and and then you know, 666 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 2: and and Russo was pretty funny. I probably tried to 667 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 2: early on try to be an amalgam of all of 668 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 2: them because you're finding yourself, right, Like, you got to 669 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 2: know who you are right like to address a team, 670 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 2: to command a room, to create buy in, like, you 671 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 2: got to figure out who you are, and ultimately that's 672 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 2: the key to the successes. You can't be somebody else. 673 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 2: But I probably early in my career was trying to, 674 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 2: you know, have a little bit of humor, be a 675 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 2: little bit of fire and brimstone, and also keep the 676 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 2: mood the vibe a little lighter. I don't know that 677 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 2: how successful I was at that early, but I think 678 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 2: that's one of the biggest things is you got to 679 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 2: figure out, like you know, at the end of the day, 680 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 2: coaching is leadership and leadership whatever you're doing, whether it's 681 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,240 Speaker 2: coaching or any other deal, Like your number one job 682 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 2: far and away is to get the best out of 683 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 2: everybody that you're in charge of, right, Like, that's leadership. 684 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 2: And there's a lot of ways to do that. You 685 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 2: can do it through you know, fear, you can do 686 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 2: it through you know really you know, being being super demanding. 687 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 2: You can do it through connection. And I just found 688 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 2: like for me, at the end of the day, the 689 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 2: best way I can lead is through connection. Is to 690 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,280 Speaker 2: really try to connect with my guys to really everish. 691 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 2: But early on, I think I was a little bit 692 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 2: all over the place because I didn't necessarily have myself 693 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 2: figured out yet. 694 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: How do you know if you're going to connect with 695 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: a kid when you're recruiting. 696 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 2: The hardest part I think you have to you know, 697 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 2: I always recruit by trying to At LMU, it became easy, 698 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,479 Speaker 2: and I'll say not easy, but here's why it became 699 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 2: a little bit easy. Like when I look at somebody 700 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 2: and you're recruiting them, to me, the most important aspect 701 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 2: is their competitive character. Right, That's probably the hardest thing 702 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 2: to gauge in. Somebody is truly like who they are 703 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 2: as a competitor, and so whether that's you know, do 704 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 2: they care deeply about the preparation piece. Do they really 705 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,320 Speaker 2: care about you know, all the things are going to 706 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 2: prepare and to play they Are they a great teammate? 707 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 2: You know? Are they coachable? Are they mentally tough? Are 708 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 2: they somebody that care about that they played for stats? 709 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 2: They play to win, right, And there's a big difference 710 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 2: in all those things. At LMU, it became a little 711 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 2: bit simpler because we wound up red shirting everybody. So 712 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 2: we found out right away, like if you know, you're 713 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,359 Speaker 2: in this small town of four thousand people, there's it's 714 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 2: a dry county, so you can't even drink if you 715 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 2: wanted to, you got to go to Knoxville to get 716 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 2: a drink. There's no clubs, no bars, there's barely any restaurants, 717 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 2: and you're gonna red shirt and likely not play for 718 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 2: your first couple of years. It really quickly eliminated a 719 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 2: lot of people that you know, if you came to LMU, 720 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 2: you were about the right things right Like for us, 721 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 2: you were about basketball, you were about work, You were 722 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 2: about trying to be the best player you can be. 723 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 2: You were about winning. You want to be in a 724 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,720 Speaker 2: winning culture. You wanted the relational piece, like you wanted 725 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 2: all these things that we could give you, and you 726 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,959 Speaker 2: were okay with the patients. And just a red shirt 727 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 2: shows a level of humility that a lot of people 728 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 2: don't have, you know, So to me, it was it 729 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 2: got a little easier as we built that program to 730 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 2: be able to discern who exactly fit and who exactly 731 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 2: did it. But I think the best way is to 732 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 2: be completely transparent. I think people recruit two ways. People 733 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 2: recruit to get the kid. Some people recruit to make 734 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 2: it work. Does that make sense? Like, you know, if 735 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 2: you recruiting to get the kids, you're going to sell 736 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 2: the kid. You're selling, you're selling, you're selling, and then 737 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 2: you know and then try to figure it out and 738 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 2: they get there. If you're recruiting to make it work, 739 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,320 Speaker 2: then you're actually going to be transparent upfront and honest 740 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,760 Speaker 2: on the front end. Because I felt like at LNU 741 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 2: and I feel like in Indiana State, the only pathway 742 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 2: to sustainable success is continuity. If I'm having to re 743 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 2: engineer my roster every year the way we play, we're 744 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 2: not going to be very good. So I began I 745 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 2: probably early on I recruited to get the kid. I 746 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 2: would just, hey, what do I got to do to 747 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 2: get this kid? Okay, we're gonna you know, yeah, we're 748 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 2: gonna do this. We're gonna do this, do this. I 749 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 2: eventually figured out that you've got to recruit to make 750 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 2: it work, and you've got to recruit. It's got to 751 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,399 Speaker 2: be the right fit both ways. And if it's not, 752 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 2: you're going to be in this constant state of churning 753 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,839 Speaker 2: it over year after year after year. And that our 754 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 2: pathway at LMU, and our pathway in Indiana State, quite frankly, 755 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 2: is through continuity. And the only way to sustainability is 756 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 2: because we can't even here, you know, we can't go 757 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 2: out and recruit a bunch of power bud transfers and 758 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 2: bring them in and reload every year. Our pathway is 759 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,240 Speaker 2: getting guys. You know, we call it corporate knowledge building, 760 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,360 Speaker 2: corporate knowledge, how we play, how we do things, Guys 761 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,839 Speaker 2: in this system get better year over year over year. 762 00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 2: If we pour into them for a year and then 763 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 2: we lose them year, you know we're going to be 764 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 2: starting at ground zero every single year. You can't and 765 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 2: the way we do things, I don't think that's a 766 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 2: model we could we could have, so that would probably 767 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 2: be to me. The biggest thing is recruit to make 768 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 2: it work, not recruit to get the kid and be 769 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 2: as transparent and as open as possible about what it's 770 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:17,880 Speaker 2: going to be like. 771 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 1: And you got to be willing to losing guys because 772 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: of that, you know, you got to be wanted absolutely. 773 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 2: Would you rather lose them in the recruiting process or 774 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 2: lose them in the middle of the season when they 775 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Or you know, like right, 776 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 2: I mean, like to me, if you know you were 777 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 2: going to lose that guy anyway? And I tell my 778 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 2: staff all the time, you're never going to get fired 779 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 2: for missing out on good players. Ever, what gets you 780 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 2: fired is taking bad players or bad fits, right, Like, 781 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 2: You're never going to get asked for, Man, I missed 782 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 2: on so and so, I missed on so and so 783 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,760 Speaker 2: we didn't get this kid. You're going to get fired 784 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,240 Speaker 2: because you took either guys who didn't fit, wrong players, 785 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,399 Speaker 2: those things, and when you look at it that way, 786 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 2: you don't worry as much about losing guys because that's 787 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 2: not really what's going to ultimately, you know, you know, 788 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 2: move your fate either way. It's about the guys you 789 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 2: take much more than the guys you lose. 790 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: Year three or twenty two and zero. Why not leave 791 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: that year? 792 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,400 Speaker 2: You know, there was there was opportunities. The thing that 793 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 2: LMU did over my time was they really made the 794 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 2: job better. Our chairman of the board at LMU, Pete 795 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 2: the Busk, you know, he became like a over the years, 796 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:37,359 Speaker 2: a father figure to me, and they made that job 797 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,320 Speaker 2: to where if I was going to leave, it was 798 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 2: going to be really hard for me to leave. And 799 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 2: it wasn't a one year deal, but they every year 800 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 2: came back and built it and said we're gonna do this, 801 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 2: We're gonna do this, we're gonna do this. And so 802 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 2: a job that started on my base salary was fifty 803 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 2: thousand dollars finished where my base salary was two hundred 804 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,160 Speaker 2: and fifty thousand dollars, and we had one assistant a 805 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,960 Speaker 2: A and all of a sudden we had three full 806 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 2: time assistants and two gas and our budget, which was 807 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 2: the lowest in the league, became the highest in the country. 808 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,919 Speaker 2: And we built a nutrition room in a film room 809 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,279 Speaker 2: and and they put all these things in and you know, 810 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 2: so we had the best resources, best job, and I 811 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 2: had a what equated to a lifetime contract, had a 812 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,479 Speaker 2: five year rollover that at the end of the year. Uh, 813 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 2: they could fire me and pay me a million dollars, 814 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,239 Speaker 2: or they could roll me over for five more years. 815 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,160 Speaker 1: When did you When did you? When'd you buy a house? Uh? 816 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 2: After year three? After year three? When I when when 817 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,680 Speaker 2: we had that success and I was like, let's get 818 00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 2: out of this apartment and we moved into a house 819 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 2: and it was just the right time, and you know 820 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,880 Speaker 2: it was, uh it turned into, you know, for me, 821 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,799 Speaker 2: a dream job. At that level, I felt like, uh, 822 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,360 Speaker 2: you know, it was kind of like, you know, Camelot, 823 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:50,800 Speaker 2: you told me I had I had a great president, 824 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,279 Speaker 2: great a d chair of the board, completely invested, and 825 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,560 Speaker 2: I've never been somebody who you know, I didn't feel like, 826 00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 2: oh man, I got to go to vision one to 827 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 2: make something happen, you know, or I got to validate 828 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 2: myself at this level, you know, like we're talking like 829 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,759 Speaker 2: I'm we're coaching against great coaches in that league. You 830 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:09,399 Speaker 2: know Bart's in there. You got a bunch of really 831 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 2: good coaches inside of the South Atlantic Conference and Ben 832 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 2: McCullum and all these guys. You're going against Jim Crutchfield, 833 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 2: and there's great coaches. And I felt completely fulfilled there 834 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,360 Speaker 2: over over that tenure, and they just kept making the 835 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,400 Speaker 2: job better and better and better every single year. So 836 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,799 Speaker 2: while I had some Division I head coaching opportunities, I 837 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 2: never felt like it was the right one for me 838 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 2: to leave. There was one, you know, I was a 839 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:36,840 Speaker 2: Division one head coach for one day, but then the 840 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,719 Speaker 2: chancellor came in the next day and changed his mind 841 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,440 Speaker 2: and overturned the committee and the ad and they hired 842 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,120 Speaker 2: somebody else, and so I was. That was after the 843 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:52,279 Speaker 2: two thousand eighteen seventeen season. After seventeen whoe is that? 844 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,240 Speaker 2: I like? As I say it now, it was Arkansas 845 00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 2: Little Rock Chase Konk who had hired Chris Beard from 846 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:06,840 Speaker 2: Division two. Chase had hired Chris, they had success left, 847 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 2: they hired the associated coach their two years, they moved 848 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 2: on from him, and Chase brought me in a little Rock, 849 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 2: and they just really clicked with him, connected with him, 850 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 2: interviewed with him, and the committee got hired. And then 851 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,959 Speaker 2: the chancellor who I'd met with, came back and said 852 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,319 Speaker 2: that they were going to go a different route. So 853 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:27,719 Speaker 2: that was. 854 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:33,879 Speaker 1: That, that's crazy. The COVID year was your best team? Right? 855 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,920 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I think so. I mean with in a 856 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,280 Speaker 2: row when COVID hit, we had won thirty two straight, 857 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:41,720 Speaker 2: so yeah, it was a pretty good team. 858 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,719 Speaker 1: Where were you? Where were you when when everything ends? 859 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,480 Speaker 2: So we we we had beat Queens in the tournament 860 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,359 Speaker 2: championship on that Sunday in front of a packed house 861 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,759 Speaker 2: at Furman, which is where we did our tournament, you know, 862 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:01,280 Speaker 2: and Monday Tuesday, like there was crazy because that Sunday, 863 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 2: I mean, nobody's even talking about COVID and we're in 864 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,359 Speaker 2: a packed house at Furman playing for a conference championship. Well, 865 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,440 Speaker 2: Monday Tuesday, we give the guys off, we come back Wednesday. Wednesday, 866 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,800 Speaker 2: we start hearing about that, you know, they may that 867 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,239 Speaker 2: they put out something that they were going to restrict 868 00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:21,759 Speaker 2: attendance at the games, you know, because of COVID. I 869 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:23,919 Speaker 2: was like, that's weird because you know, but you didn't 870 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 2: really know. Well, Wednesday night, I'm at dinner with my 871 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,640 Speaker 2: wife and kids, and I think that was that. Wednesday 872 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,200 Speaker 2: night was when go baar and all that stuff happens, 873 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,359 Speaker 2: and they the game, and I remember sitting on my wife, 874 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:40,919 Speaker 2: I said, I said, we're not going to play. They're gonna. 875 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,080 Speaker 2: They're gonna. I didn't think they would cancer them. I 876 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 2: thought they would postpone it, but I didn't know what 877 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,960 Speaker 2: they would do. So Thursday morning, we're on these calls 878 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,239 Speaker 2: and they're like, no, we're going to proceed right now, 879 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 2: we're proceeding. I was like, are we one hundred percent? 880 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 2: You know, at the moment, and everything seemed like it 881 00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,239 Speaker 2: was a go. So I know the guys in the 882 00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 2: locker room, I'm on the practice floor. We're practicing on Thursday. 883 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 2: We play Saturday in the first round. You know, we're uh, 884 00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:08,719 Speaker 2: you know, thirty two wins in a row, number one 885 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:11,719 Speaker 2: seed in the NCAA tournament, playing at home. And my 886 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 2: associate D comes out and where he's like like I 887 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,000 Speaker 2: could see emotion of me. So I kind of slide 888 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:22,440 Speaker 2: over to the sideline. He's like, they canceled the NCAA tournament. 889 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,000 Speaker 2: I was like, they postponed it to win and he's like, no, 890 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,840 Speaker 2: they they've canceled it. And I looked at him, like 891 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,160 Speaker 2: and I couldn't even, like, I mean, believe it. And 892 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,920 Speaker 2: I had to. I stopped practice and I brought the 893 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:39,799 Speaker 2: guys in and he's like, he's I'm like, it's the 894 00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:41,920 Speaker 2: season over. He's like, it's over. Like they're not going 895 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,359 Speaker 2: to replay. It's done. And I just like, I mean, 896 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 2: like about like taking the breath out of you. And 897 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,360 Speaker 2: I brought the team in and I we had you know, 898 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:53,760 Speaker 2: four seniors on that team, and guys that have been close. 899 00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,560 Speaker 2: I mean we've been to multiple final fours, you know 900 00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,040 Speaker 2: with this group and had a group that, like I said, 901 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:03,040 Speaker 2: you know, thirty two straight wins, and you know, guys 902 00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,480 Speaker 2: were just really emotional. I mean everybody was started crying. 903 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,319 Speaker 2: I taught the team. I went in my office and 904 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,000 Speaker 2: I cried for about ten minutes. I really did, and uh, 905 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 2: I was just so sad for everybody involved. And then 906 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 2: I went back to the locker room and I was like, 907 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,360 Speaker 2: we're going to go out tonight and uh, you know, celebrate, 908 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,760 Speaker 2: you know, before this all. And and so that Thursday 909 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,160 Speaker 2: night we went out and I brought the whole staff 910 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,839 Speaker 2: and Athletic Farmers staff, and I don't know what we spent, 911 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:31,920 Speaker 2: but it was a lot of money. Uh, you know, 912 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,719 Speaker 2: and uh and and and we just had a great 913 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,040 Speaker 2: night together. And then the next day I had to 914 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,759 Speaker 2: do individual meetings and the campus by noon was gone. 915 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:46,760 Speaker 2: It was it was ghost What goes down by New Riday? 916 00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:51,200 Speaker 1: What was life like in small town Tennessee during COVID? 917 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,879 Speaker 2: Uh? Well, Tennessee was always trying to be open before 918 00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:01,120 Speaker 2: everybody else, so you know, there was you know, but 919 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,279 Speaker 2: it wasn't you know, it was a weird time like 920 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,080 Speaker 2: there was there was you know, My wife and I 921 00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,720 Speaker 2: would go and we would walk the campus. The campus 922 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,520 Speaker 2: is beautiful, Lincolnore's campus one of the most scenic campuses 923 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,960 Speaker 2: in the country. There's all these rolling hills and it's 924 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,120 Speaker 2: just an amazing place. We'd go on these four mile 925 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:23,040 Speaker 2: walks every day. She and I. You know, everything was 926 00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,840 Speaker 2: was shut down, so we just you know, going and 927 00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,680 Speaker 2: and and grocery shopping. But it was almost like you 928 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:34,120 Speaker 2: go from this pressure cooker and then it was just like, 929 00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:38,799 Speaker 2: I mean, it was just incredible and you just you know, 930 00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:40,920 Speaker 2: you're really not going to work you're staying at home. 931 00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,400 Speaker 2: I got to zoom with some really good people. I mean, 932 00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,520 Speaker 2: you were Its almost like a it was like a 933 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,600 Speaker 2: sabbatical in the middle of a Yeah, I mean it's 934 00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:51,760 Speaker 2: almost surreal even to talk about. It was like a sabbatic. 935 00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,239 Speaker 1: No, it's it's it's interesting because obviously, you know, like, look, 936 00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,080 Speaker 1: you guys had a chance to win a national championship, 937 00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:02,040 Speaker 1: and there's so many things. I mean, Santague State that 938 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:07,799 Speaker 1: they had an incredible team. My brother, my brothers, well 939 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,160 Speaker 1: it used to was a Grand Grand Canne Last three 940 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,640 Speaker 1: and he was a Dreary college and they were they 941 00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:15,480 Speaker 1: were the best D two team, the women's team. Right, 942 00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,680 Speaker 1: they didn't get a chance. Molly didn't get a chance 943 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,400 Speaker 1: to compete. But like you got a chance to be 944 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:27,839 Speaker 1: a dad, husband, you had to be home, Like there 945 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,440 Speaker 1: was a there was I kind of wish there was 946 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:32,640 Speaker 1: like two weeks every year we could do that. I 947 00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:33,560 Speaker 1: just like just two weeks. 948 00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:34,040 Speaker 3: I do too. 949 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,520 Speaker 2: It It was I agree, because I don't know, you're 950 00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 2: the same way, Like our lives are so regimented. You know, 951 00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,319 Speaker 2: we're up early, we're going here, we got this. There's 952 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:43,320 Speaker 2: just a to do list. You're knocking it out. You 953 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 2: got all these things, irons in the fire, and then 954 00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 2: it was like nothing, and it was like, oh my god, 955 00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:54,160 Speaker 2: like this is actually like it was. I mean it was. 956 00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,840 Speaker 2: It was a terrible, terrible time. But in terms of 957 00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:02,160 Speaker 2: like re energize, we're getting to really get down to 958 00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,680 Speaker 2: what's important, like the amount of family time you spend, 959 00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:06,240 Speaker 2: the amount of time you spend with your wife getting 960 00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 2: up in the day and be like, hey, what do 961 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,120 Speaker 2: you want. We're going to go for a walk. You know, 962 00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,560 Speaker 2: we're gonna have some meals together. You know who's going 963 00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:16,200 Speaker 2: to cook what? You know? Watch some TV. I remember 964 00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:19,160 Speaker 2: when The Last Dance came out that was. 965 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:21,839 Speaker 1: Literally everybody watched. It was like, oh my god, give 966 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,239 Speaker 1: me somebody give me work. I gotta wait till next week. 967 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,080 Speaker 1: You know what reminded me of so this is uh 968 00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,600 Speaker 1: when I the Last Dance thing reminded me when I 969 00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:36,040 Speaker 1: was in Russia playing my wife at the time and 970 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:40,840 Speaker 1: I we we would get a cassette tape with Survivor. 971 00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,719 Speaker 1: Remember when Survivor first came out this two thousand and 972 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,719 Speaker 1: we would try and only watch it, like watch one 973 00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:50,719 Speaker 1: a week. We try like we're only going to watch 974 00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:52,840 Speaker 1: one a week. This just and I remember just like, 975 00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:54,880 Speaker 1: oh man, you sure we don't want to watch the 976 00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:55,319 Speaker 1: second one? 977 00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:56,320 Speaker 2: Sure? 978 00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:58,880 Speaker 1: Like now Last Dance, you didn't have a chance to 979 00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,319 Speaker 1: watch the second one. But still it was the same 980 00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:03,200 Speaker 1: idea of just give me. Oh I love it and 981 00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:05,480 Speaker 1: taste so good. I just need more, give. 982 00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,080 Speaker 2: Me more games more, because you had nothing. You had 983 00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:10,640 Speaker 2: nothing new, I mean, nobody was. It was like it 984 00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:14,080 Speaker 2: was like every Best Game seven. Like you literally built 985 00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,400 Speaker 2: your day around Last Dance coming on, like, oh what 986 00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,880 Speaker 2: are we gonna you know, let's finish dinner here, do this, 987 00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:20,960 Speaker 2: we can be at the TV. And it was. It 988 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,319 Speaker 2: was incredible. It was incredible, And like I said, it 989 00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,720 Speaker 2: seems like a just a whole you know, it seems 990 00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:28,600 Speaker 2: like it was so long ago, but it really you know, 991 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,600 Speaker 2: obviously it wasn't. And uh, you know, Tennessee opened up 992 00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:35,040 Speaker 2: pretty quickly. But that was a great time, uh from 993 00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,480 Speaker 2: a standpoint of you know, being able to just reconnect 994 00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:41,319 Speaker 2: and and and really get back to like the things 995 00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,399 Speaker 2: that are most important in your life. And like you said, 996 00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:45,799 Speaker 2: it'd be cool to have a two week where hey, 997 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,799 Speaker 2: everything shuts down, there's nothing and just you lock in 998 00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,440 Speaker 2: and to it. Because it really does. It does give 999 00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:51,920 Speaker 2: you life. 1000 00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:55,000 Speaker 1: Uh what was that next year? 1001 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,120 Speaker 2: Life for it? Yeah? I one more year at Lincoln, 1002 00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:58,600 Speaker 2: So I had one more year. My last year at 1003 00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:00,000 Speaker 2: Lincoln was was twenty twenty one. 1004 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:01,520 Speaker 1: Did you guys have crowds that year? 1005 00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,759 Speaker 2: Very limited? Very limited crowds? You know, you sat like 1006 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,879 Speaker 2: spread out in the baseline. We had, you know, games canceled, 1007 00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:12,960 Speaker 2: we had, you know, it was it was like everybody, 1008 00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,400 Speaker 2: I mean, you'd be playing, you know you and it 1009 00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,239 Speaker 2: just shows how funny it is like as coaches, you know, 1010 00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,000 Speaker 2: we're scouting, we're watching all these hours of film and 1011 00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 2: going over this opponent. You'd be playing, Hey we're gonna 1012 00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:25,480 Speaker 2: play uh so and so oh wait they can't play. 1013 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:27,120 Speaker 2: All right, let's play this team. We want to play 1014 00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,919 Speaker 2: this team today. Like no scout, you know, like you're 1015 00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 2: just you're just drawing stuff out of a hat. You know, 1016 00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,040 Speaker 2: like you'd play teams that you didn't even know you 1017 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,280 Speaker 2: were playing. Team would cancel, you'd call somebody be like, hey, 1018 00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:40,399 Speaker 2: you know, do you want to play today at seven 1019 00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,880 Speaker 2: or tomorrow? Oh yeah, we'll play, you know, and and 1020 00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,239 Speaker 2: all right, let's do this. And so we we kind 1021 00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:49,319 Speaker 2: of Hodgepodge of season together. We got you know, we 1022 00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,799 Speaker 2: we had we had a couple of shutdowns, and then 1023 00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,359 Speaker 2: we had one at the you know, our campus had 1024 00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,520 Speaker 2: an outbreak towards the end of our season, and we 1025 00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:00,640 Speaker 2: got we had a you know, epidemiology is running our 1026 00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:04,879 Speaker 2: COVID team at LMU, and you know, we had exposures, 1027 00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:09,680 Speaker 2: and so he shut us down with exposures. It became 1028 00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:12,799 Speaker 2: a whole thing. You know, we wound up not being 1029 00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:15,759 Speaker 2: able to play our last two regular season games. And 1030 00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:20,560 Speaker 2: then you know, our our commissioner at the conference, who's 1031 00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:23,920 Speaker 2: you know whatever. Trying to be nice on the podcast, 1032 00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:27,040 Speaker 2: but yeah, the South Atlantic Conference commissioner is not the 1033 00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,919 Speaker 2: brightest guy in the world. They they knock us out 1034 00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:32,719 Speaker 2: of the tournament. So because they said, we you know, 1035 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:36,080 Speaker 2: our clock started whenever. And so we wind up even 1036 00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:37,840 Speaker 2: though we didn't have a positive, we had a shut 1037 00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,839 Speaker 2: down because of the exposures. They shut down like ten 1038 00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:43,880 Speaker 2: teams on our campus at the same time. So we 1039 00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:46,359 Speaker 2: wind up going into the NCAA tournament the next year. 1040 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:51,080 Speaker 2: We haven't played in twenty six days, we haven't played 1041 00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:54,319 Speaker 2: a game, and we're playing in the NCAA Tournament in 1042 00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:59,080 Speaker 2: the first round, and and so we we win, we 1043 00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:04,360 Speaker 2: win our region, go to the Elite eight, win the 1044 00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:08,320 Speaker 2: Elite eight game, and then we lose on a tip out. 1045 00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:13,120 Speaker 2: We're up to with seven seconds left, ball out of bounds, 1046 00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,600 Speaker 2: They miss, ball gets batted, and Zach Tucson, from about 1047 00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:20,560 Speaker 2: thirty feet maybe a little longer, knocks it in over 1048 00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:23,200 Speaker 2: Devin Whitfield at the buzzer to lose by one of 1049 00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:25,520 Speaker 2: the lots are playing in the National Championship game, and 1050 00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:28,600 Speaker 2: you know, all that stuff about me coming to Nastate 1051 00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:30,759 Speaker 2: had come out already, and it was just a that 1052 00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:34,040 Speaker 2: was just a devastating you know that that was because 1053 00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,160 Speaker 2: of the circumstances, was worse the National Championship loss or 1054 00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,640 Speaker 2: any other loss, just you know, because everybody knew I 1055 00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:41,640 Speaker 2: was leading. It was just such a devastating way for 1056 00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:43,799 Speaker 2: it to And it would have been poetic to having 1057 00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,879 Speaker 2: the National Championship because at that point, you know, it's 1058 00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:48,640 Speaker 2: over one way or the other. It's the last game 1059 00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:51,560 Speaker 2: on the deal, and you know, and that group to 1060 00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:55,040 Speaker 2: get within a millisecond of the National Championship just shows 1061 00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:57,080 Speaker 2: you know, I mean to come off with twenties five 1062 00:54:57,080 --> 00:55:00,000 Speaker 2: to twenty six. Day break and play in the NCAA tournament. 1063 00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,000 Speaker 2: You're playing for your life. Like it was incredible. It doesn't, 1064 00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:05,719 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it just stiff. You would never 1065 00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:06,080 Speaker 2: think of. 1066 00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:10,640 Speaker 1: Okay, So how did the Indiana State job come to be? 1067 00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:16,600 Speaker 2: So the the week that we were supposed to be 1068 00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:20,680 Speaker 2: in the conference tournament, we weren't. Uh So we were 1069 00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:23,560 Speaker 2: practicing and you know, that's all we can do. And 1070 00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:27,920 Speaker 2: I get a I got an email from a search 1071 00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,560 Speaker 2: firm guy just you know, hey, you know there's a 1072 00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,200 Speaker 2: Missouri value school that's you know, probably going to open. 1073 00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:36,040 Speaker 2: Would you be interested? And you know, I sent it 1074 00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:37,759 Speaker 2: to my agent. I didn't know, you know, at what 1075 00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:39,680 Speaker 2: school it was or anything, and so I just pour 1076 00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:42,839 Speaker 2: it on and uh the hem wound up coming back 1077 00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:44,920 Speaker 2: and saying that, you know, it was Indiana State. And 1078 00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:47,560 Speaker 2: I talked to the search firm guy, but they weren't 1079 00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:49,160 Speaker 2: at the time one hundred percent sure what was going 1080 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,840 Speaker 2: to happen. So we just had a conversation and you know, 1081 00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:54,480 Speaker 2: kind of he spent an hour just trying to get 1082 00:55:54,520 --> 00:56:00,400 Speaker 2: to know me and whatever. Well, Indiana State uh, playing 1083 00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:04,799 Speaker 2: in their conference tournament. They lost on a Saturday, and 1084 00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:10,759 Speaker 2: I interviewed with them on Sunday that next day after 1085 00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:15,080 Speaker 2: when they had decided to make the change. And then 1086 00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:19,880 Speaker 2: I wound up, you know, on that Tuesday, you know, 1087 00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:24,800 Speaker 2: going in and signing an MoU up in Lexington, Kentucky, 1088 00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,560 Speaker 2: and I met them, you know there. It was just 1089 00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:30,680 Speaker 2: but you know, it's funny. I got I got about 1090 00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:32,759 Speaker 2: ten minutes from the hotel to go meet with them 1091 00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:35,920 Speaker 2: to sign the contract, and you know, I was driving 1092 00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:37,480 Speaker 2: up there with my wife and I looked at her 1093 00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:38,839 Speaker 2: and I was like, I was like, I don't want 1094 00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:40,719 Speaker 2: to do this. I don't want to go to dannea state. 1095 00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,799 Speaker 2: And she was like, all right, let's go home. So 1096 00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:47,560 Speaker 2: we literally exited off the interstate and started driving back 1097 00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:51,839 Speaker 2: to Harrigan. And I called my old a d who 1098 00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,080 Speaker 2: was with me at LMU, who wasn't there at the time. 1099 00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:55,520 Speaker 2: And I was. 1100 00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:58,840 Speaker 1: Like, the one who was gardening or the next one. 1101 00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,680 Speaker 2: No, the gardening one retired. He's a good dude as well, 1102 00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:06,320 Speaker 2: but he retired after it was the guy who replaced 1103 00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:09,600 Speaker 2: the gardening guy. And so and so I'm driving back 1104 00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:12,839 Speaker 2: and I call Matt Green. I'm like, I said, Matt, 1105 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:14,799 Speaker 2: I said, I'm you know, I'm turning the job down 1106 00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:17,920 Speaker 2: I'm driving home, you know, when I just was like, 1107 00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:20,520 Speaker 2: it doesn't feel right, you know, I think I'm going 1108 00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:22,800 Speaker 2: to stay at LMU. And he taught to me for 1109 00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,280 Speaker 2: about fifteen or twenty minutes as I was driving home 1110 00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,040 Speaker 2: about why it was the right thing for me to do. 1111 00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:30,000 Speaker 2: If he had said, hey, no, I agree you should, 1112 00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:33,840 Speaker 2: but he did it, and and so I spent about 1113 00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,560 Speaker 2: twenty minutes, fifteen twenty minutes talking to him, and then 1114 00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:38,240 Speaker 2: he convinced me to take it. So then I had 1115 00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:42,160 Speaker 2: to turn back around and I sent Indiana State a 1116 00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:45,840 Speaker 2: texta just saying, hey, I'm running late. And so I 1117 00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:48,600 Speaker 2: got there a little a little later. And you know, 1118 00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:50,200 Speaker 2: it was a combination of things. At the end of 1119 00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:53,360 Speaker 2: the day, you know, LMU, I had a new president, 1120 00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:59,200 Speaker 2: new ad, and the president and I, you know, weren't great. 1121 00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:03,200 Speaker 2: I thought the you know, the commissioner of the league 1122 00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,280 Speaker 2: was you know, like I said, you know, that whole 1123 00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:07,000 Speaker 2: thing with the COVID dealer had rubbed me the wrong way. 1124 00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,240 Speaker 2: The president wasn't he wasn't a bad guy at all. 1125 00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:14,120 Speaker 2: He was not athletic guy. And we had a new 1126 00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:16,560 Speaker 2: a D. So it just felt like if I was 1127 00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:18,320 Speaker 2: going to do something it was the right time to 1128 00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,240 Speaker 2: do it. And then the chance to be in the 1129 00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:22,720 Speaker 2: Missouri Valley, to me from D two was a jump 1130 00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:24,160 Speaker 2: that a lot of people don't get to make. You know, 1131 00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:26,560 Speaker 2: the normal jump is, you know, you go D two 1132 00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:28,960 Speaker 2: to a low major, low major, you do well, you 1133 00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,040 Speaker 2: go to the Missouri Valley and then you know, and 1134 00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:35,040 Speaker 2: so I was going to skip some steps. And I 1135 00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:37,240 Speaker 2: knew how good a league the Valley was in terms 1136 00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:40,200 Speaker 2: of the competition, the coaches, like at the time, I mean, 1137 00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:42,280 Speaker 2: you know, you had Porter Mojor, you had Ben Jacobson, 1138 00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:44,680 Speaker 2: Darren de Breeze, Bryant World. I mean, I knew all 1139 00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:46,800 Speaker 2: those coaches and how good they were, and it was like, 1140 00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:49,960 Speaker 2: man like how you know, like that would be just 1141 00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:52,880 Speaker 2: an amazing challenge and a place that in Indiana State 1142 00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:54,800 Speaker 2: a lot like LMU, people said it was impossible to 1143 00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:56,120 Speaker 2: win at you know, when I talked to people said, oh, 1144 00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:58,200 Speaker 2: you know, you know, you can't win at a high 1145 00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:01,080 Speaker 2: level there. You know, it's not you know, and and 1146 00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:02,800 Speaker 2: you know, so that was kind of the deal. But 1147 00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:05,760 Speaker 2: I knew that you know, you know, Greg and his 1148 00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:08,160 Speaker 2: staff that you know, I was replacing it had done 1149 00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,880 Speaker 2: a good job and they'd certainly want something, and so 1150 00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:13,440 Speaker 2: I didn't. I didn't look at it as bleak as 1151 00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:15,560 Speaker 2: other people did. But that was kind of the the 1152 00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,400 Speaker 2: caveat of coming was the opportunity to compete against you know, 1153 00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,160 Speaker 2: these coaches in an unbelievable league and one of the 1154 00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:24,920 Speaker 2: best mid major leagues in the country, you know, bypass 1155 00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:28,680 Speaker 2: some steps. Really challenged myself and then Charrard, who was 1156 00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:31,120 Speaker 2: my athletic director here. You know, the thing I told 1157 00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:32,520 Speaker 2: us is that it had to be a work environment 1158 00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:34,160 Speaker 2: like the one I was in, where I was empowered 1159 00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:37,480 Speaker 2: and support every single day. And he, you know, was 1160 00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:39,680 Speaker 2: he said that absolutely, you know, we'll give you the 1161 00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:41,320 Speaker 2: freedom to do it the way you want to do it. 1162 00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,000 Speaker 2: We won't micromanage and and you know it'll it'll work 1163 00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:46,520 Speaker 2: or it won't, but but you don't have to worry 1164 00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:49,080 Speaker 2: about that. And so once we kind of came on 1165 00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:51,160 Speaker 2: all those terms, it just seemed like the right well 1166 00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:54,880 Speaker 2: even though you know, it wasn't really a bump paywise, 1167 00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:57,000 Speaker 2: it was a small bump, but not you know, not. 1168 00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,640 Speaker 1: Really that lifetime deal wasn't about money. 1169 00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:02,520 Speaker 2: It was no, it's not about money. It was about 1170 01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:06,240 Speaker 2: the chance to pursue growth and challenge myself and see 1171 01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:08,960 Speaker 2: if I could do it at this level. Basically, I 1172 01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:12,040 Speaker 2: was leaving something I was incredibly comfortable. I have a 1173 01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:14,720 Speaker 2: natural aversion to change, Like that's just how I'm wired. 1174 01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:17,560 Speaker 2: I get very comfortable, I like, you know, And I 1175 01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:20,800 Speaker 2: had poured myself into that place. We had an amazing culture, 1176 01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:25,240 Speaker 2: a championship DNA. You know, we had just come up 1177 01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:28,520 Speaker 2: short of the national championship on a buzzer beater. We 1178 01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:30,600 Speaker 2: had great teams coming in the pipe. I mean since 1179 01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:34,720 Speaker 2: I've been gone the previous two years. My assistant as 1180 01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:36,800 Speaker 2: the head coach, I think he was fifty eight and 1181 01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:38,760 Speaker 2: ten his first two years and won back to back 1182 01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:41,280 Speaker 2: regular season championships. And they're in position to do it 1183 01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:43,080 Speaker 2: again this year for a third shit year with a 1184 01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:45,760 Speaker 2: lot of guys. And that's with most of our better 1185 01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,920 Speaker 2: players come in Indiana State, So you know, that's with 1186 01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:51,040 Speaker 2: the guys who were scout team guys when I was there. 1187 01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:54,080 Speaker 2: So it was instead of be successful, it was just 1188 01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:58,000 Speaker 2: the challenge and the opportunity that was presented here to 1189 01:00:58,040 --> 01:00:58,640 Speaker 2: do it at this length. 1190 01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:03,840 Speaker 1: What is that like to bring your guys up a level? 1191 01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:08,800 Speaker 1: But also there's some guys that you can't bring up 1192 01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:11,640 Speaker 1: a level. What's that process? 1193 01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:15,680 Speaker 2: Oh it's hard. I mean, it's tough. You you want 1194 01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:19,040 Speaker 2: to you know, I probably, in hindsight, you know, like 1195 01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:23,960 Speaker 2: I probably undervalued the cultural piece I could have maybe, 1196 01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:26,320 Speaker 2: you know, probably could have probably brought a couple more 1197 01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:28,880 Speaker 2: with me. But I also didn't want to leave LMU depleted. 1198 01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:31,720 Speaker 2: Ether it was kind of a feel, you know, I didn't. 1199 01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:34,040 Speaker 2: I love that place. I love it, Lincoln Memorial. We 1200 01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:36,320 Speaker 2: had guys that I mean, my hope originally was they 1201 01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:37,640 Speaker 2: were all going to come back, but a couple of 1202 01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:41,880 Speaker 2: guys were like, we're transferring to Division one now. If 1203 01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:44,040 Speaker 2: you don't want us, we'll go somewhere else. But you know, 1204 01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:46,400 Speaker 2: so I was like, all right, I got a you know, 1205 01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:48,440 Speaker 2: two of our All league players. Last year we won 1206 01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:50,960 Speaker 2: twenty three games where you know, LM you guys, can 1207 01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:52,840 Speaker 2: I see a McCauley and Cam Henry are two All 1208 01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:56,320 Speaker 2: Conference players were LM you guys in the Missouri Valley. 1209 01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:59,720 Speaker 2: So you know, it was it was it was tough 1210 01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:03,080 Speaker 2: com stations with players because more people wanted to come 1211 01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:06,000 Speaker 2: than we could take. Like I said, hindsight, being twenty twenty, 1212 01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:08,440 Speaker 2: I probably would have taken more because I think the 1213 01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:11,400 Speaker 2: hardest part when you take a new job is you 1214 01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:14,120 Speaker 2: know that you can't transpose culture and that you know 1215 01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:16,920 Speaker 2: you have to start from scratch. And the more guys 1216 01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:19,360 Speaker 2: you have that understand you and understand what winning looks 1217 01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:23,680 Speaker 2: like and understand the way you operate, the better because 1218 01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:27,360 Speaker 2: you know that that year was funky. And recruiting anyway, 1219 01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:30,040 Speaker 2: if you remember, like when I got the job, I 1220 01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:33,840 Speaker 2: couldn't go recruit zoom and campus. Yeah, nobody come to campus. 1221 01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:36,640 Speaker 2: It was remote. Everything was we were doing FaceTime, driving 1222 01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:41,440 Speaker 2: in golf carts of I mean, zooms and FaceTime. That's 1223 01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:44,120 Speaker 2: how we recruited. And so most of the people that 1224 01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:46,440 Speaker 2: I recruited because I took over a team in April 1225 01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:49,320 Speaker 2: that had two players on the roster. So most of 1226 01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:52,080 Speaker 2: the people that I recruited I never met until they 1227 01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:55,000 Speaker 2: came to summer school. I had never even had an 1228 01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:57,160 Speaker 2: in person cut or seen them play live, like I 1229 01:02:57,200 --> 01:02:59,160 Speaker 2: just saw everything was on the film. So it was 1230 01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:06,000 Speaker 2: the most awkward thing. And you know, in terms of uh, yeah, 1231 01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:07,600 Speaker 2: I mean just like you don't you know, the whole 1232 01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:12,520 Speaker 2: recruiting process that I value was completely opposite of what 1233 01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:14,760 Speaker 2: I'm used to, and so these people there was there 1234 01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:17,080 Speaker 2: was a number, more than a handful. Was first time 1235 01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:19,600 Speaker 2: meeting them in person was coming to summer school and 1236 01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:21,960 Speaker 2: the first time seeing them play was our first practice. 1237 01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:25,280 Speaker 1: When did you know this group was going to be different, 1238 01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:26,800 Speaker 1: this group is going to be special? 1239 01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:33,600 Speaker 2: Felt it in the summer, just the vibe you can get. 1240 01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:37,680 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, when you're recruiting, you know you 1241 01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:39,840 Speaker 2: have hopes for what your team could be, how the 1242 01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:43,880 Speaker 2: pieces will fit. But I would say there's two types 1243 01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:46,000 Speaker 2: of forecasters, right, those that don't know and those that 1244 01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:48,480 Speaker 2: don't know. They don't know, so you hope you have 1245 01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:51,880 Speaker 2: an opinion, but you're not, you know, you know, and 1246 01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:56,360 Speaker 2: then watching them play the portal is the harder one 1247 01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:59,120 Speaker 2: because you you know, you feel like you can get 1248 01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:01,520 Speaker 2: the tangible things. But it's the cultural one that's harder 1249 01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:03,640 Speaker 2: because it's like speed dating. You know, you go from 1250 01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:05,960 Speaker 2: this process so high school guys and now you got 1251 01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:09,560 Speaker 2: this short runway with the transfers to figure out, you know, 1252 01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:11,640 Speaker 2: does it fit. But you know, like I said, the 1253 01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:14,479 Speaker 2: intangibl piece is the harder part. But when they got 1254 01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:17,200 Speaker 2: here in the summer, I felt like we knocked it 1255 01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:21,080 Speaker 2: out the Park with the transfers in terms of okay, yeah, 1256 01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:25,280 Speaker 2: they're good, but they also fit us culturally. We got 1257 01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:28,600 Speaker 2: that part right, and we knew it was a weird 1258 01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:30,960 Speaker 2: time because we lost eighty three percent of our scoring 1259 01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,160 Speaker 2: from last year. We only had four scholarship guys back 1260 01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:37,200 Speaker 2: on the whole team because we had six we had 1261 01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:39,360 Speaker 2: six or I guess five scholarship gos back. We had 1262 01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:42,720 Speaker 2: six seniors that were true COVID seniors that had exhausted 1263 01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:45,520 Speaker 2: the COVID year, and then we had two guys that 1264 01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:48,520 Speaker 2: didn't play much who transfer. So we had eight new 1265 01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:52,680 Speaker 2: scholarship players for high school, four transfers, and it was like, 1266 01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:55,480 Speaker 2: you know, we had our three leading scorers all graduated, 1267 01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:58,240 Speaker 2: you know, Cavasier and Cooper Nice and cam Henry so 1268 01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:01,560 Speaker 2: and five our top eight. So it was like but 1269 01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:04,960 Speaker 2: you could tell early on, you know, Isaiah Swope and 1270 01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:08,480 Speaker 2: Ryan Conwell and and those guys fit and and then 1271 01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:11,160 Speaker 2: the guys who were returning, the Robbie Abulo's, that Julian Larry, 1272 01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:13,960 Speaker 2: the Jason Kents, you know, their growth and the system 1273 01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:17,520 Speaker 2: was going to be significant. And you know, and and 1274 01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:19,040 Speaker 2: so I could see in the summer that if we 1275 01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:22,080 Speaker 2: could stay healthy. Uh, the guys liked each other. We 1276 01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:24,880 Speaker 2: got the culture piece right. Uh, there was good chemistry. 1277 01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:28,160 Speaker 2: The pieces fit together on the court well. They amplified 1278 01:05:28,160 --> 01:05:31,080 Speaker 2: each other versus got in each other's way, which was nice. 1279 01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:33,080 Speaker 2: And we had talent, but it was talent the compent 1280 01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:33,440 Speaker 2: each other. 1281 01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:36,240 Speaker 1: How do you build that relationship piece when you have 1282 01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:37,600 Speaker 1: guys coming in and out of the portal. 1283 01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:43,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you have to be really committed to it. 1284 01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:47,880 Speaker 2: It's something that I think when you're you know people, 1285 01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:50,320 Speaker 2: you know, I have, you know whatever, a number of 1286 01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:52,760 Speaker 2: assistants that are head coaches now at the Division two level, 1287 01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:55,080 Speaker 2: and you know, we'd always talk about, you know, in 1288 01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:58,040 Speaker 2: the transition, what are the biggest things you know and 1289 01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:00,880 Speaker 2: and and being a head coach? And I would always 1290 01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:03,760 Speaker 2: tell them number one. And if you get number one wrong, 1291 01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:07,200 Speaker 2: the rest will be irrelevant. But is evaluation right? You 1292 01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:09,080 Speaker 2: got to be able to evaluate talent. If you recruit 1293 01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:12,600 Speaker 2: bad players, everything else is irrelevant. You've got to get 1294 01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:16,960 Speaker 2: the right talent and the right type of people. And 1295 01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:20,680 Speaker 2: then the second piece to me is you've got to 1296 01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:23,160 Speaker 2: be able to build relationships with guys. And it's so 1297 01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:27,000 Speaker 2: much a coaching well, beyond x's and o's, is those 1298 01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:31,520 Speaker 2: one on one conversations, those group conversations commanding a room. 1299 01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:35,080 Speaker 2: You know, guys, psyche, the mentality your team like that 1300 01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:38,960 Speaker 2: to me is so much more important than the x'es 1301 01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:42,320 Speaker 2: and o's, you know, in terms of being successful as 1302 01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:45,760 Speaker 2: a head coach, is your ability to have relationships with 1303 01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:49,800 Speaker 2: guys that can withstand the burden the truth right that 1304 01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:53,240 Speaker 2: you can be honest with people and it doesn't you know, 1305 01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:56,120 Speaker 2: they don't get offended or insulted because they know that 1306 01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:59,200 Speaker 2: that there's a genuine relationship there. And so you just 1307 01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:01,400 Speaker 2: got to be really intentional about it. And you've got 1308 01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:04,200 Speaker 2: to be in recruiting really intentional about hey, look, this 1309 01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:06,000 Speaker 2: is what we're about. And if you want this, this 1310 01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:08,720 Speaker 2: is not your place. Like hey, in our system, you know, 1311 01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:10,320 Speaker 2: the five is the hub. If you want the ball 1312 01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:11,720 Speaker 2: in your hands all the time, probably not going to 1313 01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:13,560 Speaker 2: be what you want. You know, we're never going to 1314 01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:16,840 Speaker 2: pay a guy in an nil more than our returning 1315 01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:18,920 Speaker 2: our better returning players. So if you want that, you know, 1316 01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:20,880 Speaker 2: I mean there are certain things that are you know 1317 01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:23,320 Speaker 2: through lines that that man, you know, it's not going 1318 01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:26,240 Speaker 2: to be. You know this, if you want to come here. 1319 01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:29,760 Speaker 2: But I think you have that transparency and then you 1320 01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:31,800 Speaker 2: have the intent day to day of like, all right, 1321 01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:32,760 Speaker 2: this is who we're going to be. 1322 01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:34,840 Speaker 1: So that's your really you know, you're not gonna pay 1323 01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:37,040 Speaker 1: anybody more than a return. 1324 01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:42,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. If if if we have a returner that like 1325 01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:47,160 Speaker 2: our better returners, to me, that's the best the ability 1326 01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:51,080 Speaker 2: to bring guys back. That corporate knowledge is far greater 1327 01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:54,880 Speaker 2: than going out and getting a new guy. Now, if 1328 01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:57,200 Speaker 2: we got a guy like Isaiah Swope for Ryan conwell, 1329 01:07:57,320 --> 01:07:59,480 Speaker 2: like we knew, you know, our market was going to 1330 01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:02,320 Speaker 2: be set by a and we weren't going to pay 1331 01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:06,240 Speaker 2: in an nil somebody incoming more than we're going to 1332 01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:07,479 Speaker 2: pay our best returning player. 1333 01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:09,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll give you. I'll give you a stat that 1334 01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:11,840 Speaker 1: that will help you in the future. In the NFL. 1335 01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:16,519 Speaker 1: The NFL, the hit rate on free agents in the NFL, 1336 01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:18,600 Speaker 1: where they have all this tape and they have you know, 1337 01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:21,559 Speaker 1: they have your college shape whatever, is like thirty three percent, 1338 01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:27,360 Speaker 1: whereas in the draft in the first round it's actually 1339 01:08:27,400 --> 01:08:30,639 Speaker 1: in the between fifty five and sixty percent in terms 1340 01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:31,360 Speaker 1: of hit rate. 1341 01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:33,080 Speaker 2: I think, right, a great point. 1342 01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:36,599 Speaker 1: So it's it's you know, right, It's like what you said, 1343 01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:41,760 Speaker 1: evaluate and then uh and then you know, build on 1344 01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:44,679 Speaker 1: what you have, but build on builthough I have because 1345 01:08:44,720 --> 01:08:45,680 Speaker 1: the grass. 1346 01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:49,240 Speaker 2: Is I agree. Well, that's the thing. People. Look, if 1347 01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:52,000 Speaker 2: you're if you're selling nil to people, you ask people 1348 01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:54,880 Speaker 2: to donate nil. It's a handle lot easier to say, look, 1349 01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:56,720 Speaker 2: you saw this guy, you know how good he is. 1350 01:08:57,439 --> 01:08:59,600 Speaker 2: This is what it's going to cost. You know, we 1351 01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:01,880 Speaker 2: think to retain and that's kind of the way it is. Now. 1352 01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:04,200 Speaker 2: You've got to build your collective. You know, everybody else 1353 01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:05,360 Speaker 2: know what's it going to you know, how do we 1354 01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:09,000 Speaker 2: keep the team together? And but I think you know, 1355 01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:12,519 Speaker 2: guys will stay if there's a relationship, if they feel 1356 01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:15,040 Speaker 2: like the system you know you're there. They're getting to 1357 01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:16,760 Speaker 2: do what they do and do what they do best 1358 01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:19,280 Speaker 2: all the time. But you're right, I mean, the the 1359 01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:22,320 Speaker 2: free agent piece is so overvalued of going out and 1360 01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:24,479 Speaker 2: you know, getting this guy, getting this guy, getting this guy, 1361 01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:27,080 Speaker 2: and thinking that all your problems are going to be 1362 01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:31,920 Speaker 2: solved in the portal. Because everybody says this, they say, well, 1363 01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:35,479 Speaker 2: just get old and stales and I get that. To me, 1364 01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:40,280 Speaker 2: where people miss the boat is what about getting old together? Yes, 1365 01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:44,439 Speaker 2: what about shared experiences? What about you know, what about 1366 01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:47,120 Speaker 2: those things when you go through things together with guys 1367 01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:49,640 Speaker 2: that give you, like your team to Oklahoma State, like 1368 01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:52,200 Speaker 2: your shared experiences over many years. 1369 01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:53,960 Speaker 1: I'll give you. I'll give you an example. Okay, so 1370 01:09:54,040 --> 01:09:58,240 Speaker 1: one we went through that loss to you. Right fast 1371 01:09:58,280 --> 01:10:00,759 Speaker 1: forward a year and a half later, we're in NCAA tournament. 1372 01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:04,040 Speaker 1: We're in the sweet sixteen. We're playing Seaton Hall, and 1373 01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:06,439 Speaker 1: we had a set called cyclone we'd run in our 1374 01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:10,240 Speaker 1: first two years. We never practiced it, didn't put it 1375 01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:13,240 Speaker 1: in at all. And the way they were guarding our 1376 01:10:13,240 --> 01:10:17,680 Speaker 1: ball screen ball screens were playing against Tommy Amaker and 1377 01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:21,519 Speaker 1: Seaton Hall in Syracuse, and I turned. I turned to 1378 01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:23,759 Speaker 1: Brian mount Naught. He was now a coach at Wasaw 1379 01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:26,479 Speaker 1: High School and outside of Tulsa, and I was like, hey, 1380 01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:28,439 Speaker 1: we should run cyclone, Like all right, let's do it. 1381 01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:30,320 Speaker 1: So we just called it and then we come over 1382 01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:34,720 Speaker 1: to the bench and Sean Sutton started again like office like, y' 1383 01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:39,640 Speaker 1: all run cyclone, Like yeah, okay, just like we all 1384 01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:41,920 Speaker 1: knew it all worked and we'd all kind of been 1385 01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:43,760 Speaker 1: through it. Like but by the way, that's also that's 1386 01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:47,960 Speaker 1: the whole college experience, which where I do think we're 1387 01:10:48,439 --> 01:10:50,960 Speaker 1: we're diminishing all right, last thing, because I know you're busy. 1388 01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:55,240 Speaker 1: You gotta go. You guys had been zooming along, You 1389 01:10:55,320 --> 01:11:00,840 Speaker 1: get ranked, and then you lose. What's the it's challenged 1390 01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:05,599 Speaker 1: like from like you said, yes, you've been building towards this, 1391 01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:09,559 Speaker 1: but this is a new team. And whatever your own 1392 01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:13,720 Speaker 1: internal thoughts were on how good they could be, you 1393 01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:18,000 Speaker 1: kind of got everybody's attention nationally. But now you lose, 1394 01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:20,960 Speaker 1: so all that other work you had done gets called 1395 01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:23,200 Speaker 1: into question. What's it like now to try and get 1396 01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:23,840 Speaker 1: him back on Trent? 1397 01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:27,599 Speaker 2: Well, it goes back to that that number one thing 1398 01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:32,240 Speaker 2: of you know, relationships and psyche. I think when something 1399 01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:36,080 Speaker 2: like this happens, losing losing happens, right. I mean, you're 1400 01:11:36,120 --> 01:11:38,639 Speaker 2: in a highly competitive deal. Sometimes you wins down to lose. 1401 01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:42,760 Speaker 2: Losing the way we did shouldn't happen in terms of 1402 01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:46,479 Speaker 2: not being ready to compete, not playing together, right, And 1403 01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:50,800 Speaker 2: I told the guys this, look when you hit adversity, 1404 01:11:51,560 --> 01:11:55,280 Speaker 2: uh and and it's one loss, but it's adversity because 1405 01:11:55,320 --> 01:11:59,519 Speaker 2: it's February fifteenth and all that it can be an 1406 01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:03,680 Speaker 2: albatro us and and and completely break you down and 1407 01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:06,120 Speaker 2: bring you down because you disconnect, you go your separate ways, 1408 01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:09,840 Speaker 2: and that becomes you know the what what splinters you? 1409 01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:13,040 Speaker 2: Or you know, it can be a springboard. Right, we 1410 01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:16,360 Speaker 2: just won nine in a row. We weren't playing great 1411 01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:20,160 Speaker 2: the last few games, but we were winning because we 1412 01:12:20,160 --> 01:12:22,240 Speaker 2: were fighting and competing and we were getting honestly a 1413 01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:23,840 Speaker 2: little bit of luck in there too, right, you know 1414 01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:26,600 Speaker 2: what three spins, how the play goes in, So you 1415 01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:29,680 Speaker 2: know I told them going in, you know, uh, we're 1416 01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:33,439 Speaker 2: playing with fire and and we got burned on Tuesday night. 1417 01:12:34,880 --> 01:12:38,080 Speaker 2: It can be a springboard if it reminds us how 1418 01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:40,960 Speaker 2: much we need each other. It can be a springboard 1419 01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:44,400 Speaker 2: if it gets us back to being fully locked in 1420 01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:46,720 Speaker 2: in the tente of the details of the game. Uh. 1421 01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:49,200 Speaker 2: It can be a springboard if it eliminates any kind 1422 01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:52,759 Speaker 2: of complacency or entitlement about you know what we deserve 1423 01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:56,160 Speaker 2: what we're owed, because you know, entitled teams win nothing, 1424 01:12:57,120 --> 01:13:00,760 Speaker 2: and understanding that every single time you step you know, 1425 01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:03,080 Speaker 2: games are decided in between the four lines on the wood. 1426 01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:06,479 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what you're ranked, or what social media 1427 01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:10,240 Speaker 2: says or what somebody projects you like it's decided on 1428 01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:12,479 Speaker 2: the wood in between those four lines, and when you 1429 01:13:12,479 --> 01:13:15,400 Speaker 2: get out there, nothing can save you. Like it's in 1430 01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:17,640 Speaker 2: the arena. Out there, you're putting yourself out there, and 1431 01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:20,000 Speaker 2: you've got to be ready to meet those challenges and 1432 01:13:20,040 --> 01:13:23,680 Speaker 2: the last pieces you know, yes, the ranking and the 1433 01:13:24,160 --> 01:13:28,040 Speaker 2: exposure and the expectations. But I'll say this, like, if 1434 01:13:28,080 --> 01:13:32,439 Speaker 2: you can handle expectations and performing under pressure and those things, 1435 01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:35,120 Speaker 2: then you're not designed to be a champion anybody. You're 1436 01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:37,200 Speaker 2: not designed to be elite anything you do, because if 1437 01:13:37,280 --> 01:13:39,760 Speaker 2: you're elite, part of being elite is you got to 1438 01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:44,639 Speaker 2: deal with expectations and pressure and people you know, saying 1439 01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:49,000 Speaker 2: this judgment, all those things. If you can't handle those 1440 01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:52,439 Speaker 2: things and perform, you're not designed to be elite. And 1441 01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:57,280 Speaker 2: it's a reminder that we talk a lot about there 1442 01:13:57,280 --> 01:13:59,920 Speaker 2: are cultures. There are winning cultures and cultures where you 1443 01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:03,720 Speaker 2: can win, and I think they're very different. If you're 1444 01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:06,840 Speaker 2: in a culture, a winning culture, you're a weather vane 1445 01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:10,040 Speaker 2: for results, right, Like, you know, hey, we won, everybody's 1446 01:14:10,040 --> 01:14:13,559 Speaker 2: fired up. We lost. We're practicing at five am. You know, 1447 01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:16,840 Speaker 2: we're pissed we won. There's music playing, Guys, are all adapted, 1448 01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:20,040 Speaker 2: they're up, you lose. The whole vibe changes. Right. In 1449 01:14:20,120 --> 01:14:24,519 Speaker 2: a culture where you can win, you have processes and 1450 01:14:24,640 --> 01:14:29,360 Speaker 2: standards and principles and values in place that allow you 1451 01:14:29,439 --> 01:14:33,000 Speaker 2: to weather storms, allow you to handle success, and allow 1452 01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:36,280 Speaker 2: you to respond appropriately and move on. So we'll see 1453 01:14:36,439 --> 01:14:38,679 Speaker 2: the goal is to build a culture where you can win. 1454 01:14:39,439 --> 01:14:42,439 Speaker 2: I think we've done that here, But like I tell them, 1455 01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:45,720 Speaker 2: you know, don't don't tell me, show me. So we'll 1456 01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:48,800 Speaker 2: see tomorrow night in Carbondale and how we respond. I 1457 01:14:48,840 --> 01:14:50,719 Speaker 2: love our locker room. I love the character the guys 1458 01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:52,840 Speaker 2: in there. I have all the confidence in the world 1459 01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:56,240 Speaker 2: that you know we're going to respond the right way. 1460 01:14:56,280 --> 01:14:58,639 Speaker 2: But you know, show me, don't tell me. And let's 1461 01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:00,760 Speaker 2: see if we really have a culture where you can 1462 01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:03,400 Speaker 2: win in those processes and standards. And we kind of 1463 01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:06,120 Speaker 2: got checked and now we're able to reconnect back to 1464 01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:08,320 Speaker 2: who we are and we remember how much we need 1465 01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:12,240 Speaker 2: each other and the competitiveness. You got to earn that 1466 01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:16,240 Speaker 2: thing every night. Don't worry about rankings, pressure, expectations. Lock 1467 01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:18,519 Speaker 2: into your preparation, lock in and play into a standard 1468 01:15:18,720 --> 01:15:20,599 Speaker 2: and block all that out and lean into each other, 1469 01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:22,639 Speaker 2: leading the team pour into one another. 1470 01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:25,880 Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, I can't wait to see you guys take 1471 01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:29,080 Speaker 1: the ploor against the slokeis tomorrow night. I really appreciate 1472 01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:32,000 Speaker 1: value your time, and let's catch up again before the 1473 01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:34,320 Speaker 1: NCAA tournament and see how they responded. 1474 01:15:35,479 --> 01:15:37,240 Speaker 2: I appreciate that. Doug, thanks so much for having me on. 1475 01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:44,519 Speaker 1: All right, that's it for this edition of All Ball. 1476 01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:47,840 Speaker 1: Remember you can check out my daily radio show and 1477 01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:50,719 Speaker 1: podcast just typing Doug Gottlie. Wherever you got this podcast, 1478 01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:52,280 Speaker 1: you can check it out, download it or listen to 1479 01:15:52,320 --> 01:15:56,679 Speaker 1: the radio show. That's three to five Eastern time, twelve 1480 01:15:56,720 --> 01:16:00,360 Speaker 1: Topecific on Fox Sports Trader, the iHeartRadio app. I gotta 1481 01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:01,200 Speaker 1: leave this his Elball