Speaker 1: Can you tell me about it again? So this is
Speaker 1: basically where it all started. This is where car fixed
Speaker 1: was developed. This was the initial pilot injection. Well, now
Speaker 1: we're using it to inject seal two coming from climb Works,
Speaker 1: this direct air capture plant. So essentially this is an
Speaker 1: oversized soda stream machine making carbonated water awesome. But the
Speaker 1: important thing here is this kind of system it can
Speaker 1: work in other industries as well, not only geothermal power.
Speaker 1: It can work in you know, cement manufacturing, or or
Speaker 1: production of steel, or coal fire power plants. Wherever you
Speaker 1: have like a very highly concentrated source of CEO two,
Speaker 1: you can actually capture it in water and injected if
Speaker 1: you're lucky enough to be sitting on top of a
Speaker 1: favorable bedrock like we are. Okay, here I am outside
Speaker 1: the hellish d Geo thermal plant in Iceland, just outside recC.
Speaker 1: It's dark, it's cold. What you just heard it was
Speaker 1: the sound of our guest today, Kari Helgason, the head
Speaker 1: of research and innovation for carb Fix, who tell us
Speaker 1: about their CEO two storage technology where they'll take CEO
Speaker 1: two from any source and injected underground where it mineralizes
Speaker 1: or turns to rock under the subsurface in Iceland here
Speaker 1: fascinating topic. Really enjoyed our conversation. Stay with us as
Speaker 1: always beat up to stop, provide investment of strategy advice.
Speaker 1: You can hear the full disclaimer at the end of
Speaker 1: the show. Mark Taylor from a rock field in Iceland
Speaker 1: and you're listening to switch on to Being f podcast.
Speaker 1: Hey Coudy, so thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: This is really awesome. We're standing here at the injection
Speaker 1: site for the first car fixed project that started back
Speaker 1: in two thousand and six. How about we just start
Speaker 1: with the project itself. Can you tell us a bit
Speaker 1: about carb fix and where it kind of came from.
Speaker 1: It originally came from a scientist in the United States
Speaker 1: called Wally Broker. He came here and he was one
Speaker 1: of the guys who sort of raised awareness about climate
Speaker 1: change being a threat, like back in the seventies. He
Speaker 1: came here to Iceland talked to icelandic scientists to actually
Speaker 1: see whether this natural weathering of producing minerals in bus
Speaker 1: salts to curb climate change would be an actual, you know, viable.
Speaker 1: It started in two thousand and six the Carpet Project
Speaker 1: as an academic and industry collaboration. So really just as
Speaker 1: an idea that stemmed into a science project. Really people
Speaker 1: didn't know whether this would work or you know, if
Speaker 1: we did it, how fast it would work, because you know, naturally,
Speaker 1: and this is what happens naturally, is that you know,
Speaker 1: nature keeps a lot of carbon in rocks, CEO tourists,
Speaker 1: salt in rainwater, it seeps through the bedrock and it
Speaker 1: turns into minerals on a very long time scales. So
Speaker 1: the question is would we be able to speed this
Speaker 1: up to actually make this relevant to carbon capture and
Speaker 1: sequestration technology. That's where it started doing the academic work, modeling, simulations, etcetera.
Speaker 1: When finally we put it to the test and injected
Speaker 1: CEO two into the Icelandic basaltic bedrock, we found out
Speaker 1: that this was actually happening quite fast, and we are
Speaker 1: mineralizing all the CEO two that we injected in the
Speaker 1: matter of under two years. And this was quite a
Speaker 1: bit faster than people had expected. And this is sort
Speaker 1: of how it all got started, and then it only
Speaker 1: took a few more years for it to be implemented
Speaker 1: in the power plant we're actually sitting in right now.
Speaker 1: This is a geothermal power plant, which is green energy,
Speaker 1: but it's still amids CEO two. It accumulates right here
Speaker 1: to around forty tho tons of CEO two per year,
Speaker 1: and we are currently taking of that CEO two using
Speaker 1: the carfix technology and injecting it, and we'll be scaling
Speaker 1: that up in the next year to make this a
Speaker 1: you know, full scale carbon capture and storage decombronized plant.
Speaker 1: Let's go back though, just for a second. Was there
Speaker 1: was there an aha moment? Did you know before you
Speaker 1: started injecting c OR two under the underground here in
Speaker 1: the lab did you see that it was going to
Speaker 1: mineralize or did you know what was going to happen
Speaker 1: before you did it? Well, back then, I wasn't working
Speaker 1: for the company, so I put out I can, but
Speaker 1: I can I can speak to the p for for
Speaker 1: the people that were here. For example, at at the
Speaker 1: CEO of the Carpicks company, she hadn't run models that
Speaker 1: actually indicated that this would be quite fast. People didn't
Speaker 1: necessarily believe the models. And I don't think we should
Speaker 1: always believe models, for sure, they're just to inform. But
Speaker 1: her models we are actually quite a bit accurate. When
Speaker 1: you compared it to the experimental data that you know,
Speaker 1: after the pilot injections. I think the aha moment or
Speaker 1: the real breakthrough was that, you know, when we actually
Speaker 1: demonstrated and verified the mineral storage of CEO two being
Speaker 1: this efficient. So we had actually succeeded in accelerating nature's
Speaker 1: way of storing carbon. That's really cool. So how did
Speaker 1: the project itself materialize? You started off with the CEO
Speaker 1: two from the geothermal plant and then came along the
Speaker 1: direct air capture idea from from climb Works or how
Speaker 1: did that whole arrangement happen. We started with the power
Speaker 1: plant or decombronizing the power plant. That was what was
Speaker 1: implemented on industrial scale in twenty fourteen. Then we, you know,
Speaker 1: were introduced to these guys at climb Works, which is
Speaker 1: a Swiss company that has this direct air captured technology
Speaker 1: and they were, you know, looking for a place to
Speaker 1: test their pilot unit. They had been developing this technology
Speaker 1: in Switzerland and we in I think it was in
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen when they actually shipped their pilot unit here
Speaker 1: and so they exposed Moosted to the harsh conditions in Iceland,
Speaker 1: the weather, the corrosion, the the you know, the hydrogen
Speaker 1: sulfide and all the geothermal gases that surround us and
Speaker 1: and put it, you know, through a stress test for
Speaker 1: several years. And they actually just scaled up this year
Speaker 1: commissioning the first commercial direct air capture and storage plant.
Speaker 1: So so their pilot had been running for at least
Speaker 1: three years before they decided to scale up. But now
Speaker 1: this has become the first with the world's first commercial
Speaker 1: direct air capture and storage chain. So we take the
Speaker 1: seal two out of the atmosphere and we injected into
Speaker 1: the bedrock where it turns into stone. Okay, so I
Speaker 1: don't want to spend too much time on direct air capture,
Speaker 1: but to me, like I've been wanting somebody to tell
Speaker 1: me I'm wrong about this, that I think direct air
Speaker 1: capture is really interesting because two things. One is location, right,
Speaker 1: because in carbon capture and storage often you don't have
Speaker 1: the point source of C two emissions near the storage
Speaker 1: location or the sink for the U two, So that's
Speaker 1: a big problem. The second issue is verification, right. It's
Speaker 1: a it's the value of a ton of C O
Speaker 1: two stored or offset, and so there's going to come
Speaker 1: a point when well, we can't verify all the grass
Speaker 1: growing in the tundra to to offset the missions through
Speaker 1: forestry or something like that, or you know, forester burning
Speaker 1: for various parts of the world, and so you're gonna
Speaker 1: need to to be able to verify a ton of
Speaker 1: c U two stored. So I think, you know, direct
Speaker 1: air capture plus what car fix is doing is really cool.
Speaker 1: So am I crazy? No, You're You're absolutely right in
Speaker 1: that everything is measurable to the graham of c O two,
Speaker 1: and it's very traceable, and it's very transparent, and you
Speaker 1: you know, you know exactly what is happening, what is
Speaker 1: being captured, what is going into the ground, and you're
Speaker 1: doing this in real time. With forestry, there are big uncertainties.
Speaker 1: It takes a long time for the carbon to be sequestered,
Speaker 1: and you need a lot of land space. But you know,
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong. I mean, we do need these
Speaker 1: natural solutions as well. We do need to plant a
Speaker 1: lot of trees, and we also need these technological solutions.
Speaker 1: We need direct air capture technologies to be at the
Speaker 1: gigaton scale by mid century. I mean that is, if
Speaker 1: we are to meet our climate goals. That is what
Speaker 1: we need to do, so we need to do both
Speaker 1: hand in hand. At the same time, we also have
Speaker 1: to be comfortable with some uncertainty. You know, if we
Speaker 1: know that we are sequestering Sale two, we don't know
Speaker 1: to the Graham, but we just have to do it nevertheless.
Speaker 1: But this is also what all this research is about,
Speaker 1: you know, just getting more knowledge and understanding of our
Speaker 1: natural system in order for us to know better what
Speaker 1: we need to do and to prioritize what solutions we
Speaker 1: should fund and which once we should not. So just
Speaker 1: to make sure we got it. We talked about it
Speaker 1: briefly at the site, but let's just make sure we
Speaker 1: got it. Can you explain really how the technology works.
Speaker 1: You mentioned that you take the CEO two and you
Speaker 1: combine it with water, and then you combine it with
Speaker 1: some other chemicals I believe, and injected in the ground
Speaker 1: or no, no, we just use seal two in water.
Speaker 1: There you go. So it's just like nature, but accelerating it.
Speaker 1: We dissolve the seal two in water we injected into
Speaker 1: the bedrock, and when it enters the formation, the seal
Speaker 1: two is completely dissolved. So it's like you know, a
Speaker 1: bottle of soda. Right, you don't see any bubbles until
Speaker 1: you open it. And deep pressure as it well underground,
Speaker 1: there is pressure and it keeps the CEO two in solution,
Speaker 1: so it doesn't want to leak up, It doesn't want
Speaker 1: to go anywhere, and it actually has the tendency to
Speaker 1: sink rather than to rise because the fluid is denser
Speaker 1: than the surrounding water. So we kill the buoyancy that way.
Speaker 1: And what happens when the acidic fluid, because this is
Speaker 1: essentially carbonic acid, just like you know sparkling water, what
Speaker 1: happens is that it starts attacking the rock and dissolving
Speaker 1: the rock because it's acidic, and the icelandic bad drop
Speaker 1: or basalts in particular, are very rich in metals such
Speaker 1: as calcium, magnesium, and iron, and it releases these metals
Speaker 1: into the fluid and then the chemistry starts happening, that
Speaker 1: the mineral starts forming, and we start forming magnesium carbonates,
Speaker 1: calcium carbonates, and iron carbonates. So this is what we
Speaker 1: mean when we say we turn CEO two into stone,
Speaker 1: we are turning them into solid carbonate minerals. And once
Speaker 1: we have verified that these minerals do form then we
Speaker 1: can simply walk away and we don't need to monitor
Speaker 1: anything else in the reservoir. That's really cool. Years ago,
Speaker 1: I was a carbon capture analyst, and the big concern
Speaker 1: everybody had was that once you injected the CEO two,
Speaker 1: you had to monitor it for a hundred years to
Speaker 1: make sure that the CEO two stayed under ground. It
Speaker 1: seems like you don't have that issue. We do not
Speaker 1: have that issue because we kill the buoyancy as a
Speaker 1: set by dissolving in the water, and then when it's solid,
Speaker 1: we don't have to do anything, So you just have
Speaker 1: to verify that it happens. But we are also in
Speaker 1: a different position as the conventional c s c S
Speaker 1: or or corporon capture and storage projects in which they
Speaker 1: are injecting actually supercritical seal too very very deep into
Speaker 1: depleted oil or gas reservoirs. These are typically not located,
Speaker 1: these geologies are typically not located where basalts and reactive
Speaker 1: rocks like we are using are located. So actually we
Speaker 1: think of it as car fix is actually just unlocking
Speaker 1: a lot of areas in the world where carbon capture
Speaker 1: storage hasn't even been considered. We've had instances where we're
Speaker 1: talking to emitters and they just simply don't know that
Speaker 1: they're sitting on top of a very favorable bedrock for
Speaker 1: you know, storing CEO two. So we're just trying to
Speaker 1: get the word out there, and we have like an
Speaker 1: mineral storage atlas on our website where people can actually
Speaker 1: just go and and look where are these favorable regions.
Speaker 1: We'll give us a rundown likewise, so we know Iceland
Speaker 1: you mentioned all the world's emissions could be or in Iceland,
Speaker 1: but where else for example India, Japan, West Coast, United States,
Speaker 1: and a lot of the sea floor as well that's
Speaker 1: mostly bussolved bus salts and and these reactive rock formations
Speaker 1: are found in every continent. They cover around five percent
Speaker 1: of all the landmass on Earth, so it's the most
Speaker 1: common rock type on Earth, and it's found in many,
Speaker 1: many countries. The list goes on. But the important thing
Speaker 1: is also it's not only that it's widespread, it's also
Speaker 1: that this also works in industries outside the geothermal and
Speaker 1: direct air capture. So we could hook up to cement manufacturing,
Speaker 1: steel manufacturing, and even fossil fuel fire power plants. So
Speaker 1: wherever you have concentrated stream of CEO two. You can
Speaker 1: capture it dissolving in water and inject for storage. Is
Speaker 1: the idea for car picked as a company, not a
Speaker 1: science project as it was back in you know six.
Speaker 1: Is it to go to emitters in India, Japan, South Africa, Ethiopia,
Speaker 1: wherever and take their CEO two and inject it right
Speaker 1: under their feet, or is it something else? This is
Speaker 1: always the most economical way to go. I think it's
Speaker 1: important that we have demonstrated it here that you know,
Speaker 1: we're we're running this whole CCS chain at about twenty
Speaker 1: five dollars per ton, and that is actually very economical.
Speaker 1: It's way lower than the current e t S emission
Speaker 1: allowance is selling for and it's lower than the tax
Speaker 1: credit in the US. That's right. But I will give
Speaker 1: you these are somewhat idealized conditions where we are. But
Speaker 1: this is always the most economical way to go, and
Speaker 1: it lowers the entry barrier into CCS because really CCS
Speaker 1: up till now has only been done by governments and
Speaker 1: big oil and gas. But now you can actually you know,
Speaker 1: go to a medium sized enterprise which is you know,
Speaker 1: producing cement for example, and implement this technology there. So
Speaker 1: that's one pathway. Another pathway is direct air capture like
Speaker 1: we're demonstrating here, and for that you only need the
Speaker 1: bedrock and the energy that it demands. And the third,
Speaker 1: and I think this will be the most important halfway
Speaker 1: for CCS, is you know, establishing these storage hubs or
Speaker 1: industrial clusters where you have a lot of injection capacity
Speaker 1: and where you can actually ship the CEO two either
Speaker 1: by ship or pipeline, so that you know you you
Speaker 1: have these concentrated clusters where either we have to build
Speaker 1: up transport network to transport the CEO too to the
Speaker 1: favorable storage sides, or we simply have to build the
Speaker 1: industries next to these storage sides. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: the future will be a combination of both. For example,
Speaker 1: here in Iceland we are starting to demonstrate this storage
Speaker 1: hub concept by a project called the Cota Terminal and
Speaker 1: we are planning to ship in liquidized CEO two on
Speaker 1: tankers from northern Europe for operation in so quite soon. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's relatively soon. We have a lot to do still,
Speaker 1: um but I think once we have demonstrated the mineral
Speaker 1: storage hub concept here in Iceland, then it will be
Speaker 1: ready for applications in strategic locations around the world where
Speaker 1: they have actually much more emissions than we do here
Speaker 1: in Iceland. In Iceland, we really, you know, we're lacking
Speaker 1: the Seal two. We have the rocks, we have the water,
Speaker 1: but we don't have the Seal two, right, right. But
Speaker 1: but this is where really where you know, carbon capturing
Speaker 1: stories can reach these climate relevant scales by building up
Speaker 1: these hubs. And we're by no means the only ones
Speaker 1: doing it. In Europe. There is you know, Project Longship
Speaker 1: in in Norway. There are other CCS projects, and the
Speaker 1: European Union is dead serious when they're saying that we
Speaker 1: are building up these carbon transport networks and we simply
Speaker 1: are going to be one note in this network. We
Speaker 1: need to transform our infrastructure. Right in Iceland, we transformed
Speaker 1: the infrastructure in relation to geothermal like in the district teaching.
Speaker 1: We used to be an oil country. So now we
Speaker 1: need yet another transformation of infrastructure to actually transport CEO too.
Speaker 1: We need oil in reverse. But and people always tell
Speaker 1: me when I tell them about this code terminal project
Speaker 1: in which we are you know, shipping Seal two from Europe,
Speaker 1: it sounds sci fi, right, capturing Seal two, liquidizing it,
Speaker 1: putting on our ships, shipping it all the way to
Speaker 1: Iceland for you know, this economic permanent storage. But you
Speaker 1: know how sci FI is the oil and gas infrastructure.
Speaker 1: If you think about it, I mean, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: crazy infrastructure. You know, you're pumping up so much fossil
Speaker 1: fuels from deep underground. You know, you're and you're you know,
Speaker 1: putting in our tank ships, and you're shipping it all
Speaker 1: its world on all these petrol stations inso different materials. Exactly,
Speaker 1: it is crazy infrastructure, and you're you know, you're you're
Speaker 1: shipping it like, you know, halfway across the world, and
Speaker 1: now we are shipping CEO two like from northern Europe
Speaker 1: to Iceland. I mean, that's that's nothing. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: the point I'm trying to make is like it was
Speaker 1: crazy infrastructure that got us into this mess in the
Speaker 1: first place, and we need big solutions to get us
Speaker 1: out of this mess. So I realized the Code of
Speaker 1: Terminal has to be your big priority right now. But
Speaker 1: is there another country besides Iceland that you're looking for
Speaker 1: another demonstration or scale up project for another cluster hub?
Speaker 1: People tell us what the cold determinal is, like, you know,
Speaker 1: can you get any bigger? So we're already you know,
Speaker 1: looking at the code de terminal two point though perhaps
Speaker 1: in Iceland. I tell you what sounds sci fi to
Speaker 1: me is is when you said when we were at
Speaker 1: the site that that Iceland, you know it's an island,
Speaker 1: right that you said it could house all of the
Speaker 1: CEO two you know, created by mankind. Like that number
Speaker 1: sounds just unfathomable to me, but I get it. If
Speaker 1: Iceland can take it, then maybe that's the industry. Maybe
Speaker 1: the code of terminal two point oh three point oh
Speaker 1: is the answer. Maybe just ship it all here and
Speaker 1: becomes the the SINC for the world. It's gonna depend
Speaker 1: a lot on how economic we can make the transport
Speaker 1: link in the CCS chain. So I mean Iceland is
Speaker 1: you know, admittedly far away, but the economics work because
Speaker 1: the storage is so cheap. We are doing it on
Speaker 1: shore as opposed to offshore, where things are usually ten
Speaker 1: times more expensive, and we are using low cost, low
Speaker 1: risk approach to you know, expanding. We're using multiple shallow
Speaker 1: injection wells instead of like one ginormous deep injection well,
Speaker 1: and they're not special wells are they You're not looking
Speaker 1: for a reservoir or anything, I assume, I mean you're
Speaker 1: looking for basalt. But basalt, I mean, you know, not
Speaker 1: all basalt is equal. I mean, I mean we we
Speaker 1: prefer to be in like young, fresh basalts, you know,
Speaker 1: just to make things easier. And and you know, because
Speaker 1: we have demonstrated here there are older and more altered
Speaker 1: basalts that can sequest their carbon for sure. But when
Speaker 1: we're talking about these big scale projects that you know
Speaker 1: haven't been demonstrated before, we will start out in our
Speaker 1: comfort zone for sure. Um, But for the cubs in
Speaker 1: the other places in the world, you know, that remains
Speaker 1: to be seen where where we can actually where we
Speaker 1: should actually place them. And it depends on many other
Speaker 1: things than geology. It's also politics, permitting, financing, interests, et cetera.
Speaker 1: That goes into the equation here. Well, let's go to
Speaker 1: that we talked about the source or the sink under
Speaker 1: my feet. You just announced yesterday October and we're recording
Speaker 1: this that you're going to start storing CEO two from there.
Speaker 1: Was it I sell project, I sell aluminum plant in
Speaker 1: Iceland here? Yeah, So the real tinto aluminum smelters in Iceland.
Speaker 1: It's co located with the Cotal terminal. Okay, so they're
Speaker 1: actually sitting in the same location, and and they're actually
Speaker 1: sitting on the freshest and nicest basoft for carbon storage
Speaker 1: that you know you can find in Iceland with a
Speaker 1: lot of fresh water. So so there's everything there. Oh wow, okay,
Speaker 1: I think what you know Real Tinto has just realized
Speaker 1: is that they are going to have an operating injection
Speaker 1: site in right at their doorstep, So it makes sense
Speaker 1: to develop carbon capture and storage here. Now, carbon capture
Speaker 1: and storage in the aluminum sector is not easy. The
Speaker 1: CEO two, you know, stream coming from from an aluminum
Speaker 1: production facility is very diluted, low concentration, very low concentration
Speaker 1: of CU two. But they are working on modifying their
Speaker 1: processes getting the concentration up so that they will have
Speaker 1: a capturable source of CEO two by five. Do you
Speaker 1: deal with that part or do you just take the
Speaker 1: CEO two when it's ready for storage. We will, you know,
Speaker 1: facilitate in in carbon capture as as much as we can.
Speaker 1: Hearing minds with minds. Yeah, we are experts in carbon storage,
Speaker 1: but but we have our complete carbon capture and storage
Speaker 1: chain here. So at some point their CEO two concentration
Speaker 1: will be good enough for us to take over. Maybe
Speaker 1: we'll have to have an extra module there in between,
Speaker 1: another technology that you know, opposite concentrations or purifies it
Speaker 1: or something like that. But this is you know, there
Speaker 1: are several options on the table right now. Okay, let's say, well,
Speaker 1: I mean, congratulations on that. It's really cool and that
Speaker 1: you say that's going to go on in likely? Is
Speaker 1: that right? That's what we're aiming for, and just for
Speaker 1: really listening. That's part of Rio Tinto's seven point five
Speaker 1: billion dollar announcement they made last week to reduce Scope
Speaker 1: one and two emissions by sixteen point three million tons
Speaker 1: per year by so clearly they had this in mindment
Speaker 1: with there they made that announcement. That's an oddly specific number,
Speaker 1: sixteen point three million tons per year. Do you know
Speaker 1: what proportion or how much they plan to injector how
Speaker 1: much this smelter emits. Well, this smelter emits a little
Speaker 1: over three hundred thousand tons per year, Okay, so it's
Speaker 1: it's a small portion of the sixteen point three million.
Speaker 1: You've got the point three, that's right. Yeah, yeah, so
Speaker 1: when when we're done, it's will be sixteen well hopefully more. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, we'll we'll see how far we can go.
Speaker 1: I mean usually in most industries, these are demonstrated technologies.
Speaker 1: You can just go and choose a company, choose a
Speaker 1: service provider, and you can just start doing it with
Speaker 1: an a woman smelter like I you know mentioned there
Speaker 1: is R and D involved. So we don't know exactly
Speaker 1: if they will be ready in five when we will
Speaker 1: start operating the Coulta terminal, but at least we will
Speaker 1: be there and the storage side will be operational, and
Speaker 1: we already one day already. Okay, I was going to
Speaker 1: use a you know, hypothetical company as an example, but
Speaker 1: I'm going to use Rio Tinto. Ivan Vella, the CEO
Speaker 1: in a story you know, read from Bloomberg about this
Speaker 1: said quote, beyond this this project, we will look for
Speaker 1: opportunities to apply card fixes technology for decorganization across Rio
Speaker 1: Tinto's operations. All right, So they let's say they come
Speaker 1: to you with a project in Australia. You know, a
Speaker 1: plant in Australia they want to decarbonize, or a smelter
Speaker 1: or something like that in Australia. Do you say, great,
Speaker 1: let's do the storage here, or do you say, okay,
Speaker 1: let me let me find you a ship and we'll
Speaker 1: take it to a hub, you know, at the coded
Speaker 1: terminal first we'll see if we can inject it on site.
Speaker 1: It's always the cheapest way to go and and and
Speaker 1: the most economical way to go. So if for some
Speaker 1: reason that turns out to be not favorable. And it's
Speaker 1: not only about the chemistry and of the rocks, it's
Speaker 1: also about the permeability. Can you get all this fluid
Speaker 1: into the underground? Is there space for it? I mean
Speaker 1: this this is also a big concern. I mean Australia
Speaker 1: has a hot, dry rock. They keep talking about it,
Speaker 1: right for at least a decade ago they did. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and but but the next step would be like, okay,
Speaker 1: is this emitter you know, uh in a position where
Speaker 1: it can you know, ship seal two or transported via
Speaker 1: pipeline or or shift two way favorable storage side This
Speaker 1: might be like mineral storage, but this could also be
Speaker 1: like conventional carbon capture and storage side, like the oil
Speaker 1: and gas industry is doing. Um so, so that is
Speaker 1: the pathway Number two So the third pathway, and you
Speaker 1: should never do this with industrial emission is direct air captured.
Speaker 1: So direct air captured you only offset the emissions that
Speaker 1: you cannot be carbonized by other means. It's important to actually,
Speaker 1: you know, emphasize this point because people tend to think
Speaker 1: about direct air capture and and storage as you know,
Speaker 1: being a silver bullet, right. You know, oh you you
Speaker 1: you omit this much deal too. You take this much
Speaker 1: deal too out in the atmosphere. You know, it's a
Speaker 1: zero zum game. But you know, the most important thing
Speaker 1: right now is that we need to stop emissions from
Speaker 1: these concentrated sources, Like concentrated point sources are like sevent
Speaker 1: of all the emissions. So we need to put a
Speaker 1: stop on that right now. And that's an urgent task
Speaker 1: for us to do now. Direct air capture needs to
Speaker 1: be at scale by mid century. It's nice to start
Speaker 1: here in Iceland, to start the development here, and we've
Speaker 1: demonstrated it, which is, you know, very cool. I think
Speaker 1: in will look back and say, oh, this this big industry.
Speaker 1: Now it's started here. It's kind of cool. But but
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, this is a long distance run
Speaker 1: direct their capture stopping emissions. This is a sprint. We
Speaker 1: must start this right now. I couldn't agree more as
Speaker 1: a human. But let me ask you another question. So
Speaker 1: let's say I'm not Rio Tinto. Let's say I'm I
Speaker 1: don't know Microsoft or Stripe, you know, both of which
Speaker 1: have a beyond or further than that zero, a net
Speaker 1: negative carbon emission goal. What would you tell them were
Speaker 1: they to come to you and say, hey, I'd like
Speaker 1: to offset my c O two, I'd like to inject
Speaker 1: a ton of c O two. You said you can
Speaker 1: measure it to the Graham right of c O two.
Speaker 1: That to me, you know, from my E S G targets,
Speaker 1: that's really important. What what do you tell me? Yeah,
Speaker 1: when when it comes to carbon capture and storage, I
Speaker 1: reiterate the importance of stopping emissions from point sources. Now
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily you know, Google's responsibility or Microsoft responsibility
Speaker 1: of you know, stopping emissions from uh, some industries emissions
Speaker 1: I mean and and you know, for example, in Europe
Speaker 1: there are you know, mandatory markets that these industries must
Speaker 1: comply to, which is for example, E T S emission allowances.
Speaker 1: But typically Microsoft and and and these companies Stripe, they
Speaker 1: have like a portfolio of solutions, so they are you know,
Speaker 1: you know, hedging their bets and and they're really you
Speaker 1: know trying to you know, kick start you know, you know,
Speaker 1: some great innovations in climate science and in in curbing
Speaker 1: climate change. So this is what they're doing, not only
Speaker 1: with direct air capture, but but also other natural solutions
Speaker 1: for example. And I think someone needs to do is
Speaker 1: because we know for sure that we will not meet
Speaker 1: our climate goals without going that zero. So I'm happy
Speaker 1: that someone is doing it. Yeah, Okay, okay, I mean
Speaker 1: that's kind of what I've been thinking just that that maybe,
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that we weren't going to talk
Speaker 1: as much about direct air capture, but like that seemed
Speaker 1: to be legit option for companies like that that have
Speaker 1: those targets. It has been a little bit like the
Speaker 1: game of the Chicken and the egg. The industries they
Speaker 1: don't want to commit to capture, and unless they have
Speaker 1: a place to store things. The storage providers they don't
Speaker 1: want to do carbon storage if nobody's going to send
Speaker 1: them to you two. But I I think what we
Speaker 1: really need now is for governments to facilitate and kickstart
Speaker 1: this market. So so that we can deploy faster and
Speaker 1: finance this project faster because we need deployment of them.
Speaker 1: When you think about the number of tons we have
Speaker 1: to avoid by mid century, it's a staggering amount. It's
Speaker 1: you know, one thousand gigatons something like that. And and
Speaker 1: you know, I know, people don't understand what a gigaton is.
Speaker 1: It is, you know, one thousand million tons. If you've
Speaker 1: been to the Good for us, one of the biggest
Speaker 1: waterfalls here in Iceland, you have, Yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 1: mean we calculated that the average flow of good force
Speaker 1: and you you stand there, you see the power, you
Speaker 1: feel the power there, and so much water going down
Speaker 1: that the average flow of good force, that's the amount
Speaker 1: of CEO two we need to be putting under the
Speaker 1: ground on average until So that's just like when you
Speaker 1: when you stand there, if I translate it to Niagara
Speaker 1: Falls better for for a lot of the audience, Yeah,
Speaker 1: two years worth of Niagara falls, that's the CEO two
Speaker 1: we need to avoid with carbon capture and storage. So
Speaker 1: that's that's that's like, you know, over one giga tons
Speaker 1: and by twenty six according to International Energy Agency, and
Speaker 1: and just imagine you just standing next to the Niagara
Speaker 1: Falls and you're just you're watching all this water, watching
Speaker 1: all this enormous power, and you stand there for two
Speaker 1: years and you just watch the water coming down. Replace
Speaker 1: that we see you two. That's that's how much we
Speaker 1: have admitted, you know, and more into the atmosphere since
Speaker 1: industrial revolution. And that's that's what needs to come back.
Speaker 1: We need to reverse what we've been doing. I've never
Speaker 1: heard a better analogy for for CCS and and the
Speaker 1: storage needs. That's that's amazing, that totally makes sense. Well
Speaker 1: on that, I do have one more question, and this
Speaker 1: is going to be after the fact, but there's a
Speaker 1: lot going on this week right in terms of the
Speaker 1: US Infrastructure bill, and there could be changes to the
Speaker 1: tax code for carbon storage or cc C O two
Speaker 1: storage underground. Next week is also the COPY Climate negotiations
Speaker 1: in Glasgow. Are you looking for anything specific to happen
Speaker 1: in either one of those, you know, the improvements to
Speaker 1: the tax tax l in the US or money from
Speaker 1: countries from the cop meetings. In an ideal world, I
Speaker 1: would do ideal first and then we'll do yeah. In
Speaker 1: an ideal world, I would like to see a universal
Speaker 1: price on carbon emissions. Okay, so I understand this is
Speaker 1: not going to happen at Camp twenty six, although we
Speaker 1: will you know, hopefully hopefully make significant strides, you know,
Speaker 1: like you said Article six, I'm I would say that,
Speaker 1: I'm I. I really just want these projects to get
Speaker 1: deployed faster um and and the way we do it.
Speaker 1: I'm not an expert there. I don't want to say
Speaker 1: the word, you know, tax, but we you know, a
Speaker 1: carbon tax is you know, something that we know will
Speaker 1: be effective and it's it's demonstrated to be effective, but
Speaker 1: it's it's uh, and I understand it's politically tough, but
Speaker 1: I hope that we will, you know, have a more
Speaker 1: mature market for Carpon for for carbon because shipping CEO
Speaker 1: two between countries for storage, I mean, this is a
Speaker 1: big enterprise and it won't happen unless you have you know,
Speaker 1: a solid market for it, and we need governments to
Speaker 1: help us create that market. If we don't, then carp
Speaker 1: fixes out of business. I'm going to disagree slightly in
Speaker 1: that you have all these companies and countries that are
Speaker 1: making net zero commitments, right, and you have E s
Speaker 1: G becoming part of investment requirements. Dcs, reporting regulations, things
Speaker 1: like that. And so if anybody is serious about any
Speaker 1: of this, you're gonna have more companies like real tinto
Speaker 1: putting seven point six billion dollars into their net zero goals,
Speaker 1: right and part of that is going to involve moll
Speaker 1: CCS or CEO two storage, whatever you want to call it. Here,
Speaker 1: I think policies is really really critical, but in some
Speaker 1: ways could be nice to have. I don't know, I
Speaker 1: think the market could be taking over. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: with big industries. I mean, they are going to move
Speaker 1: when the carbon price rises. That's that's that that that
Speaker 1: is for sure. And the e t S emission allowances
Speaker 1: has been you know, hovering around twenty euros per ton
Speaker 1: for a long time and they've done nothing, absolutely nothing.
Speaker 1: Now we're up to sixty and now we're seeing movement.
Speaker 1: So you see this goes hand hand in hand um
Speaker 1: and and and that is the big industries. And this
Speaker 1: is you know, the biggest slice of the cake really
Speaker 1: is when you get these big industries to move, then
Speaker 1: you know you will get real action. So the number
Speaker 1: of calls you get is directly correlated to the carbon price.
Speaker 1: It sounds like, yeah, more or less cowdy. Thanks for
Speaker 1: joining us. Thank you much pleasure talking to you all right.
Speaker 1: We'll look forward to having you back when code is built.
Speaker 1: Very good you will be invited. Sweet oh, I look
Speaker 1: forward to it. Today's episode of Switched On was edited
Speaker 1: by Rex Warner of gray Stoke Media. Bloomberg any App
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