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Speaker 1: Can you tell me about it again? So this is

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Speaker 1: basically where it all started. This is where car fixed

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Speaker 1: was developed. This was the initial pilot injection. Well, now

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Speaker 1: we're using it to inject seal two coming from climb Works,

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Speaker 1: this direct air capture plant. So essentially this is an

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Speaker 1: oversized soda stream machine making carbonated water awesome. But the

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Speaker 1: important thing here is this kind of system it can

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Speaker 1: work in other industries as well, not only geothermal power.

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Speaker 1: It can work in you know, cement manufacturing, or or

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Speaker 1: production of steel, or coal fire power plants. Wherever you

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Speaker 1: have like a very highly concentrated source of CEO two,

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Speaker 1: you can actually capture it in water and injected if

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Speaker 1: you're lucky enough to be sitting on top of a

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Speaker 1: favorable bedrock like we are. Okay, here I am outside

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Speaker 1: the hellish d Geo thermal plant in Iceland, just outside recC.

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Speaker 1: It's dark, it's cold. What you just heard it was

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Speaker 1: the sound of our guest today, Kari Helgason, the head

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Speaker 1: of research and innovation for carb Fix, who tell us

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Speaker 1: about their CEO two storage technology where they'll take CEO

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Speaker 1: two from any source and injected underground where it mineralizes

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Speaker 1: or turns to rock under the subsurface in Iceland here

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Speaker 1: fascinating topic. Really enjoyed our conversation. Stay with us as

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Speaker 1: always beat up to stop, provide investment of strategy advice.

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Speaker 1: You can hear the full disclaimer at the end of

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Speaker 1: the show. Mark Taylor from a rock field in Iceland

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Speaker 1: and you're listening to switch on to Being f podcast.

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Speaker 1: Hey Coudy, so thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: This is really awesome. We're standing here at the injection

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Speaker 1: site for the first car fixed project that started back

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and six. How about we just start

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Speaker 1: with the project itself. Can you tell us a bit

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Speaker 1: about carb fix and where it kind of came from.

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Speaker 1: It originally came from a scientist in the United States

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Speaker 1: called Wally Broker. He came here and he was one

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Speaker 1: of the guys who sort of raised awareness about climate

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Speaker 1: change being a threat, like back in the seventies. He

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Speaker 1: came here to Iceland talked to icelandic scientists to actually

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Speaker 1: see whether this natural weathering of producing minerals in bus

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Speaker 1: salts to curb climate change would be an actual, you know, viable.

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Speaker 1: It started in two thousand and six the Carpet Project

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Speaker 1: as an academic and industry collaboration. So really just as

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Speaker 1: an idea that stemmed into a science project. Really people

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Speaker 1: didn't know whether this would work or you know, if

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Speaker 1: we did it, how fast it would work, because you know, naturally,

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Speaker 1: and this is what happens naturally, is that you know,

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Speaker 1: nature keeps a lot of carbon in rocks, CEO tourists,

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Speaker 1: salt in rainwater, it seeps through the bedrock and it

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Speaker 1: turns into minerals on a very long time scales. So

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Speaker 1: the question is would we be able to speed this

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Speaker 1: up to actually make this relevant to carbon capture and

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Speaker 1: sequestration technology. That's where it started doing the academic work, modeling, simulations, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: When finally we put it to the test and injected

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Speaker 1: CEO two into the Icelandic basaltic bedrock, we found out

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Speaker 1: that this was actually happening quite fast, and we are

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Speaker 1: mineralizing all the CEO two that we injected in the

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Speaker 1: matter of under two years. And this was quite a

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Speaker 1: bit faster than people had expected. And this is sort

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Speaker 1: of how it all got started, and then it only

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Speaker 1: took a few more years for it to be implemented

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Speaker 1: in the power plant we're actually sitting in right now.

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Speaker 1: This is a geothermal power plant, which is green energy,

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Speaker 1: but it's still amids CEO two. It accumulates right here

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Speaker 1: to around forty tho tons of CEO two per year,

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Speaker 1: and we are currently taking of that CEO two using

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Speaker 1: the carfix technology and injecting it, and we'll be scaling

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Speaker 1: that up in the next year to make this a

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Speaker 1: you know, full scale carbon capture and storage decombronized plant.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back though, just for a second. Was there

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Speaker 1: was there an aha moment? Did you know before you

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Speaker 1: started injecting c OR two under the underground here in

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Speaker 1: the lab did you see that it was going to

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Speaker 1: mineralize or did you know what was going to happen

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Speaker 1: before you did it? Well, back then, I wasn't working

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Speaker 1: for the company, so I put out I can, but

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Speaker 1: I can I can speak to the p for for

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Speaker 1: the people that were here. For example, at at the

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Speaker 1: CEO of the Carpicks company, she hadn't run models that

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Speaker 1: actually indicated that this would be quite fast. People didn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily believe the models. And I don't think we should

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Speaker 1: always believe models, for sure, they're just to inform. But

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Speaker 1: her models we are actually quite a bit accurate. When

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Speaker 1: you compared it to the experimental data that you know,

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Speaker 1: after the pilot injections. I think the aha moment or

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Speaker 1: the real breakthrough was that, you know, when we actually

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Speaker 1: demonstrated and verified the mineral storage of CEO two being

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Speaker 1: this efficient. So we had actually succeeded in accelerating nature's

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Speaker 1: way of storing carbon. That's really cool. So how did

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Speaker 1: the project itself materialize? You started off with the CEO

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Speaker 1: two from the geothermal plant and then came along the

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Speaker 1: direct air capture idea from from climb Works or how

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Speaker 1: did that whole arrangement happen. We started with the power

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Speaker 1: plant or decombronizing the power plant. That was what was

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Speaker 1: implemented on industrial scale in twenty fourteen. Then we, you know,

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Speaker 1: were introduced to these guys at climb Works, which is

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Speaker 1: a Swiss company that has this direct air captured technology

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Speaker 1: and they were, you know, looking for a place to

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Speaker 1: test their pilot unit. They had been developing this technology

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Speaker 1: in Switzerland and we in I think it was in

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Speaker 1: twenty seventeen when they actually shipped their pilot unit here

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Speaker 1: and so they exposed Moosted to the harsh conditions in Iceland,

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Speaker 1: the weather, the corrosion, the the you know, the hydrogen

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Speaker 1: sulfide and all the geothermal gases that surround us and

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Speaker 1: and put it, you know, through a stress test for

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Speaker 1: several years. And they actually just scaled up this year

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Speaker 1: commissioning the first commercial direct air capture and storage plant.

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Speaker 1: So so their pilot had been running for at least

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Speaker 1: three years before they decided to scale up. But now

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Speaker 1: this has become the first with the world's first commercial

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Speaker 1: direct air capture and storage chain. So we take the

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Speaker 1: seal two out of the atmosphere and we injected into

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Speaker 1: the bedrock where it turns into stone. Okay, so I

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Speaker 1: don't want to spend too much time on direct air capture,

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Speaker 1: but to me, like I've been wanting somebody to tell

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Speaker 1: me I'm wrong about this, that I think direct air

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Speaker 1: capture is really interesting because two things. One is location, right,

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Speaker 1: because in carbon capture and storage often you don't have

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Speaker 1: the point source of C two emissions near the storage

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Speaker 1: location or the sink for the U two, So that's

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Speaker 1: a big problem. The second issue is verification, right. It's

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Speaker 1: a it's the value of a ton of C O

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Speaker 1: two stored or offset, and so there's going to come

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Speaker 1: a point when well, we can't verify all the grass

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Speaker 1: growing in the tundra to to offset the missions through

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Speaker 1: forestry or something like that, or you know, forester burning

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Speaker 1: for various parts of the world, and so you're gonna

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Speaker 1: need to to be able to verify a ton of

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Speaker 1: c U two stored. So I think, you know, direct

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Speaker 1: air capture plus what car fix is doing is really cool.

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Speaker 1: So am I crazy? No, You're You're absolutely right in

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Speaker 1: that everything is measurable to the graham of c O two,

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Speaker 1: and it's very traceable, and it's very transparent, and you

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Speaker 1: you know, you know exactly what is happening, what is

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Speaker 1: being captured, what is going into the ground, and you're

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Speaker 1: doing this in real time. With forestry, there are big uncertainties.

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Speaker 1: It takes a long time for the carbon to be sequestered,

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Speaker 1: and you need a lot of land space. But you know,

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Speaker 1: don't get me wrong. I mean, we do need these

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Speaker 1: natural solutions as well. We do need to plant a

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Speaker 1: lot of trees, and we also need these technological solutions.

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Speaker 1: We need direct air capture technologies to be at the

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Speaker 1: gigaton scale by mid century. I mean that is, if

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Speaker 1: we are to meet our climate goals. That is what

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Speaker 1: we need to do, so we need to do both

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Speaker 1: hand in hand. At the same time, we also have

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Speaker 1: to be comfortable with some uncertainty. You know, if we

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Speaker 1: know that we are sequestering Sale two, we don't know

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Speaker 1: to the Graham, but we just have to do it nevertheless.

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Speaker 1: But this is also what all this research is about,

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Speaker 1: you know, just getting more knowledge and understanding of our

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Speaker 1: natural system in order for us to know better what

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Speaker 1: we need to do and to prioritize what solutions we

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Speaker 1: should fund and which once we should not. So just

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Speaker 1: to make sure we got it. We talked about it

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Speaker 1: briefly at the site, but let's just make sure we

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Speaker 1: got it. Can you explain really how the technology works.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned that you take the CEO two and you

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Speaker 1: combine it with water, and then you combine it with

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Speaker 1: some other chemicals I believe, and injected in the ground

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Speaker 1: or no, no, we just use seal two in water.

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Speaker 1: There you go. So it's just like nature, but accelerating it.

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Speaker 1: We dissolve the seal two in water we injected into

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Speaker 1: the bedrock, and when it enters the formation, the seal

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Speaker 1: two is completely dissolved. So it's like you know, a

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Speaker 1: bottle of soda. Right, you don't see any bubbles until

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Speaker 1: you open it. And deep pressure as it well underground,

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Speaker 1: there is pressure and it keeps the CEO two in solution,

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Speaker 1: so it doesn't want to leak up, It doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to go anywhere, and it actually has the tendency to

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Speaker 1: sink rather than to rise because the fluid is denser

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Speaker 1: than the surrounding water. So we kill the buoyancy that way.

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Speaker 1: And what happens when the acidic fluid, because this is

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Speaker 1: essentially carbonic acid, just like you know sparkling water, what

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Speaker 1: happens is that it starts attacking the rock and dissolving

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Speaker 1: the rock because it's acidic, and the icelandic bad drop

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Speaker 1: or basalts in particular, are very rich in metals such

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Speaker 1: as calcium, magnesium, and iron, and it releases these metals

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Speaker 1: into the fluid and then the chemistry starts happening, that

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Speaker 1: the mineral starts forming, and we start forming magnesium carbonates,

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Speaker 1: calcium carbonates, and iron carbonates. So this is what we

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Speaker 1: mean when we say we turn CEO two into stone,

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Speaker 1: we are turning them into solid carbonate minerals. And once

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Speaker 1: we have verified that these minerals do form then we

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Speaker 1: can simply walk away and we don't need to monitor

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Speaker 1: anything else in the reservoir. That's really cool. Years ago,

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Speaker 1: I was a carbon capture analyst, and the big concern

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Speaker 1: everybody had was that once you injected the CEO two,

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Speaker 1: you had to monitor it for a hundred years to

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Speaker 1: make sure that the CEO two stayed under ground. It

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Speaker 1: seems like you don't have that issue. We do not

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Speaker 1: have that issue because we kill the buoyancy as a

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Speaker 1: set by dissolving in the water, and then when it's solid,

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Speaker 1: we don't have to do anything, So you just have

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Speaker 1: to verify that it happens. But we are also in

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Speaker 1: a different position as the conventional c s c S

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Speaker 1: or or corporon capture and storage projects in which they

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Speaker 1: are injecting actually supercritical seal too very very deep into

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Speaker 1: depleted oil or gas reservoirs. These are typically not located,

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Speaker 1: these geologies are typically not located where basalts and reactive

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Speaker 1: rocks like we are using are located. So actually we

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Speaker 1: think of it as car fix is actually just unlocking

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Speaker 1: a lot of areas in the world where carbon capture

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Speaker 1: storage hasn't even been considered. We've had instances where we're

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Speaker 1: talking to emitters and they just simply don't know that

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Speaker 1: they're sitting on top of a very favorable bedrock for

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Speaker 1: you know, storing CEO two. So we're just trying to

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Speaker 1: get the word out there, and we have like an

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Speaker 1: mineral storage atlas on our website where people can actually

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Speaker 1: just go and and look where are these favorable regions.

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Speaker 1: We'll give us a rundown likewise, so we know Iceland

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Speaker 1: you mentioned all the world's emissions could be or in Iceland,

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Speaker 1: but where else for example India, Japan, West Coast, United States,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of the sea floor as well that's

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Speaker 1: mostly bussolved bus salts and and these reactive rock formations

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Speaker 1: are found in every continent. They cover around five percent

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Speaker 1: of all the landmass on Earth, so it's the most

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Speaker 1: common rock type on Earth, and it's found in many,

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Speaker 1: many countries. The list goes on. But the important thing

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Speaker 1: is also it's not only that it's widespread, it's also

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Speaker 1: that this also works in industries outside the geothermal and

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Speaker 1: direct air capture. So we could hook up to cement manufacturing,

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Speaker 1: steel manufacturing, and even fossil fuel fire power plants. So

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Speaker 1: wherever you have concentrated stream of CEO two. You can

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Speaker 1: capture it dissolving in water and inject for storage. Is

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Speaker 1: the idea for car picked as a company, not a

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Speaker 1: science project as it was back in you know six.

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Speaker 1: Is it to go to emitters in India, Japan, South Africa, Ethiopia,

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Speaker 1: wherever and take their CEO two and inject it right

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Speaker 1: under their feet, or is it something else? This is

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Speaker 1: always the most economical way to go. I think it's

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Speaker 1: important that we have demonstrated it here that you know,

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Speaker 1: we're we're running this whole CCS chain at about twenty

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Speaker 1: five dollars per ton, and that is actually very economical.

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Speaker 1: It's way lower than the current e t S emission

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Speaker 1: allowance is selling for and it's lower than the tax

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Speaker 1: credit in the US. That's right. But I will give

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Speaker 1: you these are somewhat idealized conditions where we are. But

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Speaker 1: this is always the most economical way to go, and

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Speaker 1: it lowers the entry barrier into CCS because really CCS

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Speaker 1: up till now has only been done by governments and

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Speaker 1: big oil and gas. But now you can actually you know,

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Speaker 1: go to a medium sized enterprise which is you know,

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Speaker 1: producing cement for example, and implement this technology there. So

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Speaker 1: that's one pathway. Another pathway is direct air capture like

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Speaker 1: we're demonstrating here, and for that you only need the

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Speaker 1: bedrock and the energy that it demands. And the third,

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Speaker 1: and I think this will be the most important halfway

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Speaker 1: for CCS, is you know, establishing these storage hubs or

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Speaker 1: industrial clusters where you have a lot of injection capacity

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Speaker 1: and where you can actually ship the CEO two either

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Speaker 1: by ship or pipeline, so that you know you you

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Speaker 1: have these concentrated clusters where either we have to build

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Speaker 1: up transport network to transport the CEO too to the

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Speaker 1: favorable storage sides, or we simply have to build the

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Speaker 1: industries next to these storage sides. I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: the future will be a combination of both. For example,

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Speaker 1: here in Iceland we are starting to demonstrate this storage

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Speaker 1: hub concept by a project called the Cota Terminal and

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Speaker 1: we are planning to ship in liquidized CEO two on

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Speaker 1: tankers from northern Europe for operation in so quite soon. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's relatively soon. We have a lot to do still,

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Speaker 1: um but I think once we have demonstrated the mineral

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Speaker 1: storage hub concept here in Iceland, then it will be

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Speaker 1: ready for applications in strategic locations around the world where

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Speaker 1: they have actually much more emissions than we do here

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Speaker 1: in Iceland. In Iceland, we really, you know, we're lacking

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Speaker 1: the Seal two. We have the rocks, we have the water,

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Speaker 1: but we don't have the Seal two, right, right. But

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Speaker 1: but this is where really where you know, carbon capturing

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Speaker 1: stories can reach these climate relevant scales by building up

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Speaker 1: these hubs. And we're by no means the only ones

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Speaker 1: doing it. In Europe. There is you know, Project Longship

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Speaker 1: in in Norway. There are other CCS projects, and the

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Speaker 1: European Union is dead serious when they're saying that we

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Speaker 1: are building up these carbon transport networks and we simply

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Speaker 1: are going to be one note in this network. We

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Speaker 1: need to transform our infrastructure. Right in Iceland, we transformed

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Speaker 1: the infrastructure in relation to geothermal like in the district teaching.

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Speaker 1: We used to be an oil country. So now we

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Speaker 1: need yet another transformation of infrastructure to actually transport CEO too.

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Speaker 1: We need oil in reverse. But and people always tell

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Speaker 1: me when I tell them about this code terminal project

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Speaker 1: in which we are you know, shipping Seal two from Europe,

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Speaker 1: it sounds sci fi, right, capturing Seal two, liquidizing it,

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Speaker 1: putting on our ships, shipping it all the way to

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Speaker 1: Iceland for you know, this economic permanent storage. But you

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Speaker 1: know how sci FI is the oil and gas infrastructure.

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Speaker 1: If you think about it, I mean, it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: crazy infrastructure. You know, you're pumping up so much fossil

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Speaker 1: fuels from deep underground. You know, you're and you're you know,

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Speaker 1: putting in our tank ships, and you're shipping it all

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Speaker 1: its world on all these petrol stations inso different materials. Exactly,

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Speaker 1: it is crazy infrastructure, and you're you know, you're you're

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Speaker 1: shipping it like, you know, halfway across the world, and

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Speaker 1: now we are shipping CEO two like from northern Europe

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Speaker 1: to Iceland. I mean, that's that's nothing. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: the point I'm trying to make is like it was

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Speaker 1: crazy infrastructure that got us into this mess in the

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Speaker 1: first place, and we need big solutions to get us

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Speaker 1: out of this mess. So I realized the Code of

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Speaker 1: Terminal has to be your big priority right now. But

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Speaker 1: is there another country besides Iceland that you're looking for

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Speaker 1: another demonstration or scale up project for another cluster hub?

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Speaker 1: People tell us what the cold determinal is, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: can you get any bigger? So we're already you know,

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Speaker 1: looking at the code de terminal two point though perhaps

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Speaker 1: in Iceland. I tell you what sounds sci fi to

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Speaker 1: me is is when you said when we were at

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Speaker 1: the site that that Iceland, you know it's an island,

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Speaker 1: right that you said it could house all of the

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Speaker 1: CEO two you know, created by mankind. Like that number

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Speaker 1: sounds just unfathomable to me, but I get it. If

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Speaker 1: Iceland can take it, then maybe that's the industry. Maybe

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Speaker 1: the code of terminal two point oh three point oh

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Speaker 1: is the answer. Maybe just ship it all here and

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Speaker 1: becomes the the SINC for the world. It's gonna depend

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Speaker 1: a lot on how economic we can make the transport

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Speaker 1: link in the CCS chain. So I mean Iceland is

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Speaker 1: you know, admittedly far away, but the economics work because

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Speaker 1: the storage is so cheap. We are doing it on

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Speaker 1: shore as opposed to offshore, where things are usually ten

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Speaker 1: times more expensive, and we are using low cost, low

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Speaker 1: risk approach to you know, expanding. We're using multiple shallow

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Speaker 1: injection wells instead of like one ginormous deep injection well,

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Speaker 1: and they're not special wells are they You're not looking

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Speaker 1: for a reservoir or anything, I assume, I mean you're

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Speaker 1: looking for basalt. But basalt, I mean, you know, not

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Speaker 1: all basalt is equal. I mean, I mean we we

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Speaker 1: prefer to be in like young, fresh basalts, you know,

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Speaker 1: just to make things easier. And and you know, because

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Speaker 1: we have demonstrated here there are older and more altered

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Speaker 1: basalts that can sequest their carbon for sure. But when

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Speaker 1: we're talking about these big scale projects that you know

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Speaker 1: haven't been demonstrated before, we will start out in our

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Speaker 1: comfort zone for sure. Um, But for the cubs in

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Speaker 1: the other places in the world, you know, that remains

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Speaker 1: to be seen where where we can actually where we

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Speaker 1: should actually place them. And it depends on many other

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Speaker 1: things than geology. It's also politics, permitting, financing, interests, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: That goes into the equation here. Well, let's go to

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Speaker 1: that we talked about the source or the sink under

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Speaker 1: my feet. You just announced yesterday October and we're recording

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Speaker 1: this that you're going to start storing CEO two from there.

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Speaker 1: Was it I sell project, I sell aluminum plant in

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Speaker 1: Iceland here? Yeah, So the real tinto aluminum smelters in Iceland.

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Speaker 1: It's co located with the Cotal terminal. Okay, so they're

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Speaker 1: actually sitting in the same location, and and they're actually

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Speaker 1: sitting on the freshest and nicest basoft for carbon storage

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Speaker 1: that you know you can find in Iceland with a

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Speaker 1: lot of fresh water. So so there's everything there. Oh wow, okay,

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Speaker 1: I think what you know Real Tinto has just realized

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Speaker 1: is that they are going to have an operating injection

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Speaker 1: site in right at their doorstep, So it makes sense

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Speaker 1: to develop carbon capture and storage here. Now, carbon capture

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Speaker 1: and storage in the aluminum sector is not easy. The

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Speaker 1: CEO two, you know, stream coming from from an aluminum

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Speaker 1: production facility is very diluted, low concentration, very low concentration

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Speaker 1: of CU two. But they are working on modifying their

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Speaker 1: processes getting the concentration up so that they will have

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Speaker 1: a capturable source of CEO two by five. Do you

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Speaker 1: deal with that part or do you just take the

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Speaker 1: CEO two when it's ready for storage. We will, you know,

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Speaker 1: facilitate in in carbon capture as as much as we can.

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Speaker 1: Hearing minds with minds. Yeah, we are experts in carbon storage,

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Speaker 1: but but we have our complete carbon capture and storage

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Speaker 1: chain here. So at some point their CEO two concentration

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Speaker 1: will be good enough for us to take over. Maybe

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Speaker 1: we'll have to have an extra module there in between,

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Speaker 1: another technology that you know, opposite concentrations or purifies it

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Speaker 1: or something like that. But this is you know, there

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Speaker 1: are several options on the table right now. Okay, let's say, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, congratulations on that. It's really cool and that

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Speaker 1: you say that's going to go on in likely? Is

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Speaker 1: that right? That's what we're aiming for, and just for

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Speaker 1: really listening. That's part of Rio Tinto's seven point five

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Speaker 1: billion dollar announcement they made last week to reduce Scope

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Speaker 1: one and two emissions by sixteen point three million tons

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Speaker 1: per year by so clearly they had this in mindment

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Speaker 1: with there they made that announcement. That's an oddly specific number,

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Speaker 1: sixteen point three million tons per year. Do you know

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Speaker 1: what proportion or how much they plan to injector how

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Speaker 1: much this smelter emits. Well, this smelter emits a little

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Speaker 1: over three hundred thousand tons per year, Okay, so it's

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Speaker 1: it's a small portion of the sixteen point three million.

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Speaker 1: You've got the point three, that's right. Yeah, yeah, so

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Speaker 1: when when we're done, it's will be sixteen well hopefully more. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, we'll we'll see how far we can go.

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Speaker 1: I mean usually in most industries, these are demonstrated technologies.

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Speaker 1: You can just go and choose a company, choose a

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Speaker 1: service provider, and you can just start doing it with

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Speaker 1: an a woman smelter like I you know mentioned there

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Speaker 1: is R and D involved. So we don't know exactly

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Speaker 1: if they will be ready in five when we will

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Speaker 1: start operating the Coulta terminal, but at least we will

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Speaker 1: be there and the storage side will be operational, and

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Speaker 1: we already one day already. Okay, I was going to

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Speaker 1: use a you know, hypothetical company as an example, but

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Speaker 1: I'm going to use Rio Tinto. Ivan Vella, the CEO

398
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Speaker 1: in a story you know, read from Bloomberg about this

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Speaker 1: said quote, beyond this this project, we will look for

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Speaker 1: opportunities to apply card fixes technology for decorganization across Rio

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Speaker 1: Tinto's operations. All right, So they let's say they come

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Speaker 1: to you with a project in Australia. You know, a

403
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Speaker 1: plant in Australia they want to decarbonize, or a smelter

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Speaker 1: or something like that in Australia. Do you say, great,

405
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Speaker 1: let's do the storage here, or do you say, okay,

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Speaker 1: let me let me find you a ship and we'll

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Speaker 1: take it to a hub, you know, at the coded

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00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 1: terminal first we'll see if we can inject it on site.

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Speaker 1: It's always the cheapest way to go and and and

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Speaker 1: the most economical way to go. So if for some

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Speaker 1: reason that turns out to be not favorable. And it's

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Speaker 1: not only about the chemistry and of the rocks, it's

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Speaker 1: also about the permeability. Can you get all this fluid

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Speaker 1: into the underground? Is there space for it? I mean

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Speaker 1: this this is also a big concern. I mean Australia

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Speaker 1: has a hot, dry rock. They keep talking about it,

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Speaker 1: right for at least a decade ago they did. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and but but the next step would be like, okay,

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Speaker 1: is this emitter you know, uh in a position where

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Speaker 1: it can you know, ship seal two or transported via

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Speaker 1: pipeline or or shift two way favorable storage side This

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Speaker 1: might be like mineral storage, but this could also be

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Speaker 1: like conventional carbon capture and storage side, like the oil

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Speaker 1: and gas industry is doing. Um so, so that is

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Speaker 1: the pathway Number two So the third pathway, and you

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Speaker 1: should never do this with industrial emission is direct air captured.

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Speaker 1: So direct air captured you only offset the emissions that

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Speaker 1: you cannot be carbonized by other means. It's important to actually,

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Speaker 1: you know, emphasize this point because people tend to think

430
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: about direct air capture and and storage as you know,

431
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 1: being a silver bullet, right. You know, oh you you

432
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 1: you omit this much deal too. You take this much

433
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 1: deal too out in the atmosphere. You know, it's a

434
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: zero zum game. But you know, the most important thing

435
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: right now is that we need to stop emissions from

436
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: these concentrated sources, Like concentrated point sources are like sevent

437
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 1: of all the emissions. So we need to put a

438
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 1: stop on that right now. And that's an urgent task

439
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 1: for us to do now. Direct air capture needs to

440
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 1: be at scale by mid century. It's nice to start

441
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 1: here in Iceland, to start the development here, and we've

442
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 1: demonstrated it, which is, you know, very cool. I think

443
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: in will look back and say, oh, this this big industry.

444
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: Now it's started here. It's kind of cool. But but

445
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, this is a long distance run

446
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 1: direct their capture stopping emissions. This is a sprint. We

447
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: must start this right now. I couldn't agree more as

448
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 1: a human. But let me ask you another question. So

449
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: let's say I'm not Rio Tinto. Let's say I'm I

450
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: don't know Microsoft or Stripe, you know, both of which

451
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: have a beyond or further than that zero, a net

452
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: negative carbon emission goal. What would you tell them were

453
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 1: they to come to you and say, hey, I'd like

454
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: to offset my c O two, I'd like to inject

455
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 1: a ton of c O two. You said you can

456
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: measure it to the Graham right of c O two.

457
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 1: That to me, you know, from my E S G targets,

458
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 1: that's really important. What what do you tell me? Yeah,

459
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: when when it comes to carbon capture and storage, I

460
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 1: reiterate the importance of stopping emissions from point sources. Now

461
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily you know, Google's responsibility or Microsoft responsibility

462
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: of you know, stopping emissions from uh, some industries emissions

463
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: I mean and and you know, for example, in Europe

464
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 1: there are you know, mandatory markets that these industries must

465
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: comply to, which is for example, E T S emission allowances.

466
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: But typically Microsoft and and and these companies Stripe, they

467
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 1: have like a portfolio of solutions, so they are you know,

468
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 1: you know, hedging their bets and and they're really you

469
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,239
Speaker 1: know trying to you know, kick start you know, you know,

470
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 1: some great innovations in climate science and in in curbing

471
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: climate change. So this is what they're doing, not only

472
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: with direct air capture, but but also other natural solutions

473
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: for example. And I think someone needs to do is

474
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 1: because we know for sure that we will not meet

475
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: our climate goals without going that zero. So I'm happy

476
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: that someone is doing it. Yeah, Okay, okay, I mean

477
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 1: that's kind of what I've been thinking just that that maybe,

478
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that we weren't going to talk

479
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: as much about direct air capture, but like that seemed

480
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: to be legit option for companies like that that have

481
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 1: those targets. It has been a little bit like the

482
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 1: game of the Chicken and the egg. The industries they

483
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 1: don't want to commit to capture, and unless they have

484
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 1: a place to store things. The storage providers they don't

485
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: want to do carbon storage if nobody's going to send

486
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: them to you two. But I I think what we

487
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: really need now is for governments to facilitate and kickstart

488
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: this market. So so that we can deploy faster and

489
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: finance this project faster because we need deployment of them.

490
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: When you think about the number of tons we have

491
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: to avoid by mid century, it's a staggering amount. It's

492
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: you know, one thousand gigatons something like that. And and

493
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: you know, I know, people don't understand what a gigaton is.

494
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 1: It is, you know, one thousand million tons. If you've

495
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: been to the Good for us, one of the biggest

496
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: waterfalls here in Iceland, you have, Yeah, I mean, I

497
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 1: mean we calculated that the average flow of good force

498
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,439
Speaker 1: and you you stand there, you see the power, you

499
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: feel the power there, and so much water going down

500
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: that the average flow of good force, that's the amount

501
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: of CEO two we need to be putting under the

502
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 1: ground on average until So that's just like when you

503
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 1: when you stand there, if I translate it to Niagara

504
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: Falls better for for a lot of the audience, Yeah,

505
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: two years worth of Niagara falls, that's the CEO two

506
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,959
Speaker 1: we need to avoid with carbon capture and storage. So

507
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: that's that's that's like, you know, over one giga tons

508
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: and by twenty six according to International Energy Agency, and

509
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: and just imagine you just standing next to the Niagara

510
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: Falls and you're just you're watching all this water, watching

511
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: all this enormous power, and you stand there for two

512
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: years and you just watch the water coming down. Replace

513
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: that we see you two. That's that's how much we

514
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: have admitted, you know, and more into the atmosphere since

515
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: industrial revolution. And that's that's what needs to come back.

516
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: We need to reverse what we've been doing. I've never

517
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: heard a better analogy for for CCS and and the

518
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: storage needs. That's that's amazing, that totally makes sense. Well

519
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: on that, I do have one more question, and this

520
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,239
Speaker 1: is going to be after the fact, but there's a

521
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: lot going on this week right in terms of the

522
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: US Infrastructure bill, and there could be changes to the

523
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: tax code for carbon storage or cc C O two

524
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: storage underground. Next week is also the COPY Climate negotiations

525
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: in Glasgow. Are you looking for anything specific to happen

526
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: in either one of those, you know, the improvements to

527
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: the tax tax l in the US or money from

528
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: countries from the cop meetings. In an ideal world, I

529
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: would do ideal first and then we'll do yeah. In

530
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: an ideal world, I would like to see a universal

531
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: price on carbon emissions. Okay, so I understand this is

532
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: not going to happen at Camp twenty six, although we

533
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: will you know, hopefully hopefully make significant strides, you know,

534
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: like you said Article six, I'm I would say that,

535
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:31,479
Speaker 1: I'm I. I really just want these projects to get

536
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: deployed faster um and and the way we do it.

537
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: I'm not an expert there. I don't want to say

538
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: the word, you know, tax, but we you know, a

539
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: carbon tax is you know, something that we know will

540
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: be effective and it's it's demonstrated to be effective, but

541
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: it's it's uh, and I understand it's politically tough, but

542
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: I hope that we will, you know, have a more

543
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: mature market for Carpon for for carbon because shipping CEO

544
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,479
Speaker 1: two between countries for storage, I mean, this is a

545
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: big enterprise and it won't happen unless you have you know,

546
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: a solid market for it, and we need governments to

547
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: help us create that market. If we don't, then carp

548
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: fixes out of business. I'm going to disagree slightly in

549
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: that you have all these companies and countries that are

550
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: making net zero commitments, right, and you have E s

551
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: G becoming part of investment requirements. Dcs, reporting regulations, things

552
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: like that. And so if anybody is serious about any

553
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: of this, you're gonna have more companies like real tinto

554
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: putting seven point six billion dollars into their net zero goals,

555
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: right and part of that is going to involve moll

556
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: CCS or CEO two storage, whatever you want to call it. Here,

557
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: I think policies is really really critical, but in some

558
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: ways could be nice to have. I don't know, I

559
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: think the market could be taking over. I'm not sure

560
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: with big industries. I mean, they are going to move

561
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: when the carbon price rises. That's that's that that that

562
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: is for sure. And the e t S emission allowances

563
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: has been you know, hovering around twenty euros per ton

564
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: for a long time and they've done nothing, absolutely nothing.

565
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: Now we're up to sixty and now we're seeing movement.

566
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: So you see this goes hand hand in hand um

567
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: and and and that is the big industries. And this

568
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: is you know, the biggest slice of the cake really

569
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: is when you get these big industries to move, then

570
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: you know you will get real action. So the number

571
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: of calls you get is directly correlated to the carbon price.

572
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: It sounds like, yeah, more or less cowdy. Thanks for

573
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: joining us. Thank you much pleasure talking to you all right.

574
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 1: We'll look forward to having you back when code is built.

575
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: Very good you will be invited. Sweet oh, I look

576
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: forward to it. Today's episode of Switched On was edited

577
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: by Rex Warner of gray Stoke Media. Bloomberg any App

578
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: is a service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates.

579
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: This recording does not constitute, nor should it be construed,

580
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: as investment advice, investment recommendations, or a recommendation as to

581
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: an investment or other strategy. Bloomberg an E should not

582
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: be considered as information sufficient upon which to base an

583
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: investment decision. Neither Bloomberg Finance LP nor any of its

584
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: affiliates makes any representation or warranty as to the accuracy

585
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: or completeness of the information contained in this recording, and

586
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: any liability as a result of this recording is expressly

587
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:47,800
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