1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: I Never Told You production of iHeartRadio. And today we 3 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: are bringing you part two of our interview with doctor 4 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: Ginas Thom, who specializes in all things intersectional feminism in France. 5 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: And before we get into this quick correction, Gina wanted 6 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: you to know we misspoke in the last episode and 7 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: she has not written any books yet. She's written articles 8 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: and academic journals and chapters and edited collections, but no 9 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: books again yet, but still a lot to dig into 10 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: in the works that she has done. If you didn't 11 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: hear part one, go back and listen to that because 12 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: it's really gives so much context and it's really a 13 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: good foundation for what we're going to be talking about 14 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: in this episode where we break down a lot of 15 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: the current issues around women in France right now. So 16 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 1: if you haven't listened to that yet, go listen to 17 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: that and then come back. But if you have listened, 18 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: then let's get into the interview. 19 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 2: Okay, So we're talking wow, Okay, so much. It's going 20 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 2: to take me like the rest of the day to 21 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 2: chew on all of this information online because again, I'm like, 22 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 2: French culture is not my forte is not something that 23 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 2: I've studied specifically language obviously not. As I said, I 24 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 2: need a lot of note cards and help. But with 25 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 2: all of that, there's some big conversations that are happening 26 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 2: around women and feminism in France right now, right, h 27 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 2: can you kind of give us an overview of the 28 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 2: public discourse around some of that. 29 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'll try to do this as efficiently as possible, 30 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 3: and I'm going to leave stuff out, but well, so 31 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 3: I do want to address abortion really quickly. There's been this, 32 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 3: so it wound up in the Constitution after a couple 33 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 3: of attempts, and this is prime. The push for this 34 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 3: primarily came after Roe v. Wade was overturned in the 35 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 3: US and also after there started to be calls on 36 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 3: the far right for limitations on it, and so they 37 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 3: there was this fear. They were like, if Trump can 38 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 3: happen in America, it could happen here. It needs to 39 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 3: go in the Constitution to make it more difficult to 40 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 3: undo the right to abortion. Vaaman did not get in. 41 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 3: The freedom to abortion to have an abortion did get in. 42 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 3: So this isn't nothing, but I want and I want 43 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 3: to tip my hat to a legal scholar named Sabrina. 44 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 3: I don't actually know how to say her name. I've 45 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 3: never done it, said it out loud, but Sabrina Rangin 46 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 3: who explained the different really clearly, the difference between the 47 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 3: freedom and the right. If you have the right to 48 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 3: have something that's a positive entitlement, and not only are 49 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 3: you not going to be punished for it, but you 50 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 3: need to have access to it. If you have the 51 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 3: freedom to do something, you're not going to be punished 52 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 3: for it, but there may not be the concrete protections 53 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 3: for your access to that. And this has become evident 54 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 3: recently one because you've seen despite what are supposed to 55 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 3: be legal protections, you've seen the return of clinic protesters 56 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 3: in France. And you've also seen because the current government 57 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 3: has been starving the public health system in a way 58 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 3: that we've seen We've seen obviously in the US in 59 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 3: what we in so far as we ever had a 60 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 3: public health system. The UK has seen this as well. 61 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 3: The current government Amendumocrants government in France has closed a 62 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 3: lot of hospital beds and they're really understaffed. So there's 63 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 3: a medical desert problem that isn't comparable. Like I live 64 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 3: in Alabama. There are a lot of places where you 65 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 3: cannot get to a hospital within an hour. So distances 66 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 3: in the US mean that medical deserts are bigger and 67 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 3: more serious. But compared to the situation that existed in 68 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 3: France in the past, you're now getting medical deserts. And 69 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 3: so a recent statistic that came out is that one 70 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 3: in four women have to leave their department, which is 71 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:38,679 Speaker 3: the administrative area. So it might be comparable to a county. 72 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 3: I guess, like if we think, but they have to 73 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 3: travel to go get an abortion. Again, the distances in 74 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 3: the US are much bigger. The abortion deserts are much bigger. 75 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 3: But this is a new thing. And also when you 76 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 3: look at the statistics which they do have by economic status, 77 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 3: women who are more financially precarious are more likely to 78 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 3: need abortion care. And so if one in four women 79 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 3: has to travel, that means that a disproportionate number of 80 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 3: financially precarious women have to travel to get abortions. And 81 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 3: while the procedure may be covered by their national health insurance, 82 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 3: that travel is not. So there's that gender based violence, 83 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 3: and I know I brought it up a few times. 84 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 3: I want to put a huge content warning on this 85 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 3: section because it's extremely ugly. So you have a lot 86 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 3: of a pretty comprehensive set of legal protections, but their 87 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 3: enforcement is and the ways in which accusations are taken 88 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 3: seriously is really troublesome. Or not taken seriously, it's really troublesome. 89 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 3: This came up recently in so you know, I'll talk 90 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 3: a little about me too in a minute. But there 91 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 3: was also another sort of social media hashtag that was 92 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 3: started by an activist called anatumas Off called du blue 93 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 3: pen or double punishment, where women who were going to 94 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 3: report sexual assault were being uh basically run through the ringer, 95 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 3: their witness, their testimony was refused. 96 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 4: They were you know. 97 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 3: The very traditional sort of oh what were you wearing? 98 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 3: Were you drinking? But even beyond that were like one 99 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 3: woman called to report a rape and they put her 100 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 3: on hold, but she could hear the policeman saying, oh, 101 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:41,679 Speaker 3: it's that sled again. 102 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 4: Yeah. The numbers of. 103 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 3: Rapes that are reported and then from report to investigated, 104 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 3: and then from investigation to prosecution, you know that I 105 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 3: don't have these data compared to the US, they're not 106 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 3: good in either place. So and they are also real 107 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 3: you know, very strong social norms that govern that as well. 108 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 3: There's a question of feminist side. So what is feminicide. 109 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 3: It means it's a woman who was being killed for 110 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 3: reasons related to her gender, whether that is that's not 111 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 3: exclusively domestic partner violence, because it can also mean like 112 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 3: when an in cell mass shooter shows up, or if 113 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 3: someone is killed for turning someone down for a date, 114 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 3: things like that. This is where it's really hard to 115 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 3: compare the US to any other country because feminicides are 116 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 3: not tracked in the US. So I can tell I 117 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 3: can give you the data from twenty twenty one, but 118 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 3: the numbers don't match up exactly. So in France in 119 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 3: twenty twenty one, there are nine hundred and thirty homicides, 120 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 3: one hundred and twenty two of those are feminis sides. 121 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 3: In the US that year there twenty one thousand, four 122 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 3: sixty two homicides. So for a country that's about five 123 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 3: times has the populations, that's about five times bigger. We 124 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 3: just in general have twenty plus times the number of 125 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 3: homicides because we have guns mostly. 126 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 2: Hell, yeah, that was sarcastic. 127 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 3: Of those twenty one thousand, four and sixty two homicides, 128 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 3: forty nine hundred and seventy were women, and one third 129 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 3: of those are estimated to be domestic partner or intimate 130 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 3: partner violence. But that that's not that doesn't map directly 131 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 3: onto feminicides. So you could look at it as per population, 132 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 3: we have approximately but hard but the numbers aren't the 133 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 3: same twice as many. 134 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 4: Domestic like intimate. 135 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 3: Partner murders as you have feminicides in France. But if 136 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 3: you look at the percentage of murders overall that are feminicides, 137 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 3: it's kind of the same. So if some if there's 138 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 3: a listener who's better at statistics than I am, then 139 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 3: those numbers might be make more sense to you. But 140 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 3: so and France within Western Europe is that's an elevated number, 141 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 3: and there have been attempts to address that. It's a 142 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 3: little bit down. Last year, I think there were ninety 143 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 3: three identified. That doesn't that's not again that's not all 144 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 3: women who are murdered, but women who are specifically murdered 145 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 3: for gender based reasons. So it's down, it's not gone. 146 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 3: So moving on me too. 147 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 5: So I really wish we were recording to like you 148 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 5: should publish this record, and just because our faces and 149 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 5: the reactions we have in the subjects is just like 150 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 5: telling and it's like, so just for your listeners, Gina 151 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:22,559 Speaker 5: just literally covered. 152 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 2: Their face with a giant's side, wouldn't this subject. 153 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 3: So it starts to like it gets sort of immediate 154 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 3: uptake in France when in twenty seventeen, when it's with 155 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 3: the ball really got rolling, and especially because there were 156 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 3: some very high profile people, including as r Argento, who 157 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 3: were part of the Weinstein thing but who are very 158 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:54,599 Speaker 3: visible on France, it got also some really immediate backlash, 159 00:10:55,200 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 3: public backlash from very high profile people and from very 160 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 3: high profile women. There was an open letter signed by 161 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 3: about one hundred prominent women, including recognizable film stars like 162 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 3: Catherine Denov and people who would have in the. 163 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 4: Past called themselves feminists, who said that the right to impose. 164 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 3: Oneself sexually was necessary for sexual freedom. So saying that 165 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 3: me too was damaging to sexual liberation of men and women. 166 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 3: And then you also have this discourse where it's like 167 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 3: seduction is a cultural value, and that's where I wish 168 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 3: you could have seen Annie's face right there, because so 169 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 3: there's this meme. I don't know if you remember the 170 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 3: meme of Andrew Cuomo when he got caught having harassed 171 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 3: a bunch of his and the headline was I'm not 172 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 3: a pervert, I'm just Italian, like because he was like, 173 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 3: I'm Italian, I touch people, and people are like. 174 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 4: Not like that. And this is where there's. 175 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 3: Using the defense of a cultural identity that values certain 176 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 3: kinds of contact, whether it's Andrew Cuomo saying I want 177 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 3: to touch people, or whether it's people saying we're a 178 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 3: very romantic people. Seduction is important to us, and we 179 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 3: don't want to be Americans and be too puritanical about 180 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 3: these things, which seems to get rid of an awful. 181 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 4: Lot of gray area in between. 182 00:12:55,280 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 3: There you so that happened, so that is not uniform 183 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 3: at all, but that is that was a big part 184 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 3: of the public discourse. So you also get the issue 185 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 3: in that the sesa, which are the French oscars. I 186 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 3: can't then the year is escaping me right now, but 187 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 3: they So France continues to be very friendly to people 188 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 3: like Woody Allen, or people who've been accused of sexual misconduct, 189 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 3: or people like Roman Polanski who have been convicted of 190 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 3: sexual misconduct. And even though they're like, well you need 191 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 3: to separate the man from the artist and he won 192 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 3: his film won Best Director or Best Picture. I think 193 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 3: it was Best Picture at the CESAR. 194 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 4: And notably. 195 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 3: The actor Adeleanel, wonderful act. I don't know if you've 196 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 3: seen the movie Portrait of a Lady on Fire. So 197 00:13:55,280 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 3: the blonde woman in that movie, Adelanel, she got up 198 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 3: and walked out yelling shame, which was extremely brave, and 199 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 3: she basically wound up retiring from making movies shortly thereafter. 200 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 3: She's she's a wonderful sort of lesbian feminist, activist, lover 201 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 3: to pieces. She has done a couple of things that 202 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 3: are really amazing. One is that she has done that 203 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 3: She's spoken out about misconduct over and over again. She 204 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 3: brought a lawsuit against a director that she was working 205 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 3: with for not specifically rape, but like sexual misconduct with 206 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 3: a minor between the when she was between the ages 207 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 3: of twelve and fifteen and last week she won, and 208 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 3: it was not clear that that was going to be 209 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 3: the outcome of that. The court case was so ugly. 210 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 3: This sympathy, the amount of sort of public sympathy for 211 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 3: him was gross. And he's just been sentenced to four 212 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 3: years two of them suspended sentence, two of them in 213 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 3: house arrest and five years of not being able to 214 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 3: work with minors, which I don't think is enough. But 215 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 3: the fact that she went out on a limb and 216 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 3: torpedoed her career and she was like a very well regarded, 217 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 3: you know, young talent. 218 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 4: To make the point that it's not okay. 219 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 3: The big me too is children, Like it's not me 220 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 3: saying this needs to be talked about. 221 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 4: In France. 222 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 3: This is a number of public figures. Obviously, that's the 223 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 3: case all over. It happens all over, it happens in 224 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 3: churches all over, in families all over. But the cultural 225 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 3: acceptability of sexualization of children has become a big topic 226 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 3: of conversation, and a couple of things have come up. 227 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 3: One is a book called Consent, which is by a 228 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 3: woman named Vanessa springera where she writes about as a child, 229 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 3: like a very young teenager, she was I mean, she 230 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 3: was raped, but in the context of a year's long 231 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 3: relationship with a very famous author who for decades was 232 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 3: very clear that in his part that he was having 233 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 3: relationships with very young girls and very young boys, and 234 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 3: everyone's like, oh, what a creative man. He's just writing 235 00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 3: these lovely these wonderful books, and then she came out 236 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 3: with this memoir being like no, no me, it was me, 237 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 3: a real person, and this created a you know, a 238 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 3: public reckoning that has not ended. And then you also 239 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 3: have So there's an edited volume that's come out, directed 240 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 3: by Iris Bray and Juliet I don't know risbre very well, JULIETROI. 241 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 3: They are an amazing sort of writer and activist. But 242 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 3: it's the name of the book, is uh, the incest 243 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 3: culture like rape culture, as in a cultural norm that 244 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 3: makes it possible and makes it okay and sometimes romanticized 245 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 3: to abuse children in that way. So again this is 246 00:17:54,600 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 3: not specific to France, but certain cultural norms around it 247 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 3: are not the same. 248 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 4: From culture to culture. 249 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 3: Triuture is also part of a collective volume called Politicizing 250 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 3: Childhood and doesn't have a translation yet. 251 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 4: I hope it does. It's a good set. 252 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 3: Of essays by people from a number of different fields 253 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 3: talking about like what are the ways in which we 254 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 3: have taken children's agency away in various different situations. Okay, 255 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 3: coming to the end of this, I'm sorry. So another 256 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 3: thing that's come up recently in the same context is 257 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 3: that she's al pellicoat case so for those who don't know, 258 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 3: this is an older woman. It was discovered because her 259 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 3: husband got caught upskirting someone at a grocery store and 260 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 3: his phone got taken away that he had been drugging 261 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 3: her and inviting strangers from the internet to come rape 262 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 3: her in their home and filming it for about a decade, 263 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:04,959 Speaker 3: and he went to trial this past summer with forty 264 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:09,479 Speaker 3: nine of the men. There are about thirty men who 265 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 3: have not been identified. 266 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 4: There are so like what to unpack in that one that. 267 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 3: She had been to the doctor many times to be like, 268 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 3: I'm falling asleep, I have memory loss, I have like 269 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 3: kynecological problems. I don't know what's going on. And at 270 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 3: no point did someone propose to her, Hey, I think 271 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 3: something really wrong is happening. The men who we are 272 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 3: now convicted, because they were all convicted with varying degrees 273 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 3: of severity, were from all walks of life, including one 274 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 3: of her neighbors, so professional men, working classmen, all ages, 275 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 3: fathers married. In addition to the thirty that have not 276 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 3: been identified, there have been several who said I sort 277 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 3: of was into this, or the husband offered this to me, 278 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 3: but I said no. Eventually, and none of them reported it. 279 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 3: The doctor who's who supplied the husband with the sedatives 280 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 3: has not been unidentified or punished. And there were pictures 281 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 3: of their daughter on his phone as well, who had 282 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 3: obviously been drugged and it like, and so a lot 283 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 3: of things were not addressed. There were a lot of 284 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 3: ways in which this was a big wake up call 285 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 3: to many people who, for whatever reason, it had not 286 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 3: occurred to them that anybody could be a rapist, even 287 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 3: if they seem like a nice guy, even if they're 288 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 3: so you know that, you know, a good family man, whatever. 289 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 3: So this is a big wake up call. It also 290 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 3: became an opportunity for some of the most regressive attitudes 291 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:11,199 Speaker 3: about consent to be aired in public, both from the 292 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 3: defense lawyers and you could say that's their job, but 293 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 3: also in the press, etc. So you have the defenses 294 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 3: that were you know, I thought she consented and this 295 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 3: was just some kink that they had that You had 296 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 3: the people whose defense was I thought she was dead. 297 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 3: You had the people whose defense was it didn't occur 298 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 3: to me. Once I had the husband's consent, it did 299 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 3: not occur to me that I also needed the woman's consent. 300 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 3: And you also have the defense attorney, because all of 301 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 3: this is filmed and the the videos are being shown 302 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 3: at the trial, and you have the defense attorney saying, well, 303 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:14,199 Speaker 3: he's caressing her, it's not rape. Yeah, it's also gross, 304 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 3: and so you have a giant point of reckoning. But 305 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 3: what the outcome will be is really unclear, and you 306 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 3: have the current I think he's currently the Minister of Justice. 307 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 3: He used to be the Minister of the Interior, But 308 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 3: who says I think that we should put the idea 309 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 3: of consent into the law. That sounds great. The idea 310 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 3: of positive consent in the law is what it's like 311 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 3: in Spain, it's what it's like in Scandinavia. 312 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 4: But there are a couple of rounds with that. 313 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 3: One is he's a credibly accused rapist. The only reason 314 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 3: I didn't go to trial is that the statute of 315 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 3: limitations had run out. His text messages where he was 316 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 3: in charge of social housing and imposing his you know, 317 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 3: favors if you're going to be euphemistic about it, on 318 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 3: women who are trying to get an apartment, those have 319 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 3: been leaked. So I don't think he knows very much 320 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 3: about consent. And the other issue that was also brought 321 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 3: up by Sabrina earn Jen the legal scholar that I 322 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 3: was talking about is that once you have consent that 323 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 3: is written into law in a specific way, then it 324 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 3: becomes a way the question of how to get around 325 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 3: it for defense attorneys, which makes it harder for you 326 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 3: to say I didn't in some. 327 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:49,439 Speaker 4: Ways to say I didn't consent. 328 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 3: I don't know if that I agreed without one hundred percent. 329 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 3: But it is something to keep in mind when thinking 330 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 3: about writing positive consent to laws. And then get the 331 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 3: president who comes out and he's like, oh, Gizelle, you're 332 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 3: such because one the only way we know about this 333 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 3: is that she as a victim, was like, I want 334 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 3: it to be an open trial because I don't. 335 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 4: I don't. I'm not the one who should be a shamed. 336 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 3: They should be a shamed, right, And so you get 337 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 3: the president who's out there being like, oh, Giselle. 338 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 4: You're a real hero. We're with you. 339 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 3: Well, where there were you? Sorry when you were saying 340 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 3: that Jerard Depardieux, who also is facing many charges of 341 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 3: sexual misconduct, is a national treasure. So oh and the 342 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 3: president who was it was recently leaked that he was 343 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 3: using a whole bunch of slurs in uh cabinet meetings, 344 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 3: including calling the feminine female members of the legislature kukut, 345 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 3: which is, by the way, if you're going to use 346 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 3: a derogatory term, nineteenth century prostitute is a weird one. 347 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 2: So he's throwing it back. 348 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 4: That's fine. 349 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 2: Oh there's so much. I didn't I don't know what's 350 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 2: going on, Like I've not heard anything about tip, Like 351 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 2: that's that's news to me. 352 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 3: You just oh, yeah, he's he's kay, the newsflash. 353 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 4: It's really gross. Really so uh. 354 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 3: Then we get the terfism or as they've designated themselves, 355 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 3: and they're because they're like, oh, if feminists are trans friendly, 356 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 3: then we're femalists, so that there are a lot of 357 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 3: people who would identify this way. But there are two 358 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 3: sort of public facing figures. One of them is actually 359 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 3: one of the former member of the group Femine, which 360 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 3: is the news a while ago, like a feminist public 361 00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 3: activism group. And then she was also one of the 362 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 3: founder of the Feminist Collage group that started actually in 363 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 3: response to feminicides, making these sort of guerrilla graffiti collages 364 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 3: that say like denouncing crimes against women. But there was 365 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 3: a split in twenty twenty between this founder, Margaret Stern, 366 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:25,880 Speaker 3: and the group itself because the group was like, yeah, 367 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 3: we're also defending trans women and she was like, well, 368 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 3: then I'm not part of this group anymore. And she 369 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 3: has since so with another woman named Dora Muteau, who 370 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 3: was a sort of public sex education figure, they have 371 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 3: they've come out against the veil. They've they're very anti 372 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 3: sex work. So turfs were for wherever you want to 373 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 3: say this, And they have gotten as they have been 374 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 3: more and more rejected by sort of mainstream feminist discourse, 375 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 3: They've gotten closer and closer to far right, even neo 376 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 3: Nazi groups. Dora Mutou has gone so far as to 377 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 3: really praise Jordan Peterson. Margaret Stern, who was against it, 378 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 3: has apologized to the Catholic Church for supporting gay marriage. 379 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 3: And yet somehow, when there's this debate over conversion therapy 380 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 3: ban in France, who is getting received by a cabinet 381 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 3: member these two, and they are on the edge of 382 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 3: what's also known as femin nationalism, which is people who 383 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 3: identify as feminists but are saying that in order to 384 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 3: protect women, we have to protect them from basically Muslims. 385 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 4: And immigrant men. 386 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 2: What. 387 00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, they claim to be universalist feminists, so there's like 388 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 3: the same thing is good for all women. That women 389 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 3: are most threatened by Islam and in general non European immigration. 390 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 3: This is represented publicly by the Nemesis collective that has 391 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 3: done a lot of acts of vandalism. They've done false 392 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 3: flag acts where they were like wearing a hitche ab 393 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 3: or burka and being like, yeah, we were Islamisists, we 394 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 3: want Sharia in France. 395 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 4: Yeah. And they are also very. 396 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 3: Closely related to some neo Nazi violent extremist groups in France. 397 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 3: They really took ownership they among with other national righting 398 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 3: nationalist groups. 399 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 4: So a very tragic thing happened. 400 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 3: A young woman named Philipino nod Carnon was killed last 401 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 3: fall by someone who had been given a deportation order. 402 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 3: This is a similar situation to the Lake and Riley 403 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 3: case and the US, where it's it is a tragedy 404 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 3: and the person who did it committed a crime. But 405 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 3: where this is there is a hyper visibilization of crimes 406 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 3: committed against white women by immigrants, and that is using 407 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 3: as an excuse to do damage to do process for 408 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 3: all immigrants and then Also, in January twenty third, the 409 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 3: current Minister of the Interior Bruno was confronted with a 410 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 3: member of Nemesis and was like, I want to congratulate 411 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 3: this young woman for the uh uh for her activism. 412 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 3: And then later he walked that back because he's like, oh, no, 413 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 3: I'm sorry, and it's like, well so they So those 414 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 3: are kind of some of the hot button issues going 415 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 3: on right now. I know that wasn't a real uh 416 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 3: let's put it this way, not a joyful note to 417 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 3: end on. 418 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 1: Well, you know that's that's. 419 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 2: What we are over here right right now? 420 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: Do you have just a brief note about something joyful 421 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:23,719 Speaker 1: you are excited about? 422 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 3: So I gotta say, the young queer people are awesome. 423 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 3: But the amount of like collaboration and public scholarship and 424 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 3: art production that I see from them is so heartwarming 425 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 3: and like I don't want to be like inspirational in that, like, 426 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 3: but no, it really inspired me to go do stuff. 427 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 4: And I like, really. 428 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 3: Interesting writing projects are projects collaborations. I mean like even 429 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:11,479 Speaker 3: the stensil things like that and the way, and so 430 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 3: that's something that I'm I'm very excited about. I am 431 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 3: concerned about our future. I'm concerned about their future, concerned 432 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 3: about a lot of things. But that does make me, 433 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 3: that does make me very happy to see it. 434 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that's I think that's about right. 435 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: I think that's how a lot of us feel. 436 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 2: Well. 437 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: Thank you so much Gina for coming on. Please come back, 438 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: because we gave you these huge broad questions. You nailed it, 439 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: but we would love to dig in more. But in 440 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: the meantime, where can the good listeners find you? 441 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 3: So I am not on any public facing socials because 442 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 3: that's very badly. But if you want to keep up 443 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 3: with any of my writing, a bunch of it is 444 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 3: an open access So if you google genis Tom you'll 445 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 3: find my professional page. A bunch of the articles that 446 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 3: I've written are linked there. I've translated a really cool 447 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 3: science fiction novel that's already out called Medlito's Dreams. I 448 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 3: don't get any more money from that, but I also 449 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 3: think it's awesome. And then there's another novel that's more 450 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 3: historical fiction by the same author that's coming out in 451 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 3: October that I would encourage everybody to check out. That's 452 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 3: a it's called The Inner Harbor and it takes place 453 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 3: right before the handoff of Macau from Portugal to China 454 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 3: in the late nineties. 455 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: Yes, I'm very intrigued by all of this. Thank you 456 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: so much for being here, listeners, go check that stuff out. 457 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: And this brings us to the end of our interview 458 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: with Gina, who was such a delight, so informative, it's 459 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: just so knowledgeable. We had so many questions we wanted 460 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: to ask after the interview was over. So hopefully Gina 461 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: will come back in the future because there, Yeah, there 462 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: was a lot more we wanted to get to, right, 463 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: We covered a lot of ground, that's for sure. 464 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 5: For sure. 465 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 4: Yes. 466 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: In the meantime, listeners, if you would like to contact us, 467 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: you can. You can email us at Hello at stuff 468 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: Onenever Told You dot com. You can find us on 469 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: blue Sky at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and 470 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: TikTok at stuff I've Never Told You. We're also on YouTube. 471 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: We have a tea public store, and we have a 472 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks 473 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: us always start a super producer, Christenior executive producer and 474 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: your contributor Joey, Thank you and thanks to you for listening. 475 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: Stuff I Never Told You is production by Heart Radio 476 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: for podcasts or my heart Radio. You can check out 477 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: the heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or Regula sen to 478 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.