Speaker 1: Some businesses, like the tech company Automatic, are getting rid
Speaker 1: of offices completely, letting all employees work from wherever they want. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: IBM just told tens of thousands of workers they can't
Speaker 1: work from home anymore at all. Which approach is the
Speaker 1: future of work? This is game plan. Hi. I'm Rebecca
Speaker 1: Greenfield and I'm Francesco Levi, and this week we are
Speaker 1: talking about working from home or remote working or telecommuting,
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it. The phenomenon of being
Speaker 1: at work without being actually at work, the thing where
Speaker 1: you send everyone an email with the subject line w
Speaker 1: f H. Yes, there's a fun jargon. Love it. Working
Speaker 1: from home is on the rise. The Society of Human
Speaker 1: Resource Management does an annual survey and they found that
Speaker 1: sixty of employers allow some population of their employees to
Speaker 1: work remotely at least some of the time. And that's
Speaker 1: up from which is just like a huge jump and
Speaker 1: like a change in the way we work. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: talk about the knowledge economy, or like these jobs where
Speaker 1: the tools that you need to do your job are
Speaker 1: not necessarily located in one specific physical place. Basically, if
Speaker 1: you have a computer with word processing software, you can
Speaker 1: get it done from everywhere, and this is one of
Speaker 1: those phenomena that is actually technology enabled. It has changed
Speaker 1: over time significantly. There was definitely a point in history
Speaker 1: where nobody worked from home because the typewriters were at
Speaker 1: the office building. You had to go there to get
Speaker 1: to them. Yeah, we remember this. Yeah, the rotary phone
Speaker 1: from the typewriters, they were all the rage. But yeah,
Speaker 1: now because of things like Slack, which is a chat
Speaker 1: platform or whatever your office uses, you can be in
Speaker 1: constant communication. A lot of the meetings are happening in
Speaker 1: places like that. Anyway, you can do a lot of
Speaker 1: your job using software that you can load up on
Speaker 1: any computer, like WiFi is better than it used to be.
Speaker 1: Just little things like that make it really similar to
Speaker 1: being inside the office. And yet we see companies like IBM,
Speaker 1: which happened to be a pioneer of remote work. They've
Speaker 1: been doing this for fifteen years. They are now saying no,
Speaker 1: no more, and they're telling employees they have to either
Speaker 1: come back to one of their offices or find a
Speaker 1: new job, which is very aggressive. Yeah, as with anything,
Speaker 1: there are going to be downsides to working from home, right,
Speaker 1: and once the pendulum swung really far in the direction
Speaker 1: of anybody can work from anywhere. We started seeing a
Speaker 1: lot of reasons why it actually wasn't that great to
Speaker 1: not be around your colleagues. Yeah, IBM is doing this
Speaker 1: in the midst of a bit of a crisis. They've
Speaker 1: seen twenty consecutive quarters of falling revenue. When Yahoo was
Speaker 1: struggling financially, they made a similar move, And I think
Speaker 1: it's because they do see some benefits to workers being
Speaker 1: in the same place and the work being better than
Speaker 1: when you're kind of siloed in your home office or
Speaker 1: coworking space. It almost sounds like the angry parent, like
Speaker 1: calling everybody out of their bedrooms into the living room
Speaker 1: for a family talk. You can't be on your own anymore.
Speaker 1: But I definitely experienced that thing where you're emailing back
Speaker 1: and forth with somebody and it gets too complicated to
Speaker 1: try and communicate whatever you got to communicate, and you
Speaker 1: just have to get up and walk over to their desk.
Speaker 1: Little interactions like that get lost when you're working from home. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or some meetings that happen in person do have some
Speaker 1: sort of magic to them that you can't recreate over
Speaker 1: video conference. Video conference just has this like wizard of
Speaker 1: oz feel when you're talking on the speaker phone. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when you're doing a video conference, everybody's faces in a
Speaker 1: little box, or you're talking to a bunch of people
Speaker 1: in a conference room while you're at your home office
Speaker 1: trying to make it look legit, and it feels like
Speaker 1: everything you say has to be video conference worthy, and
Speaker 1: so everything you say has this weight to it, Whereas
Speaker 1: if you're having an informal conversation in the office, you
Speaker 1: can discover a lot of little things that wouldn't come
Speaker 1: up normally because of the formal atmosphere of a meeting.
Speaker 1: So I get why IBM thinks there are benefits to
Speaker 1: having people in the office. I do think it's extreme
Speaker 1: to say that nobody can ever do it. Ever, it
Speaker 1: is really really nice to have the option to work
Speaker 1: from home sometimes, and flexibility and where you work is
Speaker 1: something that is really helpful, especially for working women in particular.
Speaker 1: There have been researchers who argue that flexibility and working
Speaker 1: from home can actually close the pay gap because a
Speaker 1: lot of the payout comes from working parents and working
Speaker 1: moms specifically, And if you can work from home a
Speaker 1: day or two a week, or leave the office early
Speaker 1: and signed back on later, then you don't have to
Speaker 1: kind of disrupt your entire work life to deal with
Speaker 1: your child care. Yeah, we and we see this in
Speaker 1: the office. It tends to happen kind of informally, you know.
Speaker 1: I get emails all the time from people who have
Speaker 1: to leave for two hours for a doctor's appointment, or
Speaker 1: have to go to their kids student teacher conference and
Speaker 1: then are going to spend the rest of their day
Speaker 1: working from home in the after. And there's so many
Speaker 1: offices like this where even if it isn't formalized, everybody
Speaker 1: kind of understands that to make life work, you have
Speaker 1: to be a little flexible about where you're doing your
Speaker 1: work from. That's right. People are finding ways to use
Speaker 1: remote work to be flexible, even if it's not formally
Speaker 1: part of the policy of the workplace. And that's something
Speaker 1: our guests wrote about in a column for The Wall
Speaker 1: Street Journal. He argues that remote work isn't going anywhere,
Speaker 1: and companies can ignore it at their peril. Our guest
Speaker 1: today is Christopher MEM's. He's a technology columnist at The
Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal, and he has also worked remotely for
Speaker 1: a decade of his career. Thanks for coming on thanks
Speaker 1: for having me. So when we're seeing a giant like
Speaker 1: IBM pull away from remote work, you're arguing that the
Speaker 1: rise of working from home is inevitable. Why is that? Oh?
Speaker 1: So many reasons. The first thing to know is just
Speaker 1: that it is continuing to expand. So if you look
Speaker 1: at numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics or Gallop
Speaker 1: tracks this, they ask questions related to this periodically. It's
Speaker 1: going up every year. We're in the range I think
Speaker 1: now for folks who have ever worked remotely in the
Speaker 1: past year according to Gallup. And I think that the
Speaker 1: main reason that it's expanding is that everybody likes it
Speaker 1: a lot. It increases employee satisfaction. I think it also
Speaker 1: just reflects the fact that a lot of us, you know,
Speaker 1: if we're knowledge workers, especially if we're professionals, were kind
Speaker 1: of on the clock all the time anyway, So remote
Speaker 1: work is just an extension of all of us having
Speaker 1: to check email on nights and weekends anyway. Plus, some
Speaker 1: companies do it very deliberately, not just for the lifestyle reasons,
Speaker 1: but also because they figure they can save themselves money
Speaker 1: on offices and office space. And some companies do it
Speaker 1: because of the talent crunch. So imagine you're trying to
Speaker 1: hire coders, you know, what are the odds that you
Speaker 1: can find all of them within you know, driving distance
Speaker 1: of your Chicago headquarters or wherever you are. So there's
Speaker 1: tons of job functions like that where there's a mismatch
Speaker 1: between how many people are available to do a job
Speaker 1: and the demand for that job, and getting people to
Speaker 1: work remotely is a great way to solve that because
Speaker 1: your talent pool becomes the whole world at that point.
Speaker 1: So that helps explain the rising trend of working from home.
Speaker 1: Why are companies like IBM getting sort of skittish about it? Like,
Speaker 1: what are some of the drawbacks of remote work? So
Speaker 1: in my conversations with IBM, they said that there are
Speaker 1: certain roles that just don't lend themselves to remote work,
Speaker 1: and others have said this too, although startups that are
Speaker 1: committed to remote work disagree. So both IBM and Dell,
Speaker 1: which is another company that's big on remote work, has
Speaker 1: said that roles like research and development don't work remotely.
Speaker 1: You need people in the same office. I mean that
Speaker 1: kind of makes sense if you're doing some really hardcore thing.
Speaker 1: Imagine doing like scientific research or something. You've all kind
Speaker 1: of got to be in the same place at the
Speaker 1: same time. There's probably equipment there that you just can't
Speaker 1: use on your laptop. So in those kinds of roles,
Speaker 1: remote work just might not be appropriate. In your piece,
Speaker 1: you talk about a completely remote office, or you mentioned
Speaker 1: startups that are committed to being remote. Is that really tenable?
Speaker 1: Is that the future of where we're going with remote work,
Speaker 1: everybody just not being in an office at all. So
Speaker 1: one of the things that's interesting about these all remote
Speaker 1: startups is that I think that most of them started
Speaker 1: their remote work programs first and sort of then figured out,
Speaker 1: you know, how are we going to make this work?
Speaker 1: Like they basically came at it with the idea that
Speaker 1: this is how we want to live and this is
Speaker 1: the kind of company we want to build. So a
Speaker 1: great example is base Camp. They were kind of slacked
Speaker 1: before slack existed, and they're a small company in Chicago.
Speaker 1: You know, they're spread across I don't know how many
Speaker 1: times zones similarly automatic, which makes WordPress dot com. That's
Speaker 1: a company with more than five and fifty workers and
Speaker 1: they're definitely making it work. But that is a just
Speaker 1: an incredibly strong commitment from them, So they use slack
Speaker 1: to communicate, they use these internal blogs to communicate asynchronously,
Speaker 1: as they call it. And they have to hire people
Speaker 1: who will fit into that culture, who can communicate in
Speaker 1: those mediums, and who are comfortable working remotely and communicating
Speaker 1: in that way. So there are companies for which, you know,
Speaker 1: they take the extreme stance like we're going to be
Speaker 1: totally remote, but that is the exception. Most companies, even
Speaker 1: the ones that are all in on this, are kind
Speaker 1: of hybrid. And there's a bunch of other examples to
Speaker 1: that are hybrid besides Dell and IBM, like you know
Speaker 1: their insurance companies that do that. Bank of America has
Speaker 1: a pretty big commitment to it. Um There's actually this
Speaker 1: whole list from a company called flex Jobs, and every
Speaker 1: year they rate the top one companies for remote work.
Speaker 1: There's a bunch of surprises on there. It's like the
Speaker 1: Department of Commerce and you know, various healthcare companies. So
Speaker 1: there are a few companies where everyone works remotely, and
Speaker 1: then there are companies where no one's allowed to work remotely.
Speaker 1: But I think in most cases it's a little bit
Speaker 1: of a mix. Is that hybrid office A really hard
Speaker 1: balance to strike. Based on my own experience, that's a
Speaker 1: really hard balance to strike. And you know, I talked
Speaker 1: to Jason Freed, who is the CEO of base Camp,
Speaker 1: which you know he's he's thought a lot about this,
Speaker 1: Like he actually gives workshops every month to teach other
Speaker 1: companies how to um run their company remotely. And his
Speaker 1: feeling is that whatever the majority of your employees are
Speaker 1: either remote or you know, in an office together, that's
Speaker 1: going to be the dominant culture at your company. And
Speaker 1: so if the majority of your employees are in an office,
Speaker 1: that's going to be how people communicate. That's where all
Speaker 1: the meetings and brainstorms happen, and they don't feel of
Speaker 1: an obligation to include the remote workers, and they get
Speaker 1: shut out of decisions and all kinds of important other stuff.
Speaker 1: I think that it's probably possible for companies to be
Speaker 1: inclusive of remote workers, even if the majority of their
Speaker 1: workers aren't remote, but it just takes a real commitment.
Speaker 1: I think everyone has to be super conscious of the
Speaker 1: fact that, you know, if you hold a meeting and
Speaker 1: you know, we've all been in this position. You know,
Speaker 1: there's a dozen people in the room and there's the
Speaker 1: two people who call in on the phone or maybe
Speaker 1: even you know, over Skype or Google hang out. But
Speaker 1: those people are missing out on like of what's happening
Speaker 1: in that meeting, and you know, nine of the value
Speaker 1: of that meeting. So unless people are really forced to
Speaker 1: communicate through these online tools, whether they're in the office
Speaker 1: or remote, then the remote workers are going to be
Speaker 1: left out. Yeah, that seems to be why IBM is
Speaker 1: moving away from their remote work policy. It's just not
Speaker 1: the way they think that they can get the most
Speaker 1: out of their workers. But as you mentioned, people like it,
Speaker 1: and I imagine IBM worker is our used to it.
Speaker 1: So what can offices do to make working from home
Speaker 1: more realistic for more workers? So to make working from
Speaker 1: home more realistic for more workers, offices need to have
Speaker 1: the right processes in place for people who are working
Speaker 1: remotely wherever they're working from, whether it's home or a
Speaker 1: client's office or you know, a Starbucks or the field
Speaker 1: or whatever it is. And so you know, you can't
Speaker 1: have your weekly all hands meeting at the office and
Speaker 1: expect remote workers to be bought into that, Like it's
Speaker 1: got to happen over your video conferencing system or you know,
Speaker 1: some companies will just get rid of meetings altogether. They
Speaker 1: see that as a side benefit of having people work remotely,
Speaker 1: and they'll make those kinds of decisions through these asynchronous
Speaker 1: communications systems, which are like internal blogs or you know,
Speaker 1: some kind of internet or some kind of system that
Speaker 1: isn't just slack basically, so that there's some persistence and
Speaker 1: and everybody can catch up and see what's going on
Speaker 1: and weigh in. What if companies told you about how
Speaker 1: they save costs. I know that in theory, you're saving
Speaker 1: costs on overhead if people aren't you know, coming in
Speaker 1: and using equipment. But then you described automatic office as
Speaker 1: being this great, big, beautiful space that nobody was using.
Speaker 1: So what are you hearing about how how companies are
Speaker 1: making decisions around saving and helping people work in a
Speaker 1: way that fits them. So one thing that's been big
Speaker 1: for a while is this whole idea of getting employees
Speaker 1: to hot desk. And you know, imagine that you're paying
Speaker 1: a ton of money for you know, prime real estate
Speaker 1: in downtown Manhattan and you want to just use less
Speaker 1: of that. So one thing you can do is get
Speaker 1: employees to give up on the idea that they have
Speaker 1: their particular desk, and if you know that people are
Speaker 1: only going to be around three days of the week,
Speaker 1: you know, I have people rotate through whatever existing space
Speaker 1: you have, So it's it's simply a matter of saving
Speaker 1: on real estate on the square footage that you're paying for.
Speaker 1: Is there anything lost by giving up your own customized
Speaker 1: space that's just yours at work? I think there probably is.
Speaker 1: You know, humans are were creatures of habit and we
Speaker 1: can be territorial. And there are horror stories from when
Speaker 1: hot hot desking was first invented about like there was
Speaker 1: a particular ad agency where they did it and they
Speaker 1: got rid of all the cubicles and they're like, everyone's
Speaker 1: just gonna work around these tables, and people began to
Speaker 1: kind of like partition them with their junk or their
Speaker 1: books or whatever and and kind of like wall them off,
Speaker 1: and there were like these little battles about Like well,
Speaker 1: that's where I usually said, I think all those are
Speaker 1: are growing pains. But it does raise the point that
Speaker 1: that if you couldn't go all in on remote or
Speaker 1: some kind of hybrid model, there's a lot of moving parts.
Speaker 1: It's not just like oh, now we're all using you know,
Speaker 1: Zoom or some other video conferencing system like now, it's
Speaker 1: like the whole geography of your office is different as well,
Speaker 1: and and Dell has been dealing with that. So Dell
Speaker 1: has more than a hundred thousand employees, and as they've
Speaker 1: gotten more and more of them to work remotely, they've
Speaker 1: been reconfiguring their office space and get getting rid of
Speaker 1: traditional desks and cubicles. And to me, it seems there
Speaker 1: is some benefit to being with people sometimes. I know
Speaker 1: that I like some of our in person meetings that
Speaker 1: we have here. Um, and you've been working remotely for
Speaker 1: most of your professional life, what are your personal experiences,
Speaker 1: both positive and negative. Yeah, I think that it is
Speaker 1: a mistake to imagine that that human psychology is compatible
Speaker 1: with just ruining everybody on their own little island. Even
Speaker 1: the companies that are pure remote work will get everybody
Speaker 1: together at least a couple of times a year, and
Speaker 1: then people will sometimes travel more often for other types
Speaker 1: of meetings. Personally, you know, I have tried every possible
Speaker 1: configuration of remote and hybrid work, and I found that
Speaker 1: I absolutely need a place that I can go that's
Speaker 1: just like okay, if I if I just need to work,
Speaker 1: and I need to you know, get things done, and
Speaker 1: I and I have a space that's completely devoted to that.
Speaker 1: I have to have that, and I also have to
Speaker 1: be able to go to a place where it's not
Speaker 1: just you know, me staring at four walls, and that
Speaker 1: I think just shows kind of the complexities of this.
Speaker 1: Like a lot of people who work remotely will still
Speaker 1: sometimes go to an office even if it's not with
Speaker 1: their coworkers, and they're going to coworking spaces or they
Speaker 1: may cowork with some subset of their coworkers. And I
Speaker 1: think this is one of the reasons that you're seeing
Speaker 1: this rise of like all these coworking spaces and we work,
Speaker 1: you know, there's even these things that are like there
Speaker 1: are startups that where you can, you know, rent a
Speaker 1: conference room for an hour, or or rent a conference
Speaker 1: room that has a couch that you can lie down
Speaker 1: on and can nap in for an hour because you're
Speaker 1: traveling to client meetings or whatever. So with that flexibility
Speaker 1: come the need to flexibly be in the presence of others.
Speaker 1: And and so for me, what that looks like is, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's plenty of time that I'm just working on my
Speaker 1: own because that's the nature of being uh, you know,
Speaker 1: a writer and doing lots of phone interviews, which is
Speaker 1: mostly what I do. But you know, I also have
Speaker 1: a coworking space where I work alongside people who are
Speaker 1: doing things that are completely unrelated to what I do.
Speaker 1: But that's really helpful for me psychologically and keeps me focused. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've definitely heard of companies where they will pay for
Speaker 1: their workers coworking spaces when they're remote workers. Um, well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on and talking to
Speaker 1: us about remote work. Yeah, thanks for having me. Chris
Speaker 1: gets at one problem that remote work doesn't really solve,
Speaker 1: which is that people still seem to want a space
Speaker 1: that feels like a workspace. They want it personalized. Even
Speaker 1: when Chris works from home, he finds a way to
Speaker 1: be around other people and be in a spot that
Speaker 1: feels like a real workspace. All that stuff says to
Speaker 1: me that there are a lot of things about the
Speaker 1: traditional office that we don't necessarily want to lose, like
Speaker 1: for people to do their work well, it's nice to
Speaker 1: have those things. I think that Chris's situation shows that
Speaker 1: you can have some elements of the office that people like,
Speaker 1: like being around other humans without necessarily going as far
Speaker 1: as IBM did and calling everyone back to the physical headquarters,
Speaker 1: Like there is a more progressive way to get some
Speaker 1: of the things that IBM wants while still having some
Speaker 1: of the flexibility. Like I do fall on the same
Speaker 1: end of the spectrum as IBM, where I do think
Speaker 1: there are bottom line benefits to being in the same
Speaker 1: office as your coworkers, and I like being around people.
Speaker 1: Then again, there is something really nice about just having
Speaker 1: the option of working from home sometimes when something comes
Speaker 1: up or if you need to travel for some reason.
Speaker 1: I know those are not like the most important reasons
Speaker 1: to need to work from home, but just having it
Speaker 1: there is like an employee park. Yeah, I feel exactly
Speaker 1: the same way. And I also think that Chris and
Speaker 1: his article mentioned that there are certain types of jobs
Speaker 1: that lend themselves to working from home and are working remotely,
Speaker 1: and some that don't. And I feel like there are
Speaker 1: certain aspects of my job that work for working from
Speaker 1: home and some that don't. There are most days I
Speaker 1: feel the same way as you, like I kind of
Speaker 1: need to be around my colleagues in order to collaborate
Speaker 1: and quickly ask someone a question without thinking about it
Speaker 1: too much and overhear what's going on so that I
Speaker 1: have a sense of, you know, the stories that are
Speaker 1: being published the next day. But then there's some days
Speaker 1: where I have to dig into a really big project
Speaker 1: and eliminating distraction is my main goal. And for that
Speaker 1: I could be at my kitchen table, hunched over a laptop,
Speaker 1: you know, with some headphones in. So to me, having
Speaker 1: the option is really important. Yeah, and I think that's
Speaker 1: a big thing for workers. They like to feel like
Speaker 1: they can make adult choices that are good for them
Speaker 1: and the things that they need to do. Yeah, sometimes
Speaker 1: you gotta go to the bank exactly. Listeners, what do
Speaker 1: you guys think about working from home? How does it
Speaker 1: work for your life and your job? Let us know
Speaker 1: you can tweet at us or leave us a voicemail
Speaker 1: at two and two six on seven zero one six six.
Speaker 1: And now it's time for half big Takes, Happy fake takes. Francesca,
Speaker 1: what is your super strong opinion that you would like
Speaker 1: to share with the world today. I have a very
Speaker 1: on topic half big take. It's about working remotely. I
Speaker 1: have a little strategy that makes my home into an
Speaker 1: office because I don't have a personal home office me
Speaker 1: either in New York City, right, Yeah, you may be
Speaker 1: surprised to learn I don't live in a sprawling mansion.
Speaker 1: Um so if I work from home, I'm like sitting
Speaker 1: at the kitchen table. I work on a laptop that
Speaker 1: has a little track pad. Um, My workspace is very contained.
Speaker 1: In order to make working from home fuel legit, I
Speaker 1: use a mouse only when I'm working from home. So
Speaker 1: if I'm on my laptop for some other reason at home,
Speaker 1: I just use the track pad. But the mouse it
Speaker 1: triggers some Pavlovian thing that gets me into like office mode.
Speaker 1: I totally get that. The reason I don't like the
Speaker 1: mouse is exactly the reason you use it, which is like, oh,
Speaker 1: but how do you use that on the couch? Which
Speaker 1: is yeah, that's actually I was thinking it was like
Speaker 1: some deep psychological thing, but it's actually that's probably all
Speaker 1: it is that forces you to sit at the table. No, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean the only time I use the mouse is
Speaker 1: at work. I think the Pavlovian thing is real. Becca,
Speaker 1: what is your somewhat fleshed out but not worthy of
Speaker 1: an article thought. This is a very strong belief I have,
Speaker 1: but I couldn't really say why so, I think it's
Speaker 1: a pretty good half picktke um. It's that when drinking drinks,
Speaker 1: and I'm a group I'm a strong believer in saying
Speaker 1: cheers before you drink. I think the reason I like
Speaker 1: it is that you have to wait for everybody to
Speaker 1: have a drink, and it's just kind of like pressing
Speaker 1: play on the night. Is it the clinking that's important
Speaker 1: or is it the word cheers? I think it's either
Speaker 1: or just kind of the action of like and now
Speaker 1: we're beginning and like we're doing this together. Really, I
Speaker 1: just really it's hard for me not to do it.
Speaker 1: It irritates me. And when it doesn't happen. Yeah, are
Speaker 1: you one of those people that scoolds people when they
Speaker 1: don't do it or when they don't look people in there?
Speaker 1: I don't care about that. I thing I know that
Speaker 1: I'm not. I mean, no, I get it completely. I
Speaker 1: I'm I'm very into ceremony and rituals and I'm also
Speaker 1: a firm believer in the don't start eating until everybody
Speaker 1: has their food. And it really interesting thing. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think maybe it's because it's just manners. We just have manners,
Speaker 1: have manners. We have good manners here at game Plan
Speaker 1: and this has been Happy Takes, Halake Takes. Thanks for
Speaker 1: listening to another episode of game Plan. You can find
Speaker 1: me on Twitter at rs Greenfield and I'm at Francesco today.
Speaker 1: You can tweet us with your happy takes or anything
Speaker 1: else that's on your mind. You can also call and
Speaker 1: leave us a voicemail at two one to six one
Speaker 1: seven zero one six. If you like the show, head
Speaker 1: on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and
Speaker 1: rate and review. We love hearing from you and it
Speaker 1: helps people discover our show. And if you get lonely
Speaker 1: and miss hearing from us during the week, you can
Speaker 1: sign up for our newsletter and get a little extra
Speaker 1: Becca and Francesca insight in your life. Just go to
Speaker 1: bloomberg dot com slash Newsletters. This show was produced by
Speaker 1: Liz Smith and Magnus Hendrickson. The head of podcast is
Speaker 1: Alec McCabe and we'll see you next week. We will
Speaker 1: oh True Cheers is for one place only. Should I
Speaker 1: say that? A bar in Boston