WEBVTT - Is Working From Home Too Good to Be True? 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.360 Some businesses, like the tech company Automatic, are getting rid 0:00:03.360 --> 0:00:08.600 of offices completely, letting all employees work from wherever they want. Meanwhile, 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:11.959 IBM just told tens of thousands of workers they can't 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:15.400 work from home anymore at all. Which approach is the 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:29.360 future of work? This is game plan. Hi. I'm Rebecca 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:32.239 Greenfield and I'm Francesco Levi, and this week we are 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:37.279 talking about working from home or remote working or telecommuting, 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:40.760 whatever you want to call it. The phenomenon of being 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:43.960 at work without being actually at work, the thing where 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:46.400 you send everyone an email with the subject line w 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.600 f H. Yes, there's a fun jargon. Love it. Working 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:52.880 from home is on the rise. The Society of Human 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:55.959 Resource Management does an annual survey and they found that 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:59.840 sixty of employers allow some population of their employees to 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:02.680 work remotely at least some of the time. And that's 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:07.120 up from which is just like a huge jump and 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:09.440 like a change in the way we work. Yeah, we 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:12.480 talk about the knowledge economy, or like these jobs where 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:14.960 the tools that you need to do your job are 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:18.480 not necessarily located in one specific physical place. Basically, if 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:20.760 you have a computer with word processing software, you can 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:22.520 get it done from everywhere, and this is one of 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:27.240 those phenomena that is actually technology enabled. It has changed 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:30.319 over time significantly. There was definitely a point in history 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:33.920 where nobody worked from home because the typewriters were at 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:35.800 the office building. You had to go there to get 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:39.280 to them. Yeah, we remember this. Yeah, the rotary phone 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:41.880 from the typewriters, they were all the rage. But yeah, 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:44.319 now because of things like Slack, which is a chat 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:47.200 platform or whatever your office uses, you can be in 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.680 constant communication. A lot of the meetings are happening in 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:54.200 places like that. Anyway, you can do a lot of 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:57.320 your job using software that you can load up on 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:00.560 any computer, like WiFi is better than it used to be. 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:03.880 Just little things like that make it really similar to 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:09.079 being inside the office. And yet we see companies like IBM, 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:11.519 which happened to be a pioneer of remote work. They've 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:15.440 been doing this for fifteen years. They are now saying no, 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.080 no more, and they're telling employees they have to either 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:20.120 come back to one of their offices or find a 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:23.480 new job, which is very aggressive. Yeah, as with anything, 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:26.560 there are going to be downsides to working from home, right, 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:29.000 and once the pendulum swung really far in the direction 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:32.560 of anybody can work from anywhere. We started seeing a 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:34.880 lot of reasons why it actually wasn't that great to 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:37.720 not be around your colleagues. Yeah, IBM is doing this 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:39.960 in the midst of a bit of a crisis. They've 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:43.639 seen twenty consecutive quarters of falling revenue. When Yahoo was 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:46.880 struggling financially, they made a similar move, And I think 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:51.040 it's because they do see some benefits to workers being 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:53.679 in the same place and the work being better than 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.639 when you're kind of siloed in your home office or 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:59.560 coworking space. It almost sounds like the angry parent, like 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:01.840 calling everybody out of their bedrooms into the living room 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:05.800 for a family talk. You can't be on your own anymore. 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.720 But I definitely experienced that thing where you're emailing back 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:12.079 and forth with somebody and it gets too complicated to 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:14.760 try and communicate whatever you got to communicate, and you 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:16.440 just have to get up and walk over to their desk. 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:20.200 Little interactions like that get lost when you're working from home. Yeah, 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.360 or some meetings that happen in person do have some 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:26.679 sort of magic to them that you can't recreate over 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.600 video conference. Video conference just has this like wizard of 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:34.000 oz feel when you're talking on the speaker phone. Yeah, 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:36.280 when you're doing a video conference, everybody's faces in a 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:39.080 little box, or you're talking to a bunch of people 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.440 in a conference room while you're at your home office 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:44.360 trying to make it look legit, and it feels like 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:48.080 everything you say has to be video conference worthy, and 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:50.960 so everything you say has this weight to it, Whereas 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:53.880 if you're having an informal conversation in the office, you 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:57.160 can discover a lot of little things that wouldn't come 0:03:57.240 --> 0:03:59.960 up normally because of the formal atmosphere of a meeting. 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:03.480 So I get why IBM thinks there are benefits to 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:06.840 having people in the office. I do think it's extreme 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:10.200 to say that nobody can ever do it. Ever, it 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:12.960 is really really nice to have the option to work 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:17.039 from home sometimes, and flexibility and where you work is 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:21.800 something that is really helpful, especially for working women in particular. 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:26.880 There have been researchers who argue that flexibility and working 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:30.359 from home can actually close the pay gap because a 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:32.520 lot of the payout comes from working parents and working 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:34.920 moms specifically, And if you can work from home a 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:37.640 day or two a week, or leave the office early 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.000 and signed back on later, then you don't have to 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:43.640 kind of disrupt your entire work life to deal with 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:46.240 your child care. Yeah, we and we see this in 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.720 the office. It tends to happen kind of informally, you know. 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:51.960 I get emails all the time from people who have 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:54.240 to leave for two hours for a doctor's appointment, or 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:57.320 have to go to their kids student teacher conference and 0:04:57.360 --> 0:04:58.960 then are going to spend the rest of their day 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:01.400 working from home in the after. And there's so many 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:04.520 offices like this where even if it isn't formalized, everybody 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:06.719 kind of understands that to make life work, you have 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:08.720 to be a little flexible about where you're doing your 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:13.440 work from. That's right. People are finding ways to use 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.880 remote work to be flexible, even if it's not formally 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:20.600 part of the policy of the workplace. And that's something 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:22.320 our guests wrote about in a column for The Wall 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:25.960 Street Journal. He argues that remote work isn't going anywhere, 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:32.960 and companies can ignore it at their peril. Our guest 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:35.960 today is Christopher MEM's. He's a technology columnist at The 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:38.400 Wall Street Journal, and he has also worked remotely for 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.920 a decade of his career. Thanks for coming on thanks 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.159 for having me. So when we're seeing a giant like 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:49.719 IBM pull away from remote work, you're arguing that the 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:53.240 rise of working from home is inevitable. Why is that? Oh? 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:55.840 So many reasons. The first thing to know is just 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:58.600 that it is continuing to expand. So if you look 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.839 at numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics or Gallop 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:05.680 tracks this, they ask questions related to this periodically. It's 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:09.240 going up every year. We're in the range I think 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:13.320 now for folks who have ever worked remotely in the 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:17.000 past year according to Gallup. And I think that the 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:20.960 main reason that it's expanding is that everybody likes it 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:25.080 a lot. It increases employee satisfaction. I think it also 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:28.279 just reflects the fact that a lot of us, you know, 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:31.920 if we're knowledge workers, especially if we're professionals, were kind 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:35.440 of on the clock all the time anyway, So remote 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:38.159 work is just an extension of all of us having 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:42.200 to check email on nights and weekends anyway. Plus, some 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:46.080 companies do it very deliberately, not just for the lifestyle reasons, 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:50.000 but also because they figure they can save themselves money 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:53.960 on offices and office space. And some companies do it 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:57.159 because of the talent crunch. So imagine you're trying to 0:06:57.240 --> 0:06:59.400 hire coders, you know, what are the odds that you 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:02.520 can find all of them within you know, driving distance 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:05.800 of your Chicago headquarters or wherever you are. So there's 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:08.640 tons of job functions like that where there's a mismatch 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:10.920 between how many people are available to do a job 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:13.240 and the demand for that job, and getting people to 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:15.320 work remotely is a great way to solve that because 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:18.040 your talent pool becomes the whole world at that point. 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.600 So that helps explain the rising trend of working from home. 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:26.240 Why are companies like IBM getting sort of skittish about it? Like, 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.360 what are some of the drawbacks of remote work? So 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:33.280 in my conversations with IBM, they said that there are 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:37.000 certain roles that just don't lend themselves to remote work, 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:40.640 and others have said this too, although startups that are 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:44.200 committed to remote work disagree. So both IBM and Dell, 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:46.280 which is another company that's big on remote work, has 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:50.440 said that roles like research and development don't work remotely. 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:52.840 You need people in the same office. I mean that 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:57.120 kind of makes sense if you're doing some really hardcore thing. 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:00.960 Imagine doing like scientific research or something. You've all kind 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:02.080 of got to be in the same place at the 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.679 same time. There's probably equipment there that you just can't 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:10.080 use on your laptop. So in those kinds of roles, 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:13.720 remote work just might not be appropriate. In your piece, 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:17.440 you talk about a completely remote office, or you mentioned 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:21.800 startups that are committed to being remote. Is that really tenable? 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:24.400 Is that the future of where we're going with remote work, 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:27.520 everybody just not being in an office at all. So 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:30.200 one of the things that's interesting about these all remote 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:34.880 startups is that I think that most of them started 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:40.400 their remote work programs first and sort of then figured out, 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:41.920 you know, how are we going to make this work? 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:45.360 Like they basically came at it with the idea that 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:47.520 this is how we want to live and this is 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:49.480 the kind of company we want to build. So a 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:51.960 great example is base Camp. They were kind of slacked 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:55.320 before slack existed, and they're a small company in Chicago. 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:58.040 You know, they're spread across I don't know how many 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:03.839 times zones similarly automatic, which makes WordPress dot com. That's 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:07.000 a company with more than five and fifty workers and 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:10.520 they're definitely making it work. But that is a just 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.320 an incredibly strong commitment from them, So they use slack 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:17.720 to communicate, they use these internal blogs to communicate asynchronously, 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:21.040 as they call it. And they have to hire people 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:23.800 who will fit into that culture, who can communicate in 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:28.200 those mediums, and who are comfortable working remotely and communicating 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:31.920 in that way. So there are companies for which, you know, 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:34.000 they take the extreme stance like we're going to be 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:37.839 totally remote, but that is the exception. Most companies, even 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:41.200 the ones that are all in on this, are kind 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:43.360 of hybrid. And there's a bunch of other examples to 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:46.679 that are hybrid besides Dell and IBM, like you know 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:50.640 their insurance companies that do that. Bank of America has 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:54.280 a pretty big commitment to it. Um There's actually this 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:56.920 whole list from a company called flex Jobs, and every 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.480 year they rate the top one companies for remote work. 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.160 There's a bunch of surprises on there. It's like the 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:07.200 Department of Commerce and you know, various healthcare companies. So 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:10.120 there are a few companies where everyone works remotely, and 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:12.560 then there are companies where no one's allowed to work remotely. 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:14.679 But I think in most cases it's a little bit 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:17.440 of a mix. Is that hybrid office A really hard 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.480 balance to strike. Based on my own experience, that's a 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:23.480 really hard balance to strike. And you know, I talked 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:29.199 to Jason Freed, who is the CEO of base Camp, 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:31.360 which you know he's he's thought a lot about this, 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:34.640 Like he actually gives workshops every month to teach other 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:39.160 companies how to um run their company remotely. And his 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:43.559 feeling is that whatever the majority of your employees are 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:46.720 either remote or you know, in an office together, that's 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:49.920 going to be the dominant culture at your company. And 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:52.840 so if the majority of your employees are in an office, 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:56.679 that's going to be how people communicate. That's where all 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:00.160 the meetings and brainstorms happen, and they don't feel of 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:02.600 an obligation to include the remote workers, and they get 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:06.760 shut out of decisions and all kinds of important other stuff. 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:10.600 I think that it's probably possible for companies to be 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:13.240 inclusive of remote workers, even if the majority of their 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:16.240 workers aren't remote, but it just takes a real commitment. 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:18.480 I think everyone has to be super conscious of the 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.320 fact that, you know, if you hold a meeting and 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.440 you know, we've all been in this position. You know, 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:25.360 there's a dozen people in the room and there's the 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:28.280 two people who call in on the phone or maybe 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:30.760 even you know, over Skype or Google hang out. But 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.680 those people are missing out on like of what's happening 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:37.600 in that meeting, and you know, nine of the value 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:41.760 of that meeting. So unless people are really forced to 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:44.600 communicate through these online tools, whether they're in the office 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.480 or remote, then the remote workers are going to be 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.360 left out. Yeah, that seems to be why IBM is 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:54.240 moving away from their remote work policy. It's just not 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:56.160 the way they think that they can get the most 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:58.480 out of their workers. But as you mentioned, people like it, 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:00.760 and I imagine IBM worker is our used to it. 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:05.080 So what can offices do to make working from home 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:09.040 more realistic for more workers? So to make working from 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:13.000 home more realistic for more workers, offices need to have 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:17.320 the right processes in place for people who are working 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.800 remotely wherever they're working from, whether it's home or a 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:24.240 client's office or you know, a Starbucks or the field 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.120 or whatever it is. And so you know, you can't 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:29.120 have your weekly all hands meeting at the office and 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:32.280 expect remote workers to be bought into that, Like it's 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:36.680 got to happen over your video conferencing system or you know, 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:40.120 some companies will just get rid of meetings altogether. They 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:42.520 see that as a side benefit of having people work remotely, 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.480 and they'll make those kinds of decisions through these asynchronous 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:49.360 communications systems, which are like internal blogs or you know, 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:53.040 some kind of internet or some kind of system that 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:57.720 isn't just slack basically, so that there's some persistence and 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:00.480 and everybody can catch up and see what's going on 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:04.640 and weigh in. What if companies told you about how 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:08.040 they save costs. I know that in theory, you're saving 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.280 costs on overhead if people aren't you know, coming in 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:14.800 and using equipment. But then you described automatic office as 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:18.000 being this great, big, beautiful space that nobody was using. 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:21.440 So what are you hearing about how how companies are 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:25.360 making decisions around saving and helping people work in a 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.560 way that fits them. So one thing that's been big 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:32.960 for a while is this whole idea of getting employees 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:36.400 to hot desk. And you know, imagine that you're paying 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:39.760 a ton of money for you know, prime real estate 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:43.760 in downtown Manhattan and you want to just use less 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:46.240 of that. So one thing you can do is get 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:48.880 employees to give up on the idea that they have 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:52.240 their particular desk, and if you know that people are 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:54.640 only going to be around three days of the week, 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:57.840 you know, I have people rotate through whatever existing space 0:13:57.880 --> 0:13:59.679 you have, So it's it's simply a matter of saving 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:01.960 on real estate on the square footage that you're paying for. 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.120 Is there anything lost by giving up your own customized 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:10.400 space that's just yours at work? I think there probably is. 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:14.800 You know, humans are were creatures of habit and we 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:19.160 can be territorial. And there are horror stories from when 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:23.680 hot hot desking was first invented about like there was 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.760 a particular ad agency where they did it and they 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:28.640 got rid of all the cubicles and they're like, everyone's 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:32.040 just gonna work around these tables, and people began to 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.560 kind of like partition them with their junk or their 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:38.280 books or whatever and and kind of like wall them off, 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.360 and there were like these little battles about Like well, 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:44.000 that's where I usually said, I think all those are 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.360 are growing pains. But it does raise the point that 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:49.520 that if you couldn't go all in on remote or 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:52.800 some kind of hybrid model, there's a lot of moving parts. 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:54.960 It's not just like oh, now we're all using you know, 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:58.960 Zoom or some other video conferencing system like now, it's 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.720 like the whole geography of your office is different as well, 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:05.400 and and Dell has been dealing with that. So Dell 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:08.240 has more than a hundred thousand employees, and as they've 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:10.040 gotten more and more of them to work remotely, they've 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:13.840 been reconfiguring their office space and get getting rid of 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:16.600 traditional desks and cubicles. And to me, it seems there 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:21.200 is some benefit to being with people sometimes. I know 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:23.560 that I like some of our in person meetings that 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:27.720 we have here. Um, and you've been working remotely for 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:31.960 most of your professional life, what are your personal experiences, 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:34.880 both positive and negative. Yeah, I think that it is 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:38.960 a mistake to imagine that that human psychology is compatible 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:43.040 with just ruining everybody on their own little island. Even 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:45.560 the companies that are pure remote work will get everybody 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.160 together at least a couple of times a year, and 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.960 then people will sometimes travel more often for other types 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:56.560 of meetings. Personally, you know, I have tried every possible 0:15:56.640 --> 0:16:02.320 configuration of remote and hybrid work, and I found that 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:07.040 I absolutely need a place that I can go that's 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:09.320 just like okay, if I if I just need to work, 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:11.160 and I need to you know, get things done, and 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:13.960 I and I have a space that's completely devoted to that. 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.200 I have to have that, and I also have to 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.600 be able to go to a place where it's not 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:22.360 just you know, me staring at four walls, and that 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:24.960 I think just shows kind of the complexities of this. 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:28.960 Like a lot of people who work remotely will still 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:30.800 sometimes go to an office even if it's not with 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.760 their coworkers, and they're going to coworking spaces or they 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:38.080 may cowork with some subset of their coworkers. And I 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:39.640 think this is one of the reasons that you're seeing 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.360 this rise of like all these coworking spaces and we work, 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:45.480 you know, there's even these things that are like there 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:47.960 are startups that where you can, you know, rent a 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:51.640 conference room for an hour, or or rent a conference 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:53.360 room that has a couch that you can lie down 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:56.360 on and can nap in for an hour because you're 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:59.720 traveling to client meetings or whatever. So with that flexibility 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:04.080 come the need to flexibly be in the presence of others. 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:07.000 And and so for me, what that looks like is, yeah, 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:08.800 there's plenty of time that I'm just working on my 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:11.359 own because that's the nature of being uh, you know, 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:14.000 a writer and doing lots of phone interviews, which is 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.840 mostly what I do. But you know, I also have 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:20.080 a coworking space where I work alongside people who are 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:23.160 doing things that are completely unrelated to what I do. 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:28.520 But that's really helpful for me psychologically and keeps me focused. Yeah, 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:31.239 I've definitely heard of companies where they will pay for 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:36.440 their workers coworking spaces when they're remote workers. Um, well, 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:38.000 thank you so much for coming on and talking to 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:46.200 us about remote work. Yeah, thanks for having me. Chris 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:48.800 gets at one problem that remote work doesn't really solve, 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.840 which is that people still seem to want a space 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:55.200 that feels like a workspace. They want it personalized. Even 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.760 when Chris works from home, he finds a way to 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:02.119 be around other people and be in a spot that 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:05.439 feels like a real workspace. All that stuff says to 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:07.480 me that there are a lot of things about the 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:11.399 traditional office that we don't necessarily want to lose, like 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:13.800 for people to do their work well, it's nice to 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:17.679 have those things. I think that Chris's situation shows that 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.600 you can have some elements of the office that people like, 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:25.120 like being around other humans without necessarily going as far 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:29.800 as IBM did and calling everyone back to the physical headquarters, 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.399 Like there is a more progressive way to get some 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:34.800 of the things that IBM wants while still having some 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:38.440 of the flexibility. Like I do fall on the same 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:40.720 end of the spectrum as IBM, where I do think 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:43.360 there are bottom line benefits to being in the same 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.639 office as your coworkers, and I like being around people. 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.800 Then again, there is something really nice about just having 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:54.119 the option of working from home sometimes when something comes 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.439 up or if you need to travel for some reason. 0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:59.119 I know those are not like the most important reasons 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:01.439 to need to work from home, but just having it 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:04.200 there is like an employee park. Yeah, I feel exactly 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:07.320 the same way. And I also think that Chris and 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:09.359 his article mentioned that there are certain types of jobs 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:12.760 that lend themselves to working from home and are working remotely, 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.280 and some that don't. And I feel like there are 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:18.720 certain aspects of my job that work for working from 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.040 home and some that don't. There are most days I 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:22.560 feel the same way as you, like I kind of 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:24.639 need to be around my colleagues in order to collaborate 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.480 and quickly ask someone a question without thinking about it 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:29.960 too much and overhear what's going on so that I 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.240 have a sense of, you know, the stories that are 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.240 being published the next day. But then there's some days 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.240 where I have to dig into a really big project 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:40.680 and eliminating distraction is my main goal. And for that 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:44.560 I could be at my kitchen table, hunched over a laptop, 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:47.280 you know, with some headphones in. So to me, having 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:50.520 the option is really important. Yeah, and I think that's 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:52.919 a big thing for workers. They like to feel like 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:55.960 they can make adult choices that are good for them 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:58.919 and the things that they need to do. Yeah, sometimes 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:02.439 you gotta go to the bank exactly. Listeners, what do 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:04.840 you guys think about working from home? How does it 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:06.639 work for your life and your job? Let us know 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:08.840 you can tweet at us or leave us a voicemail 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:11.879 at two and two six on seven zero one six six. 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:20.040 And now it's time for half big Takes, Happy fake takes. Francesca, 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:22.800 what is your super strong opinion that you would like 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:25.360 to share with the world today. I have a very 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:29.200 on topic half big take. It's about working remotely. I 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:33.640 have a little strategy that makes my home into an 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:36.240 office because I don't have a personal home office me 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:38.399 either in New York City, right, Yeah, you may be 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:40.840 surprised to learn I don't live in a sprawling mansion. 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:42.800 Um so if I work from home, I'm like sitting 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:45.159 at the kitchen table. I work on a laptop that 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:48.840 has a little track pad. Um, My workspace is very contained. 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:52.520 In order to make working from home fuel legit, I 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:54.679 use a mouse only when I'm working from home. So 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:56.760 if I'm on my laptop for some other reason at home, 0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:59.720 I just use the track pad. But the mouse it 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.600 triggers some Pavlovian thing that gets me into like office mode. 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:06.639 I totally get that. The reason I don't like the 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:09.560 mouse is exactly the reason you use it, which is like, oh, 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:12.000 but how do you use that on the couch? Which 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:16.679 is yeah, that's actually I was thinking it was like 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:18.959 some deep psychological thing, but it's actually that's probably all 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:21.240 it is that forces you to sit at the table. No, yeah, 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:22.520 I mean the only time I use the mouse is 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.639 at work. I think the Pavlovian thing is real. Becca, 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:29.240 what is your somewhat fleshed out but not worthy of 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:31.919