WEBVTT - Debating Desert 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:08.960 It could happen. Here is the podcast that you're listening 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:12.319 to right now. I'm Robert Evans. All right, that's that's 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:14.280 my job done. What are we What are we doing? 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:18.680 What are we doing today? Hey? What's up? Hey? Andrew? 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:23.960 Back at it again with another podcast. UM. Today, we're 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.320 doing something a little bit different from the previous episodes 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:29.400 that I've done. We're having a bit more of an 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:35.400 open discussion about certain book that has been passed around 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:43.080 for about a decade now and as polarized UM members 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:48.480 of the anarchist community. UM for it that way, UM. 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:52.760 Today we'll be talking about the book the infamous uh 0:00:53.040 --> 0:01:01.720 polemic Desert by Anonymous. For those who uh, you know, 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:08.319 not aware of this extremely controversial text. Desert is a 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:13.040 nihilist anarchist text who is published in two thousand eleven 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:18.200 that is mainly directed at other anarchists and seeks to 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:24.279 address issues of climate collapse and revolution. It became somewhat 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:26.880 of a meme to tell folks to read Dessert. I'm 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:28.960 not sure when that was, but I just remember scene. 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:35.039 It's a lot um I think in yeah around read 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:38.959 Desert became a name yeah yeah, all over Twitter and 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:47.440 Instagram and Reddit, but of course, being a thing that 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:51.760 exists on the Internet, people who naturally became torn on 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:54.520 the subject of it. And so there are a lot 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:59.480 of perspectives and opinions and think pieces about desert, some 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:02.800 more or less accurate than others. But we are here 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:07.600 to discuss the book, all personal experiences reading it, things 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.600 we think it gets right and wrong, and what we 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:18.080 could potentially looen going forward, so I would see the 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:25.440 floor is yours, whoever wants to go first. I mean, 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.720 I'm a huge fan of the quote that the book 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.280 takes it or that the that it takes its name from, 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:34.120 which comes from you know, Tacitus, who was a dude 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:37.520 writing in the Roman period Um, and the exact quote 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:41.239 that it comes from is and he's talking. Tacitus is 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:44.240 talking about the Roman Empire, robbers of the world. Now 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:47.680 that the earth is insufficient for their all devastating hands, 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.400 they probe even the sea. If their enemy is rich, 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.359 they are greedy. If he is poor, they thirst for dominion. 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:57.200 Neither East nor West has satisfied them alone. Of mankind, 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:01.000 they are equally covetous of poverty and wealth, robbery, slaughter, 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:04.240 and plunder. They falsely name empire, they make a desert 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:09.960 and they call it peace. Huh, goodass quote. It is 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:14.280 a it is a solid Yeah, And obviously I think 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:17.440 people living in the shadows of every empire that's ever 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:21.800 existed can identify with that quote. Um, it's it's a 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:27.639 powerful kind of central idea to hang your extended essay. 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:29.320 I don't really know what the best term to refer 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:33.640 to it as. Yeah, it's it's it's it's a long essay. Yeah, 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.680 it's a very long essay. As we talked about kind 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:39.920 of coming into this, it's extremely two thousand tens um 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:44.240 three Arab Spring pre all the big uprisings and revolts 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:50.320 we had in twenty nineteen, and Um, there's definitely some 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.280 stuff that it gets very right. And I think kind 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:55.720 of one of the ways in which it's had an 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:58.840 impact on me is kind of I've I've thought about 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:02.280 what happens to sort of culture as the result of 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:06.400 this kind of Hollywood engine that is heavily tied up 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:10.840 with the United States military Industrial complex UM as a 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:14.840 process of desertification of ideas and the ability to like 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:20.000 conceive of of of new futures. UM. That said, I 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:24.160 I don't really I haven't reread it in a very 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:29.400 long time and haven't really felt um called to in 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:32.120 in many ways because I do think I don't know. 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:34.120 I think there's an extent to which it's been kind 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:38.400 of left behind. Um yeah, some of the things that 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.880 have happened since I think. Yeah, UM, I will say 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:48.840 that as someone who really came into my owners an 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:55.920 archist in like, although I had identified with it before, um, 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:58.279 when I had read the book, Um, I think it 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:02.960 was in late late so when I read the book 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:07.560 first time, I read it and honestly, um, there was 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:12.960 some good, some add some some very outdated stuff, and 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.599 also some stuff that I don't know. Maybe the author 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:20.960 felt it was like groundbreak and at the time, but 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:26.920 you know, at this present stage just feels like common 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:34.400 knowledge sense, you know, I mean it was, it was 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:38.680 groundbreaking in a way for like climate realism, right, like 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.840 this was this was written before you know, this is 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.360 written before climate levy thing. This was written before um, 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:47.960 the uninhabitable Earth. This was written before a lot of 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:51.400 kind of the texts that view climate change is an 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:55.320 absolute Like this was written one year before hyper objects, 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:58.200 Which is really interesting actually because you know, the whole 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:00.679 prepence of that book is that climate change is done, 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.320 like it happened, where we're like there's no turning back 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:06.560 the clock. And the Desert was written even before that, 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:09.560 like it was. It was one of the first things 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:11.880 now and of course it's it's it's much more niche, 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:14.360 but like it was. If I if I look back 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:16.080 in books that have like impacted me, it was it's 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:19.360 one of the first books like that came out, like 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:24.240 timeline wise to take climate changes, like yeah, it's there's 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.200 no saving it, like there's no living in the two thousand's, 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:29.520 there's no living in the nineties. Again, it's like things 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:32.560 are like the world's not going to end, but things 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:34.719 are going to get worse, right like and that, and 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:36.520 that is kind of a big, big part of the 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:40.159 book because it's it's also it's also not pro collapse 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:42.960 like it it doesn't take collapse is an absolute. It 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:46.400 doesn't take. It doesn't it doesn't subscribe to global collapse. 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:48.960 And that's one of the misconceptions I think people have 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:51.560 about them. Yeah, that they just assume it's like this 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:56.480 collapse dumorous like mr. Rupic kind of text, but which 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.680 I did not read it as that. I first started 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:02.320 around this same time you did, UM, And I read 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:03.960 it as a part of a lot of books I 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:06.360 was reading to prep for the show when we when 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.680 we were writing our first five episodes on like on 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:13.080 climate change and like the Crumbles. So I read it, 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:15.480 read it as a part of my kind of general 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:18.280 research and yeah, like at that point it was already 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.040 kind of mimified to be like, you know, like an 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:25.640 anarcho nihilist like Dumer Manifesto. And I read it, I'm like, 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:30.240 that's not what it's saying at all. It's actually once 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.000 i'd read it, I was like, I was really taking 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:38.440 it back at how how easily um, popular perceptions of 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:42.560 a piece of media good um, I mean honestly corrupted 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:46.080 beyond recognition. Yeah, you know, like if people are a 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:48.880 bunch of people are telling you know it's that about 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:53.160 is in text or whatever, you know, it's kind of shake, 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:55.800 it kind of shakes the opposite like actually consumed for 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:59.800 yourself and then realize, how did you all get that? Yeah, 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:01.880 how did you read that out of it? It is 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:03.600 really interesting because I'm not even sure if they did 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:05.400 read out of it, or if that was the perception 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:07.000 they had going into it, So they read it through 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:10.240 that lens, and that lens basically you know, changed the 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:12.600 text in their heads to fit that thing, because yea, 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:16.080 it is really interesting how how it is so associated 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:19.560 with like dumerism um. Yet if you like, engage in 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.160 good faith with the text, it's very much not a 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:26.040 Doomer manifesto anyway, although there are aspects of it that 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:29.720 I am um that I think attitude wise, that I 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:31.640 am critical of. But I think Chris was going to 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:33.720 say sometimes, yeah, so I was just like, I, I 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:36.760 really I've always not liked this book, Like I read 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:40.320 it back, and I think she doesn'teen when it was 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:44.000 first sort of like coming back, yeah, And I didn't 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:45.640 like it then, and I read it this morning and 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:47.960 I like it even less now than I did then, 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:51.079 And I think, I think, I actually I actually okay. So, like, 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:54.760 I think it's true that most of the text doesn't 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:56.600 do the duomer thing, but I think I understand where 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:58.440 people got it from, because you know, you have quotes 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.400 in this like, uh, here here's one. Yet I can 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:05.000 already hear the accusations from my own camp, accusations of 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:08.360 deserting the cause of revolution, deserting the struggle for another world, 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:12.319 such accusations are correct. I would rejoin that such millinarian 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.520 and progressive myths are at the core of the expansion 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:17.360 of power. And this is this is what I really like. 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.400 I think from an ecological perspective, it's sort of okay. 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:24.680 I strongly dislike Desert as an anarchist text because I 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:27.000 think that's just wrong. I think, I think, I think 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:29.760 there's there there's there's there's an ingrained defeatism in it 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:33.880 that is so strong that it it it just it 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:38.160 like warps the author's perception of the past. Like you 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.200 get these things where he's talking about these these kind 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:42.480 of he's talking about like the you know, what you 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.200 call the classical anarchist movement from roughly like eighteen seventy 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:48.040 two really sort of ends with the defeat of the 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:50.800 anarchists in Spain and like seven and and he you know, 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:54.280 they say things like from Spain pre nineteen thirty six 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:57.080 to the Jewish anarchists in North America, the illegalist of France, 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:00.400 and the Italian anarchosenty close to Argentina. The habitants of 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:04.440 anarchist counter societies were always, by definition active minorities. The 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:07.439 minorities may have gotten larger in an instructionary moments, but 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:11.520 they remained at minorities always and that's just wrong. It's 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:15.880 it's factually wrong. Like these these movements were not minorities, 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:19.400 like the like the entire like the like the largest 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.319 union in France was the CG like in the early 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:25.240 Action hundred was the the you just see it this 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:30.840 deep that all all of the French, Spanish and Portuguese 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:35.000 country speaking countries have a they have one union that's 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:36.439 called the U G C and one union it's called 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:38.200 the CG T. And I can't remember which ones which, 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:40.400 but like like that was that was the largest union 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:42.560 in France, and it was the syndicalist union right like 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:44.280 it was like and there's you know the same thing 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:47.240 with Argentina, right for a like for a while was 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:50.120 the largest union in Argentina. And I think and this 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:51.840 this is sort of my problem with this, which is 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:55.520 that you know, this is a person who's basically like 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:57.560 they talked about, like they are born in the seventies 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:00.360 and they've they they're writing the steals in eleven in 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:03.200 just the midst of the collapse of sort of like 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.280 the complete and total destruction of the old anarchist movement, right, 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:08.160 the anarchist movement that had been born out of sort 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:14.160 of like the Zapatistas and the anti globalization movements. And 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:18.040 they've been beaten so badly that you know, I mean 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:20.160 they were crushed, they were completely destroyed, and they've been 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:24.240 beaten so badly that they they can't they literally can't 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:29.200 imagine winning and think that like like revolution in general, 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:31.960 like is essentially is a secular theology. They repeat this 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:33.640 over and over and over again. It's like revolution is 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:36.839 the theology, Revolution is a myth. And it's like and 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:39.640 this is this is something that's just a product of defeat. 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:43.160 It's not a product of sort of taking seriously the 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.360 conditions that are emerging around them. And you know, I 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:48.800 was talking about this before the recording. It's like right 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.360 after this is written, it's you get the movement of 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:54.959 the squares and then you get occupied, and it's like 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:58.120 basically like every major city in the world goes into revolt. 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:03.120 The revolts are anarchists inspired. And you know, and the desert, 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:05.360 like this is why Dessert vanishes for like six or 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:08.679 seven years, because desert is a piece that's written like 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:12.640 it's it's it's a piece that's that's only happens in 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.079 a in a very specific part of a revolutionary cycle, 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.440 which is when like every everything has been crushed, all 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:20.600 resistance has been crushed, everyone's losing hope, and then everyone 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:26.400 starts reading dessert again and then the revolutions restart, and 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:28.680 and at that point, like once once once there's like, 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:32.320 you know, two thousand people in the streets again like 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:35.160 fighting the cops, it becomes less and less sort of 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:38.319 like like that, that part of its analysis becomes less 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:41.680 and less relevant, until you know, inevitably everyone like there's 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.080 there's a defeat and then everyone goes sort of like 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:45.480 and I think I think that's why it has the 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.240 duomer rep because it's it's it's the text that people 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:51.640 read when you've been beaten in the streets. See, Yeah, 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.920 that's that's an interesting look at it because I mean, 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.800 I definitely agree with the revolution is an idea, like 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:02.679 is a thing like I I specifically within the context 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:04.360 of the United States, which I believe that's what the 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:07.560 books trying to mostly focus on. They do bring up 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.400 other parts of the world and stuff, um, but it's 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:14.920 definitely written by in a by an American like citizen 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:17.880 and that that that is I mean, I mean that 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:22.120 that could actually be wrong. Um. It may not be 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:24.679 written by an American, but I in terms of reading it, 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:26.360 it is kind of through like a very like Western 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:30.559 lens of like revolutions not happening here. Um. And I 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.080 definitely sympathize and agree with that viewpoint. And I mean 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:35.600 if if you're in a point of being like it 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:37.920 was two US and eleven then occupied happened and like yeah, 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:40.720 but occupied in't. But that that also fits like every 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.400 every attempt has not succeeded in this country did to 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.199 get any kind of big, meaningful change that we can 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:51.160 push towards something that's like post capitalist. Um. So yeah, 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:53.120 I mean I do think I think it's it's it's 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:57.720 it's mostly targeting people specifically like communists um or Marks 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.640 Lendonist who like are just waiting around for the revolution 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:02.720 to happen and then don't do anything like that. Right, 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.520 that is that but but but but but I think 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:08.360 this is this is why it's a text that's like 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:11.840 that's not good for the moment, because our problem isn't that, 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.280 like like the problem right now isn't that there's no 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:17.840 one like there's no uprising on the horizon, Like everyone's 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:19.720 completely beaten down. No one's ever going to go into 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:23.240 his treats again. Our problem is that like there's just 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:26.800 there's there's there's there's periodic uprisings everywhere, and every single 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:29.000 time everyone is caught off guard, and every single time, 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:31.640 no one is able to actually sort of mobilize off 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:35.120 of it. And you know, like like like no, no one, 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:38.640 no one's been able to like pivot it into something 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:41.120 that's actually like transformative. But but but but I think that 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:45.520 that's a very different problem then the problem that desert 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:47.960 is because desert has already abandoned the possibility that an 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:53.280 uprising can win. That's I mean, it's yeah. And then 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:56.680 let's specifically been the idea of like global revolution, right, 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.520 that is, that is the thing that specifically targeting there's 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.680 things smaller specific they're saying, like smaller local things actually 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.800 can't succeed in a lot of ways. But they're trying 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:08.600 to tie this idea of global revolution is like a 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.560 pacifying idea, right just waiting around for this to happen 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.680 and tying that to this at the time much more 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:17.080 niche idea. Now it's now it's way more popular. But 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:20.400 this idea of like global collapse and how people think 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:23.280 if they can people think believing in global collapse is 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:26.600 smarter than believing in global revolution. They think it's more realistic. 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:28.880 But the book saying no, this is this idea of 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:31.440 global collapse actually falls under all the same issues that 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:35.720 global revolution has. I think i'd want to um sort 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:41.200 of comments here um with regard to like the defeat 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.560 is sort of reading um in the text. I understand 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:47.120 that reading um. I mean personally, I distinguished in like 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:50.640 defeatism and dumerism, and I always think, like my own 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:56.280 personality and my own perspective kind of like inoculates me 0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:00.239 in a way from like adopting that kind of defeatist 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:04.400 attitude towards um, you know, change. But I don't think 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:12.680 the book is entirely um, you know, dismissive of like revolution. Um. 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:14.640 It just I think the main thrust of it is 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:17.920 that it's critically the idea of like one global revolution, 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:23.560 one global collapse. What it really emphasizes is that, you know, 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:27.960 climate change brings new possibilities for new anarchies plural to 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:32.160 develop worldwide and responds changing circumstances. But at the same time, 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.840 you know, in some areas things are going to get 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:38.600 worse than some areas things are going to get better. 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:43.240 And it's not that really one broadbrush could be applied 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.200 to the entire earth, but I think, I mean, I 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:48.880 think like this, this is another thing that they're really 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:51.520 guilty of, especially like there's an entire section in here 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:55.680 where they just keep writing about Africa and it's like well, 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:57.240 and then you know, and they'll get pressed on it 0:16:57.240 --> 0:16:59.520 and they'll be like, no, no, we mean sub Saharan Africa, 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:02.640 and it's like, what are you talking like. They they 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:06.119 won't name countries, they won't name movements, they won't name people. 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:08.919 It's just they'll just write something about the whole of 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:12.160 Sub Saharan Africa. And it's just like, well, I think 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.520 that's evidence of the kind of of what Garrison was 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:17.080 talking about this, right, And this is something you see 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:20.600 all over the place with people writing about politics, with 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:24.400 people trying to write about like particularly revolutionary politics, UM 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:26.480 in a global sense, and I think it's usually a 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:29.080 mistake to do that, UM for the reasons we've kind 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:32.640 of discussed. Any time I see a left wing even 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:34.960 as somebody who I think is generally on point. Who 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:38.320 starts talking about, for example, like extending their theories about 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:40.760 revolutionary politics to places I happen to know just a 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.320 little bit about, it's always very clear like, oh you 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:45.800 don't know shit about Syria. Oh you don't know shit 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:51.000 about Libya. Oh you don't know shit about Angle like um. 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:53.159 And that's and that's like not even a moral failing. 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:56.560 It's just that it's impost It's it's impossible really to 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:59.560 have in depth knowledge of like what's actually going on 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:01.640 in those racism, what's going on in those revolutions. It's 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:04.560 why people default so much to the whole. Well, whatever 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:06.720 side the US is on must be the bad side, 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:08.840 and whatever side the Russians on must be the good side. 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:12.040 It's the easiest way to look at that ship. Um. 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.040 I don't I think that's. I think that's a worthwhile 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:17.440 critique to make, and it's a critique to make any 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:22.879 time that it happens. Um. I agree with Garrison and 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:26.679 with Andrew that I think the thing that is that 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:29.240 desert gets right. Um. And the thing that I've seen 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:32.840 in my own life is that like the opportunities we 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:36.360 should be looking for are not suddenly that some sort 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:39.160 of global revolution sweeps all of the things we don't 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:44.720 like out of power and magically institutes something better comprehensively 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:48.080 across the globe. It's it's it's room for little anarchies. 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:50.520 It's what we saw in northeast Syria, right where the 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:53.280 government pulls out and people have an opportunity to do 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:56.520 something not perfect, but better. And I think that is 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:58.520 that's kind of one of the things we talked about 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:00.920 a lot on this show. That's why a mutual aid 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:04.840 is valuable, It's why building these connections are valuable. It's because, um, 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:10.520 as things crumble, there will be opportunities two in local areas, 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:15.280 piecemeal institute and and push through for more just and 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:20.240 and better ways of living. Um And I think that 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:23.840 if you're looking at kind of the broad level potentially 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:26.040 optimistic point is that when you have enough of those 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:28.280 and when they spread well enough, and if communication is 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:30.920 good enough, maybe the things that work will get adopted 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:34.280 on a wider uh scale. And there's always the opportunity 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:37.600 that when enough, when ideas spread far enough, they have 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:40.320 a tipping point and and they go viral, you know, 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:43.960 so to speak. But I I I don't I think 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:47.480 that While there's a lot of specifics that Desert gets wrong, 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:49.600 I do think they were ahead of the curve and 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:52.200 recognizing that, and I think it's it's a more productive 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:55.919 way to look at the idea of revolutionary change. Then 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:59.760 we're going to finally have nineteen seventeen. But everywhere, you know, 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:14.560 m throughout to the Africa chapter. The impression that I 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:18.680 got while reading that chapter, and I think the book 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:24.080 itself references Um Samba Um. I got the impression that 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:28.679 the author had read UM Afghan Anarchism, History of a 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:33.199 movement by Sam Member and they were just kind of 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:36.600 like inspired by that, I would say, because as I 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:41.000 do point out, they didn't like specify the specific cultures, 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:45.000 which is an issue considering, you know, the tendency that 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:48.280 Westerners have of you know, being to Africa this large 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:51.040 brush as if it's you know, all one way or 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:57.320 the other. Um. But I think what we do see now, 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:02.199 UM is you know, from the Horn of Africa to 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:07.520 South Africa to Nigeria too, I mean recently Sudan. I believe, Um, 0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:12.480 there are Africans, smaller number organizing under the mount of anarchism, 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:16.280 and they are anarchic elements that continue to persist on 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:22.199 the continent. Yeah, I mean I think that's like, you know, 0:21:22.200 --> 0:21:23.840 I mean one of the things that they sort of 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.200 got they got right, was about how like this the 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:28.000 sort of the the sort of renewal the spread of 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:31.399 urban anarchism they're talking about like Chile in particular, they 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:37.800 got right, Um, Indonesia Bangladestra somewhat. But but but I 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:42.359 think I think there's there's another like my, my, my, my, 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:45.440 my biggest issue with them in terms of the way 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:48.159 they think about ecological stuff that this comes This is 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:52.000 something they talk about with like they have this thing 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:55.520 where they think that forger societies are like, Okay, they're 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:58.040 they're they're they're they're they're more careful than most people. 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:00.399 To frame it as like the forging soci ideas can 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:05.960 be a gallitarian, but I think they wind up talking 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:08.919 about these sort of like the way that sort of 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:11.600 forging nomadic society sort of inherently defy the boundaries of 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:14.720 the state, and like that's true, but you can also 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:18.280 have like nomadic forging societies that have that are you know, 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:23.320 hereditary slave societies. And this is this is a problem 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:27.600 because there's a there's a lot in here about that 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:29.520 that that's about sort of like they're they're you know, 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:31.320 they're they're taking this a sort of like soft anti 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:36.600 se of right. Yeah, it has a few lids where 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:40.560 it does specifically say fialization is the cause of like 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:44.160 I think it's like the civilization is genocide, um, which yeah, 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:53.040 and that can't silly, Yeah, by civilization genocide. Sure if 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:55.359 they're saying that they do cause genocide, if you're if 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:57.240 you're trying to make the case that it seems to 0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:01.320 be that civilizations, Uh, well, I don't know every civilization 0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:04.800 does not commit genocide, but no, but civilization gives you 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:09.320 a constant Yeah, civilization gives you the framework that makes 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:14.120 genocide possible, well, like potentially intentional genocide possible. I don't 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:16.000 know that I would agree with that, because I think 0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:19.680 you see examples of genocide from hunter gatherer societies and 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:24.399