1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: It could happen. Here is the podcast that you're listening 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,319 Speaker 1: to right now. I'm Robert Evans. All right, that's that's 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: my job done. What are we What are we doing? 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: What are we doing today? Hey? What's up? Hey? Andrew? 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: Back at it again with another podcast. UM. Today, we're 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: doing something a little bit different from the previous episodes 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: that I've done. We're having a bit more of an 8 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: open discussion about certain book that has been passed around 9 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: for about a decade now and as polarized UM members 10 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 1: of the anarchist community. UM for it that way, UM. 11 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: Today we'll be talking about the book the infamous uh 12 00:00:53,040 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: polemic Desert by Anonymous. For those who uh, you know, 13 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: not aware of this extremely controversial text. Desert is a 14 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: nihilist anarchist text who is published in two thousand eleven 15 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: that is mainly directed at other anarchists and seeks to 16 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:24,279 Speaker 1: address issues of climate collapse and revolution. It became somewhat 17 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: of a meme to tell folks to read Dessert. I'm 18 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: not sure when that was, but I just remember scene. 19 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: It's a lot um I think in yeah around read 20 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: Desert became a name yeah yeah, all over Twitter and 21 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: Instagram and Reddit, but of course, being a thing that 22 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: exists on the Internet, people who naturally became torn on 23 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: the subject of it. And so there are a lot 24 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: of perspectives and opinions and think pieces about desert, some 25 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: more or less accurate than others. But we are here 26 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: to discuss the book, all personal experiences reading it, things 27 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: we think it gets right and wrong, and what we 28 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: could potentially looen going forward, so I would see the 29 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: floor is yours, whoever wants to go first. I mean, 30 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan of the quote that the book 31 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: takes it or that the that it takes its name from, 32 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: which comes from you know, Tacitus, who was a dude 33 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: writing in the Roman period Um, and the exact quote 34 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 1: that it comes from is and he's talking. Tacitus is 35 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: talking about the Roman Empire, robbers of the world. Now 36 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: that the earth is insufficient for their all devastating hands, 37 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: they probe even the sea. If their enemy is rich, 38 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 1: they are greedy. If he is poor, they thirst for dominion. 39 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: Neither East nor West has satisfied them alone. Of mankind, 40 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: they are equally covetous of poverty and wealth, robbery, slaughter, 41 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: and plunder. They falsely name empire, they make a desert 42 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: and they call it peace. Huh, goodass quote. It is 43 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: a it is a solid Yeah, And obviously I think 44 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: people living in the shadows of every empire that's ever 45 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: existed can identify with that quote. Um, it's it's a 46 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: powerful kind of central idea to hang your extended essay. 47 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: I don't really know what the best term to refer 48 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: to it as. Yeah, it's it's it's it's a long essay. Yeah, 49 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: it's a very long essay. As we talked about kind 50 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: of coming into this, it's extremely two thousand tens um 51 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: three Arab Spring pre all the big uprisings and revolts 52 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: we had in twenty nineteen, and Um, there's definitely some 53 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: stuff that it gets very right. And I think kind 54 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: of one of the ways in which it's had an 55 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: impact on me is kind of I've I've thought about 56 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: what happens to sort of culture as the result of 57 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: this kind of Hollywood engine that is heavily tied up 58 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: with the United States military Industrial complex UM as a 59 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: process of desertification of ideas and the ability to like 60 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: conceive of of of new futures. UM. That said, I 61 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: I don't really I haven't reread it in a very 62 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: long time and haven't really felt um called to in 63 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: in many ways because I do think I don't know. 64 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: I think there's an extent to which it's been kind 65 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: of left behind. Um yeah, some of the things that 66 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: have happened since I think. Yeah, UM, I will say 67 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: that as someone who really came into my owners an 68 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: archist in like, although I had identified with it before, um, 69 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: when I had read the book, Um, I think it 70 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: was in late late so when I read the book 71 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: first time, I read it and honestly, um, there was 72 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: some good, some add some some very outdated stuff, and 73 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: also some stuff that I don't know. Maybe the author 74 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: felt it was like groundbreak and at the time, but 75 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: you know, at this present stage just feels like common 76 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: knowledge sense, you know, I mean it was, it was 77 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: groundbreaking in a way for like climate realism, right, like 78 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: this was this was written before you know, this is 79 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: written before climate levy thing. This was written before um, 80 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: the uninhabitable Earth. This was written before a lot of 81 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: kind of the texts that view climate change is an 82 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: absolute Like this was written one year before hyper objects, 83 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: Which is really interesting actually because you know, the whole 84 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,679 Speaker 1: prepence of that book is that climate change is done, 85 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: like it happened, where we're like there's no turning back 86 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: the clock. And the Desert was written even before that, 87 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: like it was. It was one of the first things 88 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: now and of course it's it's it's much more niche, 89 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: but like it was. If I if I look back 90 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: in books that have like impacted me, it was it's 91 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: one of the first books like that came out, like 92 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: timeline wise to take climate changes, like yeah, it's there's 93 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: no saving it, like there's no living in the two thousand's, 94 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: there's no living in the nineties. Again, it's like things 95 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: are like the world's not going to end, but things 96 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: are going to get worse, right like and that, and 97 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: that is kind of a big, big part of the 98 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 1: book because it's it's also it's also not pro collapse 99 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: like it it doesn't take collapse is an absolute. It 100 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: doesn't take. It doesn't it doesn't subscribe to global collapse. 101 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: And that's one of the misconceptions I think people have 102 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: about them. Yeah, that they just assume it's like this 103 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: collapse dumorous like mr. Rupic kind of text, but which 104 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: I did not read it as that. I first started 105 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: around this same time you did, UM, And I read 106 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: it as a part of a lot of books I 107 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: was reading to prep for the show when we when 108 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: we were writing our first five episodes on like on 109 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: climate change and like the Crumbles. So I read it, 110 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: read it as a part of my kind of general 111 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: research and yeah, like at that point it was already 112 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: kind of mimified to be like, you know, like an 113 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: anarcho nihilist like Dumer Manifesto. And I read it, I'm like, 114 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: that's not what it's saying at all. It's actually once 115 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: i'd read it, I was like, I was really taking 116 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: it back at how how easily um, popular perceptions of 117 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: a piece of media good um, I mean honestly corrupted 118 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: beyond recognition. Yeah, you know, like if people are a 119 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: bunch of people are telling you know it's that about 120 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: is in text or whatever, you know, it's kind of shake, 121 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: it kind of shakes the opposite like actually consumed for 122 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: yourself and then realize, how did you all get that? Yeah, 123 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: how did you read that out of it? It is 124 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: really interesting because I'm not even sure if they did 125 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: read out of it, or if that was the perception 126 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: they had going into it, So they read it through 127 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: that lens, and that lens basically you know, changed the 128 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: text in their heads to fit that thing, because yea, 129 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: it is really interesting how how it is so associated 130 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: with like dumerism um. Yet if you like, engage in 131 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: good faith with the text, it's very much not a 132 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: Doomer manifesto anyway, although there are aspects of it that 133 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: I am um that I think attitude wise, that I 134 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: am critical of. But I think Chris was going to 135 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: say sometimes, yeah, so I was just like, I, I 136 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: really I've always not liked this book, Like I read 137 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: it back, and I think she doesn'teen when it was 138 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: first sort of like coming back, yeah, And I didn't 139 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: like it then, and I read it this morning and 140 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: I like it even less now than I did then, 141 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 1: And I think, I think, I actually I actually okay. So, like, 142 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: I think it's true that most of the text doesn't 143 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: do the duomer thing, but I think I understand where 144 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: people got it from, because you know, you have quotes 145 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: in this like, uh, here here's one. Yet I can 146 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: already hear the accusations from my own camp, accusations of 147 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: deserting the cause of revolution, deserting the struggle for another world, 148 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 1: such accusations are correct. I would rejoin that such millinarian 149 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: and progressive myths are at the core of the expansion 150 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: of power. And this is this is what I really like. 151 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: I think from an ecological perspective, it's sort of okay. 152 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: I strongly dislike Desert as an anarchist text because I 153 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: think that's just wrong. I think, I think, I think 154 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: there's there there's there's there's an ingrained defeatism in it 155 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: that is so strong that it it it just it 156 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: like warps the author's perception of the past. Like you 157 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: get these things where he's talking about these these kind 158 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: of he's talking about like the you know, what you 159 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: call the classical anarchist movement from roughly like eighteen seventy 160 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: two really sort of ends with the defeat of the 161 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: anarchists in Spain and like seven and and he you know, 162 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: they say things like from Spain pre nineteen thirty six 163 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: to the Jewish anarchists in North America, the illegalist of France, 164 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: and the Italian anarchosenty close to Argentina. The habitants of 165 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: anarchist counter societies were always, by definition active minorities. The 166 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 1: minorities may have gotten larger in an instructionary moments, but 167 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: they remained at minorities always and that's just wrong. It's 168 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: it's factually wrong. Like these these movements were not minorities, 169 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: like the like the entire like the like the largest 170 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 1: union in France was the CG like in the early 171 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: Action hundred was the the you just see it this 172 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: deep that all all of the French, Spanish and Portuguese 173 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: country speaking countries have a they have one union that's 174 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 1: called the U G C and one union it's called 175 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: the CG T. And I can't remember which ones which, 176 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: but like like that was that was the largest union 177 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: in France, and it was the syndicalist union right like 178 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: it was like and there's you know the same thing 179 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: with Argentina, right for a like for a while was 180 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: the largest union in Argentina. And I think and this 181 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: this is sort of my problem with this, which is 182 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: that you know, this is a person who's basically like 183 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: they talked about, like they are born in the seventies 184 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: and they've they they're writing the steals in eleven in 185 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: just the midst of the collapse of sort of like 186 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: the complete and total destruction of the old anarchist movement, right, 187 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: the anarchist movement that had been born out of sort 188 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: of like the Zapatistas and the anti globalization movements. And 189 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: they've been beaten so badly that you know, I mean 190 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: they were crushed, they were completely destroyed, and they've been 191 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: beaten so badly that they they can't they literally can't 192 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: imagine winning and think that like like revolution in general, 193 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: like is essentially is a secular theology. They repeat this 194 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: over and over and over again. It's like revolution is 195 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 1: the theology, Revolution is a myth. And it's like and 196 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: this is this is something that's just a product of defeat. 197 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: It's not a product of sort of taking seriously the 198 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: conditions that are emerging around them. And you know, I 199 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: was talking about this before the recording. It's like right 200 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: after this is written, it's you get the movement of 201 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,959 Speaker 1: the squares and then you get occupied, and it's like 202 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: basically like every major city in the world goes into revolt. 203 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: The revolts are anarchists inspired. And you know, and the desert, 204 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: like this is why Dessert vanishes for like six or 205 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: seven years, because desert is a piece that's written like 206 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: it's it's it's a piece that's that's only happens in 207 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 1: a in a very specific part of a revolutionary cycle, 208 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: which is when like every everything has been crushed, all 209 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: resistance has been crushed, everyone's losing hope, and then everyone 210 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: starts reading dessert again and then the revolutions restart, and 211 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: and at that point, like once once once there's like, 212 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: you know, two thousand people in the streets again like 213 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: fighting the cops, it becomes less and less sort of 214 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 1: like like that, that part of its analysis becomes less 215 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: and less relevant, until you know, inevitably everyone like there's 216 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: there's a defeat and then everyone goes sort of like 217 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: and I think I think that's why it has the 218 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: duomer rep because it's it's it's the text that people 219 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: read when you've been beaten in the streets. See, Yeah, 220 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: that's that's an interesting look at it because I mean, 221 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: I definitely agree with the revolution is an idea, like 222 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 1: is a thing like I I specifically within the context 223 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: of the United States, which I believe that's what the 224 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: books trying to mostly focus on. They do bring up 225 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: other parts of the world and stuff, um, but it's 226 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: definitely written by in a by an American like citizen 227 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: and that that that is I mean, I mean that 228 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: that could actually be wrong. Um. It may not be 229 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: written by an American, but I in terms of reading it, 230 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: it is kind of through like a very like Western 231 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 1: lens of like revolutions not happening here. Um. And I 232 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: definitely sympathize and agree with that viewpoint. And I mean 233 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: if if you're in a point of being like it 234 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: was two US and eleven then occupied happened and like yeah, 235 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: but occupied in't. But that that also fits like every 236 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: every attempt has not succeeded in this country did to 237 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 1: get any kind of big, meaningful change that we can 238 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: push towards something that's like post capitalist. Um. So yeah, 239 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: I mean I do think I think it's it's it's 240 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: it's mostly targeting people specifically like communists um or Marks 241 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: Lendonist who like are just waiting around for the revolution 242 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: to happen and then don't do anything like that. Right, 243 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: that is that but but but but but I think 244 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: this is this is why it's a text that's like 245 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: that's not good for the moment, because our problem isn't that, 246 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: like like the problem right now isn't that there's no 247 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: one like there's no uprising on the horizon, Like everyone's 248 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: completely beaten down. No one's ever going to go into 249 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: his treats again. Our problem is that like there's just 250 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: there's there's there's there's periodic uprisings everywhere, and every single 251 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: time everyone is caught off guard, and every single time, 252 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: no one is able to actually sort of mobilize off 253 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: of it. And you know, like like like no, no one, 254 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: no one's been able to like pivot it into something 255 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: that's actually like transformative. But but but but I think that 256 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: that's a very different problem then the problem that desert 257 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: is because desert has already abandoned the possibility that an 258 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: uprising can win. That's I mean, it's yeah. And then 259 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: let's specifically been the idea of like global revolution, right, 260 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: that is, that is the thing that specifically targeting there's 261 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: things smaller specific they're saying, like smaller local things actually 262 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: can't succeed in a lot of ways. But they're trying 263 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: to tie this idea of global revolution is like a 264 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: pacifying idea, right just waiting around for this to happen 265 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: and tying that to this at the time much more 266 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: niche idea. Now it's now it's way more popular. But 267 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: this idea of like global collapse and how people think 268 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: if they can people think believing in global collapse is 269 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: smarter than believing in global revolution. They think it's more realistic. 270 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: But the book saying no, this is this idea of 271 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: global collapse actually falls under all the same issues that 272 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: global revolution has. I think i'd want to um sort 273 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: of comments here um with regard to like the defeat 274 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: is sort of reading um in the text. I understand 275 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: that reading um. I mean personally, I distinguished in like 276 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: defeatism and dumerism, and I always think, like my own 277 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: personality and my own perspective kind of like inoculates me 278 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,239 Speaker 1: in a way from like adopting that kind of defeatist 279 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: attitude towards um, you know, change. But I don't think 280 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: the book is entirely um, you know, dismissive of like revolution. Um. 281 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: It just I think the main thrust of it is 282 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: that it's critically the idea of like one global revolution, 283 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: one global collapse. What it really emphasizes is that, you know, 284 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: climate change brings new possibilities for new anarchies plural to 285 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: develop worldwide and responds changing circumstances. But at the same time, 286 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: you know, in some areas things are going to get 287 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: worse than some areas things are going to get better. 288 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: And it's not that really one broadbrush could be applied 289 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: to the entire earth, but I think, I mean, I 290 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: think like this, this is another thing that they're really 291 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: guilty of, especially like there's an entire section in here 292 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: where they just keep writing about Africa and it's like well, 293 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: and then you know, and they'll get pressed on it 294 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: and they'll be like, no, no, we mean sub Saharan Africa, 295 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: and it's like, what are you talking like. They they 296 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: won't name countries, they won't name movements, they won't name people. 297 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 1: It's just they'll just write something about the whole of 298 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 1: Sub Saharan Africa. And it's just like, well, I think 299 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: that's evidence of the kind of of what Garrison was 300 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: talking about this, right, And this is something you see 301 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: all over the place with people writing about politics, with 302 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: people trying to write about like particularly revolutionary politics, UM 303 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: in a global sense, and I think it's usually a 304 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: mistake to do that, UM for the reasons we've kind 305 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,640 Speaker 1: of discussed. Any time I see a left wing even 306 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: as somebody who I think is generally on point. Who 307 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: starts talking about, for example, like extending their theories about 308 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: revolutionary politics to places I happen to know just a 309 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: little bit about, it's always very clear like, oh you 310 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: don't know shit about Syria. Oh you don't know shit 311 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: about Libya. Oh you don't know shit about Angle like um. 312 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: And that's and that's like not even a moral failing. 313 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: It's just that it's impost It's it's impossible really to 314 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: have in depth knowledge of like what's actually going on 315 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 1: in those racism, what's going on in those revolutions. It's 316 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: why people default so much to the whole. Well, whatever 317 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: side the US is on must be the bad side, 318 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: and whatever side the Russians on must be the good side. 319 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: It's the easiest way to look at that ship. Um. 320 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: I don't I think that's. I think that's a worthwhile 321 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: critique to make, and it's a critique to make any 322 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: time that it happens. Um. I agree with Garrison and 323 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: with Andrew that I think the thing that is that 324 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: desert gets right. Um. And the thing that I've seen 325 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: in my own life is that like the opportunities we 326 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,360 Speaker 1: should be looking for are not suddenly that some sort 327 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 1: of global revolution sweeps all of the things we don't 328 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: like out of power and magically institutes something better comprehensively 329 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: across the globe. It's it's it's room for little anarchies. 330 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: It's what we saw in northeast Syria, right where the 331 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: government pulls out and people have an opportunity to do 332 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: something not perfect, but better. And I think that is 333 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: that's kind of one of the things we talked about 334 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: a lot on this show. That's why a mutual aid 335 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: is valuable, It's why building these connections are valuable. It's because, um, 336 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: as things crumble, there will be opportunities two in local areas, 337 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: piecemeal institute and and push through for more just and 338 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: and better ways of living. Um And I think that 339 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: if you're looking at kind of the broad level potentially 340 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: optimistic point is that when you have enough of those 341 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: and when they spread well enough, and if communication is 342 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: good enough, maybe the things that work will get adopted 343 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: on a wider uh scale. And there's always the opportunity 344 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: that when enough, when ideas spread far enough, they have 345 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: a tipping point and and they go viral, you know, 346 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: so to speak. But I I I don't I think 347 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: that While there's a lot of specifics that Desert gets wrong, 348 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: I do think they were ahead of the curve and 349 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: recognizing that, and I think it's it's a more productive 350 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 1: way to look at the idea of revolutionary change. Then 351 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: we're going to finally have nineteen seventeen. But everywhere, you know, 352 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: m throughout to the Africa chapter. The impression that I 353 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: got while reading that chapter, and I think the book 354 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: itself references Um Samba Um. I got the impression that 355 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 1: the author had read UM Afghan Anarchism, History of a 356 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:33,199 Speaker 1: movement by Sam Member and they were just kind of 357 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: like inspired by that, I would say, because as I 358 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: do point out, they didn't like specify the specific cultures, 359 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: which is an issue considering, you know, the tendency that 360 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: Westerners have of you know, being to Africa this large 361 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: brush as if it's you know, all one way or 362 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: the other. Um. But I think what we do see now, 363 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 1: UM is you know, from the Horn of Africa to 364 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: South Africa to Nigeria too, I mean recently Sudan. I believe, Um, 365 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: there are Africans, smaller number organizing under the mount of anarchism, 366 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: and they are anarchic elements that continue to persist on 367 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:22,199 Speaker 1: the continent. Yeah, I mean I think that's like, you know, 368 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: I mean one of the things that they sort of 369 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: got they got right, was about how like this the 370 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: sort of the the sort of renewal the spread of 371 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: urban anarchism they're talking about like Chile in particular, they 372 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: got right, Um, Indonesia Bangladestra somewhat. But but but I 373 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: think I think there's there's another like my, my, my, my, 374 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: my biggest issue with them in terms of the way 375 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: they think about ecological stuff that this comes This is 376 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: something they talk about with like they have this thing 377 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: where they think that forger societies are like, Okay, they're 378 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: they're they're they're they're they're more careful than most people. 379 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 1: To frame it as like the forging soci ideas can 380 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: be a gallitarian, but I think they wind up talking 381 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 1: about these sort of like the way that sort of 382 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: forging nomadic society sort of inherently defy the boundaries of 383 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: the state, and like that's true, but you can also 384 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: have like nomadic forging societies that have that are you know, 385 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: hereditary slave societies. And this is this is a problem 386 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: because there's a there's a lot in here about that 387 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: that that's about sort of like they're they're you know, 388 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: they're they're taking this a sort of like soft anti 389 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: se of right. Yeah, it has a few lids where 390 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: it does specifically say fialization is the cause of like 391 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 1: I think it's like the civilization is genocide, um, which yeah, 392 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: and that can't silly, Yeah, by civilization genocide. Sure if 393 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: they're saying that they do cause genocide, if you're if 394 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: you're trying to make the case that it seems to 395 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: be that civilizations, Uh, well, I don't know every civilization 396 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: does not commit genocide, but no, but civilization gives you 397 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: a constant Yeah, civilization gives you the framework that makes 398 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 1: genocide possible, well, like potentially intentional genocide possible. I don't 399 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: know that I would agree with that, because I think 400 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: you see examples of genocide from hunter gatherer societies and 401 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: from from so societies, and that the obviously documentation on 402 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: that isn't as extensive because we weren't documenting things for 403 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: a lot of it. But you do have examples from 404 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,919 Speaker 1: from what we know of like um, the America's of 405 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: their word genocides committed by societies we would call stateless. 406 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: So I think I might argue that like genocide is 407 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: a thing that human beings do, and civilization because it 408 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: allows us to do everything on a larger scale, allows 409 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: us to do way better genocides. That's definitely in our 410 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 1: I think. I think my problem with it is is 411 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: that they're going back into this sort of like that 412 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: they're going back into the you know, there's this inherent 413 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: binarya between forgers and sales societies and that you know, 414 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: and and specifically they think that that that these sorts 415 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: that the foragers ideas are you know, inevitably gonna become 416 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 1: a gualantarian. It's like that's not true, and it's not 417 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: true in ways that you can see right now in 418 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: like like they're like they're like there are lots of 419 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,719 Speaker 1: places right now where you can look at you know, 420 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,479 Speaker 1: forging anxieties that are incredibly right. Like there's there's like, 421 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: for example, you get sort of you get the Filani 422 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: joining like right wing Islamas groups, right and that like 423 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. I think it has a problem 424 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: with It's the same thing as looking at indigenous societies 425 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: and and seeing them all on one side of the 426 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: fight with with colonizing nations as supposed I'm reading a 427 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 1: book about the history of them a Poochay right now, 428 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,959 Speaker 1: which are historically like the indigenous group in Chile that 429 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: resisted the law, and the indigenous group really and you 430 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: could argue in all of Latin America that resisted the 431 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 1: longest and most effectively. But even then, when you look 432 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: at like the campaign to the Chilean government in the 433 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: eighteen sixties and eighteen eighties, large like significant chunks of 434 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: the Mapoocha sided with the government against other mapoo Chay 435 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: and like that's the like, it's it's always a mistake. 436 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: I think this is a good one of the things 437 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 1: that you get out of the dawn of everything. It's 438 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: always a mistake to like look at any of these groups, 439 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: hunter gatherers, stateless societies is like one thing or another. 440 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: They're people and some of them sucked just like yeah 441 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: they're yeah anyway, Yeah, there's there's one thing that I 442 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 1: wanted to sort of push back against. Robbert, you had 443 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: said that genocide is a thing that humans do. Um. 444 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 1: I don't think I agree with that assessment um in 445 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 1: this sense, or at least I'd rather I would like 446 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: to clarify um. Okay, if you an opportunity to clarify 447 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: what you mean by that. I you know, I don't 448 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: know that it's just humans, but I think that genocide 449 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: is a thing that as long as we have evidence 450 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,640 Speaker 1: in recorded history, it seems like we have done not 451 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: just against are not just against other humans, but against 452 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: other kind of hominid species. We have we have examples 453 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: of things that it seems fair to call genocide, going 454 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 1: back further than we have any kinds of written records. Um, 455 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 1: you know, villages in the Balkans that were you know, 456 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: burnt in people who like groups of people, tribes and whatnot, 457 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: who seem to have been killed in mass and you know, 458 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 1: there's there's other theories for some of that. Some of 459 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: them may have been like people trying to stop a play. 460 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: We don't plague or whatever. Like. There's not any kind 461 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: of comprehensive solidity. But what we do know is that 462 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: as long as we have documentations of humans doing things, 463 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: we have documentations of things that we could call genocide. 464 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: I see, I see, look look into that a bit more. 465 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: I appreciate the glarification. Yeah, can I can I do 466 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 1: a Balkans pivot because there's a there's a there's a 467 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: thing like like it genuinely disturbed me reading it in 468 00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: here about the Serbs dream read that the Bosnian genocide 469 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: were so that they're they're they're quoting. Its disturbing about that. 470 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but this is this is a I uh okay, 471 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: So they're they're they're doing they're they're reading a quote 472 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 1: from the book Gypsies, Wars and Other Instances of the 473 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: wild where he's talking this is about the Boston genocide. 474 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: How is this possible in Europe at the end of 475 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 1: the twentieth century was the question that played obsessively through 476 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: my mind. What the war in former Yugoslavia forced us 477 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 1: to suggest the fact that people proved willing to make 478 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: a conscious and active choice to embrace regression, barbarity and 479 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: return to the wildness. Take the serve fighters who dreamed 480 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: of a return to the Serbia of the epic poems 481 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: were quote there was no electricity, no computers, when the 482 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: serves were happy and had no cities, the breeding ground 483 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: of all evil. And then this is this is the 484 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: next thing that's that's the text coming back and commenting 485 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: on it that some modern day militias reflect romantic desires, 486 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: while shelling towns, massacring villages, and being killed in turn 487 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 1: should neither surprise us nor necessarily fully validate romance. It does, however, suggest, 488 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 1: along with the honest expression of joy and destruction mouth 489 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: by some soldiers in every war, as well as many anarchists, 490 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: that there was a coupling of some sort between a 491 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: generalized urge to destroy and disgusted at a complex human society. 492 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: And there's there's there's another part um only later on 493 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: they're talking about ethnic diversity and autonomy will often emerge 494 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: both from mutual aid and community and animosity between communities. 495 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 1: I'd like to think, and our history back this up, 496 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 1: that self adantified anarchists will never inflict such pain as 497 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: Serb nationalist militias, an example that shows purposely for the Repugnicans. 498 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: But we should admit that our wish to function up 499 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: is partly driven by the same urge to civilizational dismemberment 500 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: that can be found in many interethnic conflicts and in 501 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: the minds of fighters more generally. And I think that's fucked. 502 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: I think that's true. That's just I think there's commenting 503 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: a specific type of anarchist literature, which is like the 504 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: make total destroy thing. And yeah, I've definitely I have 505 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: observed that in people the same the same urge that 506 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: you're you're so broken down by everything that the only 507 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: urge that is the only creative urge you have is 508 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: to destroy the things around you. I've seen that. I 509 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: don't think they're necessarily celebrating that, but they're pointing out 510 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: that that urge can be there. When I think they 511 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: get really wrong here is that I don't think that's 512 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: the urge that that is is like that, that's when 513 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: when when you're dealing with interethnic conflict, when you're dealing 514 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: with genocide, I don't think that's the urge that's going on. 515 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: It'sc s pratically with the Serbs, because the Serbs, like 516 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: you know, okay, like when when when an anarchist is 517 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: doing mate total destroying right there, you know there, like there, 518 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: there's there's a very specific set of things they're attacking 519 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: or they're you know, they're attacking building, the attacking the 520 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: physical infrastructure of the world. When the Serbs are doing 521 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: the Bosnian genocide, like that, they have a very specific 522 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: thing they're doing, which is killing Bosnian Muslims. And I 523 00:29:53,840 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: think that's extremely different urge than the sort of like 524 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think that's about sort of what 525 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: it's civilizational dismemberment or whatever. That's about Islamophobia and genocide. 526 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: And I think that's a different I think the genocidal 527 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: impulse is a I think a very different one than 528 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: the sort of the like the impulse to break the 529 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,959 Speaker 1: society that has harmed you. Yeah, I think it's important 530 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: to draw a distinction between you can kill a shipload 531 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: of people without it being a genocide, um. And I 532 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: think and it's also one of those things I think 533 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: sometimes why people I think why there's hesitation to see 534 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: certain acts in early history of genocide is that they're 535 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: not as complete as modern genocide. But but what a 536 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: genocide really is, and I think it's important to lay 537 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: this out. It's not necessarily killing every member of an 538 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: ethnic group or a religious group or whatever kind of community. UM. 539 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: It is stopping their ability to propagate and continue themselves. 540 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: That's why things like destroying churches and destroying the cultural 541 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: distoral markers are part of genocide. And it's also why 542 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: a lot of genocides they left the women and children alive. 543 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: They would kill all the men, and they would take 544 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: the women in and they would breed with them. They 545 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: might kill the kids sometimes, but it was this The 546 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: goal was not necessarily where we need to kill all 547 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: of you, it's we want to kill this, this culture, 548 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: this population. Um I think the I think, yeah, I 549 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: think the parallel he's trying to make here or there 550 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: or she? Uh? Is that? Uh? That like that type 551 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: of like genocidal cultural destruction is targeted against specific groups. 552 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: The difference here is with this type of like you know, 553 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: he's he's writting this for other anarchists. He's pointing out, 554 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: like our destructive urge, our cultural urge isn't even for 555 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: a specific group, it's just for everything, and that can 556 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: be unhealthy sometimes sometimes there's ways to do make total destroy. 557 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: That's totally fine, but that can go to unhealthy places. Now, 558 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: he's not equating like ethnic cleansing with that. He's like 559 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: they are like they are different. But when when your 560 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: total destroy urges against all of culture, then yeah, that 561 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: that can like that's something you should probably ponder. Yeah, 562 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: I mean that's definitely I would agree that that's the 563 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: thing that's potentially problematic. Right, Like with a number of 564 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,479 Speaker 1: different desires. Uh, there's a way in which that can 565 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: lead to people doing really fucked up things. Yeah, it's 566 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: like it's like it's pointing out that that type of 567 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: accelerationism not specific to ideology, but just like accelerationism in general. 568 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I think when I when I talk about 569 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: things like the fact that because not every culture commits 570 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: genocides and every civil civilization does, um, and throughout history 571 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,719 Speaker 1: there have been more that found the idea repugnant than 572 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: found the idea acceptable. Um. But it is really a 573 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: consistent thing in history. And I think the lesson with 574 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: that isn't necessarily that everything could end in genocide. So 575 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: I don't think the lesson is necessarily like, oh you 576 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: should look at make total destroy as if you know, 577 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,479 Speaker 1: the this kind of trend in anarchist thought could lead 578 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: to genocide. It's that people in groups are nearly always 579 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 1: capable of killing a shipload of other people for a 580 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: variety of reasons if applied in the proper ways, And 581 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: so those of us who seek mass movement should always 582 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: be conscious of that, because human beings in large groups 583 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: can do wonderful things, but there's a long history of 584 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: them doing really fucked up ship sometimes in ways that 585 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: surprised the people that got the large group of human 586 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: beings together in the first place. The other thing I 587 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: wanted to bring up this kind of more circling back 588 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: to the dum kind of idea UM, because yeah, a 589 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: big part of the book is trying purposely is to 590 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: disolution people with this idea of global revolution and dissolution 591 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: people with the idea that we can save the earth 592 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: because we can't UM. So that's a big thing. And 593 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: first I think I think for some people, if you 594 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: stop right there and you that's how you end that thought, Yes, 595 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: that does lead to dumorism, obviously, like that that is, 596 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: that is, but the books, the book doesn't stop there. 597 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: The book continues on from there. Now they continue on 598 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: from a nihilistic standpoint. I'm not a nihilist. I prefer absurdism. 599 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: I prefer discordionism. But those two things are pretty caught 600 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: like there. They are more similar than not. UM is 601 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: that you can be disillusioned with global revolution and the 602 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: idea to save the earth, but that should not change 603 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: what we do or how we feel or operate as anarchists. 604 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,879 Speaker 1: It's not that we should be disillusioned and then do 605 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: nothing and step aside that we should be disillusioned, and 606 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 1: then find that disillusionment itself a form of liberation, like 607 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: the freeing nature of being free from this idea of 608 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,439 Speaker 1: revolution is that like, no, we are living our lives now. 609 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: Don't live for a revolution. Live your life now and 610 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: do things now, because that's what you actually have. So 611 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: it's like that type of nihilistic, absurdist discordion things. This is, 612 00:34:58,680 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: this is, this is this is where I come back 613 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: have a problems with it again because this this is 614 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: literally just there is no alternative except it's it's yeah, 615 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: and that's do anargy. But I mean, but that's how 616 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: I live like that like that, I think, I think 617 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 1: this is a bad I think that's a bad plan. 618 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: And I think if if you look, if you look 619 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 1: at what happens with because you know, this, this was 620 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: the thing that was really big in the American anarchist movement, 621 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: like in you know, from about just and seventeen like 622 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 1: roughly now, and it's like people were rising too. Yeah 623 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: that didn't succeed like that, like not really like but 624 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: I think like like this is like I think I 625 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: think this is like like one of the reasons it 626 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: didn't work, Like, okay, this is like the thing that's important. 627 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:42,359 Speaker 1: One of the things is the point of revolutions, even 628 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,720 Speaker 1: when they don't succeed, is that for a very brief window, 629 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: you actually can like it becomes it becomes possible to 630 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: imagine the other world. And what what What this entire 631 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: thing is saying is don't do that. That's not that's 632 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: not that's that's that's that is not what it absolutely not. 633 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,919 Speaker 1: This is okay, I can I finish that sentence? Yeah, 634 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: Like yeah, okay, so what what what what? What I'm 635 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: saying here is that what what they've abandoned, right, the 636 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: thing that they're giving up when they when they give 637 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: up revolution, when they're like this is a progressive myth, 638 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: this is like uh theology. What what they've abandoned completely 639 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: is our human capacity to actually shape a different world. 640 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: What they're arguing is that like the the you know, 641 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 1: essentially that the combination of ecological and social forces are 642 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: strong enough that humans humans no longer have the capacity 643 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: to reshape the world into a way that is different 644 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: than this, and that this is now the eternal present, 645 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,839 Speaker 1: and you know, and and yeah, inside of the eternal present. 646 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:45,399 Speaker 1: They're saying, you should be fighting for the same things 647 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: you should be fighting for, like you know, you should. 648 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: You should be in your own sort of local domain. 649 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: You should be like, I mean, there are some of 650 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: the recommendations are wild, Like I think, I think their 651 00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: conservation stuff is sketchy given, I mean, it doesn't but 652 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: it doesn't apply to an eternal present though, Like they 653 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: lay out, like the world is changing a lot and 654 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: will for the next fifty years, Like there will be 655 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: massive changes and how things are set up in the 656 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 1: next like in the next century, and we need to 657 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: take advantage of that. We need to turn those liabilities 658 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: into assets and start making those little anarchies like that. 659 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: That that is what it's trying to do. And I 660 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 1: would add as well that as it points out the 661 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: situations in plastic stooke in Bangladesh, a difference in the 662 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: present and will be in the future. You know. What 663 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: I think is is trying to be sort of drilled 664 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 1: in here is that at least in the text and 665 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 1: how I read it um is that yes, things will 666 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: be different in different parts to wood and probably maybe 667 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: they won't be this, you know, or as the what 668 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: this is they won't be you know, this one global revolution. 669 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, Um, I think 670 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: what it's trying to emphasize is that we don't have 671 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 1: the structures. And I think what part of what is 672 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,360 Speaker 1: trying to emphasize is that we don't have instructures in 673 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: place right now to launch an instruction we can meaningfully defend. 674 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:13,720 Speaker 1: And so that is the sort of thing we should 675 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: be focusing on. But but but they, but they, but 676 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: this and this, this, this is going back to my 677 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: problem with it, going going back to the thing where 678 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,279 Speaker 1: they go on the rant about how anarchists are like 679 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 1: a permanent cultural majority and will never become a majority. 680 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: Is that even even in situations where people had that 681 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,359 Speaker 1: capacity and did it they go back, they project back 682 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: onto it, go no, no, no, no no, they couldn't have 683 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: done that. Like, it's it's not about it's it's it's 684 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 1: they they have a belief and this is something that 685 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 1: they do explicitly say that that anarchist will always be 686 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,360 Speaker 1: a permanent minority right there. There will always be an 687 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 1: active but permanent minority. And that is the like like 688 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: that specifically, I think is just an actual rejection of 689 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 1: the belief that we collectively can make a better future. 690 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 1: Because if if, if you think our ideas that you know, 691 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 1: if being free right, if if a society, if you 692 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: think that that is permanently always going to be a minority, 693 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 1: you are you know, you are condemning. You're condemning the 694 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 1: future to the people who don't believe that. And and 695 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: I I understand why, especially if you know, if, if, if, 696 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,760 Speaker 1: if the only thing you've ever known is fifty years 697 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,359 Speaker 1: of when the new Liberals actually did the thing right. 698 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: They took over the entire world, restructure of the entire 699 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: world economy, seized every government. Like if if that's what 700 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: you live through, I understand why you would think that. 701 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 1: But I think the fact that it was possible to 702 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: do it from the other direction is in some ways 703 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 1: a sense that like, yeah, we could do it too. 704 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,359 Speaker 1: I don't know, Sorry, I will stop harping on this 705 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: one specific point. It just extremely annoys me. I think 706 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:53,839 Speaker 1: it's not giving up the idea that the world can 707 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 1: be better. It's that like, we don't need to have 708 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: the majority of people be anarchists to make the old better. 709 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: We can still spread our own anarchies and people don't 710 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: need to self subscribe as anarchists. But as long as 711 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 1: we start building those systems in the places around us, 712 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: people start using them, and people might start like living 713 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: them out, even if they don't call themselves anarchists, right, Like, 714 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,399 Speaker 1: the majority of people will probably prefer some some type 715 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: of state or government. Right. You can even look at 716 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 1: ROSA and be like, yeah, it's still is state issue 717 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 1: in some ways, but some ways not, right, Like, it's 718 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 1: it's going We're not going to get an anarchist world. 719 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:31,319 Speaker 1: That's not going to happen, but we can make it 720 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,759 Speaker 1: better through the lens of anarchy. And I think that's 721 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: what it's kind of trying to say. Yeah, I I 722 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,720 Speaker 1: think it's it's worth acknowledging that, Like, yeah, the majority 723 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 1: of people are never going to be what anarchists are 724 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: right now, which is people who comprehensively reject the systems 725 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: they live in. Most people are always going to think 726 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: more like well, I want to be comfortable, I want 727 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: to I support changes kind of that that, you know, 728 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: fix this thing that I've noticed as a problem or 729 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: that thing. Most people are never going to comprehensively reject 730 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,720 Speaker 1: the system. But I do have hope that in time 731 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 1: and given you know space to build things and show 732 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,759 Speaker 1: people other ways and improve life for people. You can 733 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,719 Speaker 1: get to a point where most people believe a lot 734 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: of the things that I think are important. Yeah, And 735 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 1: I think that's what's time. I think that's sorry. I 736 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: think that's what the as specificitis UM tend to advocate 737 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 1: for in terms of through the process of social institution 738 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:31,320 Speaker 1: in these larger movements, generalizing the ideas of anarchist ideas 739 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,279 Speaker 1: as a whole, making them more common throughout the population. 740 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:36,800 Speaker 1: It's only trying to get each and every poost in 741 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 1: the world to self identify as an anarchist, communist or whatever. 742 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 1: It's more so that you're trying to spread these ideas 743 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,800 Speaker 1: to the point where they are I suppose the common 744 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:55,320 Speaker 1: sentiment the popular will Yeah, like I it's it's um. 745 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 1: That's like the point of culture jamming and and and 746 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,880 Speaker 1: ship like that. Like it's the the idea that like 747 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't so much matter, like like like what matters 748 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 1: is inserting the things you think are important into the 749 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,839 Speaker 1: culture and getting people to identify with them and understand them. 750 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,279 Speaker 1: The terms that they specifically use aren't aren't as important, 751 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 1: like that that's not really what matters. Well, Okay, I 752 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: don't think they're arguing that though, because I mean, like 753 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 1: do they have lines like this. We cannot, however, remake 754 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 1: the entire world. There are not enough of us, there 755 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 1: never will be. But then you know, they like they 756 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 1: they specifically talk about the oh well, they don't have 757 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,440 Speaker 1: to all be anarchists, and you know, I mean, here's 758 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 1: their line. There was unfortunately little little evidence from history 759 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 1: that the working class, never mind anyone else, is intrinically 760 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: predisposed to libertarian and ecological revolution. Thousands of years of 761 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 1: authoritarian socialization favor of the jack boot. Neither we nor 762 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 1: anyone else could create a libertarian or global or ecological 763 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: global future by expanding social movements further. There is no 764 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 1: reason to think that in the absence of such a 765 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,400 Speaker 1: vast expanse, the global transformation concurrent toward desires will ever happen. 766 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,600 Speaker 1: I think, I think think the keyword there is global, Like, yeah, 767 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: that's they're trying to break with that, and it's important, 768 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: like they're writing this specifically for anarchists who are kind 769 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 1: of already nihilistic, kind of already anti sif right, they 770 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 1: are writing this for other anarchists that this isn't a 771 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: book to radicalize a normy or a communist by anarchists 772 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 1: for other anarchists to be like, hey, you already kind 773 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,400 Speaker 1: of think the world's kind of going to ship. Here's 774 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 1: a way that we can still do things despite the 775 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 1: world being shitty. Because once you're once you're disillusioned, it's 776 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,800 Speaker 1: hard to be illusioned again. Like it's it's hard once 777 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 1: you give up on the idea of global revolution, once 778 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 1: you give up in the idea of global collapse, it's 779 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,279 Speaker 1: hard to re enter those even if you see things 780 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,920 Speaker 1: happening the world, like there can still be uprisings and revolts, absolutely, 781 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,120 Speaker 1: but there is a distinction of between uprising and the 782 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:55,040 Speaker 1: revolts and like a global revolution right and specifically like 783 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:59,440 Speaker 1: the Marxist Leninist sounds. And I'd also like to um 784 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,839 Speaker 1: continue the paragraph you're reading from there. We had said 785 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 1: that as anarchists, sweet he had said, or they had 786 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,279 Speaker 1: said that, as anarchists, we are not the seed of 787 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: the future society in the shell of the old, but 788 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 1: merely one of many elements from which the future is forming. 789 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,239 Speaker 1: That's okay. When faced with such scale and complexity, there 790 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,560 Speaker 1: is value in non servile humility, even for in such Yeah, 791 00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:23,200 Speaker 1: but this this is just this is just giving up. 792 00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 1: This is this is the old. It's too complicated, it's 793 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 1: too like and like I think, I don't know, like 794 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:32,279 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's giving up on it's giving up 795 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: on trying to do any kind of on on like 796 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,719 Speaker 1: humans as a whole, trying to do any kind of 797 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 1: large scale like you know, like it's trying to do 798 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,399 Speaker 1: transformation of what the society. I disagree to continue that 799 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,840 Speaker 1: that coote to give up hope for global anarchists. Revolution 800 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,320 Speaker 1: is not to resign oneself to anarchy, remaining any to protest. 801 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,200 Speaker 1: Seaweed puts it well. Revolution is not everywhere or nowhere. 802 00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 1: Any bioregion can be liberated through a succession of events, 803 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: and strategy is based in the conditions unique to it, 804 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 1: mostly as the grip of facilitation that area weakens through 805 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 1: its own volition for the efforts of its inhabitants. So 806 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 1: aization didn't succeed every at once, and so it's undoing 807 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,440 Speaker 1: might only occur to varying degrees in different places at 808 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 1: different times. Even if an area is seemingly fully under 809 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:18,920 Speaker 1: the control of authority, there are always places to go 810 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: to live in, to love in, and to resist from, 811 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,920 Speaker 1: and we can extend those spaces. The global situation may 812 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 1: seem beyond us, but the local never is. And I 813 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 1: think that's beautiful. I think that's like a That's one 814 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,120 Speaker 1: of the things that keeps me alive is ideas like that, honestly. 815 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:41,040 Speaker 1: And at the same time, I also hold the opinion 816 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:45,720 Speaker 1: that none of us, including this author, is a fortune teller, 817 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,439 Speaker 1: you know. The desert's picture of the future is not 818 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:52,040 Speaker 1: the only possibility, you know, And I think in a 819 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,520 Speaker 1: lot of ways and a lot of always I believe 820 00:45:54,600 --> 00:46:01,919 Speaker 1: that they can and have already been proven wrong, you know. Like, 821 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 1: and there's an issue that I really take a lot 822 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:05,920 Speaker 1: of contention with the book. Part of the book that 823 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 1: really pisces me off is the sort of persistence of 824 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,719 Speaker 1: the overpopulation myth. Yeah, I don't remember it being so 825 00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,239 Speaker 1: consistent since I reread it um a couple of weeks ago. 826 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,400 Speaker 1: And also this sort of nonchalance the author seems to 827 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,600 Speaker 1: have about like mass die offs and that kind of thing, 828 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:27,920 Speaker 1: you know. I think that that's very troubling to me. 829 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,839 Speaker 1: That's very specific to It's a type of anti sive 830 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:35,240 Speaker 1: literature that's like we view civilization is going to progress 831 00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,840 Speaker 1: towards Jenna side anyway, and the way to actually avoid 832 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,480 Speaker 1: more deaths is to kind of help the collapse along 833 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,640 Speaker 1: because that will end civilization quicker. So therefore less people, 834 00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 1: less people will be born, and less people will have 835 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,759 Speaker 1: to die. So that's the type of thinking they have. 836 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:55,759 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily agree with that, um necessarily, but like, yeah, 837 00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,880 Speaker 1: that is that is very typical of this type of literature. 838 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,440 Speaker 1: So it gets because it is written mostly for other 839 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:06,200 Speaker 1: anti sid anarchists, but like, yeah, it's not like pro genocide. 840 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:08,399 Speaker 1: It's saying genocide will happen. So the way to make 841 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:13,440 Speaker 1: less of it is to actually kind of slowly start 842 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:17,919 Speaker 1: kind of help helping the crumbles along essentially and while 843 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,840 Speaker 1: still you know, making people's lives better in your immediate community, 844 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:24,040 Speaker 1: like with that, with that very local focus. So again 845 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:26,239 Speaker 1: not not saying I necessarily agree with that, but that's 846 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:31,520 Speaker 1: the that's the type of thought it's engaging with. I mean, 847 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,160 Speaker 1: I think that's true of some of it. But there 848 00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:39,360 Speaker 1: is definitely a lot of like panic about there's going 849 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:44,239 Speaker 1: to be nine billion people and like population grows. All 850 00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:47,040 Speaker 1: the over population stuff is a little iffy. You know, 851 00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,759 Speaker 1: there is a there's a discussion to have on caring capacity, 852 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:51,919 Speaker 1: but we are not there yet. We right now we 853 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 1: way overproduced for them for the amount of people we have. Yeah, 854 00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,080 Speaker 1: that and that I don't know. That also fresh it 855 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:04,480 Speaker 1: in me immensely. They're like, yeah, we we have consider 856 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:06,279 Speaker 1: they're talking about carring capacity right and they're like, oh, 857 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 1: we already can't. We have a billion people going hungry. 858 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:10,760 Speaker 1: And it's like, yeah, but that's not about the carrying capacity. 859 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,759 Speaker 1: That's just that's that's destrition. Which was literally that and 860 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,400 Speaker 1: that idea gained more prevalence after Dessert was written. We 861 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:22,040 Speaker 1: kind of more understood, like like culturally that it is 862 00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,840 Speaker 1: a distribution issue not necessarily a production issue. Now we 863 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,160 Speaker 1: do overproduce, right because and the amount of production we 864 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,879 Speaker 1: have contributes this tough like climate change and that is bad. 865 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,440 Speaker 1: So we should tone down production, but we should make 866 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 1: the ways that it's more sustainable and ecological. Um. Yeah, 867 00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,560 Speaker 1: I think that does point towards the data nature of 868 00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,759 Speaker 1: the text. I think Also my last like thing with 869 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:48,120 Speaker 1: it is I think I think it could have benefited 870 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,120 Speaker 1: a lot from like in an indigenous stewardship perspective, because 871 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,399 Speaker 1: the way it thinks about its particularly the way things 872 00:48:54,440 --> 00:49:00,640 Speaker 1: but wildness versus conservation is just very messy, and yeah, 873 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,319 Speaker 1: if it falls, it falls. It does a better job 874 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,080 Speaker 1: of it than some other antis of things that I've seen, 875 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 1: but it definitely falls into the like trap of like, 876 00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,920 Speaker 1: here is the wild and then any attempt to manage 877 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:19,120 Speaker 1: it is uh, you know, is civilization and you need 878 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:20,719 Speaker 1: to go back to the wild, and it's like, well, 879 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:27,000 Speaker 1: this is already stewarded and managed. That is the one. Yeah, 880 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,239 Speaker 1: it does fall on that slope of like nature being 881 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,959 Speaker 1: another that is sacred, which isn't necessarily a great idea, 882 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,600 Speaker 1: nor is it really true. Yeah, this is very two 883 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:41,880 Speaker 1: ten two ten. Yeah, right, So I think the book 884 00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,840 Speaker 1: is critical conceitation and that sort of binary way, and 885 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:51,800 Speaker 1: I agree that indigenous stewardship perspective was sorely needed. But 886 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,520 Speaker 1: at the same time, I do think that the way 887 00:49:54,560 --> 00:50:00,560 Speaker 1: that the book criticizes um wherever just points out um 888 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,440 Speaker 1: the sual conservation may have been and may still be 889 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,919 Speaker 1: new for some people. You know, the idea that these 890 00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:14,960 Speaker 1: sorts of government conservation projects which sort of preside over 891 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,560 Speaker 1: this sort of static vision of nature and ecology and 892 00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:23,960 Speaker 1: stuff that is supposedly threatened by humanity. UM. I think 893 00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:28,680 Speaker 1: criticizing that approach to nature it's good. I mean the 894 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:32,280 Speaker 1: sort of romanticization of the wild that is very typical 895 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:38,200 Speaker 1: of anti Seve text and thought. UM is very much 896 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:44,880 Speaker 1: anti Sieve. But I do believe that people should look 897 00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:52,560 Speaker 1: ah or should rather resist these sorts of conservation impulse. 898 00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,520 Speaker 1: As I was rereading it a couple of weeks ago, 899 00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:01,040 Speaker 1: I wanted to know, UM, what you guy's thoughts of 900 00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,200 Speaker 1: the section of the book that speaks of the different 901 00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,120 Speaker 1: modern different the the idea of fourth and fifth generation 902 00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:17,920 Speaker 1: war Oh boy, that's a UM that has been UM 903 00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:25,000 Speaker 1: sort of a contributional approach to analyzing conflict so figured 904 00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,000 Speaker 1: out as you have been in you know, actual war 905 00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:33,080 Speaker 1: zoons robot that you might have a thing to see. UM. 906 00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:35,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it's the kind of thing that we should 907 00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:39,799 Speaker 1: probably cover in in detail on because this is a 908 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,600 Speaker 1: lot of like William Lynde stuff. I think he's the 909 00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:44,280 Speaker 1: guy who came up with the idea of like fourth 910 00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,640 Speaker 1: generation war less at least and it's UM. It's basically 911 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:51,360 Speaker 1: the idea. It's the idea that warfare UM today is 912 00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,440 Speaker 1: conducted through a lot of stuff that's not conventional weaponry, right, 913 00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:00,920 Speaker 1: So stuff like UM, like like like putting networks together 914 00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:04,960 Speaker 1: to like push social division, you know through UM, social 915 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:10,120 Speaker 1: media UM, or carrying out cyber attacks on infrastructure, disinformation UM, 916 00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:13,520 Speaker 1: all of that kind of stuff, which is I think accurate. 917 00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:15,920 Speaker 1: I've been reporting on what you could call fifth generation 918 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:23,920 Speaker 1: warfare since some UM. I think it's I think to 919 00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,440 Speaker 1: the extent that it's relevant here. I think one thing 920 00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:28,839 Speaker 1: that people on the left need to acknowledge is that 921 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:33,400 Speaker 1: they have UM been blindsided by the effectiveness that the 922 00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:38,520 Speaker 1: far right has adapted to UM the key components of 923 00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,160 Speaker 1: this kind of warfare. And I think nothing is more 924 00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:45,080 Speaker 1: key than social engineering and disinformation UM. And they've been 925 00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:48,719 Speaker 1: much more successful at it over the last release in 926 00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:52,239 Speaker 1: twos and fifteen in particular, UM than the left hast 927 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:56,120 Speaker 1: by basically everywhere, every single and by I think, every 928 00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:59,040 Speaker 1: single measure of of success. And I think this is 929 00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:04,040 Speaker 1: something we should say in depth for another day, UM. 930 00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:07,480 Speaker 1: But I think that it is worth acknowledging that this 931 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,479 Speaker 1: is And I also think that and this is again 932 00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,080 Speaker 1: part of a bigger conversation. We talked about the concept 933 00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:15,240 Speaker 1: of like culture jamming. When we talked about like Operation 934 00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,799 Speaker 1: mind Fuck you know, which is Discordian idea. Um, all 935 00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:22,080 Speaker 1: of which you can see is kind of pre predecessors 936 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,920 Speaker 1: to the concepts of fifth generation warfare. I think there's 937 00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:27,600 Speaker 1: a strong argument to be made that those efforts by 938 00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:32,480 Speaker 1: leftists in the eighties and nineties in particular, actually contributed 939 00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,560 Speaker 1: to the substantial right wing victories that we're seeing right 940 00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:39,200 Speaker 1: now in this space. UM. And I think maybe it's 941 00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:41,719 Speaker 1: I think there's a number of reasons for that, um, 942 00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,800 Speaker 1: including some to some extent, the idea of arrogance that 943 00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,440 Speaker 1: um that what that we were just too smart, that 944 00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:49,680 Speaker 1: they were never going to figure out how to utilize 945 00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,280 Speaker 1: the same means we had, or to kind of judo 946 00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,280 Speaker 1: like take the momentum for that and spin it around 947 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,760 Speaker 1: on us. But they were and they did, and um, yeah, 948 00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:00,880 Speaker 1: that'll that'll lead into another or episode. We'll have to 949 00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:03,840 Speaker 1: talk about this in more detail. That's something like Grant 950 00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:06,920 Speaker 1: Morrison actually talks a lot about in regards to discordionism 951 00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:10,319 Speaker 1: and this type of how how you know he used 952 00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,520 Speaker 1: to work for a company called Disinformation back when disinformation 953 00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:17,600 Speaker 1: was Yeah, and now it's like one of the leading 954 00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:21,239 Speaker 1: castes of mass death in the world right, So he 955 00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:23,560 Speaker 1: that is something that Morrison talks about a lot in 956 00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:26,719 Speaker 1: terms of how they did have that arrogance and now 957 00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,239 Speaker 1: the same forces that they used in hopes of making 958 00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:31,960 Speaker 1: the world better and now being used to regress the 959 00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:36,160 Speaker 1: world and make it worse. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I had 960 00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:38,799 Speaker 1: a big copy of Disinformation on my coffee table when 961 00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:45,520 Speaker 1: I was nineteen. I just ordered good there's some fun 962 00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:51,600 Speaker 1: essays in their garret. Um, all right, that'll probably, I mean, 963 00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:53,359 Speaker 1: did you have more to say on that? And yeah, 964 00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,200 Speaker 1: I just wanted to say that, you know, regardless of 965 00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:01,879 Speaker 1: the unsettent future, UM, regardless of your stands on get 966 00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:07,280 Speaker 1: its message however flawed. UM here now as the minor 967 00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:13,319 Speaker 1: goods in Alice Huxley's Island so often repeat UM, we 968 00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:15,840 Speaker 1: can and should pay attention to what we can do 969 00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:20,120 Speaker 1: to support ourselves for whatever outcome you go through, you know, 970 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:25,320 Speaker 1: projects within the spaces we inhabit. I believe that anarchism 971 00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,319 Speaker 1: could be the seed of the new will. I do 972 00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,560 Speaker 1: believe that we have an impact a huge impact on 973 00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:35,279 Speaker 1: society and on politics, and I believe there are still 974 00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:42,880 Speaker 1: many possibilities for liberty still. Yeah, I do as well. 975 00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:46,880 Speaker 1: I think that acknowledging you know, failures both of of 976 00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:51,439 Speaker 1: of you know ideas and of methods doesn't mean giving 977 00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,880 Speaker 1: up hope or or ignoring the successes of those same 978 00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:59,600 Speaker 1: things which which we're are also present. Um yeah, so 979 00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:05,319 Speaker 1: I don't know, stay optimistic. Read something. Uh doesn't have 980 00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:07,080 Speaker 1: to beat eert, but just go go read a thing. 981 00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:10,800 Speaker 1: Go read yeah, back of your shampoo. B but especially 982 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:14,880 Speaker 1: if it's Dr Brauner's a lot of good stuff in there. Um, 983 00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,319 Speaker 1: all right, that's gonna do it for us this week. 984 00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:26,120 Speaker 1: Take care for today. At least it could happen here 985 00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:28,800 Speaker 1: as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts 986 00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,440 Speaker 1: from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media 987 00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:33,279 Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the I Heart 988 00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:36,400 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 989 00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:39,080 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen here, updated 990 00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:42,600 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks 991 00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:43,160 Speaker 1: for listening.