1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to stuff 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: I've never told you protection I heart radio, Samantha. Would 3 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: you consider yourself a perfectionist? No emphatic. No, I am 4 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: a give up a list. That's the other thing I 5 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: have not heard it. No, I am more of those. 6 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: If I can't do it well, I won't do it 7 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: at all. So it's not necessarily perfectionism because I'm I'm 8 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: guessing that I can't do it, so therefore I don't 9 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: do it. But things that I'm like, i'm pretty confident in, 10 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: I will But that's about not necessarily it has to 11 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,639 Speaker 1: be perfect, but I just can do well in so 12 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: absolutely not. Would you say that, Uh, I would say 13 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: that I'm not a perfectionist, but there are certain aspects 14 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: of perfectionism. I do feel very strongly like I take 15 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 1: failure really harshly, and I was the kid who's like 16 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 1: getting eighty nine and my world is ruined. But at 17 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: the same time, I'm also if I don't deem it 18 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: worth it, like if it's just something I have to do, 19 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: and this is actually something I want to come back 20 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: and talk about in like a happy hour or something like, 21 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: because you and I were recently talking about cleaning and 22 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: how we feel like we have different compared to our mothers. 23 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: We have different levels of acceptable. And I would say 24 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: I'm still pretty clean, but compared to what my mom does, 25 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm it's chaos in here, and I just 26 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: don't to me as a single woman, who you know, 27 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: when I have guests over, I'm like, well, you're just 28 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: gonna have to put up with it. It doesn't feel 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: worth the effort of my time. It's not a priority 30 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: to me. And so in that way, I will take shortcuts. 31 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: I will take cleaning shortcuts. I take cooking shortcuts so 32 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: I don't have to do as many dishes. So I 33 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: guess there's certain aspects of my life where I've do 34 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: I get close to perfectionism. But there are others where 35 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,559 Speaker 1: I'm like, nope, right. I did get my head about 36 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: being the perfect girlfriend for a while, especially early on 37 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: right where I'm like, they're gonna they're gonna high tail 38 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: it unless I'm perfect. I think that's definitely like that 39 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: level of performance. Yeah, I get I need to be 40 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 1: seen has put together, which got me into trouble a lot. 41 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: People thought I was really together and organized. So when 42 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 1: I first started drama, she immediately threw me in to 43 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: be the stage manager. And if you know anything about drama, 44 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: that's the person that does everything outside of the director. 45 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: That person handles everything. I had never been in a 46 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: play before, right, and that's what happened. I was like, 47 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: what is happening? Why? Might because I seem to be 48 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: put together, so I strive for that. Yeah, but outside 49 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: of that in my life, I'm like, it's fine. Yeah, 50 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: that's another good point, because I feel like there are 51 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,959 Speaker 1: aspects of not I don't know if it's necessarily perfectionism, 52 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 1: but I don't want to let people down. I don't 53 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: want to let other people down. And so, as we've 54 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 1: talked about a lot, when it comes to people wanting 55 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: me to plan events or parties, I do it. I 56 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: try to do it so well because I don't want 57 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: to let them down, or even on the show. Especially 58 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: when I first started podcasting, I think I was so 59 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: afraid of being bad at it that I I kind 60 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: of hamstrung myself, like I was trying so hard to 61 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: be like universally liked and really good that it just 62 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: wasn't working for me or anyone else. Oh yeah, I 63 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: constantly feel like a failure. I feel like we need 64 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: to revisit our conversation about feeling like a failure because 65 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: the show, not because of the people, people are amazing, 66 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: but because I've not met the expectations that I think 67 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: I should have or that I think I should meet. 68 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: That I feel like a failed even though in actuality 69 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: we've been fine, right right, And that's that's something I 70 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: still struggle with is and we've talked about that before. 71 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: You know, some days when you're you have a deadline 72 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: for a variety of whatever reasons, external factors of internal factors. 73 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: Maybe the finished product is not what you wanted to 74 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: be and you just have to accept that. That can 75 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: be very hard to accept. Oh I don't accept it. 76 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: I definitely dwell and that and beat myself up for 77 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: a while and then loose sleep over it and then 78 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: try to forget it until I have another moment like, 79 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: oh my god, I remember that just did this? So 80 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: not really good about that? Yeah, the human brains really 81 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: mean about that? And why am I still remembering this 82 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: middle school incident? We don't need it. And I think 83 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: that this conversation around perfectionism and women, as we've said, 84 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: I'm interested to see I was playing out because now 85 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: that hooray, more and more people who are getting fully 86 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: vaccinated and we're slowly starting to go out into the 87 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: outside world again. I've heard from so many of my 88 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: mostly female friends this anxiety of like, quote unquote, I've 89 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: let myself go, like I don't feel good in my body, 90 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: I don't feel like. I had somebody over to my 91 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: apartment for the first time forever, and I had this 92 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 1: moment of like, should I be ashamed of the state 93 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 1: of my apartment? Having those questions? Yeah, when I walk 94 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: into someone, I get my parents house and it looks 95 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: like there's never been any dust anywhere, and I'll look 96 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: around and I see pockets of my dog's hair and corners. 97 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: I'm like, uh, I have done something wrong? Right, Yeah, no, 98 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: for sure, And this whole idea of you know, the 99 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: how does she do it? Woman? And and the like 100 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 1: added pressures of brotherhood, and especially during your pandemic, would 101 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: you be like maybe at a job and children and 102 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: like that level of expectation and perfectionism people put on 103 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: themselves just exhausting. I don't have those things, and I'm exhausted. Yep, 104 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: me too. Well, please enjoy this classic episode on perfectionism. 105 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Supports 106 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 107 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And last time on stuff I've Never 108 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: Told You, we talked all about anxiety. What a delightful 109 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: romp it was through all of mining Caroline's mental neurosis. Yeah, 110 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: so welcome to part two of that perfectionism. Yeah. Um, 111 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 1: this was so fascinating to learn about Caroline, because friends, 112 00:06:55,240 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: perfectionism is not what you think it is. Yeah, similar 113 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: to how we busted Smiths in our c D episode 114 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: where we were saying O c D is not just 115 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: keeping a clean closet. Perfectionism is not just the desire 116 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: to excel, to do really well, to have that clean 117 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: closet it is. It goes a little bit deeper than that. Yeah, 118 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: and it's very much linked to issues like O c D, anxiety, depression, 119 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,679 Speaker 1: and other things that we're going to talk about. And 120 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: there's also this underlying assumption that women are perfectionists, women 121 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: are likelier to try to be perfect in all things, 122 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: and we were trying to find whether that is actually 123 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: the case or whether that stereotype is just completely misunderstanding 124 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: what perfectionism really is, because it's another one of those 125 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: terms that's used very casually to refer to things that 126 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: it is actually not. Well. Yeah, and it's used whereas 127 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: an anxiety is something like I have anxiety and I 128 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: would like to overcome it, whether that's generalized anxiety disorder 129 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: or like panic disorder, or whether it's just your feeling 130 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: anxious before a test. Perfectionism, on the other hand, is 131 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: almost sometimes used as like a humble brad like, well, 132 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I've just got to bank all the cupcakes 133 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: for the PTA meeting because I'm just a perfectionists. Like 134 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: all right, Janice, we know you have a lot of 135 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: time and you you just you want to do this 136 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: and your cupcakes are so perfect. Or when Janice isn't 137 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: a job interview and you get that horrible job interview 138 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: question of you know, what's your biggest fault in life, 139 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 1: Janice responds, well, I'm a perfectionist. Well, we hope not 140 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: now that we know more about what perfectionism actually is 141 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: and that it has links to all sorts of terrible things. Yeah, 142 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 1: it's a really really unhealthy pattern, because I mean, if 143 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: you think about it, in pop culture. You have sort 144 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: of both ends of the spectrum, where you have Natalie 145 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: Portman as Nina in Black Swan, where it's whoa that 146 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: is super scary, and then on the comedic end of 147 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: the spectrum you have someone like Monica Geller in Friends. 148 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: Although I don't know why I needed to give her 149 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: last name, everyone knows her Justice Monica on Friends. But 150 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: you're a perfectionist, Yes i am. I'm terrified I'm going 151 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: to fail if I don't mention Geller and everyone will 152 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: hate me. Um. But you know she has all these 153 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 1: quirks where she has to clean all the time and 154 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: she's very intentional in her cooking ha ha ha. And 155 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: its attitudes about characters like Monica Geller that lead people 156 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: to feel like perfectionism is totally socially acceptable. It's not 157 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: a mental health condition that you might need help with 158 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: or that could signal a deeper mental health condition like 159 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: actual pathological anxiety or depression. Um, it's just you being 160 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: like super driven, right, You're just a Tracy Flick. That's 161 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: it exactly. So first, le's lay out what we're actually 162 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: talking about when we're talking about perfectionism, because, like we 163 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 1: have said, what it is not is just setting high 164 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: standards for yourself, just wanting to excel, being organized, having 165 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: some ambition in life. Yeah, so what it really is 166 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: is this drive to be perfect. I can't put enough 167 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: italics in bold and underline on the word perfect, or 168 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: at least the drive to seem perfect to other people 169 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: because inside you feel like an imposter, like a failure, 170 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 1: like this ugly person inside and out that I need 171 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: to do anything I can to portray myself as this 172 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: shiny perfect person and is the amazing Brine Brown, who 173 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: often writes for a magazine, puts it, perfectionism is a 174 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:48,839 Speaker 1: self destructive and addictive belief system that fuels this primary thought. 175 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: If I look perfect, live perfectly, and do everything perfectly, 176 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 1: I can avoid or minimize the painful feelings of shame, judgment, 177 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: and aim. And another way that it was put that 178 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 1: jumped out to me Caroline, was that perfectionism, while it 179 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: is so goal driven, it doesn't focus on success. It 180 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: only focuses on failure because you're ultimately driven by failure. 181 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: Because why do you need to be perfect because you're 182 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 1: terrified that you will fail? Right, which is so much 183 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: of the conversation when you get into imposter syndrome, which 184 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: we've done an episode on UM in terms of being 185 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: driven by I'm such a fake, I'm so dumb and unaccomplished, 186 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: and I need to work so hard to show that 187 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: I can pull this off basically. And some researchers distinguished though, 188 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: between what they term normal or adaptive perfectionism and neurotic 189 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: or maladaptive perfectionism, and they say that the adaptive type 190 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: propels you forward. Maybe this is, you know, more of 191 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: a synonym to being very goal or entoed, whereas maladaptive 192 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: creates that stress over failure. It's the stuff that Rene 193 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: Brown is talking about. Yeah, but today we're focusing in 194 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: on the type that is disruptive to functioning. Although, as 195 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,079 Speaker 1: we'll get into a little bit later, a lot of 196 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: people would argue that there is no adaptive versus maladaptive, 197 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 1: that perfectionism is purely maladaptive, that there's nothing adaptive about 198 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: wanting to be perfect, because there's no such thing as perfect. 199 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: And when you think about what perfect really means in 200 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: this context, it has so many different layers. You have 201 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 1: concerns about making mistakes, you have your own personal standards, 202 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: you have doubts about your actions or abilities, organization, parental expectations, criticism, 203 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: thinks that people say rudely on social media. Well, I 204 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: mean those are the literal dimensions of this condition known 205 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 1: as perfectionism. Once you get beyond just like the colloquial 206 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: like oh, I spent all night on those cut cakes. 207 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: I'm such a perfectionist. Once you get past that to 208 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: the actual debilitating stuff and you're reading studies about it, 209 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: things like concerns over making mistakes are cited in terms 210 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: of linking perfectionism to O C D anxiety and depression 211 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: and even suicidal tendencies. And so yeah, like I'm concerned 212 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: about making mistakes. I don't want to like do something 213 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: stupid when I'm driving, or like put the wrong word 214 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 1: in the podcast notes OLPs, I just drove my car 215 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: into a wall. Has happens. Um, this concern, this perfectionist 216 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: concern over mistakes is something that is debilitating. That it is, 217 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: like Kristen said that being driven by failure idea, and 218 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: it also manifests in different types, not that they're mutually exclusive. 219 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 1: And this also was really illuminating for me to read about. Um, 220 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: you have socially prescribed perfectionism, which is the belief that 221 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: others will value you only if you're perfect, and psychologist 222 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: Gordon Flett says that these people feel, quote, the better 223 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: I do, the better I'm expected to do so, rather 224 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: than like you bring the great cupcakes and everybody congratulates you. 225 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: It's like, oh God, well, now I've got to make 226 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: like a six tiered p t a cake for the 227 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: next meeting. And this is a little bit of a 228 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: side note, but this also reminds me of what we 229 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: were talking about a little bit. In our anxiety episode 230 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: of how UM. One researcher named Gene Twinge sites our 231 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: shift from intrinsic values to extrinsic values as a reason 232 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: why anxiety might be more on the rise, and that 233 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: whole socially prescribed perfectionism seems very much linked to extrinsic 234 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: values of how do I look to other people right? 235 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: How do I present myself absolutely well. Another type is 236 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: the self oriented perfectionism, and this is the internally debated 237 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: desire to be perfect. And there is a debate as 238 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: Flett talks about the psychologist Gordon Flett talks about over 239 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: whether this is a risk factor for other psychological disorders 240 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: or a disorder in and of itself. And that seems 241 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: to be the big conversation around perfectionism in general. Is 242 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: it a disorder, Yes, it's debilitating, but is it debilitating 243 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: and doesn't exist because you have something like generalized anxiety 244 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: disorder or depression. And there's also other oriented perfectionism, which 245 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: a very close friend of mine struggles with a lot. 246 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,239 Speaker 1: It's the tendency to demand perfection from friends, family, coworkers, 247 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: and others. These are the people and I say this 248 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: because I repeat this mondrator myself all the time, these 249 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: are the people who need to be saying, not my monkey, 250 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: not my circus, Like, don't be so concerned about what 251 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: other people are doing or saying, or wearing or whatever. 252 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: Be more concerned with yourself. And as you can imagine, 253 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: this can be super damaging to relationships. And when I 254 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: said that I have a close with this, I literally 255 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: wasn't talking about myself. I do have a friend who 256 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: struggles mightily with this, is in therapy and talks about 257 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: it a lot, and it really has affected her relationships 258 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: with other people. Because yeah, if you are super driven 259 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: and you expect a lot from yourself, that can be 260 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: so damaging. You need to learn to practice self compassion 261 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: and self forgiveness. But when it's directed outward at other people, 262 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: well that just means that nobody's going to want to 263 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: invite you to their party. And then what will you 264 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: do on a Friday night? Then what are you gonna 265 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: do with all those cupcakes? Janis this lighting up? Janis 266 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: is going to stay in and eat them while watching 267 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: The Gilmore Girls on Netflix. But let's let's stop talking 268 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: about Janis. I'm starting to feel bad. Let's let's talk 269 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: about me instead. Okay, we should probably start talking about 270 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: some of the hallmarks of perfectionism, because we've told you 271 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: what it's not and what it is, but we need 272 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: to illustrate it with deeply, deeply personal stories because perfect 273 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: actionism the hallmarks are really that fear of failure, that 274 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: fear of vulnerability, because no true perfectionist wants to be 275 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: openly vulnerable or fail openly because that would totally shatter 276 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: their fragile sense of perfection that they're trying to convey 277 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: to the rest of the world. Yeah, I mean I've 278 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: I've personally struggled with those two things big time in 279 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: my life. The whole fear of failure. Um, you you've 280 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: mentioned that this is reminiscent for you of really being 281 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: a grade A plus driven when you were in school, 282 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 1: and it reminds me of when I was homeschooled as 283 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: a kid. I hated it if my mom graded my 284 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: paper because she was my teacher and my principle. Um. 285 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: I hated if she hated it if she graded my 286 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: tests or papers with a red pen because it was 287 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: like pointing out my failures even bigger and bold here, 288 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: and I would freak out about it. It makes it 289 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: so easy to see on the page. Though. Yeah I 290 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: read red pen as you are dumb. Well, that's become 291 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 1: sort of an issue in schools nowadays, right, Like I've 292 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 1: heard about teachers who have to stop using red pins 293 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 1: because it hurts kids feelings. Yeah. See, Thankfully my mom 294 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: was smart about it, and she was like, Kristen, we 295 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: need to have a talk because I don't this doesn't 296 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: seem like a healthy pattern. You need to accept a 297 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: red pin because if you can't accept a red pen, 298 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: then life's going to be a little bit tough. Although 299 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: I think that she started using like purple and orange, 300 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 1: she would switch up the color. I think sometimes just 301 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: like I don't know, so it didn't look like the 302 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: page was bleeding. The page is having a period menstruating pages. Um. Yeah, 303 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: I also am super guilty of like skipping out on 304 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,959 Speaker 1: what could potentially be a fun, enriching or rewarding experience 305 00:18:55,240 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: because I'm worried about failing or looking stupid it, or 306 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: being vulnerable or being mediocre. Um. And Similarly, I am 307 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: super guilty of one of the giant hallmarks of perfectionism, 308 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: which is procrastination. And again that's not a humble brag. 309 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: It really drives me insane about myself that I'm a 310 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: huge procrastinator because if this is especially true if it's 311 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: like a creative endeavor, whether it's in work or outside 312 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: of work, Because the thing is when you're just like, uh, 313 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: you know, if I'm just editing an article for the 314 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: house Stuff Works website, like, it's hard for me to 315 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: fail at that. I'm an editor. I'm good with words 316 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 1: like how I do is very quantifiable. It's easy to 317 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: quantify um when it is something that's more creative that 318 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: requires me to use, um a different skill set than 319 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 1: something that's just very cut and dry. All of a sudden, well, 320 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,479 Speaker 1: I could be vulnerable. Someone could judge me for this 321 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: and tell me that I'm stupid, And so that leads 322 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: to this tendency to like either put it off or 323 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: just assume I'm going to do terribly, so I just 324 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: won't try it. There's also the whole thing about being 325 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: plagued by what ifs and should that is so paralyzing, 326 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: and that leads to this regimented nous of the should, 327 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 1: like this should happen, and my therapist is always going, 328 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: why should it? Why do you have should there? Well, 329 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: I don't know, therapist, I'm just a perfectionist. And then 330 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 1: you realize your therapist is Janice. No. But quickly going 331 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: back to the procrastination thing, that was something I did 332 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: not expect to read about at all, because we would 333 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: assume that perfectionists have no problem with procrastination because they're 334 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: getting their work done there, going over and above all 335 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: the time. But it makes so much sense that they 336 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,199 Speaker 1: are very much linked. And I totally experienced that if 337 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: there's like some big creative project that I want to do, 338 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 1: my perfectionism will cause me to procrastinate because it's like, well, 339 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: what but what if I can't make this wonderful idea 340 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: come to fruition? Well, yeah. I mean, you're so worried 341 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: about getting judged and failing, and that can breathe eat 342 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: a lot of judgmental stuff about other people and other things. 343 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: I mean, dude, roommate, Hi, you don't listen to this 344 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: episode or this podcast. I means, it's okay if I 345 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: talk about you. You know, dude roommate was super judgmental, 346 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: and I really think it stemmed from a place in 347 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: him of being so hard on himself, so critical of 348 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: himself that when you're just trying to take that pressure off, 349 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 1: you can tend to focus it outward. So where does 350 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: it come from? Then? Can I Can we just blame 351 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: our parents, yeah, for raising to be perfectionistic. I actually 352 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: don't blame my parents for that. My parents were always 353 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: like really encouraging and empowering of like if you can read, 354 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: you can do anything. Um, And I don't feel like 355 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 1: it came from them. I felt like it was very 356 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 1: much like internally driven in me. But parents can absolutely 357 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: pass it on to their kids, and not surprisingly, this 358 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: is something that researchers have looked into. Well. Yeah, and 359 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: in terms of the passing it down to your kids, 360 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 1: I mean, this can be like you are Janice, and 361 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: you're super like cupcake perfection driven and your kids pick 362 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: up on that and it's like, oh, well I need 363 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: to I need to perform too. But it can be 364 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: like the research that we were reading, it can be 365 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: as small and as simple as a cocked eyebrow when 366 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: you bring home a B instead of an A. And 367 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: that's not to say that your parents are terrible people. 368 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: If that happened to you, that could seriously be just like, 369 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: I just want to encourage you to do better and 370 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: live your best life as Oprah if Oprah is your 371 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: mom would have you do um. But to a child 372 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 1: who's already absorbing everything around herself like that can be 373 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: really damaging, like, oh my god, I earned the eyebrow? 374 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: What did I do right? Because kids, when we're kids, 375 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: we take these small things and we don't have that 376 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: many tools in our brains and our experiences to put 377 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: context in nuance to that cocked eyebrow. So we then associate, oh, 378 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: a be with a cocked eyebrow. That correlation becomes a 379 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: causation and a pattern ensues. Yeah, And so it's no 380 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: surprise then that perfectionistic tendencies often start in childhood, whether 381 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: it is because of the expectations of your parents or 382 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: your teachers. Parental criticism and even the perception by kids 383 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: their parents and teachers have high expectations for them to 384 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: be perfect is enough to send someone on a perfectionist expiral. 385 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: And I was talking to Christian about this when we 386 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: were researching, because I was like, well, you know, I 387 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: have a tendency to blame my parents for this. But 388 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: my parents were very um in psychology terms, um indulgent, permissive. 389 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: They expected a lot of me, They expected me to 390 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 1: do very well, but they were also like super encouraging, 391 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: do your best, be who you are, reach for the stars, 392 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: all that good stuff. But I went to a very 393 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: very strict, very challenging private school growing up all through school, 394 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: and you do have those super high expectations from teachers 395 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 1: to the point where like getting the lower grade, the 396 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: slightly lower grade even is enough to be like, I've 397 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: let everyone down. I am so dumb. And so parenting styles, 398 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about teachers, but parenting styles are 399 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 1: obviously so important. And this is coming from a paper 400 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: by David Hibbert and Gail Walton from they found that 401 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: when you combine demands and lack of warmth with expectations 402 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: that helps create and foster perfectionisms, and that idea of 403 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: things interacting to create perfectionism or perfectionism interacting with something 404 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: else to create things like anxiety and depression. That's also 405 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,439 Speaker 1: a huge key to this topic because it's often not 406 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: occurring on its own well. So Hibberd and Walton were 407 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: saying that the parents who might have like my parents, 408 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: high demands on their kids to do well in school, 409 00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:00,719 Speaker 1: but who also have high warmth foster that adapt diversion 410 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: of perfectionism. That possibly they create self motivation in their kids, 411 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: which is great, But it's those parents who have high 412 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 1: demands on their kids but no warmth who might be 413 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 1: the problem causers because they say, this whole high demand 414 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 1: lack of warmth thing signals to your kid that they 415 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,719 Speaker 1: might not be loved if they screw up, and this, 416 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: they argue, is what tends to foster that maladaptive perfectionism, 417 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: the kind that can disrupt your life well, and it 418 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: can also backfire because these kids might not even try 419 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: to take on challenges, they might just be more anxious 420 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: or overwhelmed by them instead. And that link was found 421 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: to be more pronounced in boys, which is notable. Um. 422 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: And then finally you have neglectful parents that also foster 423 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: that maladaptive perfectionism because it's the whole thing of, well, 424 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: maybe if I can just really overachieve, I'll win some 425 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: attention or love or control my environment in some kind 426 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: of way. But when we're talking about adaptive versus maladaptive, 427 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: as you mentioned earlier, Caroline, some argue that there is 428 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: no adaptive about this, that this kind of of cycle 429 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: is not motivating us to actually do better. And this 430 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: is something that Dr Flett is adamant about. And he 431 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 1: was quoted in an article in the American Psychological Association's 432 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: Monitor magazine, and he said, I don't think needing to 433 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: be perfect is in any way adaptive. People make that 434 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 1: claim and they'll just ignore the fairly large literature that 435 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 1: says it's a vulnerability factor for unipolar depression, anorexia, and suicide. 436 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: And I was like, WHOA, Dr Flett, what's going on here? 437 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: And that's the thing. Perfectionism is very closely intertwined with 438 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: other mental health issues because researchers have found links to anxiety, depression, 439 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: suicidal tendency o c D, and eating disorders. Oh suddenly 440 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: perfectionism and so perfect, it ain't so perfect, And we'll 441 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: talk more about janison or cupcakes, and we come right 442 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: back from a quick break. So Kristen has mentioned a 443 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: lot of links between perfectionism and several mental health conditions. 444 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: For instance, socially prescribed perfectionism that's the time where you're 445 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: so worried about what other people think of you, you 446 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: want to look perfect to other people. UM has been 447 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 1: associated with depression and other problems, including, like Kristen said, 448 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: suicide and Dr Flett said, I think the reason for 449 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,959 Speaker 1: that is that socially prescribed perfectionism has an element of 450 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 1: pressure combined with a sense of helplessness and hopelessness, because 451 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 1: if you're a perfectionist by definition, you never feel perfect. 452 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 1: You never feel like you get there, like you accomplish 453 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: what you set out to accomplish, like you all ways 454 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: need to be working at it, making it better, whatever 455 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: it is, whether it's yourself, your appearance, or your job, 456 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: or your relationships. And also those attitudes that are wrapped 457 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: up in perfectionism, of guilt, shame, and the whole never 458 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: enough thing can lead to depression. Research has also shown 459 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: the perfectionism is a big mediator between the comor big 460 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: conditions of bipolar spectrum disorders and anxiety and depressive symptoms. 461 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: So basically, these folks already tend to view the world 462 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: from a more negative perspective. And Kristin, you know how 463 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: we mentioned those dimensions of perfectionism earlier in the podcast. 464 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: Do the things like concern over mistakes and abilities things 465 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: like that. Well, what's interesting about perfectionism is that all 466 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: of those concerns and worries and frets that define what 467 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: perfectionism is aren't consistent across people, which makes sense, everybody's different, 468 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: but they're also not consistent across people who have the 469 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: co more bid things like anxiety or depression or o 470 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: c D. So this study, for instance and Behavior Research 471 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: and Therapy from June two thousand eight found that the 472 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: dimension of concern over mistakes was elevated in each of 473 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: their patient groups that they studied. They looked at depression, 474 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: anxiety disorders, and eating disorders, while pure personal standards, so 475 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: like I've got to be perfect, everything has to be perfect, 476 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: was elevated only in the eating disorder sample. The dimension 477 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: of doubts about actions, so like can I actually accomplish this. 478 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: Maybe these people are procrastinators, like I don't know if 479 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: I can actually do this as perfectly as I need to. 480 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: That was found to be elevated in both patients with 481 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: O c D and eating disorders, but not in the 482 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: depressed patients. And so it's interesting, you know, I mentioned 483 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: that the whole concern over mistakes dimension was elevated in 484 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: all three patient groups. Their analysis indicated that concern over 485 00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: mistakes accounted for most of the variants in the relationship 486 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: of perfectionism to these forms of psychopathology. So it's really 487 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: this concern over messing up basically that your average person, 488 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: sure you have that like if I'm going to give 489 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: a speech, I don't want to screw it up. But 490 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: your average person is going to deal with the anxiety, 491 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: cope with the anxiety, not feel like their entire life 492 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: will come crashing down around them. People, though, who have depression, anxiety, 493 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: and struggle with eating disorders, all of this is likely 494 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: to be so much worse to the point of pathology. 495 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: And if we take a look, for instance, at the 496 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: anxiety piece, those high standards might actually be holding you 497 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: back by breeding the fear of failure and making mistakes, 498 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: and a piece in New York Magazine about this noted 499 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: how perfectionism very much reflects what they called an inner 500 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: self mired and anxiety, and it quoted psychologist Thomas Greenspan, 501 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: who described perfectionist people as believing that they can never 502 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: be good enough, that their mistakes reflect personal flaws, and 503 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: that the only route to acceptability as a person, the 504 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: only way to prove their worthiness is through perfection. And 505 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: guess what, folks, that's impossible to do and how mired 506 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: are we talking? Fourteen study looking at people with elevated 507 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: perfectionism and generalized anxiety disorder found the specific perfectionism dimension 508 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: concern over mistakes. We've heard that before. Personal standards and 509 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: doubts about actions were significantly correlated with clinical worry. So 510 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: to put that in la terms, clinical perfectionism is very 511 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: much linked and predictive of pathological worries. So yeah, you're 512 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: basically you're going to be sitting there just like heavy breathing, 513 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: fretting all the time. And this feeds into O c 514 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: D tendencies as well. And I'm talking like actual O 515 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: c D tendencies, not color coding your bookshelf, although that 516 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: does make for a very visually pleasing display. It sure does. 517 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: I also like apartment therapy dot com um. And of 518 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: course we've mentioned anxiety disorders. Perfectionism has been found to 519 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: be elevated in people with anorectio bilimia and eating disorders 520 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: not otherwise specified, compared to control groups. And I mean 521 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: just anecdotally common sense wise, this makes a lot of 522 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: sense because people with eating disorders are often found to 523 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: be attempting to exert control over something, and that something 524 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: is calorie counting, its body shape, it's weight. And there's 525 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: evidence that researchers have found that treating perfectionism also helps 526 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: alleviate anxiety and disordered eating. And part of that is 527 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: the idea of perfectionism being this quote trans diagnostic process, 528 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: essentially meaning that there are a lot of overlapping dimensions 529 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: that exist in eating disorders. So it's important to look 530 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: at the whole behavioral and psychological picture. So perfectionism doesn't 531 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: exist in a vacuum. Eating disorders don't exist in a vacuum. 532 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: These things bring in elements of a whole lot of 533 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: mental health issues. Yeah, and and the hallmarks of perfectionism 534 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: are really clear when you look at eating, disordered behavior 535 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: like shape or weight, over evaluation goals, setting that all 536 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: are none thinking um that typically goes into things like 537 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: anorexia and bulimia. And then if we look though at 538 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: suicide attempts. I mean this is not to say that 539 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: these other mental health issues are not do not severely 540 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: diminish our quality of life, but suicide is also so 541 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: tragically linked to perfectionism as well. And this was something 542 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: that that New York Magazine article really focused on because 543 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: it was citing some research, including a two thousand nine 544 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: report which found a very close relationship which queen perfectionism 545 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: and suicide attempts or completed suicide um. For instance, it 546 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: found this two thousand seven study found that more than 547 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: half of family members of people who had killed themselves 548 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 1: described their loved one unprompted as a perfectionist. It also 549 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: found a British study which found eleven of twenty students 550 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 1: who had killed themselves were described as being afraid a failure. 551 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: And then finally Archives of Suicide Research study found seventy 552 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 1: of this group of thirty three boys who had killed 553 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: themselves were described by their parents as placing quote exceedingly 554 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: high demands and expectations on themselves. Yeah, and that New 555 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: York magazine article, uh quoted this woman whose husband had 556 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: died from suicide as saying he was very deliberate. He 557 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: was a perfectionist. I've been learning that perfectionism plus depression 558 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: is a loaded gun. And that's so tragic to think of, 559 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:03,839 Speaker 1: especially when you think of how perfectionism is so rewarded 560 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 1: in our culture. It's such like a like a Protestant 561 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: work ethic thing of like you're going to stay up 562 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,320 Speaker 1: all night and you're going to work on that project 563 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: for work, or you're going to you know, perfect your 564 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,760 Speaker 1: appearance until you're unhealthy to make those cupcakes Jannis. Jannis 565 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: is going to make those cupcakes interest perfect And so 566 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,280 Speaker 1: it does it It gives that like it really drives 567 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:31,399 Speaker 1: home the dangerous and tragic aspect of perfectionism that it's 568 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 1: not just color coding your bookcase or your folders or whatever, 569 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: that it is something that absolutely interferes with living your life. Yeah, 570 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: we've we've touched a couple of times on the idea 571 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: that perfectionism in and of itself might not be a disorder, 572 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: but it might be the interaction of a lot of 573 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 1: things that's causing distress. For instance, there were some British 574 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: psychologists that found that it was the interaction between perfectionism 575 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: and avoidance coping, which is dealing with problems by not 576 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: dealing with problems that predicted college students hopelessness and psychological distress, 577 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: not the perfectionism by itself or the avoidance coping by itself. Meanwhile, 578 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: there was another study in the Journal of Counseling Psychology 579 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 1: that found that perfectionists who had positive coping mechanisms weren't 580 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 1: any more depressed than the average person, which sort of 581 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: goes against some of the stuff we've been saying. But 582 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 1: they say that this supports the idea that perfectionism interacts 583 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: with other mental health traits as well as life events 584 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: to produce that psychopathology. So what does that have to 585 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: do then, with women and girls? Is that psychopathology more 586 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 1: prevalent among us ladies, among the Janicis of the world, 587 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,919 Speaker 1: if you will, um because it comes up just colloquially 588 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:57,359 Speaker 1: in a lot of the ways that we talk about 589 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: women and especially ambitious women of oh, she's just a perfectionist. 590 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: Girls always want to be perfect, or the reason why 591 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,399 Speaker 1: women aren't leaning in and getting ahead. It is because 592 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: we try to be perfect before we ask for raises 593 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: or promotions or go for new jobs. And all those 594 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: things are true statistically, yes, But is that perfectionism at 595 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 1: work because that perfect word, the P word, came up 596 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: a lot in research that we've done on the imposter 597 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: syndrome UM. For instance, Catty k and Claire Shipmen have 598 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: written a whole book about this. They think. They call 599 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: it the Confidence Gap, And in the excerpt of that, 600 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: which was published in The Atlantic magazine, in they talk 601 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: about how women feel confident only when they're perfect or 602 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 1: practically perfect, and they go on to say that striving 603 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: to be perfect actually keeps us from getting much of 604 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: anything done, and they say it is such a given. Yeah, well, 605 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,799 Speaker 1: I think they actually say in excerpt that, oh, well, 606 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,280 Speaker 1: you know, we all know that women are more likely 607 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: to be perfectionists and to strive for perfection. And it's 608 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: and it's not that it's not true. It's obviously true 609 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: women some women are perfectionists and some perfectionists or women. 610 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: But I cannot find definitive studies that said, yes, more 611 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: women are perfectionists more often than men are. There's a 612 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,479 Speaker 1: lot of stuff out there that we see in other 613 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 1: mental health discussions in terms of it manifesting differently in 614 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: men and women. Men are more likely to kill themselves 615 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 1: or to self medicate with drugs and alcohol. Women are 616 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: more likely to go the anxiety and eating disorder root. Um. 617 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: But yeah, I I I understand the concept of like 618 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: oh more. Women clearly want to be perfect, especially when 619 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 1: you take it in terms of the imposter syndrome conversation, 620 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: because Shipment and k argue that girls get a lot 621 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 1: of praise for being perfect, which breeds approval seeking, and 622 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: their confidence takes a hit when they enter the real world. 623 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: That doesn't reward them for their perfect spelling in their 624 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 1: perfect manners and the perfect Lacy socks and their Mary 625 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,240 Speaker 1: Jane shoes. But I don't think that that's an issue 626 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,479 Speaker 1: of actual perfectionism so much as girls trying to out 627 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:21,760 Speaker 1: achieve institutional sexism. Yeah, the and and certainly those ideas 628 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: are related, the idea of I have to work so 629 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: much harder to prove myself. Yes, the perfectionist is driven 630 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:32,320 Speaker 1: by the fear or even the internal knowledge of failure. Um. 631 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: And that's kind of the same thing for impostor syndrome. 632 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: Of I feel like a fake. I have to work 633 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: so much harder to prove myself. But they're not one 634 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: and the same. Imposter syndrome is not necessarily nobody's having 635 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: a debate over whether imposter syndrome is in and of 636 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 1: itself a mental health disorder, right, and not surprisingly, one 637 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: group of people that's been looked at and studied in 638 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,720 Speaker 1: terms of perfectionism is athletes. There was a two thousand 639 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: to studies in Psychology of Sport and ex your size 640 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: that found a strong link between here we have that 641 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: idea again, negative perfectionism and social social physique anxiety for 642 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: both men and women. They found that there's a small 643 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 1: link between positive perfection and disordered eating in men. However, 644 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: when it comes to women, that negative perfectionism and the 645 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 1: social physique anxiety interacted to lead to disordered eating. So, 646 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 1: like how many times have I said interacted in this episode, 647 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: it tends to be all of these different things combining 648 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: to drive pathology. Well, so, you know, like I said, 649 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: I couldn't find many definitive studies or books or papers 650 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,840 Speaker 1: saying that, yes, women experience perfectionism more than men do. 651 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:50,919 Speaker 1: But I did find some interesting, some interesting research that's 652 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: been done on women and sex, and this is coming 653 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 1: from the book by Cindy Meston and David Buss called 654 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 1: Why Women Have Sex, and they talk about a survey 655 00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: that Messed and did that found that individual differences in 656 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 1: perfectionism were related to relationship fidelity and sexual variety seeking, 657 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 1: which is fascinating and scary if you're dating a perfectionist. Yeah, 658 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 1: in a nutshell. They found that women who were high 659 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 1: in perfectionism essentially took that perfectionism into the bedroom they 660 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: said unrealistically high standards for themselves and others, and they 661 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:32,280 Speaker 1: also had sex with more people compared to women low imperfectionism, 662 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 1: and they were more likely to have been unfaithful in 663 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 1: a sexual relationship. So perfectionists are likelier to be cheaters. 664 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 1: Interesting and bus and Messin think that the reason why 665 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 1: is because they appeared to hold these unrealistic demands not 666 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: just from the people themselves, but from their sexual prowess 667 00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:01,319 Speaker 1: and performance, which causes them to be continually disappointed in 668 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 1: the bedroom and so they look elsewhere, whether that means 669 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,719 Speaker 1: stepping outside of the balance of a monogamous relationship or not. 670 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 1: So it seems like these people in this study might 671 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:17,839 Speaker 1: be pretty likely to quickly flee a relationship rather than 672 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: working through problems, rather than being like, hey, relationships take work. 673 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: Like I've been guilt. I have never cheated. I'm going 674 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:29,280 Speaker 1: on record, um, but the I have been guilty of 675 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,319 Speaker 1: in the past dating people and being like, you know what, 676 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,759 Speaker 1: it's not it's not perfect anymore. But was this more 677 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,360 Speaker 1: about relationships or was it just about sex? Well, this 678 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,320 Speaker 1: particular thing was just about sex. So can we extrapolate 679 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,880 Speaker 1: that sex to how they would function in a relationship 680 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,359 Speaker 1: because the two are distinct. They are distinct. You're so 681 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,040 Speaker 1: right and playing the sexual devil's advocate. I don't know 682 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 1: if I want I'm advocating for, but I just think 683 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,399 Speaker 1: that I think sometimes that conflating the two leads us. Yeah, 684 00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 1: that complicates things. Yeah, sex always complicated and it makes 685 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 1: you a woman. We but what do we do about this? 686 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 1: How do we treat perfectionism? How do we cope with it? 687 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,279 Speaker 1: Because obviously there is that psychopathology. These are some of 688 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:19,400 Speaker 1: us are wired in this perfectionistic kind of way. And 689 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,839 Speaker 1: for people who don't deal with this, ps telling your 690 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 1: perfectionist friend or loved one to just relax and gonna 691 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:31,359 Speaker 1: do it instead, it's really focusing in on the need 692 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 1: to accept yourself and be cared for and take care 693 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:42,239 Speaker 1: of that perfectionistic drive. Find the root of it. Essentially, well, yeah, 694 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:46,759 Speaker 1: because it is those super high drives to be accepted 695 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 1: that drives perfectionism. So if you good with therapists and 696 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 1: you're like, why do I need to feel accepted and 697 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:54,920 Speaker 1: loved by everyone around me? That will get to the 698 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,520 Speaker 1: root of like, you don't have to be perfect. People 699 00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:59,760 Speaker 1: are going to love you for being the imperfect person 700 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,719 Speaker 1: that you are, and people are going to dislike you. Yeah, 701 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 1: oh yeah, that's a that's a great thing to acknowledge 702 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 1: and totally embrace. Not everyone's gonna like you, and not 703 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 1: everyone's gonna think you're funny or pretty or cute or 704 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: worth listening to. If you host a podcast, I don't 705 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 1: understand why not? Um, but yeah, like you said, it's 706 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:23,759 Speaker 1: it's practicing compassion for yourself, which is so hard considering 707 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,640 Speaker 1: that you guys out there who are perfectionists. You have 708 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,279 Speaker 1: such high demands on everyone, including yourself, And as my 709 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 1: therapist says, forgiveness is our most healing power, and that 710 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,839 Speaker 1: includes for yourself, not just for the person who cut 711 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 1: you off in traffic, and so a good way to 712 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:44,520 Speaker 1: cope if you have perfectionism or perfectionistic tendencies is to 713 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,319 Speaker 1: aim your focus at other people, to volunteer, to get 714 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 1: the focus off yourself and go help others. And it's 715 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,480 Speaker 1: also helpful to develop some ways to counter all of 716 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,920 Speaker 1: those what ifs and should so. One source we were 717 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: reading said that it's great if you name your fear, 718 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,719 Speaker 1: name your what if. So, like what if, okay, let's 719 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:06,799 Speaker 1: say Kristen and I are giving a speech, Like what 720 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,399 Speaker 1: if I fail at this speech? Well, then play will 721 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 1: die immediately. What will happen? And it will be written 722 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 1: on our toolstone we failed a speech, the room will explode. 723 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,520 Speaker 1: But then keep asking yourself, well, then what so if 724 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,279 Speaker 1: I fail at the speech, Um, I'm probably gonna be 725 00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 1: embarrassed and somebody might write something bad in the college 726 00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,920 Speaker 1: paper about me. Well then what well, it'll just blow 727 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:30,560 Speaker 1: over and then I'll go home and I'll eat this 728 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,640 Speaker 1: home print is dead. Prince is dead, so no one 729 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: will read it. So it's fine. And there's also the 730 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,800 Speaker 1: idea of and this kind of ties into cognitive behavioral therapy, 731 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,960 Speaker 1: which is also recommended for perfectionists. But redirecting your what 732 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,040 Speaker 1: if so instead of being like what if I really 733 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,560 Speaker 1: f this up? Start asking what if I succeed? What 734 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,279 Speaker 1: if I win? What if I s this up? You know, 735 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,480 Speaker 1: what does S stand for succeed? Okay? I was like, 736 00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,760 Speaker 1: I don't understand how the S word works in this situation, Kristen. 737 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,719 Speaker 1: But also the idea of telling yourself that good enough 738 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,839 Speaker 1: is good enough because no perfection perfectionists believes that, and 739 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,960 Speaker 1: I struggle with that mightily. I don't even believe it's 740 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,240 Speaker 1: sitting here. But if you keep repeating it to yourself 741 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,840 Speaker 1: as a mantra, that good enough is good enough because 742 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,799 Speaker 1: no one is perfect, and literally perfection doesn't exist, it's 743 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:26,520 Speaker 1: not a thing. Setting realistic expectations is also crucial. I 744 00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:28,279 Speaker 1: have a challenge with this where I see what I 745 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,160 Speaker 1: want and I don't break it down into the tiny 746 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,160 Speaker 1: steps because you have to eat the old elephant one 747 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,120 Speaker 1: step at a time, one bite at a time, not 748 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,360 Speaker 1: one step at a time. Talking about eating an elephant, 749 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,400 Speaker 1: not walking over it. You have to climb over the 750 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,560 Speaker 1: elephant one step at a time. Both of these are 751 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,160 Speaker 1: ways to deal with procrastination. Well yeah, well, I mean, 752 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:51,799 Speaker 1: first you have the real realistic expectation setting. Yeah, and 753 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,920 Speaker 1: then by doing that it will help with that issue 754 00:46:55,960 --> 00:47:00,840 Speaker 1: of procrastination that I also personally do go with, because 755 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,799 Speaker 1: i mean, when everything just looks so huge, of course 756 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 1: you're not going to want to do it. And these 757 00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,080 Speaker 1: are also patterns that if you have kids, that you 758 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:12,520 Speaker 1: can model to them, because oh gosh, I tell you, 759 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,920 Speaker 1: I don't even have kids, but my terror is just 760 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:22,120 Speaker 1: sing them up. And that's for screwing, not succeeding. Well, yeah, 761 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:26,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it's important to help kids understand that reaching 762 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,440 Speaker 1: their potential and succeeding doesn't mean reaching perfection, that those 763 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:33,960 Speaker 1: two things aren't the same, and the inner achievement, thinking skills, creativity, imagination, 764 00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,520 Speaker 1: risk taking, that these are all so valuable that they're 765 00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:41,200 Speaker 1: even more valuable than getting straight a's. Although I'm sure 766 00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,080 Speaker 1: there are people out there who would disagree with me, 767 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,560 Speaker 1: and so they're therapists out there who encourage parents and 768 00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,920 Speaker 1: aunts and uncles whoever you are, um to share the 769 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,760 Speaker 1: stories of your own screw ups with kids, how whether 770 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 1: you overcame them or not, to show kids like, hey, 771 00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,840 Speaker 1: I'm still alive and successful and can and can human. 772 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,640 Speaker 1: You can human too. If you miss up. And you know, 773 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,399 Speaker 1: this actually made me think about this woman that I'm 774 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,759 Speaker 1: in a fitness class with who was just telling me 775 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,560 Speaker 1: about how her son came home crying because his homework 776 00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:15,280 Speaker 1: was to color and he was so nervous about coloring 777 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,480 Speaker 1: outside the lines that he literally couldn't do it. He 778 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,719 Speaker 1: cried and just would not do it, even though she's like, 779 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,560 Speaker 1: your daddy and I love your pictures, We want you 780 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:26,439 Speaker 1: to color outside the lines. You just do your best 781 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,359 Speaker 1: and that's all you can do. But he was so 782 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:33,120 Speaker 1: petrified because at school they do great. Apparently, in whatever 783 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,839 Speaker 1: preschool or kindergarten class he is, they do get their 784 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:39,120 Speaker 1: gold stars for coloring within the lines, even though mommy 785 00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,120 Speaker 1: and daddy love it when he colors outside the lines 786 00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:44,080 Speaker 1: and does whatever he wants, and so it sounds like 787 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,200 Speaker 1: someone he's out a talk with teacher. She was telling 788 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,359 Speaker 1: me this, and I'm like, oh, this sounds like well, 789 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,560 Speaker 1: first it sounds like me, but then it sounds like 790 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:55,160 Speaker 1: perfectionism is starting to take root. And so anything you 791 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:59,400 Speaker 1: can do to encourage yourself or your kids to really 792 00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,120 Speaker 1: just be even take those risks, I think that's super 793 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,360 Speaker 1: mentally healthy and perhaps another mentally healthy thing that you 794 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:10,800 Speaker 1: can do is share your stories with us. With some podcasters, 795 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,640 Speaker 1: I mean, we're curious to hear from listeners if this 796 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:18,400 Speaker 1: resonates with you or with someone you know or love. 797 00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:21,800 Speaker 1: Mom stab at House Stuffwork dot com is our email address. 798 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,080 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or 799 00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,200 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages 800 00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:34,360 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. Well, I have a 801 00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:38,719 Speaker 1: letter here from Leaf in response to our Significant Other episode. 802 00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:42,200 Speaker 1: Leaf writes, I especially enjoyed the little segment on gender 803 00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 1: neutral terms. As a non binary transgender person with a 804 00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,480 Speaker 1: long term sis gender girlfriend, this is an issue that 805 00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,440 Speaker 1: has permeated both my personal relationship with her and also 806 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:53,400 Speaker 1: the way that we as a couple are seeing to 807 00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:55,759 Speaker 1: those around us. To most people, we look like a 808 00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,920 Speaker 1: fairly average lesbian couple. Even if someone were to know 809 00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,319 Speaker 1: that one of us is trans gender, the guests would 810 00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 1: more like more than likely be my girlfriend, who's much 811 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:07,520 Speaker 1: more androgynously presenting than myself. To offset that, my girlfriend 812 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,279 Speaker 1: has taken to calling me her partner, although that term 813 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,280 Speaker 1: in itself has caused just as much confusion as anything else, 814 00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,400 Speaker 1: you were absolutely right when you mentioned that using partner 815 00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,440 Speaker 1: either signifies a man's coworker or a sneaky lesbian term 816 00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:24,279 Speaker 1: of endearment. Can we have that movie sneaky lesbian terms 817 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:30,280 Speaker 1: of endearment? Anyway? Back to the letter, Leaf continues whenever 818 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,839 Speaker 1: my girlfriend refers to me as her partner, whoever she's 819 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,520 Speaker 1: speaking to is always quick to correct her and to 820 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,279 Speaker 1: get her to say I'm her girlfriend. We have yet 821 00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:40,520 Speaker 1: to find a way around this problem, as even more 822 00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,759 Speaker 1: gender gender neutral terms tend to sound childish in an 823 00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,440 Speaker 1: adult setting, and even if they didn't, the common person 824 00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,840 Speaker 1: probably would not be able to instantly queue in on 825 00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,719 Speaker 1: the meaning. It's just one of the many problems non 826 00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,840 Speaker 1: binary trans people have in social situations, but yet to 827 00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,400 Speaker 1: be figured out well. So thanks for writing to us 828 00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:59,680 Speaker 1: about it, Leaf. I've got to let her hear from 829 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,280 Speaker 1: Kay about our Native American princess episode from a while back, 830 00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:06,600 Speaker 1: and she writes, I was listening to your Native American 831 00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:10,200 Speaker 1: princess stereotyping episode in the commentary on how these harmful 832 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,800 Speaker 1: stereotypes often harm young children's perspectives of their native culture. 833 00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,240 Speaker 1: My siblings and I are bi racial. Our father's family 834 00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,839 Speaker 1: belongs to be a Jibwa boys work band in northern Minnesota, 835 00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,480 Speaker 1: and my mother is a strong Polish woman. Anyway, when 836 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,560 Speaker 1: my parents were out, a family friend had to watch 837 00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,200 Speaker 1: Peter Pan for the first time, and while little kids 838 00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,280 Speaker 1: have a hard time understanding the totally racially charged lyrics 839 00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:34,799 Speaker 1: of the song what makes a Red Man Read, my 840 00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:38,200 Speaker 1: younger brother was terrified. He refused to go to bed, 841 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,480 Speaker 1: and when my parents came home, my five year old 842 00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,439 Speaker 1: brother seriously confessed to my parents that he did not 843 00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,080 Speaker 1: want to be Native American anymore because in Peter Pan 844 00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,200 Speaker 1: they were scary and tried to kill everyone. My parents 845 00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:51,480 Speaker 1: were mortified, to say the least, and that night we 846 00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,360 Speaker 1: all had a good talking to about American history, racism, 847 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,200 Speaker 1: and how stereotypes of Native American people have suffered. So 848 00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:00,960 Speaker 1: after this very long, very emotional versation and my parents 849 00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,200 Speaker 1: had with us, they asked my other younger brother what 850 00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,239 Speaker 1: he thought now, and he replied, now we must kill 851 00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:11,520 Speaker 1: the white man. Equally horrified, parental shrieks followed with no, 852 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,839 Speaker 1: you're white too. While cute, it's always been a sad 853 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,000 Speaker 1: story for us kids because it's the first time we 854 00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:21,000 Speaker 1: became aware of the racism and struggle with identity that 855 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:24,759 Speaker 1: many Native and biracial people feel these scenes have not 856 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,120 Speaker 1: only affected my siblings perspective on our culture, but also 857 00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,080 Speaker 1: the children around us in high school and middle school. 858 00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:34,279 Speaker 1: When our very white school found out that US kids 859 00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,359 Speaker 1: were Native, bullying and chance of Ali Ali Gum Gum 860 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:39,840 Speaker 1: followed me for a while, and people called my younger 861 00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,160 Speaker 1: sister Tiger Lily and brother Running Bear behind their backs, 862 00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:45,959 Speaker 1: and it was far more common than I obviously would 863 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,480 Speaker 1: have liked. For a while, it felt like being Native 864 00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,040 Speaker 1: was humiliating, and the fact that my family's tormentors used 865 00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,960 Speaker 1: Disney references to do it makes me stick to my stomach. 866 00:52:55,640 --> 00:53:00,239 Speaker 1: So that's why I hate Peter Pan so they Thanks 867 00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,680 Speaker 1: for your letter, Kaylee, and thanks to everybody who's written 868 00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,400 Speaker 1: into us. Mom. Stuff at how stuff works dot com 869 00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:08,680 Speaker 1: is our email address and for links to all of 870 00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,640 Speaker 1: our social media as well as all of our blogs, videos, 871 00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,880 Speaker 1: and podcasts with this one including our sources so you 872 00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:18,880 Speaker 1: can learn more about perfectionism. Head on over to stuff 873 00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:27,720 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You dot com for moralness and thousands 874 00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:29,600 Speaker 1: of other topics. Does it has stuff Works