1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's hear it for our super producer, 4 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 1: the Man, the Myth, the legend, mister Max Williams, who 5 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: uh yournl, I'm ben yeah and uh we are finally 6 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: recording in the same city again. I want to say yes, 7 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: it feels good, it feels and hopefully peek behind the curtain, folks. 8 00:00:55,640 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: Hopefully we three will be recording in person sooner rather 9 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:08,839 Speaker 1: than later, as the as the iHeart Podcast office nearest completion. 10 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: Very excited about that. Been a long time coming. We've 11 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: obviously gotten the hang of this whole remote thing the 12 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: new way, but there's something kind of charming and quaint 13 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: about being in the same room look at each other 14 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: in the I R L eyeballs instead of gazing into 15 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: a screen and a smell Oh yeah yeah, boys down together, 16 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: yeah yeah. It gradually builds along with the temperature. The 17 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: last time we recorded in person together was in the 18 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: old I Heart office in the Legendary Stuff you should 19 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: know studio, and the Legendary Stuff you should Know Studio 20 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: is legendarily small and legendarily not ventilated. I think we 21 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: could say, right, it gives you a bit of a 22 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: bit of the sweats sometimes, but we do enjoy the energy, 23 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: and there's there's sort of this epidemic good vibe that 24 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: occurs when when we're in person and we all three 25 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: are actually friends outside of the show. This is not 26 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: an act. So we do love to hang out together. 27 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: We can't wait to record in person and maybe one 28 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: day we can get this show on the road and uh, 29 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: you know, get it out on its feet in front 30 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: of an audience. What do you think. No, I'm into 31 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: But for now we can like figuratively get this show 32 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: on the road and talk about not just epidemics of 33 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: good vibes, but epidemics of like, you know, diseases, bad vibes. Really, yeah, 34 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: just so, there are a lot of epidemics throughout the 35 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: span of human history, and some of these remain largely 36 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: unexplained in the modern day. Fellow ridiculous historians, you'll recall 37 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: that not too long ago we talk to about the 38 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: dancing plague. I think we had an APPA parody that 39 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: came up and with scream I don't remember the twist 40 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: and scream Yeah, and this this, this episode today was 41 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: originally going to be some kind of bonus plagues if 42 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: you will, tacked onto the end of that episode, but 43 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: we realized that we had more than enough with the 44 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: dancing plague alone to fill out an episode, so we 45 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: figured we'd uh stick these to the side and add 46 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 1: a little bit to them. And now here we are 47 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: with just some strange and ridiculous plagues throughout history. Yeah. Yeah, 48 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: So let's start with one that's close to our top 49 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: of the show conversation. Let's talk about sweating sickness and 50 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: Cardi sweat star Trek related right, Fortunately, my friend does 51 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: not have anything to do with the lu picard. I know, 52 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: research the wrong thing again, same same, I was halfway 53 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: through what I figured it out, and I texted Patrick 54 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: Stewart and you know, he mainly texts back in emoji. Um, 55 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: but he seemed amused as well. A little little bald 56 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: person emoji, I assume. Yeah, yeah, what do you call it? Bitmoji? 57 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: He just discovered bitmoji. He loves them like everybody else's parents. Yeah, 58 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,799 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, but here, like the silver lining 59 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: here is I'm almost entirely through the entirety of the 60 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: Star Trek canon, so soon I'll be able to actually 61 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: carry a conversation with Max Williams. And then I'll just 62 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: change it to sports. Oh that I can't. That canon 63 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: is a bit too tall in order for me. I 64 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: don't think I can get through the cannon of all sports. Oh, 65 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I can't remember if I sent 66 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: us to both of you. Guys. Definitely sent you Max. 67 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: Curling is an epidemic in Japan now, Oh they love it. 68 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: They love It's all over the place. Um, Curling's huge 69 00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: in Korea also, And I think everyone agree, and hopefully 70 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: you can agree after hearing this, folks, you should prefer 71 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: an epidemic of curling to an epidemic of sweating sickness? 72 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: What is sweating sickness? Like? I can't believe we didn't 73 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: talk about this with the dancing plague. Is it still 74 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: kind of inexplicable or is it just a European thing? 75 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: What do we know about? Boy? Is it much like Abba? 76 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: Although Abba, you know, made its way across the universe, 77 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 1: really took it by storm. I mean they've got like 78 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: a Broadway play and everything. This plague did not get 79 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 1: a Broadway musical, unfortunately, or or fortunately it might have 80 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: been a bit of a bummer, but this plague was 81 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: very specific to England. It was also known as the 82 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: English sweat or English sweating sickness, and it is an 83 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: epidemic of unknown origin that popped up in England five 84 00:05:54,960 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: different times, and aside from the second of the times, 85 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: which was relatively mild, the other four were incredibly severe. 86 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: A lot of people lost their lives. It began with 87 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: things like headaches and what is being reported in Britannica 88 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: as giddiness, which I love, but also not a good 89 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: kind of giddiness. I'm imagining this is some sort of 90 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: like nervous energy and kind of almost madness, kind of 91 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: vertigo too, yeah, yeah, and uh and again. And some 92 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: of the sources that Britannica is citing severe prostration, which 93 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: would we talked about that recently as well. Prostration being 94 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: when you kind of lay on the ground in almost 95 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: a fetal position. M yeah. Prostration is lying stretched out 96 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: on the ground, specifically with your face facing down, so 97 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: it's it's not the most advantageous position, which also kind 98 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: of forces the idea of vertigo here and astute listeners, 99 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: you may remember that we explored this not too too 100 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: long ago in an episode on Henry the eighth and 101 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: that English sweat. I remember being in love with that title. 102 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: But uh, but this was this is not the same, right, 103 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: This is this the same English sweat that Henry the eighth. 104 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: This is the very this is the very same we 105 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: focused on. We focused on our boy, Henry eighth. But um, 106 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: but this was obviously affecting other people. The strange thing 107 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: is that this remains a mystery. We know about the symptoms, 108 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: and this was not a fun epidemic. It was a 109 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: fatal one. And when people got the first symptoms, then 110 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: they typically if they were going to die, they would 111 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: die in a window of three to eighteen hours, which 112 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: is a crazy short time. You know. Yeah, that's right, 113 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: And it's interesting too the whole prostration element. Um. You know, 114 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: prostration is also something often associated with religious ritual, you know, 115 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: to prostrate yourself before God. It's also something that you 116 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: see often in Islam with calls to prayer, you know, 117 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: on your prayer rug and all of that. Yeah, oh God, 118 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: a million percent. So it makes sense that a lot 119 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: of these epidemics were associated with some sort of curse 120 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: or you know, a vengeful God, you know, the idea 121 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: that folks were being forced into these positions, almost like 122 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: a Sodom and Gomorrah type attack. You would occasionally, in 123 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: addition to those other symptoms that we talked about, get 124 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: a pretty nasty rash and um if you if you 125 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: did get it, it was not something that you could 126 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: then be immune to, which is the folks now it's awful. 127 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: And that was kind of, you know, similar to COVID, 128 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: where some people, it seemed, were immune after getting it. 129 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: But then we all of a sudden, when we didn't 130 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: know what the deal was with COVID, we realized that 131 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: people were getting it multiple times. So this seems to 132 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: be kind of similar, although some people were more resilient 133 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: than others. But you gotta wonder too, without any real 134 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: scientific research at the time available, if this maybe resulted 135 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: from a mutation. Yeah, and this again, this is an 136 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: incredibly frightening time for people. We still don't know how 137 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: it was transmitted necessarily. There are some theories, but this 138 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: seemed to target young men and often target the wealthy 139 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: and the powerful, which you can only imagine kind of 140 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: added to the idea of it being a divine punishment. 141 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: It's strange because the sweating sickness epidemic when it came 142 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: in these different waves, it was also particularly short lived. 143 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: It would just occur for a few weeks in places 144 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: and move on. Also, I had some nicknames that we 145 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: would love to share for with you, to the point 146 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 1: about frustration. It was sometimes called the stoop gallant or 147 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: gallant and the stoop nave like you scamp like that one, 148 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: and much like a curse or you know, biblical type punishment, 149 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: might you know be presumed to behave? It vanished and 150 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: then came back. By fifteen seventy eight, it was gone 151 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: almost entirely, with no evidence left behind of what might 152 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: have been its cause. And then over a hundred years later, 153 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: we're in France now in the Jean Luke Piccardi region 154 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: of France. It's called just a Piccarti region, but presumably 155 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: that is where Jean Luke gets his namesake, you know, 156 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: perhaps that was his family seat. I don't know, Max, 157 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,719 Speaker 1: can you speak to the yeah, the origin story of 158 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: the Picard family. I don't know. Ben, where is Chateau Picard? 159 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: Do you know? If you have to ask, you're probably 160 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: not invited, Yeah, Piccardi. As we're calling it in honor 161 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: of our pal or. Picardy is a region in France. 162 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: It's Gonnaly, so think of to the north of the country. 163 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: It's it used to be its own administrative region or 164 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: historical territory, and now it's part of a new region 165 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: quite recently since twenty sixteen. Histories closer than it looks 166 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: in the rear view mirror. If you go there now, 167 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,599 Speaker 1: you might sweat, depending on the weather and your activities, 168 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: but you're hopefully not going to get the sweating sickness. 169 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: And I can't believe we got this far without mentioning 170 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: just how much people were sweating. I wish the English 171 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,719 Speaker 1: is so weird. I wish we could say they sweat. Yes, 172 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: that's not unfortunately, No, that's a yeah. I liked that 173 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: a lot. Uh sweated, Yes they they they sweated, for sure. 174 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,079 Speaker 1: We have a guy by the name of Henry Tidy, 175 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: which is a great name for a medical expert. At 176 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: the time, he was fairly certain that this was that 177 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: same historical plague, the sweating sickness or suitor Anglicus. And 178 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 1: then it was kind of, you know, re re rebranded 179 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: a little bit to the Piccardi sweat, and this time. 180 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 1: It stuck around well into what we might consider more 181 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,959 Speaker 1: relatively modern history until the end of World War One, 182 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: with one particularly debilitating outbreak for the population, hitting around 183 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: six thousand people in nineteen oh six, and then once again, 184 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: like that, it was gone like kaiser SoSE style. And 185 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: now we all have to wonder every time we sweat, 186 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,959 Speaker 1: is this the beginning of a new English sweat? Uh? 187 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: So far the answer is no. But make sure to 188 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: stay hydrated, folks, and if you if you feel that 189 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: you are being overcome by severe prostration, please do call 190 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: a medical expert. Post taste, no doubt. How long was 191 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 1: that between these outbreaks in these two different regions. Hundred 192 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: years years? All right, So we're not quite due for 193 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: one yet. No, we are. We are so due. We're 194 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: passing right now. Yeah, I think we are so fingers crossed. 195 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: And like you said, Ben, stay hydrated, stay frosty. So 196 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: now let's travel to a different part of the world. 197 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: Perhaps what is this I'm just I'm laughing because we're 198 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: segueing to laughter epidemic. Oh that's right, yes, yeah, sorry, 199 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: that was terrified. I love it. Yeah, that would maybe 200 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: what would we can say the giddiness perhaps Um, I'm 201 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: going to Tanzania and the year is nineteen sixty two. 202 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: So laughter is already this very fascinating thing scientifically, right, 203 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: laughter is a language all its own, and sometimes you 204 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: can hear laughs and you know that what someone is 205 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: trying to communicate is not necessarily just innocuous amusement. Right. 206 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: There are evil laughs. There's sesame street laughs like the 207 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: count uh and uh. Then there are laughs that sound 208 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:46,479 Speaker 1: like nervous laughter, right, almost like a park Yeah, yeah, 209 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: and laughter right whoa, whoa you put that one back 210 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: in your laugh sack a laugh sack or yeah, like 211 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: the clown laugh. Of course oh u. Laughter can be 212 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: a signal of distress. Also, I'm very proud that no 213 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: one has heard my real laugh on air because it 214 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: sounds frightening. But laughter can. Fake laughs are pretty frightening too. 215 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: Benefits fake laugh and fake laughs are pretty easy to detect, 216 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: I would imagine for a lot of people. Right. So 217 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: it can come from unfunny places. It can come from anger, 218 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: unfortunate surprise, sadness. It can be yeah, malevolence, yeah, and 219 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: it can come from an epidemic. The most famous example 220 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: of this happened back when Tanzania was called Tanganyika in 221 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two. But the weird thing is, unlike the 222 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: sweating sickness, laughter epidemics are still around in the modern day, 223 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: and we kind of touch on this and stuff they 224 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: don't want you to know. I think a little bit 225 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: when we talk about, you know, outbreaks of mass psychogenic events. 226 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: That's right, And we talked about that a good bit 227 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: as well in our episode on the Dancing plague, where 228 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: part of the phenomenon of some of these things might 229 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: be that. Again, since we don't have, you know, tests 230 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: or like any kind of necessarily scientific data to back 231 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: these up, whether or not all of these cases were 232 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: in fact infections, or whether it was just kind of 233 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: this mass hallucination or kind of like mass group think 234 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: kind of copycatting, you know, m yeah, right, and copycatting. 235 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: That's an important point because we have to ask ourselves 236 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: whether people are just communicating something social right versus something physiological, 237 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: something psychological right. And this outbreak in nineteen sixty two, 238 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: it occurs at an all girls school and then it 239 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: spreads to these other communities. Current estimates say the laughter 240 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: epidemic may have affected somewhere around a thousand people and 241 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: it lasted for months. This wasn't like the sweating sickness 242 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: that only lasted for several hours or would pop up 243 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: and then disappear. And we want to shout out an 244 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: excellent article by our friends at Atlas Obscura. The nineteen 245 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: sixty two laughter epidemic of Tanganika was no joke. Get it. 246 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: Shout out to Taotao Holmes. It did have a pattern though, 247 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: Like in most cases a mass psychogenic phenomenon, a single 248 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: person would be the origin point, right, And this person 249 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty two was a schoolgirl and they fell 250 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: into what experts believe was a fit of anxiety induced laughter. 251 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: And then the dominoes started to fall as well, and 252 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: other girls started finding themselves laughing against their will, not 253 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: in a fun way, uncontrollably. This reminds me a lot 254 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: of another episode we did on Stuff that I wanted 255 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: you to know about the screaming girls of Malaysia. Yeah, 256 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: and I don't know that the video we had wasn't 257 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: necessarily the exact instance that we talked about on the show, 258 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, But there is a video you 259 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: can find that shows this phenomenon like in full effect. 260 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: And it is chilling. Yeah, no one's having fun is 261 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 1: not a pleasant experience. And these students who were who 262 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 1: found themselves affected, weren't just suffering from one bout of 263 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: uncontrollable laughter. It would come and it would go, which 264 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: is one of the most annoying things about hiccups. If 265 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: anybody has ever suffered from hiccups, at which point I 266 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: want to stop and ask you, guys, have a good 267 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: hiccup cure. Your old roommate Frank is probably the guy 268 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: with the most consistent hiccup cure. But yeah, he's like 269 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: a hiccup shirt or something. Yeah, he does this move 270 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: that's very much a psychological trick where he kind of 271 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: gets he puts his hand on the top of your 272 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: head and asks you to foot and he sort of 273 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: like asks you to almost like funnel your hiccup energy 274 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: up through the top of your head and into his hand. 275 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: And somehow, yeah, somehow the psychology of that does. I 276 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: have seen it work. It's worked on me. I typically 277 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 1: do the old hold your breath for about ten seconds 278 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: and then swallow. And you know, a lot of these 279 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: remedies are kind of placebo effects. You know, it's not 280 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: but but you know, a lot of times the hiccups 281 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 1: have to do with a spasm in your diaphragm, and 282 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: if you are able to kind of like relax it 283 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 1: by maybe doing this thing that I'm describing, it can 284 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: make it go away. But it also doesn't work every time, 285 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: And believing in the cure is almost more important than 286 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 1: the cure itself. Yeah, and this happens with hiccups, of course, 287 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: are not psychogenic, right, The hiccup is a spasm of 288 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: the diaphragm. But in the case of the laughter epidemic 289 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty two, we saw that a lot of 290 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: attempted cures didn't work because people didn't really understand what 291 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 1: was happening. You would just fall into this bout of 292 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: laughter that could last for a few hours, which is 293 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: already a very long time to laugh, in my opinion, 294 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 1: not sounding a stick in the mud. And you're laughing 295 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: too long. You don't like funnies. It's forty five minutes, 296 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: the fun is over. Will return to our regularly scheduled 297 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: mirth tomorrow anyway. Yeah, they're laughing for sixteen days. Doesn't 298 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: seem fun at that point, it does. It is kind 299 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: of like an inescapable bout of hiccups, and people were 300 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: running around too. They were very agitated. There was occasional violence, 301 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: but no one could figure out what was causing it. 302 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: And this is where we have to introduce Christian Hempelman 303 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: of Texas A and M University, who's done some pretty 304 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 1: solid work on this. That is correct. Hempelman researched the 305 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 1: incident and described it as a case as we've already 306 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: kind of established of mass psychogenic or also known as 307 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: sociogenic illness, which oftentimes is linked to very high stress situations, 308 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: you know, which certainly applies to schools, you know, where 309 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 1: where the pressure is very high to succeed and to perform, 310 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: especially at certain types of maybe you know, this is 311 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 1: an all girls school, and oftentimes those are anytime there 312 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: are gendered schools, those usually are kind of high performance, 313 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: very academically rigorous settings, wouldn't you say them like boarding schools. 314 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: And again there's a different country, so maybe all the 315 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: schools are segregated in this way. But in my experience, 316 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: you know, when you have an all girls school or 317 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,479 Speaker 1: all boys school, they're either some type of reform school 318 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: or they are like really highly academically focused institutions. Yeah, 319 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: and this is something that Hempelman recognizes, and he says, hey, 320 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: there are some social factors that are coming into play 321 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: that need to be acknowledged, need to be interrogated a 322 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: bit more. And he also points to geopolitical events and 323 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: he says, you know, this country is becoming newly independent, 324 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: and this independence happens just a month before the laughing epidemic? 325 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: Is there a relationship here? And we've got a great 326 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: quote from Himpelman where he says, on the one hand, 327 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 1: it sounded too good to be true, and on the 328 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,360 Speaker 1: other hand, people were citing it in support of all 329 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: kinds of things across the spectrum and contradictory things. So 330 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 1: this caused him to look back at the situation and 331 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 1: ask a surprisingly deep question. He said, what does this 332 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: situation tell us about humor? Right? And also he poses 333 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: a question that we often see in reports of these 334 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: type of events, did this actually happen? All? Of which 335 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: I think is an interesting one because this is you know, 336 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: this is in the sixties, so presumably the reporting would 337 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: be pretty solid. So what do you think he means 338 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: when he says did this actually happen? Because we've also 339 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: seen you know, situations that are over you know, blown 340 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: in the historical record, whether it be a battle or 341 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,959 Speaker 1: whether it be you know, some event like this for particular, 342 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: maybe reasons associated with the political agenda. So do you 343 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: think that's what he's getting at or what do you 344 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: think he means when he said did this actually happen? 345 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: I get the sense that he is question whether the 346 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: story was embellished, right, I think? And I think that's 347 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: a fair question to ask because nineteen sixties we've got 348 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: mass media, but there can still be a lot of storytelling, 349 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Just like how when an 350 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: historic event occurs, you know, it's just the next year 351 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy will be assassinated. And as the decade 352 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 1: wound on since that assassination, more and more people started 353 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: saying they were there, that they actually witnessed it, far 354 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: more people than were actually there. So I think it's 355 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: right to question how the extent of this And he's 356 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: not being a jerk by asking that, but he was, 357 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: you know, he confirmed and multiple people have confirmed that 358 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: this laughing epidemic is real. It did occur, There is documentation. 359 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:32,719 Speaker 1: But Hempelmann gets kind of annoyed when people point to 360 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: this as evidence of laughter being contagious. He has the 361 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: sense that this incident tells us much more about other 362 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 1: stuff and not a lot about humor, because he says, 363 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: you know this, we have to look at this laughter 364 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: as a nerve symptom, a nerve related symptom of psychogenic illness, 365 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 1: and we have to think about it that way. It 366 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: is kind of reductive to say, oh, this is when 367 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: contagious laughter goes wrong, so be careful. You know, if 368 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: something makes you laugh too long, it's interesting, isn't it. 369 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: I mean, the idea we know, we know laughter can 370 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: be you know, contagious, but there are a lot of 371 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: psychological reasons why that might be the case. You know, 372 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: nobody wants to seem like the person that didn't get 373 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 1: the joke. You know. It's a group think kind of mentality, 374 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 1: especially if you're staying a movie, you know, or watching 375 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,959 Speaker 1: a movie with friends. I can usually tell when I 376 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: truly I mean, I think I know, and then all 377 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: three of us know when we truly find something funny. 378 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: But the mind is a very tricky beast, and usually 379 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: I can tell if I truly believe something that's funny 380 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: if I laugh at it. When I'm alone. I laugh 381 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: and stuff by myself all the time. And apparently if 382 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,479 Speaker 1: you make yourself laugh, well you're just hanging out by yourself. 383 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: Apparently that's weird, But I guess that's what we get 384 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: for being only children. That's probably true. You even gonna say, 385 00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: I have a brother that's only a darn't half older 386 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: than me. I laugh on myself all the time. So 387 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: whoever told you that I I is a full bunk 388 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: or we're all, you know, a little strange, or we're 389 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 1: all on our slow boat toward our own laughing epidemic. Yeah. 390 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: Implement points out that in these stressful situations, what happens 391 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: is people find that they cannot extract themselves from an 392 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: environment of constant stress of some sort. And he says 393 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: that in this situation, when a person has no power 394 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: over that stress, their mind as a difficult time coming 395 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: up with an appropriate response. So, again to Himpeleman, you 396 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: can identify certain demographics here, he says, quote, such a 397 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: person is more commonly young than old, identifying female rather 398 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: than male, and they tend to be employees rather than supervisors. 399 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: And this has this feeling, this stress, this response has 400 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: topress itself somehow, and laughter happens to be one of 401 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,719 Speaker 1: the ways that it could come out. At least that's 402 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: what I'm getting from his exploration. What do you think? 403 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: I agree? And I also think part of his annoyance 404 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: with it is in that whole like headline kind of 405 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: mentality that we see all the time. Laughing sickness just 406 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: sounds cool and creepy. Done that. Yeah, it sounds like 407 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 1: a story arc for the joker. And it's and it's 408 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: you know history or you know journalists or whatever it 409 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: might be, a story ends or journalist glomming onto the 410 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: most relatable and understandable aspect of something that is ultimately 411 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 1: much more complex than just that one thing. Oh no, 412 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: are you saying people over simplify history. I think I 413 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: am ben. I know that's a hot take. Oh yes, 414 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 1: Reductive reductive reporting, it's a thing. We see it all 415 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,479 Speaker 1: the time, and again sometimes it is specifically toward an 416 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: agenda of some kind, you know, to to create a 417 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: sense of who the victor was or who the bad 418 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: guys are the good guys. History is written by the winners, 419 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: so check the authors on your textbook. We also know 420 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: that mass psychogenic illness in multiple forms may be fairly common. 421 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: It's just not often reported under that name, because there's 422 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: this idea that you're you're attacking the validity of what's 423 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 1: happening to people, and it really is happening to them, 424 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 1: you know, they're they're not waking up and making the 425 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: choice to laugh for hours and hours. There is a 426 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: real issue there, and when we talk about, okay, when 427 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: we talk about social aspects of epidemics, I think one 428 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: example that would surprise a lot of people, definitely surprise 429 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: me at least, is something called the Pokemon Shock, which 430 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: happened not too long ago in nineteen ninety seven. No, 431 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: were you guys Pokemon kids? Uh No, it was a 432 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: little past my age set. I didn't really become a 433 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: Pokemon kid until I had a kid and then we 434 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: started playing like Pokemon cards. But then she kind of 435 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: got over that pretty quick. We do have a bunch 436 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: of Pokemon cards and it's actually a really fun game. 437 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: It's kind of like Magic to Gathering, but like simpler 438 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: and more you know, kid friendly, But um, it's cool. 439 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: I love you know, I think we all love anime stuff. 440 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: And the design and the whole idea of having to 441 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: catch them all is interesting because it's sort of a 442 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: trap because you can never catch them all because they're 443 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: always making new ones. Well, you can try to catch 444 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: from all I'm trying to do here in my Pokemon 445 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: Gold what you're supposed to be You're so supposed to 446 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: be producing this podcast. I can I can multitask. Okay, 447 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: Well you remember Pokemon Go though that was an epidemic 448 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: on itself. Oh yeah, because we talked about that on 449 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: stuff that I want you to know. The company, I 450 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: think they're called Nantick were originally some sort of governments 451 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: Intel offshoot that then split off and started creating consumer products. 452 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: I remember hanging out with hanging out with work buddies 453 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: and say no, don't put your phone, don't put your 454 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: phone towards me. It was one of those I had 455 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: a brief stint of Pokemon Going, and you would say 456 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: stuff like, oh no, Ben, you don't understand. It's on 457 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: your shoulder, Dude, I got I gotta get it. I'm like, no, 458 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: I'm running away. I don't want to be part of this, 459 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: no part in this. This isn't specifically referring to Pokemon Go. 460 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: This is much earlier than that, Like in the original days, 461 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: right when Pokemon, the cartoon and the you know, there 462 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: were a lot of video games too, There were a 463 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: lot of like, actually, this might even have been earlier 464 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 1: than that. This is in the late nineties, so I'm 465 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: having a hard time thinking of the trajector of all 466 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: those games like Nintendo DS and all of that stuff 467 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: that probably was more in the two thousands. So this 468 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: is really ground zero Pokemon days. Yeah, it really took 469 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: the country by storm in terms of the cartoon and 470 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: the card games. I think was probably the biggest thing. 471 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: Oh man. Yeah, and this is for everyone playing along 472 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: at home. This is one year after the Olympics come 473 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: to Atlanta, Georgian nineteen ninety seven. And a lot of 474 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: this is coming to us from an excellent article on 475 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: Motherboard via vice. Did Pokemon actually give kids seizures in 476 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: the nineties? Shout out to author there, Kaylee Rogers. Kids 477 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: are always going to be into flashy, fascinating stuff, and 478 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: parents are always going to be concerned about some of 479 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: the things that their kids see, even before YouTube became 480 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: so ubiquitous, even before social media came into its heyday. 481 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: But in nineteen ninety seven, people started to ask, what 482 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: if a cartoon can actually hurt my child. And it 483 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: was December of that year that an episode of Pokemon 484 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: aired in Japan, and apparently tens of thousands of children 485 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: watching this experienced seizures, and soon enough people were calling 486 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: this the Pokemon Shock. Yeah, so okay, I was sort 487 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: of off the mark. The nineteen ninety seven is when 488 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: the Pokemon cartoon originated in Japan. The US didn't see, Yeah, 489 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 1: the US didn't see it's Pokemon craze until several years later, 490 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken. The franchise was created by Satoshi 491 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: Tajiri in nineteen ninety six, and then the cartoon debuted 492 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety seven and is ongoing with various iterations 493 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: and you know, tie ins and video games and all 494 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: kinds of different stuff, movies, it's set. But this was 495 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: specifically the original Japanese Pokemon craze that we're talking about here. 496 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: A yeah, and it's almost you know, it almost didn't 497 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: make it to the States because people were worried about 498 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: this Pokemon Shock. The idea that children are getting seizures 499 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: caused a widespread panic in Japan, where Pokemon is still 500 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: very very popular now, and the show went on hiatus 501 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,479 Speaker 1: for four months. It almost got canceled, but a guy 502 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: named Benjamin Radford, who co authored a study on this, 503 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: noted that the story may have become more dangerous than 504 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: the actual events, like the folklore of it, the tale 505 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: of it may have become scarier than what actually transpired. 506 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: And Radford and a co author said this was fascinating. 507 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: They thought they could bring something to the table here. 508 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 1: Sir Radford in particular reopens the case out of quote, 509 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: just my own curiosity, so I could try to figure 510 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: out what happened, and he traces down the exact episode. 511 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: It's the thirty eighth episode of season one. Can you 512 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 1: imagine that every British television producer just had a heart attack. Unbelievable. Yeah, 513 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 1: in terms of the length of the season, right right, 514 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: you know, a British six episodes made right? What was it? 515 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 1: Sherlock Holmes was three episodes, but they were all like 516 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: an hour and a half. Those are like many mini 517 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: series and things like that. A lot of times they're 518 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: self contained and there won't be very many at all 519 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: in a season. But this is much more of an 520 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: American you know, phenomenon, but even more so with these cartoons. 521 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 1: Thirty eight the thirty eighth episode of an eighty two 522 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 1: episode long season, and this for something about this episode, 523 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: right is what triggered this event um. It aired as 524 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: as usual on the evening of December sixteenth, nineteen ninety seven. 525 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 1: The plot is that Ash, who's the young Pokemon trainer 526 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 1: and and his you know, ragtag band of Pokemon uh 527 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:11,320 Speaker 1: get transported into a like I guess it's sort of 528 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: like a kind of like a teleportation machine you might 529 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: see in like Star trek um and they call it 530 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: a Pokemon Transmitter, and they get sent to an alternate 531 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: universe that's kind of digitized versions of reality, and then 532 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: they have to battle a specific Pokemon, a digital pokemon 533 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: um named Porrigon that is being deployed by the villains 534 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: of the show, who are the most low key, least malevolent, 535 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: bungling villains of any kind of show. You know, they're 536 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: always going to lose because they're kind of it's like 537 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,879 Speaker 1: Doctor claw in in Inspector Gadget. The stakes are quite low. 538 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 1: Team rockets Um, and they're always trying to get Pikachu. 539 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: They want Pikachu so bad. Yeah, there's only Yeah, for 540 00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: whatever reason, that's the one they're always after. Them. They've 541 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,240 Speaker 1: got like a cat that they hang out with talking Pokemon. 542 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: They have a pokemon it's a meal that actually talks, 543 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: the only one that's such a cool Pokemon they have, 544 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: and they're always like, no, we need these other Pokemon 545 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: or just like every covetous is what they are. They're 546 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:17,399 Speaker 1: just covetoists, power hungry psychopaths, sociopaths, and they're always pulling 547 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: these heist right, and Egon's part of this heist. Yeah. 548 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:22,800 Speaker 1: It's sort of like Pinky in the Brain, where in 549 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 1: every single episode their goal is to take over the world. 550 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 1: The Team Rocket has a singular goal just like that. 551 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: So after Ash and Company defeat the Porrigon, that's when 552 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 1: the team I wonder, I wish I could pull up 553 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: some images from this episode. I'm imagining it would be 554 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 1: stylized to some degree, this whole digital aspect of it, 555 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: So I'm wondering if they used any kind of blocky 556 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: pixelae kind of stuff to represent this world, like sort 557 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: of bad nineties representations of what the Internet looks like. 558 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: Because they are then attacked by an anti virus program, 559 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: but Pikachu of course saves the day with his famous 560 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: thunderbolt to get it. Electricity, digital world, nice drap Pikachu 561 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: very good. He's very very smart, even despite the fact 562 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: that he can only say so. Nodder very unclear. For 563 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: a lot of these features, I would say I think 564 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: they're all pretty gender. Generation two they introduced gender. They do. Okay, 565 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 1: all right, you know Max, I thought Max wasn't paying attention. 566 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: I thought he was lost in the Pokemon sauce. But 567 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: you're you're, you're here, all right, Yeah, I'm paying attention 568 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 1: to answer the Pokemon question. That has not distinguished whether 569 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: or not I've lost in the Pokemon sauce or not. 570 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 1: You have fair point, my friend, fair points. So okay, 571 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: here's where the poke rubber hits the poke road. The 572 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: animators want to style on this a little bit. It's 573 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: your point all about it being a digital world, and 574 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: so they use a technique that they call paca PoCA 575 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,280 Speaker 1: and this is a this is a process wherein true 576 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 1: colors flash rapidly on the screen. They're red and blue. 577 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,359 Speaker 1: Flash is right, We're all thinking epilepsy at this point, 578 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: are Yeah, twelve flashes per second for about six seconds, 579 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: and you know we epilepsies absolutely something that can be 580 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:18,240 Speaker 1: triggered by flashing lights. Well, nowadays, there's warnings, there's trigger 581 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,359 Speaker 1: warnings for anything, like I just recently saw the new 582 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: movie from Brandon Cronenberg, Infinity Pool, and it uses all 583 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: in camera and practical effects entirely, and there is a 584 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: scene that there's like a transformation of one of the 585 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:37,320 Speaker 1: characters that is incredibly strobe. And the same with I 586 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,800 Speaker 1: think the most recent Incredibles movie, there was a sign 587 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 1: before you even bought tickets, letting you know, and I 588 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: have to imagine that that is largely we have this 589 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: event to thank for that kind of thoughtfulness, you know, 590 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: in terms of like making sure that everyone has a 591 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: good time. There's some people I know that have that 592 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: are triggered by these types of flashes, that just can't 593 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: go to concerts for fear that there might be some 594 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,319 Speaker 1: sequence of lights that might bring on an attack, right, 595 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,879 Speaker 1: and it might be something that a venue doesn't think 596 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,319 Speaker 1: is extreme enough to warrant heads up, but it can 597 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: still affect people with photosensitive epilepsy. And this is what 598 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 1: parents are worried about. This is what a lot of 599 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,879 Speaker 1: people in the Japanese public are concerned with because they think, 600 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 1: you know, at the very end of a show their 601 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: kid loves, their kid might get a seizure due to 602 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: this visual effect. But if you look at the reports 603 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,760 Speaker 1: and you see some discrepancies. The reports suggested or implied 604 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:42,720 Speaker 1: that up to twelve thousand kids experienced dizziness, blurred vision, 605 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: and convulsions after watching this episode of the show. But 606 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 1: about one and one hundred people have epilepsy, and only 607 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 1: three percent of those one and one hundred people have 608 00:39:55,200 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: photosensitive epilepsy specifically. That's right, So it's not you know, 609 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: one size fits all type situation. Um, that rate is 610 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,879 Speaker 1: a little bit higher in uh, in young children. But uh, 611 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: these reports that were talking about suggested that ten times 612 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,920 Speaker 1: as many people had uh photosensitive epilepsy as might have 613 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: been expected. Um, so perhaps this is a regional thing. 614 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 1: It's it's, it's, it's, it's, it's it's a little bit unclear, 615 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 1: right then, I mean the question then becomes, our Japanese 616 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,439 Speaker 1: kids more susceptible to photosensitive epilepsy? Is there a higher 617 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 1: number that that sort of you know, uh kind of 618 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 1: bucks the trend. I guess, right, that's the greater trend 619 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: of of just human beings. Or is there something else 620 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,839 Speaker 1: at play here? Right? Right? Max You've got a great 621 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,399 Speaker 1: note about the numbers here where where you you said, look, 622 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: using these percentages as as we understand them, now, forty 623 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: million children would have to watch this show, and they 624 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,239 Speaker 1: would only be watching it in Japan, right or primarily 625 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: watching it in Japan. And for another new here, in 626 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, the population of Japan was just a 627 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: little over one hundred and twenty six million, So this 628 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:22,799 Speaker 1: would be an incredible, a preposterous number of children, right right, 629 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 1: Like you know, if we if we want to try 630 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,399 Speaker 1: to like eliminate variables or possible things, we can kind 631 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 1: of eliminate like, was it just a ridiculous number of 632 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 1: people watched this episode? But it's like no, it's like 633 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 1: the amount of people who would have to watch this 634 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: episode for this normal percentages to make sense for the 635 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: amount of people who got sick just don't line up. Yeah, 636 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 1: but the damage has been done. People were worried, you know, 637 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: and they're your kids, you don't want they're someone's kids. 638 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: In general, people don't like bad stuff to happen to 639 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: children because in general people are decent. At least call 640 00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,160 Speaker 1: me an optimist, but that's what I would learn opt 641 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 1: to believe thank you, thank you. It's it's a struggle. 642 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:06,919 Speaker 1: I'm a nihilistic optimist. You're an optimist, thank you, Max 643 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 1: an optimist Prime. Oh chucks, you guys, you guys, I 644 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 1: didn't even get you anything today. But call me you're 645 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 1: a megatron exactly, I'll be your huckleberry. But hey, the question, so, 646 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,320 Speaker 1: what is the issue here? How could this be something 647 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,240 Speaker 1: similar to the kind of copycat mentality that we've been describing, 648 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:33,280 Speaker 1: you know that would require people physically seeing others exhibiting 649 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: these symptoms. If if these kids are watching this show 650 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 1: in their own private homes, they wouldn't know what was 651 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: happening with the other kids watching the show in their 652 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:48,320 Speaker 1: own private homes. Right, Yeah, And this is where Radford 653 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 1: goes into the psychogenic aspect, just like the laughing epidemic, 654 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:59,280 Speaker 1: and he's saying, look, it's possibly a self produced physical reaction. 655 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 1: People have been convinced by these external influences. You know. 656 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,840 Speaker 1: Another thing that makes at least in my experience, another 657 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: thing that kids really love is getting access to stuff 658 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:16,120 Speaker 1: they're not supposed to get access to. Right, So, how 659 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: much cooler did that episode of Pokemon become when someone said, hey, 660 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,920 Speaker 1: you can't watch this show anymore. And so now you're 661 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,720 Speaker 1: a kid, You've heard the stories, right, and you sneak, 662 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 1: you somehow sneak inter viewing, and you are so certain 663 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:37,240 Speaker 1: that something will happen to you, that the reaction occurs 664 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 1: or some kind of some kind of reaction and curse. 665 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:45,239 Speaker 1: And again, like any psychogenetic phenomenon, this does not mean 666 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 1: people are faking it. They're not making it up. By 667 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,319 Speaker 1: and large, the symptoms are real. It's just they may 668 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 1: be happening due to some other cause. And with this, 669 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,680 Speaker 1: we realize that we started digging in these into these stories, 670 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 1: and we discovered this larger phenomenon, and we still have 671 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,080 Speaker 1: more that we want to explore. So this is going 672 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 1: to be we talked to area, this is going to 673 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: be a recurring thing for us. There's so many strange 674 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:22,759 Speaker 1: historical tales of epidemics from human civilization that have a 675 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,600 Speaker 1: lot of these commonalities. For now, nol Max, it sounds 676 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: like we're gonna we're gonna call this a day. And 677 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 1: I hope that this episode does not itself become the 678 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 1: cause of an epidemic, or maybe if it's a good epidemic. 679 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 1: Epidemics are never good, right, No, they are not. I 680 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:42,160 Speaker 1: do kind of want to just toss the stand here 681 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,759 Speaker 1: at the end, because I was thinking about this when 682 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:46,919 Speaker 1: we're going through Pokemon's shock. But it's like, I haven't 683 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,040 Speaker 1: having problems with my skin like allergic reactions. And so 684 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,319 Speaker 1: one of these things my doctor has me doing now 685 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 1: is reintroducing things that like like basically try to eliminate 686 00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,360 Speaker 1: them as being a potential allergen. And so this weekend 687 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,839 Speaker 1: I treat us for the first time in a long time, 688 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,319 Speaker 1: and I'll tell you right afterwards, for about the next hour, 689 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,719 Speaker 1: I thought I was having an allergic breakout, and then 690 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:10,440 Speaker 1: I went and did something and I was fine. And 691 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: so it shows what like, you know, are what we 692 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 1: can be like with situations like this, the power of suggestion, right, 693 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:25,920 Speaker 1: because the mind is an amazing and often misunderstood phenomenon itself. 694 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:31,040 Speaker 1: So we hope you enjoyed this exploration of epidemics. We 695 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,399 Speaker 1: are going to be back with some more, including things 696 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:36,879 Speaker 1: like well, without spoiling it too much, we're gonna get 697 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 1: to Koro at some point, and we can't wait for 698 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 1: you to join us on that journey. In the meantime, 699 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,800 Speaker 1: Noll you think we got a Disney related episode in 700 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,359 Speaker 1: the future. Maybe, Oh my god, Yeah, that's a really 701 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 1: good point because when we were talking to our buddies 702 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,239 Speaker 1: over at my Mama told you for a segment that 703 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 1: should be coming out before long with the stuff that 704 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 1: I want you to know, Crew, Matt, myself and you've been. 705 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:02,680 Speaker 1: They were asking all these questions about Disney where I 706 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 1: just returned from. One of them being is it true 707 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,600 Speaker 1: that at Disney no one can actually ever die there 708 00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,560 Speaker 1: because if you die there, they remove your corpse and 709 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,839 Speaker 1: basically just trundle you out in the front door through 710 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,520 Speaker 1: a series of secret tunnels. So while this might be 711 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,799 Speaker 1: a bit of maybe this is a crossover episode where 712 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,840 Speaker 1: we have Matt on and talk about some Disney history 713 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 1: kind of conspiracies that are a little more lighthearted, maybe 714 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,280 Speaker 1: something more in the ridiculous history vein because those parks 715 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 1: at this point, I mean, Disney parks are fifty years 716 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,360 Speaker 1: old at this point, this is the fiftieth anniversary, and 717 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:45,440 Speaker 1: they've repurposed so many things. They've rebuilt things, they've replicated things. 718 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,560 Speaker 1: I mean, there really is some interesting history to the 719 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:52,000 Speaker 1: Disney theme parks and of themselves outside of just the 720 00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 1: larger company, not to mention. I don't know if you 721 00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,280 Speaker 1: guys know this, you probably do. But finally, Mickey Mouse 722 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:03,680 Speaker 1: is about to officially be in the public domain because Disney. Yeah, 723 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,200 Speaker 1: it's happening. Disney is if anyone has followed this for 724 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,600 Speaker 1: a long time, the Disney, the Walt Disney Company, has 725 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:15,360 Speaker 1: single handedly been responsible for significant changes in laws surrounding 726 00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,719 Speaker 1: intellectual property and trademark. And they, you know, we're able 727 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:24,720 Speaker 1: to continuously extend the Mickey Mouse character, you know, extend 728 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,759 Speaker 1: that copywriter trade. I'm maybe confusing the two, but the 729 00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,800 Speaker 1: point is things are supposed to enter the public domain 730 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 1: after one hundred years or so. For example, Winnie the 731 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,960 Speaker 1: Pooh just did. And you'll notice there is a slasher 732 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 1: movie called Winnie the Pooh, Blood and Honey that is 733 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,240 Speaker 1: a direct result of that character entering the public domain. 734 00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:49,239 Speaker 1: And that could soon happen with the Mouse himself in 735 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:53,480 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, depending on what Disney, what the Mouse's 736 00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,960 Speaker 1: lawyers do, Mickey what a journey. Mickey's also you know, 737 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:03,360 Speaker 1: well established in pan h So we'll see how this 738 00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:08,919 Speaker 1: affects We'll see how this affects America's favorite mouse. They're 739 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,319 Speaker 1: potentially saying that the that the um did that Mickey 740 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:17,279 Speaker 1: will be replaced by the Purple Dragon figment, as as 741 00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,439 Speaker 1: the mascot of the Disney parks. At the very least, 742 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,759 Speaker 1: Disney's characters a lot of changes that didn't age well, 743 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:28,000 Speaker 1: you know, Song of the South, etc. So we have 744 00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:32,440 Speaker 1: definitely got an episode or more on Disney that's going 745 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:34,560 Speaker 1: to be coming your way. Folks. We can't wait for 746 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:38,120 Speaker 1: you to join us and stay tuned for some of 747 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,640 Speaker 1: our future episodes. We have some guests coming on. We 748 00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:44,000 Speaker 1: don't want to spoil too much, but you're in for 749 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,440 Speaker 1: some wild rides in the meantime. Speaking of wild rides, 750 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,400 Speaker 1: thanks to our pal Alex Williams for this amazing soundtrack. 751 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:56,040 Speaker 1: Thanks to our research associate and superproducer Max Williams. Thanks 752 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,920 Speaker 1: to Disney, Thanks to Japan Noel, Thanks to you. I 753 00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:01,760 Speaker 1: really now I'm in my head about it. I really 754 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:06,160 Speaker 1: hope that we are never responsible for an epidemic. Oh yeah, me, 755 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,600 Speaker 1: I don't want to be patient zero or one, you 756 00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:13,920 Speaker 1: know two? Uh yeah, No, it's it's it's a very 757 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:18,600 Speaker 1: it's a it's a heavy burden to carry. It's heavy, 758 00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,879 Speaker 1: heavy waste the crown. Oh man, what a day we'll 759 00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:32,800 Speaker 1: see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from my 760 00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,040 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 761 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:37,720 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.