Speaker 1: Welcome to Go, Ask Alli, a production of Shonda Land
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Speaker 1: every single day is that I always have a choice.
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Speaker 1: Welcome to Go, ask Allie. I'm Alli Wentworth. Do you
Speaker 1: know what the metaverse is? Because I do not, and
Speaker 1: I'm already terrified of it. I don't want to live
Speaker 1: in the metaverse. I don't want to make new friends
Speaker 1: in the metaverse. I like where I am right now,
Speaker 1: in three dimensional real life. It is such a big
Speaker 1: topic that we have two guests to cover it. Ibrahim
Speaker 1: Bighilly is a digital forensics expert and professor who will
Speaker 1: tell us what the hall of the metaverse is and
Speaker 1: then Jim Steyer, founder of common Sense Media, will fill
Speaker 1: us in on big tech and how his organization is
Speaker 1: advocating for kids safety and privacy in this wild West
Speaker 1: of digital media. Dr Ibrahim Bigeelly is a professor of
Speaker 1: computer science and cybersecurity at Louisiana State University. Prior to that,
Speaker 1: he was the founding director of the Connecticut Institute of
Speaker 1: Technology at the University of New Haven, specializing in cyber
Speaker 1: security and forensics. In twenty nine, the National Security Agency
Speaker 1: gave you an H the prestigious designation as a Center
Speaker 1: of Academic Excellence in cyber Operations, and in two did
Speaker 1: the same for LSU, becoming one of just twenty two
Speaker 1: schools on the elective list. He also has co authored
Speaker 1: over seventy publications, and his work has been featured in
Speaker 1: news and media worldwide and in twenty languages. Hello, Ibrahim,
Speaker 1: I'm going to call you Abe for the rest of
Speaker 1: this podcast, after I've established your very elegant name. Um.
Speaker 1: The reason I'm having you on besides your a genius
Speaker 1: of all this uh virtual techno stuff that I feel,
Speaker 1: I still scream at my iPhone to you know, turn
Speaker 1: off the lights. You know, I look at Instagram, social media.
Speaker 1: The metaverse is kind of like the wild West. And
Speaker 1: I know, as we're trying to figure it all out,
Speaker 1: as parents were trying to figure it all out for
Speaker 1: our kids. But let's just start with the big, broad,
Speaker 1: simple question, which is, what the hell is the metaverse?
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you've hit on something that's close
Speaker 1: to my heart, right, what is the metaverse? And you know,
Speaker 1: people will give you many different answers, but the real
Speaker 1: answer is nobody knows what metverse is because in my
Speaker 1: personal opinion, it doesn't really exist at this point in time.
Speaker 1: It's what people are trying to build, right. Um So,
Speaker 1: so the metaverse is supposed to be essentially an alternative
Speaker 1: virtual world where you know, you could do things in
Speaker 1: a virtual environment with your let's say VR headset or
Speaker 1: mixed reality headset, and you can socialize with people. You could,
Speaker 1: um hang out with people, you can go to class,
Speaker 1: you could do all the things that you do in
Speaker 1: the real world, but in the virtual world. That's basically
Speaker 1: what it's supposed to be. Um it wasn't invented by Facebook,
Speaker 1: and I just wanted to make sure I say that
Speaker 1: because Facebook ream in itself to meta and you can't
Speaker 1: really take that credit for virtual reality. And that sort
Speaker 1: of thing has has existed for many years, so it's
Speaker 1: not like something that's uh that that we're just talking
Speaker 1: about now. Well I wasn't even gonna mention Facebook, So
Speaker 1: how about that? Um, I think of it as sort
Speaker 1: of a virtual reality based world that's separate from our
Speaker 1: physical one. Is that aptly put? Yes and no? Because
Speaker 1: it could be actually part of your physical world if
Speaker 1: you're talking about mixed reality or augmented reality, right, So
Speaker 1: you like the hollow lens glasses, Um, you see the
Speaker 1: physical world, but you augment it with information. Right. So
Speaker 1: for example, if I'm wearing my glasses and my glasses
Speaker 1: are telling the turn left, and there's a signal in
Speaker 1: my glass telling the turn left, I could still see
Speaker 1: the physical world, but now the virtual world is also
Speaker 1: interacting with me and overlaid on top of the physical world.
Speaker 1: And virtual reality is when you are immersed into a
Speaker 1: virtual environment completely. So if you wear a headset, it's
Speaker 1: going to cover your eyes completely. You might have headphones
Speaker 1: where you're listening, so you can't see anything except the
Speaker 1: virtual world. So when people use the word metaphors loosely, there.
Speaker 1: I think including this idea of augmented reality and mixed
Speaker 1: reality into that equation. But it is it is a
Speaker 1: reality that if you pull off your glasses or your
Speaker 1: helmet or your goggles, you are no longer in that world.
Speaker 1: It's a three D form, yes, uh, definitely, it could
Speaker 1: be a three D form. It could be a two
Speaker 1: D form also. I mean a good example if that
Speaker 1: would be Ready Player more in the movie, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure a lot of people have watched it. You know,
Speaker 1: you're you're in this alternative world where that people are
Speaker 1: basically stuck in and they live in and and you know, um,
Speaker 1: maybe we'll get to the matrix one day where you
Speaker 1: plug in. You know, it feels like we're getting closer
Speaker 1: to that. Are you for or against the metaverse? Like?
Speaker 1: Have you bought beach side property there? Uh? I mean no,
Speaker 1: and I don't intend to do so. UM, I understand
Speaker 1: the potential market value, right. UM. I was at a conference,
Speaker 1: a really big conference in California, UM, talking about you know,
Speaker 1: virtual reality, security and all these problems, and I basically
Speaker 1: told people the metaverse, as you know, maybe Facebook or
Speaker 1: other organizations are trying to build it is nothing but
Speaker 1: an app store, and they looked at me, it's like,
Speaker 1: what do you mean. I'm like, it's nothing but an
Speaker 1: app store. Like, it's an app store for all of
Speaker 1: these different virtual worlds that other people are going to create.
Speaker 1: You know, you go on your phone and you download
Speaker 1: an app, you know, for video conferencing, you download games,
Speaker 1: and you download all of these various things and then
Speaker 1: you immerse yourself in them. And if you think about
Speaker 1: when the dot net era started kind of emerging, Yahoo
Speaker 1: and all of these companies, what they wanted to do
Speaker 1: was to become the front page of the Internet, right like,
Speaker 1: and Google of course was a big winner in that
Speaker 1: regard towards the end, which is, you know, through a
Speaker 1: search engine. But if you think of the metaverse, I
Speaker 1: mean the metaverse, the winners are the ones that are
Speaker 1: going to be that that front page for all of
Speaker 1: the other things that people are gonna build in those
Speaker 1: virtual worlds. Um and and I think that's really what's
Speaker 1: happening right So um that that's really where my mind
Speaker 1: is is we're we're still at the stage of creating
Speaker 1: some environments that people can be in, but not necessarily
Speaker 1: the environment that's the access to all other environments. Well,
Speaker 1: why don't we just stay in the reality. Why do
Speaker 1: we have to go to the virtual reality? I mean,
Speaker 1: that's a great question. Why why do we have Instagram accounts?
Speaker 1: Like why do we want to show what we just ate?
Speaker 1: I mean, humans, um, humans I believe have a tendency
Speaker 1: to want to share at least good parts of their
Speaker 1: life on the internet. And there's a whole you know,
Speaker 1: theory of de individual ation when you look at psychology
Speaker 1: and and you know how when you're online you feel
Speaker 1: more anonymous. Therefore sometimes you can be more of yourself.
Speaker 1: So there's all of these various reasons why you know,
Speaker 1: online environments can actually be quite awesome, and especially virtual environments.
Speaker 1: Like you know, if your grandma is you know, older,
Speaker 1: and she came from another country and she wanted to
Speaker 1: see this church that wasn't her hometown, but she can't
Speaker 1: travel anymore, and all of a sudden, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: you can get her to see that, uh, And those
Speaker 1: sort of things have happened right where it really gives
Speaker 1: them a sense of nostalgia and a sense of something
Speaker 1: that that's awesome to look forward to. Um. But you know,
Speaker 1: shouldn't be everything, and that's really the question that I
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, I think just we're as humans.
Speaker 1: We get addicted to certain technologies and certain things, and
Speaker 1: you know, the technology goes out there and and there's
Speaker 1: a lot of issues that we weren't anticipating, right. But also,
Speaker 1: you know, when I think about when you were talking
Speaker 1: about Instagram and now virtual reality, it's sort of all
Speaker 1: boils down to connection. People want connection. Um. Certainly we
Speaker 1: saw her in the pandemic that particularly teenagers needed connection
Speaker 1: more than anything, and virtual reality would benefit that, just
Speaker 1: like Instagram and you know, so so much of social
Speaker 1: media did benefit them from from being lonely. And I
Speaker 1: have read that there are benefits, um, you know, in
Speaker 1: virtual reality in the metaverse for autism, therapy, learning, retention, socializing.
Speaker 1: So yes, I think there are with most Internet stuff,
Speaker 1: there are good stimulating factors to it. On the other side,
Speaker 1: I worry about a word that you just said a
Speaker 1: minute ago, which is addiction, because we seem to have
Speaker 1: an addiction problem in our culture when it comes to technology,
Speaker 1: you know, and it started with Facebook and then Instagram,
Speaker 1: and you know, how do you ever get your kids
Speaker 1: to disconnect from the metaverse? Why not just live there
Speaker 1: full time. Um. I mean, it is a problem, and
Speaker 1: we're starting to see parts of it. Um. But then
Speaker 1: the question when it comes to kids, right, is at
Speaker 1: what age is it appropriate for you to have that?
Speaker 1: And and different companies have different ages, Different companies have
Speaker 1: different age limits, and there aren't really any sort of
Speaker 1: standards for us to understand that a little better. And
Speaker 1: and that's kind of a problem. You know, you don't
Speaker 1: just give something to everybody without any rules, like there's
Speaker 1: gonna there has to be some rules of engagement, right.
Speaker 1: There was also a study, um, I think the Information
Speaker 1: Commission's Office, uh did a study where they went into
Speaker 1: VR I think it was v our chat fire number correctly,
Speaker 1: and you know, the researchers found that users, including miners,
Speaker 1: were exposed to abusive behaviors about every seven minutes. They said, um,
Speaker 1: things like, you know, miners being exposed to graphic sexual content,
Speaker 1: Like should that be the case? Of course not, that
Speaker 1: should not be the case. And here's the problem. When
Speaker 1: your kid is is you know, has that VR headset on.
Speaker 1: You can't most of the time see what they're seeing
Speaker 1: unless they cast it onto another device. So let's go
Speaker 1: through a few of the warnings, particularly for children, because
Speaker 1: let's say they're on gun raiders or one of the
Speaker 1: like the gaming devices. Everything I've read they is that
Speaker 1: kids are exposed to bad words, racist words, and sexual content.
Speaker 1: Now I'm not saying that's every time they log their
Speaker 1: brains into this, but you know that's that's enough to
Speaker 1: be scared of as a parent, just those three things. Actually,
Speaker 1: I think it's even worse than that. There's bullying, their
Speaker 1: sexual harassment. Um, there's grooming is a big thing. Obviously, racism, violence, content, mocking. Certainly,
Speaker 1: I have two daughters. You know, I'm worried about how
Speaker 1: you know safe that world is for girls because on Instagram,
Speaker 1: you know, they have a lot of issues with appearance
Speaker 1: and self esteem and here in the metaverse they can
Speaker 1: make themselves look and be anything they want, which, on
Speaker 1: the one hand, is not realistic, and in how they
Speaker 1: see theirselves, it does set them up. As you said, grooming, Uh,
Speaker 1: explain what virtual reality grooming looks like? How do you
Speaker 1: do that in a VR setting? You know, you would
Speaker 1: have essentially an adult that would be in virtual reality
Speaker 1: and they would talk to children and start slowly talking
Speaker 1: to them about, you know, things that are completely inappropriate. Um,
Speaker 1: and eventually get them to do things that they shouldn't
Speaker 1: be doing. And when you say get them to do things,
Speaker 1: are you talking about getting their avatar to do things? Well?
Speaker 1: Their avatar. But here's the thing. If the avatar is
Speaker 1: doing it, um that sort representation of a person in
Speaker 1: the real world, right, it's not just a theoretical avatar.
Speaker 1: That's that's just doing things. So I think that's that's
Speaker 1: the problem there. Can you block avatars? If I felt
Speaker 1: uncomfortable with somebody or if my child was complaining to
Speaker 1: me about an avatar, could I block them? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: think it just depends on on the application you're using.
Speaker 1: Some applications might enable you to block certain characters and
Speaker 1: avatars and others won't. And and a lot of systems
Speaker 1: don't have the parental controls that are typically available on
Speaker 1: other devices, those sort of headsets. I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: know how old your children are, but you know, my daughter,
Speaker 1: she's younger, and she's on what I call a gateway drug,
Speaker 1: which is rule Blocks. Right everywhere I go people are
Speaker 1: talking about roadblocks because Roadblocks is a game that's three
Speaker 1: D and you interact with other kids and things like that,
Speaker 1: and it's just blown up, you know, at least that's
Speaker 1: on a tablet. Asparental controls and so there are parental
Speaker 1: controls for the metaverse specifically, well, again, the metaverse doesn't exist.
Speaker 1: There are there are, right, it's just something that they're
Speaker 1: trying to sell us on that hasn't happened yet that
Speaker 1: you know. But there are parental controls in some of
Speaker 1: the applications that that you can use, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: on your tablets and on your VR headsets and things
Speaker 1: like that. That might not be part of the entire system, right,
Speaker 1: but it could be parentical controls for a specific app
Speaker 1: that would be installed on your on your device. So
Speaker 1: is it perfect no? Is it an added level of security? Absolutely,
Speaker 1: But we also have to take into account something else, right,
Speaker 1: Like we are operating under the assumption that all the
Speaker 1: kids were talking about that are using these VR systems
Speaker 1: are in great home environments, you know, we're talking about
Speaker 1: this like you know, all parents and all kids lives
Speaker 1: are equal, and that's not the case because a lot
Speaker 1: of the kids that might get groomed, or a lot
Speaker 1: of the kids that might have challenges are basically using
Speaker 1: this as an escape mechanism potentially from their real world,
Speaker 1: which is not a great world to be in in
Speaker 1: the first place. And that's when you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of the taking advantage off might actually take place as
Speaker 1: they do in the physical world. I know you say
Speaker 1: this is also the physical world, but I mean, you know, absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think legally it's a challenging question, but
Speaker 1: psychologically it's a very important question for us to pursue.
Speaker 1: I mean, think about you know, sexual assault, if that
Speaker 1: happens in VR, which people have claimed that's happened to them.
Speaker 1: You know, what are you going to argue that this
Speaker 1: is just the virtual world and and that's it because
Speaker 1: of immersion, they feel like they're really in this place. Um,
Speaker 1: could be really damaging and you can't just be like,
Speaker 1: that's not real. There was no real you know, physical
Speaker 1: sexual assault, right because there is the there is the
Speaker 1: psychological trauma, but there may not be you know, bruises
Speaker 1: or pregnancy or scratches. You know, they're like forensic evidence
Speaker 1: of it, right absolutely, um. And actually that's a lot
Speaker 1: of the work that we initially did. My area of
Speaker 1: expertise is mostly in digital forensics, so like you know,
Speaker 1: investigations that involve computer based systems and extracting the evidence
Speaker 1: in illegal and scientific manner. And one of the first
Speaker 1: things we did with work that was funded by the
Speaker 1: National Science Foundation is look at what evidence can we
Speaker 1: recover from these systems so we can answer the questions
Speaker 1: of the who, the what, the when, and the where um.
Speaker 1: And we were able to find some good stuff at
Speaker 1: least with the systems we looked at. If you'd like
Speaker 1: me to talk about it, yeah, share it with me.
Speaker 1: Unless it's secret, it's people can read it. Um. So
Speaker 1: there's uh security research. We have this thing called a
Speaker 1: man in the middle attack, and it's the idea that
Speaker 1: you know, right now, I'm communicating with you, and if
Speaker 1: there was somebody that was intercepting the communication between me
Speaker 1: and you, they would be injecting themselves in the middle.
Speaker 1: And that's what's called the man in the middle attack.
Speaker 1: So imagine you're in a virtual room, maybe having dinner
Speaker 1: with your significant other, right, or doing something very personal,
Speaker 1: and there's this person right there in the virtual environment.
Speaker 1: You don't know that they're there, you can't hear them,
Speaker 1: you can't see them, but they're they're right. I call
Speaker 1: this like the invisible peeping tom right. And then the
Speaker 1: human joystick attacked. So essentially, if you're if you're playing
Speaker 1: virtual reality, you're in a virtual world, but that world
Speaker 1: is reflected in the real world, right, So if I
Speaker 1: move my hand up, or I move my hand down,
Speaker 1: or if I walk around, you're still walking in a
Speaker 1: real room, right, um, And that real room has boundaries
Speaker 1: like a wall, and and typically what you do in VRS,
Speaker 1: you you detect the real wall so you don't hit
Speaker 1: it in the virtual wall, so that when you get
Speaker 1: close to the real wall, it kind of gives you
Speaker 1: a sign that this is a real wall, don't walk
Speaker 1: into it. So we were just playing with a file
Speaker 1: and he like it was a bug in the code
Speaker 1: that moved the center of the room, and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, the girl that was in the virtual environment
Speaker 1: just moved to that location that he specified by mistake.
Speaker 1: And we're like, whoa, you can control people. You could
Speaker 1: move them, right, So basically you can just start pushing
Speaker 1: people to any location you want them to to move to.
Speaker 1: And we thought that was really interesting and we called
Speaker 1: it the human joystick attack. Oh my gosh. And there's
Speaker 1: also I've read about cyber sickness. People get motion sickness
Speaker 1: from in this VR world. Yeah, if you're in VR
Speaker 1: for a long time, it doesn't make you feel great.
Speaker 1: Number one. Number two, We we also ran that as
Speaker 1: an experiment where the environment started flipping around and moving
Speaker 1: around and made you feel really sick. Um. We also
Speaker 1: did the new We called it an overlay attack. So
Speaker 1: imagine you're in virtual reality playing your game and then
Speaker 1: people take over your headset by just putting images in
Speaker 1: front of it, and now you can't see anything. Worse,
Speaker 1: what if they start putting pictures of your own kids
Speaker 1: in front of you? Like that going to really psychologically
Speaker 1: impact the person that's uh, that's in that environment as well. UM,
Speaker 1: I mean, what kind of parental guidances are you going
Speaker 1: to put in place in your home for this? The
Speaker 1: main thing for me is, you know, we can't control
Speaker 1: everything that our kids do, but what you can do
Speaker 1: is at least have some parental controls. One of the
Speaker 1: the simplest things that parents can do. UM. You know,
Speaker 1: if you're using a computer or laptop or a VR
Speaker 1: system or an in our system or something like that,
Speaker 1: you should probably be using it in some public space,
Speaker 1: like in your TV room where there's other people around you,
Speaker 1: Because I think is as soon as they're putting an
Speaker 1: environment where they're completely on their own, other things could happen.
Speaker 1: If you're using the roadblocks, you know, make sure that
Speaker 1: they can't chat with other people. Make sure that you
Speaker 1: know you're choosing the right age limits for the applications
Speaker 1: or the games that they have access to through roadblocks
Speaker 1: and other systems like that. And I assume that you
Speaker 1: as a parent have the same in conversations about virtual
Speaker 1: reality that you would with any other app or social media,
Speaker 1: which is you know this, if an avatar you don't recognize,
Speaker 1: you know, comes into play, you know you have. It's
Speaker 1: like there's a whole education for parents every time something
Speaker 1: in this cyber world gets created. I mean, I say
Speaker 1: to my kids, let us know if anything makes you
Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable. We just want to make sure that there's
Speaker 1: an open line of communication is I think the most
Speaker 1: critical thing. And I think I think by by ensuring
Speaker 1: that you constantly tell them you can tell us anything,
Speaker 1: we're not going to be mad at you. Um now
Speaker 1: you might get mad at them, but that's you know,
Speaker 1: that's another story. But in that scenario, like you can
Speaker 1: tell us anything and you know we're here to support you.
Speaker 1: I think goes a long way in terms of ensuring
Speaker 1: that you know they can come to you with with
Speaker 1: with with the things they they should be telling you, right.
Speaker 1: I mean the truth is, I think that we just
Speaker 1: can't keep up anymore. UM. I mean, if you really
Speaker 1: want to be honest and we want to talk openly, yes,
Speaker 1: I do want to be honest. We can't keep up,
Speaker 1: you know. And the amount of information that's thrown at
Speaker 1: us constantly is parents, is I think beyond our ability
Speaker 1: to comprehend what's going on. And I'm the person that
Speaker 1: does this for a living in terms of research, and
Speaker 1: I'm saying I can't keep up anymore. UM. I can
Speaker 1: only imagine, you know what other parents that are not
Speaker 1: in the technology field, they're probably feeling like, oh my god. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I am one of those parents, And I feel like
Speaker 1: there's a mental health crisis with these younger generations right now.
Speaker 1: And I can't tell if virtual reality, the metaverse, social media,
Speaker 1: if it's helping them, if it's not helping them, because certainly,
Speaker 1: I know, like I said before, the during the pandemic,
Speaker 1: that they were able to connect. I know that there
Speaker 1: are good, positive socializing aspects of this. UM. But do
Speaker 1: you think that there's a benefit for for younger children
Speaker 1: attains when it comes to anxiety. Well, I do definitely
Speaker 1: believe there's good stuff and there's bad stuff with every
Speaker 1: single thing that we do. There's definitely some very positive
Speaker 1: use cases for you know, using virtual reality, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: for people that might not have great social skills, for
Speaker 1: folks that might have autism and um. But also there's
Speaker 1: some very negative things about it, like all the data
Speaker 1: that they might be collecting with your eyes and your
Speaker 1: gazes and well into that data you know, being used
Speaker 1: positively or negatively and and are they just you know,
Speaker 1: leveraging that data for making more money or not? Um
Speaker 1: And and these are the sort of questions that that
Speaker 1: we need to think about very carefully, other than the
Speaker 1: safety issues and of course a lot of the challenges
Speaker 1: that we about. But definitely definitely there are positive use cases, um.
Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean that they're going to overpower the
Speaker 1: negative use cases. And that's that's kind of the the
Speaker 1: crux of the problem. Right As a security researcher, you
Speaker 1: realize that when companies are releasing new technology, they're trying
Speaker 1: to get it to market as quickly as possible. Right.
Speaker 1: So security is a complete afterthought. Um and and and
Speaker 1: that's one of the issues that really happens. When people
Speaker 1: get excited about technology, they just want to watch it,
Speaker 1: they want to put it in people's hands, and the
Speaker 1: rest is history. Right, And then all of these problems
Speaker 1: start appearing, and we're not thinking about the problems. So
Speaker 1: you know, sorry, I'm kind of drawing a dark cloud here. No,
Speaker 1: I'm happy you're drawing a dark cloud because I have
Speaker 1: a lot of fears, as I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people do about this. And I'm even gonna make you
Speaker 1: go darker by asking you what are your biggest fears
Speaker 1: about the future? And the metaverse? Um? I mean, so,
Speaker 1: so there's there's the saying, right, money is the is
Speaker 1: the root of all evil? Right, that whole metaverse thing.
Speaker 1: It's not really driven by you know, it's not it's
Speaker 1: not pure. People are not trying to move into that
Speaker 1: direction because they're thinking that it's really going to help people.
Speaker 1: The hard to push from all these big companies. It's
Speaker 1: not driven by we're gonna make your life better, right,
Speaker 1: It's really driven by we're gonna make more money. Right. So,
Speaker 1: so that's really what scares me is is there's no
Speaker 1: real foresight and thinking about the potential impact of moving
Speaker 1: in that direction, like in terms of how do we
Speaker 1: do this right? And I think that's honestly one of
Speaker 1: my biggest problems with not just the metaverse, with any
Speaker 1: new technology that's coming out. You know, I think that
Speaker 1: parents should know that at this point the metaverse is
Speaker 1: not there, but that extended reality, virtual reality, augmented reality
Speaker 1: is truly there, UM. And and you know, we need
Speaker 1: to be very cognizant and as parents, we need to
Speaker 1: maybe unite in some fashion to make sure that you know,
Speaker 1: things are being done in a way that that will
Speaker 1: benefit our kids in our society. And I think that
Speaker 1: that's that's an important message that we need to all
Speaker 1: consider as we're moving towards the soul called metaverse. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: thank you. UM. Before I end this, I want to
Speaker 1: just ask you, Abe, how did you get into this? So?
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm from Jordan's in the Middle East, UM,
Speaker 1: and I grew up in the uae Um Dubai Abu
Speaker 1: Dhabi area and where I grew up, the Internet was
Speaker 1: fully censored UM. And in order for me to sort
Speaker 1: of things that I wasn't supposed to see as a kid,
Speaker 1: I had to learn how to you know, bypass the
Speaker 1: Internet proxy at that point in time. So you were
Speaker 1: a baby hacker. So that's how I got into security, right, okay,
Speaker 1: baby hacker. Thank you so much for doing this, Abe,
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it, and thank you for all the
Speaker 1: work you do to you know, help keep it safe
Speaker 1: for all of us. Thank you. And you know, my
Speaker 1: students did the hard work, you know, I just was
Speaker 1: there to support them. And it's time for a quick break.
Speaker 1: But wait, when we come back, the founder of common
Speaker 1: Sense Media tells us what his organization is doing to
Speaker 1: help us protect our children. Welcome back to go ask allie.
Speaker 1: My next guest is Jim Styre, the founder and CEO
Speaker 1: of Common Sense Media, a nonprofit that provides ratings and
Speaker 1: recommendations of safe media for kids. Styre describes a group
Speaker 1: as nutritional labeling of media. It also focuses on the
Speaker 1: effects media and technology have on young users and advocates
Speaker 1: for kids privacy protections online. On top of this, Styre
Speaker 1: is an award winning professor at Stanford University, where he
Speaker 1: also attended college in law school. And I met him
Speaker 1: when I was twelve, So Jim sire, besides being the
Speaker 1: founder and head of common Sense Media, we should probably
Speaker 1: disclose that, in fact, you were my camp counselor at
Speaker 1: a very young age. You were very very cool camp counselor.
Speaker 1: You wore like pooka beads and you're always in bare feet,
Speaker 1: and your hair was longer. And look at you now,
Speaker 1: look at you now. I love that. I love that.
Speaker 1: You know that I still think of you as Dabber.
Speaker 1: That was your nickname when you were twelve years old. Yes,
Speaker 1: it was. And uh, you are one of my all
Speaker 1: time favorite campers. Said that means a lot to me.
Speaker 1: Thank you. That is totally true. So, first of all,
Speaker 1: you are the founder of common Sense Media, and as
Speaker 1: a mom who has always been concerned about content, I'd
Speaker 1: like to thank you. Um, how would you best describe
Speaker 1: common Sense Media? I would describe us as the biggest
Speaker 1: child advocacy group in the United States and also the
Speaker 1: biggest media and tech advocacy group in the world. And
Speaker 1: I think most of your listeners in our audience knows
Speaker 1: us because we rate and review every movie, TV, video
Speaker 1: game website we have about a hundred and fifty million
Speaker 1: unique users and also we have a curriculum on digital
Speaker 1: literacy and citizenship. That's in a hundred and ten thousand
Speaker 1: schools in the United States around the world. So we
Speaker 1: created that whole field of the safe, ethical, responsible use
Speaker 1: of cell phones and the Internet and Instagram, Snapchat, that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. So it's a big nonprofit. How did
Speaker 1: you jump into this? This is obviously something you're very about.
Speaker 1: I graduated from Exeter, the fancy private school up in
Speaker 1: New Hampshire, and I spent a year teaching in Harlem
Speaker 1: in the South Bronx with my mom before I went
Speaker 1: to college. And that was right before I became a
Speaker 1: camp counselor. And so when you knew me when I
Speaker 1: was eighteen years old, I already knew that I wanted
Speaker 1: to work with kids, and I knew that I didn't
Speaker 1: just want to work with Upper East Side kids, but
Speaker 1: but I wanted to work with kids who lived in Harlem,
Speaker 1: the South Bronx, East Oakland, the toughest areas in the
Speaker 1: United States. And that's really been my career. So I
Speaker 1: went to Stanford, I taught again in the worst schools
Speaker 1: in New York City for a couple of years, and
Speaker 1: I went back to law school and became a civil
Speaker 1: rights layer. And the reason I started Common Sense Media
Speaker 1: was there was no major child advocacy group in the
Speaker 1: United States that had a constituency, which is really parents
Speaker 1: who have to advocate for children because kids don't vote
Speaker 1: and they don't have political power. And the reason I
Speaker 1: started Common Sense was to get people to join the
Speaker 1: organization and understand that that both media and tech media.
Speaker 1: At that point it was mostly movies, TV, video games,
Speaker 1: We're having an incredible impact on kids lives, but also
Speaker 1: that you needed to be part of an organization that
Speaker 1: advocated for children. I did not know into the thousand
Speaker 1: and three that that rating and review platform would be
Speaker 1: so successful so that moms like you would use it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a big need. We can't we can't
Speaker 1: as parents. I knew that I have four kids. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you have four kids. You can't be aware of what
Speaker 1: movie or what game or what you know new app.
Speaker 1: You can't control it let alone you know know if
Speaker 1: there's going to be nude scenes or swearing or violence.
Speaker 1: And so it was a huge need in our culture.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate. And what happened was you could tell
Speaker 1: right from the beginning once we had those movie and
Speaker 1: TV ratings. There was nothing like it at the time,
Speaker 1: and people just flocked to it. And then what happened
Speaker 1: was a few years in this happened the iPhone and
Speaker 1: Facebook and install Graham and Snapchat, and the truth was
Speaker 1: kids went from watching movie and TV shows to being
Speaker 1: glued to their screens. And we were there and we
Speaker 1: were by far the biggest organization in the country, and
Speaker 1: we realized, oh my gosh, what we really have to
Speaker 1: do is look at the impact of technology and cell
Speaker 1: phones and social media on kids and the rest is history.
Speaker 1: And by the way, and I want to do a
Speaker 1: deep this is the area I want to do a
Speaker 1: deep dive into because um, I mean, of course, we
Speaker 1: didn't grow up with social media or cell phones, so
Speaker 1: there's no This is like the wild West for us
Speaker 1: parents that didn't grow up with it. And even though
Speaker 1: I have older girls, I feel like the conversations with
Speaker 1: parents all the time is when do I give my
Speaker 1: kid a phone? When do I allow them to do this?
Speaker 1: Because we have no idea. And you know, I do
Speaker 1: this work with the Child Mind Institute because I have
Speaker 1: very very strong feelings about technology and how it's sexualized.
Speaker 1: This whole generation of girls. And I feel like what
Speaker 1: people don't talk about is there's a whole new component
Speaker 1: to parenting, you know. I feel like I've spent a
Speaker 1: majority of my lecture series with my children talking about tech.
Speaker 1: I totally get that. And I went to Silicon Valley
Speaker 1: with the Child Mine Institute and there were all a
Speaker 1: lot of people from Google and Facebook and everything there.
Speaker 1: We had this big conversation, and then afterwards many of
Speaker 1: them came up to me and whispered to me, Oh, yeah, listen,
Speaker 1: it's far worse than you think. I won't let my
Speaker 1: kids go. And I'm like, well, wait a minute, come on,
Speaker 1: you hypocrites. You mean you're making billions of dollars working
Speaker 1: for these companies and yet you know how bad it
Speaker 1: is for our children. You're absolutely right, Alan, and every
Speaker 1: parent deals with that today and they need basic, simple advice.
Speaker 1: Um and I will tell you we also have big
Speaker 1: political leverage over the tech companies. Referring to so and
Speaker 1: so for example, you mentioned Google, So Sundar he's the
Speaker 1: CEO of Google. He's actually a good guy, way better
Speaker 1: than the predecessors, I would tell you on these issues.
Speaker 1: He cares about it a lot, and Susan Wajetski, who
Speaker 1: runs YouTube We work with two now. By the way,
Speaker 1: we criticize them when they don't do good stuff for kids,
Speaker 1: but we also work with them and I agree they
Speaker 1: now all understand in the big Silicon Valley companies as
Speaker 1: parents a the incredible impact that their platforms are having
Speaker 1: on kids. Be most of them, with the exception of
Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg, love common sense media. And the reason Mark
Speaker 1: doesn't this because we're so critical of Facebook and Instagram
Speaker 1: and have been for so long. Um, but this is
Speaker 1: the seven reality for every parent, and we try to
Speaker 1: make it simple easy, you know, and and you know,
Speaker 1: we have several hundred staff here who all they do
Speaker 1: is try to educate parents in the broader public about
Speaker 1: the impact of media and technology on kids, what we
Speaker 1: can do about it, and then we try to pass
Speaker 1: big laws around privacy and holding the social media platforms
Speaker 1: accountable for the misinformation and disinformation. We're doing a study
Speaker 1: on porn and sexting. As a mom, I guarantee you
Speaker 1: you will be interested because most parents out don't know
Speaker 1: their kids are exposed to stuff at ridiculously young ages. Now, yes,
Speaker 1: so I mean, you know, a little seven year old
Speaker 1: boy can just google titties and he can go to
Speaker 1: the dark web in a matter of minutes. Correct, And
Speaker 1: they're not supposed to be on YouTube or TikTok, but
Speaker 1: they are. I mean that's where kids live today, right,
Speaker 1: It's primarily on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, Snapchat, probably in that order.
Speaker 1: And the problem is these are all driven by algorithms,
Speaker 1: and what happens is they also maximize the most sensational stuff.
Speaker 1: That's how you engage people. Violence, sex, and so little
Speaker 1: kids can go down the rabbit hole very quickly on
Speaker 1: these platforms. It must be such a battle for you
Speaker 1: because there are so many billions of dollars made in
Speaker 1: this arena, like you know, sex and violent cells. But
Speaker 1: we're pretty powerful. I mean, you'd be surprised, a honestly.
Speaker 1: I mean this we've been a almost all the executives
Speaker 1: use our stuff. You said you went out there for
Speaker 1: the Child Mine Institute, and by the way, we work
Speaker 1: with them on kids and mental health issues a lot um.
Speaker 1: But the guys who run most of the companies and
Speaker 1: the people at the levels below them are almost all
Speaker 1: common sense media consumers, and so we go to them.
Speaker 1: But we also regulate them. We passed all the big
Speaker 1: privacy laws here in the United States. We passed this year.
Speaker 1: We did in California over the opposition of certain tech companies,
Speaker 1: the Age Appropriate Design Code, which means that if you're
Speaker 1: building a new platform like a Snapchat or an Instagram,
Speaker 1: you have to think about the kids who are in
Speaker 1: your audience and build it for that. And you know,
Speaker 1: the Europe and the rest of the world are in
Speaker 1: certain cases farther ahead than the U S. The U
Speaker 1: S has done a terrible job of regulating the tech
Speaker 1: companies in my opinion, and only over the last few years,
Speaker 1: because the broader public totally agrees with the common sense
Speaker 1: perspective on this. Has everyone come to understand that the
Speaker 1: wild West, which is how you correctly described, has got
Speaker 1: a change. So we're entering an era now where young
Speaker 1: people themselves, including yours, have really come to understand how
Speaker 1: much their lives are being shaped by these devices in
Speaker 1: these platforms. So give me an example of something that
Speaker 1: you fought in one. I'll give you two good ones.
Speaker 1: Early early years of common sense media. Early years we
Speaker 1: went after the video game industry because they made really disgusting,
Speaker 1: ultra violent and sexually violent video games like the Grand
Speaker 1: Theft Auto series were postal, and so they were coining money.
Speaker 1: Video games, by the way, are a way bigger business
Speaker 1: than movies. I don't know if the public knows that,
Speaker 1: but those companies are way more valuable than movie companies are.
Speaker 1: And you know, boys in the US and around the
Speaker 1: world are addicted to video games in many cases. But
Speaker 1: before we came along, there were a ton of ultra violent,
Speaker 1: sexually violent video games that kids could buy at age ten.
Speaker 1: So we went after them and passed laws in Michigan,
Speaker 1: in Illinois, California and elsewhere the stopped the marketing and
Speaker 1: sales to miners of sexually violent also had a lot
Speaker 1: of racist stereotypes. I mean, black and brown people were
Speaker 1: always either prostitutes or drug dealers in the games. So
Speaker 1: we went after them and one and we filed all
Speaker 1: these laws. By the way, the case went up to
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court on First Amendment ground, and it's like
Speaker 1: six years later we lost, but it didn't matter because
Speaker 1: by then the video game industry cleaned up its act
Speaker 1: on a lot of this stuff and stopped marketing and
Speaker 1: selling him to get So that's a big example where
Speaker 1: we took on a huge industry, and one, I would say,
Speaker 1: the other biggest one is look, I read a book
Speaker 1: inn called Talking Back to Facebook, which really piste off
Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg and Cheryl Sandberg, and they even they wrote
Speaker 1: me threatening letters saying we're going to block the publication
Speaker 1: of it. And I said, how you know, I'm a
Speaker 1: First Amendment law professor at Stanford. You're not gonna block
Speaker 1: the publication in my book. But um, and it exposed
Speaker 1: them were what they did around girls body image and
Speaker 1: all the errative, performative stuff that kids do on these platforms.
Speaker 1: And in those days, Facebook was a platform that kids used.
Speaker 1: But what happened there was I wrote a whole chapter
Speaker 1: about privacy. Privacy is a fundamental right. But if you
Speaker 1: think back a decade ago, Ali, my own children told
Speaker 1: me Dad, no one cares about privacy. Privacy is passe,
Speaker 1: and people like Mark Zuckerberg and Eric Schmidt. Was that
Speaker 1: of Google in those days, they would go around telling
Speaker 1: the world no one cares about privacy, privacy is old
Speaker 1: fashioned stuff. Well that was ridiculous. It's also a fundamental
Speaker 1: right under the US Constitution, although with this Supreme Court,
Speaker 1: who knows. But having said that, what happened was we
Speaker 1: passed in the California Consumer Privacy Act, which is the
Speaker 1: law of the land in the United States, and it
Speaker 1: gave everybody in your audience in the United States rights
Speaker 1: as consumers to protect their own personal information, data and
Speaker 1: their kids. So we had a huge victory in that one.
Speaker 1: And what happened is we split the industry. So Microsoft
Speaker 1: an Apple came with us. Remember their business model is
Speaker 1: they make money by selling devices, not by hoovering up
Speaker 1: your personal information or your kids personal information. Whereas with Facebook,
Speaker 1: you are the product or your kids are the product.
Speaker 1: They're selling your private information to advertisers. That's their business model.
Speaker 1: It's also Google's business model, by the way, and it's
Speaker 1: why the leadership of those companies are so important in
Speaker 1: terms of where they're responsible or not. How much have
Speaker 1: you learned from your own kids about this? I mean
Speaker 1: really a ton, right, totally. I mean I'll say this
Speaker 1: when we first when I first started Common Sense Media,
Speaker 1: Let's see, Lily was about our oldest was about nine, right,
Speaker 1: So we have two boys and two girls. So I
Speaker 1: saw the body image issues really big with my daughters, right,
Speaker 1: and I could see them photos shopping their images I
Speaker 1: could see body image and eating disorder issues with them
Speaker 1: in their classmates. You have plenty of young people, even tweens,
Speaker 1: let alone teams, who are exp aariencing that. And it's
Speaker 1: because they're constantly exposed to social comparison. You know, they're
Speaker 1: growing up on these platforms where you're constantly trying to
Speaker 1: show your perfect which which only you are Alley, only
Speaker 1: you and I are only were the only two perfect
Speaker 1: people in and so. But when I wrote talking back
Speaker 1: to Facebook, it came out wrote it inven I could
Speaker 1: not believe how much kids self esteem, girls and boys
Speaker 1: was being shaped by these platforms, and how irresponsible the
Speaker 1: platforms were about it. Even though some of the people
Speaker 1: who random were parents. Part of the problem was the
Speaker 1: people who built all these platforms were twenty five years
Speaker 1: old and they didn't even think about what they're doing.
Speaker 1: They're just making money, right, and they're building products that
Speaker 1: were addictive, and they built all these features that would
Speaker 1: addict you to the platform. No, I mean I I've
Speaker 1: seen it, and I've talked a lot about, you know,
Speaker 1: particularly with because I have girls, how it affected girls
Speaker 1: eating disorders, but also how many likes you got was
Speaker 1: you know, affected your self esteem or I remember one
Speaker 1: boy on one of my daughter's um instagrams, which by
Speaker 1: the way, are private, and I said, they will be
Speaker 1: private and your till your twenty one. UM. One of
Speaker 1: the boys was like, you'd be hot if you had teds.
Speaker 1: You know, things like that that I'm like, that get
Speaker 1: in their heads and I'm like, who is this kid?
Speaker 1: I'm calling the mother and they say, mom, no please.
Speaker 1: But then they would see, you know, girls just a
Speaker 1: couple of years older than them, you know, in bikinis
Speaker 1: with their thumb in their mouth and all this stuff.
Speaker 1: And I really I spent hours saying to my kids,
Speaker 1: this is a girl that has a whole she's trying
Speaker 1: to fill. This is not something to emulate. Please don't
Speaker 1: think that this is your currency. And it's exhausting and
Speaker 1: it's you know, right now, it's completely out of control.
Speaker 1: I can't. I mean, I look at Instagram and I
Speaker 1: just go, oh my god. I agree. Yes, and it's
Speaker 1: time for a short break. Welcome back to go ask Alli. Okay,
Speaker 1: but here's what I want to talk to you about. Two.
Speaker 1: What are you doing about the metaverse? A lot? Okay? Good,
Speaker 1: tell me because if that terrifies me. Okay, so we're
Speaker 1: coming out with a report, so it should be terrifying
Speaker 1: partly because the leading company in the spaces Facebook, and
Speaker 1: they're the least responsible of all the companies. I would
Speaker 1: never trust my kids to that company, right and they're
Speaker 1: the biggest player in the metaverse. So we're about to
Speaker 1: come out with the report. It's going to show you
Speaker 1: that it's a completely wild wild West scenario and that
Speaker 1: they're hoovering up your kids data. So if you think
Speaker 1: online data or on Instagram or or YouTube, you're getting
Speaker 1: data right in the metaverse. They get all your facial characteristics,
Speaker 1: they get all of the data about the way you
Speaker 1: behave And there's not a single company in that space
Speaker 1: right now that's doing it in a way that's sensitive
Speaker 1: to kids and teens. I would not, as a parent
Speaker 1: right now, let my kids room in the in the
Speaker 1: metaverse nowhere, I tell me why to me the scary
Speaker 1: stuff because the companies don't have protections, they don't have
Speaker 1: privacy protections. And also you can get into porn, You
Speaker 1: can get into a lot of stuff you shouldn't be
Speaker 1: in as an as an eighteen year old, let one
Speaker 1: as an eleven or twelve year old, which is who
Speaker 1: we're buying some of these headsets, and it's a completely
Speaker 1: unregulated environment. The metaverse should scare you, but what are
Speaker 1: you scared about? Tell me, like porn, it's porn, but
Speaker 1: three D porn that they're participating in exactly. And the
Speaker 1: thing is this, if you actually look at new platforms.
Speaker 1: Steve Kate is the founder of a o L would
Speaker 1: tell you this when when new platforms emerge, the way
Speaker 1: you really grow an audience is usually with bad stuff
Speaker 1: at the beginning, right before it becomes universally bodular. So
Speaker 1: aile All in the early days had a huge porn audience.
Speaker 1: So if you really look at how how those platforms,
Speaker 1: social media platforms work, it's the sensational stuff that creates engagement.
Speaker 1: So it's violence, sex, and anger. So that's a really
Speaker 1: the last one is a really important issue. Hate an
Speaker 1: anchor appeal to people. Right, they stay on there and
Speaker 1: then they get in big, you know, virtual arguments with
Speaker 1: each other, and kids are susceptible to that. They're younger, right,
Speaker 1: they get drawn in. And also there's a massive amount
Speaker 1: of misinformation and disinformation on these platforms, which we've been
Speaker 1: very critical of them for we created with the Anti
Speaker 1: Defamation League and the Double A CP a campaign called
Speaker 1: stop Haide for Profit a couple of years that led
Speaker 1: to an advertising boycott of Facebook. But in there are
Speaker 1: a lot of ways as a parent that you really
Speaker 1: need to be aware of what your kids can be
Speaker 1: exposed to. Is there any worry about like spending too
Speaker 1: much time in the metaverse and not in one's real life.
Speaker 1: I think so, But I think that's true with any
Speaker 1: screen honestly. I mean, if you're in the metaverse for
Speaker 1: three hours, that means you're three hours you're not out
Speaker 1: in Central Park, or you're not out playing outside, or
Speaker 1: you're not you know, out with your friends. You're just
Speaker 1: zoning out in a virtual world. Me that that was
Speaker 1: one of the things about the pandemic is it was
Speaker 1: so hard on kids and some of the mental health
Speaker 1: issues that that we're already there, but they were exacerbated
Speaker 1: by the pandemic because kids sat in front of screens.
Speaker 1: Our youngest kid was in high school, and you know,
Speaker 1: he would sit in his bedroom right and go to school,
Speaker 1: and I was worried about him being depressed because you're
Speaker 1: in front of the screen all day and the big
Speaker 1: ramifications by the way for lower income kids, because the
Speaker 1: other part of what happened in the pandemic is a
Speaker 1: lot of kids just didn't go didn't go to school.
Speaker 1: If you're in a single parent home where your parent
Speaker 1: is working full time and you have to leave your
Speaker 1: kids at home and unsupervised, you know, to go to school,
Speaker 1: a lot of kids just sort of dropped out and
Speaker 1: the schools weren't able to follow through. So we're going
Speaker 1: to be living with the consequences of the pandemic on
Speaker 1: young people for a while. Have you found with tech
Speaker 1: um the suicide rates have gone higher with with teens
Speaker 1: in terms of isolation, And so here's what I would
Speaker 1: tell you. First of all, it's not a pure causal relationship.
Speaker 1: I mean one, we're pretty careful. I mean again wearing
Speaker 1: my Stanford professor hat um. You have to be careful
Speaker 1: about just like blaming it all on social media, right
Speaker 1: or tech And it's simple to do, but it's complex.
Speaker 1: The data is clear that kids who are already anxious,
Speaker 1: or have other minor issues of depression or anxiety or
Speaker 1: the normal insecurities of that all adolescents have, they can
Speaker 1: be exacerbated by their online experiences and their social media experiences.
Speaker 1: So there are clear major mental health implications of that.
Speaker 1: And this was really exacerbated during the pandemic because kids
Speaker 1: are just living their lives online. All the screen time
Speaker 1: rules went out the window during the pandemic, partly because
Speaker 1: you were going to school for a while on this
Speaker 1: on on online. I mean, weren't there aspects of it
Speaker 1: that helped kids um that they were able to talk
Speaker 1: to friends and not feel so isolated, that there was
Speaker 1: some form of socialization. Yes, so platforms can do good
Speaker 1: stuff too, right. It can actually connect you to mental
Speaker 1: health resources, online counseling, a lot of stuff I don't
Speaker 1: think people realized was there until the pandemic. So it's
Speaker 1: not a simplistic that it's all caused by being you know, online.
Speaker 1: But I will tell you that about half of all
Speaker 1: American teenagers experienced some form of depression during the pandemic.
Speaker 1: That's unbelievable, right, And we have an and mental health
Speaker 1: epidemic right now. So Common Sense Media and Child Mind Institute,
Speaker 1: who we partner with a fair amount, are probably the
Speaker 1: leading organizations around this. We're about to do a big
Speaker 1: campaign with the Surgeon General of the United States of
Speaker 1: a Murphy who's fantastic on these issues and who wrote
Speaker 1: a book about isolation and loneliness. See, that's another issue
Speaker 1: for for all adults. But kits is that that social
Speaker 1: platforms and Internet platforms can allow you to isolate and
Speaker 1: just sort of retreat into your own little world. And
Speaker 1: and that's really dangerous for young people. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I can feel it myself. I you know, I I
Speaker 1: can monitor how I feel when I go on Instagram
Speaker 1: and stuff, and I know how much time I spend
Speaker 1: on screen. Is that I could be you know, out
Speaker 1: walking the dog or doing other things. So and it's
Speaker 1: it's you know, ten times that for the kids or more.
Speaker 1: And it's also compulsive and addictive, and you constantly looking
Speaker 1: at your phone. You're constantly checking your messages. But if
Speaker 1: you talk to kids about it, they know that more
Speaker 1: than we realized, and they're they're concerned about it. But
Speaker 1: they also have issues that are very interesting that I've
Speaker 1: learned because kids view it differently than we do. So
Speaker 1: for example, um, one of the reasons why they so
Speaker 1: constantly check their phones is they want to be there
Speaker 1: for their friends and they feel they need to respond
Speaker 1: to their friends when their friends and I'm like, why
Speaker 1: who cares? But they actually feel pressured to do that. Um.
Speaker 1: They also feel pressured to perform sometimes politically, as as
Speaker 1: young people have become more politically aware during the insanity
Speaker 1: years of the Trump they have also now been you know,
Speaker 1: called on activism online. Right, teenagers feel that they should
Speaker 1: respond to issues like racism and and other social problems online.
Speaker 1: So it's there's a lot out of pressures they feel
Speaker 1: that we don't always understand. So I was my concern
Speaker 1: was I was worried that these younger generations were losing
Speaker 1: their sense of empathy. But based on what you just said,
Speaker 1: that's maybe not true. So maybe there is empathy more
Speaker 1: than I thought. And it's it's a really important point, Ali,
Speaker 1: because empathy is so basic to human relationships and too
Speaker 1: friendships and to family and everything. And the truth is
Speaker 1: it's not black and white. Meaning the platforms do enable
Speaker 1: you if you really read what kids say. It's really important.
Speaker 1: And by the way, this is what my kids tell
Speaker 1: me all the time, Dad, you don't get who we
Speaker 1: really are. And there's some truth to that because we
Speaker 1: did not grow up with this, right, and they are
Speaker 1: natives they only know this experience. They have no other
Speaker 1: childhood or adolescence without these platforms, and it's it's it's
Speaker 1: more nuanced and empathy. Can they can actually communicate online
Speaker 1: and ways we do not write, We don't use the
Speaker 1: platforms the way they use the platforms. Um before we go,
Speaker 1: tell me what you're hoping for with common sense media
Speaker 1: in the next let's say five years, what are what
Speaker 1: are the sort of the dream the dream ideas. I
Speaker 1: would say, number one, you permanently close the digital divide
Speaker 1: so that everybody in the United States has access to broadband,
Speaker 1: because whether you like it or not, you need it
Speaker 1: to go to for school, you need it for work,
Speaker 1: you need to do your homework. So currently close the
Speaker 1: digital divide. The money's there. We're doing a huge campaign
Speaker 1: on that for the next couple of years. I would
Speaker 1: say another big dream is that we really address the
Speaker 1: youth mental health crisis in the United States and adult
Speaker 1: mental health crisis. But that we really do that, and
Speaker 1: that we make the resources available to everybody who needs
Speaker 1: it in the suicide prevention area, but also for people
Speaker 1: who have significant but not necessarily rising at the level
Speaker 1: of suicide or you know, massive self harm, but that
Speaker 1: we really really take this mental health crisis seriously. I
Speaker 1: think third, that we work with the companies and regulate them,
Speaker 1: the big tech platforms and social media platforms, so that
Speaker 1: they're way more responsible, both in terms of how they
Speaker 1: shaped the lives of kids and families, but also about
Speaker 1: how they've screwed up our elections. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: our democracy is that its most fragile state in my lifetime,
Speaker 1: actually since the Civil War. And I will tell you,
Speaker 1: I think that the media platforms are a big part
Speaker 1: of the problem because they've spread misinformation, disinformation. It's where
Speaker 1: all the jam six stuff was was formed online, and
Speaker 1: people are manipulating these platforms in really really devious ways.
Speaker 1: That's true here in the US, but it's really true
Speaker 1: globally as well. Okay, see you at the Camp reunion.
Speaker 1: That would be so fun. I know, I can't thank
Speaker 1: you enough for everything you do with common Sense Media
Speaker 1: really go to I mean, I want your whole audience
Speaker 1: to become members of Common Sense, because guys, this is
Speaker 1: your kid's life. But it's also the way to advocate
Speaker 1: for children. It's also the way to advocate for democracy.
Speaker 1: It's like thirty bucks a year and the truth is
Speaker 1: this is the reality our kids are growing up in
Speaker 1: and that we're living in. So the more we do,
Speaker 1: the better. All that's right. Thank you, Jim, Thank you
Speaker 1: for listening to Go ask Alli. As always, please check
Speaker 1: out our show notes for other great info and links.
Speaker 1: Be sure to subscribe, rate and review Go ask Alli
Speaker 1: and follow me on Instagram at the real Ali Wentworth. Now.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to ask me a question or suggest
Speaker 1: a guest or a topic to dig into, I'd love
Speaker 1: to hear from you, and there's a bunch of ways
Speaker 1: you can do it. You can call or text me
Speaker 1: at three to three four six three six, or you
Speaker 1: can email a voice memo right from your phone to
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Speaker 1: you leave a question, you just might hear it. I'm
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