1 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the thing, 2 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policymakers, and performers, to 3 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: hear their stories. What inspires their creations, what decisions change 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: their careers, what relationships influenced their work. If you've ever 5 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: picked up an issue of The New Yorker, chances are 6 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: you've seen the work of cartoonist Ro's Chaste. Her characters 7 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: appear to be hastily drawn in colored pencils by a 8 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: clever child while talking on the phone, But on closer examination, 9 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 1: you recognize the complex emotions that her drawings contain. Though 10 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: their faces are made up of only a few squiggles. 11 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: You spot a look of resentment in the mother, resignation 12 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: in the father, entitlement in the sun, and defiance in 13 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: the daughter. Chaste gives life to the objects around the 14 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: family as well. She trains her eye on what the 15 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,479 Speaker 1: rest of us don't see, archiving the detritus real or imagined, 16 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,680 Speaker 1: that we lead behind in our wake. You could call 17 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: her an anthropologist of human emotions, but Ros's Chaste prefers 18 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: to keep our title simple. I guess a cartoonist. Yeah, cartoonist, 19 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: And how long have you been doing the pieces for 20 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: the New Yorker since when I started in for the 21 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: New Yorker. For the New Yorker, yeah, and did you 22 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: know how does that work? Did you submit and submit 23 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: for eons and eons and finally got accepted or no. 24 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: I had a very strange experience when I got out 25 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: of art school. I was starting to take a portfolio 26 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: around and I was doing cartoons for various places. I 27 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: actually thought I would wind up working for the Village Voice. 28 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: That was sort of my goal, because that's where I 29 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: pictured myself. You know, Jules Feiffer did cartoons for the 30 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: Village Voice, and I thought, well, if I work really 31 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: hard and if I'm really lucky, and if there's a 32 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: receptive editor, that's where I'll be. My parents subscribed The 33 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: New Yorker, and so at some point I thought, well, 34 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: I might as well try them. But I really did 35 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: not think that that was where my cartoons would be because, 36 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 1: especially in my cartoons were not what they had in 37 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: the magazine, and uh, but I thought, uh, how would 38 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 1: you describe what was in the magazine? And they were 39 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: mostly single panel cartoons with a gagline underneath a lot 40 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: of them were funny. I liked a lot of the 41 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: art in them. I loved, you know, Charles Adams and 42 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: Ed Coren, Jack Ziegler, there were a lot of Gay 43 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 1: Wilson when he appeared. There were a lot of cartoons 44 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: that I liked. But I just did not see my 45 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: stuff in there. I guess because of the single panel thing, 46 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: and especially back then, my stuff was lots of panels, 47 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: and they were really really tiny. The boxes were about 48 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,679 Speaker 1: postage stamp sized, and in fact, the editor of The 49 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: New Yorker told me that I had to start making 50 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: them bigger because um, they were just very hard to see. 51 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: But I think, in this sort of logical but sort 52 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: of slightly in main way, I thought, if I just 53 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: draw really small, like, nobody will get really angry with me. 54 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: So anyway, one time, and it was in April of 55 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: seventy eight, I dropped off this portfolio of cartoons to 56 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: The New Yorker. I had called them up and found 57 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: out when they saw stuff over the transome. I didn't 58 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: know anybody there. I didn't know computers the internet paper right, 59 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: and I didn't know how many cartoons. Was the editor 60 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 1: then William Shaun and uh Lee Lawrence was the cartoon 61 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: the art editor. There was no cartoon editor. He was 62 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: in charge of all the art, the covers, the inside. 63 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: You know, there wasn't that much art. There was the cartoons, 64 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: there was the covers. They were spot drawings, and that 65 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: was pretty much it. When I came back next week 66 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,839 Speaker 1: to pick them up. I had about sixty cartoons in there. 67 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: I really did not know what I was doing. There 68 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: was a note from him to come back and see him. 69 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: Turned out i'd sold a cartoon and he told me 70 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: to come back every week. So that's kind of what 71 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: I've been doing. Would you would say that you're in 72 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: the if they do they do double issues, so they 73 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: probably put out what about fifty issues or forty eight 74 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: issues a year, something like that, And you'd say that 75 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: you appear in the magazine how often per year? It 76 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: goes on streaks? I mean it's uh, they'll take whatever 77 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: you've got. No, no, I mean it's weird stuff you 78 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: send them, no tons because I mean they reject at 79 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: least of the stuff you submit. Yes, the way, there's 80 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe forty cartoonists on staff, and we 81 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: all submit a group of cartoons. Every week. I send 82 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: in usually six to eight cartoons, and um, sometimes they 83 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: take one, sometimes they don't take any. Every blue moon 84 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: they take too. But the overwhelming majority of what I 85 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: turned in is rejected. Where does that go? It goes 86 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: on top of my file cabinet with its other reject brethren, 87 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: the graveyard, Graveyard chest imagination. Yeah, but you know, then 88 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: I publish somewhere else. I used to do sonics cartoons 89 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: for a Scientific American UM and read book. Uh, you 90 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: don't put them online on a website. That is ross 91 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: chess rejected cartoons, man, I so they don't go on 92 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: a website website, Okay, Now, Crumbler and UM, so much trouble, 93 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: so much trouble, and they're just bad anyway, And anyway, 94 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: sometimes I redraw them and and I reworked them. And 95 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: you know, because if I'm really stubborn about a joke, 96 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: if I think this could be a good joke, if 97 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: I just need to make it better, you know. So 98 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: where did you go to art school? I went to 99 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 1: Rhode Island School of Design. You went to Rid, Right, 100 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 1: What did you study there? You study art? And I 101 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: started out. I started out in graphic design because I 102 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: thought I would be practical, and I hated it. It 103 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: was just, you know, a lot of it's like this 104 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: was about learning to be neat and measure exactly, and uh, 105 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: I really was not good at that. I had been 106 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: cartooning since you were a child. Yeah, you started when 107 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 1: you were young. I started when I was really little. 108 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of it had to do 109 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: with that I was an only child and my parents 110 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: were a lot older, and there was one way to 111 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: kind of keep me entertain after Known'm kidding, ha ha. 112 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 1: And the chasti and psychological condition was that in the 113 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: early drawings as well. Oh, I think ross chest as 114 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 1: a child, what's the point help me going to the library? 115 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 1: I like the library. What's the point of going to 116 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: the movies? We have snacks at home. No. I think 117 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: when I was a kid, I drew everything. I mean 118 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: I like to draw people. I liked, you know, funny 119 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: remarks and conversations and yeah, you know, I just like 120 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: to draw. And then when you left Wristee, what did 121 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: you do before you started? I'm not coming who. You 122 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: became with the New Yorker and so you graduated risdy 123 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: Win in so it was only a year before you 124 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: submitted to Sean. Yeah, yeah, so it was actually less 125 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: the other work you do as an artist during that 126 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: period of time. I mean, do you wind up? Is 127 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: this the beginning of you making your living as a 128 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: cartoonist right away? Um? I started out actually doing illustrations. 129 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: They were terrible. I was doing cartoons on my own, 130 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: but I never thought that I would be able to 131 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: make a living at first as a cartoonist. You know, 132 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: I was living in my parents apartment and that was enough, 133 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: and I sort of made up a weird illustration style 134 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: that was like a pastiche of all the popular styles 135 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: of the day, and they were pretty terrible. I did 136 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: not get much work, and at some point I just thought, 137 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: you know what, I'm just going to try submitting the 138 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: cartoons because this is really what I like to do, 139 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: and at least if nobody takes them, then i'll know that, 140 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: you know, I tried. So I don't know if I 141 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: even thought it out that far, or whether it was 142 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: really that the illustrations weren't getting any work at all. 143 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: And when I started doing the cartoons, that's when I 144 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: started getting work. I started selling to do the illustrations 145 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: look like were they in? They're not in the style? 146 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: When when you're when you're an artist and you do illustrations, 147 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: it's it's it's like you draw birds like Audubon, you 148 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: don't draw birds like Ross Chest draws cartoons and people. 149 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: They're not squiggly lines of people with their hands up 150 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: around their mouths. They were just like these fake kind 151 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: of Milton Glazer mixed with a little weird abstract e 152 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: kind of junk. Because at Rizzy, I was taught like, 153 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: you don't want to be too tight when you draw, 154 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: so there was like a kind of like fake loose 155 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 1: kind of thing tossed off. Well they were not tossed off. 156 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: They were fake loose, you know. They were like to 157 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: look like they were just horrible, and I didn't like 158 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: doing them. I mean, that was the worst part. It 159 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: was just someone that taught you then, who helped you 160 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: that you remember, who was a great mentor of yours. 161 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: Um I was in high school. I went to the 162 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: Art Students League on week on. It was one Saturday 163 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: a month, and I had yeah, yeah, and that's I mean, 164 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: I could not say that I know anatomy my any 165 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: stretch of the imagination, but it's where I took a 166 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: lot of figure drawing and I loved the Art Students League, 167 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,719 Speaker 1: and I had an amazing teacher there named Andrew Lucash. 168 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: I like that a lot. When you start working with 169 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: for the New Yorker. How long does it go on 170 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 1: before you're making a living just doing that? Um, I 171 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: don't think I've ever I've always done other things illustrations, 172 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: um and tossed off kind of phone. Know. What happened 173 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: was once my style got known through the New Yorker, 174 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: then people would hire me because it was okay to 175 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: draw my style. And uh, I remember doing some illustration. 176 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: I think what was that magazine? It wasn't called I 177 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: can't remember. Maybe it was it have been missed, I 178 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: can't remember. Somebody's closet. It was just like I had 179 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: all these clothes and these arrows with words like sick, yuck, 180 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: throw out, you know, and it was like I couldn't 181 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: incorporate the jokes and the writing into the illustrations. And 182 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: so you know, in the years after that, after my 183 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: cartoon started appearing in New Yorker, I was able to 184 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: get illustration work, but they knew what I did. I mean, 185 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: every once in a while, something weird would happen, like, UM, 186 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: a magazine would say. I think it was seventeen magazine. 187 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: I I illustrated a booklet for teenagers about I don't 188 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: even manners or something, and they said, could you make 189 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: your people look more contemporary? And I thought, they don't 190 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: look contemporary? You know. I just thought, well, this is 191 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: how I draw contemporary people, you know, I mean, what 192 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 1: are they supposed to wear a different sort of hair 193 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: band or something. I just I don't know. It's just like, 194 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: no matter what I put on my characters, they look 195 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: how they look. They said, okay, and then we went 196 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: on from there. Sean was the editor when your first 197 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: commit was got Leeb. Next after that it was Sean Gottlieb, 198 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: Tina and David. How does that change the perception of 199 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: your work? Editor to editor and then art director and 200 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: cartoon editor and on and on. Have you had a 201 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: different reception for your work over the last several years? Um? 202 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: I was very panicky when Tina Brown took over, because 203 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: I think several people were because I had the impression 204 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: that she liked only topical stuff. And I think that 205 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 1: that a lot of my cartoons during that time became 206 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: more topical. But the thing with very topical cartoons is 207 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: you know, you can't really include them in a collection. 208 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: I mean, who really cares about Monica Lewinsky joke right now? 209 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: So you know, I felt like if I could do 210 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: them in a way that was still my stuff, it 211 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: was all right. But um, that were your fears assuaged? 212 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 1: Once she got there, that she get your it was 213 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: all right, it was okay. But I think there is 214 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: some differences. I think so, I think so, um, and 215 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: who knows how much of it was in my own, 216 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: you know projection. Another thing I thought about was just 217 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: pure writing. Have you done a lot of writing and 218 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: do you do writing aside from doing the cartooning, because 219 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: so much of what you do involves writing. In this 220 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,839 Speaker 1: book that you have about now is so beautifully written 221 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: in terms of the honesty and the well, thank you, 222 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: thanks um. I think that one thing I have always 223 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: loved about cartoons is that they have writing and they 224 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: have pictures. And it's not just like an illustration. In 225 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: the best cartoons, the best graphic novels graphic uh you know, storytelling, 226 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: The words and the pictures play off each other. The 227 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: illustration is not necessarily a literal illustration of the words 228 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: that you see on the page. It could be moving 229 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: the story forward or back, or could be like in 230 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: total contradiction to what's written. Um, there's some sort of 231 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: thing going on between the two of them. And what 232 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: I love is that I don't have to choose. Like 233 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: in this book, there are times where a picture served, 234 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: you know, best, to tell what I wanted to tell, 235 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: And there were parts where I really wanted it needed 236 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: to be all text. You know, the pictures would not 237 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: have helped, would have in fact attracted. And I do 238 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: like to write. I have written, Um, I've written for 239 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: The New Yorker, I've written a Talk of the Town piece, 240 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 1: I wrote shouts and murmurs. I've written an obituary um 241 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: for uh wonderful cartoonist Leo Collum. Um. I like to write. 242 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: I like to write mostly though, UM, I like cartoons. 243 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: You do, Yeah, Are you much of a television watcher? 244 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: Someone who's who's very funny and and humorist certainly applies 245 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: to you when your work, Like any good cartoonist. Um, 246 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: what kind of television do you watch? Oh? God, I 247 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: love so many of these, you know, repeating the series 248 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: that have been on. Oh my god, I watched yeah 249 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: Bench last night, I watched three episodes of broad Church, 250 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: British show. Um about a little kid who's murdered and 251 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 1: broad Church is the name of the town. Um, I've 252 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: watched that. I watched broad City, Girls, Madman, What's the 253 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: Wire of No? No, broad City though it was funny. 254 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: Not a sitcom watcher. No, I'm not much of a 255 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: sitcom watcher. Um, I watched sits. Know. When I was 256 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: a kid, I watched a ton of sitcotts, Bewitched, Green Acres, 257 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I was obsessed with Bewitched. Where's the Agnes 258 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: More ahead of today? Oh my god, I can still 259 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: hear the credits in my head. I watched Beverly Hillbilly's Island, 260 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: Gilligan's Island, totally yeah. I mean I still see a 261 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: lot of people in terms of Guilden's Island. I still 262 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: have dreams about Ginger. Oh my god, say, at least 263 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: is not like Gilligan weird tied up to a tree 264 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: in my dream Gilligan in this skipper, they're on the 265 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: other side of the island doing the laundry quote unquote 266 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: with I say, I say. And the last TV show 267 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: until the Sopranos came along that I watched with any 268 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: devotion was Mary Hartman. Mary Hartman, Yes, and I was 269 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: addicted to the weirdness of that show. When I was like, 270 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: I forget sixteen or see, I did sort of get 271 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: into the Mary Tyler Moore show. And there were a 272 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: couple of years when I first got out of college. 273 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: Maybe it was the first year I got out of 274 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: college where I was living in the apartment, living in 275 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: my first apartment. Actually it was when I got out 276 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: of college, when I still living at home for a 277 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: while and then I moved into my own apartment that 278 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: I didn't really have much of a social life, let's 279 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: put it that way. And working. I was working, and 280 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: I was working on my cartoons, and I was mostly 281 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: mostly pretty depressed. Big shock, because well I was living 282 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: at home and I just thought, this is still at 283 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: home with my parents in Brooklyn, and I thought this 284 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: is my life. I was twenty two, twenty two, and 285 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: I didn't know how to fill my time. I think 286 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: that was another thing that like, you know, it's it's 287 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: so different now with the Internet, but before it was 288 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: like there were these stretches. I mean, I was also 289 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: in love with this guy and it wasn't reciprocal. Um, 290 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: what do do he was a painter U school. He 291 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: was yeah, yeah, um yeah. But anyway, uh so it 292 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: was it was a very depressing time. And I used 293 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: to watch the Mary Charler Wore Show and also The 294 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: Odd Couple, and there were these things that sort of 295 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: like like I knew if I got to those shows, 296 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: I would like live through the day. It's hard to 297 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: sort of explain, but remember that those shows made me 298 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: feel more. Yeah, they would pay that they'd play that 299 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: opening and gone with the wind. I told someone I 300 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,159 Speaker 1: spent you're a real New Yorker. I spent six months 301 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 1: on the internet, surfing the carters and the baffles and 302 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: the warrens of YouTube to find the voice of the 303 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 1: man that was the voice of my childhood. Now, it's 304 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: interesting that you remember the voices. I don't remember that that. 305 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: I remember that Clapboard like really, well, which one do 306 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: you remember? That? Was the four thirty movie? No? That 307 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: was that? That was? I think that the Million Dollar 308 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: movie was the Clapboard was later one? Um, the four 309 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: thirty movie I think had a kind of grandfather clock 310 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: kind of I don't want I don't want to be 311 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,239 Speaker 1: taking you on in the music was do I think 312 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: I've got you here. I don't mean to be lecturing Roch, 313 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: but I'm going to tell you the clapboard and the 314 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: camera on the dolly was the four thirty movie. That 315 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: was the slate the Maybe I'm remembering something really long ago. 316 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: You have been breathing in a lot of chemicals there 317 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: in your cartooning studio, and your memory is failing you. 318 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: The one you're referring to as a famous piece called 319 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: syncopated clock, and that was the Late Show on CBS 320 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: and the Late Late Show on CBS. So the clapboard 321 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: was the ABC. But when did you realize that that 322 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: was a clapartelling this the clapboard in the Okay, sol See, 323 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: I didn't know. I thought it was like a black 324 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: thank you. I didn't know what it was until I 325 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: was much older. A clapboard. It looked like it looked 326 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: like a weird flashboard to me. You were depressed back then. 327 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: The painter wasn't around. You're looking with your parents and 328 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: crazy Ville. How old were you when you moved out 329 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: of the apartment, Uh, twenty three, So you're just there 330 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: for a year, just there for you about yes, yes, 331 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: And then you moved toward to Manhattan. Yes, moved to Manhattan, 332 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: a wonderful apartment on seventy third Street, loved one between 333 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: Amsterdam and Columbus area. It was wonderful. It was it was, 334 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: you know, kind of raddy back then. Not terrible, but 335 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: it was the wild wild West back Yeah, it was raddy. 336 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 1: You know, they were like linoleum stores in secondhand clothing stores. 337 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: Tinchers was still on Broadway, yes, And the prostitutes used 338 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: to wear like faux fur coats and approach you on Broadway. Yes. 339 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: And as you went up on Amsterdam Avenue, people in 340 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 1: the summer with like barbecue out of their cars. And 341 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: I remember that because the painter that I like lived 342 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: on two Street in Amsterdam. And whence you crossed like 343 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: seventy nine Street, you were just like, I don't even 344 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: know where I am. How old were you when you 345 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: met your husband? So this is again like a year 346 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: or two later when you met him, were at the 347 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: New Yorker. Well, you know you New Yorker people all 348 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: just commingle, yes, pretty much so much. Yeah, and only 349 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: another New Yorker staff member can understand just you know, 350 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: these are the people we know and really cross paths. 351 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: What did he do? Yeah, Bill. He's a writer, and 352 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: what does he right? Predominantly short humor, talking the town 353 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. Well, now's some reason why the 354 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: lights in here. Like, I'm surprised, and I'm coming into 355 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: this interview with you having read your cartoons and loved 356 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: your cartoons, and I am a great cavelling, cavetching, whining 357 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: bundle of insecurity myself. I am. I'm a ball of insecurity. 358 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: And for you, of all people, I've got all these 359 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 1: presumptions about you to ask about the power fluctuations in 360 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: an old apartment building. I'm just surprised, this is an 361 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: old apartment building to take up this carpet his linoleum there, Okay, okay, 362 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: I come completely Joseph's Temple of communication explanation. I just 363 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: wanted to make sure about you don't have some neurological disorder. 364 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: You don't have any neurological disorder as far as I know. 365 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: You know, it's but just you know, there's just things 366 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: going on, electrical things going on. Was trying to talk 367 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 1: to Charles Schultz is trying to talk to you. He's 368 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 1: born on my birthday. Actually, really, yes, what did you 369 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: think of that cartoon? Peanuts? When I was younger, I 370 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: liked it a lot. I still think it has some 371 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: fantastic archetypes, but you know, it's not completely my cup 372 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: of tea, but I like it. Charles Adams probably Jane Wilson, 373 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: Charles Adams sort of more odd. Tim Burton definitely definitely. 374 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: Chat said she loved Charles Adams work when she was 375 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: young because, quote, it made fun of stuff you weren't 376 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 1: supposed to make fun of. Unquote. It's clear she wasn't 377 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: your average kid growing up in Brooklyn in the fifties 378 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: and sixties. In her cartoon A Note on the Author, 379 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: Chaste drew her nine year old self reading the Big 380 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: Book of Horrible Rare Diseases. I'm Alec Baldwin, and here's 381 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: the thing. Take a listen to our archive more in 382 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 1: depth conversations with artists, policymakers, and performers like Lena Dunham. 383 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 1: Dunham and Chast both talk to me about their early years, 384 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: but Dunham's plans for her future were way off. Always 385 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: thought I would be like a weird gender and women 386 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: studies teacher who occasionally showed movies at film festivals and 387 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: hung out in my strange apartment that was stacked high 388 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: with books. Take a listen at Here's the Thing dot Org. 389 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 390 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: My guest today is Ra's Chast. Can We talk About 391 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: Something more Pleasant? Her graphic memoir about taking care of 392 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: her elderly parents in their final years, was nominated for 393 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: a National Book Award last year. Along with her drawings 394 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: that told the story of her parents, the book includes 395 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: actual photographs of the objects they left behind. While cleaning 396 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,239 Speaker 1: out her parents fridge, Chast found an invention of her 397 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: mother's from the sixties made from mismatched tupperware held together 398 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 1: with masking tape, called the cheese Tailor. Chast says anything 399 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: to do with death is funny, but the emotional honesty 400 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: of her book produced more than just laughs. The New 401 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: York Times called can We Talk as ambitious, raw and 402 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: personal as anything she has produced. Yeah. This is definitely 403 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: the most personal and how would you describe it? The 404 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: book is called can't We I'm sorry, Can't We talk 405 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: about Something more Pleasant? Which comes from my father. That's 406 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: something that he would say anytime a topic that was 407 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: a little dicey would come up. Because my mother loved 408 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: talking about like weird illnesses than friends of hers had, 409 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: Like you know, did you hear about Shirley She has 410 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: like blood coming out of her right ear, blood and puss, 411 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: and she was just sitting in the Chinese restrust. Actually 412 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: it was like it started at blood, then pus, then 413 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 1: it started shifting, then it was blood an enormous amen. 414 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 1: And then my father would just say, can't we talk 415 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: about so my mother? You and I are going to 416 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 1: go back and forth about our mother's and my family. 417 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: We we make fun of my mother because my mother 418 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 1: will not have six degrees of separation. She'll have a 419 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 1: hundred and six degrees of separation from someone and yet 420 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 1: feel the pain of someone she could never possibly meet. 421 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: Or No, she loved tragedy. She was addicted to tragedy. Yeah, 422 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: the drama thing, drama, melodrama. Tell me about the genesis 423 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: of this book, if you will. Well, I think in 424 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: my head I do sort of take notes on things. 425 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 1: There were a lot of cartoons in this book. Well, 426 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: I was telling you earlier about how every week I 427 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: submit around six or eight cartoons. So and then you 428 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: were asking me about the rejects on top with the 429 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 1: file cabinet. Some of these cartoons, like the one with 430 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: the oven mitt, there were things that I did when 431 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: I would go visit my parents, and I would have 432 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: like a sort of insane conversation with my mother about 433 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 1: that was you know this oven mit, which was uh, 434 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: I mean, who patches an oven mit? They cost like 435 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: four And this was before this was way before she 436 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: was you know, she was still grocery shopping, so I 437 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: know she could have bought an oven mit and it 438 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: was patched with a skirt that I had made in 439 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: seventh grade home economics class, and I could not understand 440 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: why she still had it, you know. But then you know, 441 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 1: as it became clear she they never threw anything away ever, ever, ever, ever, 442 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: They just kind of like shoved it farther back in 443 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: the closet. Um. And uh so, yes, they were kind 444 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: of hoarders and um, borderline hoarders, I think. I mean 445 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: they were not rats like scurrying. I mean I have 446 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: watched the Hoarders. They were, Yes, yes, they were were 447 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: you know, farm lee Cord hoarders. So some of the cartoons, 448 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: like the that the cheese dan Ish one, there's probably 449 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: ten or twenty in the book that I did, not 450 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 1: thinking in any way that they would become part of 451 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: a book, but that I did, you know, within a 452 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: couple of weeks of the incident happening, or the Theuigia 453 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: board one, you know where when my father was dying 454 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: and I my daughter was doing Wigia board with some 455 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 1: friends in her room, and you know, I barely was touching. 456 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 1: And I'm with my daughter and a couple of friends. 457 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: They're like sixteen years old, and the thing spells out, 458 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: you know, heaven beckons. I. Oh, I asked it, I 459 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: should say, I asked, Luigia board, is Grandpa going to 460 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: die soon? And my daughter was like, mom, that's so morbid. 461 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 1: But it was the first question that popped into my head. 462 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: So I asked it. And I was not touching the 463 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: plant chat you know, I was just like my hands 464 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: were like touching two adams worth because I was partly 465 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: curious to see, like where are these kids going to 466 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: move it? You know, and you know, so I wrote 467 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 1: that up. So so that's the genesis. But the genesis 468 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: from the book, I think it just sort of started 469 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: to fall together, probably like when you photographed the objects 470 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: in the house. There's that little piece in the book. 471 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: We have photographs of the pencil drawer, and these are 472 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: these wonderfully plane and simple things that there are snapshots 473 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 1: at all of us say that's that, this is how 474 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 1: we live. When you were doing that, were you saying 475 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: to yourself, I'm gonna put this down into a book 476 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: of some kind. Before that, I think that, well, I was. 477 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: I knew I was getting rid of almost everything in 478 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: the apartment, and I wanted memories of it. I think 479 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 1: that I thought it's the same way that when something 480 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: is interesting, I think somehow this might be useful, and 481 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: maybe in some very vague I was thinking about a book, 482 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: but I don't think I really thought about I wasn't 483 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: really thinking of this because I didn't even have a 484 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: title for it for the longest time, or how it 485 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: would be structured, or whether it could be a book. 486 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: I didn't even know whether it could really be a book, 487 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: or how I would use the photograph. So a lot 488 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: of it just kind of came together more later. So 489 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 1: for you, you didn't decide until when. When did you 490 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: sit there and go, I want to get this on paper. 491 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: This my feelings about my parents, I think probably, and 492 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: why somewhere between my father's death and my mother's death 493 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: somewhere in there. And why, I think because I didn't 494 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: want to forget, and I just I just knew that 495 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,479 Speaker 1: if I did not get it down, I would forget. 496 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: I would uh, I'd forget how they sounded, I'd forget. 497 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: It's an instinct all of us have to some degree, 498 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: I mean normal people. Yeah, I think so. I want 499 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: to chronicle that in some way. I definitely think so. 500 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: I think it's why we tell stories. I think it's 501 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: why we tell our friends, Oh my god, this is 502 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: what or why you know we don't because maybe we 503 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: don't want to remember. We videotape our children out within 504 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: an inch of their lives right right. What people take 505 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: self is because you don't want to forget, and you 506 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: know on some level that it's all just going to 507 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: become like, you know, just like what did I have 508 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: for dinner? Guess I have no idea. I don't remember. 509 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: You were closer to your dad than your mom, definitely, 510 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: both of your parents being older parents was one of 511 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: the things you credited with them leaving you alone to draw. Yeah, 512 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: oh yeah, I think that they were a lot of 513 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: alone time, and most of their friends did not have children. 514 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: They were just you know a lot of school teacher 515 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: friends who some of them were you know, bachelor's or bachelorettes. Uh, 516 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: and just or couples that prefer to travel or go 517 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: to lectures or you know, go to the opera, and 518 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: they did not want to be burdened with children. And 519 00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: both of my parents, I think we're sort of in 520 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,479 Speaker 1: that category. And as I mentioned in this book, they 521 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: did have a child, baby that my mother lost. Um No, 522 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: she did not like lose it in the supermarket. She 523 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: lost the baby at seven and a half months. Um. 524 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: And I think they were very afraid to try again. 525 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: And then I was born to them when they were 526 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: in their forties, but they were old. They were like 527 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: an old forties. They were you know, you could see 528 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: from that photo that my mother wore blouses that buttoned 529 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: up the back. I don't even know where you get 530 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: these kind of blouses, you know. She she wore like 531 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: blouses with like the plaquette in the front, blouses. You know. Um, 532 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: I never saw her wear like a button down shirt 533 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: or any kind from she was she was born. Uh. 534 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: They were both grew up in Manhattan, East Harlem, both 535 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: New Yorkers. Yes, they were both born in this country, 536 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: but all of their grandparents were from Russia. And both 537 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: your parents were school teachers. Yes, for a long time. 538 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: In fact, my mother was Woody Allen's teacher. Yeah, I know, 539 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: I know, strange, Um, and he remembers her. Well, describe 540 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: your okay. She was very tough. She was well, you 541 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: asked me if they were school teachers. My mother became 542 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: an assistant principal, a job for which she was perfectly suited. 543 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: She was a disciplinarian. She was somebody. She was about 544 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: five to then. She shrunk as she got older. Was 545 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: a very tiny spark club more like a fire hydrant. 546 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: She was short, and she was very very strong, and 547 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: she was heavy, and she was zofted. She was very smart. 548 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,479 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say, I mean she went to Hunter College, 549 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: my father went to City College. Um. She was very 550 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: very bright. Uh. She was good in a crisis. She 551 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: would be the kind she was, would be a great administrator. 552 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: She was very tough. It's a very capable, very very capable, 553 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: very tough. I think she resented that. Um. As a woman, 554 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: she was not going to necessarily get the same sorts 555 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: of promotions as like men who were much you know, 556 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: less capable than her. Uh. I think that there's a 557 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: kind of like then diagram where some of these skills 558 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: overlap with the skills of being a mom and some 559 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: of them really do not. And uh, she was very uncompromising, 560 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: and I think to be a parent it involves a 561 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: lot of compromise and can be too vigorously honest and apparently, no, 562 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: you can't be too rigorously honest, and you can't be 563 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: too strict. You can't be too rigid. You know, she 564 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: she was rigid, She would rog She had her view 565 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: of the world and the way things should be. This 566 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: is the woman that had the cheese tainer. Yes, yes, 567 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: my favorite. In fact, I think my mother chose that 568 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: she would rather stick to her guns about something that 569 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: she thought was right and have me hate her then 570 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: look for some other way of doing this. Do you 571 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: think your mother sensed the tension between the two of you. 572 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: I think she did. Was almost like she knew. Did 573 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: she know that even she knew this could have gone 574 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: a lot better? No, I don't think she did. I 575 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: think that was the thing that was sort of hard 576 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: to take that I think we would she had empathy, 577 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: but she or she had something I don't know what 578 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: she had, but whatever it was, we the two of 579 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: us were so completely different, like just cut from such 580 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: too completely to use this horrible cliche pieces of cloth, 581 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: not my fabric from seventh grade. Um that there was 582 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: just no way she could even understand. How did that 583 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: influence you raising your child? You have a boy and 584 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: a girl. Yeah, it was totally different. I mean when 585 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: she would say things, your kids set the house on fire. 586 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,959 Speaker 1: Oh well, just short of that. I mean, you know, um, 587 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: you know you made cartoons about you as a mother. 588 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: I have I had to you, Oh my god, I 589 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: have a whole cartoon about being a wimp mom. Where 590 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: when my son was about like three or four, you 591 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: know those kind of crazy arguments where you're like you're 592 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: reading a book about dinosaurs and you go, dinosaurs were very, 593 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: very big, and the kid is in a certain pissy 594 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: moved they go, no, they weren't. And so I think 595 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: my response was, you're right, dinosaurs were as tiny as peas. 596 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, but anyway, I remember when she 597 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: would say, when I would be like incredibly angry, she 598 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: would say, when you have children of your own, you'll understand. 599 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 1: And I knew I wouldn't you know. I understand, all right, 600 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: I'll understand. I'm going to do something. You know, I 601 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: don't want to not have a relationship. Is the family 602 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: with his one child. In my family, there were six children, 603 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: and money was just a constant, you know, it was 604 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 1: just a metronomic reality. Where did you grow up? Massive 605 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,280 Speaker 1: Pequa Long Island part of residential Long Island? King corn stamps? 606 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: Did you snake stamps? Back when they had the old 607 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 1: and in the Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company? Yes, well, 608 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 1: we used to drink tang Tan had tang for breakfast. 609 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 1: My father would make us tang is what the astronauts 610 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: had been told. It was really sugar some tan. I 611 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: want to believe tang is out there. You can probably 612 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: get it on some like weird strawberry quick. We were drinking, 613 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: you know, our parents just let us not eat whatever 614 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: we wanted to. But pretty close. What did your parents 615 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: think about it? And I'm assuming they certainly picked up 616 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: at least allow that. Maybe your father did. Your father 617 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: was a pretty bright guy. Yeah, they were both bright. 618 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: We're both both bright. But your your father seemed have 619 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: more of a sense of humor than your mother. I 620 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: don't know not they They just had a different sense 621 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: if you're very old fashioned. Did they know that they 622 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: were these the font of a lot of the humor 623 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,760 Speaker 1: in your cartoons? M I think that my mother sort 624 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: of new. I think that they did. Yes, yes, they 625 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: did it. I always has denied it, and I would say, 626 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: I'd say, Mom, this is not you, this is this 627 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: is a sort of mom, it's a different different but 628 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: this of course, you know, they did not see this 629 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: book for obvious reasons, and it is not a book 630 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: that I could have written while they were alive. Definitely 631 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: not your Is your husband from the same kind of family? No, No, 632 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: he's from opposite land personally big pies. Yes, oh definitely 633 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:34,879 Speaker 1: midwestern Minnesota. Yes, yes, and I wat yes, yes, I've 634 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 1: watched home movies of his family and they're all like 635 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: attractive and happy and they're like playing. Yes, yes, they're 636 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: like healthy, there courses of the dinner, they're going to 637 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: split some more wood. Yes, they're attractive. They get along 638 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 1: with each other theirs. No, I mean I've seen like 639 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: family photos and they're like setibiotics. What is that? Oh 640 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: my god, I have family photos that are not in 641 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: this book of like my relatives and they're like sitting 642 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,240 Speaker 1: around like the dieting table with bottles of manis chevits 643 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: and those kind of seltzer bottles, and and like they're 644 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: one of them is actually wearing a babushka and they 645 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: look so glum. They look like they're just about to 646 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: get slaughtered. It is. And then they're just not smiling. 647 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: They look just his family, my family, my family, these 648 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: old black and white photos and they're just grim. And 649 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: you say to his family, say, is there any depression 650 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: in your family? After a pause, they say, well, there 651 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: was a sink hole out by the well ones back 652 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: in the then there's just nothing. No, well they you know, 653 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: they're they're Scandinavian, so there is that dark side, but 654 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: that's natural essentially. But yes, but you don't talk about it. 655 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 1: You just don't talk about You don't talk about it, 656 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: and you make the best and you know, you have 657 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: a drink or you you know, go out, Oh, we 658 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 1: discovered a really nice restaurant out on route and they 659 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: have But that aren't they onto something? Don't we find 660 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: that as we get older? Isn't that just the answer? 661 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: Someone said to me, what do you require? Had some life? 662 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: Now I'm gonna be fifty seven years old. I said, 663 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: I want a good reading lamp. I need a good 664 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 1: radio wherever I go. I'm a radio addict. I said 665 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: I need a good cup of coffee. I mean I don't. 666 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: I don't need five star hotels. I don't need private jets. 667 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: I mean all these things that might have been a 668 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: part of in my in my deck, I don't need 669 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,880 Speaker 1: any of that anymore. You know, I need a good uh, 670 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,879 Speaker 1: a good fireplace. Very simple needs spring, Scandinavian needs, yes side. 671 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 1: Well maybe that's like when you get older, it's like, 672 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: do we all become more Scandina, Yes, we all, We're 673 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: all like going towards the Scandinavian side. Tell me about 674 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,359 Speaker 1: your dad in his relationship with your mom. She wore 675 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 1: the pants. She pretty much bore the pants. Yeah, he was. 676 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,359 Speaker 1: I think she helped him a lot. He clung to her. 677 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: She knew what to do, she drove. She was internal relationship, 678 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 1: which many men back then did. Yes, he went from 679 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 1: his mother who was you know, she was actually I 680 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: think kind of nuts. I mean literally, she slept across 681 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 1: the foot of his bed until he was twenty one. 682 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: She was bat She was kind of like a borderline 683 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: bagged and he needed to marry some another woman to 684 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,800 Speaker 1: take care of. Yes, exactly had a little bit of 685 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: an edge to her. Yes, Yes, very hard to please someone, 686 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,880 Speaker 1: hard to please someone who I think he probably read, 687 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,840 Speaker 1: you know, being screened at as love, you know, and 688 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 1: also that she would mention because I care. Because I care, 689 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:24,800 Speaker 1: I will tell you the right thing to do, and 690 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: I will yell at you if you don't do it right. 691 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 1: And you know, this is how I show my love 692 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 1: and I will always take care of you. And she 693 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: always did, she always, But it was and it was 694 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: very much, you know, between the two of them. You know. 695 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,879 Speaker 1: The death of my dad was just the seismic event. 696 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,320 Speaker 1: He was five years old, and it was probably it 697 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: was so painful because I couldn't do anything for him. 698 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,360 Speaker 1: Once I made it, you know, I made it, and 699 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: I made more money than I could ever spend. And 700 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 1: I think to myself, what I wouldn't do to buy 701 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: my dad a car, house, a camel hair coat? Did 702 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: he want that sort of stuff? I mean I bought 703 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:00,840 Speaker 1: I never had a chance to find. Yeah, yeah, I 704 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 1: guess that's I mean. I bought stuff. I mean I 705 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,720 Speaker 1: didn't make that kind of money, but still I wanted 706 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 1: my parents had. Their clothing had was ratty, you know, 707 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: and I would buy sometimes stuff, you know, LLB and 708 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,640 Speaker 1: I would send them stuff. But when I cleaned out 709 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 1: the apartment, I found bags of unopened stuff. I think 710 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 1: occasionally my father would wear a sweater that I had gotten. 711 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,879 Speaker 1: But like the kind of pants that he wore. He wore, 712 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: I think of them as man pants. They were like 713 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: those kind of gray slacks with a crease down the front. 714 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,880 Speaker 1: I never saw him in jeans or khakis, or chinos 715 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: or quarter pants. By the way, man pants, I wear 716 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: gray will blend pants. That's what he wore New York 717 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: man wear. Because you can come home and just throw 718 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: on a button down shirt and a blazer and you're 719 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: off to a cocktail party. Well, my father was not 720 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,160 Speaker 1: going to any cocktail pread wasn't, strangely enough, No, And 721 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: he died first. He died first. And he died in 722 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 1: the place. Yes, And he had been in the place 723 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 1: for how long? Uh not that long, less than about 724 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:10,359 Speaker 1: half a year. He died in the room with her. Uh. Well, 725 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 1: I say this in the book. It was this is 726 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 1: not a typical. He was in hospice and my mother 727 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:21,760 Speaker 1: left the room briefly she left to use the bathroom 728 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,800 Speaker 1: for like two minutes maybe less, and that's when he passed. 729 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:26,840 Speaker 1: Isn't interesting because I'm a firm believer that not with 730 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 1: all people, but some people they have that kind of 731 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: mastery and they're like, I don't want to die in 732 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: front of you. I think that is exactly what happened, 733 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 1: and that's what the hospice lady said. She found out 734 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,759 Speaker 1: about that. Oh, she was sort of shock. I mean 735 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,839 Speaker 1: she was just, uh, I can't you know, it's hard 736 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 1: to even imagine they've been married for married in thirty 737 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,879 Speaker 1: eight it was two thousand seven, I don't know years, 738 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,120 Speaker 1: sixty nine years. Yeah, I mean it was just an 739 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 1: insane amount of time that they've been together. And they 740 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,760 Speaker 1: were together before that, and they were each other's only 741 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 1: they were like, yeah, they were like one person. Did 742 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 1: she last after that almost two years? Did she change 743 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: in her demeanor towards you once? Once she were her 744 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 1: only blood? Kin? I know it was I think maybe 745 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: she was trying to protect me sometimes, that maybe she 746 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 1: thought real, her real emotions would be too much for 747 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: me to handle, and that it was just easier to 748 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,040 Speaker 1: kind of well, you have the father who had crazy mommy. Yeah, 749 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 1: and if I can be so glib about this, and 750 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: I mean very often the woman like your mom, who's 751 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,439 Speaker 1: as strident as leathery as they are, there's some hurt 752 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,319 Speaker 1: that they're protecting what happened with her to the extent 753 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 1: you can say she has an unhappy childhood. I don't know. 754 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,839 Speaker 1: I mean she never told me that she did if 755 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,839 Speaker 1: she didn't ever explored that, and she did not want 756 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: to talk too much about that. I mean she would 757 00:42:55,560 --> 00:43:01,280 Speaker 1: tell me these fixed anecdotes about the past and parents. 758 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,279 Speaker 1: To her father was he did a lot of things, 759 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 1: but one thing that he mostly did was he's a 760 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,879 Speaker 1: pressor in the garment district. But before that he had 761 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: had an ice cream cone factory for a little while, um, 762 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: which she swept out. She wanted to be a ballerina 763 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,960 Speaker 1: at one point, but she was not graceful, uh or 764 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 1: tall enough for anything, but she was saving up for 765 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,279 Speaker 1: ballet shoes. She told me that one. Um. I think 766 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 1: he did some other things. He operated a movie theater 767 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,920 Speaker 1: for a while, like as a projectionist and um, but 768 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,759 Speaker 1: most yeah, I think he was he was he took 769 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 1: tickets on a trolley car. But the main thing he 770 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,280 Speaker 1: did was he was a pressor in the garment district 771 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,320 Speaker 1: and he had five children. His wife, my grandmother, raised 772 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,719 Speaker 1: the children and they had no money. Do you think that, um, 773 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:55,040 Speaker 1: do you think that your perspective which has this wonderful, wonderful, 774 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: wonderful neurosis in it. And I said, like, Woody Allen, 775 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,839 Speaker 1: where you're expressing things? We all you're you're just doing 776 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:02,680 Speaker 1: it in a in a funnier, you know, you and 777 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 1: he in a funnier kind of more interesting way. Do 778 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: you think you owe that to your mom? Probably to 779 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 1: both of them in some way. I think, you know, 780 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 1: my parents were extraordinary people in sweet and sour in combination. 781 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,359 Speaker 1: In your work, do you get the sweet from your 782 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 1: dad and the sour from your mom? I think both 783 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,800 Speaker 1: and both, I think and from both of them. Yeah, yeah, definitely. 784 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:34,560 Speaker 1: What's your next book going to be? About? Things? Stories 785 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:40,800 Speaker 1: and people, pictures and trying to cope? I'll talk about 786 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,000 Speaker 1: it and then I'll like completely drinks it so understand. 787 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: Probably possibly about the New York and that's all I'm 788 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,799 Speaker 1: going to say. What about writing about yourself and your 789 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 1: marriage and your you and your husband or worry we 790 00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,400 Speaker 1: don't we got to stop and shot. We went to 791 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:05,839 Speaker 1: Stop and Shop last night to read, and we went 792 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:07,759 Speaker 1: to Stop and shopping. You miss living in New York 793 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 1: at all. I missed New York all due time. I 794 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 1: miss it. So wherever you I'm not going to say 795 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 1: it on the air, but you live outside the city 796 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: for many, many years, many years, describe what it's like. 797 00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: They're it's very pretty, it's very clean. Air is christ 798 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,200 Speaker 1: The air is crisp, and women a freshly worked out 799 00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,480 Speaker 1: and they have got a Yeah, to some extent, it's 800 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,000 Speaker 1: people seem if they have you know, you don't see 801 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,160 Speaker 1: too many people like yaking to themselves on the street 802 00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,719 Speaker 1: unless they're talking through their phone. It's it's great, But 803 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,840 Speaker 1: I really do miss the city. I don't really like 804 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,879 Speaker 1: to drive, I don't really like how kids are grown. Yes, 805 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:43,800 Speaker 1: so why don't you and your husband moved back to 806 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,120 Speaker 1: the city because he likes living out there? He does, 807 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,360 Speaker 1: he does. He in the same boat I want to 808 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,480 Speaker 1: move out of the city. And my wife was like, 809 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 1: you know, she's singing West Side Story every night. She 810 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:57,439 Speaker 1: just can't imagine leaving New York. Yeah, well, without kids, 811 00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 1: I mean we would not have left the city. But 812 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,719 Speaker 1: with kids it was just impossible, and we can't talk 813 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,920 Speaker 1: Bill into moving back. No, no, no, he really likes 814 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,799 Speaker 1: it out there. He likes having a bird feeder, likes 815 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:10,759 Speaker 1: that we have. I like having a bird feeder. That's 816 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,160 Speaker 1: the one positive thing. We do. Have a bird feeder. 817 00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,160 Speaker 1: You have and you have two birds, and I have 818 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 1: two birds. I have a kayak and I have an 819 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 1: African gray who talks, and I love birds. I'm a 820 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 1: bird nut. Do you mind my asking what the bird says? 821 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,560 Speaker 1: Oh my god, Well she says a lot of things. Um, 822 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,920 Speaker 1: she says good morning, she says good night, she says, 823 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,759 Speaker 1: want want waffle? Can you still teach the bird to 824 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,160 Speaker 1: do things? Yes, yes, she's very neurotic. She plucks. She 825 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:42,719 Speaker 1: she's she's an African gray. She's very very sweet. They're 826 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,960 Speaker 1: notoriously neurotic. She plucks her feathers, and she does say 827 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 1: she does say don't pluck, and then she keeps plucking. 828 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,000 Speaker 1: But the thing I was going to tell you is 829 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,719 Speaker 1: that when people come into the house, she might be 830 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:54,719 Speaker 1: on her feeding stand, she'll get afraid, she'll fly to 831 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,040 Speaker 1: the floor. And I always say it's okay, it's okay, 832 00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,560 Speaker 1: it's okay. So she taught herself that. Now, if she's 833 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:02,360 Speaker 1: on her feeding stand and like some like a plumber 834 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,320 Speaker 1: comes by, he's got like tools off his belt and 835 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,440 Speaker 1: buckets and you know, strange shape, grange shapes like I 836 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 1: always think of them as man. My dog does this 837 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:11,640 Speaker 1: when they see homeless people with like a shopping card 838 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,439 Speaker 1: with plastic bottles, strange shape and like too many things 839 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,520 Speaker 1: on the belt and the buckets. And she'll fly and 840 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,600 Speaker 1: clanging sounds. She'll fly to the floor. She'll sort of 841 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,920 Speaker 1: pace around, and she'll go, it's okay, it's okay, it's okay, 842 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,719 Speaker 1: And and it is incredible, she soothes herself. It's so great. 843 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,279 Speaker 1: So I needed to tell her, I want to I'm 844 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,080 Speaker 1: going to get a bird. Now. There are a lot 845 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:37,440 Speaker 1: of work, I'm telling you, but there's there's so great. 846 00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 1: There's so great. I'll go to any lengths to be loved. Oh, 847 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:42,480 Speaker 1: I know, I know. And I want to have I 848 00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,279 Speaker 1: want to have a I want to have a bird. 849 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,360 Speaker 1: And I want the bird to say to me, it's okay, 850 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,440 Speaker 1: it's okay, it's okay. She says, it's herself. Any more 851 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 1: than that, and that to my list of a good 852 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,360 Speaker 1: reading lamp, A fireplace, a cup of coffee, and a 853 00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:59,920 Speaker 1: gray African one African gray and African gray, and should 854 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 1: name what's your bird's name? Eli? My son named her. 855 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:05,640 Speaker 1: She We thought she was a boy. And you can't 856 00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:07,759 Speaker 1: it's I forget what the word is, but like there's 857 00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:09,960 Speaker 1: you can't tell from the outside. They have to have 858 00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,560 Speaker 1: a blood test, so the vet did a blood test. 859 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:20,000 Speaker 1: They have they have no externals as it were nothing. Yeah, 860 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,239 Speaker 1: blood blood test just get lost in the mail. Yeah, 861 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,160 Speaker 1: So it was Elia. And the other one is a 862 00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:30,799 Speaker 1: kayik and she's not very name Jackie Jack. And she's 863 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:32,640 Speaker 1: not very smart. She's not very smart, but she's so 864 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,920 Speaker 1: adorable and she's really pretty. So you know who needs 865 00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:37,880 Speaker 1: when you're like that pretty, you don't have to be that. 866 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to get a bird. Let me think about it. 867 00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,839 Speaker 1: But if I had a bird, I would name it ros. 868 00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:51,960 Speaker 1: I would name it Rose. You can see ross chests 869 00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,520 Speaker 1: cartoons in the pages of The New Yorker magazine and 870 00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,160 Speaker 1: on her website ras chest dot com. To see a 871 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,560 Speaker 1: picture of Oz and her bird, Jackie, go to Here's 872 00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,200 Speaker 1: the Thing dot org, where you can also see Roz's 873 00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:14,080 Speaker 1: cartoon of this very interview. Oh This is Alec Baldwin 874 00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:15,839 Speaker 1: you're listening to. Here's the thing.