WEBVTT - In Conversation With Mark Goodwin of Bitcoin Magazine 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.920 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Mark Moss Show, 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:05.760 where we talk about the decentralized revolution. Of course, talk 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:08.360 about the way the world is changing through the lens 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:12.240 of politics, finance, and technology, and technology being bitcoin the 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:15.920 decentralized protocol, of course, it's voice technology that changes the 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:20.360 world the most. Now I am joined today by Mark Goodwin. 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:24.520 He's a director of print at the Bitcoin Magazine. He's 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:28.280 an author, and man, he's got some late breaking news 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:30.320 that just got released this morning that I'm excited to 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:32.000 dig into because I haven't I haven't got a chance 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:34.159 to go through it yet. Anyway, Mark, thanks for joining me, 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:38.120 Mark Man, thanks so much. Yeah, longtime listener, first time caller. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:41.000 Great to be here. Yeah, tons of exciting stuff to 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:43.960 talk about, and yeah, thanks so much for having me. Yeah. Now, 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:45.880 I know, you know, you're the director of the print 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:48.920 magazine over there at the Bitcoin Magazine, and you've written 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:50.560 some articles that I wanted to kind of talk about. 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:53.440 But you told me that there's some breaking news that 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:56.920 came out this morning about regulations, and so I do 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.600 want to dig into that first. I am. You know, 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:03.360 I went and made some bold predictions when you know, 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:06.559 the whole FTX collacts happened, and it wasn't so bold 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.760 that the alt coin crowd, the crypto people didn't like 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:11.520 it so much. But I basically said that I think 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:14.280 the regulations are going to come down pretty hard and heavy. 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:17.000 And I said that I don't think there will be 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:21.039 another crypto Bowl run. And I talked about it as 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:23.560 a category, like, of course assets will always just pump 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:25.679 and dump, but as a category, I don't see that. 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:27.200 And the reason why I said that is because I 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:30.040 think I think regulations will be coming down hard. And 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.160 regulations come down hard, then the VC money kind of 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:35.240 goes away, and that was kind of my reasoning. And 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:37.200 now we're seeing a play out. So what were some 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:39.640 of these new regulations. There's been a lot of them, 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.720 but were some of these ones that you just saw? Yeah, No, Mark, 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:45.840 I think you're completely right about that the crypto bowl thesis, 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:50.280 especially with this news. So Yeah, the NYAG came out 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:54.880 today in a lawsuit against coucoin and stated that according 0:01:54.920 --> 0:02:00.720 to them, Ethereum, Luna and ust the Luna stable coin 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:05.000 are all considered securities. You know, according to this lawsuit, 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:08.720 Um that rule was released literally probably about forty five 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:11.720 minutes ago. So I think you're to your point. I mean, 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:14.080 if they if all of those you know, ways to 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:17.680 issue a token are considered securities, which you know, I 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.240 think the howe you know, it's pretty black and white. 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:22.639 I think we can all you know, bitcoiners certainly look 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:25.200 at this ninety year old law and go, okay, pretty 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:28.040 black and white. If the New York Attorney General is 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:31.600 coming out and saying, you know, these three methods of 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:35.760 distributing a token, you know, the ethico, uh this this 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:38.520 luna you know, pre mine, and then you know, pegging 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.600 this to a stable coin, all three of these methods 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.800 are you know, considered securities. That has huge ramifications for 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:48.240 the you know, extended uh crypto space, if you will. 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.280 And I think we're gonna see a very big reckoning 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.000 in that in that sense um with this news. So 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.520 it's a little bit fresh, the markets are still processing it, 0:02:56.600 --> 0:03:02.720 but huge news absolutely. Now the New York New York 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:05.239 has they kind of have their own license called the 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:07.640 bit license. It's been around for the longest. Seems like 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:13.000 New York has been the harshest kind of regulatory agency 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:16.160 to kind of crack down against cryptocurrency. Although they do 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:19.399 issue a license maybe Hawaii is still stricter, but let's 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:21.280 not dig into that. But New York has this kind 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:23.240 of history of being the harsh system. So a lot 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.400 of a lot of times exchanges weren't able to operate 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:28.800 to New York customers, but they could still operate to 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:31.080 the rest. So in the United States, we still have 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:32.720 you know, states rights and things like that, and so 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.160 New York can kind of do that, but then maybe 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:36.960 it doesn't apply to the rest of the United States. 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.480 And so again Blockey, New York residents access to these things. 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:43.160 But what do you think that means? If New York 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:46.560 Attorney General would declare something like a theorem, a pre 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:49.360 mind I'm sorry, a security, what effect would that have 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.839 on somebody in California or Texas. I mean, I would 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:55.040 just say, it's that's a precedent. I mean, that's it's 0:03:55.040 --> 0:04:01.320 an incredibly important legal precedent, very influential offense to come 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:05.200 out in state something like that. I think it does 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:10.840 have ramifications for the national regulatory regime regardless of states, 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.000 you know, I think you know, I think again, you know, 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:17.440 code is speech, and there's you know, it's not necessarily 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:21.039 we should be rooting for government regulation here, but when 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:24.200 we're in within this jurisdiction and there's very clear laws, 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:27.599 I don't think we should really be surprised that this 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:30.120 stuff is coming. But I do think it will have 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:34.359 ramifications nationally, and I think the US, you know, banking 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:37.599 system and the US economy is so important globally that 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.479 it will obviously have huge ramifications on the global economy 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:43.080 as well. Yeah, yeah, I do want to just kind 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:45.800 of reiterate what you just said there. And you know, 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:48.640 while I have said I think that regulations will stop this, 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:50.520 and I don't think there will be another crypto ball 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:53.960 run because of that, I am certainly not calling for regulations. 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:56.320 As a matter of fact, I'm openly saying that I 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:58.520 think the SEC should just be shut down. I think 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:00.520 they should shut down a disgrace. I think Gary Gensler 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.680 should be fired in disgrace. Their job is to protect consumers. 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.320 They've obviously failed at that job, and I don't believe 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:08.800 consumers need to be protected. I think if I can 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:10.400 buy a gambling a lottery ticket, or I can go 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:12.400 gamble in Vegas, I supple to buy whatever I want. 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.840 So I think they shut down. However, they're not. They're 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:19.080 here and so we have to kind of navigate the 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:20.880 world not as we want it to be, but as 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:23.599 it is. And so it's here, and so I do 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:25.040 just want to state that a lot of people got 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:27.159 mad at me. I'm some status, you know, and I 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.240 want this to happen. It's like, no, I'm not a status. 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:32.120 I don't want to happen. But but but it's here, right, 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:34.200 I'm sure you've exactly heard that. You've heard that as well, 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:38.040 But I think to your point, like it sets a precedent, 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:40.960 so like law sort of builds on top of itself 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:43.480 and they want to cite other case laws. So I 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:47.200 think to your point, it can certainly do that. What 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.080 about I want to dig into the et ethereum one 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:53.159 a little bit, but what about on the I don't 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:55.200 know if you're following, and if you're not, that's fine. 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:58.280 But obviously the big, big, big case, it seems like, 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:03.159 is the XRP ripple case. And I saw I didn't 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:05.440 get a dig into it, and if you did, no worries. 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:09.599 But uh, something about some you know, preliminary judgment and 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:12.480 they're saying maybe they might say some of the pre 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:14.760 mind might have been but you know, maybe not I 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:16.279 don't know have you have you looked at that at all? 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.359 I mean a little bit. I I definitely agree. I 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:21.880 think it's like, you know, that case will really be 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:25.080 the landmark case. I think that sort of sets um, 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:28.760 you know, really you know, the regulatory clarity. Um. So 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:31.039 I agree, it's definitely a case to watch. I haven't 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:33.359 actually looked at. It's really hard to tell because the 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:37.000 ripple marketing you know machine has has has a way 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:41.359 of turning any you know, legal you know, legal output 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.640 into into something very bullish and very distorted and hard 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:46.960 to tell what's going on there. Um, So it's a 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:50.200 little bit hard to follow. Um. But no, I haven't. 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:52.440 I haven't dug in too much recently. But um, I 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:55.080 think we're supposed to hear somewhat soon. Um. And I 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:57.920 think whenever that drops, these could be a very related 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:00.240 you know shoes about the fall mark. You know, I 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.880 think the New York AG thing is very big and obviously, 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:07.000 whenever we get clarity on the on the Ripple case, um, 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:10.120 you know, I think the US regulatory regime will have 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:13.920 will have made itself you know, very well well known. Yeah, 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.200 I mean you have to think, I mean New York 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.160 is probably the most influential state, at least in regards 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:21.760 to financial situations, and so to your point, it carries 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:25.840 a lot of weight. Um. The ramifications of Ethereum being 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:28.400 labeled a security, I mean, think about that, right. So 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:32.680 to your point, there's a for the listeners. There's one 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:35.800 hundred year old Howie test which was developed for put 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:38.600 together for citrus grove. So I don't know how citrus 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:41.640 trees kind of compared to this, but it's not so 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:43.640 bad actually. I mean, if you look at the four ways, 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:46.680 given money as an investment hoping for a return to 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:50.320 a common enterprise UM, a common enterprise that has control 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:54.040 over how good the investment does things like that, UM 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:56.680 have expectation of profit. I think that's the way, Yeah, 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:59.760 an expectation of profit. What I know what they're doing. 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:03.640 I had an SEC attorney on Security's attorney on a 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:07.280 few months ago and he said, actually, what what Ripple's 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:09.920 trying to do is they're trying to get these consumers 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:12.360 to come in and say, we didn't buy it for 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.920 an investment and if you and if you regulate it, 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:20.119 you're going to cause us irreparable harm. And so anyway 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:21.520 they're trying to kind of build that case. We didn't 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:23.080 buy it for an investment, like, yeah, right, what would 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:25.400 you buy it for it? Because you can't do anything 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:28.960 with it, you know. But I want to talk about 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:31.240 We'll talk about a theory, but let's talk about the 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:37.040 broader implications of these companies trying to actually go along 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.079 with securities regulations. If they're able to do that. I 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:41.720 think that's kind of interesting conversation. And then, of course 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:44.720 we're bitcoin people. We want to talk about bitcoin. I 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:48.439 like to think that the price is the least kind 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:49.920 of interesting piece, and I like to look at the 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:52.200 development happening on it. And so I know you just 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:55.320 recently wrote a paper talking about the development on bitcoin. 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:57.200 I want to talk about that, and then and then 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:00.280 we'll jump into some bigger stuff about money and stuff 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:02.240 like that. If you're just tuning in you're listening to 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:05.120 the Mark mos Show. We're talking about, of course, the 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:10.440 decentralized revolution. We're talking about bitcoin and the cryptocurrency market overall. 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.040 I'm joined by a special guest, Mark Goodwin. He is 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:18.400 the director of print editorial at Bitcoin Magazine. He's an author. 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:20.720 You can find him at Bitcoin magazine dot com. Just 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:22.720 go to the author section and check out Mark Goodwin. 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:26.520 So we're gonna be back talking about securities, regulations, the 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:30.480 development on the bitcoin blockchain, and money from a bigger perspective. 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:31.840 We'll be back with that and more in a minute. 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:46.880 Don't go away, We'll be right back. All right, Welcome back. 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:48.480 If you just tune in, you are listening to the 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:52.000 Mark Mass Show. I'm joined by Mark Goodwin. He's the 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:55.320 director of print editorial Bitcoin magazine. And Mark, we are 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:57.800 talking about, you know, this news from the New York 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:01.679 ag coming out with etherem being a security one thing 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:03.480 that I had talked about and I'm just curious your 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:07.000 take on this that you know, I think it was 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:11.319 actually Jack Mollers who called this like regulatory arbitrage, right, 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:13.959 like you're trying to avoid these regulatory sanctions and they're 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:15.560 kind of playing in that middle, and they're able to 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:17.880 kind of make that difference because if they had to 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:21.079 file a security that's a long process. It's a very 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:25.040 expensive process. But most importantly the problem that I see, 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:26.720 of course, these companies have a lot of money because 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:28.520 they did the pre mind but if they had to 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:33.320 do full disclosures, Vitallic would have to say how many 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:36.760 Ethereum he got, and how much Joseph Lubin has and 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:40.439 what the Ethereum Foundation has and what their involvement is 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.400 and how much they control. I mean, like could they 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:45.520 even do that? And even if they even if they 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:49.160 could and they did, what would people think? Yeah, I 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:52.120 mean I highly doubt we'll ever ever ever see that, 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.520 but uh yeah, I mean that is sort of you know, 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:58.679 that's how you if you want to deal in the US, 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:02.080 jurisdiction got to play ball and uh you know the 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:05.800 Howie test is yeah, ninety years old. Um, and so 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:08.200 uh you know these folks, I think, you know, the 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:12.960 US regulatory regime you know, is not doing anything to 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:15.880 make to make the water warm to come into the 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:19.079 US right now and try to uh you know make money, right. 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:22.280 I mean, there's they're threatening raising capital gains tax from 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:26.800 twenty percent to forty percent, you know, huge billionaire tax 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:29.120 is coming. All of this this big talk about you know, 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:31.559 how they're going to try to service this debt um 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:34.040 and so what that's really going to do is just 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:38.760 further offshore you know, uh, you know investment capital in 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.120 the United States. Uh. So I think we will see 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.040 jurisdictional arbitrage. I mean, we've definitely already seen it. I 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:47.080 think the lack of clarity over the last you know, 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.160 handful of years has driven a lot of these banks 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.880 to you know, to Bahamian Bermuda banks, you know, driven 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:56.400 them off shore, driven them to Asia. I think we'll 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.480 continue to see that. That said, I think when we 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:01.760 do get some regulatory clarity, which it looks like we 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:04.640 are getting, whether or not it's what the industry at 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:08.599 large wants to see. Getting that clarity, I think will 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:11.600 you know, be attractive to businesses if they have very 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:16.800 clear you know, filing disclosure, all those practices are very clear. 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:19.240 I think they will come back. So it would be 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.480 very interesting. Now Gary Gensler, the head of the SEC, 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:24.600 in the previous head of the SEC, J Clayton, we're 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.720 both very clear to say that bitcoin is a commodity, 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:30.200 and Gary Gensler has kind of come out again saying 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:32.080 bitcoin is a commodity. It's the only one I'm gonna 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:34.840 say pretty much. They are all those security so they've 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:38.360 kind of said that. So bitcoin is a is a commodity. 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:41.240 It's it doesn't have a central issue. Everybody has the 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:43.880 same opportunity to go get it. It's all fungible and 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:46.199 those are kind of the main thing. So if you 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:47.880 just stick with bitcoin, you don't have to worry about 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:51.160 all that regulatory stuff. So, UM, it's a good point. Now. 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:54.040 I just got back. I was in Jackson Hole, Wyoming 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:57.600 at the Bitcoin ski Week. Amanda Calvary put together about 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:01.520 two hundred bitcoinners came together and it was amazing. UM. 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:03.040 Got to spend a couple of days on the mountain 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:05.520 as well, and it was really cool to talk about 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:08.360 a lot of the development that's happening on bitcoin. And 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:10.920 I know you just recently wrote a paper, UM talking 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:15.840 about that, talking about these ordinals. Now, at first glance, 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:20.480 or maybe the initial buzz was that, oh NFTs on bitcoin. UM, 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:22.800 give us, give us kind of a high level on 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:26.360 on these ordinals. What you're thinking about that? Yeah, totally. UM. 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:30.240 Well it's a really interesting project. UM. It's definitely super controversial, 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:34.520 which I totally understand why. UM. But more or less 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:36.960 it breaks down into, you know, kind of two parts. 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:41.280 It's created by another Bay Area bitcoiner out here, Casey 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:44.800 wrote a more there's kind of two parts to the project. UM. 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:49.000 The sort of this idea of ordinal theory of sort 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:52.520 of like uh, you know, looking at satoshi's on an 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:57.960 individual issuance level, like a serial number, um, arbitrarily uh 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:01.880 and you know, you know, imbuing value to it based 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:05.120 on a sentimental reason of some reaction to the number 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:07.120 or you know when it was found, when that block 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:11.839 was mined, you know, when this setoshi was issued. So 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:13.720 that's kind of part of it is this this sort 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:18.760 of arbitrary index of looking at how setoshi's are issued 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.720 and then distributed within a transaction. So it's just kind 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.320 of an interesting way to look at the at the network. 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:28.080 And then the second part of it, which I think 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:31.320 is kind of more of the controversial part, is the inscriptions. 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:36.000 So it's this new tooling that takes advantage of the 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:39.880 witness data. With the block sized increase in twenty seventeen 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:43.600 was segment and then tap root came out a couple 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:47.360 of years ago and increased some standardness bounds, so basically 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:50.520 allowed you know, this tooling to exist where you can 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:56.400 inscribe arbitrary data into a Bitcoin transaction. That data is 0:14:56.440 --> 0:15:00.000 stored in the witness data, not in the actual transaction 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:04.280 action data. UM and uh, yeah, it allows people to 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:10.760 create basically immutable data, um, if they want to pay 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:12.720 for it, if they want to pay the fee. So yes, 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:16.480 some people are using it to put monkey JPEGs on 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:20.000 the chain, which is you know, it's either a valid 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:23.920 transaction or an invalid transaction. That's bitcoin, right, UM, not 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:26.800 the use case I would necessarily use it for. Right. 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:31.400 But then you are seeing people storing you know, bannable files. 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.480 We have STL files, three D printing files. We got 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:38.760 the Yankee Google out in there. We're seeing text, bannable texts. 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.320 The Bible was inscribed to King James version, the whole. 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:45.360 There's a lot of interesting use cases in that arbitrary 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:50.320 data beyond the traditional kind of NFT wash trading stuff 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:53.880 we've seen from kind of the the ethereum ecosystem. So 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:59.760 they can put the whole Bible on there, oh yeah, wow, 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:01.560 a lot of I think they split it up into 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:06.520 I think five parts. But yeah, you know you could 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.600 store up to four megabytes, um, you know, up to 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:12.880 the full block size. UM. So you can fit a 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:16.240 lot of text in four megabytes. Yeah, I mean that's incredible. 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:18.640 I you know, at first it was like the j 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.480 the jpeg thing, right, and which which never made sense 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:23.840 to me in the first place, because it doesn't make 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:26.480 sense to take a physical object and then try to 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.680 match it to something digital. You know. Um, of course 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:34.880 it just doesn't make sense to me. But there is information, 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:37.320 digital information that is very valuable that does need to 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.400 be protected. Um. It makes me think of that movie 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:42.440 Fahrenheit I think four fifty one, right where they went 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.560 around and burned all the books, yeah, which which sounds 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:47.800 actually very similar to where we're at, where the whole 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:51.040 world had the civil war, and so to prevent the 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:52.800 war from a civil war from ever happening again, they 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:54.440 got rid of all the information. There was just one 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:56.520 arbitrare of truth and everyone just believed the same thing. 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:58.960 There would be no war, which sounds sort of like 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:00.920 where we're going, and so we can see it sounds 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:03.400 like where we are, my friend, I think we've been 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:06.000 there for a bit, where we're burning books and banning 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:10.000 platforms and deep platforming everybody left and right. Um, so 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.399 I do think there's an absolute need for immutable truth. Uh. 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:15.600 And you know, bitcoin is a database, you know, we 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:18.639 love it as this economic force, and of course it 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.040 is that, and that will always be its main you know, 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.000 it's main principle. It's a main it's main function, but 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:26.520 it is a database. And uh, you know, if someone 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.680 wants to pay uh, and they think imbuing this data 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.640 and everybody's notes for eternity, um, you know is worth 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:35.879 is worth the fee then uh, you know, that's their 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:37.440 right to do it. And you know, I think we'll 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:40.320 see some interesting use cases. I think it's been there's 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:43.560 been a lack of creativity at the immediate We sort 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.200 of there was a big just copying of this culture 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:49.240 that existed before. Um. I'm excited to see new culture 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:54.280 arise from it. Um. It's interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:55.520 I want to dig into some of some of this. 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:56.920 I have a couple questions here. But if you're just 0:17:56.960 --> 0:17:58.920 tuning in, you're listening to the Mark Moss Show. Of course, 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:01.680 we're talking about each and every week the decentralized revolution, 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:04.720 and I am joined by Mark Goodwin. He's the director 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:08.000 of print editorial at Bitcoin Magazine, and we are talking 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:11.480 about this new development on the bitcoin blockchain that's not 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:13.840 just money, it's a database. As he said, we're gonna 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:15.640 talking about the good, the bad, and where this goes 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.160 and the bigger topic of money. So we'll be back 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:19.720 with all that and more in a minute. You don't 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:20.800 want to go in away. This is going to be 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:26.960 an important conversation. We'll be right back. All right, Welcome back. 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:28.439 If you're just tuning in, you are listening to the 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.800 Mark Moss Show. We're talking about bitcoin. We're talking about 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:34.919 the development on bitcoin, and I'm joined by Mark Goodwin, 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:38.639 the director of print editorial at Bitcoin Magazine. And you know, 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.280 one thing I was thinking of when you were talking 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:44.600 and when I first saw the ordinals Mark, was that 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:47.359 my first thought. I kind of had this like knee 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.000 jerk reaction, which is, like, why don't we just leave 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:52.680 bitcoin alone? You see what happened? You put the tap 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:55.040 root in and then the law of unintended consequences kicks 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:57.840 in and now we have this thing going on. And 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:01.240 that was kind of my knee jerk reaction to it. It, um, 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:03.960 you know, and then I'm starting to think, well, I 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.199 guess let's just see how the the free market, you know, 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.119 works itself out. What were your thoughts or where are 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:12.840 you at with it? You know? And yeah, I think 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:16.720 I think I'm with you, Um, you know, uh, I 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:21.320 obviously I'm you know, I'm a believer in censorship resistant money. UM. 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:24.120 I'm also a believer in the consensus and rules of bitcoin. 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:26.920 That's why I'm a bitcoiner. Uh. None of those things 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:30.960 have been violated UM by this new tooling UM. But 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:32.359 I agree with you. I think there has been a 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.600 really big knee dric reaction to it. UM, you know, 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.720 because this ultimately isn't the main you know, purpose of 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:42.440 bitcoin UM. But I think the the you know, the 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:46.000 free market, or maybe more more specifically, the fee market 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:50.320 UM is ultimately going to uh you know sort of 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:54.560 you know, be the curator of of what comes next. UM. 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:56.479 And And just when you look at it from an 0:19:56.480 --> 0:20:00.000 economic standpoint, this idea of you know, it's like anyone 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:03.239 could always have spammed the blockchain forever and bought up 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:05.560 every block, and you know, of course someone wants to 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:08.240 waste all their bitcoin doing that. You know, of course, 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:11.840 go for it. Sure that block space was always available 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:17.359 to be purchased. But when you're doing inscriptions, UH, you know, 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:19.159 you want to buy a full block, you want to 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:23.199 you want to inscribe a substantial amount of data, you know, 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:27.000 above like three megabytes or something, UM, that gets incredibly expensive. 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:31.119 And when there's a dynamic fee market. You know, a 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:34.920 ten x and fees when you're paying fifty cents for 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:37.800 a transaction, is you know, that's not that's okay. You 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:39.879 know you can kind of handle that when you're paying 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:43.800 thousands of dollars to buy a whole block. You know, 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:47.119