1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Mark Moss Show, 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: where we talk about the decentralized revolution. Of course, talk 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: about the way the world is changing through the lens 4 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: of politics, finance, and technology, and technology being bitcoin the 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: decentralized protocol, of course, it's voice technology that changes the 6 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: world the most. Now I am joined today by Mark Goodwin. 7 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: He's a director of print at the Bitcoin Magazine. He's 8 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: an author, and man, he's got some late breaking news 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: that just got released this morning that I'm excited to 10 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: dig into because I haven't I haven't got a chance 11 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: to go through it yet. Anyway, Mark, thanks for joining me, 12 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: Mark Man, thanks so much. Yeah, longtime listener, first time caller. 13 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: Great to be here. Yeah, tons of exciting stuff to 14 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: talk about, and yeah, thanks so much for having me. Yeah. Now, 15 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 1: I know, you know, you're the director of the print 16 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: magazine over there at the Bitcoin Magazine, and you've written 17 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: some articles that I wanted to kind of talk about. 18 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: But you told me that there's some breaking news that 19 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: came out this morning about regulations, and so I do 20 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: want to dig into that first. I am. You know, 21 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: I went and made some bold predictions when you know, 22 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,559 Speaker 1: the whole FTX collacts happened, and it wasn't so bold 23 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: that the alt coin crowd, the crypto people didn't like 24 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: it so much. But I basically said that I think 25 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: the regulations are going to come down pretty hard and heavy. 26 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: And I said that I don't think there will be 27 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: another crypto Bowl run. And I talked about it as 28 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: a category, like, of course assets will always just pump 29 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: and dump, but as a category, I don't see that. 30 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: And the reason why I said that is because I 31 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: think I think regulations will be coming down hard. And 32 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: regulations come down hard, then the VC money kind of 33 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: goes away, and that was kind of my reasoning. And 34 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: now we're seeing a play out. So what were some 35 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: of these new regulations. There's been a lot of them, 36 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: but were some of these ones that you just saw? Yeah, No, Mark, 37 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: I think you're completely right about that the crypto bowl thesis, 38 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: especially with this news. So Yeah, the NYAG came out 39 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: today in a lawsuit against coucoin and stated that according 40 00:01:54,920 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: to them, Ethereum, Luna and ust the Luna stable coin 41 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: are all considered securities. You know, according to this lawsuit, 42 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: Um that rule was released literally probably about forty five 43 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: minutes ago. So I think you're to your point. I mean, 44 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: if they if all of those you know, ways to 45 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: issue a token are considered securities, which you know, I 46 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: think the howe you know, it's pretty black and white. 47 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: I think we can all you know, bitcoiners certainly look 48 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: at this ninety year old law and go, okay, pretty 49 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: black and white. If the New York Attorney General is 50 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: coming out and saying, you know, these three methods of 51 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: distributing a token, you know, the ethico, uh this this 52 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: luna you know, pre mine, and then you know, pegging 53 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: this to a stable coin, all three of these methods 54 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: are you know, considered securities. That has huge ramifications for 55 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: the you know, extended uh crypto space, if you will. 56 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: And I think we're gonna see a very big reckoning 57 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: in that in that sense um with this news. So 58 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: it's a little bit fresh, the markets are still processing it, 59 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: but huge news absolutely. Now the New York New York 60 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 1: has they kind of have their own license called the 61 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: bit license. It's been around for the longest. Seems like 62 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: New York has been the harshest kind of regulatory agency 63 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: to kind of crack down against cryptocurrency. Although they do 64 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,399 Speaker 1: issue a license maybe Hawaii is still stricter, but let's 65 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: not dig into that. But New York has this kind 66 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: of history of being the harsh system. So a lot 67 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: of a lot of times exchanges weren't able to operate 68 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: to New York customers, but they could still operate to 69 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: the rest. So in the United States, we still have 70 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: you know, states rights and things like that, and so 71 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: New York can kind of do that, but then maybe 72 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: it doesn't apply to the rest of the United States. 73 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: And so again Blockey, New York residents access to these things. 74 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: But what do you think that means? If New York 75 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: Attorney General would declare something like a theorem, a pre 76 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: mind I'm sorry, a security, what effect would that have 77 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,839 Speaker 1: on somebody in California or Texas. I mean, I would 78 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: just say, it's that's a precedent. I mean, that's it's 79 00:03:55,040 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: an incredibly important legal precedent, very influential offense to come 80 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: out in state something like that. I think it does 81 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: have ramifications for the national regulatory regime regardless of states, 82 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: you know, I think you know, I think again, you know, 83 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: code is speech, and there's you know, it's not necessarily 84 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: we should be rooting for government regulation here, but when 85 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: we're in within this jurisdiction and there's very clear laws, 86 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: I don't think we should really be surprised that this 87 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: stuff is coming. But I do think it will have 88 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:34,359 Speaker 1: ramifications nationally, and I think the US, you know, banking 89 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: system and the US economy is so important globally that 90 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 1: it will obviously have huge ramifications on the global economy 91 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, yeah, I do want to just kind 92 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: of reiterate what you just said there. And you know, 93 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: while I have said I think that regulations will stop this, 94 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: and I don't think there will be another crypto ball 95 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: run because of that, I am certainly not calling for regulations. 96 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, I'm openly saying that I 97 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: think the SEC should just be shut down. I think 98 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: they should shut down a disgrace. I think Gary Gensler 99 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: should be fired in disgrace. Their job is to protect consumers. 100 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: They've obviously failed at that job, and I don't believe 101 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: consumers need to be protected. I think if I can 102 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: buy a gambling a lottery ticket, or I can go 103 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: gamble in Vegas, I supple to buy whatever I want. 104 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: So I think they shut down. However, they're not. They're 105 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: here and so we have to kind of navigate the 106 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: world not as we want it to be, but as 107 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 1: it is. And so it's here, and so I do 108 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: just want to state that a lot of people got 109 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: mad at me. I'm some status, you know, and I 110 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: want this to happen. It's like, no, I'm not a status. 111 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: I don't want to happen. But but but it's here, right, 112 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've exactly heard that. You've heard that as well, 113 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: But I think to your point, like it sets a precedent, 114 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: so like law sort of builds on top of itself 115 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: and they want to cite other case laws. So I 116 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: think to your point, it can certainly do that. What 117 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: about I want to dig into the et ethereum one 118 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: a little bit, but what about on the I don't 119 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: know if you're following, and if you're not, that's fine. 120 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 1: But obviously the big, big, big case, it seems like, 121 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: is the XRP ripple case. And I saw I didn't 122 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: get a dig into it, and if you did, no worries. 123 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 1: But uh, something about some you know, preliminary judgment and 124 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: they're saying maybe they might say some of the pre 125 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: mind might have been but you know, maybe not I 126 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: don't know have you have you looked at that at all? 127 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,359 Speaker 1: I mean a little bit. I I definitely agree. I 128 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: think it's like, you know, that case will really be 129 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: the landmark case. I think that sort of sets um, 130 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: you know, really you know, the regulatory clarity. Um. So 131 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 1: I agree, it's definitely a case to watch. I haven't 132 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,359 Speaker 1: actually looked at. It's really hard to tell because the 133 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: ripple marketing you know machine has has has a way 134 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 1: of turning any you know, legal you know, legal output 135 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: into into something very bullish and very distorted and hard 136 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: to tell what's going on there. Um, So it's a 137 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: little bit hard to follow. Um. But no, I haven't. 138 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: I haven't dug in too much recently. But um, I 139 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: think we're supposed to hear somewhat soon. Um. And I 140 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: think whenever that drops, these could be a very related 141 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: you know shoes about the fall mark. You know, I 142 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: think the New York AG thing is very big and obviously, 143 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: whenever we get clarity on the on the Ripple case, um, 144 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: you know, I think the US regulatory regime will have 145 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: will have made itself you know, very well well known. Yeah, 146 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: I mean you have to think, I mean New York 147 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: is probably the most influential state, at least in regards 148 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: to financial situations, and so to your point, it carries 149 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: a lot of weight. Um. The ramifications of Ethereum being 150 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: labeled a security, I mean, think about that, right. So 151 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: to your point, there's a for the listeners. There's one 152 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: hundred year old Howie test which was developed for put 153 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: together for citrus grove. So I don't know how citrus 154 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: trees kind of compared to this, but it's not so 155 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: bad actually. I mean, if you look at the four ways, 156 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: given money as an investment hoping for a return to 157 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: a common enterprise UM, a common enterprise that has control 158 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: over how good the investment does things like that, UM 159 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: have expectation of profit. I think that's the way, Yeah, 160 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: an expectation of profit. What I know what they're doing. 161 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: I had an SEC attorney on Security's attorney on a 162 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: few months ago and he said, actually, what what Ripple's 163 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: trying to do is they're trying to get these consumers 164 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: to come in and say, we didn't buy it for 165 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: an investment and if you and if you regulate it, 166 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:20,119 Speaker 1: you're going to cause us irreparable harm. And so anyway 167 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: they're trying to kind of build that case. We didn't 168 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: buy it for an investment, like, yeah, right, what would 169 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: you buy it for it? Because you can't do anything 170 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: with it, you know. But I want to talk about 171 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: We'll talk about a theory, but let's talk about the 172 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: broader implications of these companies trying to actually go along 173 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 1: with securities regulations. If they're able to do that. I 174 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: think that's kind of interesting conversation. And then, of course 175 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: we're bitcoin people. We want to talk about bitcoin. I 176 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 1: like to think that the price is the least kind 177 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: of interesting piece, and I like to look at the 178 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: development happening on it. And so I know you just 179 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: recently wrote a paper talking about the development on bitcoin. 180 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: I want to talk about that, and then and then 181 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: we'll jump into some bigger stuff about money and stuff 182 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: like that. If you're just tuning in you're listening to 183 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: the Mark mos Show. We're talking about, of course, the 184 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: decentralized revolution. We're talking about bitcoin and the cryptocurrency market overall. 185 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: I'm joined by a special guest, Mark Goodwin. He is 186 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: the director of print editorial at Bitcoin Magazine. He's an author. 187 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: You can find him at Bitcoin magazine dot com. Just 188 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: go to the author section and check out Mark Goodwin. 189 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: So we're gonna be back talking about securities, regulations, the 190 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: development on the bitcoin blockchain, and money from a bigger perspective. 191 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: We'll be back with that and more in a minute. 192 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: Don't go away, We'll be right back. All right, Welcome back. 193 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: If you just tune in, you are listening to the 194 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: Mark Mass Show. I'm joined by Mark Goodwin. He's the 195 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: director of print editorial Bitcoin magazine. And Mark, we are 196 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: talking about, you know, this news from the New York 197 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 1: ag coming out with etherem being a security one thing 198 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: that I had talked about and I'm just curious your 199 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: take on this that you know, I think it was 200 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 1: actually Jack Mollers who called this like regulatory arbitrage, right, 201 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 1: like you're trying to avoid these regulatory sanctions and they're 202 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: kind of playing in that middle, and they're able to 203 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: kind of make that difference because if they had to 204 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 1: file a security that's a long process. It's a very 205 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: expensive process. But most importantly the problem that I see, 206 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: of course, these companies have a lot of money because 207 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: they did the pre mind but if they had to 208 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: do full disclosures, Vitallic would have to say how many 209 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: Ethereum he got, and how much Joseph Lubin has and 210 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 1: what the Ethereum Foundation has and what their involvement is 211 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: and how much they control. I mean, like could they 212 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: even do that? And even if they even if they 213 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: could and they did, what would people think? Yeah, I 214 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: mean I highly doubt we'll ever ever ever see that, 215 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: but uh yeah, I mean that is sort of you know, 216 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: that's how you if you want to deal in the US, 217 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: jurisdiction got to play ball and uh you know the 218 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: Howie test is yeah, ninety years old. Um, and so 219 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 1: uh you know these folks, I think, you know, the 220 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 1: US regulatory regime you know, is not doing anything to 221 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: make to make the water warm to come into the 222 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 1: US right now and try to uh you know make money, right. 223 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: I mean, there's they're threatening raising capital gains tax from 224 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: twenty percent to forty percent, you know, huge billionaire tax 225 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: is coming. All of this this big talk about you know, 226 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 1: how they're going to try to service this debt um 227 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: and so what that's really going to do is just 228 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: further offshore you know, uh, you know investment capital in 229 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: the United States. Uh. So I think we will see 230 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: jurisdictional arbitrage. I mean, we've definitely already seen it. I 231 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: think the lack of clarity over the last you know, 232 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: handful of years has driven a lot of these banks 233 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: to you know, to Bahamian Bermuda banks, you know, driven 234 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: them off shore, driven them to Asia. I think we'll 235 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: continue to see that. That said, I think when we 236 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: do get some regulatory clarity, which it looks like we 237 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: are getting, whether or not it's what the industry at 238 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,599 Speaker 1: large wants to see. Getting that clarity, I think will 239 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: you know, be attractive to businesses if they have very 240 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: clear you know, filing disclosure, all those practices are very clear. 241 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: I think they will come back. So it would be 242 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: very interesting. Now Gary Gensler, the head of the SEC, 243 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: in the previous head of the SEC, J Clayton, we're 244 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: both very clear to say that bitcoin is a commodity, 245 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 1: and Gary Gensler has kind of come out again saying 246 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: bitcoin is a commodity. It's the only one I'm gonna 247 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: say pretty much. They are all those security so they've 248 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: kind of said that. So bitcoin is a is a commodity. 249 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: It's it doesn't have a central issue. Everybody has the 250 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: same opportunity to go get it. It's all fungible and 251 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,199 Speaker 1: those are kind of the main thing. So if you 252 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: just stick with bitcoin, you don't have to worry about 253 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: all that regulatory stuff. So, UM, it's a good point. Now. 254 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: I just got back. I was in Jackson Hole, Wyoming 255 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: at the Bitcoin ski Week. Amanda Calvary put together about 256 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: two hundred bitcoinners came together and it was amazing. UM. 257 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: Got to spend a couple of days on the mountain 258 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: as well, and it was really cool to talk about 259 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: a lot of the development that's happening on bitcoin. And 260 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: I know you just recently wrote a paper, UM talking 261 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: about that, talking about these ordinals. Now, at first glance, 262 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: or maybe the initial buzz was that, oh NFTs on bitcoin. UM, 263 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: give us, give us kind of a high level on 264 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: on these ordinals. What you're thinking about that? Yeah, totally. UM. 265 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: Well it's a really interesting project. UM. It's definitely super controversial, 266 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: which I totally understand why. UM. But more or less 267 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: it breaks down into, you know, kind of two parts. 268 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: It's created by another Bay Area bitcoiner out here, Casey 269 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: wrote a more there's kind of two parts to the project. UM. 270 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: The sort of this idea of ordinal theory of sort 271 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: of like uh, you know, looking at satoshi's on an 272 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: individual issuance level, like a serial number, um, arbitrarily uh 273 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: and you know, you know, imbuing value to it based 274 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: on a sentimental reason of some reaction to the number 275 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: or you know when it was found, when that block 276 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,839 Speaker 1: was mined, you know, when this setoshi was issued. So 277 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: that's kind of part of it is this this sort 278 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: of arbitrary index of looking at how setoshi's are issued 279 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: and then distributed within a transaction. So it's just kind 280 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: of an interesting way to look at the at the network. 281 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: And then the second part of it, which I think 282 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: is kind of more of the controversial part, is the inscriptions. 283 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: So it's this new tooling that takes advantage of the 284 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: witness data. With the block sized increase in twenty seventeen 285 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: was segment and then tap root came out a couple 286 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: of years ago and increased some standardness bounds, so basically 287 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: allowed you know, this tooling to exist where you can 288 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: inscribe arbitrary data into a Bitcoin transaction. That data is 289 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: stored in the witness data, not in the actual transaction 290 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: action data. UM and uh, yeah, it allows people to 291 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: create basically immutable data, um, if they want to pay 292 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: for it, if they want to pay the fee. So yes, 293 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: some people are using it to put monkey JPEGs on 294 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: the chain, which is you know, it's either a valid 295 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: transaction or an invalid transaction. That's bitcoin, right, UM, not 296 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: the use case I would necessarily use it for. Right. 297 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: But then you are seeing people storing you know, bannable files. 298 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: We have STL files, three D printing files. We got 299 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: the Yankee Google out in there. We're seeing text, bannable texts. 300 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: The Bible was inscribed to King James version, the whole. 301 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: There's a lot of interesting use cases in that arbitrary 302 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: data beyond the traditional kind of NFT wash trading stuff 303 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: we've seen from kind of the the ethereum ecosystem. So 304 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: they can put the whole Bible on there, oh yeah, wow, 305 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: a lot of I think they split it up into 306 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: I think five parts. But yeah, you know you could 307 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: store up to four megabytes, um, you know, up to 308 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: the full block size. UM. So you can fit a 309 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: lot of text in four megabytes. Yeah, I mean that's incredible. 310 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: I you know, at first it was like the j 311 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: the jpeg thing, right, and which which never made sense 312 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: to me in the first place, because it doesn't make 313 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: sense to take a physical object and then try to 314 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: match it to something digital. You know. Um, of course 315 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: it just doesn't make sense to me. But there is information, 316 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: digital information that is very valuable that does need to 317 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: be protected. Um. It makes me think of that movie 318 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: Fahrenheit I think four fifty one, right where they went 319 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: around and burned all the books, yeah, which which sounds 320 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: actually very similar to where we're at, where the whole 321 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: world had the civil war, and so to prevent the 322 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: war from a civil war from ever happening again, they 323 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: got rid of all the information. There was just one 324 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: arbitrare of truth and everyone just believed the same thing. 325 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: There would be no war, which sounds sort of like 326 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: where we're going, and so we can see it sounds 327 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: like where we are, my friend, I think we've been 328 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: there for a bit, where we're burning books and banning 329 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: platforms and deep platforming everybody left and right. Um, so 330 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: I do think there's an absolute need for immutable truth. Uh. 331 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: And you know, bitcoin is a database, you know, we 332 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 1: love it as this economic force, and of course it 333 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: is that, and that will always be its main you know, 334 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: it's main principle. It's a main it's main function, but 335 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: it is a database. And uh, you know, if someone 336 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: wants to pay uh, and they think imbuing this data 337 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 1: and everybody's notes for eternity, um, you know is worth 338 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: is worth the fee then uh, you know, that's their 339 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: right to do it. And you know, I think we'll 340 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: see some interesting use cases. I think it's been there's 341 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: been a lack of creativity at the immediate We sort 342 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: of there was a big just copying of this culture 343 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: that existed before. Um. I'm excited to see new culture 344 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: arise from it. Um. It's interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, 345 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: I want to dig into some of some of this. 346 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 1: I have a couple questions here. But if you're just 347 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: tuning in, you're listening to the Mark Moss Show. Of course, 348 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: we're talking about each and every week the decentralized revolution, 349 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: and I am joined by Mark Goodwin. He's the director 350 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: of print editorial at Bitcoin Magazine, and we are talking 351 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: about this new development on the bitcoin blockchain that's not 352 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: just money, it's a database. As he said, we're gonna 353 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: talking about the good, the bad, and where this goes 354 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 1: and the bigger topic of money. So we'll be back 355 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: with all that and more in a minute. You don't 356 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: want to go in away. This is going to be 357 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: an important conversation. We'll be right back. All right, Welcome back. 358 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 1: If you're just tuning in, you are listening to the 359 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: Mark Moss Show. We're talking about bitcoin. We're talking about 360 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 1: the development on bitcoin, and I'm joined by Mark Goodwin, 361 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 1: the director of print editorial at Bitcoin Magazine. And you know, 362 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: one thing I was thinking of when you were talking 363 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: and when I first saw the ordinals Mark, was that 364 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: my first thought. I kind of had this like knee 365 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: jerk reaction, which is, like, why don't we just leave 366 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: bitcoin alone? You see what happened? You put the tap 367 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: root in and then the law of unintended consequences kicks 368 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: in and now we have this thing going on. And 369 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: that was kind of my knee jerk reaction to it. It, um, 370 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: you know, and then I'm starting to think, well, I 371 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,199 Speaker 1: guess let's just see how the the free market, you know, 372 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: works itself out. What were your thoughts or where are 373 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: you at with it? You know? And yeah, I think 374 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: I think I'm with you, Um, you know, uh, I 375 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: obviously I'm you know, I'm a believer in censorship resistant money. UM. 376 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 1: I'm also a believer in the consensus and rules of bitcoin. 377 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: That's why I'm a bitcoiner. Uh. None of those things 378 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: have been violated UM by this new tooling UM. But 379 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: I agree with you. I think there has been a 380 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: really big knee dric reaction to it. UM, you know, 381 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: because this ultimately isn't the main you know, purpose of 382 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: bitcoin UM. But I think the the you know, the 383 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: free market, or maybe more more specifically, the fee market 384 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: UM is ultimately going to uh you know sort of 385 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: you know, be the curator of of what comes next. UM. 386 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,479 Speaker 1: And And just when you look at it from an 387 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: economic standpoint, this idea of you know, it's like anyone 388 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,239 Speaker 1: could always have spammed the blockchain forever and bought up 389 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: every block, and you know, of course someone wants to 390 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: waste all their bitcoin doing that. You know, of course, 391 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: go for it. Sure that block space was always available 392 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: to be purchased. But when you're doing inscriptions, UH, you know, 393 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 1: you want to buy a full block, you want to 394 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: you want to inscribe a substantial amount of data, you know, 395 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: above like three megabytes or something, UM, that gets incredibly expensive. 396 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: And when there's a dynamic fee market. You know, a 397 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: ten x and fees when you're paying fifty cents for 398 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: a transaction, is you know, that's not that's okay. You 399 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: know you can kind of handle that when you're paying 400 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: thousands of dollars to buy a whole block. You know, 401 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 1: a ten x increase, one hundred x increase and a 402 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: dynamic fee uh you know sat per v byte UM 403 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: that becomes incredibly you know, it just doesn't scale at all. Um. 404 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: There's no economic reason incentive to do that. Um. And 405 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: so this fear I think of, you know, bloating or 406 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 1: spamming the blockchain, I think just really doesn't economically play out. 407 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: So but you know, we'll see, we'll see how it goes. 408 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: The men pool has been insane lately. You know, we've 409 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: gotten almost like half a gig up there today, so 410 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: we're seeing a lot of transactions, like fifty thousand transactions 411 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,479 Speaker 1: in the men pool. So, you know, we'll see how 412 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: it all plays out. But I think in the long 413 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: term it's very unsustainable. Yeah. Now, one thing I like 414 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: to think about in terms of Bitcoin I talk about 415 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 1: all the time is is a technological revolution are different 416 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: than technologies the technology like an iPhone, you took a 417 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: phone and computer, you put them together. Cool technological revolutions 418 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: change the course of humanity. So we had five right 419 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: Industrial revolution, steam engines and the railways, electricity and steel, oil, automobiles, 420 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: and then the microprocessor. And what I think about when 421 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 1: I think about those, I think about each one of 422 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: those gave us new sets of building blocks that allowed 423 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: us to build new things that we had no idea 424 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: because we had no idea because we didn't have the 425 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: building blocks. So like steel, for example, or let's say, 426 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: like electricity, there's a first killer application. So the light 427 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: bulb was the first killer application of electricity. So it 428 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: was designed, it was invented, it was created to give 429 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: us electricity, but of course it became used for way 430 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: more than that. And so like steel was so we 431 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,719 Speaker 1: can get a higher we could build a higher building, 432 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: right or a bridge. We didn't know we'd have space 433 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,719 Speaker 1: shuttle one day. And so when I think about bitcoin, 434 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: like obviously Satoshi Nakamoto in the Bitcoin white Paper said 435 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 1: that it's a peer to peer electronic cash, and that's 436 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: what it was designed for. But it's a new set 437 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: of building blocks that allows us to build all types 438 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: of new things that maybe aren't what the original creator 439 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: intended them for, right, And so we have this censorship 440 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: resistant database, you know if you call it that, a 441 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: time chains as he called it. And what can we 442 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: do with that? Well, certainly money is the killer application, 443 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: but like what Jack Dorsey's kind of Web five, we're 444 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: like hashing a decentralized identifier I D into it. Well, 445 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: that's that's interesting. We didn't think about that now, like 446 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: an ordinal subscription, which to your point of NFT seems 447 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: kind of silly, but certainly throughout history putting a Bible 448 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: in there could have been very beneficial. Or three D 449 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: printed guns would be very powerful in a country where 450 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: you need it. So do you kind of look at 451 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 1: it like that? Like maybe it grows out of you know, 452 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: money being the first killer application, but now it's like 453 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: building block we can build all these new things on. 454 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: I mean one hundred percent, yeah, absolutely, I mean it's 455 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: the Internet of money. It is a database, it is 456 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: an economic you know, unbelievable force, and that is it's 457 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: sort of you know again major principle layer one. But yeah, 458 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: I mean there's so many applications you can build when 459 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: you have a you know, a database system that economically 460 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 1: incentivizes you to retain the immutability of the chain and 461 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: propagate it to everybody and propagate transactions. You know, there's 462 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: an economic incentive of storing those gigabytes on your node, 463 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: and I think you know, there's an that's an interesting 464 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 1: angle to the ordinal story is that it's sort of 465 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: a psy op to get all of these coiners to 466 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: run full nodes right here they are. They have economic 467 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 1: incentive to never prune the witness data because that's where 468 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 1: all their precious JPEGs are. So you know, we've seen 469 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 1: thousands of nodes spin up in the last six weeks 470 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: because of tooling. Yeah, we're seeing a huge increase in 471 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: node count. And again, all of these people are economically 472 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 1: incentivized to store that data forever. So it's an interesting wrinkle. 473 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: And you know, bitcoin teaches us so much, we're all 474 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: sort of I like to look at it as a database, 475 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: of course, but also, you know a game. You know, 476 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: it's this big economic game playing out everywhere. Nation states 477 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: are playing, central banks are playing an individuals, sovereign individuals 478 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: alike or playing and it really it's these rules are 479 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: just as much playing us as we're playing them. And 480 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: I think this is just another interesting wrinkle where the 481 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: protocol has evolved via tooling UM. And now we have 482 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: a whole different set of users that are upholding this 483 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: system that we all want to see the world uphold 484 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: for you know, sound economic reasons, and they're doing it 485 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 1: for a completely different reason, um, but they're achieving the 486 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: same goal of you know, network security. UM. So yeah, 487 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: bitcoin is a is a living thing, uh, and it's 488 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: really not about us, and it's use case will always 489 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,199 Speaker 1: be determined by the market. And right now there's a 490 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: market for that stuff, um, and an economic incentive to 491 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: you know, do do what's best for the network. So 492 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: also I also think about you know being you know, 493 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: the first killer at being money. But then what is money? Right? 494 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: Robert Breedlove as a podcast all he does talk about 495 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: what is money? Right, Like what is money? And everyone 496 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: thinks they understand, Oh, you know, I got my wallet 497 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 1: right here, I got a dollar bill in there, I 498 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: got money in my bank, and we think we know 499 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: what money is. But really what is money is a 500 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 1: very deep and profound question to ask. And if you 501 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: were to say, well, money is just communication, money communicates value, right, well, 502 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 1: then so would the Bible or three D printed gun 503 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: schematics be value as well. So if all money does, right, 504 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: if you boil it down, like if you think about it, well, 505 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 1: instead of having a dollar bill, I have a sat 506 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 1: or you know, a fraction of a bitcoin and I 507 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: transfer that to make payment. But if you think about 508 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: it from a bigger angle where money is actually just 509 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: communication and there's all different types. And if you think 510 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: about that, like think about how even communication has changed. 511 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: I would imagine if you went back to the eighties, Well, information, 512 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,959 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I guess there's books, you know, 513 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: I have the library. I can go to the library 514 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 1: and I get there's you know, three nightly news channels 515 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: and two morning new paper newspapers. That's information Today. A 516 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: kid on a beach and VG can post a picture 517 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: and I get all that information of what the weather's like, 518 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 1: what the waves are like. Right, And so even what 519 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: we know is information change. So I think what we 520 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: think of communication and value is going to change. And 521 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 1: so it's fun to think about. Although humans are no 522 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: good at imagine in the future, because all we can 523 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: think about is better versions of what we have today. 524 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: Without those building blocks, we don't know where those things 525 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,719 Speaker 1: will go. I want to get into a little bit 526 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,360 Speaker 1: of a bigger conversation. We'll get into the dollar itself 527 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: and what we consider money as today. Anyway, if you're 528 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 1: just tuning in, you're listening to the Mark Moshow. Of course, 529 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 1: we talk about the decentralized revolution, talking about how the 530 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: world is changing mostly through the lens of politics, finance, 531 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: and technology, and the technology is bitcoin. I'm joined by 532 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 1: Mark Goodwin, director of print editorial at Bitcoin Magazine, and 533 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,400 Speaker 1: we are going to come back and we'll talk from 534 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,199 Speaker 1: a higher level. We'll talk about the bitcoin and the 535 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: dollar and what the future holds with that. So it's 536 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: gonna be a fun conversation. You don't want to miss it. 537 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 1: We'll be back with that and more in a minute. 538 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: Don't go away, We'll be right back. All right, Welcome back. 539 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: If you just tune in, you are listening to the 540 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: Mark Moss Show talking about bitcoin with Mark Goodwin. He 541 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: is the director of print editorial Bitcoin magazine. You should 542 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: definitely check it out Bitcoin magazine dot com and uh man, 543 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: We've covered a lot. If you've missed any of it, 544 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:22,439 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna go back and repeat it, but you 545 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: can catch it on the podcast. Just search the Mark 546 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: Mos show on the podcast or go to the Market 547 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: Disruptors YouTube channel and you can watch it on demand 548 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: over there. Um, you know, Mark, I know, you wrote 549 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 1: another article albeit a while ago, talking about, um, you know, 550 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: a bitcoin dollar as you called it, and you were 551 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: referencing it kind of in reference to the Petro dollar, 552 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: where the dollar has been backed by you know, by 553 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia and the petro or the oil that they have, 554 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: they're basically pricing everything in dollars, and I think you 555 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: were kind of comparing that to like this bitcoin dollar. 556 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: Why don't you frame that up for a little bit. Yeah, no, 557 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: I think you did a great job. Yeah, it's it's 558 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,479 Speaker 1: kind of an allegory to the petro dollars. So this 559 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: idea that you know, the US, in order to fight 560 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: inflationary effects of an increased monetary supply from the Nixon 561 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: Shock at seventy one going off the gold standard, they 562 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: you know, did a whole bunch of military imperialism in 563 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: the Middle East and established an economic monopoly on petrol 564 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: and oil and basically created a a you know, a 565 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: furnace to shove all of this you know, dollar demand. 566 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: Because all of these industrial nations in Asia and Europe, 567 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: you know, needed needed oil, so they were able to 568 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: sort of offshore their debt and inflationary effects. M. And 569 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: so the argument now, this kind of this thesis, and 570 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: I've expanded it actually into a book that's coming out 571 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: called the Bitcoin Dollar, sort of this idea that the 572 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: US government is actually incentivized due to this runaway debt 573 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: service you know, inflation that's happening, UM to find a 574 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: demand elastic commodity and energy commodity uh to to peg 575 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: itself too. And so we're seeing right now sort of 576 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: a recreation of that mechanism of on ramps and off 577 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: ramps to bitcoin being predominantly US dollar denominated, huge USD pairings, 578 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: you know, huge volume on these USD pairings for bitcoin UM. 579 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: You know, strong majority of of of volume is coming 580 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: from you know KYC, you know dollar account inputs. UM. 581 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: So that's sort of the argument that, you know, there's 582 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: an economic incentive for you know, the US to tether 583 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: themselves uh to uh to bitcoin UM. And I think 584 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: what we're seeing now with this regulatory regime and this 585 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: post FTX sort of stable coin war, UM. You know, 586 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: we're seeing the kingmakers being made. Um, we're seeing the 587 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: regulatory regime sort of choosing who gets to be the 588 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: issuers of these, you know, the oncoming billions and billions, 589 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: if not trillions of stable coins that will be issued 590 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: when you know, private banks start buying US treasuries and 591 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: start issuing stable coins. So I really think the dollar 592 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: and bitcoin are going to be the huge players, certainly, 593 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: you know, for the rest of the year and probably 594 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: for the rest of the decade, and possibly even even 595 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: a little bit more than that. Um, So I'm really 596 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: focusing on the dollar, learning a lot about it, and yeah, 597 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: I think bitcoin and the dollar are just very strange bedfellows. 598 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: And uh yeah, there's a lot, a lot to dig 599 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: into there for sure. Yeah, it's interesting. I covered earlier 600 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: the story that you know, everybody kind of in the 601 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: bitcoin community is kind of freaking out because the US 602 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: you know, is potentially looks like they're about to go 603 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: dump a bunch of bitcoin into the market. They trend 604 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: they had a billion dollars worth of bitcoin that they 605 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: transferred over to uh coin base coin base wallets and 606 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: some of the government wallets as well, and so investors 607 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: are thinking that they're probably gonna go dump that, which 608 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: historically they haven't done that. They've sold it off in 609 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: auctions and no smart seller whatever go just dump that 610 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: into the market anyway, unless they potentially wanted to come down. 611 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: So it's probably not the case. But then I was 612 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: looking up some of the but you know, we don't 613 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: know for sure, but some of the government other government's 614 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: holdings of bitcoin, and the US government has quite a 615 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: bit of bitcoin on the books, but some nations like 616 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: China look like they have like two hundred thousand bitcoin 617 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: on their books, and it's sort of like kind of like, uh, well, 618 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: Jason Laurie has been talking about, you know, the strategic 619 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: interests of a nation to acquire bitcoin. I think he's 620 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: talking about it more from a mining standpoint, but that's 621 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: more of a on its books. I saw Bitcoin Magazine 622 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: had Bitcoin Magazine on Twitter had put out something about 623 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: the by dead Men proposing a thirty percent tax on 624 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: electricity used for bitcoin mining. So I don't know which 625 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: way they want to go here. It's like, on one hand, 626 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: it would make sense to have it control it even 627 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: you know, maybe if there's a small chance it takes off, 628 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: maybe we should kind of have it. But I mean 629 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: if they put a thirty percent tax on it, I mean, 630 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: it's just going to go overseas again somewhere, right. I 631 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: mean that's the economic interest, right or it or it 632 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: allows you know them to create uh, you know, loopholes 633 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: for you know, the companies and personnel and DC interest. 634 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: You know. Again, this is the US dollar system is 635 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: all about retaining purchasing economy and making as much money 636 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: for the contillionaires as possible. I mean, that's we've seen 637 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: this time and time again anytime there's debt issues or 638 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: inflation issues up up pops of war, uprises, taxes, uh, 639 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: you know, And here we are, and we're at actually 640 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: sort of an economic breaking point where now are just 641 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: the interest on our debt service in a year is 642 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: now actually over our military spending. So we're actually spending 643 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: more money to pay for our dollar than we are 644 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: to pay for the military. That's you know, holding up 645 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: the dollar theoretically. So we're in sort of uncharted territories. 646 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: We're a road runner that's run off the cliff. So yeah, 647 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: we'll see who gets made king and who gets to 648 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: sort of run the retail CBDC. I guess, yeah, I 649 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: hadn't really thought about it like that. I mean, and 650 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: obviously I should have, but I mean to your point, right, 651 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: it's king making you said that earlier, picking and choosing winners. 652 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: So everybody has to pay a thirty percent tax except 653 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: for you guys over here. You don't have to or 654 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: we don't have to sort of a thing, so that 655 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,879 Speaker 1: that could be interesting, you know. But to the point 656 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,280 Speaker 1: that you made too about running kind of the government 657 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: off the cliff, it's like the FED is trying to well, 658 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: not trying to do. They have raised rates higher and 659 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 1: faster than in time in history, trying to crush inflation. 660 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: But they haven't been able to crush inflation, but they 661 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: have managed to crush the government, and the government's broke. 662 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:55,919 Speaker 1: And of the thirty one and a half tillion dollars 663 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: of debt, thirty percent of that has to be refinanced 664 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 1: in the next year at the new rates. Fifty percent 665 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: of it has to be refinanced in the next three 666 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: years at the new rate, and so that's going to 667 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: push the interest payments up. You know, who knows in 668 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: the in the it's right now an average of one 669 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: point seven percent that would put it. You know, it's 670 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,759 Speaker 1: different different rates at different maturities, but it pushes it 671 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: between a three and a half to a five and 672 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: a half percent number, which could potentially take us from 673 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: about a nine hundred trillion dollars I'm sorry, nine hundred 674 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 1: billion dollars of interest expense to one point eight trillion 675 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: yep an interest expense. And that's a big problem, yep. 676 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we're bitcoiners, you know, compounding annual 677 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: growth rate, you know, a little kgar. You don't want 678 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: that running running wild and your debt, you know, so, 679 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: and that's exactly what's happening. So yeah, to your point, 680 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 1: I mean, you know we're gonna have to deal with 681 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 1: that mathematical reality. Um, I don't know when that will happen, 682 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,959 Speaker 1: but obviously we will need to create money to pay 683 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: that debt. There's no way we can make enough off 684 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,240 Speaker 1: tax receipts. Even with the insanity of the capital gains 685 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: threats that they're saying in the last couple of days, 686 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: they won't even come close. So printing will have to 687 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,240 Speaker 1: come at some point. You know, we'll see what happens 688 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: till we get there, but it's going to be a 689 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: hell of a red Yeah. Well, and the other problem 690 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 1: is that the expense column is going up, right, the 691 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: interest on the DAD is going up. The spending is 692 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: also going up, but the tax receipts are going down. 693 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 1: So to your point, they want to put in all 694 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: these new tax things because the tax treets are going 695 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: down because the FED is crushing demand by making everybody poor, 696 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: and then everyone's poor, so then there's no taxes and 697 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,440 Speaker 1: then the tax So in California corporate tax shereets are 698 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: down twenty percent. Statewide is down forty percent. In the 699 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: US it's down nine percent. That's a big drop. And 700 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: then I saw this chart last week I was looking 701 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: at and it showed no matter what the tax rate is, 702 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: the government typically gets the taxes to come out to 703 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 1: about nineteen percent of GDP. So tax rates up, tax 704 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: rates down, the share is about the same. So the 705 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: goal should try to be to get the GDP bigger, 706 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: not just the taxhare bigger. But it's going to be 707 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: interesting to see how that plays out. If you're just 708 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: tune in, you're listening to the Mark Moss Show, of 709 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: course each and every week, talking about the decentralized Revolution. 710 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: I've been talking to Mark Goodwin, he's the director of 711 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: Print editorial at Bitcoin Magazine. Definitely check that out Bitcoin 712 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: magazine dot com. Give him a follow on Twitter at 713 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: Mark Goodwin Underscore I n of course I'm at one, 714 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: Mark Moss. That's what we got for today. Hopefully enjoyed 715 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: it shoot as much. Let me know thanks for listening.