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Speaker 3: Microsoft workers who put this element up on the screen
Speaker 3: have told their bosses at the company that they're no
Speaker 3: longer going to work on Israeli tech now. Microsoft is
Speaker 3: heavily involved, as drop site has reported, with Israel's genocide
Speaker 3: and Gaza, providing enormous amounts of cloud computing and other technological.
Speaker 4: Support for the assault on Gaza.
Speaker 3: The amount of money that the industry the Israeli Ministry
Speaker 3: of Defense has sent to Microsoft has massively increased since
Speaker 3: October twenty twenty three, According to internal company.
Speaker 4: Documents that we reviewed.
Speaker 3: And reported on This is an escalation from Microsoft workers
Speaker 3: who are now drawing a line and saying that they
Speaker 3: will just simply not work on this account. Now that
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that they Microsoft won't be able to find
Speaker 3: workers inside the company who will do it, but the
Speaker 3: publicity around it and the difficulty around it raises the
Speaker 3: stakes for Western companies who are continuing to be so
Speaker 3: intimately involved in what the world is now seeing of
Speaker 3: not just people getting mowed down at aid distribution sites,
Speaker 3: but dying in droves of starvation and amount nutrition.
Speaker 4: You think this as it's.
Speaker 5: At all, Yeah, I think it's been resonating.
Speaker 6: I mean, Crystal and I covered what happened with the
Speaker 6: church and also the Christian village in the West Bank.
Speaker 3: The the Idea have just announced, by the way, that
Speaker 3: they finished their review of their the bombing of the
Speaker 3: church and.
Speaker 4: That it was an accident. It was an accident, so
Speaker 4: that's all resolved.
Speaker 5: Good. Yeah, glad we got to the bottom of that one.
Speaker 6: But uh, it's that was a real shift, and I
Speaker 6: think whenever a shift like that happens, you start to
Speaker 6: see more focus on every sort of subsequent you know,
Speaker 6: people take more seriously when they see It's.
Speaker 3: A good point because it just it you have a
Speaker 3: new prism for how you're viewing what's going on right roads.
Speaker 4: Trust.
Speaker 6: So if everyone's telling you this is Pollywood and it's
Speaker 6: all you know, staged fake, and that's your predisposition to
Speaker 6: when you see these awful, awful images that those arguments
Speaker 6: that had been sort of blocked you from taking seriously
Speaker 6: the images and the claims of suffering, then you have
Speaker 6: those arguments against that have so much less credibility. When
Speaker 6: you have one experience like that, it changes, like yeah,
Speaker 6: like you said, it's a new prism. And I've noticed
Speaker 6: that in the last week, I think.
Speaker 3: And speaking of stage and faked, we didn't talk about
Speaker 3: this a few days ago when it was released, but
Speaker 3: it's it's a fast, fascinating development. The IDF put out
Speaker 3: this extraordinary short propaganda film of them for forty three
Speaker 3: seconds not shooting civilians. Let's roll this clip and then
Speaker 3: and then discuss.
Speaker 4: If you're listening.
Speaker 3: What you're seeing, are you know, hundreds of hungry people
Speaker 3: kind of mobbing an AID truck that's coming in through
Speaker 3: northern Gaza and you're hearing commanders tell the soldier IDF soldiers.
Speaker 4: Don't shoot, don't shoot, And at least.
Speaker 3: Four times in this short clip they say don't shoot,
Speaker 3: don't shoot, don't shoot, And then the people who did
Speaker 3: not get shot kind of applaud the IDF for not
Speaker 3: shooting them. This was then posted by the Israeli military
Speaker 3: as evidence of their most moralness.
Speaker 5: So this is the IDEAF posted that video.
Speaker 4: IDF posted that video.
Speaker 3: It doesn't take a whole lot of deconstruction to start
Speaker 3: to raise questions about it. It's like, Okay, congratulations, you
Speaker 3: found forty three seconds of your folks not shooting unarmed
Speaker 3: civilians who were seeking AID. What is going on with
Speaker 3: your rules of engagement that officers had to repeatedly order
Speaker 3: troops not to fire unarmed people, Like if I've been
Speaker 3: critical of the US military my entire life, basically, but
Speaker 3: there's no world in which US troops looking at a
Speaker 3: group of people who are mobbing an AID truck and
Speaker 3: kind of taking the flower off the AID truck would
Speaker 3: have to be told not to shoot. None of the
Speaker 3: soldiers there are under any risk whatsoever. Like it's clear
Speaker 3: what the people want. The people want the food that's
Speaker 3: on the truck. There would be no other army in
Speaker 3: the world would think, oh, we should shoot at these people,
Speaker 3: so that they had to keep saying, Hey, we're filming here, guys,
Speaker 3: don't shoot, like we're doing a propaganda film here. Can
Speaker 3: you please? Can you guys please not shoot the civilians.
Speaker 3: It reminds me of the one that the GHF put
Speaker 3: out several weeks ago, where it's a guy speaking to
Speaker 3: camera for like seven seconds talking about how effectively they're
Speaker 3: distributing aid and how there's no violence and this is
Speaker 3: an amazing accomplishment, a tremendous success, is what Tammy Bruce,
Speaker 3: a State department called it yesterday.
Speaker 4: At the very end of the clip, you.
Speaker 3: Hear gunfire from There's no Hamas anywhere near these things.
Speaker 4: That's why they're fifth.
Speaker 3: They're like fifteen kilometers away from any populated area. And
Speaker 3: so it's like, and that's the take they posted, like
Speaker 3: they couldn't even get a seven second clip where they
Speaker 3: weren't shooting in the background. So this this was really
Speaker 3: striking me. It made me think, like, so I was
Speaker 3: I did the show yesterday, so I came, you know,
Speaker 3: from out northwest DC down to the studio here that
Speaker 3: also went home. I saw a lot of people on
Speaker 3: my way in and my way out. I didn't shoot
Speaker 3: any of them, none.
Speaker 5: The most moral television hosts in the real world.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I saw a bunch of people this morning.
Speaker 5: Some of them were hungry, probably.
Speaker 4: Probably not, maybe maybe a few were, like.
Speaker 5: To fine hungry.
Speaker 4: Yes, I didn't shoot.
Speaker 3: I have not shot anybody all day long, noble peace price,
Speaker 3: and I don't think I will shoot anybody for the
Speaker 3: rest of the day.
Speaker 6: All Right, I'm gonna come next week with a letter
Speaker 6: nominating you for the no.
Speaker 3: I appreciate there's a lot of stiff competition this year. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so my chances are not are not very good. So
Speaker 3: this is the this is the state that they're in
Speaker 3: with their with their propaganda. Here's forty three seconds in
Speaker 3: which we didn't shoot unarmed people.
Speaker 4: Now, now a warning.
Speaker 3: If you're not following this closely, A lot of this
Speaker 3: might be might be new to you and might be graphic,
Speaker 3: and maybe you want to scroll through this if you
Speaker 3: don't want.
Speaker 4: To see it.
Speaker 5: It is very graphic.
Speaker 3: But the the intensity of the violence is just exploding.
Speaker 3: So we can put up put up C three here.
Speaker 4: This is all.
Speaker 3: This is all stuff within the last you know, twenty
Speaker 3: four hours. There is this is a strike on a
Speaker 3: home that killed fifteen U civilians, including.
Speaker 4: Enormous number, an enormous number of children.
Speaker 3: You've had an increasing number of strikes where you're seeing.
Speaker 4: The Yeah, you don't even want to look at that.
Speaker 3: You're seeing fetus is blown out of pregnant women's bodies.
Speaker 3: These are toddlers who were born after October seventh, you know,
Speaker 3: who have known nothing but this. Here's a man who
Speaker 3: died of starvation. Ah, well, over one hundred people now
Speaker 3: have died of starvation. And here's a clip that was
Speaker 3: circulating just two guys just sitting out on the pier,
Speaker 3: just bombed and killed just for sitting on the pier, and.
Speaker 4: That's it. And then on filming their own murders.
Speaker 3: So like, we keep hearing that they're getting closer and
Speaker 3: closer to us, fees fire, but an enormous number, an
Speaker 3: enormous number of the people and guys are now kind
Speaker 3: of beyond the point of no return.
Speaker 4: A reporter on one where we need to post this.
Speaker 4: You can see it on my Twitter feed if if
Speaker 4: you want.
Speaker 3: A paramedic was was hit yesterday. I hope he's still alive.
Speaker 3: He was alive as of yesterday according to medical sources.
Speaker 3: And you can see him. So he's taken into the
Speaker 3: hospital with getting getting an auction, and you compare his
Speaker 3: picture to a picture of him from a couple of
Speaker 3: years before. He's just shed so much weight. He's just
Speaker 3: he's just skin and bone. And these are and the medics.
Speaker 3: We're getting food much longer than the regular population. Only
Speaker 3: in the last couple of days. At Nasser Hospital, for instance,
Speaker 3: did the hospital staff stop getting food. The patients stopped
Speaker 3: getting food a long time ago. Now it's it's basically
Speaker 3: every person for themselves whatever, you know, whatever they could,
Speaker 3: you know, whatever they can find. So it's just going
Speaker 3: absolutely bananas now. Meanwhile, they cut off internet to darry Oballa,
Speaker 3: which is the remaining kind of severe infrastructure left in Gaza.
Speaker 3: It's actually where Abu Baker grew up and was from.
Speaker 3: It's where his family is, and there's a lot of
Speaker 3: where a lot of the UN and AID organizations are
Speaker 3: our house. There's nowhere else for them to operate at
Speaker 3: this point. So they've now launched an incursion into dary Bala.
Speaker 3: They cut off internet to it. They're bom bombing the
Speaker 3: hell out of it. Sayah Al KUDS, which is a
Speaker 3: resistance faction put out as a statement that you can
Speaker 3: put put up this next element that they've now lost
Speaker 3: contact with Rome Breslovski, who is one of the twenty
Speaker 3: one of the twenty remaining hostages assumed to be twenty
Speaker 3: remaining hostages who are still alive. The you know, Almas
Speaker 3: had warned and actually IDF commanders have have warned like
Speaker 3: if we if we continue to assault these particular areas,
Speaker 3: we're very worried that we're going to kill more hostages.
Speaker 3: They've already killed an untold number uncount uncounted number at
Speaker 3: this point, but a significant number of hostages. And so
Speaker 3: now there's this reporting that, uh, they've lost contact with
Speaker 3: with Rome. So uh, this is this is in the
Speaker 3: context of Whitcoff heading to you know, there's reports that
Speaker 3: he's going to be heading over there as they're trying
Speaker 3: to finalize an agreement. There's uh are there's you know,
Speaker 3: the negotiations heavily are around aid and how aid would
Speaker 3: be distributed, because if this aid system continues, then the
Speaker 3: death by starvation and the slaughter at all of these
Speaker 3: aid distribution sides would continuing.
Speaker 4: And Hamas is saying we can't we can't agree to that.
Speaker 3: Yesterday, Tammy Bruce, this is an incredible moment of the
Speaker 3: States part where he said this is a it's a
Speaker 3: tremendous success, like the gods humanitarian Fauscion Foundation, aid distribution.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 3: And one of the reporters like, well, the result of
Speaker 3: the success is starvation. Like that's that's your that's your
Speaker 3: definition of success. It's like.
Speaker 4: Like before people weren't dying of starvation. Now they are.
Speaker 3: And I'm not sure under what terms that counts as
Speaker 3: a success.
Speaker 6: That the ceasefire timeline is interesting because it seems to
Speaker 6: me like and you've covered this closely. I think we've
Speaker 6: talked about it, that the escalation correlates the closer a
Speaker 6: ceasefire appears to be politically, the closer the Trump administration
Speaker 6: suggests they are to a ceasefire, like oneever wit Cough
Speaker 6: is negotiating, it seems like you end up.
Speaker 4: It's like the empty the warehouses of bombs on. Yeah,
Speaker 4: so I don't.
Speaker 3: Hope hopefully we're going to get a reprieve to this soon,
Speaker 3: but you know, too late for a lot of people.
Speaker 3: So let's also take a trip down memory lane. This
Speaker 3: is crazy the nineteen nineties, Benjamin Naho, Bill Clinton, and
Speaker 3: Monica Lewinsky stick around this one. So, in a scandal
Speaker 3: that has been largely lost to contemporary memory, Israeli Prime
Speaker 3: Minister Benjamin Netnah who was alleged to have blackmailed then
Speaker 3: President Bill Clinton by revealing to him that Israel had
Speaker 3: collected tapes of phone sex calls between the forty second
Speaker 3: president and White House intern Monica Lewinsky. The story is
Speaker 3: worth revisiting amid allegations that Jeffrey Epstein was involved in
Speaker 3: a long running Israeli blackmail operation of his own. So
Speaker 3: Clinton met with Netnaho in the Oval Office in February
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven. Subsequently, according to testimony Lewinsky gave to
Speaker 3: the Special Council's Office, Clinton secretary Betty Curry reached out
Speaker 3: to Lewinsky to invite her to an Oval Office meeting,
Speaker 3: telling her Clinton quote had something important to tell her
Speaker 3: unquote it would turn out to be their final sexual encounter.
Speaker 3: But Clinton also used the opportunity to tell her that
Speaker 3: a quote foreign embassy had tapped his phone and recorded
Speaker 3: their conversation. Lewinsky said Clinton did not specify which embassy,
Speaker 3: though The meeting with Lewinsky came the month after his
Speaker 3: meeting with net Yahoo. The special Prosecutor's report was far
Speaker 3: more concerned with Lewinsky's claim of the sexual encounter that
Speaker 3: day because it contradicted Clinton's claim that they had had
Speaker 3: only one encounter that year, than they were with the
Speaker 3: fact that a foreign government was spying on the President
Speaker 3: and letting him know about it. The prosecutor was also
Speaker 3: interested in Clinton's response, namely that he proposed cover stories,
Speaker 3: these recover stories that the two could employ if they
Speaker 3: were confronted with the tapes. Clinton suggested the pairs say
Speaker 3: they knew they were under surveillance and the phone sex
Speaker 3: was a quote put on for whoever was listening. It's
Speaker 3: an awfully flimsy idea, but look, he was guilty. The
Speaker 3: man did not have much to work with now. In April,
Speaker 3: Netnyahuo and Clinton met again for a quote private visit
Speaker 3: on a Saturday. Then in May nineteen ninety seven, Clinton
Speaker 3: again had Curry invite Lewinsky to the White House. During
Speaker 3: that visit, he broke up with her. Lewinsky testified the
Speaker 3: next fall. So this is fall of nineteen ninety eight,
Speaker 3: Clinton hosted Netnahu and Power sending leader Yaser Arafat for
Speaker 3: a summit at Wye River, Maryland. Toward the end of
Speaker 3: the summit, at seven am, after a long night of
Speaker 3: final negotiations and handshakes, Nenyawho approached Clinton privately to demand
Speaker 3: the release of convicted Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard, long a
Speaker 3: cause to leb of the Israeli far right. That's according
Speaker 3: to reporting the time from The New York Times. Now
Speaker 3: Netnah who brought up the sex tapes in the context
Speaker 3: of the Pollard demand. According to subsequent reporting by Washington
Speaker 3: Examiner editor Daniel harper in his book Clinton Inc. The
Speaker 3: Audacious Rebuilding of a Political Machine, he writes, quote, not
Speaker 3: wanting to directly threaten the powerful American President, a crucial
Speaker 3: Israeli ally, Clinton was told that the Israeli government had
Speaker 3: thrown the tapes away, but the very mention of them
Speaker 3: was enough to constitute a form of blackmail. Halpern reported
Speaker 3: the talks almost broke down as CIA chief George Tennant
Speaker 3: told Clinton he would resign on the spot if Clinton
Speaker 3: agreed to the terms. So instead, Clinton agreed to quote
Speaker 3: review Pollard's case, He did not release him Pollard was
Speaker 3: eventually freed in twenty fifteen under the Obama administration. Now,
Speaker 3: on the last day of his first term, Trump pardoned
Speaker 3: Pollard's handler back in Israel. Pollard is now an outspoken
Speaker 3: supporter of extremist national security minister Ben Givier It's Amar
Speaker 3: Ben Gavier and is called for the full ethnic cleansing
Speaker 3: of Gaza. I don't know, Emily, what do you think?
Speaker 3: What a Netna hotel? Bill Clinton? I'm so curious it's
Speaker 3: another foreign embassy that this could be.
Speaker 6: So this is very casually in the book of Daniel Helper, right,
Speaker 6: who is I.
Speaker 4: Mean, you probably see about him as a reporter.
Speaker 5: Well, I was even to ask you, I.
Speaker 6: Mean, he's his sort of right of Senator bush Era.
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't want to get this wrong, but that's.
Speaker 4: My doing a lot of these Clinton in style, yeah.
Speaker 6: Right, and then was covering foreign policy like during that
Speaker 6: time period. I remember Daniel Helper a lot from the
Speaker 6: kind of blogging years, if that makes sense, like the
Speaker 6: books your blogging years.
Speaker 5: But this is very casually in the book.
Speaker 3: And there was there was another book it was called
Speaker 3: Gideon Spies in ninety eight published in the UK that
Speaker 3: reported the same thing that it was that there, that
Speaker 3: that Yahoo that end that it was Israel that had
Speaker 3: gotten these tapes because they basically whated. Like back then
Speaker 3: it was probably pretty maybe even easier than it is now.
Speaker 3: A lot of people were learning about this affair like
Speaker 3: it was like it was everywhere before it was reported
Speaker 3: by Drudge and then by Newsweek. It was the talk
Speaker 3: of like elite Washington. That's how like you know, Linda
Speaker 3: Tripp was telling book agents publishers.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Lucy and Goldberg.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Jonah Goldberg's mom, she's telling people and like.
Speaker 4: You know, actually, what's his name? George Conway?
Speaker 3: Right, he like he was who's now there Istance Democrat
Speaker 3: Guy Kelly and Conway's ex husband, and and.
Speaker 4: Coulter and like this whole right wing world.
Speaker 6: Brett Kavanaugh was working with Ken Starr. George Conway was
Speaker 6: in that group. Colter was defending Paula Jones and.
Speaker 3: Paula Jones lawyers like learned about Monica way early and
Speaker 3: they so in other words, a lot of people in
Speaker 3: Washington knew about the Monica affair while it was still ongoing.
Speaker 3: So if you were a foreign embassy that that learned
Speaker 3: this and it would not have been hard for israelin others, not.
Speaker 4: Just them, to learn about it.
Speaker 3: It would then not be hard for you to go
Speaker 3: and tap Monica Wincy's phone. You don't you don't have
Speaker 3: to tap the White House at that point. You just
Speaker 3: get Monica's phone line.
Speaker 5: Which is way easier, of course.
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, and then your boom, You're going to pick up.
Speaker 4: All of these calls that continued to happen. How do
Speaker 4: you like? How do you like Bill Clinton's cover story?
Speaker 4: We knew that we were being.
Speaker 3: Surveilled by a foreign government, so we decided to do
Speaker 3: fake sex tapes with an intern.
Speaker 6: I mean, I was gonna say, I think actually that
Speaker 6: may so. First of all, I think it gives it
Speaker 6: more credibility that it's casually in the book, and I
Speaker 6: think Daniel Helper is like sort of broadly pretty pro Israel.
Speaker 5: I have to go back and look.
Speaker 6: But I think that's like sort of baked into a
Speaker 6: lot of the coverage that Daniel Helper has done.
Speaker 5: But I think the fact that this.
Speaker 6: Is sort of casually just inserted into the narrative of
Speaker 6: the book lends credibility to it, and people aren't challenging it.
Speaker 6: It's the same thing with the alex Acosta quote that
Speaker 6: Vicky Ward put in her story that barely raised an
Speaker 6: eyebrow at the time, and Acrosta, there weren't all other
Speaker 6: people from those meetings in the Senate coming out and
Speaker 6: saying this never happened. So anyway, all that that's like
Speaker 6: a bit of a tangent, but it also makes you
Speaker 6: look differently on the way Clinton vociferously denied the affair,
Speaker 6: because it's possible that they were really serious about this
Speaker 6: defense for foreign policy.
Speaker 5: Reasons that they were.
Speaker 6: They had motives beyond just protecting Clinton, that they were
Speaker 6: like also dealing with the potential foreign policy consequences of
Speaker 6: this entire thing being known to an ally is crazy.
Speaker 3: By fall of ninety eight, when the Wide River things
Speaker 3: happen Eastern Shore, I remember when that when that was
Speaker 3: happening eastern Shore of Maryland, the world kind.
Speaker 4: Of the public knew about all of this.
Speaker 3: So like the value, the value of that blackmail by
Speaker 3: then was much diminished by the fact that it was
Speaker 3: everywhere already. And then you had you had the midterms
Speaker 3: where Democrats overperformed despite all of this stuff, right, because
Speaker 3: when did he when did it all break? That he
Speaker 3: admitted it. I don't remember exactly what.
Speaker 6: Oh man, the like that he that's a good question.
Speaker 6: The timeline is important in this context. But yeah, I
Speaker 6: mean the whole thing this is August.
Speaker 3: Oh so he admitted in the grand jury testimony in
Speaker 3: August nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 5: But I don't think we knew that till ninety nine,
Speaker 5: didn't we.
Speaker 3: No, But then he knew it was going to leak,
Speaker 3: so they put it out immediately. Okay, yeah, I mean
Speaker 3: so by the time that Yahoo at why River is
Speaker 3: allegedly like blackmailing him with the tapes and telling him
Speaker 3: that and he's and it's an interesting phrasing that that
Speaker 3: he's alleged to have used, which is, hey, those tapes
Speaker 3: I mentioned like, don't worry, we destroyed them.
Speaker 4: It's like, oh, sure you did.
Speaker 3: So, but it's a way of you know, mentioned bringing
Speaker 3: them up. And of course I'm not threatening you. This
Speaker 3: is crazy, right, I would never do such a thing.
Speaker 6: Well, it's kind of like it's actually kind of like
Speaker 6: the Epstein Bill Gates email, which reportedly was you know,
Speaker 6: it was about the woman that Bill Gates had an
Speaker 6: affair with, like the professional poker player. I think she's
Speaker 6: a professional poker player that Bill Gates had an affair with,
Speaker 6: and Epstein basically sent Bill Gates an email being like, Hey,
Speaker 6: I think he asked for like some type of payment
Speaker 6: related to the not for like any sexual stuff, but
Speaker 6: like just a scholarship something like that, just to let
Speaker 6: Bill Gates know he knew about this woman with whom he.
Speaker 5: Had an affair.
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, you can't.
Speaker 6: And you know, is it a smoking gun. No, because
Speaker 6: it's not Hey, I'm blackmailing you. I know you had
Speaker 6: an affair, give me money for this, or it was
Speaker 6: like he had some charitable thing he wanted money quote
Speaker 6: unquote charitable thing he wanted Bill Gates to get money to.
Speaker 5: And so he's not saying blackmail. This is blackmail unless
Speaker 5: you give me this money.
Speaker 4: He's just saying, hey, I know, I know, yeah, I
Speaker 4: know about this thing.
Speaker 5: Many such cases, yeah, many such cases.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So and yeah, the part about the CIA is interesting too,
Speaker 3: like because this was a bipartisan thing at the time
Speaker 3: that the CIA and whether your Republican or Democrat were
Speaker 3: and it was I think it was under Reagan that
Speaker 3: they caught Pollard actually Jonathan Pollard's spy.
Speaker 4: They were absolutely.
Speaker 3: Committed to keeping him behind bars and not not releasing him.
Speaker 3: And it was when when Obama led him out in
Speaker 3: twenty fifteen, it was supposed like, you know, it's more
Speaker 3: like parole. Like you, He's served like thirty years or whatever.
Speaker 3: He's served like an enormous amount of sentence. Yeah, he's
Speaker 3: still very active in politics. He's even he's even like
Speaker 3: floated that he's going to run for Kannessen, you know,
Speaker 3: under the Bengavie banner.
Speaker 6: Basically, what the It's just this, It is so crazy
Speaker 6: how many like you can play six degrees of Monica
Speaker 6: Lewinsky with the politics at any given moment, or six
Speaker 6: degrees of like Clinton Lewinsky scandal at any given moment.
Speaker 6: I mean, it's just it's it still affects so many
Speaker 6: different things in so many ways.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely wild yep, really a moment. Yeah, crazy stuff, Yes, indeed.
Speaker 3: All right, Next, we're going to talk to Carolyn Feinstein,
Speaker 3: that's right, who was the wife of the guy who
Speaker 3: made the ice blocker. She worked for the UH basically
Speaker 3: the trustee office inside the Department of Justice overseeing bank
Speaker 3: like look basically as a bankruptcy fraud staffer, and she
Speaker 3: was canned by the Department of Justice due to her
Speaker 3: connection with her husband's ice blocker app.
Speaker 4: Let's talk to her about this. One of the.
Speaker 3: Things that the White House is most upset about is
Speaker 3: a new app called ice block which allows people to
Speaker 3: report ice agent sightings and then if you have that app,
Speaker 3: you're going to get an alert if you within five
Speaker 3: miles of one of these sightings. One of the odd
Speaker 3: consequences of their fury at this app is that they
Speaker 3: figured out that the wife of the app developer, Carolyn Feinstein,
Speaker 3: worked for a division of the Department of Justice, and
Speaker 3: they promptly fired her. So Carolyn Feinstein is joining us
Speaker 3: now to talk about this DAGA and this app. Carolyn,
Speaker 3: thanks so much for joining us. Can you start out
Speaker 3: by letting us know what were you doing for the
Speaker 3: Department of Justice.
Speaker 7: Well, thank you for having me With the Department of Justice.
Speaker 8: I was with a small program called the US Trustee Program,
Speaker 8: and I was an auditor for them, where we looked
Speaker 8: at fraud and abuse in the bankruptcy system. So my
Speaker 8: job was to look at cases and see if there
Speaker 8: were any places where they were not following the bankruptcy
Speaker 8: rules and follow up on that.
Speaker 6: Okay, and so help us understand a little bit the
Speaker 6: timeline as it pertains to you leaving that job over
Speaker 6: the last couple of weeks, so your husband develops the
Speaker 6: ice block app. At one point you disclose that you're
Speaker 6: getting death threats and the like to your employer, to
Speaker 6: the Department of Justice, and this all culminates in you
Speaker 6: being fired, being asked to leave.
Speaker 5: Tell us basically what happened.
Speaker 8: Sure, about three weeks ago, my husband, Joshua Aaron, was
Speaker 8: dxed and they released our personal address.
Speaker 7: Confidential information.
Speaker 8: So I preemptively contacted the Department of Justice stating, hey,
Speaker 8: there may be a threat here. I wanted to protect
Speaker 8: the department as much as I could.
Speaker 7: And after that, this was just this.
Speaker 8: Past week, Laura Lumer ducted me individually on x and.
Speaker 7: That was on Wednesday or Thursday. By Thursday, Laura.
Speaker 8: Lumer, according to Tom Homan on a different news channel,
Speaker 8: had contacted him and he had contacted the Department of
Speaker 8: Justice about me. This was Friday then that I received
Speaker 8: an email out of nowhere stating that my employment with
Speaker 8: the Department of Justice was terminated, effective immediately.
Speaker 7: But here's the thing about that. I wasn't just terminated.
Speaker 8: I was targeted, and I was targeted because of Joshua's
Speaker 8: involvement with the app.
Speaker 6: And as you say, it was the distinction between terminated
Speaker 6: and targeted.
Speaker 8: Terminated could be for any reason under the sun that
Speaker 8: is justifiable by the department or the government as a whole. Targeted,
Speaker 8: in my opinion is that I was sought out to
Speaker 8: be terminated because of the actions of my steps.
Speaker 3: And I think that that probably true. So let me
Speaker 3: ask it this way. And I don't want to sound insensitive.
Speaker 3: It seems like and I don't want to read into
Speaker 3: your own mind, but from your from your husband's perspective,
Speaker 3: Johshon's perspective, this this White House is utterly out of
Speaker 3: control and is engaging in, you know, actions that are
Speaker 3: deeply harmful to the community, such that he would design
Speaker 3: this app to protect people against the agents of this
Speaker 3: very government. If if that's and I believe I agree
Speaker 3: with him, like I.
Speaker 4: Think that his analysis is correct.
Speaker 3: But if that's the analysis going to that same government
Speaker 3: and saying, hey, FYI, my husband, you know, did this,
Speaker 3: did this app, and now we're getting threats. Just wanted
Speaker 3: to let you know so that you can be aware
Speaker 3: of my work schedule, and perhaps do something to protect me.
Speaker 3: U feels naive, like this is the government that is
Speaker 3: doing the thing that your husband clearly believes is wrong
Speaker 3: and evil, Like why, what would wouldn't you expect that
Speaker 3: same government then to be like, oh, you're married to him,
Speaker 3: well you're fired.
Speaker 8: I understand that sentiment, but I also have experienced and
Speaker 8: strongly believe our government is full of incredible, dedicated people.
Speaker 8: And when I worked for the US Trustee program, part
Speaker 8: of our mission describes transparency. We advocate for transparency from debtors,
Speaker 8: from creditors, from anyone involved. So as a part of
Speaker 8: that program, I want to practice what I preach, and
Speaker 8: so that's why I preemptively went to them. I also
Speaker 8: knew that I could go to that program, and as
Speaker 8: far as I was aware at the.
Speaker 7: Time these statements, that I was telling them they were
Speaker 7: going to protect me.
Speaker 8: There may be different factions, different portions of the administration
Speaker 8: that just things differently, But the people I've directly encountered
Speaker 8: within the federal government as a whole have been dedicated,
Speaker 8: just all around quality people. So no, I wouldn't have
Speaker 8: expected that from the people I've encountered directly.
Speaker 5: And you also explain this.
Speaker 6: I think you have minority shares in the company that
Speaker 6: holds the IP address for the app, and tell us
Speaker 6: about just tell us to what extent you may have
Speaker 6: had a financial stake in ice Block and then what
Speaker 6: your communication was with the DOJ about that.
Speaker 7: So this brings up a good point.
Speaker 8: One thing I'd like to mention is that when I
Speaker 8: received determination of a termination of employment letter, the reasons
Speaker 8: in that letter stated lack of candor during an internal inquiry,
Speaker 8: and that just in lay terms, is lying vio mission
Speaker 8: or leaving something out. Those reasons differed from the prepared
Speaker 8: statement Department of Justice released to the press, which included
Speaker 8: describing my relationship to the company that you're stating a
Speaker 8: minority share that had been previously disclosed to them, and
Speaker 8: then it also insinuated that somehow that relationship endangered the
Speaker 8: lives of ice officers and threatened law enforcement. So which
Speaker 8: is it? Why was I fired? Because those are two
Speaker 8: separate reasons.
Speaker 3: So yeah, basically, what the d DOJ is saying publicly
Speaker 3: is that you didn't That's what they're alluding to, that
Speaker 3: you didn't disclose that you had this minority share in
Speaker 3: the LLC that operates this. So you're saying that you did,
Speaker 3: and when did you disclose that to them?
Speaker 8: Right that I wouldn't be able to cite an exact date.
Speaker 8: I can just say in the past it has been disclosed.
Speaker 3: And so so if they had said, okay, well you
Speaker 3: did disclose it. Now you actually are a minority shareholder
Speaker 3: of an app that is intended to disrupt law enforcement,
Speaker 3: would that have been a justifiable reason for them to say, all,
Speaker 3: you're fired.
Speaker 7: To begin with that minority share.
Speaker 8: By the way, part of my position with the US
Speaker 8: Trustee was to investigate companies just to make sure everything's
Speaker 8: on the up and up. And as you're probably familiar,
Speaker 8: charters incorporation documents, that's a good twenty second search.
Speaker 7: With the Secretary of State.
Speaker 8: At any time, in addition to my prior disclosure, they
Speaker 8: had the ability to check with the State of Texas
Speaker 8: and pull those documents, say okay, here's the minority share
Speaker 8: that was never concealed.
Speaker 7: As for.
Speaker 8: Equating that to endangering law enforcement, endangering the people that
Speaker 8: are part of the government that I proudly worked for,
Speaker 8: I would never put those individuals or those pro in danger,
Speaker 8: nor did I have the ability to my work with
Speaker 8: the US Trustee Department was absolutely separate from anything involving
Speaker 8: immigration or immigration enforcement. I didn't have access to their files,
Speaker 8: I didn't have knowledge of their operations.
Speaker 7: I had no way to be involved in that.
Speaker 6: And what is so like your general response, because this
Speaker 6: is and you just made this point as well, you
Speaker 6: said it is insulting to me because I dedicated myself
Speaker 6: in my career to serving the people of the United States,
Speaker 6: and now the DJ is claiming I was attempting to
Speaker 6: harm some of them, and that's not true. There has
Speaker 6: been some targeting of ICE agents. So what is your
Speaker 6: response to the argument that an app like ice Block,
Speaker 6: and being at least a minority shareholder in a company
Speaker 6: that holds the iphs all of that, what is your
Speaker 6: response to the argument that this does make it easier
Speaker 6: for anybody who wants to harmon ice officer to harmon
Speaker 6: ice officer.
Speaker 8: Well, just to reiterate, I am not involved with the
Speaker 8: ice block app, but as a citizen, as someone who you.
Speaker 7: Know may encounter ice or other situations.
Speaker 8: This this ice Block app, as it's stated on their
Speaker 8: website and in the app, the intent is to inform,
Speaker 8: not obstruct the other applications that are similar like ways
Speaker 8: could serve the same function. So the apps themselves do
Speaker 8: not endanger anyone. People's actions, people's patients, and people's understanding
Speaker 8: of what's going on with ICE operations is what could
Speaker 8: change a situation.
Speaker 4: Is there any revenue coming from this app?
Speaker 7: Not a penny?
Speaker 8: Joshua Aaron does not want to profit from people's suffering,
Speaker 8: so he does not accept any funds.
Speaker 7: For this app.
Speaker 4: How much does it cost to run?
Speaker 6: Like?
Speaker 4: Is it an app like this fairly simple?
Speaker 3: Or is there is it now so widely use that
Speaker 3: there's some significant amount of kind of like cloud costs
Speaker 3: or whatever else is associated with running something like this.
Speaker 4: Do you have any sense there.
Speaker 7: Are costs involved? But I don't know what they are.
Speaker 3: And do you regret like agreeing to be a minority
Speaker 3: shareholder on it? I mean, like I said, I'm somebody
Speaker 3: that thinks that this app is good and we're a
Speaker 3: free country and if somebody wants to let their neighbor
Speaker 3: know that they saw an ICE agent down the street,
Speaker 3: they should be able to do that.
Speaker 4: But given what happened, was that a mistake?
Speaker 8: No? This company that I hold a minority interest in
Speaker 8: was formed years ago, and the purpose of it was
Speaker 8: actually to develop a healthcare application that's.
Speaker 7: Still in the works.
Speaker 8: When the ice clock app was developed and released, Apple
Speaker 8: requires a developer account, and the company already had a
Speaker 8: developer account with Apple, so that was used basically to
Speaker 8: save costs and out of convenienced you.
Speaker 3: Did you know, not to cause a argument at home,
Speaker 3: but did you know when God registered it that he
Speaker 3: used the LLC that you were affiliated with?
Speaker 7: I believe I was aware of that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, because my wife and I actually share an LLC,
Speaker 3: and I could imagine me going and just setting something
Speaker 3: up using it and her later being.
Speaker 4: Like, wait, you did what.
Speaker 5: I'm fired.
Speaker 7: You're probably familiar.
Speaker 3: Then.
Speaker 8: Part of the reason that I'd just taken ownership a
Speaker 8: small piece of that company is should anything unfortunately happen
Speaker 8: to Joshua, I have the ability to wind down operations,
Speaker 8: to close up shop without you know, involving more paperworking courts.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, I mean that's basically what we've got going
Speaker 4: on too. Yeah. But anyway, so.
Speaker 3: He probably told you you're not you don't quite remember.
Speaker 7: You are trying to start an argument?
Speaker 5: Is it's messy?
Speaker 4: I got it? Got it?
Speaker 3: Well, that argument already happened. If it happened, what's what's
Speaker 3: next for you?
Speaker 7: Bigger and better things. I am just exploring what those
Speaker 7: things will be right now.
Speaker 3: All right, Well, keep it, keep us updated. And the
Speaker 3: app seems like it's gating and gating in popularity, so
Speaker 3: I guess, and this probably only brings it more attention.
Speaker 3: And you know, Lumer's lumor probably boosted it by doing that.
Speaker 4: I would think, what do you think.
Speaker 8: The last I heard, there were almost a million users,
Speaker 8: So that really sounds like ever a crowdsourced app, it
Speaker 8: can really be put to good use in the community.
Speaker 4: Right well, Carolyn, thanks so much for joining us. Really
Speaker 4: appreciate it.
Speaker 7: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 4: Got it.
Speaker 3: Not the biggest deal here, But what do you think
Speaker 3: did he tell her that he was using the family
Speaker 3: I'll see.
Speaker 6: I'm more interested in when she told the Department of
Speaker 6: Justice that she had a minority share in the LLBA.
Speaker 5: I think is a pretty big question.
Speaker 6: Not that I'm aspiring her either way, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6: And to be honest, like I think, at the end
Speaker 6: of the day, if your boss, even if your boss
Speaker 6: is wrong, if your boss says we think this app
Speaker 6: is harming our ability to do our work. It seems
Speaker 6: inevitable that that's going to happen.
Speaker 5: Now, whether the.
Speaker 6: App in and of itself is good or bad, I'm
Speaker 6: honestly have two minds done. Pisco asked me the other
Speaker 6: day about Alligator Alcatraz, and it's the same thing with
Speaker 6: some of this stuff, Like, I'm up two minds about it,
Speaker 6: because on the one hand, not having enough detention centers
Speaker 6: is what created so much trafficking from cartels through Mexico
Speaker 6: because we stopped detaining people while they were waiting asylum and.
Speaker 5: All of that same thing.
Speaker 6: These Ice guys walking around not identifying themselves, in playing clothes,
Speaker 6: grabbing ramissa os turk off the street, like this stuff
Speaker 6: is incredibly disturbing. Then you have to do some of
Speaker 6: it because there are actually criminals. So it just I'm
Speaker 6: sort of split on the app itself, but it seems
Speaker 6: obvious that there was going to be a termination in
Speaker 6: this case the.
Speaker 3: Other disturbing element. And before we go, we can put
Speaker 3: up E two here. This is you know footage that's
Speaker 3: gone you know megaviral of an Ice Ice detention center,
Speaker 3: like you know, surreptitiously recorded people living for extremely long
Speaker 3: stretches in these you know, this is not where somebody
Speaker 3: goes for like an hour and then its processed somewhere else.
Speaker 3: Like people are like living like basically on top of
Speaker 3: each other inside of inside of these makeshift detention camps.
Speaker 6: And not having to do that under the Biden administration,
Speaker 6: a Bomb administration, and first Trump administration, not having to
Speaker 6: do that is what made so it's so attractive for
Speaker 6: that time period that people would come over and claim
Speaker 6: asylum because if you have to do that, you don't
Speaker 6: have such a an e the opportunity, and first like
Speaker 6: this affects people who have legitimate asylum claims, like the
Speaker 6: Venezuelan barber who was fleeing communism and ended up in Seacott.
Speaker 5: Like it's it's it's messed up.
Speaker 3: A lot of countries, you know, managed to control their
Speaker 3: immigration policies without resorting to that though, I mean, or
Speaker 3: this alligator alcatraz Or.
Speaker 5: It's so like, I mean a lot of countries don't
Speaker 5: have the volume that we have.
Speaker 6: But yeah, anyway, anyway, way, yeah, it's everything these days.
Speaker 6: You can't we can't have nice things anymore in this country, right,
Speaker 6: I guess not.
Speaker 5: We can't have competent anything.
Speaker 4: Anyway, good luck to Carolyn, Good luck to Marty.
Speaker 5: Marty was super interesting. You've known him a.
Speaker 3: While, yeah, going back to hof posts since, yes, since
Speaker 3: before he was I think yeah, before he was put
Speaker 3: in prison.
Speaker 5: Interesting.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well it was. It was super fascinating. So we'll
Speaker 6: stay on that story, of course, and Ryan you back
Speaker 6: this week. We're doing Friday.
Speaker 4: Uh, I'm if he.
Speaker 3: My wife's getting surgery related to getting report taken out,
Speaker 3: so we'll just see when that surgery is.
Speaker 4: But I hope to hope to be able to join
Speaker 6: Played by your best Sosius to Ohazon, and we will
Speaker 6: see you back here soon