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Speaker 1: Today's guest is someone who knows power, pressure and reinvention

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Speaker 1: at the highest level. Pam drunk Herman spent two decades

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Speaker 1: at Conde Nas, helping lead some of the most iconic

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Speaker 1: media brands in the world, and then made the bold

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Speaker 1: choice to walk away and build something of her own.

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Speaker 1: This conversation isn't about media or business. It's about what

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Speaker 1: happens when you've climbed the mountain and decided to chase

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Speaker 1: a different one. We talk leadership, identity, fear, ambition, and

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Speaker 1: what it really means to redefine success on your own terms.

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Speaker 1: Pam is honest, sharp, and deeply human and I'm so

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Speaker 1: excited to share this conversation with you all.

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Speaker 2: Let's get into it. Here's Pam. Hi everyone, and.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Wide Open. I am

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Speaker 1: your host, Ashlyn Harris. Lucky for you all today we

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Speaker 1: have Pam Druckerman on the show and she is now

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Speaker 1: the new CEO of run Amuck. And if you don't

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Speaker 1: know what run amok is, We're going to just roll

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Speaker 1: out this red carpet for you because you need to know.

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Speaker 1: Most of our listeners right now, Pam are queer forward people,

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Speaker 1: which we love our community. So we need to get

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Speaker 1: everyone in like on board supporting what you and Eileen

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Speaker 1: are doing with run Amuck. So before we get into that,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the show, my friend.

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Speaker 2: It's about damn time.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having us.

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Speaker 2: I am too, before we.

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Speaker 1: Jump into work, because you are a boss ass business woman.

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Speaker 1: You spent almost what was it two decades at Conde

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Speaker 1: Nas Yeah, and tell me the titles you worked your

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Speaker 1: way up to holding there.

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Speaker 3: I mean I basically like washed the windows and swept

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Speaker 3: the floor and sold some ads. And I know I

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Speaker 3: was there nineteen years.

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Speaker 4: I worked across many brands, I were a a t

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Speaker 4: I was the CMO of the company. At one point,

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Speaker 4: I was the president. I was us that was global.

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Speaker 4: I was literally doing like whatever they needed me to do.

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Speaker 4: And it was a great, great, great, great job. And

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Speaker 4: I still have a lot of friends there that I adore.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, I have a lot.

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Speaker 1: I owe a lot to Conde because that's what brought

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Speaker 1: us together as like close friends. And now you're never like,

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Speaker 1: you're never leaving my life. So just so you know that,

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Speaker 1: I like, I'm going to keep you forever.

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Speaker 2: Period.

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Speaker 1: But we met after the World Cup and we what

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Speaker 1: was it that we were doing.

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Speaker 2: There was a global summit.

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Speaker 4: You're just so memorable for you Yeah, you're like that

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Speaker 4: thing that brought us together.

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Speaker 3: What was that?

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Speaker 1: And then Anna win Tour was like in the front

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Speaker 1: row and I was like, oh my god, this is

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Speaker 1: like really a serious thing.

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Speaker 4: Well I introduced you. That is whatever it's worth, I

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Speaker 4: get even more credit. No, I was hosting a revenue

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Speaker 4: summit and we were having we wanted to host a

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Speaker 4: panel with some like baller women who might have done

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Speaker 4: some exceptional things. And you came in a Tom Brown suit,

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Speaker 4: which already like checked a major conde box for me specifically,

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Speaker 4: but mostly everyone in the room, including Anna and you

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Speaker 4: were you know, we were. The whole point is to

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Speaker 4: motivate the team and get them like energized about you know,

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Speaker 4: going out in the world and doing something that isn't

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Speaker 4: easy to do. And you know, I'll never forget you

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Speaker 4: talked about, you know, the one percent and working hard

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Speaker 4: and putting it out all out on the field as

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Speaker 4: an athlete. And this will probably come up. I'm sure

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Speaker 4: that like obviously I was an athlete at some point.

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Speaker 3: Sure, that's in Europe.

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Speaker 2: Oh, we are getting into that, right, and.

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Speaker 4: So we we bonded on our you know, exceptional careers

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Speaker 4: and sports. But I often most people that worked for

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Speaker 4: me at Conde would say that I probably never gave

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Speaker 4: a motivational speech that didn't have some sort of sports analogy.

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Speaker 3: So it just kind of felt perfect.

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Speaker 4: I feel like, uh, you know, that definitely brought us together,

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Speaker 4: like in terms of meeting, but.

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Speaker 3: Then we became friends.

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Speaker 4: And you actually don't know if you remember this, but

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Speaker 4: you were on my first you were one of my

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Speaker 4: first podcast guests on my podcast when as a conduct.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, so here we are full here, here

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Speaker 1: we are full circle, and like our friendship has just

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Speaker 1: totally blossomed over the years, and I'm so grateful for it.

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Speaker 2: I you know, what I really love about you.

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Speaker 1: Is you are such a high up executive in all

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Speaker 1: of these realms in world, but like you're so fucking cool,

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Speaker 1: and I really think when you yeah, but when you're

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Speaker 1: like raised in a locker room and you're raised around

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Speaker 1: like a lot of people, and sport is part of

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Speaker 1: your identity, especially like your wife, you guys are really

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Speaker 1: active people. I do think it makes it so much

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Speaker 1: easier to connect and there's like no coincidence. Why they're saying,

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Speaker 1: like ninety four percent of women who hold high level

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Speaker 1: C suite positions have played some form of organized sports.

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Speaker 2: Like that is like a real deal.

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Speaker 1: And I do think that is the connective tissue that

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Speaker 1: spiked like our friendship from from the beginning is our

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Speaker 1: love for fashion, but really our love for sport and

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Speaker 1: like that human element. And I find that most people

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Speaker 1: get that human element when they've been raised like in

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Speaker 1: a locker room, in a melting pot of just grit

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Speaker 1: and hard work and drama and all the shit that

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Speaker 1: comes with organized sports.

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Speaker 4: So it's very similar in the in the conference room, right,

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Speaker 4: like it really is, it really is, and women are like,

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Speaker 4: you know, I was going to say that when when

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Speaker 4: you're coming up as an executive and when you're you know,

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Speaker 4: coming up as a professional athlete or as an athlete,

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Speaker 4: you know, there's a certain level of competition, there's a

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Speaker 4: certain level of preparedness, there's a certain level of energy.

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Speaker 4: You know, there's a certain level of like you got

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Speaker 4: to be the best to you know, get the get

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Speaker 4: the job or ultimately you know, make the team or

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Speaker 4: get a play.

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Speaker 3: And so I do think that there's a.

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Speaker 4: Lot of overlap in in those characteristics in like what

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Speaker 4: it takes. I still I really do call upon, you know,

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Speaker 4: many of the things that like I learned as a

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Speaker 4: as an athlete growing up. And I actually think there's

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Speaker 4: a there's definitely like a persona and a mentality that

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Speaker 4: comes with like you know, we thrive off of the

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Speaker 4: pain and the competitiveness and the wanting it so bad

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Speaker 4: and if it never feels better when you win, I'm

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Speaker 4: telling you, like I've never the parallel between winning a

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Speaker 4: piece of business and winning a game and like losing

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Speaker 4: a piece of business and losing a game.

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Speaker 3: Or like exactly the same for me, Like it really is.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm at my best when I'm winning, and I'm

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Speaker 4: definitely not happy when I'm losing.

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Speaker 3: So it's all there.

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Speaker 2: Are you a poor loser? Tell me?

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Speaker 3: I would say I'm a poor loser. I just don't

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Speaker 3: like to lose.

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Speaker 2: I'm a poor loser.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, I mean I think, like, define poor loser,

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Speaker 4: what's a poor like?

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Speaker 2: Don't like I can't I'm the same. I don't like

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Speaker 2: to lose. I don't lose often.

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Speaker 1: But like I'm the girl that if I lose pong,

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Speaker 1: I'm chucking that paddle.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And you lose ping Pong a lot. I would

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Speaker 3: imagine that.

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Speaker 2: No, actually I don't.

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Speaker 5: I don't.

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Speaker 2: I played. I played. I played Carly and.

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Speaker 1: Ping Pong, by the way, that's one of our mutual friends.

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Speaker 1: And I smashed her and she thought she was like

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Speaker 1: the queen of ping pong and our queer group and

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Speaker 1: had like never lost that. The way she was so

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Speaker 1: angry and the way I like am using it against

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Speaker 1: her for the rest of our life is something that

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Speaker 1: is so lol and I love because it just we're

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Speaker 1: also competitive, like our friend group, by the way, we're

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Speaker 1: like the most she queer lesbian group of New York City.

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Speaker 2: We should be doing a new retake on the L word.

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Speaker 2: I keep telling you this all the time.

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Speaker 1: But we'll get into that. We'll get into that soon. Okay,

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Speaker 1: talk to me about who Pam was as a younger kid.

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Speaker 1: Who was Pam as like, you know, growing up, figuring

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Speaker 1: out her sexual identity, playing in sports, Like where did

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Speaker 1: it all start for you?

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Speaker 4: I feel like I was always I feel like I'm like,

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Speaker 4: I don't know, I feel like I'm a version of

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Speaker 4: who I've always been. I was like a little spitfire.

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Speaker 4: I'm an older brother. We would wrestle. I was always

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Speaker 4: like very athletic. I was definitely what we would have

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Speaker 4: called a tomboy back then. Like I don't think my

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Speaker 4: my friend group in elementary school or whatever we call

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Speaker 4: it saw me put my hair down until I was

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Speaker 4: like in high school and they were like shocked.

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Speaker 3: They'd only see my hair in a ponytail.

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Speaker 4: My mom says that when like I, you know, she

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Speaker 4: used to put me in little dresses and like the

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Speaker 4: moment I could speak, I was like pants and shorts,

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Speaker 4: but then I got really into I would say it

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Speaker 4: was definitely one of those girls that like really got

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Speaker 4: into like makeup and clothes, and so I really I

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Speaker 4: had a hard time, like I guess, identifying with my

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Speaker 4: sexual identity early like some people did, just because I

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Speaker 4: never really felt like I don't know, I just didn't

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Speaker 4: feel like I totally fit in with like some of

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Speaker 4: my friends who were like super fem and I definitely

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Speaker 4: didn't fit in with some of the women who were

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Speaker 4: not super fem and like I just was kind of

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Speaker 4: me and I didn't really have I don't know, I

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Speaker 4: just didn't I didn't see a lot of people that

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Speaker 4: like felt like that looked like me, that talked like

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Speaker 4: me or whatever. But personality wise, I've always been you know,

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Speaker 4: the same, like just a total sarcastic like coming for you,

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Speaker 4: like competitor.

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Speaker 3: I think I'm funny.

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Speaker 4: Not everyone would say that they agree, but just like

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Speaker 4: I don't know, like I feel like I've always just

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Speaker 4: been someone that wasn't afraid to, you know, say.

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Speaker 3: What I really believe.

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Speaker 4: And I was always lucky to have a lot of

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Speaker 4: friends around me and have a you know, a great

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Speaker 4: kind of like I think sports did a lot of

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Speaker 4: that for me sense of self, I guess, but I

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Speaker 4: do see myself as a late bloomer when it came

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Speaker 4: to like my sexual identity, and like I didn't even

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Speaker 4: really come out till like I was in my like

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Speaker 4: late late twenties. And let's just say that, like some

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Speaker 4: of my friends were completely shocked, floored, and some of

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Speaker 4: my friends were like, this is not at all surprise.

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Speaker 1: So same, same, very similar stories there. So I fe

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Speaker 1: that deep.

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Speaker 2: In my bones, Reilly.

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Speaker 1: And then you know, like what I love so much

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Speaker 1: too is your wife Florida Girls, Like did you I

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Speaker 1: laugh about this because Sophia always says, like I never

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Speaker 1: imagine falling in love with a Florida girl, and we

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Speaker 1: fucking ticked differently. So let me just like be very clear,

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Speaker 1: your wife is the like best I'm obsessed with Lindsay

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Speaker 1: the first for everyone out there. The first time I

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Speaker 1: met Lindsay, We're like in the Hamptons or something, and

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Speaker 1: I it's like a little chili, We're making a bomb fire,

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, I see her go into

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Speaker 1: the woods and start like kicking and hacking and like

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Speaker 1: swinging and getting wood. I was like, I was like,

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Speaker 1: this is my like, this is my person, Like I

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Speaker 1: get her.

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Speaker 2: Did you ever think you would fall in love with

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Speaker 2: the Florida girl?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 4: I mean I didn't think I going to fall in

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Speaker 4: love with a girl number one, But then the Florida

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Speaker 4: side was like, I don't know, even more shocking. I

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Speaker 4: don't like this is gonna I'm sorry to like get

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Speaker 4: make a lot of people angry. I'm a dry heat

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Speaker 4: type of girl. I don't like humidity. No, if my

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Speaker 4: hair is like a real thing, I probably should say that,

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Speaker 4: like it is one of the top three things that

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Speaker 4: define me. And I like there's nothing in fact, right

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Speaker 4: after this, I'm going to get a proper blowout, So

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Speaker 4: like getting a blowout in Florida is like literally the

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Speaker 4: most contradictory thing you could ever do. Yeah, it is

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Speaker 4: like a total waste of time. But Lindsay, like you

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Speaker 4: loves the swamp and I just don't get it. Like

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Speaker 4: I don't understand the love for the swamp. But I

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Speaker 4: have come to appreciate the people. Okay, the people that

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Speaker 4: have come out of Florida. There's something like really resilient

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Speaker 4: about you guys. There's definitely an intelligence factor, there's an attractiveness.

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Speaker 4: So I would say like maybe like there's something in

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Speaker 4: the air that makes good good humans, but I'm just

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Speaker 4: not It's just not my jam.

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Speaker 1: So what you're saying is like you'll never just like

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Speaker 1: pick up and go there and live there.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I literally, like Lindsay loves to talk about like what

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Speaker 4: if and where would we live and how we do

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Speaker 4: it and when we do it. I have a really

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Speaker 4: good friend actually who just did the unthinkable. She was

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Speaker 4: one of those people that said she would never buy

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Speaker 4: real estate in Flora. In fact, you met her, Becky, Yes,

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Speaker 4: Becky at my birthday party. Yes, they just bought like

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Speaker 4: a weekend spot in Naples. And I'm like this is

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Speaker 4: like we didn't talk about.

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Speaker 2: This never say never.

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Speaker 3: All right, well people are doing it now.

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Speaker 1: So as you start figuring out your identity, you're like,

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Speaker 1: you know you you were born and raised in California, right, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: same same, So many of like you and Sofia and

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Speaker 1: me and Lindsay are like so similar, it's so similar.

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Speaker 2: It cracks me up.

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Speaker 1: And yes, she's the same way about the humidity, She's like,

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Speaker 1: it's too sticky here, right, It's what made my body

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Speaker 1: feel really good and be able to play for so

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Speaker 1: many years, is that humidity?

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Speaker 2: So like I'm grateful for it.

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Speaker 4: Well, we're happy for you, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 4: Like you should continue to love it.

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Speaker 2: So what led you?

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Speaker 1: I know you you worked in a few different aspects

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Speaker 1: of Conde, but like I know you're such a like

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Speaker 1: you fucking scrap and you're smart and you're intentional and

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Speaker 1: you know, like you're such a mentor to someone like me.

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Speaker 1: Even when I was like retiring, I remember sitting down

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Speaker 1: with you and having like all these great conversations.

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Speaker 2: But like who was your mentor? Who was someone you

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Speaker 2: looked up to? Who you were like, yeah, I want

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Speaker 2: to do that.

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Speaker 3: That's such a great question. Well, it's interesting.

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Speaker 4: I feel like I've been lucky enough that I've had

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Speaker 4: a few mentors. I feel like I've been scrappy kind of,

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Speaker 4: you know, most of my life. Like I always felt

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Speaker 4: like I was in rooms where you know, I don't know,

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Speaker 4: just maybe it was my own mindset, but that like

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Speaker 4: I had to compete, whether it was for the job

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Speaker 4: or to you know, get the internship, like when it

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Speaker 4: started way back, but it was definitely something that you know,

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Speaker 4: I feel like I was always pretty at it identifying

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Speaker 4: and being identified by the people that, especially at a

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Speaker 4: really young age, that you know, could open doors for me.

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Speaker 4: And I was I was never fair. I'll never forget.

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Speaker 4: My dad gave me this advice a long time ago.

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Speaker 4: But he said, and I say this to my kids

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Speaker 4: all the time, like if you don't ask, you don't get,

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Speaker 4: you know, like that's kind of how it is, Like

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Speaker 4: you want the job, you got to ask for the job.

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Speaker 3: And you know, it doesn't mean you don't have to,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 4: I don't like when people just feel entitled to the job,

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Speaker 4: like you have to work hard and understand what it takes,

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Speaker 4: you know, to get the job. But I think it's

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Speaker 4: really important and I did this at a at a

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Speaker 4: really young age. I did it when I was you know,

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Speaker 4: work putting myself through college. I did it, you know,

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Speaker 4: in a variety of jobs that weren't always important ones.

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Speaker 4: But I remember like in almost every job that I

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Speaker 4: had a boss saying like, hey, my goal is this,

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Speaker 4: and ultimately like I want to work to get to this.

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Speaker 4: And and I think when you do that, when you

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Speaker 4: when you put that intention out there, I think then

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Speaker 4: you're you're actually giving you know, the you're actually putting

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Speaker 4: it out there to even receive mentorship, because I think

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Speaker 4: people like to be a part of others success. And

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Speaker 4: I think it's important because when when you make it

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Speaker 4: someone else's idea, then they're kind of in on you.

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Speaker 3: They kind of feel like they're investing in you.

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Speaker 4: And and so I had many, many, many conversations like that,

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Speaker 4: whether it was in a performance review or over over

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Speaker 4: dinner or drinks or wherever I could where I would

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Speaker 4: definitely like just find a way to talk to the

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Speaker 4: person that I felt like, could you know, could help me,

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Speaker 4: could propel me. And I didn't look at it as

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Speaker 4: a one way relationship.

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Speaker 3: By the way. It didn't feel like, hey, You're going

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Speaker 3: to do this for me, and I'm not going to

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Speaker 3: do anything for you.

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Speaker 4: I always felt very indebted to those people, and I

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Speaker 4: like wanted to kill it for them. Yeah, you know

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Speaker 4: what I mean, like a coach, Like I always kind

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Speaker 4: of saw that person like I would a coach, like

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Speaker 4: I'm gonna win for you. Get me the ball and

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Speaker 4: I'll make sure to score. Like it definitely felt similar.

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Speaker 4: And so I would say that I had a few

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Speaker 4: a few different mentors, and and I would say, actually

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Speaker 4: have had a few different female mentors. And I was

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Speaker 4: really lucky to work with like senior executive women that

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Speaker 4: like wanted to open doors for me, and that taught

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Speaker 4: me to open doors for others.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: So I love that, and you sure do that.

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Speaker 1: You are always like wanting the best out of the

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Speaker 1: people around you and providing opportunity and understanding and real wisdom.

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Speaker 1: And I think, you know, especially like women in high

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Speaker 1: positions like you were, you know you hold as a

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Speaker 1: CEO or you know now at run Amook. It's like

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Speaker 1: it's a really interesting thing because there are not many

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Speaker 1: women who look like us there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well also like it's not even just look like us.

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Speaker 4: It's like act like us. I mean, I will say,

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Speaker 4: you know, one of the people that I respect the

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Speaker 4: most when I think about my time at Conde Nast,

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Speaker 4: And this is an obvious to say, oh Anna Winter,

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Speaker 4: right m hm. I would say that people would also

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Speaker 4: say really tough things about her because she is she's tough.

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Speaker 4: But what I respected about Anna and I still do,

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Speaker 4: and she's someone that I consider a friend. But I

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Speaker 4: have a tremendous amount of respect for her work ethic

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Speaker 4: on top of her vision. And she is a person

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Speaker 4: that you know, literally comes to work every day, works

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Speaker 4: extremely hard, expects the best out of the people around her.

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Speaker 3: But this isn't someone that's just sitting.

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Speaker 4: There delegating, you know, like she works extremely hard, like

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Speaker 4: she's in the trenches with everyone else. And I learned

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Speaker 4: a lot from her in terms of how she approaches

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Speaker 4: you know, uh, problem solving, how she approaches you know,

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Speaker 4: building something that others don't believe in, and even how

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Speaker 4: and I don't know again, like I'm sure she evolved

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Speaker 4: over time, but just you know, just how she even

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Speaker 4: approaches like new big ideas, and this is someone who's

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Speaker 4: still like inventing new ideas and she's like, well into

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Speaker 4: her seventies, and so I just feel really lucky that

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Speaker 4: I got to work with someone like that whom you know.

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Speaker 4: It was also and people used to say this about

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Speaker 4: me too, like, oh, she's really tough. And I think

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Speaker 4: people like to say that about women, right, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: that's definitely like to put that out there that you know,

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Speaker 4: women who expect a lot are tough or like, you know,

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Speaker 4: there's a reputation that comes with that. And you know,

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Speaker 4: I I've lived my life that way, and so you know,

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Speaker 4: I like it when people say I'm tough.

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Speaker 2: Stay tuned.

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Speaker 5: I'll be back in just a moment after this brief

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Speaker 5: message from our sponsors.

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Speaker 2: I think we.

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Speaker 1: Hold a certain standard and we you know, we hold

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Speaker 1: ourselves accountable. I think accountability is such a huge piece.

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Speaker 1: But it is really interesting when you say that like

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Speaker 1: these you know, women in really high level positions, it's

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Speaker 1: like dangerous to society, it's dangerous to men. Sometimes it's

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Speaker 1: like you you get these kind of umbrellas put over

398
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Speaker 1: you being like this, you know, bitchy.

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Speaker 2: Or tough or hard or like.

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Speaker 1: You know, even Anna her wearing glasses all the time

401
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Speaker 1: in every room.

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Speaker 2: I think at the beginning really offended a lot of people.

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Speaker 4: I mean, people just got to I mean it's like

404
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Speaker 4: the I just think that those things to me are

405
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Speaker 4: just like the most ridiculous things ever. Yeah, because just

406
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,840
Speaker 4: looking for reasons to say whatever the fuck, you know.

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Speaker 3: Like yeah, I you know.

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Speaker 4: The interesting thing about her is that like she just

409
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Speaker 4: like wants to like just wants excellence, Like that's all

410
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Speaker 4: she wants at the end of the day.

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Speaker 3: She just wants the best.

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Speaker 4: And doesn't mean she's flawless, you know what I mean,

413
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Speaker 4: Like because she's flawed. She's a fucking human, you know,

414
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Speaker 4: we all are, But she just wants excellence at the

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Speaker 4: end of the day. It's like if you walk out

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Speaker 4: of every room and go into any business situation just

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Speaker 4: wanting the best, Like who who doesn't want that? And

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Speaker 4: I just think people are threatened by people with power,

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Speaker 4: and I think people, especially women.

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Speaker 3: I will say one antidote.

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Speaker 4: About that though, I love the one the one place that,

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Speaker 4: like I have to say, where I feel like I

423
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Speaker 4: really came into my own when it came to my

424
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Speaker 4: queerness was in rooms with lots of men, because I

425
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Speaker 4: feel it felt like in those and I've said this before,

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Speaker 4: like uh, and you've probably heard me say this like

427
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Speaker 4: at dinner or something like that. But it was like

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Speaker 4: the like to be a queer woman in a high

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Speaker 4: level position or like in a room with a bunch

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Speaker 4: of men, specifically straight men. I would say in this example,

431
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Speaker 4: like they kind of don't know what to do with you,

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Speaker 4: but like see you as like another dude a certain extent.

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Speaker 4: And so in a way, I felt like very very

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Speaker 4: empowered by that, and I was empowered, like I wasn't treated.

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Speaker 4: It was kind of the irony of the whole situation

436
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Speaker 4: because as a queer, like there's just so many ways

437
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 4: that you're seeing differently, but in business, it like really

438
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,680
Speaker 4: gave me an edge and I.

439
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Speaker 3: Really felt like me.

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Speaker 4: It was like the first time that I felt like

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Speaker 4: being exactly who I was in all the ways was

442
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 4: exactly what I needed to be to like.

443
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,920
Speaker 3: You know, rise to the occasion.

444
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 4: And so I never felt like kind of othered actually

445
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,640
Speaker 4: or like you know, I didn't get the job because

446
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:48,720
Speaker 4: a man got it instead of me, Like I didn't

447
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:49,679
Speaker 4: have that same experience.

448
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:50,360
Speaker 3: So I'm sure I had.

449
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,760
Speaker 4: I mean, I have other stories, but like it, it

450
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,880
Speaker 4: actually was an amazing thing for me, and I think

451
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 4: for queer women to go into spaces like that where

452
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,399
Speaker 4: I don't know you feel, where you don't actually feel, like,

453
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 4: where you feel empowered by your sexuality as opposed to

454
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:07,200
Speaker 4: the opposite.

455
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

456
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you've paved the way for so many people

457
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 1: because you were the first and I don't think you know,

458
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 1: maybe people don't know that, but like the job you

459
00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,480
Speaker 1: held there was the first woman, especially the first queer woman,

460
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 1: and I think that opens doors and shows that visibility

461
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:27,720
Speaker 1: for a lot of other people. And there's a lot

462
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,680
Speaker 1: of power in that. But what I love so much

463
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 1: about what you chose to do is bet on yourself

464
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:38,640
Speaker 1: and leave. I think there's and I can't imagine because

465
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 1: you spent twenty years chasing that greatness that was instilled

466
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,639
Speaker 1: in you as a little kid, and you climb the

467
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,920
Speaker 1: ladder and you were such an innovator and you're so

468
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,359
Speaker 1: disruptive in that category because you were doing things that

469
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,439
Speaker 1: had never been done before, and people knew how important

470
00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,399
Speaker 1: you were driving revenue, driving growth, driving the creator like

471
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 1: because that industry was changing very quickly based on digital print,

472
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 1: you name it. That's a lot of pressure to begin with.

473
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,159
Speaker 1: But I think for me, what I love so much

474
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 1: is it's never too late to bet on yourself, and

475
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 1: you chose to do that by shifting entirely. And now

476
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 1: you're the CEO of run Amuck. And for our listeners

477
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,919
Speaker 1: and people viewing this episode, like, can you give us

478
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: a tell us what run a Muck is? And I want,

479
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 1: I want you to talk about that, because I imagine

480
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 1: picking up and leaving something you've only known for majority

481
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 1: of your professional career and being like, I'm going to

482
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,679
Speaker 1: start this new thing and I believe in it and

483
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,640
Speaker 1: I believe in the power it holds.

484
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 2: Talk to me about that.

485
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, it's very astute of you. It

486
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 4: was a really hard decision. Actually, it's like the hardest

487
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 4: thing I feel like I've ever done. I do feel

488
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,439
Speaker 4: like I've had relative versions of that, very relative, like

489
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,959
Speaker 4: much smaller versions of that throughout my life where I

490
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 4: had to take myself out of an area where I

491
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 4: was trying to grow out of it but yet feel

492
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 4: very comfortable, and put myself into.

493
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 3: An uncomfortable environment to then grow again.

494
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 4: And I feel like, you know, I've got an amazing

495
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 4: opportunity at Conde NOAs to do that several times in

496
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 4: different roles and in different jobs working for different people,

497
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 4: and I remember like going from small roles and small

498
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 4: brands at the time to you know, bigger roles at

499
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,440
Speaker 4: bigger brands, and that feeling very like, oh, like, why

500
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 4: did I do this? I was so comfortable before, So

501
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 4: there was an element of this moment that felt similar.

502
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 4: The harder part was, I know I still don't by

503
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:47,160
Speaker 4: the way, I don't have it all figured out. It's

504
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 4: not like you know for sure that it's going to work,

505
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 4: or that you know for sure that you're going to

506
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:51,159
Speaker 4: be successful.

507
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,199
Speaker 3: But that's not why you're doing it.

508
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 4: I mean, that's of course what I want, you know,

509
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 4: on the other side of it, because I'm a competitor,

510
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 4: I want run them up and I will say what

511
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 4: we're doing and what it's so exciting. But what occurred

512
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 4: to me after nineteen years at Conde Nast, and one

513
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 4: of the reasons why I didn't leave, is that there

514
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 4: was never another place that I wanted to go work

515
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 4: at in media, Like I felt like I was at

516
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 4: the best place in the entire world, and I got

517
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 4: to work with the best brands and the best people,

518
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 4: And in many ways I still feel that way. But

519
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 4: I saw that the industry was moving, and there was

520
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 4: a lot of different things happening in Hollywood. There's a

521
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 4: lot of different A lot of things are happening in Hollywood.

522
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 4: There's a lot of things happening with the creator economy,

523
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 4: there's a lot of things happening with consumer behavior and

524
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 4: consumer shifts. And what was also happening with me was

525
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 4: that I was just kind of growing out of this

526
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 4: amazing place, this amazing journey that I had been on,

527
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 4: and I was kind of conflicted. I just didn't know,

528
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 4: like what did I want to do next. And you know,

529
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 4: I was lucky enough to get introduced to Eileen Eileen

530
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 4: Chaikin while I was still at Conde, and we had

531
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 4: an amazing kind of like meet and greet, and I

532
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 4: was introduced to Jennifer Bills, who's one of our co

533
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 4: founders as well, and I just started like talking to

534
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 4: them almost as an advisor, like this this wasn't something

535
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 4: I was going to go do, like we were going

536
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 4: to go start a company together, but I was kind

537
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 4: of just advising.

538
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 3: And the more that I.

539
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 4: Was speaking to them, and I won't get into like,

540
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 4: you know, I was also talking to this other company

541
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 4: at this one point, but like I just kind of

542
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 4: had this, you know, feeling similar to how I felt

543
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 4: about people that I've met in my life, where you

544
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 4: just feel a certain level of chemistry and an instinct.

545
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 4: And I've always like followed my instincts, but there was

546
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 4: something that was drawing me to both of them actually,

547
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 4: but I couldn't really put my finger on it, but

548
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 4: I just like knew that there was this. We were

549
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 4: all kind of talking about the same thing, and we

550
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 4: were coming about it from different angles, because we're different

551
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 4: people with different levels of experience, Like I'm a business

552
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,479
Speaker 4: person and an operator, and you know, Eileen is like

553
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 4: this prolific television creator and Jennifer is, you know, an actor.

554
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 4: But just all of a sudden, this idea just kind

555
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 4: of clicked for me while I was still at Conde

556
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 4: Nast that the one thing I had not done yet

557
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 4: was start my own company. And I was almost more

558
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 4: concerned that I would get to a time in my

559
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,239
Speaker 4: life and look back and have deep regret that I

560
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 4: hadn't actually like put it out all on the field,

561
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 4: Like I felt like, this is the one thing that

562
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 4: I hadn't done yet, and I was afraid to do it,

563
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 4: to be honest with you, because I watched my parents

564
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 4: run their own business and they had a lot of

565
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 4: challenges when I was much younger, and I watched them

566
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 4: deal with a lot of like financial problems, hence why

567
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 4: I had to put myself through college. And I remember

568
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 4: saying actively, you know, even to Lindsay when I was

569
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 4: much younger, like I'll never start my own company, Like

570
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 4: I don't want that level of pressure, right, Yeah, So

571
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 4: it's just it was kind of coming full circle that

572
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 4: I had decided to go do this and what I

573
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 4: decided to go doll start something that I really believe in,

574
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 4: which is like the future of media. So run them

575
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 4: up in and of itself is a multi channel media company.

576
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,239
Speaker 4: We've built the entire company around the consumer. And what

577
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 4: that means is that, you know, we make TV and film,

578
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 4: we make podcasts like this, we make digital series. We

579
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 4: launched our first newsletter, which is called Drafting. But ultimately,

580
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 4: and I'll talk about like you know, the evolution too.

581
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 4: I mean when we first started the company, we're like,

582
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 4: you know, we're we've launched this like queer media company.

583
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 4: And then like one day, like Eileen and Jennifer and

584
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 4: I were sitting in a room and we're like, wait

585
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 4: a minute, we're queers and we started a media company.

586
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 4: This is not the same thing because we see this

587
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 4: as having you know, we want to create content that is,

588
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,959
Speaker 4: you know, the tip of the spear that's driving culture

589
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 4: forward across categories like fashion and music, at sports and ultimately,

590
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 4: like there's just so much opportunity to meet consumers where

591
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 4: they are and doing do it in a way that

592
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 4: serves them, quite frankly. And so we have twenty two

593
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,199
Speaker 4: TV and film projects and development as we speak, wow,

594
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 4: which are really really exciting, and they have a lot

595
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 4: of Eileen Shake and magic and you know, I don't

596
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 4: know if your listeners know this, but some of the

597
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 4: projects that she's been the creator of include everything from the.

598
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 3: L word Legendary, which we love.

599
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 4: But she also was the creator of Empire, which was

600
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 4: like one of my favorite literally one of my favorite

601
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 4: shows and probably one of the best I would say,

602
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 4: uh TV soundtracks, Like I've ever heard The Handmaid's Tale,

603
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 4: I mean she like Twin Peaks, I mean Law and Order,

604
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,719
Speaker 4: I mean so many Fresh Princes of bel Air. So

605
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 4: many of the shows that have had such impact, great

606
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 4: impact on you know, consumers, you know, came from her

607
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 4: and so the opportunity to take that magic and create

608
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 4: a multi channel world around that magic and monetize it

609
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 4: in multiple ways. It's just an unreal, unbelievable opportunity. And

610
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 4: we're one year old and it's been crazy, like since

611
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 4: the very beginning, and I have days where I feel

612
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 4: like I'm literally chewing glass and I want to die.

613
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 3: It's so hard.

614
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 4: I'm literally doing I was telling something the other day

615
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 4: and like I'm literally like I have moments I'm literally

616
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 4: like writing, I'm doing things that I did and like

617
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 4: when I was the most junior person you've ever met. Yeah,

618
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 4: and I'm you know, doing things that like you know,

619
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 4: a very senior executive would do all the same time.

620
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 4: And it's just like humbling, and you know, my kids

621
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 4: are like, why did you do this?

622
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 3: This is crazy?

623
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 2: You know, welcome to entrepreneurship, honey.

624
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 4: Well and by the way, you know what I say them,

625
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 4: based on how this conversation started, I was like, you

626
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 4: know what, sometimes you do need to bet on yourself.

627
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 3: Yes, And I.

628
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 4: I feel the one thing I will say that I

629
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 4: feel really proud of is that, like, you know, I

630
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 4: want my kids to see me, you know, go out

631
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 4: there and and try something and even if I fail,

632
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 4: you know, at the end of the day, like, failure

633
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 4: is a part of growth, and I'm not afraid to fail,

634
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 4: to be honest with you, And I actually think that's

635
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 4: another thing that separates people that can go the distance

636
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 4: and people that can't. You can't be afraid to fail

637
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 4: because failure is part of the ride, exactly.

638
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 5: You know, this is wide open and I'm your host,

639
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 5: Ashlyn Harris.

640
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. We'll be right back. I think that

641
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 2: fear cripples people to even try it.

642
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 4: They do, and like, I also think people are just

643
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 4: so And one thing I just wanted to reference about

644
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 4: like what we're doing in terms of the content we're making,

645
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 4: because to me, like one of the things I love

646
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 4: about running my own company and getting to work with

647
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 4: Eileen and Jennifer is that, like there are stories that

648
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 4: we really want to tell that are about breaking boundaries,

649
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:39,479
Speaker 4: that are about driving culture, that are sometimes queer, but

650
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 4: are mostly just about like just you know, I mean,

651
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 4: Eileen said to me the other day, like what the

652
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 4: fuck happened to great sex on television?

653
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 3: Thank god for heated rivalry, right, Oh my god, God

654
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 3: for honting wives.

655
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 4: Right, But The thing is is that if many of

656
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 4: the rooms that I have been in Hollywood and we

657
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 4: were talking about just what everyone's buying or what people

658
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 4: are looking to buy, like everyone, you know, there's so

659
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 4: many studios and so many buyers that are so safe

660
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 4: and so afraid of failure.

661
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 3: And when you buy.

662
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 4: Ipe that way, a the consumer totally misses out because

663
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 4: they didn't even know.

664
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 3: What they didn't get to see.

665
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 4: But be like, if you're if you're buying not to fail,

666
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 4: then you're not taking the proper risks to bring the

667
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 4: best content to the world. And so that's another thing

668
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 4: that I'm really proud of it runnam Uck that like

669
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 4: we're focused on that.

670
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 3: We're not safe.

671
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 4: Actually, like we believe that there's certain categories and certain

672
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 4: television shows that should be out there. There's certain formats

673
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 4: that we should be challenging. I'd love to see, you know,

674
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 4: a premium series on YouTube. Our substack for Hollywood newsletter

675
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 4: that we just launched, just really about working with some

676
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 4: of the people that we think are the most important

677
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 4: in terms of emerging in culture. And it's fun to

678
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 4: be able to flex that way, you know, And I

679
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 4: think with you, like I look at someone like you

680
00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 4: and I think, I mean talk about transition from like

681
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,239
Speaker 4: playing sports your whole life, so now here you are

682
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 4: hosting a fucking podcast. I mean you, that's like that.

683
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 4: I don't think there's any bigger bet than having to

684
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 4: actually change careers. And we've actually talked about this, right, Like,

685
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 4: that's like a major I don't know, Like, how are

686
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 4: you feeling about that?

687
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 5: Right now?

688
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 2: You must be like, yeah, I love it. I love

689
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 2: dabbling and everything.

690
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: I think at the core of who I am just

691
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: like you, I'm a creator. I'm a storyteller. I think

692
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: the impact and influence we have by sharing our story

693
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: to go after things that make us feel uncomfortable. Like

694
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: I say this genuinely and you spoke about this. Pressure

695
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: is a fucking privilege, seriously, Like pressure is a privilege

696
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: to me. And the second I feel safe, the second

697
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: I lose that light Like I want to be uncomfortable.

698
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 2: I want to grow.

699
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: I'm now in unscripted, I'm starting to get into scripted.

700
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 2: I'm doing podcasts.

701
00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: I'm working in commercial growth of women's sports. I like

702
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: people are like, how do you hold it all? Because

703
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: I want to, right, because I want to pave the

704
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: way that shows people.

705
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 2: I am much bigger than what I did.

706
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: I have brains, I have understanding, I have an impact

707
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: to influence culture, to change it all of these things.

708
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's why you got to where you were

709
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 4: to begin with, because like someone in someone else would

710
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 4: have been just.

711
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 3: Happy being you know, I don't know, like.

712
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 4: Getting a scholarship to go play at the University of

713
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 4: North Carolina. Someone else would have just been okay with

714
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 4: the fact that like they made, you know, any sort

715
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 4: of professional team, let alone get into the World Cup,

716
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 4: let alone have an opportunity to play in the Olympics. Like,

717
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 4: and you're still fucking doing it right now, and then

718
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 4: I'm gonna go and then and then and then because

719
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 4: like the truth of the matter is, it's like that's

720
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 4: what it is. It's like never it's not about not

721
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 4: being Because people say to me, like, are you just

722
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 4: not satisfied. I'm like, no, I am satisfied growing Like

723
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 4: I am satisfied, like going for it, and that is

724
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 4: like the thing that like I hope and you have

725
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 4: kids like that, that is the thing, you know, I

726
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 4: hope just like that's what I want to see in

727
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 4: my kids more than anything, you know.

728
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 3: What I mean?

729
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 4: Like obviously want them to be happy individuals and good

730
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 4: people in the world, you know, but like I want

731
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 4: them to like want it whatever that it is, and

732
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,479
Speaker 4: to like make a life kind of constantly going for it.

733
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 4: And there's that sort of just a really important I mean,

734
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 4: you're ambitious as fuck, You've got a ton of like

735
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 4: you know, and you're scrappy and you're not afraid to

736
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 4: work hard, and those are all like just such important

737
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 4: things as a as an as an athlete, and as

738
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 4: a as an aspiring executive or in any other way

739
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 4: that you're trying to make it in the world.

740
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I and what I love, you know, thank

741
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: you for saying all those nice things about me. And

742
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: I receive that because I'm also working on that. I

743
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: appreciate that.

744
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 2: It's very thoughtful and it means a lot to me.

745
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: I do think for people like you and myself, I

746
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: didn't have much visibility growing up, So I do. I

747
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: do really think that the storytelling piece, like the impact

748
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: you're going to have on media, the impact Eileen has

749
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: had on her you know.

750
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 2: Creative gift to storytell.

751
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: I think what I you know, the political climate is

752
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 1: the political climate and what we had been told within

753
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: those walls is no one's going to pick up these

754
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 1: kinds of shows. No one's going to push this a

755
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: queer agenda, agenda, no one wants to see two women,

756
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 1: two men.

757
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 2: YadA, YadA, YadA.

758
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: We fucking heard it all and and andmedia companies and

759
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: big hubs have really scaled back. And what we have

760
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 1: been taught in the last several months is the biggest

761
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: stories that people are consuming right now is queer fucking content.

762
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 3: Either way, this is nothing new, nothing new, So it's.

763
00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 2: It's what an unbelievable opportunity. Well you all have we

764
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: do and like.

765
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 4: I mean, listen, Heated Rivalry for for all, it's for

766
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 4: whatever it's worth it. I mean, it's a great it's

767
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 4: not just I mean Hunting Wives too. These aren't just

768
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 4: great because of the queerness. They're great fucking shows, you

769
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 4: know what I mean. They're great shows, really well done.

770
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 4: Hunting Wives was so funny and interesting and I love

771
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 4: the whole red blue like confusion and I mean someone

772
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,479
Speaker 4: that you know, like, I think I got into Heated

773
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 4: Rivalry late like everyone else was, like I don't know,

774
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 4: I just finally finished it like two days ago. Yeah,

775
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 4: And I like all you know, I was seeing it everywhere,

776
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 4: but I really took away, not just I was like,

777
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 4: I have to admit, this is not my own, this

778
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 4: is not my own, uh death data.

779
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 3: But I was listening to Esa Stare Parrell Ester Parrell.

780
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,399
Speaker 4: You know she is right, Yes, she was talking about

781
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 4: Heated even she's watching Heated Ribalry, and she was like,

782
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 4: you know what's great about it is everything in that

783
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 4: show was like good, meaning not just good in quality,

784
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 4: but like nothing bad happened in every single moment. I

785
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 4: felt this, this is something so interesting to dissect on

786
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 4: another podcast. I'm gonna throw this at you. But like

787
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 4: every episode and every moment that I thought someone was

788
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 4: gonna get rejected or murdered or beaten or made fun of,

789
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 4: like when the guy comes in the spoiler alert, the

790
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 4: guy comes down to the ice and they make out.

791
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 4: When he wins the cup, I'm like, someone's gonna throw something, because,

792
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 4: like we've been brought up basically, almost everything that we've

793
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 4: seen on television or in the in film with queers

794
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 4: like has some sort of like you know, could be

795
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 4: like negative thing, and it's just so nice to not

796
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 4: see that. And we're starting to see more of that

797
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 4: in television pluribus, I highly recommend. That's another example of

798
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 4: an amazing queer woman in a series which is just

799
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 4: inconsequential that she's queer, by the way, but actually totally consequential.

800
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 4: The Last of Us, there's an episode that's fucking great

801
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 4: between these two amazing beautiful men and like Linda Ronstat's

802
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,240
Speaker 4: playing in the background and it's just like so great

803
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 4: and you just feel their love and you understand it.

804
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 4: And so what I'm so happy about right now is

805
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:03,439
Speaker 4: the content, the creative. It's almost like being liberated. Yeah,

806
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,439
Speaker 4: you know, we're just seeing these stories. Not to say

807
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 4: that there isn't still horrible things and pain, and those

808
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 4: stories need to be telled told to We need to

809
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 4: watch every single one of them.

810
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 3: But damn it's good stuff.

811
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 2: It's really good stuff. And that that like brings me

812
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 2: to my next question.

813
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: Now we all are dying to know, are you guys

814
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: at run amok going to bring back the L word.

815
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 4: Well, let me just say what I can say. Okay, well,

816
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 4: this is good that because you can text me. You

817
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 4: can text me for all the other things that we

818
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 4: can't say on the pipe. Let's just say that, like

819
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 4: in our development slate. We're working on a lot of things,

820
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 4: and of course the L word is inspired inside of

821
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 4: our slate. Yeah, and you know, I'm sure you you

822
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 4: can expect that from the person that made the L

823
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 4: word comes X will be coming to a living room

824
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 4: or mobile.

825
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 3: Phone near you.

826
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 4: But I mean I would just say it's even it's

827
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 4: even better than that, you know, like we've got between

828
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 4: We actually have categories of content. Uh, you know, power

829
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 4: is actually one of our categories. Sex is one of

830
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 4: our categories. Fashion is one of our categories. Sports is

831
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 4: one of our categories, and in every single one of them.

832
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 4: You know. I was just saying to Eileen the other day,

833
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 4: just it's like so good because you feel this, this, this, these.

834
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 3: Are big stories. I mean, you know, Eileen is.

835
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 4: Like, uh, she's a lot. She's a lot to say.

836
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 4: She's writing six of our our series and we're also

837
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 4: working with some other really fantastic new writers and directors

838
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,879
Speaker 4: and I don't know, We've just we have a lot.

839
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 4: We have a lot happening. And I and I will

840
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 4: also say drafting, which is our new subsack for Hollywood Newsletter,

841
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 4: which we should at some point draft with someone like you,

842
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 4: you love to you love a selfie, so this would

843
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 4: be perfect for you.

844
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 3: Sure do you love a selfie? You love? You love it?

845
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 4: A T shirt saying you have a lot of deep thoughts, voicemails.

846
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 4: There's lots of things in there that you still want

847
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 4: to share. But drafting is going to expand this year

848
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 4: into long form and so so you we're gonna be

849
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 4: there's gonna be op eds, There's going to be some

850
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 4: some really fun stuff. So I will probably have to

851
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 4: come back on at some point again.

852
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,720
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, we sure were, We sure will be better.

853
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean we will. We'll figure it out.

854
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 1: And then I have a question. This is like, you know,

855
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: it's just personal. It doesn't have to be like, uh,

856
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: professional type thing. What are your thoughts on queer characters

857
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: being queer in real life? Like I think as our

858
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 1: community is very very picky about this now, as someone

859
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 1: leading the charge in a lot of these realms and

860
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 1: storytelling pieces, what are your thoughts, like, do you agree

861
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: that queer characters should be playing queer roles?

862
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 3: Do I think they should be? No, not necessarily. I

863
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,399
Speaker 3: mean I'm gonna flip it the other way.

864
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 4: I think there's great examples of people I e. Jennifer

865
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 4: Beals who have played incredible queer I mean, can we

866
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,399
Speaker 4: imagine her, imagine not having bet Porter, like come on, no,

867
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 4: and she really owned that, right and so you know

868
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 4: that gives me I still like to challenge her on

869
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 4: just like how straight she.

870
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 3: Is, but neither hair nor there. Neither hair nor there.

871
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 4: That's for her to answer on her and when you

872
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 4: have her on but no, I think that's the whole

873
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 4: point of acting. I mean, at the end of the day,

874
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 4: like I do think that I think, listen, I think

875
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 4: sexuality can very much be a spectrum. And this is

876
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 4: just my opinion, right, and I'm not you know, I'm

877
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 4: not a a you know, a queer scientist, but I

878
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 4: would just say that sexuality is a spectrum. And I

879
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 4: think when you think about film and projects, and I

880
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 4: mean I think, I don't know, if you ever saw

881
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 4: the movie Call Me by Your Name with Timothy's aime, yes,

882
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 4: I mean that was an incredible film and he was

883
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 4: incredible in it. And so I think there's examples of

884
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 4: obviously people who would like self define as straight that

885
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 4: have been one that played wonderful queer characters.

886
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 3: And I think it goes the other way too.

887
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think there's always a balance.

888
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 1: And we say this often, like, you know, we want

889
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 1: the best people in the best roles, like and that

890
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 1: even goes back to sport, right, It's like I want

891
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: to be playing next to the best.

892
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 3: So like I could not agree more.

893
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, give me what Even coaches people are always like,

894
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 1: well what about we women? Female coaches? Reverse ment, like

895
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 1: should we be giving women more opportunity?

896
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 2: I want the best.

897
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 3: I always want to be first of all. I always

898
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:44,720
Speaker 3: want the best.

899
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 4: And I think to like I think that I think

900
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 4: as we think about like uh, television or film or

901
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 4: the cinemas people like to call it. You know, I

902
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 4: think at the end of the day, when you were

903
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 4: casting for a role, and Ellison like, I'm in many

904
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 4: ways sitting on the outside of some of these decisions

905
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 4: that are being made. But there goes the luck goes

906
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 4: into casting a role. It's not even just about the

907
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 4: one person all by themselves getting that role. It's like

908
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 4: the chemistry that that person has with the other person

909
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 4: that's going to be in that role. And so I think, like,

910
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 4: you know, when you think about that nuance, I guess

911
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 4: it's just it changes everything. It's like, are these there're

912
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 4: two right people to work together? Do they have chemistry?

913
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 4: Do you know, do you want to fall in love

914
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 4: with them? Like do you want to watch them have sex? Like?

915
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 4: These are all things that to me are more important

916
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 4: than like what is their actual sexuality?

917
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 2: Yeah?

918
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 3: And yeah, you know.

919
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: It's really well put. So what's next for you, Pam?

920
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: Outside of work? I know so much as time, I

921
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: know so much right now is putting that work mask on.

922
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 1: But like I'm curious, what's how are you protecting your

923
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,399
Speaker 1: piece within your own walls right now?

924
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 4: Well, I mean I have done something pretty you know, important,

925
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 4: And three years ago I got a.

926
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 3: Cat, and.

927
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: Is uh, if you didn't have enough shit to take

928
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:04,240
Speaker 1: care of, now you've got cats.

929
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 3: She's amazing. She's a Siberian. Her name is JJ.

930
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,399
Speaker 4: She's like literally like one of my favorite people next

931
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 4: to the three boys I already have.

932
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 3: And then we we went rogue.

933
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 4: And did something we did definitely didn't think we would do,

934
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 4: and we got another cat. So now we have Gigi

935
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 4: and she's just like the cutest, littlest, like.

936
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 3: Most wonderful thing in the entire world.

937
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 4: So you know, it's like these are these are things,

938
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 4: these are real responsibilities. They come with real you know,

939
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,320
Speaker 4: they're real new dependence in my life. So no, I

940
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 4: don't know what am I doing. I mean, I'm the

941
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 4: work has really become like my my focus and my

942
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 4: passion every day.

943
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 3: I'll be damned if this thing isn't like you know

944
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 3: I am.

945
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 4: We're this This runam Uck is something that I feel

946
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:53,359
Speaker 4: like has the legitimate ability to go the distance. And

947
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 4: I love my wife and we get to hang out

948
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 4: with our we like to call our lesbian friends and

949
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 4: and you know, go out for a night of Negrony's

950
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 4: and do whatever. But other than that, just kind of

951
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 4: trying to find time to do the other things that matter.

952
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 3: When when I can make the.

953
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 2: Time, I love that.

954
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for coming on. For everyone

955
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: out there, please go support run Amuck. I think, you know,

956
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: I hope as well that I get to work with

957
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: you in the future and we keep elevating and telling

958
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: telling the stories that need to be told in authentic.

959
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 2: Ways that show up and shape culture.

960
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 1: And I think you're sitting in the middle of that,

961
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 1: you know, sport, entertainment, the influence fashion. Run a MUK

962
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 1: is sitting at the center of culture and the relevance

963
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 1: it creates, so I know it's going to go to

964
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 1: the distance because it's being led by you, and you're

965
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: a great leader and you get it.

966
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 3: Well. Thank you. Thank you for having me on your podcast,

967
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 3: and I know that we will be working together. That

968
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 3: is not even a question.

969
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 4: And I love your podcast and I'm going to keep

970
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 4: listening and watching and just keep doing.

971
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:05,959
Speaker 3: What you're doing.

972
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 2: Thanks Pam. I appreciate it.

973
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: Well, everyone, that's today's episode. We appreciate Pam coming on

974
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 1: and continuing to just elevate and drive the standard of

975
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: women in very high position. So thank you for being

976
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,280
Speaker 1: here and we'll see you all next time on Wide Open.

977
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: What I love so much about Pam is our honesty, not.

978
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 5: Just about the success, but about the space after success,

979
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 5: the part we.

980
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: Don't talk about enough. Reinvention isn't about burning everything down.

981
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's about choosing yourself in a new way. Pam's

982
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:45,760
Speaker 1: story is proof that evolving doesn't mean failure. Evolution doesn't

983
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 1: mean failure, It actually just means growth, really betting on

984
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: yourself and realizing it's never too late. If this conversation

985
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 1: resonated with you, I hope it reminded you that It's

986
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 1: never too late to pivot, redefine, or listen to the

987
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 1: quiet voice asking for more. Thank you for being here,

988
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: and we'll see you next time on Wide Open with

989
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: Ashlin Harris.

990
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:19,760
Speaker 5: Wide Open with Ashlin Harris is an iHeart women's sports production.

991
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 2: You can find us on.

992
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 5: The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

993
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 5: Our producers are Carmen Borca Correo, Emily Maronoff, and Lucy Jones.

994
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 5: Production assistants from Malia Aguidello. Our executive producers are Jesse Katz,

995
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 5: Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Jenny Kaplan

996
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 5: and Emily Rudder and I'm your host Ashlyn Harris