1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,239 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 3 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 2: is Robert. 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,639 Speaker 3: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And today we are back 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 3: with the fourth and I think for now final episode 6 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 3: in our series called The Thing Before the Beginning, which 7 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 3: has been about creation myths, and specifically the question of 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 3: what came before the creation in so many of these myths, because, 9 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 3: as we have been discussing throughout the series, most creation 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 3: narratives are not a beginning out of absolutely nothing, but 11 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 3: a transformation or ordering of some pre existing world into 12 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 3: a world that is fit for the beginning of mythic history, 13 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 3: where now there can be gods and people. If you 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 3: haven't heard the previous parts in this series yet, I 15 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 3: should probably go back and listen to those first. But 16 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 3: just briefly, we have looked at a wide range of 17 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 3: creation stories, including, but not limited to, the Chinese story 18 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 3: of Pangu, the ancient Coiled One, the Biblical creation story 19 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 3: in Genesis One, the Babylonian creation epic known as the 20 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 3: Inima Aleish, the Maori creation story about the children of 21 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 3: Rungi and Papa, the Aztec ages of the Five suns. 22 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 3: And then in the last episode we talked briefly about 23 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 3: the creation hymn of the rig Veda, the Egyptian watery 24 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 3: abyss known as the Nun or the Noon, and the 25 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 3: role of pre creation states in some new religious movements 26 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 3: like scientology and Realianism. And we've come back today to 27 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 3: round out our discussion. 28 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and just a reminder that you know, we've done 29 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 2: four episodes. We've covered a lot of ground, but we 30 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 2: can't cover all the ground, so you know, we left 31 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 2: anything out that you think, Oh man, this is this 32 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 2: is rich subject matter. They should discuss this well right in. 33 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: Let us know what you would like us to come 34 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 2: back to because just because we're closing out this series 35 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 2: for now doesn't mean we can't come back later. So 36 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 2: we'll have an email address at the end of this episode, 37 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 2: and that's the best way to get in touch with us. 38 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 3: We'll have it right now. Contact that stuff to blow 39 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 3: your mind dot com. 40 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 2: Oh man, that's kind of like the blowing of Gabriel's horn. Though, 41 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: I think we have to end the episode now. If 42 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 2: you've said the magic work, you've said it's the end. 43 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 2: I'm sorry. We'll see you next week. 44 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, but please write in with your own interesting examples 45 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 3: of creation stories, especially if they have something kind of 46 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 3: different to say about what the world was like before creation. 47 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 3: So we haven't looked at any Greek or Roman sources 48 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 3: on creation and pre creation yet, so I thought that 49 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 3: would be worth taking a brief look at in this episode. 50 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 3: And one place I wanted to look was the ancient 51 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 3: Greek poem by Hesiod known as the Theogony. This was 52 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 3: composed sometime in the eighth century BCE, and I bring 53 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 3: this up only to talk about briefly because Hesiad does 54 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 3: not go into great detail describing what the world was 55 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 3: like before creation began. He actually quite famously spends a 56 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 3: lot more time talking about what the muses had to 57 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 3: say to him, and you know, sort of his relationship 58 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 3: to this story that he's going to be given by 59 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 3: the muses more than he spends on the initial moments 60 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 3: of the describing the creation itself. But when he does 61 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 3: finally get to describing the act of creation, he famously 62 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 3: says that first came chaos, and then after chaos came 63 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 3: wide breasted gy Gya, the embodiment of the earth, the 64 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 3: always safe foundation of the immortals. So there's this contrast 65 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 3: between chaos and then the establishment of a safe place 66 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 3: to stand, which is the body of Gaya. And even 67 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 3: this very short characterization is interesting because we have looked 68 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 3: at a lot of different ideas of the chaos that 69 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 3: existed before the beginning of the world, maybe a dark 70 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 3: water world or an undifferentiated cloud of mist. But here 71 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 3: the word chaos in Greek means a vast hollow, a chasm, 72 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 3: or a gaping space. And Rob, I think this will 73 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 3: come back to something that you're going to talk about 74 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 3: later in this episode. But in Greek at least this 75 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 3: term is related to the term for a mundane chasm 76 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 3: or a regular hole in the earth. And interestingly, it's 77 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 3: also linguistically related to the human act of yawning. So 78 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 3: in the Greek sense, when you are sleepy, you yawn 79 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 3: and you make your mouth into a chasm, that has 80 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 3: something to do with the initial chaos before the world 81 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 3: was created. 82 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 2: That's fascinating. I know that, you know, I'm always encountering 83 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 2: descriptions of yawning chasms and so and it almost feels, 84 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,679 Speaker 2: at least in my mind, divorced from the act of yawning, 85 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 2: like I don't necessarily think about humans yawning such a 86 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 2: mundane thing, right when I'm imagining like the yawning chasm 87 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 2: of darkness or whatever, it happens to be yawning the 88 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 2: yawning void at the beginning of time. But that connection 89 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 2: is definitely there. 90 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of interesting because it's like, you know, 91 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 3: when you're going towards the land of sleep, that's kind 92 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 3: of when chaos overtakes your mind. You know, you go 93 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 3: into this dark space, this dark void, and maybe dreams 94 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 3: and thoughts are set loose in a very unregulated way. 95 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 3: There is a kind of chaos of sleep. And so yeah, 96 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 3: I'm not suggesting that there's any thought like that in 97 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 3: the use of yawning as a verb being related. I 98 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 3: think it has more to do with the opening of 99 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 3: the mouth, is like the creating of the gap, and. 100 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 2: It would be the most readily available metaphor to any human. 101 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, But anyway, this idea of chaos is interesting because 102 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 3: in the narrative here it seems to have connotations of infinity, 103 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 3: maybe a boundlessness and featurelessness, at least until the ground 104 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 3: of Gaya's body is established, you know, the sound foundation 105 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 3: of Guya's breast there that everything can stand on but 106 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 3: under normal conditions. If you think about it, a gap 107 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 3: or a chasm is usually only defined if it has 108 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 3: a boundary or if it is between things. It is 109 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 3: a void that exists between other established points. But here 110 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 3: it's not clear if the poet intends to suggest that 111 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 3: there was any boundary or anything for the gap to 112 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 3: be between, like there is no earth until the next 113 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 3: line of the poem. So as often imagined, this line 114 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 3: conjures a kind of paradoxical view. It is a gap 115 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 3: between no points, a whole in nothing. 116 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 2: I'm just I'm assuming we're not supposed to draw any 117 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 2: comparison between the idea of a void or a gap 118 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 2: and cleavage for Guy's breasts, because we have a lot 119 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 2: of breast related imagery here and we're talking about gaps 120 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 2: and voids. 121 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 3: No connection, that's fun. I don't know. I haven't seen 122 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 3: any scholarship to that pot. And I mean, it's just 123 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 3: I only refer to Guy as breast because it's there 124 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 3: in the poem, and just something's phrased as wide breasted 125 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 3: Guy is the description of where Guy is born. I think. 126 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 3: So the idea is that in some sense, the earth 127 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 3: is guy's body, and she is characterized as wide breasted. 128 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 3: I think just meaning like this is a broad, great 129 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 3: body that we can all stand upon. 130 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: Okay, all right, you know these sorts of questions are 131 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 2: worth thinking about because you know, we're going to come 132 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 2: back in my section later and we're going to get 133 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 2: back to the ideas of giant bodies of primordial beings 134 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: doing strange things. So you know, all of this is 135 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 2: fair game. 136 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 3: So next, I want to look at the more extensive 137 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 3: account of pre creation and what creation means in the Metamorphoses. 138 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 3: So this will bring us into the Roman period to 139 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 3: the Roman poet Avid, who lived in the first century 140 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 3: BCE to the first century CE. Avid deals extensively with 141 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 3: creation and pre creation in this narrative poem in the Metamorphoses. 142 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 3: So the poem is an interesting contrast to he see 143 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 3: it in a number of ways, most of all in 144 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 3: that it describes the pre creation state in great detail 145 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 3: and also with what I would call somewhat negative connotations. 146 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 3: So I'm going to read directly from the Metamorphoses. This 147 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 3: is going to be from book one, and I decided 148 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 3: to use Anthony S. Klein's prose translation. I was originally 149 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 3: looking at Rolf Humphrey's translation because I like that, but 150 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 3: I think this will be better because this translation is 151 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 3: more concerned with just the literal sense and less with 152 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 3: the poetics. Some of the poetry is going to be 153 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 3: lost here, but this is trying to capture the literal 154 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 3: meaning of the poem. So first Avid says that he's 155 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 3: going to he gives a short introduction and says he's 156 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 3: going to be talking about bodies changed into new forms. 157 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 3: That's a lot of what the metamorphoses is. You know, 158 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 3: these stories of magical transformations of humans into natural phenomenaic 159 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 3: rivers and rocks and trees, transformation of humans into animals 160 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 3: and all kinds of things like that, And there's often 161 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 3: a lesson to be learned in these transformations. But coming 162 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 3: to the creation narrative, Avid writes, before there was earth 163 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 3: or sea or the sky that covers everything, nature appeared 164 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 3: the same throughout the whole world, what we call chaos, 165 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 3: a raw confused mass, nothing but inert matter, badly combined, 166 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 3: discordant atoms of things confused in the one place, there 167 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 3: was no tie. And yet shining his light on the world, 168 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 3: or waxing Phoebe renewing her white horns, or the earth, 169 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 3: hovering and surrounding air balanced by her own weight, or 170 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 3: watery amftrity, stretching out her arms along the vast shores 171 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 3: of the world. Though there was land and sea and air, 172 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 3: it was unstable land, unswimmable water, air, needing light. Nothing 173 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 3: retained its shape. One thing obstructed another because in the 174 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 3: one body, cold fought with heat, moist with dry, soft 175 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 3: with hard, and weight with weightless things. So I think 176 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 3: that's a very interesting way of describing this precreation state, 177 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 3: that there are already all these things and in the 178 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 3: sense they have their own nature. There is land, there 179 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 3: is air, there is water, and they're all different things. 180 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 3: But they're also all totally mingled together in a way 181 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 3: that none of them can really be themselves, and thus 182 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 3: they are constantly fighting one another. They are in perpetual conflict. 183 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 2: Hmmm. Yeah, this is fascinating to think about it, especially 184 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 2: comparing it to some of the Chinese concepts we talked about, 185 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 2: because in a similar sense, we have extremes that have 186 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 2: not been separated yet, but they're not but they're already 187 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 2: like kind of like tangled up in opposition to each other. Yeah, 188 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 2: So you know, some some different philosophies going on here, 189 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 2: but some of the same concepts in play. 190 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not a single, undifferentiated mass. There are differences 191 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 3: within it, but the differences are not allowed to be separate. Instead, 192 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 3: the differences are forced together and thus forced into conflict. 193 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 3: And so so nothing. You know that nothing can be 194 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 3: done really, because there are no differences that allow things 195 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 3: to be done to them. You know. So all the 196 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 3: water is mixed with the land, and the air is 197 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 3: mixed with the water, and you have moist fighting dry, 198 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 3: and soft fighting hard and all that. Anyway, the poem continues, 199 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 3: this conflict was ended by a god and a greater 200 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 3: order of nature, since he split off the earth from 201 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 3: the sky and the sea from the land, and divided 202 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 3: the transparent heavens from the dense air. When he had 203 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,959 Speaker 3: disentangled the elements and freed them from the obscure mass, 204 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 3: he fixed them in separate spaces in harmonious peace. The 205 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 3: weightless fire that forms the heavens darted upwards to make 206 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 3: its home in the furthest heights. Next came air in 207 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 3: lightness and place. Earth heavier than either of these, drew 208 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 3: down the largest elements and was compressed by its own weight, 209 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 3: the surrounding water took up the last space and enclosed 210 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 3: the solid world. 211 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 2: Oh wow, I mean even in this translation is it's 212 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 2: pretty beautiful and haunting. I love it. 213 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. And so from here the creation continues. So 214 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 3: you get further descriptions of what this nameless god does 215 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 3: to establish different sort of categories or zones of earth. 216 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 3: You get these different zones of earth and sea. You 217 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 3: get the establishment of the four winds, and then eventually 218 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 3: you get the creation of human beings, you know, with 219 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 3: reason to rule over this. And in a way, there's 220 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 3: a sense that the creation of human beings, which possess reason, 221 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 3: is its own kind of imposition of order onto the world, 222 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 3: if that makes any sense, Because now there is something, 223 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 3: there is some other type of being to inhabit the 224 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 3: world and to think about it, and thus by thinking 225 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 3: about it can speak of it and create categories and 226 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 3: impose a new kind of order and order of meaning. 227 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 3: But anyway, I thought this was interesting in a number 228 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 3: of ways. So a few things I want to talk 229 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 3: about here. One is the idea that the initial chaos 230 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 3: not only is represented as undifferentiated mass and matter, like 231 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 3: in some other examples, we've talked about, but here the 232 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 3: elements and principles within the combined mass are at war 233 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 3: with one another because they are mixed, so that has 234 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 3: naturally very bad connotations. You know, we've talked about the 235 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 3: different kind of valances of these pre creation states. That 236 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 3: there are some stories where the pre created world has 237 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 3: some nice things about it, like in the Maori story 238 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 3: where it's a loving embrace, you know, and so the 239 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 3: younger beings, the children of the Sky Father and the 240 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 3: Earth Mother are crushed in between them. So that's not 241 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 3: so great for them, but for the Sky Father and 242 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 3: the Earth Mother it is there is like love in 243 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 3: this pre creation state. It sounds cozy, it sounds nice. 244 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, also reminds me of some of these examples we've 245 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 2: looked at where the pre creation state is like a 246 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 2: place of renewal. So there is something there's a lot 247 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 2: of potentiality there and therefore, you know, even if it 248 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: is stagnant and unformed and even not even you know, 249 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 2: maybe not even like fully matter, yet it has all 250 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 2: of that potential. 251 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. But I think in contrast here you 252 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 3: can say the the connotations of this pre created state 253 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 3: are pretty negative. Now you might say that Avid ends 254 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 3: up showing some good things about chaos too, because later, 255 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 3: you know, you might say that chaos creates opportunities. Chaos 256 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 3: is you know, it means like change and transformation, which 257 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 3: leads to what you might call creative destruction, or you know, 258 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 3: creates opportunities for new things to happen. But at least 259 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 3: the majority of the connotations I would say are negative. 260 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 3: And so so these things are at war because they're mixed. 261 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 3: And then you have this God who comes and imposes order. 262 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 3: The God is not named, though it could be identified 263 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 3: with the principle call nature. The unnamed God imposes order 264 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 3: by separating things. So not only does the act of 265 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 3: separating things establish and stabilize categories, this also, it explicitly says, 266 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 3: brings peace. The opposing classes of matter are no longer 267 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 3: fighting with one another. So it's like a reduction in 268 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 3: violence because the categories are created and things are separated. 269 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 3: And I think that's an interesting thing to keep in 270 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 3: mind here. The imposition of distinctions in categories in Avid's 271 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 3: view of creation is not only the establishment of order, 272 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 3: but also the establishment of peace, an end of a 273 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 3: kind of violence. 274 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:48,359 Speaker 2: Fascinating. Yeah, And I love these various hints and descriptions 275 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 2: that we get concerning just the idea that there's some 276 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 2: sort of emergence that takes place. Yeah, you know, sometimes 277 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 2: it's more expressly stated, other times it's you know, we 278 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 2: can sort of draw that out of the writing a bit. 279 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 2: But you know, this idea that consciousness of some form, 280 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 2: some sort of super consciousness eventually just kind of manifests 281 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 2: out of a system that is maybe growing a little 282 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 2: bit more complex. 283 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's interesting too. You're relating that to the 284 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 3: idea of like the god being unnamed. 285 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, like an unnamed god that you know, it 286 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 2: is maybe just entirely composed of the will to separate, 287 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 2: maybe just two things, but that will kind of like 288 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 2: emerges out of the out of the chaos of all 289 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 2: of this, and maybe that's its only act, and then 290 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 2: it passes away or becomes something else. I don't know. 291 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 3: So here order is presented, I think as a clear 292 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 3: improvement on the disorder that came before. But another interesting 293 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,479 Speaker 3: thing about Avid's view is what happens in the rest 294 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 3: of the poem, all of Avid's story of the history 295 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 3: of the gods in humanity after this initial act of creation, 296 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 3: scholars have noted that throughout the Metamorphoses, Avid repeatedly depicts 297 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 3: a tendency of the world to slide back toward the 298 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:15,719 Speaker 3: initial chaos. In other words, the chaos and the state 299 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 3: of material war in which the world began is not gone. 300 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 3: That's not just in the past. In fact, this is 301 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 3: recalling a discussion we had in the last episode about 302 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 3: the Egyptian creation, a pre creation state, that there's a 303 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 3: kind of lingering presence of this chaotic pre created world, 304 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 3: these chaotic waters. It's sort of a place you can 305 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 3: go back to, and also a principle that creeps in 306 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 3: on our orderly reality. I think you could say very 307 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 3: much the same is true in Avid's view of the world. Chaos, Yeah, 308 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 3: it's not gone. It is something more like entropy. It 309 00:18:54,640 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 3: is temporarily held back by organizational efforts, and multiple points 310 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 3: in avid story, chaos strikes out and asserts itself again, 311 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 3: and so you can get big, major disastrous instances of this, 312 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 3: like Jupiter's flood. There's a flood narrative in the Metamorphoses 313 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 3: in which you know, the great god Jupiter sends a 314 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 3: floods wipes out one age of humanity, and this if 315 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 3: you think about it represents a remingling of land and sea. 316 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 3: You know, we already did the work of establishing that 317 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 3: order of separating land and sea they're different. Now, well 318 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 3: I'm going to mix them all up again. So it's 319 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 3: like we're losing progress, We're going back toward that chaotic 320 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 3: pre ordering state. And then you could also view throughout 321 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 3: the poem the metamorphoses themselves the central kind of thing 322 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 3: in the poem, where you'll have a character who gets 323 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 3: transformed into a tree, or a character who gets transformed 324 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 3: into a river or an animal or something. These metamorphoses 325 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 3: them are violations of category distinctions, and so you could 326 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 3: view them as undoing the careful work of separating things 327 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 3: that gives us the order we know. So it is 328 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 3: a story in which the chaos that existed before the 329 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 3: ordering of the world is not gone. It's a principle 330 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 3: that's always creeping back in. It's like the growth of weeds. 331 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 3: I feel like that's a metaphor that's come up on 332 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 3: the show several times recently, but I think it fits here. 333 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 3: It's always trying to creep back in and requires effort 334 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 3: full reassertion of orderly principles and distinctions in order to 335 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 3: keep everything separate and at peace. 336 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, especially on the part of human practitioners of 337 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 2: religions and rituals. 338 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah. 339 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 2: I also love this idea that all of the divine 340 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 2: acts could maybe be loosely divided into acts of acts 341 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 2: of division and separation and acts of combination and convergence. 342 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's interesting too. And you know, the acts 343 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 3: of the acts of mingling and remixing and thus re establishing, 344 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 3: you know, creating new insertions of chaos. I think they're 345 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 3: not always bad because, as I mentioned earlier, like they're 346 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 3: usually bad for the person they're happening to in the story, 347 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 3: but they also create these interesting lessons and transformation points. 348 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 3: So I don't know if Avid would say that the 349 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 3: chaos and the mixing is always one hundred percent bad, 350 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 3: but it seems generally less preferable. 351 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's a mashup. You know. Mashups can be great. 352 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 2: They can be a little rough around the edges, and 353 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 2: you know, and then there's a how to and how 354 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 2: do the original artists feel about the combination? 355 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 4: Yeah. 356 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 2: Now, for our next section here, let's move on into 357 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 2: Norse mythology. We're going to be talking about something known 358 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 2: as the Ganunga gap. This is pretty this is pretty interesting, 359 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 2: and this is basically a pre creation state. And for 360 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 2: this topic I turned to Before the Creation in Old 361 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 2: Norse Mythology, Empty Abyss or Crowded Place by Daniel Sofborg, 362 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 2: professor of Scandinavian Studies at the University of Tartu, published 363 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 2: in the Abyss as a Concept for cultural theory in 364 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. 365 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 3: I assume that's a book. Yes, yes, okay, that would 366 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 3: be a really focused journal. 367 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this is the book, and I have not 368 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 2: read the rest of the book, but I read this article. 369 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 2: This one is publicly available if you look around in 370 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 2: the usual places to get your academic papers. 371 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 3: And. 372 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 2: Sodborg's work is also available elsewhere. But this is going 373 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 2: to concerns specifically. It's going to concern a few different 374 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 2: sources for Norse mythology. But one of the main things 375 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 2: he's talking about here is the eedic poem known as 376 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 2: the Voluspa. So this is usually dated to pre Christian 377 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 2: Pagan tenth century Norse culture, and it concerns a serious 378 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 2: diviner by the name of Volva. And in this bit 379 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 2: I'm about to read she is supposedly speaking to the 380 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 2: god Odin as well as to other gods and human 381 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 2: beings as well. So in translation it goes like this. 382 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 2: It was at the beginning of time when nothing was. 383 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 2: Sand was not nor sea, nor cool waves. Earth did 384 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 2: not exist, nor heaven on high. The mighty gap was 385 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 2: and this is gap var ginnega. This is reference in 386 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 2: gnaka gap. So we'll see like different versions of that, 387 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 2: but not growth. So again the mighty gap was, but 388 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 2: not growth. So the character Volva here is telling us 389 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 2: that prior to creation, we didn't have sand, we didn't 390 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 2: have sea, we didn't have waves, we didn't have earth, 391 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 2: we didn't have heaven. All we had was a vast gap. 392 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 3: It brings us back very much to this thing we 393 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 3: talked about with he Sid Yeah. 394 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so Sabborg, as he details in this paper. 395 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 2: The nature of this gap has long been a matter 396 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 2: of linguistic debate. Depending on how you tease a part 397 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 2: of the different translations, it might mean yawning void. It 398 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: might mean an enormous, mighty void or a magical power 399 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 2: filled void. With both of these these these latter two 400 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 2: translations certainly implying like the potentiality of that void like 401 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 2: it's it's empty, but there's something about it, there's something 402 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 2: that could become, you know. Okay, And so the Norse 403 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 2: concept here is often compared to prevailing interpretations of Christian 404 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 2: mythology in Christian creation stories, and we'll get back to 405 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 2: how that plays into all of this as well. But 406 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: then there's what happens next in the narrative here in 407 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 2: this particular work, the Voluspa, and that that is the 408 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 2: suns of Burr quote lifted up the lands or the earth, 409 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 2: those who created or gave shape to the glorious mid Guard, 410 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 2: you know, the middle world, the world between the sun 411 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 2: shone from the south on the halls, on the Hall 412 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 2: of Stones. Then the soil was grown over with green plants. 413 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 2: So we get some we get some creation of some 414 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 2: earth creation going on here. 415 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 416 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 2: Now, Sofborg points out that various interpretations of this text 417 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 2: position it as Earth being raised out of a primordial sea, 418 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: but he stresses that this is generally passed on without evidence, 419 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 2: and that the sea interpretation kind of becomes a tradition 420 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 2: of interpretation concerning this work, but one without clear basis 421 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 2: in the text. So it would seem more likely that 422 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 2: the lands are emerging out of the void, out of 423 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 2: the gap, not out of a sea. It's just like 424 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 2: you know, coming in from other sources. Some scholars have said, well, 425 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 2: the void is the sea, the void is a primordial scene. 426 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 3: I love this note about the interpretive tradition becoming assumed 427 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 3: as part of the narrative itself, and I think often 428 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 3: we really overlook how much of that there is in 429 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 3: all kinds of narratives that we hold. Dear, I'm familiar 430 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 3: with tons of examples of this throughout the interpretation of 431 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 3: the Christian Bible. There are all these things that are 432 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 3: not part of the text of the Bible, but people 433 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 3: always picture and assume when they're thinking about a Bible story, 434 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 3: and it just becomes part of the story, such that 435 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,479 Speaker 3: many Christians will even regard these things as canonical facts, 436 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 3: even though the books don't say it. Just one example, 437 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 3: how many how many wise men are there that visit Jesus? 438 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 2: Oh, there's three. We've all we've we've heard the song, 439 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 2: we've we've we've looked at the the little statues that 440 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 2: we put out at Christmas, We've we've watched people re 441 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 2: enacted it's three wise men. 442 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 3: Three, yeah, three three kings, three wise men. Actually, the 443 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 3: Bible story doesn't say how many there are, just says 444 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 3: Magi came. So we don't know where there're three, where 445 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 3: they're ten, where there're two. Doesn't say it's not there 446 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 3: in the text. But the fact that there are three 447 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 3: is so often assumed and pictured in the story. It 448 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 3: has this feeling of canonicity. Yeah, you can't change that, 449 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 3: But the story doesn't say. 450 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 2: They bring three gifts. You can't have three gifts brought 451 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 2: by four people. You can't have three gifts brought by 452 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 2: two people. It must be one, per right. 453 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 3: No, you could have three gifts brought by two people. 454 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, all in We could be in one 455 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 2: gift bag. You know, we always depict each one holding it. 456 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 2: It could be one gift bag. Yeah, And then it 457 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 2: could it could be like three hundred magi and one 458 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 2: just hands over the gifts bag and says, this is 459 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 2: from all of us. We all went in on this. 460 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 3: Well, I just say this to emphasize it's so interesting 461 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 3: how when there are stories where we regard the details 462 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 3: of the story is very important. Even then people just 463 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 3: sort of like details that aren't in the text itself 464 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 3: attach themselves to it and seem to become part of 465 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 3: the understanding of it, even if they're not there in 466 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 3: the words. 467 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and you know. And sometimes it is stuff 468 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 2: that is brought in from other texts, like, for instance, 469 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 2: in this mentioned the sons of Burr being involved here. 470 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 2: In other texts, we come to know that the sons 471 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 2: of Burr are Odin, Vili and v But there's no 472 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 2: indication in these lines who these individuals are, where they 473 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 2: get their power, in what capacity they existed or didn't 474 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 2: exist in this primordial gap, nor how they accomplish the 475 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 2: feet of raising up earth from voice. Absent from all 476 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 2: of this, the author points out, are the familiar Norse 477 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 2: creation motifs that I think most of us know from 478 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 2: various works on even instructional educational videos about Norse mythology 479 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 2: concerning the giant Yemir, and we've talked about this in 480 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 2: the show before, but the author points out that these 481 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 2: are rooted not in this particular pre Christian work, but 482 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 2: in Snorri Stirlson's thirteenth century CE pros Eda Da, which 483 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 2: was composed in twelve twenty to be exact. Obviously a 484 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 2: product of Christian times. The pros Eta drawing on Scholtic poetry, 485 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 2: reveals that there were places prior to the creation of Earth. 486 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 2: So it lays out a pre creation world in which 487 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 2: there's no Earth yet there is a gap, there is 488 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 2: a void, but there are also other realms that already exist. Specifically, 489 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 2: there's Niffelheim, the cold world of myths, to the north 490 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 2: of the gap, and then fiery must bell or must 491 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 2: be behind to the south of the gap. So you 492 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 2: have icy world up here, fiery world down here, and 493 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 2: in between nothing yet. 494 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 3: That's interesting. Now, I don't want to assign motive to 495 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 3: the development of the story like this, though it strikes 496 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 3: me as interesting that this addresses the kind of paradox 497 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 3: that we brought up with he Siad, where you know, 498 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 3: if the first thing there is is a chasm, or 499 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 3: the first thing there is is a gap before there's 500 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 3: an earth inh Heesio it's telling. It naturally raises questions like, well, 501 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 3: in the mundane sense, a gap is between things, or 502 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 3: it's a hole in something, So what's it in? What 503 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 3: are the boundaries? And there you just don't know. You 504 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 3: don't really know what's intended, but you can start to imagine, well, 505 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 3: maybe there are things on either side before the Earth 506 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 3: is created. I wonder if you could imagine a similar 507 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 3: kind of developmental logic here. Well there, if it's a gap, 508 00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 3: it has to be a gap between something. 509 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 2: It could well be part of it. Cyborg doesn't doesn't 510 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 2: get into that so much, but but definitely points out that, Yeah, 511 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 2: this is a rather different create pre creation story. Yeah, 512 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 2: not a magical void, but a true gap between two 513 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 2: places that already existed, which seemingly had names, had their 514 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 2: own dynamic natures. You know, they're active realms. They're not 515 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 2: you know, they're not stagnant, and the creation of Earth 516 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: occurs when these two forces converge. Now I think we've 517 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 2: covered this before, but this is this is what occurs 518 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 2: according to the pros Eda quote, And when the rhyme 519 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 2: and the blowing of the warmth met so that it 520 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 2: thawed and dripped. There was a quickening from these flowing 521 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 2: drops due to the power of the source of the heat, 522 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 2: and it became the form of a man, and he 523 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 2: was given the name Yimir, but the frost giants call 524 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 2: him r Golmere. So so yeah, we have this, you know, 525 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 2: very evocative vision where these two extremes are kind of 526 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 2: come together, mingling, and this life form emerges out of 527 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 2: these two dynamic systems, and I think this is all. 528 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 2: You know, this is an evocative idea as well, because 529 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 2: we think about the part of the world where this 530 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: idea is situated, and we can imagine, you know, people 531 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 2: noticing the interplay of fire and ice, of summer and winter, 532 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 2: of snow and geothermal heat even Yeah, and you know 533 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 2: that's a dynamic system. Dynamic things happen. There's no God 534 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 2: that creates Ymir, there's no prime mover in this situation. 535 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 2: He just kind of emerges out of the interplay of elements, 536 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 2: and then additional creation occurs out of Yamir. We've discussed 537 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 2: this before, at least different tellings of this in the 538 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 2: show before. But the main examples that the author here 539 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 2: draws on are Ymir's left armpit sweat becomes the giants cool, 540 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 2: his feet have sex with each other and produce more 541 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 2: giants awesome. The great Cow emerges from the fine rhyme. 542 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 2: The cow licks salty stones to form or reveal the 543 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 2: first human Bury, who begets the sun burr. And then 544 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 2: this son marries a giant woman and has three sons. 545 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 2: Odin VILLI and V and then the three sons according 546 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 2: to Uh. To the the Eda, here kill Yamir and 547 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 2: create the world out of the rest of his body parts. 548 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 3: Oh okay, another killing, killing the monster and making the 549 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 3: world with the body. Yeah, like we saw in the 550 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 3: It's like in the Alias. 551 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and specifically it says that, like they take Yamir 552 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 2: to the middle of the gap and make out of 553 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 2: him the earth, and you know, and they go and 554 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 2: it lifts through the various things that are made. You know, 555 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 2: the teeth become this, the mowers become that we've we've 556 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 2: talked about this in the show Wore. The blood becomes this. Uh. 557 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 2: And this is something that is explored in other myths 558 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 2: elsewhere around the world. You know, the body of the 559 00:33:53,320 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 2: giant becomes the world. So again, it's only at this 560 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 2: point in the pros at A story that the world 561 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 2: is created. Prior to that, we have multiple worlds, we 562 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,839 Speaker 2: have different races and so forth. It is not an 563 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 2: empty void at all. It is like a full blown, 564 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 2: you know, campaign world that's already in place. So Software 565 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 2: points out that in the pros Eda, Stirlsson does quote 566 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 2: this pre Christian work, the Voldspa the work of divination 567 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 2: is talking you know, about the gap and and has 568 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 2: no mention of giants. But he gets much of his 569 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 2: details from a different work, a tenth century poem called 570 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 2: the Vafthruthnismal. And this is a This is a very 571 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,280 Speaker 2: giant heavy work that features no gap, no burr, no brewery, 572 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 2: no lifting up of anything, only body part related creation. 573 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,320 Speaker 2: And again, meanwhile, the older Vola Spa is giant free. 574 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 3: Okay, so this one lots of giant chunks, no gap, right. 575 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 2: So Software contends that the Voldespa and the vaf thoth 576 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 2: Nismol are essentially telling two different contradictory pre Christian Norse 577 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 2: creation myths. Yet in this and he points out that 578 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 2: this is of course standard. We've already discussed examples of this, 579 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 2: where various old mythologies have multiple creation stories. These are 580 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 2: often told orally at in different places and time and space, 581 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 2: and they may have different agendas, different things they are 582 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 2: attempting to reveal about the world and ourselves, while also addressing, 583 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 2: you know, the big unanswerable questions about what came before 584 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 2: us and yet what happens we you know, scholars enter 585 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 2: into this, but also just normal people are drawn to this, 586 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,839 Speaker 2: especially in our modern age. We want the cannon version, right, 587 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,240 Speaker 2: we want the codified version. What is the full story? 588 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 2: And so scholars will, as the Softborg points out, take 589 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,280 Speaker 2: these two and try to harmonize them. Take two myths 590 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 2: and form them into one. 591 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 3: Right, because only one thing could have happened. Therefore we 592 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 3: got to kind of mix them together. And that's what happened. 593 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 4: Yeah. 594 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 2: He has a nice little sentence here that I think 595 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 2: summarize this. He says, quote, the fixed forms belong to 596 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 2: literacy and bookish societies, and so you know that's our obsession, 597 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 2: and we want the fixed forms, but that's not what 598 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,399 Speaker 2: we see when we actually look back in these old 599 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 2: mythic systems. 600 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 3: Well, if we can be tendentious, allow us once again 601 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 3: to take up the lance for having multiple stories of 602 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 3: the same things. That's great. 603 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the Joker and the Batman movies, right, yeah, Yeah, 604 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 2: he has multiple creation stories that he shares and they 605 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:51,320 Speaker 2: all tell you something about who he is. So anyway, 606 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 2: this is exactly what Stirlson apparently did. He attempted to 607 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 2: create a single, cohesive, cohesive creation narrative out of two 608 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 2: separate stories with added did supplemental information and also leaning 609 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 2: on various interpretations that streamlined things. And the version he 610 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 2: created didn't exist in the pre Christian Norse world, to 611 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 2: be clear, but it became highly popular in the Middle 612 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 2: Ages and became the most commonly presented version of Norse 613 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 2: myth for centuries upon centuries to follow into our modern age. 614 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 2: You know, pick up a school book about Norse mythology, 615 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 2: or look for you know, look at a quick rundown 616 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 2: of it somewhere online, and you'll inevitably find these these ideas, 617 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,320 Speaker 2: you know, this mixing of the two void and giant 618 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:36,240 Speaker 2: and so forth. 619 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 3: This is really interesting because it comes back to a 620 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 3: principle we talked about, I think in the very first 621 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 3: episode of this series, just the happenstance of certain textualization 622 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 3: events that became popular text forms of a myth to 623 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:55,360 Speaker 3: later be interpreted as the original or the canonical form 624 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 3: of the myth, when in fact they might not have 625 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,959 Speaker 3: any particular claim to being like the most to widespread 626 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 3: or most widely believed, or the earliest version. They're just 627 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 3: the version that happened to enter the text stream at 628 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,760 Speaker 3: a certain point and became a popular text. 629 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, yeah, and you know, there are the things 630 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 2: about this combined version in the Prosta. For instance, the 631 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,800 Speaker 2: sacrificial concept the killing of Yumir by the gods, seemingly 632 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,720 Speaker 2: had no basis in pre Christian traditions among the Norse, 633 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:33,280 Speaker 2: not specifically with this particular sacrifice, and while also really 634 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 2: at the same time he apparently really gets in and 635 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,439 Speaker 2: dwells on some of the weirder elements, like the feet 636 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 2: having sex with each other. 637 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 3: He was really into that. 638 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, according to Sofborg anyway, perhaps putting 639 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 2: a little more emphasis on that stuff. And so this 640 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 2: is how he Softhborg sums it up, he says, quote 641 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 2: Snorri's interpretation of the Pagan Norse mythology is indeed heavily 642 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 2: influenced by Christian worldview and education. But when he creates 643 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 2: his version of it in his learned work, choosing between 644 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 2: various elements and versions of the creation story, his choices 645 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 2: rather increase the distance between the Christian and the Pagan view. 646 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 2: The tendency and its literary purpose are in my interpretation, 647 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 2: to mark the Pagan religion as false, bizarre, and nasty. 648 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 3: Oh huh, So I think that's huh. 649 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 2: That's interesting because we've we've talked about examples of this 650 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 2: on the show before. You know, plenty of them. Where 651 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 2: you think about the codifying of a pre Christian religion 652 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,440 Speaker 2: by say colonial powers or somebody spreading the Christian faith. 653 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 2: It's often viewed as this attempt to bring them together, 654 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 2: to say like, hey, you have this figure in your religion. 655 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,799 Speaker 2: It's kind of like Jesus. Well, let me tell you 656 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 2: about Jesus, and let's draw these two ideas together. In 657 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 2: those it kind of comes back to the idea that, 658 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 2: you know, gods are bringing things together or pushing things apart. 659 00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 2: And we often think about this being an exercise in 660 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,399 Speaker 2: pushing two concepts closer together, but then leaning things into 661 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 2: the Christian concept. And here we would we arguably see 662 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 2: an effort to do the opposite, to distance the two things, 663 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 2: to show no, no, no, Christianity is here, these beliefs 664 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,440 Speaker 2: are way over here, and there's less connective tissue between 665 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 2: the two. 666 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,839 Speaker 3: But ultimately having in my view, the opposite effect of 667 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 3: making the pagan beliefs actually seem cooler by being weirder. 668 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's you know, it's not like 669 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,719 Speaker 2: I guess one is a surefire recipe, and I don't 670 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 2: think it's Also, it's also not to imply that like 671 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 2: this was maybe like the prime this is not the 672 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 2: prime motive behind the prosetta as well, but just maybe 673 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 2: one of the factors in its creation. So Soborgan's up 674 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,760 Speaker 2: ultimately arguing that there's actually more connective tissue between Biblical 675 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:54,359 Speaker 2: creation narratives and the original pre Christian photospa a count 676 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 2: and that this wouldn't be due to any kind of 677 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,799 Speaker 2: direct influence. So scholars tend to agree that the Volospa's 678 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,320 Speaker 2: unknown author was you know, in all likelihood a committed 679 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:10,279 Speaker 2: pagan and not someone intentionally introducing foreign Christian concepts into 680 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 2: Norse culture. However, that doesn't mean that the popularity of 681 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,319 Speaker 2: Christian stories and Christian concepts elsewhere in the world at 682 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 2: the time didn't exert an influence. And this would have 683 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 2: been a wide world that far traveling vikings had access to. Okay, 684 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 2: So Sofborg doest pull out a specific example of what 685 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,719 Speaker 2: you know could have influenced it, or you know, sort 686 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 2: of pointing to the kind of influence that might have 687 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 2: taken place. He points to an eight hundred CE Christian 688 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 2: poem written in Old High German. This is titled Vessel 689 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:52,760 Speaker 2: Bruna Gabbat, and this details a formless pre creation state 690 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 2: with very similar details and structure to what is discussed 691 00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 2: in the Voluspa. Here it is in translation, it's gonna 692 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,839 Speaker 2: sound very familiar. This I found from Men as the 693 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 2: foremost wisdom, that neither earth there was, nor sky above, 694 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,759 Speaker 2: nor tree nor hill. There was, nor stars there were, 695 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 2: nor shone the sun nor moonlight. There was nor the 696 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 2: salty sea. Nothing there was neither en nor limit. So 697 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,759 Speaker 2: the German poem here of course reflects, and you know, 698 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,480 Speaker 2: we have some caveats here, but basically reflects the second 699 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 2: and third century shift in Christian theology away from the 700 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 2: idea of a primordial chaos and into this idea of 701 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 2: a primordial nothing. And so, yeah, this is such an 702 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:41,240 Speaker 2: interesting concept, an interesting idea here that the potential weaving 703 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,359 Speaker 2: of ideas across cultures and across times. So you could 704 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 2: have pre Christian potentially you could have pre Christian pagan 705 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:55,759 Speaker 2: mythological concepts that were themselves influenced by Christian thought that 706 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 2: was going to be popular, you know, mainland continental Europe 707 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 2: at the time. 708 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, or if I understand correctly, maybe possibly just influenced 709 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,799 Speaker 3: by Christian imagery and storytelling, even if the full theology 710 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 3: is not being brought. 711 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:15,480 Speaker 2: Over right exactly, like just just some you know, I 712 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,399 Speaker 2: have state to use the word entertaining, though I think 713 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 2: entertaining is always in the mix fulfilling, I don't know, 714 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,359 Speaker 2: thought provoking, you know, these are all aspects of story. Yeah, 715 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 2: but it's something in the story. I think you're right. 716 00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 2: The storyteller is key here, especially when we're considered concerning 717 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 2: oral narratives that would have been passed on, you know, 718 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 2: from one voice to another, from one yawning mouth to another. 719 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 2: And so yeah, it's interesting to think about that that 720 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 2: these are shaped by the storytellers, and the storytellers move around, 721 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 2: they listen to each other, and both intentionally and unintentionally, 722 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 2: they take a little bit of the stories they've heard 723 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,320 Speaker 2: and form them into the stories they're telling. 724 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 3: Well, we're going to have more to say about the 725 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 3: storyteller tomorrow, aren't we. 726 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, yeah, little little spoiler, we're going to 727 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 2: be discussing, for my money, one of the best episodes 728 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 2: of Jim Henson's The Storyteller series as our Weird House 729 00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:11,799 Speaker 2: Cinema selection. So We're going to get into the meat 730 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 2: of that as well, the power of the storyteller. 731 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 3: Okay, well does that do it for the series? 732 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:17,719 Speaker 2: For now? 733 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,040 Speaker 3: We're done with the thing before the beginning, at least 734 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:21,920 Speaker 3: for now. 735 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 2: But maybe that's right unless more pre beginnings become apparent 736 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,400 Speaker 2: to us and that sucks us back in, you know, 737 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,759 Speaker 2: continual renewal in the nun if you will, so, yeah, yeah, 738 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:34,640 Speaker 2: right in. We'd love to hear from you. Just a 739 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 2: reminder for everyone out there. Stuff to Blow Your Mind 740 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,400 Speaker 2: is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes 741 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,480 Speaker 2: on Tuesdays and Thursdays, short form episodes on Wednesdays and 742 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 2: on Fridays. We set aside most serious concerns to just 743 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,760 Speaker 2: talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. Wherever 744 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 2: you get the podcast, whether you're listening to us on 745 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,960 Speaker 2: any of the various podcast platforms out there, or watching 746 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 2: us on Netflix, and if you haven't checked that out too, 747 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 2: go check it out. If you have a Netflix membership 748 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:01,759 Speaker 2: or do you want to sign up for one, We 749 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 2: are there in audio and video format wherever you're listening 750 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:10,160 Speaker 2: to us, though, just rate, review, subscribe, remind me thumbs 751 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,359 Speaker 2: up two thumbs up stars. Whatever the case may be, 752 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,000 Speaker 2: those are all little little gestures you can use that 753 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 2: help us out in the long run. 754 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 755 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 756 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,120 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 757 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,080 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 758 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,880 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact stuff to Blow your 759 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:32,759 Speaker 3: Mind dot com. 760 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,360 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 761 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,240 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 762 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:57,720 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 763 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,080 Speaker 3: Press read to rat Rat Rat