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Speaker 1: Welcomed Unobscured, a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Minky.

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Speaker 1: Our final guest for Unobscured Season four is Helen Rappaport.

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Speaker 1: When we wanted to understand the inner workings and daily

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Speaker 1: life of the Romanov household, there was no question who

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Speaker 1: that person should be. Helen Rappaport is a fellow of

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Speaker 1: the Royal Historical Society and her many books are the

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Speaker 1: best there is when it comes to Nicholas, Alexandra and

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Speaker 1: their children. And of course Dr Rappaport is also a

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Speaker 1: brilliant writer. As others have already said, she is a

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Speaker 1: rare combination of talents, deep and sensitive insight expressed in

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Speaker 1: a clear and fresh style. For many years, she has

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Speaker 1: presented and consulted for TV and audio projects and translated

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Speaker 1: Russian works for the theater. Her signature is to express

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Speaker 1: both the fact and the feeling of the past, and

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Speaker 1: we're so glad she joined us to do that once again.

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Speaker 1: Here Unobscured writer Karl Nellis talked with Dr Rappaport about

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Speaker 1: the Romanov family and it's a privilege to all for

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Speaker 1: their conversation in full. So we end this season of

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Speaker 1: Unobscured where we began with Nicholas, Alexandra, their dynasty and

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Speaker 1: their downfall. This is the Unobscured Interview series for season four.

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Speaker 1: I'm Aaron Manky for Unobscured Podcast. I'm Carl Nellis, and

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Speaker 1: today we have the privilege of talking with Dr Helen Rappaport,

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Speaker 1: distinguished historian who has written a small library of excellent books,

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Speaker 1: including a few on the Romanovs and and their period,

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Speaker 1: their time, their lives in Russia. Uh. Dr Rappaport is

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Speaker 1: a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society, and she's still writing.

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Speaker 1: She has a new book coming out called After the Romanovs,

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Speaker 1: Russian Exiles and Paris that will be out soon from St.

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Speaker 1: Martin's Press. I'm excited to read that, as well as

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Speaker 1: the books that I've already read. UH. From her. Dr Rappaport,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much. It's an honor to have you

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Speaker 1: on Unobscured. Thank you for asking me so I'm delighted

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Speaker 1: to talk with you because of how valuable your work

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Speaker 1: has been in our process of researching and understanding the

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Speaker 1: lives of Nicholas and Alexandra, their children, their time. Um.

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Speaker 1: You've written so many landmark books on Russian history. For

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Speaker 1: for English readers, what what drew you to the last

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Speaker 1: Romanance in particular? Well, it's it's interesting how I got

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Speaker 1: into the Romanos, because it was actually by accident. When

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Speaker 1: I first started being interested in and wanting to write history,

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Speaker 1: it had never crossed my mind to do the Roman

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Speaker 1: I was, I guess, because I thought it was all

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Speaker 1: a bit saccharine and chocolate boxy, you know, all those

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Speaker 1: romantic pictures of girls in frocks and big hats and

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Speaker 1: all the playing and ceremony didn't appeal to me. Um.

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Speaker 1: It was an agent was with at the time when

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Speaker 1: we were sitting discussing what book I was going to

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Speaker 1: do next during a horrible hiatus between books, and we

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Speaker 1: were kind of stumped a bit, and he said, well,

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Speaker 1: why don't you do the Romanos And I said, oh, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't appeal to me at all. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: too chintsey for me. And he said, we'll go away

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Speaker 1: and think about it. And actually he gave me a

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Speaker 1: very good hook for exploring the Romanos, to which for

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Speaker 1: which I'm eternally grateful, because I said to him, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to do a whole great, big comprehensive biography

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Speaker 1: of the Romanos or a huge study of the rain

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Speaker 1: I said, I'm much more interested in the detail and

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Speaker 1: some particular point in the story. And so I said, well,

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Speaker 1: why don't you look at the end of their lives?

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Speaker 1: And when I went away and looked and homed in

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Speaker 1: and focused on the very end of their lives, I

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Speaker 1: pretty much from when they were imprisoned at the Alexander Palace,

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Speaker 1: and and I honed it in even closer to the

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Speaker 1: last two weeks of their lives in a Cashemberg in

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Speaker 1: the party of house. I suddenly realized there was a

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Speaker 1: really interesting and exciting scenario there that had never been explored,

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Speaker 1: which was looking at the family really close up. How

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Speaker 1: were they, what was going through their minds? How did

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Speaker 1: they deal with captivity? What were the tensions being trapped

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Speaker 1: in a house in western Siberia, knowing that probably the

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Speaker 1: writing was on the wall. So my interest in them

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Speaker 1: began with that very brief period at the very very

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Speaker 1: end of their lives, the last two weeks. And it

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Speaker 1: was while I was writing that book that I first

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Speaker 1: began to develop a sense of those poor not poor,

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't call them, Paul, Those lovely four girls locked

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Speaker 1: away in that house, and and there's their lives cut

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Speaker 1: short so cruelly, and I began to feel that they

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Speaker 1: had never really enjoyed an identity in books about the Romanos.

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Speaker 1: It had always till then been about the mother and

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Speaker 1: the father and the hemophiliac brothers. So at that point,

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Speaker 1: when I finished a cashion Berg, I felt there was

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Speaker 1: more to look at, and that took me into the

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Speaker 1: next book, which was exploring almost really exploring the domestic

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Speaker 1: life of their own nos, what was it like behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes for them as a family, And then the

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Speaker 1: third book really led on from that because the one

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Speaker 1: niggling thing I still felt I had not explored at

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Speaker 1: the end of two books on the rown Nos was

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Speaker 1: why couldn't they be saved? Why could no one get

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Speaker 1: them out of Russia? And I felt too that that

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Speaker 1: had been rather sort of skimmed over in existing books,

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Speaker 1: also partly because of lack of documentary evidence being made

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Speaker 1: available by the Ashan's at the time. So that took

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Speaker 1: me to my third book, which is exploring why they

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Speaker 1: couldn't get them out. So by accident, I've kind of

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Speaker 1: written three books about them. M hm, Well and what

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Speaker 1: you do get into exploring their domestic world. It is

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Speaker 1: so moving beyond the the political presence of the czar,

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Speaker 1: you know, the empress and what they were doing. The

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Speaker 1: way that you explore the daily lives, the routines, the

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Speaker 1: the close relationships within the family, challenges with health, things

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Speaker 1: that I've never read before. I really appreciated the way

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Speaker 1: that you render all of that in your books. Well,

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Speaker 1: thank you, So let's go. Let's start with with Nicholas

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Speaker 1: and Alexander and then come forward and I really hope

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Speaker 1: we'll spend a lot of time with with the girls

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Speaker 1: and and the household once once the children are all there.

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Speaker 1: But starting with Nicholas and Alexandra, when you started looking

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Speaker 1: at them, were there were there aspects of them as people,

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Speaker 1: their personalities that that caught your interest or imagination. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think what was most interesting about them initially was

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Speaker 1: the fact that, unlike actually every European royal couple, they

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Speaker 1: actually were allowed to marry for love, which was a

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Speaker 1: very rare thing. When you look at Queen Victorian busily

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Speaker 1: arranging the dynastic unions all her children and her grandchildren

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Speaker 1: and them all into marrying and marrying cousins and second cousins.

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Speaker 1: The almost unique thing about Nicholas and Alexandra was it

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Speaker 1: was a long protracted love that began when she was

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Speaker 1: only about twelve years old when Nicholas first saw her,

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Speaker 1: and he kind of carried the torch for her until

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Speaker 1: she was until they met again in oberg In. So

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Speaker 1: it wasn't an enduring affection between them. It wasn't something

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Speaker 1: they would pushed into as a dynastic union, nor was

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Speaker 1: it a sort of spur of the moment love affair.

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Speaker 1: It was something that had been growing for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and of course she initially was deeply resistant to agreeing

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Speaker 1: to marry him, even though she loved Nicholas. It was

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Speaker 1: a very genuine love between them because of her Lutheran faith,

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Speaker 1: and that was a real obstacle at first, so that

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Speaker 1: that had to be overcome. A family prejudice also had

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Speaker 1: to be overcome, in the sense that Queen Victoria was

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Speaker 1: pretty adamant initially at the thought of her precious granddaughter

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Speaker 1: Alexandra Alicki as they called her, marrying into the Russian throne.

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Speaker 1: Queen Victoria was absolutely against the idea of Alicki areing

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Speaker 1: Nikki young Nicholas at Sarayevitch of Russia because she felt

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Speaker 1: Russia was very unstable, very unsafe. I mean, even then

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Speaker 1: by the eighteen eighties and nineties there was his history

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Speaker 1: of political assassination and um, you know, Nicholas's own grandfather

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Speaker 1: had been murdered by revolutionaries, so they had to overcome

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Speaker 1: quite a lot of obstacles. And we're an utterly devoted couple,

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Speaker 1: and so that it did interest me and intrigued me

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Speaker 1: because of course Alexandra, um, for those who are new

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Speaker 1: to the topic and these um, these people. Of course,

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Speaker 1: Alexander was not Russian, and she was Lutheran. Can you

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Speaker 1: say a little bit more about why her being Lutheran

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Speaker 1: made it a difficult choice to marry Nicholas. The problem

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Speaker 1: for Alexandra, as a German Lutheran from Hessa by Ryan,

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Speaker 1: was that to marry the Sallyevich of Russia, the rule

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Speaker 1: of Russia, there was one absolute rule that had to

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Speaker 1: be observed, and it was a requirement for marriage, and

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Speaker 1: that was she would have to convert to Russian Orthodoxy.

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Speaker 1: There is no way she could have retained her Lutheran

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Speaker 1: German Lutheran faith and be a future Sari Saris of Russia.

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Speaker 1: So this was hugely challenging period for her because she

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Speaker 1: loved Nikki, but she did not want to abandon her

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Speaker 1: Lutheran faith. Alexandra had all been always been pretty religious

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Speaker 1: and pious and very observant. So it was a really,

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Speaker 1: really difficult period because eventually it was her sister Ella

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Speaker 1: who helped persuade her, because Ella, too, like alex Alexandra,

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Speaker 1: married a Russian. She married Grand Dukes Sergey, but without

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Speaker 1: all the AGONI sing about adopting the Russian authox faith,

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Speaker 1: Ella embraced it pretty much immediately and then persuaded Alexandra

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Speaker 1: to also do likewise, so she couldn't have married the

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Speaker 1: Sadievitch unless she had adopted Russian orthodoxy. Mm hmm, what's

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Speaker 1: And of course, then the the interesting thing that happens

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Speaker 1: is that she becomes more Orthodox than the Orthodox. You know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes people who adopted or embrace the new religion become

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Speaker 1: even more almost fanatical about their new religion as converts

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Speaker 1: than if they had been born into it. So she

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Speaker 1: she ended her life being profoundly Russian Orthodox. That's beautiful,

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Speaker 1: that's perfect. Um. On Nicholas's side, how did he see?

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Speaker 1: So that's a great kind of point of contrast, because

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Speaker 1: of course he was born not just into Russian Orthodoxy,

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Speaker 1: but into the Roman dynasty. Yeah. So if alex is

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Speaker 1: at first hesitant and then over the course of her

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Speaker 1: time becomes deeply devoted to Russian Orthodoxy and of course

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Speaker 1: her family, how did Nicholas approach this legacy that he

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Speaker 1: inherits his role as are his place place in the

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Speaker 1: Russian Church, in the Romanov family? What did it look

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Speaker 1: like from Nicholas's perspective, Well, of course Nicholas originally had

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Speaker 1: he had an older brother who should have been so,

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Speaker 1: but who died young. Uh. And then, to make matters worse,

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Speaker 1: he was thrust into onto the throne unexpectedly when his

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Speaker 1: father fell sick with kidney disease, when Alexander the third

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Speaker 1: fell ill with kidney disease and died in his forties.

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Speaker 1: Now that the problem from for Nicholas right from day

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Speaker 1: one was that he should probably had another twenty years

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Speaker 1: to prepare for becoming zare So he hadn't learned the

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Speaker 1: tools of the trade, He hadn't learned states craft, state craft.

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Speaker 1: He was timid and frightened and terrified of the enormous

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Speaker 1: responsibility of becoming Zar in his twenties, when of course

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Speaker 1: he would have expected it becomes our maybe in his forties.

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Speaker 1: So but he took it very very seriously and in

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Speaker 1: a very kind of dogmatic and rather narrow way in

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Speaker 1: that he simply a decided or a declared rather from

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Speaker 1: the moment he became z. But he would preserve the

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Speaker 1: autocracy handed to him by his father, Alexander the third,

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Speaker 1: exactly as passed down to him. And he was always

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Speaker 1: deeply stubborn about not changing anything in the way in

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Speaker 1: which Sardom operated as handed down to him. So he

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Speaker 1: was never an innovative or forward thinkings are He stuck

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Speaker 1: very much to the old way of doing things that

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Speaker 1: his father had done before. And you mentioned that Alexandra

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Speaker 1: coming in was a deeply pious Christian as a Lutheran,

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Speaker 1: and then she joins this family and this new faith.

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Speaker 1: Can you say a few words about how her faith

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Speaker 1: related to this sense of what it meant to be

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Speaker 1: as are? You know? Was she devoted to autocracy as

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Speaker 1: a matter of faith? Absolutely? I mean in Russia, autocracy

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Speaker 1: and orthodoxy went absolutely hand in hand that that they

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Speaker 1: were the cornerstone I mean to be czar, you had

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Speaker 1: to be Orthodox, and they had this absolutely implacable belief

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Speaker 1: that in the divine right of the czar, pretty much

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Speaker 1: like the divine right of kings even in Britain back

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Speaker 1: in the seventeenth century. So you know, it was a

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Speaker 1: god given role that Nicholas had this duty to perform,

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Speaker 1: and he had to perform it in the absolute traditional

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Speaker 1: manner in which it had been handed down to him.

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Speaker 1: And Alexandra very much believed in this idea that they

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Speaker 1: were a little mother and little father of the nation,

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Speaker 1: the martush Bartuska, as they were called by the peasantry,

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Speaker 1: and that the peasantry looked up to them unquestionably with

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Speaker 1: unquestionable loyalty and devotion. And she believed that stubbornly right

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Speaker 1: to the very end, that the people really loved them.

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Speaker 1: And of course, by the time the revolution, many of

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Speaker 1: the people didn't love them at all anymore, and the

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Speaker 1: whole kind of a gloss of the protective fathers nar

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Speaker 1: had completely gone and being tarnished. But they both believed

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Speaker 1: in this god given right to rule and to protect

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Speaker 1: the throne and pass it down to their beloved son

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Speaker 1: m So that says a little bit about how they

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Speaker 1: saw their relationship to the people. In your writing, there's

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Speaker 1: a really interesting turn when Alexandra first enters Russia and

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Speaker 1: Russian society, where she also has to navigate relationships with

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Speaker 1: the Russian court. And you know, maybe she has this

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Speaker 1: adamant devotion to autocracy and the sense that it's a

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Speaker 1: divine legacy over the people. But it seems she makes

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Speaker 1: a mistake, a misstep, maybe with Grand Duchess Vladimir. Well,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't say it was a misstep. I think part

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Speaker 1: of the problem was Grand Duchess Vladimia, along with the

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Speaker 1: Dodger Empress Maria Fjorda Rovna, had been the duyennes of

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Speaker 1: high society in Russia and Saint Petersburg, and Vladimir in

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Speaker 1: particular was stunningly wealthy, had the most magnificent jewels, probably

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Speaker 1: as magnificent as the Zarisa herself, and she was kind

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Speaker 1: of Queen Bee of Russian society. Now along comes a

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Speaker 1: new young Zarisa um and Vladima expects her to take

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Speaker 1: her place in society and be up there hob nobbing

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Speaker 1: with the aristocracy and making appearances in Petersburg and you know,

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Speaker 1: going to all the right balls and receptions and this,

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Speaker 1: that and the other, And from day one Alexandra stubbornly

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Speaker 1: resisted all that. She really really did not want to

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Speaker 1: be part of Saint Petersburg society. She was extremely reserved,

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Speaker 1: almost hostile to what she perceived as very headonistic, aristocratic,

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Speaker 1: indulgent society in the big city, in the capital city.

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Speaker 1: She didn't want to have a family and bring up

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Speaker 1: a family in that environment. So Vladimia was very disapproving

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Speaker 1: of Alexander not taking a proper place in society, and

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Speaker 1: they did rub each other up the wrong way, particularly

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Speaker 1: as Grand Duchess. Vladimia also and her husband, who was

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Speaker 1: the most senior Russian Grand Duke, had always had aspirations

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Speaker 1: to the throne coming down to them and their their

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Speaker 1: children if an air was never produced. So there was

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Speaker 1: a certain animosity and antagonism between them. Um, and it

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Speaker 1: got worse. But it didn't get worse really until later

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Speaker 1: on in the rain. Could you say a few more

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Speaker 1: words about the urgency felt by Nicholas and Alexandra to

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Speaker 1: produce a male heir. Oh, it was enormous. The pressure

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Speaker 1: on them was particularly on Alexandra, I mean her role really,

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Speaker 1: I mean, okay, but she had this, she had the

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Speaker 1: good fortune to marry for love. But her role essentially

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Speaker 1: once she was di Itza was to produce a male heir,

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Speaker 1: because in Russia the throne was passed down by male

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Speaker 1: children only. This law had been brought in by Sir

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Speaker 1: Paul the First because he had hated his mother, Catherine

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Speaker 1: the Great so much he wanted to ban women from

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Speaker 1: ever inheriting the Russian throne, so he brought in the

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Speaker 1: law that it had to go through the male line

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Speaker 1: until all male lines in the Romanov family being exhausted

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Speaker 1: before it could pass to a woman. So the pressure

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Speaker 1: on Alexandra from day one, first of all, was to

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Speaker 1: produce children, but particularly to produce a boy. And I

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Speaker 1: think gets almost impossible to imagine the enormous emotional and

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Speaker 1: psychological pressure on her over a period of ten years

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Speaker 1: to produce a boy and to keep having girls. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and not only that difficult pregnancies, big babies. I mean,

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Speaker 1: she must have suffered physical agonies producing those four girls

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Speaker 1: in in fairly quick succession. And then finally this longed

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Speaker 1: for boy. And of course all the church bells rang

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Speaker 1: and gun salutes were fired all over Russia, and everyone

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Speaker 1: was celebrating the Birthard Sarayevitch and then this horrendous tragedy

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Speaker 1: befalls them. Now, this longed for beautiful child, and he

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Speaker 1: was a very beautiful baby turns out to be hemophilia.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm yeah. Um. To stay with Alexandra for a moment,

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Speaker 1: you movingly describe her many ailments over the course of

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Speaker 1: her life, from lar pregnancy, sciatica, heart trouble, headaches of

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Speaker 1: facial graia, and eventually you note that she kind of

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Speaker 1: embraces invalid life as a burden from God. Um. Can

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Speaker 1: you describe kind of when she began to experience these

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Speaker 1: health challenges where they related to the pressure and stresses

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Speaker 1: of the Russian court? Um? And then how did they

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Speaker 1: manifest kind of in her day to day life. Well,

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Speaker 1: to begin with, I think Alexandra clearly was plagued with

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Speaker 1: sciatica from her teens. Because one thing that is very

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Speaker 1: interesting when when I looked into the detail of her

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Speaker 1: courtship with Nicholas, was that between her mother dying in

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Speaker 1: eight she's spent a lot of time back and forth

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Speaker 1: doing England, spent a lot of time with Queen Victoria

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Speaker 1: when it was announced she was going to marry Nikki

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Speaker 1: in April eight four after they got engaged in Coburg

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Speaker 1: at a family wedding. That one of the first things

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Speaker 1: Queen Victoria arranged when Alexander went back to England with

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Speaker 1: her to prepare, you know, for her a future wedding,

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Speaker 1: was to get her to Harrogate in Yorkshire for treatment

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Speaker 1: for this crippling scietic pain she suffered from. So she

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Speaker 1: was sent to Harrogate for a water cure, and and

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Speaker 1: that was the first, probably of many later on in

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Speaker 1: her life, after she'd had the children. They she went

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Speaker 1: more than once, I think, to bad Noihan in Germany

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Speaker 1: for again for water cures. So she had always had

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Speaker 1: the scietica And I cannot imagine how painful her pregnancies

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Speaker 1: must have been. Suffering from sciatic pain and carrying you know,

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Speaker 1: ten eleven pound babies to term. She must have been

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Speaker 1: dreadfully um consumed by pain at times, and she was

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Speaker 1: often I had to be lying down. But on top

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Speaker 1: of that, I think a lot of her problems may

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Speaker 1: we can't be sure, because there's never any very good

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Speaker 1: medical reports about her, and if they were, they were never,

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Speaker 1: you know, they were never shared. The documents weren't shared,

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Speaker 1: although I did find one that I managed to access.

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, it's difficult to judge at what

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Speaker 1: point a lot of her problems became psychosomatic as a

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Speaker 1: way of avoiding having to go into society. Because time

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Speaker 1: and again, I, you know, I saw letters and comments

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Speaker 1: or diaries from the girls or members of court. Oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, the family would do to go to the

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Speaker 1: theater or to something, and Alexander would either drop out

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Speaker 1: or go home early because she wasn't feeling well. And

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Speaker 1: she was all the always the party pooper, you know,

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Speaker 1: the one who you know was indisposed. And so time

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Speaker 1: again you see Nicholas taking his girls to the ballet

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Speaker 1: or to the opera without their mother, and Alexandra just

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Speaker 1: wasn't a presence socially at all. Alexandra, time and time again,

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Speaker 1: the girls would say a little note so in their diaries, O,

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Speaker 1: mother couldn't come down to lunch because she had a

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Speaker 1: headache and she wasn't feeling very well. They lived with

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Speaker 1: a sick mother to the point where I think their

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Speaker 1: young lives were almost blighted by it. Those girls were

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Speaker 1: her care, as as simple as that, and I think

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Speaker 1: as time went on, you have to wonder the extent

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Speaker 1: to which Alexandra exploited her indisposition and this thing she

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Speaker 1: kept claiming about having, you know, her heart beating too fast,

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Speaker 1: and then she genuinely had terrible ear infections and me

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Speaker 1: grains and oh gosh, there wasn't almost any complaints she

356
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Speaker 1: didn't at sometime suffer from. So that kind of colored

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Speaker 1: family life, I think more than perhaps we realize. MM.

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Speaker 1: So you've mentioned diaries and medical reports, and of course

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Speaker 1: one of the other forms of records that interested readers

360
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: probably know about are the numerous letters that Nicholas and

361
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Speaker 1: Alexandra wrote to each other. Because because they wrote in English, right, well,

362
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Speaker 1: there is a big gap in the letters. We have

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Speaker 1: to be careful saying that the real correspondence between Nicholas

364
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Speaker 1: and Alexandra that survives is the warriors correspondence, and only

365
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Speaker 1: by a fluke, because Nicholas didn't get around to destroying

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Speaker 1: all the letters Alexandra wrote to him. So the wartime

367
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Speaker 1: correspondence is predominantly her long haranguing letters to Nicholas telling

368
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Speaker 1: him to do this, that and the other, and complaining

369
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Speaker 1: about the girls being hormonal and argumentative and um, you know,

370
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Speaker 1: it's telling him to sack this minister and higher that minister.

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Speaker 1: The Warrior letters are very revealing of her controlling influence

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Speaker 1: over him. But there there isn't much prior to that,

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Speaker 1: because once the revolution broke and Alexandra and the children

374
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Speaker 1: were underplaced under house arrested at Sasol at the Alexander Palace,

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Speaker 1: Nicholas was away at the front of army headquarters. Once

376
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Speaker 1: they were locked away there, Alexandra started burning all her journals,

377
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Speaker 1: her letters. The girls burned an awful lot of stuff

378
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Speaker 1: as well. Tragically, she burned all the letters she had

379
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Speaker 1: from Queen Victoria. There was I mean, everything went up

380
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Speaker 1: in smoke except her diaries for the last year or

381
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Speaker 1: so of her life. So we've lost a huge amount.

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Speaker 1: But the Warrior Warrior letters between predominantly her letters Nicholas,

383
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Speaker 1: as I said, are fascinating in what they reveal. Mm hm.

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Speaker 1: So let's go back to early in their marriage because

385
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: one of these figures that might seem strange, uh and

386
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: and might not have entered the story for someone who

387
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Speaker 1: has briefly read about them, is the figure of Monsieur Philippe. Yes, well,

388
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Speaker 1: he was the kind of precursor to rescue what happened

389
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Speaker 1: with Alexandra being so so desperate and as a woman

390
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Speaker 1: and a mother myself, I can't understand that sense of desperation,

391
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: the disappointment of a fourth daughter when she knows the

392
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Speaker 1: precures and expectations that she's got to produce a son

393
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Speaker 1: and heir. What did she do? She started going to

394
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: alternative practitioners, to an assortment of seer's faith heil as, quacks, gurus,

395
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: all kinds of people were kind of suggested to her

396
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Speaker 1: and pushed in her direction because she, more than Nicholas,

397
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 1: was clutching at stores, desperate, desperate to find help or

398
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Speaker 1: away of ensuring she had a male heir. And at

399
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: one point she was introduced to Monsieur Philly met Philly

400
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 1: by fellow relatives within the Romanov family who had also

401
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: been courting him as an alternative faith healer come practitioner.

402
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: They had consulted him about their son who had been ill.

403
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: Now Monsieur Philly was a sort of French of society therapist,

404
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: come faith healer, come guru, not really a trained doctor

405
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: at all, but he kind of blagged his way to

406
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: a position of social interest in France. He'd practiced in

407
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: Leon and developed quite a following there, and word filtered

408
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: through to Russia that you know, he was offering advice

409
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: on how to conceive a male child to women who

410
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: were desperate to do that, and of course he was

411
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: steered in the direction of Nicholas and Alexandra, and for

412
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: a brief while he offered advice. Most of it I

413
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: think was a sort of mixture of cod medicine and quackery.

414
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: The juries out a bit on Metro Philip in that

415
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: more recently, some people, certainly in France and in French sources,

416
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: seemed to have begun to or maybe they have always

417
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: done so, begun taking him a bit more seriously than others. Generally,

418
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: sources from Russia and in English tend to dismiss him

419
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Speaker 1: as being an outright quack. I'm not convinced that he was.

420
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: He might he might have had a few useful things

421
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: to suggest, And of course he he predicted prophetically that

422
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: you know, she would have a boy child eventually, and

423
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: that there would be another one like him, another friend

424
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: who would come along and help her, help Alexandra. So

425
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: he was only around a couple of years and sort

426
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: of effectively was sent packing with lots of extravagant gifts,

427
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: including a huge motor car. Do we know, do we

428
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: know what Nicholas thought of him? Well, the thing with

429
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: Nicholas's interesting. I mean, Nicholas was always kind of a

430
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: step or two behind in the disk, you know, took

431
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: a step or two back from all this because he

432
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: basically pandered to Alexandra because she was pretty neurotic, totally

433
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: bound up and obsessed with having a male child, as

434
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: one could imagine, and once she set her mind that

435
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: the certain practitioner or guru was going to help her,

436
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: she would throw his sy fits essentially if she didn't

437
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: get her way and didn't get to see this person.

438
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: So he was tended to be more tolerant of these

439
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: faith healers and people that Alexandra wanted to consult. So

440
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: I think he perhaps took Metro Philip with a pinch assault,

441
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: as did most people. Um. He once said over us

442
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: spouting later that he would rather have ten ra spoutins

443
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: than one of Alexandra's, who are hysterical fits. He lived

444
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: with a very neurotic sick wife. I think he had

445
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: more than one cross to bear in his life. Really.

446
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: And then, of course the girls they're living, as you said,

447
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: with the sick mother m right, that they inhabited an intimate,

448
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: highly protected, domestic world created by their mama and papa. Yeah,

449
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: in a few minutes describing their world, maybe it's it's routines.

450
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: What were its horizons, how narrow? How could find? Was it? Well?

451
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: I've already said that Alexandra was very disapproved being of St.

452
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: Petersburg society. So the four girls only had occasional trips

453
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: into St. Petersburg to the opera or the ballet, or

454
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: or some event at the occasional, very occasional ball. Nine

455
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: times out of turn it was Nicholas who took them,

456
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: or if Alexandra went, she left early. And they were

457
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: so starved a company of their own age. And you

458
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: can see it when you look at all the photographs

459
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: of the girls in their teens as they're growing up.

460
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: There are endless photographs of them surrounded by the officers

461
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: of the entourage, the older women in the entourage, all

462
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: the men of the regiments of which they had an

463
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: honorary command. And you see these loads and loads of

464
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: photographs of these pretty young girls surrounded by older men

465
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,959
Speaker 1: in military uniform, and I kept asking myself, where are

466
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: the younger people of their own age? They were only

467
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: really ever allowed to associate with a few select of

468
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: this as from the entourage, mainly from the stars escort,

469
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:09,719
Speaker 1: occasional visits from male and female relatives, not that often.

470
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: I mean the children of their own level that they

471
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: saw probably most often would be their cousins by Nicholas's

472
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: sister Zena and her husband, Grand Duke Alexander. So but

473
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: generally they had to learn very quickly to be sufficient

474
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: unto each other, i to live, to inhabit their own world,

475
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: the four of them, and be self sustaining and self

476
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: supporting them. Because of that, they were indeed very close.

477
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 1: But there was another big, big reason why they led

478
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,959
Speaker 1: such sheltered lives, quite apartment Alexandra's disapproval of the world outside,

479
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: which she thought would corrupt them. And that was of

480
00:33:55,360 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: course Alexey. Because once Alexey was born, in for the

481
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: fact that his hemophilia had to be kept an absolute

482
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: state secret, they didn't even tell Nicholas's mother or sisters

483
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: at first, and and and also as soon as he

484
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: was born, they pretty much withdrew from ever spending time

485
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: at the Winter Palace in Some Petersburg. They lived their quiet,

486
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: secluded family life at the Alexander Palace fifteen miles out

487
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: of St. Petersburg, and pretty much drew down the shutters,

488
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: mainly because they had to protect alex A from scrutiny people.

489
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: They didn't want people to see that he was often

490
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: sick or you know, limping because he banged a limb

491
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: or something, and they had to protect him from accidents,

492
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 1: from running around falling over hurting himself. So they kind

493
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: of had to cocoon that little boy, and they all

494
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 1: rallied around and pretty much closed ranks. That's why, uh.

495
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 1: And also I guess there was a third reason why

496
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: the family lived fairly secluded lives, And this was as

497
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: time went on and the revolutionary movement was growing. Attacks

498
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: on the Romanov family, on Imperial Russian officials, on prime

499
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: ministers and ministers and governors, you name it. There are

500
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: assassinations going on left, right and center, including Alexandra's brother

501
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: in law, Grand Dukes a gay who was blown to

502
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:35,319
Speaker 1: bits in five That was her sister Ella's husband. So

503
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: pretty much after that they again retreated even more because

504
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: quite simply the threat of attack, assassination, kidnap on the

505
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,439
Speaker 1: whole family became really quite serious. So there were lots

506
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: of reasons for them to live a quite secluded life.

507
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: Would you say just a little bit more about why

508
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: they felt so strongly they needed to keep Alexis humophilia

509
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 1: a secret, because how could you have the young Tsaryevitch,

510
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: who would it was going to inherit the throne of

511
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: enormous Russian empire of god knows how many millions of people.

512
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: I can't remember how big it was at that that time,

513
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 1: But they couldn't let it be seen that effectively the

514
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: boy had a life threatening, threatening condition that would have

515
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: could and should have killed him by probably in the

516
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: mid teens. That couldn't be known. They didn't want the

517
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: Russian people to know that Saryevitch was sickly. He had

518
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: to be perceived as this godlike, beautiful child who was

519
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: going to save Russia, the hope of Russia, he was

520
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: referred to. So that's why they kept the whole thing secret.

521
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 1: And it wasn't n til later on when he had

522
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: a very serious flare up of his seem ophelia, But

523
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 1: it finally got out mainly via the British and American

524
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: pressing impact MHM. And across your books on the Romanovs,

525
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: you note that the daughters were often lumped together as

526
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: a group in in the press. Um you know, the

527
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: the artmath O T m A just kind of crushes

528
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: them all into a mass, while Alexei was given special attention.

529
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 1: But that was also true within the family as well

530
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: as in the press. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting Alexandra herself.

531
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: You know, you've seen endless pictures. First of all, she

532
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: often the girls often all dressed alike, but right from

533
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: quite an early age here is she split them into

534
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 1: two groups, the big pair Olga and Tatiana and the

535
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 1: little pair Maria an Anastasia, and they again, within those

536
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:01,240
Speaker 1: two groups, tend to dress alike. And she often referred

537
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: to the girls collectively or as the big bear and

538
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 1: the little bear, and not by name. It was as

539
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: though the girls were just the the adjunct to their

540
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 1: much more important brother. And in terms of the Russian people,

541
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 1: you know, they were the pretty set dressing. They looked lovely,

542
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: they turned up at all state occasions looking exquisite, but

543
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: they were just the set dressing. And for this reason

544
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: you get the sense that they had no personalities. And

545
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 1: that's really what was the primary impetus for me in

546
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: writing The Romano Sisters was I wanted to show they

547
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: were actually four very different personalities, very interesting girls in

548
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: their own right, and not just completely bland and character

549
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: lists and anonymous. And they've been sort of homogenized till then.

550
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: Maybe my way of teasing out a little bit their

551
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: differences and that kind of thing, could you say more

552
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: about out how personally pious was the whole family and

553
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 1: what did devotion look like for the different daughters relative

554
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,479
Speaker 1: to mother's practices. But they're their own people, So they

555
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 1: were a very quietly religious family. I think what I

556
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: admire about them if they know perhaps Alexandra would lecture

557
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: some of her friends and ladies in waiting in her

558
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 1: letters and things about religious faith and belief. But the

559
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,919
Speaker 1: girls were quietly high us and religious and observant, very

560
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 1: very devoted, all of them were. The religion actually was

561
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: what held that family together. And I have always felt,

562
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: and I think I said in my books, in one

563
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: of my books that it reminded me of a saying

564
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: that was coined during the Second World War. I think

565
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: about Roman Catholics families which was the family that praised together,

566
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: stays together, and religion and their faith. I have no

567
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 1: doubt it was their religious faith that held them together

568
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 1: through all the crises over alex A. There you know,

569
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: the times when he had terrible bleeding episodes and nearly died,

570
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 1: And undoubtedly without their religious faith, I don't think they

571
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:26,879
Speaker 1: would have got through their captivity um as courageously as

572
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: they did if they hadn't had an absolute power of

573
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,879
Speaker 1: faith and and and acceptance towards the end to get

574
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: a very strong sense of the family in the house,

575
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: the catching book of their acceptance of what may or

576
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 1: may not happen. I think Alexander certainly was reconciled, became

577
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: much more religious in the last few weeks of our life,

578
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: and the girls really were deeply observant, just like their parents.

579
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,280
Speaker 1: How would you describe the way that Alexei figured into

580
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 1: the budding relationship between the Romanos and resputed and when

581
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: he comes on the scene, Ah, it's it's difficult with Alexey.

582
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 1: I found evidence that alex A kind of laughed at

583
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 1: Respus in a bit behind his back and found him

584
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: a bit odd and weird. But then Anastasia did too,

585
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: and they sometimes giggled because he was a bit strange

586
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: with that deep, sonorous voice and those huge, mesmerizing blue eyes.

587
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 1: So but I think towards the end Alexey could recognize

588
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 1: that Rasputin was their friend. You see, they referred to him.

589
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: All of the children predominant and the parents as well

590
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 1: referred to him as their friend. And this is where

591
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: people get raspute In wrong. They think it's all about

592
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 1: this miraculous faith feeling which has been wildly misunderstood, overrated,

593
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: and misrepresented. What really mattered about Rasputin to the family

594
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 1: was that he was one of the very very few

595
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: people they trusted because, like I've said, they lived very

596
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: isolated lives at a time where the revolutionary movement wanted

597
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: them all dead and removed from power. But Rasputin. Rasputin

598
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: was kind of like a wise guru to them. But

599
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: the primary function he performed initially for Nicholas and Alexandra. Sorry,

600
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: my dogs just can haffing and puffing in the background.

601
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: The primary function Rasputin performed initially when Nicholas and Alexandra

602
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: first met him was as a wise counselor. They sat

603
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 1: and talked to him for hours and hours about matters

604
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: of faith, about the concerns about Russia, the Russian people,

605
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: and religious matters. He would spend time telling the children's

606
00:42:55,520 --> 00:43:00,320
Speaker 1: stories from the Old Testament. They loved him, They really

607
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: loved him as as a as a wise and fascinating personality. Um. Sorry,

608
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: my dog's being noisy. She does come in from a walk, yes. Um.

609
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: So the thing with Rasputin was, initially he was a

610
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: wise girl to the family and a wise counselor, and

611
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: that really was a more important function almost someone she

612
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,439
Speaker 1: did for Alexa Because people have this idea that Rasputin

613
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 1: was in and out the back door and up the

614
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,760
Speaker 1: stairs and into the Alexander Palace every five minutes, into

615
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: you know ingratiating himself and muttering prayers over Alexey. And

616
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 1: that's not the case. He only came when he was invited.

617
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: He didn't make that many visits to the Romanos at

618
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 1: the Alexander Palace, and he often went long period not

619
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: seeing the family or communicated by telephone with them or

620
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: by letter or telegram. Um. But what he did do

621
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: and his really crucial function as far as alex A

622
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 1: was concerned. When he was suffering episodes of bleeding and

623
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: swelling of the joints. Was he had this incredible auto

624
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 1: suggestive power, an ability to calm. And one of the

625
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: most important things when a child or a patient, or

626
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 1: the mother of the child is stressed and anxious, as

627
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: Alexandra was, when Alexey had this terrible attacks of leading,

628
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: was to calm, calm her, and through calming her, that

629
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: was transmitted to the child. And it can't alex say,

630
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 1: and I think this is one of the key points

631
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: in understanding how what he did worked. I can't explain it.

632
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: He had some kind of also suggestive powers. The best

633
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: equivalent I can give, and and I came to it

634
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 1: a while back. It's like a horse whisperer, only I

635
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: call him a people whisperer. What rast Booting could do

636
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: was calm and reassure a stressed person, a sick person.

637
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: And in fact, it's very interesting because peasants in Russia

638
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: Light Russia Light rasp Boutin, who had a pleasant background

639
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: in Siberia, had a technique with their animals. If the

640
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: animals hurt themselves and were bleeding, or were anxious or stressed,

641
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 1: they would they had a talking cure like a horse

642
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 1: whisperer with animals, and it was called zagavarivat kraff to

643
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 1: talk to the blood, to calm the blood, to stop

644
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,800
Speaker 1: the bleeding. So this was a technique not unique to

645
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: us Spoutin, but it was Some think that he had

646
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: learned by instincts. His father had been a horse trader,

647
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,919
Speaker 1: and he'd learned it in Siberia as a young young man.

648
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: So I think he had that kind of order, suggestive gift.

649
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: But he also I think the most important piece of

650
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 1: advice he gave the Romanos was that rust when Alex

651
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 1: he was in pain, the last thing they should administer

652
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 1: it to him was aspirin, which had come into use

653
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 1: as a pain killer, because aspirin, of course thins the blood,

654
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: and the last thing you want to give to him

655
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: of feeling hacks blood thinners. So and he also the

656
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 1: other advice he always gave them was don't let the

657
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: doctors fuss around him and interfere with him too much.

658
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,280
Speaker 1: And I think this sort of standing back and hands

659
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:55,240
Speaker 1: off advice seemed to seem to work. It seemed to work.

660
00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 1: Mhm um at what. At one point in your book

661
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: on the Romano Sisters, you describe the student as an opportunist.

662
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: Would you say a little more about what you mean there? Well,

663
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,359
Speaker 1: I I don't mean that really about the Romanos. I

664
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 1: mean that in that when he first arrived at Petersburg

665
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: and people discovered this wise guru, he became very fashionable,

666
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: and all these society ladies, ladies flock around him, and

667
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 1: their photographs of him sitting surrounded by admiring women, and

668
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,280
Speaker 1: they brought him gifts, and they gave him beautiful clothes,

669
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 1: and they fared him and flattered him. And I think

670
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: in that sense he was an opportunist. You know, if

671
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: somebody wanted to give him money or take him out

672
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 1: for a good dinner, he was more than happy to oblige. Um.

673
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: In terms of the Romanos, he actually complained at one

674
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 1: point that he only got to go to the palace

675
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: and see them when they ordained that he should go,

676
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 1: which confirms really what I said earlier about him not

677
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: having the freedom to walk in and out by the

678
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 1: back door. So he did. He did exploit the fascination

679
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: there was for him initially in Saint Petersburg, and and

680
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: was wined and dined, and you know, very well looked after,

681
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 1: and entertained and lived well on it for a while.

682
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 1: You mentioned that Alexey and and the stage that maybe

683
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: they giggled that rescue. What did Olga or Tatiana Maria?

684
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 1: What did the other daughters think of him? And they

685
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 1: took him very h Olga in particular, talk took him

686
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 1: very seriously and even wrote him a note asking his

687
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: advice when she fell in love and and wanted to

688
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: know what to do. So the girls took him more.

689
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: The older two probably took him more seriously than the

690
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: younger two. But Anna state it would make fun of

691
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 1: everyone and laugh behind people's backs. That was just her

692
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: kind of personality. But they certainly believed in him as

693
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: a friend and couldn't bear all the horrible things that

694
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 1: were said about him, And of course they were distraught

695
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:08,800
Speaker 1: like their mother when he was murdered. Mhm mhm. How

696
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 1: how damaging to Alexandra were the salacious rumors about her

697
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 1: relationship with him that eventually would reach the press and

698
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 1: the cord and the public. Well, they were appalling, and

699
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 1: they were absolutely crucially damaging, because not only within Russia

700
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 1: was she parried, paraded and demonized and featured in ugly

701
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 1: sexual cartoons with rasputing some of them quite pornographic. In fact,

702
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: these were in circulation in Russia, but of course this

703
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 1: spread across the Western press in Britain and America. The

704
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: gossip was appalling, you know, the talk that they were

705
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 1: having a sexual relationship was utterly absurd, and when people

706
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,280
Speaker 1: ask me about it, I'll say, I'm just not going

707
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 1: there because it's so ridiculous. But the trouble is all

708
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:03,800
Speaker 1: that scandal and gossip, and it was absolutely fetid, based

709
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 1: on the third fourth hand gossip and rumor and innuendo.

710
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 1: There was not a grain of truth in any of it,

711
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: but of course that kind of mud, if there's enough

712
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,439
Speaker 1: of it, sticks in the end. And it meant that

713
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: what happened during the war years when Russia was an

714
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 1: ally of Britain and France against Germany, Alexander, because she

715
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 1: was German, was accused of being a German spy, and

716
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 1: the the ramification of that was that she and Rasputin

717
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 1: were both German spies and in the pay of Germany

718
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 1: and potting to bring down Russian The most hideous calumny

719
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 1: and really libeless things were said about. They were very cruel,

720
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 1: they were hideous, actually, and it tainted it tainted the

721
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: attitude of many of the royal houses of Europe when

722
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 1: it came to trying to get them out. I think

723
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 1: that was one of the problems, was that kind of

724
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 1: the royals of Europe really liked Alexandra for various reasons,

725
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:10,359
Speaker 1: but unfortunately some of them had brought into all that

726
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 1: appalling gossip. Mhm, that's powerfully powerfully said, thank you. Um

727
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:27,800
Speaker 1: you describe Alexay's injury in early October nineteen twelve. Uh, Well,

728
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 1: alexa over the years would go through long here is

729
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 1: a sort of remission where he wouldn't have a bad

730
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: episode of bleeding, and they would all hold their breath

731
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: and think, Oh, it's wonderful, he's doing really well. And

732
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: it's really tragic because he had had about episode in

733
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 1: nineteen o seven, But between nineteen o seven and nineteen

734
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 1: twelve he'd been doing quite well and hadn't had any

735
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 1: really really bad attacks. But then in nineteen twelve, in

736
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:58,439
Speaker 1: the autumn of nineve the Romanos went off to one

737
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 1: of on a trip to what was Poland what is

738
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,760
Speaker 1: Poland now but was then part of the Russian Empire,

739
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 1: the big forest near Yellowish and they went to one

740
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 1: of their big imperial hunting lodges there, and it was

741
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 1: while they were staying there that alex say Alexey was

742
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 1: always very reluctant to do as he was told, and

743
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: he constantly be told by his minders, and he had

744
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: a couple of minders who were with him all the

745
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 1: time not to jump and leap around, and he risked

746
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 1: banging himself, which he did one day getting into a boat.

747
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: He jumped into a boat and bashed his hip and

748
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,439
Speaker 1: it started bleeding in the joints and at the top

749
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: of his spy. And he stabilized within a week or

750
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:45,840
Speaker 1: so and seemed to be better, and the family moved

751
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 1: on to their other hunting lodge, as smaller, much more

752
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: modest one at spa In again in Poland, in the

753
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 1: Polish forest, and he seemed again to be on the

754
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: road to recovery then, but he was really getting very

755
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 1: fed up with being told by his mother. Dayned out, no,

756
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:05,800
Speaker 1: you can't do this, You can't go off on the bicycle,

757
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 1: he can't ride a pony, you can't go off with

758
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 1: the other children. You just had this terrible episode. You've

759
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: got to get well. And he was constantly complaining and

760
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 1: fed up with not being able to do anything, so

761
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 1: in the end Alexander took him out for a coach ride. Unfortunately,

762
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 1: the road was very bumpy and rocky, and within a

763
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 1: short distance he started screaming in pain because it triggered

764
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:33,880
Speaker 1: a really bad bleed, a hematoma where he had just

765
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 1: been recovering from an injury where he banged himself on

766
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 1: the all lock of the boat. So the next thing

767
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: they know, he is temperature is a rocketing, the bleeding

768
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: into the joint is absolutely uncontrollable. This is now October,

769
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: ve m. The doctors can't do anything. I mean, all

770
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: they could do when he had these hemophilia leads was

771
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: apply ice and pray basically, and there wasn't a lot

772
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:08,240
Speaker 1: else they could do. And so he's lying there screaming

773
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,240
Speaker 1: in agony. But actually day and night Alexander was sitting

774
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 1: by his bed and it reached a crisis point on

775
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: the I think it was about the tenth of about

776
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: the tenth of October, and they thought he was going

777
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: to die. They really thought, you know, his temperature was

778
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 1: up at to nearly forty degrees. I think actually the

779
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 1: priest came and read the last rites, and they even

780
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,359
Speaker 1: advised the star to prepare an announcement to go into

781
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: the press that evening tenth October, to forewarn, to set

782
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 1: the scene that the Sario was about to die. And

783
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 1: at that point, well, and not immediately actually surprisingly I

784
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 1: thought it was Immagy, but actually a couple of days

785
00:54:55,880 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: later um in fact, as the temperature was dropping and

786
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 1: he was beginning to get over the crisis, Alexandra sent

787
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 1: a telegram to ask Bootin, who was in Siberia a

788
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: long long way away, asking his advice, and he didn't

789
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,879
Speaker 1: get it till around the twelve or thirteen of October

790
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 1: sent a message back, effectively saying, don't worry, all will

791
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 1: be well, the little one will not die. Don't let

792
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:29,400
Speaker 1: the doctors fuss around him too much. And when she

793
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 1: got that message, of course, she calmed down and became

794
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: the stress sort of vanished from her face. She came

795
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 1: down to dinner the first time in about two weeks,

796
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:43,439
Speaker 1: and alex recovered. But as you can see from that,

797
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 1: he rasped booting was nowhere near. All he did was

798
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 1: send a telegram, and in fact, the telegram saying that

799
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 1: Alexey will recovering it all would be okay, didn't In

800
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: fact right till he passed the crisis anyway, So that

801
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: that that whole a miraculous curing of Alexey by us

802
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: Boutin has been ridiculously overhyped um because he was nowhere

803
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:12,799
Speaker 1: near and he just sent a message. M But we

804
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 1: can imagine as you just described the effect that the

805
00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 1: relief for Alexandra would have on the household. Absolutely, the

806
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 1: relief on her, of course, transmitted itself first to the child,

807
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 1: but to everyone in the household, and so they all

808
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,400
Speaker 1: started believing. Well, ras Boutin says he's going to recover,

809
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 1: so we'll believe it. And maybe there's a sort of

810
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 1: power of positivity that was going on. But alex I

811
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:43,760
Speaker 1: did recover. Let's jump forward in time a little bit. Um.

812
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 1: Of course, when the war begins, Nicholas is not immediately

813
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 1: in command, but after some major losses front being pushed back, uh,

814
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 1: Nicholas does assume command of the army and he leaves

815
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 1: the family. It goes to Stafka, the headquarters, the army headquarters,

816
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:09,879
Speaker 1: and Alexandra and Olga and Tatiana they undertake work at

817
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 1: home as sisters of mercy. Would you describe their efforts

818
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 1: what it meant to them to be a sister of mercy,

819
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 1: a nurse. But but but what was the significance of

820
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 1: that to them? And well, you know kind of how

821
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 1: the war was affecting the family through those experiences. Well

822
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 1: that's a bit of a big question, but let me

823
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 1: try and simplify it down. The The interesting thing about

824
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 1: the war is was it gave Alexandra an incredible sense

825
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 1: of purpose and it also tapped into the huge strong

826
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 1: humanitarian and nursing instincts that she had had passed down

827
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 1: by her mother, Princess Alice, who had done a lot

828
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:54,520
Speaker 1: of humanitarian war work during the Franco Prussian War and

829
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 1: you know in Germany, so and it was a family

830
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 1: tradition and from her and of course Princess Alice died

831
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 1: after nursing her children through dip theory and when she

832
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: contracted it herself. So that nursing instinct was very strong

833
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: in Alexandra, and it gave her a sense of purpose

834
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 1: where she stopped thinking about herself or alex A twenty

835
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 1: four seven, she immediately threw herself despite a lot of

836
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 1: physical problems by then the scietic was awful, she threw

837
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 1: herself into war work. She organized hospital trains. She organized

838
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 1: ladies at the court to to set up collecting dressings

839
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 1: and you know, bringing to bringing together sewing garments so

840
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 1: the wounded. She set up various hospitals in St. Petersburg, well,

841
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 1: it was in Petrograd in the war, in the capital

842
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 1: city and out at Sasco see a lot. And one

843
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 1: of the major things she did which gave her girls

844
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: something to do as well, all pulling together for the

845
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:00,240
Speaker 1: war effort, was that she set up a hospital little

846
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 1: at Cis got a lot of the girls was the

847
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 1: responsibility of the two elder girls. Olga Tatiana helped her

848
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 1: at that hospital, and then a smaller one was set

849
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 1: up nearer to the palace, where Maria and Anastasia did

850
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 1: sort of hospital visiting. Even with Alexey he went along

851
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 1: with them. And now Alga and Tatiana, because they were

852
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 1: old enough with their mother, did a crash course, a

853
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: Red Cross nurse course, and and began working properly, you know,

854
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: looking after the wounded, bandaging wounds, and very quickly Tatiana

855
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 1: proved incredibly talented and capable and was helping assisting in

856
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 1: operations and and really dealing with some pretty grim war

857
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:50,919
Speaker 1: wounds and stuff. Alga, however, emotionally found it very hard

858
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 1: dealing with the trauma of the wounded, and was already

859
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 1: a bit suffering from depression and withdrawal, since you know,

860
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 1: with the father being absent and various other things. I

861
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 1: think she was just very, very sensitive and met a

862
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 1: bit of a melancholic and she became rather withdrawn, couldn't

863
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:12,640
Speaker 1: cope with the hospital work, and had to take more

864
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 1: of a back seat. But Jana was brilliant. She was

865
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 1: a wonderful nurse. I think had things being different, she

866
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 1: could have gone on and being a doctor, if not

867
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:26,200
Speaker 1: a surgeon, if she had not been a royal grand duchess.

868
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 1: Of course, but the younger children too did their bit.

869
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 1: They visited the war wounded, they wrote letters home to

870
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: their families for them, They played games of cards and

871
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 1: board games with them, They talked to them, and when

872
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 1: some of them died, they visited their grays and took

873
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:46,440
Speaker 1: flowers um and really the whole female side of the

874
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 1: family threw themselves into doing something useful during the war,

875
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 1: and they were very admirable in their efforts. So, as

876
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 1: you say, could have maybe been a doctor a surgeon

877
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:06,360
Speaker 1: if she absolutely she had a natural gift for nursing. Yes,

878
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 1: what was that kind of This isn't in my questions.

879
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 1: This is just a question that comes to mind. Was

880
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 1: that kind of assuming a profession that way? Was it

881
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 1: completely barred too? To the grand duchesses, to the as

882
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 1: royal grand duchesses, they couldn't have done it, But they

883
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:26,040
Speaker 1: weren't the only Grand duchess is to do war work.

884
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 1: Nicholas's sister Oiger also did a lot of exemplary war work,

885
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 1: worked on the hospital trains. Other Grand duchesses across the

886
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 1: Roman of family and relatives did did their bit. They

887
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 1: all really involved themselves. Alexandra did far more during the

888
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 1: war than people are aware of, mainly because it's not

889
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 1: really being written about. A friend of mine in America

890
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 1: has been doing a study of Alexander's war work for

891
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 1: some time, and I know he wants to hopefully publish

892
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:01,920
Speaker 1: all his research. But she did a huge amount visiting hospitals,

893
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 1: visiting hospital trains. She took the children along with her.

894
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 1: They did their bit for the war Throughout the war.

895
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 1: The girls all dressed incredibly modestly. From day one. Alexandra said, right,

896
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 1: that's it. No new clothes, no fancy outfits. We will

897
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 1: be dressing modestly and enduring, you know, as such privations

898
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:29,040
Speaker 1: as Romanos in Jue, I mean not many, but you know, nevertheless,

899
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:31,840
Speaker 1: then you see the photographs of them in the war,

900
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 1: you never see them dressed up in fancy clothes clothes.

901
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 1: You see them in cardigans and wooly hats and plain blouses,

902
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:43,439
Speaker 1: just very modestly. And where they had hand been down,

903
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 1: they patched their clothes, you know, they did not They

904
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:50,919
Speaker 1: did their bit for the war effort, they really did.

905
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 1: There were no there were no Faberge nursing jewels. No, well,

906
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 1: there were there were one or two. Even the Faberge

907
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:02,640
Speaker 1: eggs stopped during the war is because Nicholas and Alexandra

908
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 1: considered it inappropriate. But that I think they did have

909
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 1: won me with the Red Cross on a Red Cross

910
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 1: wartime faberg egg. But as such all the Blings stopped,

911
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 1: all the glamor none of that. They they actually really

912
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:23,240
Speaker 1: did to throw their weight behind their nursing efforts. Mhmm.

913
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 1: Part of the mythologizing around especially Alexandra and Respuing, is

914
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 1: that during the war, Alexandra assumed more administrative control of

915
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 1: the state because Nicholas was off at stavka Um. And

916
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:43,720
Speaker 1: in your own writing, the way that you put it

917
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 1: is that she rapidly began over reaching herself by directly

918
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 1: influencing the sacking and appointment of key ministers. Can you

919
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:54,840
Speaker 1: say a little bit more about about that part of

920
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:57,600
Speaker 1: what she was doing during the war, Well, Nicholas was

921
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 1: a long way away at Army h Q, and she

922
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:06,080
Speaker 1: was always very opinionated about who, about what kind of

923
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 1: ministers Nicholas should appoint. Basically, throughout Nicholas's reign, the only

924
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 1: good ministers either got murdered or gave up hommies. Stolypien

925
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:19,720
Speaker 1: was a case in point, he was assassinated. Generally, a

926
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:24,400
Speaker 1: lot of toady's and yesmen were appointed during Nicholas's reign

927
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:30,400
Speaker 1: who were often incompetent and weaken ineffectual. But Alexandra was

928
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:33,320
Speaker 1: the one who wanted to have a retinue of yes

929
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 1: men who did as she felt, you know, things should

930
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:44,600
Speaker 1: be done. And she constantly haround Nicholas in her long

931
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 1: lecturing letters to him at the at the front, pressing

932
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 1: him into sacking this minister. I don't like that minister,

933
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:55,480
Speaker 1: and you know you should get rid of so and so.

934
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 1: And it was normally because they wouldn't tear the line,

935
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:00,880
Speaker 1: and you know, they tried to bring in a some

936
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:04,880
Speaker 1: change or do something inventive or you know, use their

937
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 1: use their common sense in ways that she didn't like.

938
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 1: I need to act. If anyone tried to act remotely inventively,

939
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 1: she didn't like it. So basically, in about sixteen months

940
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 1: of the war that Nicholas was away, four prime ministers

941
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 1: came and went, five Ministers of the Interior and three

942
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 1: ministers of war, mainly to do with Alexandra saying sack him.

943
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:33,600
Speaker 1: I don't like him, appoint someone else. Also, of course,

944
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 1: though I'm not convinced the extent to which Rasputin had influence,

945
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:41,240
Speaker 1: but he too would put his pennyworth in and say

946
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 1: you should get rid of so and so. And this

947
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:46,800
Speaker 1: is where a lot of the rumor and gossip came about,

948
01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 1: saying that they you know, they were running the show

949
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:54,960
Speaker 1: and making bad decisions in Nicholas's absence. But ultimately the

950
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,040
Speaker 1: marks stopped with him. He shouldn't have allowed her to

951
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:02,960
Speaker 1: manipulate him into making bad decisions about government ministers, which

952
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 1: unfortunately he did. But then he was doing it from

953
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:08,440
Speaker 1: a distance, and people weren't telling them him the truth

954
01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 1: about what the situation was like in Petrograd. If they

955
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 1: if they had, if they told him how precipitous everything

956
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:20,080
Speaker 1: was in February, after the February Revolution in nineteen seventeen,

957
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 1: he would have come straight back and taken control, and

958
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:28,400
Speaker 1: the second October Revolution might never have happened. M Can

959
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:32,360
Speaker 1: you describe, maybe maybe in brief, I don't know, whatever

960
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:36,600
Speaker 1: extent you'd like, the events that did eventually lead to

961
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 1: Nicholas's abdication. Nicholas, I feel, was duped into abdicating various

962
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:48,200
Speaker 1: hundreds of miles away from home, when two members of

963
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 1: the government, the Duma, came out by train and persuaded

964
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:55,960
Speaker 1: him that that revolution have broken in Petrograd. There was

965
01:06:56,040 --> 01:07:00,640
Speaker 1: disarray in the army, people the conscript army, lots of

966
01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:04,040
Speaker 1: them were deserting at the front. Morale was low, and

967
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:07,200
Speaker 1: it was you know, there was so much disaffection with

968
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:10,720
Speaker 1: the czar and the old imperial regime that the best

969
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 1: thing he could do save Russia and the country and

970
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:17,800
Speaker 1: the war effort was to give up the job. I abdicate,

971
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 1: and because Nicolas loved his country, so passionately he allowed

972
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 1: himself to be persuaded. I think that his application would

973
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:31,200
Speaker 1: save Russia, and it would also save the war effort,

974
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:34,800
Speaker 1: because obviously with the revolution everyone was worried that Russia

975
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:37,280
Speaker 1: was now going to pull out of the war effort

976
01:07:37,280 --> 01:07:41,800
Speaker 1: as well on the Eastern Front. So Nicolas abdicated, thinking

977
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:46,440
Speaker 1: that he by his him removing himself as the hated tsar,

978
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:51,280
Speaker 1: the situation could be saved. Maybe there, I mean, the

979
01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 1: original hope I think was amongst the provisional government in

980
01:07:56,680 --> 01:08:00,040
Speaker 1: back into in Petrograd word that there could poss to

981
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:05,440
Speaker 1: be a regency for alex A two eventually becomes. But

982
01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:08,880
Speaker 1: of course what Nicholas did when he abdicated was knowing

983
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:13,880
Speaker 1: full well his child was a hemophiliac whose life expectancy

984
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:17,639
Speaker 1: was pretty poor. He abdicated on behalf of his son

985
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:22,640
Speaker 1: as well, because if he had just abdicated for himself,

986
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:27,120
Speaker 1: he and Alexandra would have been obliged to go into exile,

987
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:30,960
Speaker 1: leaving Alexey under a regency in Russia. And there is

988
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:33,800
Speaker 1: no way on God's Earth they would want to be

989
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:37,880
Speaker 1: separated from him, from their boy, that they wouldn't do that.

990
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:42,759
Speaker 1: So he abdicated on behalf of alex Say also because

991
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:45,880
Speaker 1: he'd had private talks with the doctors and they had

992
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:49,080
Speaker 1: effectively told him that Alexey would be lucky to see

993
01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:54,120
Speaker 1: the age of sixteen. So Nicholas later realized, I think

994
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:58,640
Speaker 1: in captivity in the last months of his life, that

995
01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:01,600
Speaker 1: he had been tripped into mulcating that it had not

996
01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:05,679
Speaker 1: achieved anything. The Bolshowiks had taken over Russia pulled out

997
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 1: of the war with Germany in March, and things were

998
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:13,400
Speaker 1: even worse from Russia for Russia. He hadn't saved Russia

999
01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:18,320
Speaker 1: by abdicating uh And of course the sellout to the

1000
01:09:18,360 --> 01:09:23,080
Speaker 1: Germans by the Bolsheviks broke his heart. So the whole

1001
01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:27,599
Speaker 1: thing was really tragic when you think about it. So,

1002
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:30,880
Speaker 1: you know, at the beginning of our conversation, you you

1003
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 1: talked a little bit about how you got started writing

1004
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:36,960
Speaker 1: about the Romanovs, and you wrote a detailed account of

1005
01:09:37,200 --> 01:09:42,920
Speaker 1: their last days. It's rich with detail and an emotion. Um.

1006
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:48,080
Speaker 1: It includes the horrible events of their death. Um. Would

1007
01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:55,320
Speaker 1: you describe their outlook, Nicholas, Alexandra, maybe the girls during

1008
01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:57,559
Speaker 1: the time that they were held captive. What do we

1009
01:09:57,600 --> 01:10:01,920
Speaker 1: know about what they were thinking the time. The problem

1010
01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:05,120
Speaker 1: with knowing what their ownolds were thinking at the very

1011
01:10:05,240 --> 01:10:07,360
Speaker 1: end when they're in the Kashenberg in the Party of

1012
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:13,799
Speaker 1: House is that the Bolsheviks stopped them receiving and sending letters. Um,

1013
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:17,880
Speaker 1: So we only know up to a certain point, I

1014
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:22,280
Speaker 1: think in June, and after that, really we don't know

1015
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:24,560
Speaker 1: what was going on in their heads. We have to

1016
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:29,560
Speaker 1: kind of piecings together from what we know from eyewitnesses

1017
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 1: and other people who left accounts. But it's pretty clear

1018
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:39,960
Speaker 1: that to me, in those final weeks of their captivity, Firstly,

1019
01:10:40,000 --> 01:10:44,240
Speaker 1: as I've already said, Alexandra just retreated more and more

1020
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:48,240
Speaker 1: into religiosity. Every day the girls, one or other girl

1021
01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:51,439
Speaker 1: would have when that they had their brief exercise periods

1022
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:54,040
Speaker 1: morning and afternoon, one of the girls always had to

1023
01:10:54,080 --> 01:10:57,559
Speaker 1: stay with mother indoors. She rarely went outside because she

1024
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:01,280
Speaker 1: was so sickly or indisposed. Read the Gospels to her,

1025
01:11:01,360 --> 01:11:05,320
Speaker 1: or read the Bible or some pious work. The last

1026
01:11:05,360 --> 01:11:09,520
Speaker 1: few letters she wrote were very laden with religious references

1027
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:17,600
Speaker 1: and in a very profound sense I think of reconciliation, acceptance, fatalism.

1028
01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:21,680
Speaker 1: Both she and Nicholas were deeply, deeply fatalistic, and you

1029
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:24,800
Speaker 1: get the same thing with Nicholas's last few letters and

1030
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:30,080
Speaker 1: then his sense of utter despair. The last journal entry

1031
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:33,880
Speaker 1: he wrote was about he was the eleventh of July,

1032
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:38,040
Speaker 1: about six days before they were murdered, where he just

1033
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:40,519
Speaker 1: you could sense him giving up. He said, we've had

1034
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:45,880
Speaker 1: absolutely known news from outside. The sense of despair because

1035
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:48,679
Speaker 1: they didn't know what was going on in Russia, how

1036
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:52,320
Speaker 1: their relatives were, what was happening in the rest of

1037
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:56,320
Speaker 1: the world. The sense of abandonment I think was pretty

1038
01:11:56,360 --> 01:12:00,320
Speaker 1: profound in Nicholas, and I think he was obvious slee

1039
01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:05,719
Speaker 1: deeply religiously resigned to his fate. As well. The girls,

1040
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:11,160
Speaker 1: it's difficult to gauge because they were young, and perhaps

1041
01:12:12,160 --> 01:12:15,720
Speaker 1: the younger too. I don't think we're totally aware. Anastasia

1042
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:20,200
Speaker 1: and Maria also they were a bit too friendly with

1043
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:23,320
Speaker 1: the guards and got into trouble for for chatting to

1044
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:26,519
Speaker 1: the guards. But they were bored. They were teenagers locked

1045
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:30,080
Speaker 1: up for hours and hours and hours every day, you know,

1046
01:12:30,160 --> 01:12:36,160
Speaker 1: with a sick menopause and mother are very sick brother um,

1047
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:40,240
Speaker 1: so inevitably they're going to get bored and talked to

1048
01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:44,960
Speaker 1: the guards. Olga was very very much in retreat by

1049
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 1: the end, very depressive, very depressed, and very thin sick.

1050
01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:55,439
Speaker 1: I think because she, of all the girls, sensed that

1051
01:12:55,640 --> 01:13:00,320
Speaker 1: this was the end. She had also become very ain't,

1052
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:05,200
Speaker 1: very almost traumatized by the hatred for her parents, particularly

1053
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:08,720
Speaker 1: her father. She was deeply upset that the people had

1054
01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:12,280
Speaker 1: turned against her father, a man she adored and loved

1055
01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:16,200
Speaker 1: and who had been a very wonderful hands on parents.

1056
01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:20,880
Speaker 1: So Tatiana, well, Tatiana carried on putting on a brave

1057
01:13:20,960 --> 01:13:24,040
Speaker 1: face and getting things done and not keeping an eye

1058
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:28,400
Speaker 1: on their mother. So we can only guess really what

1059
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:31,160
Speaker 1: was going on in their minds in those last few days.

1060
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:37,520
Speaker 1: But I think certainly Nicholas would have expected that his

1061
01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:40,920
Speaker 1: his head would be on the block eventually, because it

1062
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:42,880
Speaker 1: had been said to him that, you know, he was

1063
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:45,360
Speaker 1: going to be taken back to Moscow and put on trial,

1064
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:51,440
Speaker 1: and the inevitable result of that would have been an execution.

1065
01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:59,519
Speaker 1: H And of course there they are killed, and you

1066
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:03,080
Speaker 1: know horible manner that you described in your in your book.

1067
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:07,479
Speaker 1: But there were aspects of their death that led to

1068
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:12,679
Speaker 1: an array of enduring this especially the hopeful legends about

1069
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:17,519
Speaker 1: the survival of Anastasia. M Hum, When how did you

1070
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:24,080
Speaker 1: go about sifting truth from rumor and stories when you

1071
01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:28,920
Speaker 1: were doing that research? UM not difficult for me because

1072
01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:31,400
Speaker 1: I think it's such a nonsense, all these claims of

1073
01:14:31,479 --> 01:14:36,120
Speaker 1: miraculous survival and always has been. And once the Soviet

1074
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:40,479
Speaker 1: Union collapsed and some of the documentary evidence relating to

1075
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:45,400
Speaker 1: the murders came out of the archives, it's it's absolutely

1076
01:14:45,400 --> 01:14:48,960
Speaker 1: apparent to me from everything that I was able to

1077
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:52,360
Speaker 1: glean and read and check out, that there is no

1078
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:56,479
Speaker 1: way anyone in that family could have escaped the blood

1079
01:14:56,520 --> 01:15:00,120
Speaker 1: bath that was that took place on the night to

1080
01:15:00,200 --> 01:15:06,439
Speaker 1: the sixteenth, seventeenth July. UM. It's wishful thinking. I think

1081
01:15:06,479 --> 01:15:10,840
Speaker 1: part of it is the idea that it's so horrendous

1082
01:15:10,840 --> 01:15:13,120
Speaker 1: having to come to terms with the fact that five

1083
01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:17,760
Speaker 1: innocent children were murdered in such a brutal and savage way,

1084
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:21,600
Speaker 1: and because of that, people want to hope somehow that

1085
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:26,400
Speaker 1: someone got away, that someone survived. And the real problem

1086
01:15:26,439 --> 01:15:34,000
Speaker 1: with these endless Anastasia rumors and all the numerous, numberless

1087
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:38,000
Speaker 1: claimants there have been several Anastasias, in fact, they've been

1088
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:41,320
Speaker 1: claimants to for every member of the family. The reason

1089
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:48,040
Speaker 1: primarily that these rumors carried on was because the Bolsheviks,

1090
01:15:48,080 --> 01:15:54,040
Speaker 1: initially for many many years, only acknowledge that they killed

1091
01:15:54,080 --> 01:15:58,880
Speaker 1: the czar, and then people pretty much accepted that Alex

1092
01:15:59,080 --> 01:16:01,519
Speaker 1: would have been killed as the heir to the throne.

1093
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:04,240
Speaker 1: So the two males were killed. But for many many

1094
01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:11,080
Speaker 1: years the Bolsheviks happily lead allowed people in the West

1095
01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:15,599
Speaker 1: to to to to disseminate and circulate these stories that

1096
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:18,920
Speaker 1: maybe someone got away, maybe the woman who turned up

1097
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:22,960
Speaker 1: in Berlin in trying to drown herself in the canal

1098
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:28,800
Speaker 1: really was Anastasia. And it's because the Bolsheviks didn't categorically

1099
01:16:28,880 --> 01:16:34,439
Speaker 1: deny that they had murdered the children children that this

1100
01:16:34,439 --> 01:16:37,639
Speaker 1: this rumor was able to carry on for so long,

1101
01:16:38,040 --> 01:16:41,960
Speaker 1: and because there were so many surprising number of aristocrats,

1102
01:16:42,040 --> 01:16:45,439
Speaker 1: not really many rominals, but certainly a few aristocrats in

1103
01:16:45,479 --> 01:16:48,759
Speaker 1: Europe in the twenties and thirties who are actually ready

1104
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:54,479
Speaker 1: to believe this woman. Um but I even now, I

1105
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:57,920
Speaker 1: mean not now, it's kind of drifted off, but right

1106
01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:00,800
Speaker 1: up until the anniversary in two thousand eight, team, even

1107
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:03,680
Speaker 1: though I still occasionally got emails from people saying, well,

1108
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:06,760
Speaker 1: of course, you know, Anastasia got away, or even the

1109
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:09,519
Speaker 1: whole family got away, and they all went to live

1110
01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:12,960
Speaker 1: in different parts of Europe and lived happily ever after

1111
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:17,679
Speaker 1: into their old age. But that they're having, having studied

1112
01:17:17,720 --> 01:17:21,160
Speaker 1: all the evidence, there's no way anyone could have escaped

1113
01:17:21,160 --> 01:17:27,800
Speaker 1: that massacre mhm. And also, so the other thing you

1114
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:30,080
Speaker 1: have to recall, it's not only getting out of the

1115
01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:35,719
Speaker 1: house and escaping being murdered, but somehow getting from Siberia

1116
01:17:36,160 --> 01:17:38,760
Speaker 1: in the middle of a Russian Civil war which was

1117
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:43,000
Speaker 1: then raging all the way from Siberia out to Western

1118
01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:47,280
Speaker 1: Europe through Bolshevik controlled territory. And it's just it's just

1119
01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:52,360
Speaker 1: it's just not credible, just not credible. Mhm. Thank you.

1120
01:17:53,240 --> 01:17:56,799
Speaker 1: So kind of two sew it all up with two

1121
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:00,280
Speaker 1: big picture questions, kind of thinking about what do we

1122
01:18:00,400 --> 01:18:04,080
Speaker 1: hope that listeners will take away. Do you think that

1123
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:12,240
Speaker 1: the fall of Imperial Russia was inevitable in some way

1124
01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:19,120
Speaker 1: beyond the personal act pardon, beyond the personal actions and

1125
01:18:19,240 --> 01:18:23,280
Speaker 1: limitations of the Romanos, of of Nicholas, of Alexandra and

1126
01:18:23,320 --> 01:18:28,320
Speaker 1: the way that they governed. That's the tricky one. Really,

1127
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:33,640
Speaker 1: I'm not totally convinced that it was inevitable. If I

1128
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:38,800
Speaker 1: think the big crucial turning point could have been five

1129
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:43,200
Speaker 1: after you know, the fiasco the Russo Japanese wore terrible

1130
01:18:43,280 --> 01:18:48,679
Speaker 1: disaster for Rosia politically after that, and then the bloody

1131
01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:55,759
Speaker 1: Sunday protest march where innocent working workers marched without weapons

1132
01:18:55,880 --> 01:19:02,320
Speaker 1: or anything on asking for reform and for better working

1133
01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:07,439
Speaker 1: conditions when they were attacked and and by Cossack troops.

1134
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:12,719
Speaker 1: When that happened, that turning point, that was the point

1135
01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:16,720
Speaker 1: where Nicholas should have introduced major political concessions, if it

1136
01:19:16,840 --> 01:19:24,639
Speaker 1: introduced decent, democratic, constitutional government, if he'd allowed the Duma,

1137
01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:29,160
Speaker 1: the State Duma, to flourish instead of constantly censoring it

1138
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:33,080
Speaker 1: and shutting it down, then I don't see why Russia

1139
01:19:33,120 --> 01:19:37,880
Speaker 1: could not have evolved into the kind of constitutional monarchy

1140
01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:40,760
Speaker 1: that was made such a success by King Edward the

1141
01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:43,479
Speaker 1: seventh in the years leading up to World War One,

1142
01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:48,639
Speaker 1: because Russia was beginning to grow economically, beginning to catch

1143
01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:53,200
Speaker 1: up with Western Europe in those terms, and it could

1144
01:19:53,240 --> 01:19:58,720
Speaker 1: have flourished differently under a much more benign and democratic

1145
01:19:59,160 --> 01:20:02,880
Speaker 1: constitution and our monarch, by the fact is, Nicholas was

1146
01:20:03,040 --> 01:20:07,120
Speaker 1: terrified of change, who was terrified of letting go of

1147
01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:13,240
Speaker 1: the tight controls of Sarist autocracy, so it could have

1148
01:20:13,320 --> 01:20:16,800
Speaker 1: been different. But then even up to nineteen seventeen, when

1149
01:20:16,920 --> 01:20:20,080
Speaker 1: the revolution broke in February, if Nicholas had not been

1150
01:20:20,120 --> 01:20:24,240
Speaker 1: away at Army HQ, if he'd been in Petrograd, he

1151
01:20:24,280 --> 01:20:28,000
Speaker 1: would have clamped down on the revolutionaries much more firmly

1152
01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:32,720
Speaker 1: and might have diffused revolution then, because the Bolsheviks effectively

1153
01:20:32,760 --> 01:20:38,519
Speaker 1: in October just walked in because not because they were strong,

1154
01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:42,880
Speaker 1: but because the provisional government was so weak and so disorganized.

1155
01:20:43,080 --> 01:20:49,440
Speaker 1: So there are several moments at which revolution wasn't necessarily inevitable.

1156
01:20:52,200 --> 01:21:00,519
Speaker 1: Mhm mhm. Really um, the final question, I mean, you've

1157
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:02,640
Speaker 1: already kind of addressed in what you said. It's, you know,

1158
01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:05,519
Speaker 1: kind of what extent where Nicholas or Alexandra a resputing

1159
01:21:06,240 --> 01:21:08,720
Speaker 1: directly responsible for the end of the arrest rule. But

1160
01:21:08,840 --> 01:21:11,160
Speaker 1: I feel like you've answered that with your last but

1161
01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:12,920
Speaker 1: your last answer, do you have anything else you would

1162
01:21:12,920 --> 01:21:14,920
Speaker 1: want to say on that point? Or well? That the

1163
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:18,439
Speaker 1: real folly? I think, I think actually, I mean, I

1164
01:21:18,479 --> 01:21:22,280
Speaker 1: don't like to pin things onto one thing and make

1165
01:21:22,320 --> 01:21:27,680
Speaker 1: a dramatic statement, but I do feel, of course the

1166
01:21:27,800 --> 01:21:31,880
Speaker 1: thing that so much hinges on is if Alexey had

1167
01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:38,200
Speaker 1: not been born a hemophiliac um, they wouldn't have clutched

1168
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:40,800
Speaker 1: at all these cracks and Charlatan's. And I'm not saying

1169
01:21:40,880 --> 01:21:43,880
Speaker 1: Raspision was Charlatan. I don't think he was. I think

1170
01:21:43,880 --> 01:21:47,680
Speaker 1: he had genuine faith healing pals or some kind. But

1171
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:51,320
Speaker 1: if they had not attached themselves to us, booting to

1172
01:21:51,479 --> 01:21:56,360
Speaker 1: keep Alexey alive in their eyes, because things could have

1173
01:21:56,439 --> 01:22:00,960
Speaker 1: been different because alexa Um, because Rasping ought all that

1174
01:22:01,000 --> 01:22:06,599
Speaker 1: bad pressless scandal on the monarchy through his association with them.

1175
01:22:06,720 --> 01:22:09,800
Speaker 1: So I think the sheer fact of alex Say being

1176
01:22:09,840 --> 01:22:13,360
Speaker 1: born at him opheliac history could have been quite different

1177
01:22:13,400 --> 01:22:17,600
Speaker 1: if he'd been born a normal, healthy child, but alternative.

1178
01:22:17,680 --> 01:22:20,759
Speaker 1: And you could also say if Alexandra hadn't been a German,

1179
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:26,040
Speaker 1: because there was so much hostility towards her, if Nicholas

1180
01:22:26,040 --> 01:22:29,879
Speaker 1: had married a Russian wife, things could maybe have been different.

1181
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:34,520
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's it for this week's episode of Unobscured.

1182
01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:40,719
Speaker 1: Stick around after this short sponsor break. One last note

1183
01:22:40,720 --> 01:22:43,559
Speaker 1: before we wrap things up here, and Unobscured, it has

1184
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:46,000
Speaker 1: been a joy to bring you these deep dives over

1185
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:48,080
Speaker 1: the past four years, and I hope you can tell

1186
01:22:48,160 --> 01:22:51,160
Speaker 1: just how proud the entire team is at what we've created.

1187
01:22:51,680 --> 01:22:54,479
Speaker 1: But we're not done. Along with all the other amazing

1188
01:22:54,520 --> 01:22:57,080
Speaker 1: podcasts that we make over at Grim and Mild, we're

1189
01:22:57,080 --> 01:22:59,640
Speaker 1: adding a new one that you're gonna love. Grim and

1190
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:02,439
Speaker 1: Mild Presents will be an ongoing deep dive show that

1191
01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:06,479
Speaker 1: tackles seasonal topics two seasons each year. Think of it

1192
01:23:06,560 --> 01:23:09,599
Speaker 1: like Unobscured, but on the same release schedule as Lower

1193
01:23:09,840 --> 01:23:12,960
Speaker 1: or Noble Blood. Every other week I'll bring you a

1194
01:23:13,040 --> 01:23:16,640
Speaker 1: new chapter of our exploration of all things weird, unusual,

1195
01:23:16,760 --> 01:23:20,320
Speaker 1: and fascinating. Grim and Mild Presents kicks off on Friday,

1196
01:23:20,439 --> 01:23:24,080
Speaker 1: January seven with a thirteen episode series all about the

1197
01:23:24,120 --> 01:23:27,800
Speaker 1: American side show, and you're going to love it. Learn

1198
01:23:27,840 --> 01:23:31,080
Speaker 1: more and subscribe over at Grim and Mild dot com.

1199
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:58,479
Speaker 1: Slash Presents. Unobscured was created by me Aaron Manky and

1200
01:23:58,600 --> 01:24:02,080
Speaker 1: produced by Matt Frederick, Alex Williams, and Josh Thane in

1201
01:24:02,200 --> 01:24:06,040
Speaker 1: partnership with I Heart Radio, with research by Sam Alberty,

1202
01:24:06,360 --> 01:24:10,000
Speaker 1: writing by Carl Nellis, and original music by Chad Lawson.

1203
01:24:10,439 --> 01:24:14,639
Speaker 1: Learn more about our contributing historians, source materials and links

1204
01:24:14,680 --> 01:24:18,200
Speaker 1: to our other shows over at grimm and mild dot com,

1205
01:24:18,240 --> 01:25:04,320
Speaker 1: slash Unobscured, and as always, thanks for listening all