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Speaker 1: Murder in Oregon is a production of iHeartRadio. The Frankies

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Speaker 1: laid Mike to rest, but not their questions about his murder.

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Speaker 1: Here's pat from here to Santa Fe.

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Speaker 2: The state had him in closed casket, but they had

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Speaker 2: him at the Supreme Court Building for a day, and

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Speaker 2: then they had a fabulous service at the cathedral and

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Speaker 2: then internment at the National Cemetery in Santa Fe. There's

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Speaker 2: quite a ceremony of quite a funeral that filled up

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Speaker 2: the cathedral and it was beautifully done. It's in a

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Speaker 2: pretty place. I've been done her a couple of times

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Speaker 2: a year, and I put sunflowers on his grave because

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Speaker 2: he's a Kansas boy. And I also have a beer

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Speaker 2: with him. I've got a lot of pictures of me

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Speaker 2: drinking Budweiser's at the Santa Fe National Cemetery, and I've

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Speaker 2: had a few over here in front of the Dome building.

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Speaker 1: After the funeral, Kevin returned to Florida, but the official

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Speaker 1: investigation seemed to be going nowhere, and Kevin began to

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Speaker 1: bristle at the lack of progress.

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Speaker 2: It had been so many months. Mike was dead. We

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Speaker 2: knew that, but there were so many rumors swirling around

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Speaker 2: the world is full of kooks and cranks, and Pat

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Speaker 2: and I were very vocal because of the resistance, because

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Speaker 2: of the kickback and the struggle just to get the

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Speaker 2: autopsy report, but to get any kind of answers to

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Speaker 2: find out what was going on. Anytime I question, who

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Speaker 2: is this person? Who's that? Why do you need to

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Speaker 2: know that? And it was just this constant bullshit. Who

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Speaker 2: are you? You're just his brother. We'll tell you who

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Speaker 2: killed him soon enough, don't worry.

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Speaker 1: And that's how and why Phil got hooked up with

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Speaker 1: the Frankie brothers. Here's Pat.

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Speaker 2: He was writing all these great columns. I just wanted

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Speaker 2: to talk to. There are so many different people involved

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Speaker 2: in this thing it hurts your brain after a while,

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Speaker 2: but they're all interconnected because it's an incession. She was

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Speaker 2: a bunch of criminals down here. Turns out there's an

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Speaker 2: ancestorous bunch of politicians, political officials and such too, and

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of them had stuff that they

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Speaker 2: needed to get cleaned up covered up.

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Speaker 3: Pat seemed to be the one who was speaking for

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Speaker 3: the family, so I got in touch with him. He

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Speaker 3: started talking about discrepancies of the case. So I said pat,

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Speaker 3: come on, tell me more. And he said, guy, you

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Speaker 3: need to talk to about that's my brother, Kevin. He's

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Speaker 3: the one who's up on that. So we started talking.

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Speaker 3: The first conversations were you could see he was very wary.

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Speaker 3: It must have been three or four months into the

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Speaker 3: investigation after the murder. They weren't being straight with him.

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Speaker 3: I think that's the main thing. There were other things involved.

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Speaker 3: They're trying to get the autopsy, but he wasn't getting

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Speaker 3: information from them. They just kept sort of shining them

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Speaker 3: are saying trust us, don't interfere with the investigation. And well,

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Speaker 3: as he just said screw it and told me I

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Speaker 3: could go ahead and write about the organized criminal element.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lauren Brtt Pacheco and this is murdering Oregon. Kevin's

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Speaker 1: back in Florida feeling beyond frustrated. When a friend stopped by.

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Speaker 1: He was with a local sheriff's department and brought along

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Speaker 1: a depressing update.

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Speaker 2: A friend of mine named the Charlote Canny Sheers department.

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Speaker 2: He said, man, they're going nowhere with the deal. He says,

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Speaker 2: we're not getting He said, they put a query up

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Speaker 2: there and they said there was nothing to offer. Other

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Speaker 2: agencies that it's all being handled in house.

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Speaker 1: Then he gave Kevin a newspaper article mentioning a woman

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Speaker 1: he thought could help solve Mike's murder, along with her

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Speaker 1: business card.

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Speaker 2: He gave me the scal's number. Her name was Jane Doe.

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Speaker 2: That's what is said on the card. He said, you

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Speaker 2: need to go talk to this scal. She helped us

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Speaker 2: with a missing person's case and man, she was spot

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Speaker 2: on found the guy and I said, how did she

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Speaker 2: find it? He said she's a psychic and I said, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I don't need this shit.

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Speaker 1: But while he was skeptical, he was also desperate, and

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Speaker 1: Kevin decided he had little to lose.

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Speaker 2: I called her up and I said, do you do

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Speaker 2: criminal investigations? And she said what's your name? And I

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Speaker 2: said this is Kevin. She said, okay, what is this about?

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Speaker 2: And I said this about a murder? And it was

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Speaker 2: very quiet for a few seconds, and she said one

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Speaker 2: of your brothers and I said yeah, knock on the door.

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Speaker 2: And she's in a moo boo and very colorful, lively lady.

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Speaker 2: She said, you mentioned something about your brother being murdered.

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Speaker 1: Regardless of what you believe or think about psychics. Kevin

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Speaker 1: has kept detail notes of what you're about to hear,

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Speaker 1: and many parts have proven pertinent over the years.

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Speaker 4: She said, what time was he killed?

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Speaker 2: And I said, they're saying somewhere around seven o'clock, and

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Speaker 2: her nose, she's got seven to seven oh five written down,

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Speaker 2: and then eight eight point thirty says, there's something wrong

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Speaker 2: with these times. I don't know if this is the

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Speaker 2: proper time that he was killed, but something happened at

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Speaker 2: seven o'clock, and then something happened again later, one person inside,

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Speaker 2: two or three people outside, and it was a planned hit.

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Speaker 2: They knew your brother's schedule, they knew it was going

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Speaker 2: to be at this meeting. There were people that he

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Speaker 2: trusted that he shouldn't have trusted, and those very people

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Speaker 2: are having a meeting and you wouldn't believe this, but

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Speaker 2: they're meeting right now.

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Speaker 1: She then went into very specific detail about a place

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Speaker 1: Kevin would eventually visit much later.

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Speaker 2: It's a big house overlooking a lake, and it's got

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Speaker 2: gates on the front and some kind of security system

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Speaker 2: looking down on it, like cameras or something. And their

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Speaker 2: meeting right now talking about this, the ones that were

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Speaker 2: responsible for it, and I see a rose. I don't

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Speaker 2: know what it means.

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Speaker 1: And then she said something that caught Kevin absolutely off guard.

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Speaker 2: They've got somebody in custody right now. They think that

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Speaker 2: he might have done it, but he didn't do it,

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Speaker 2: but he knows more than he should know. His name's

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Speaker 2: John Kay something.

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Speaker 1: As soon as Kevin left, he called the state police

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Speaker 1: officer investigating the murder, Lauren Glover.

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Speaker 2: I asked him and I said, do you have somebody

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Speaker 2: in custody right now? He said, yeah, who snitched it?

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Speaker 2: We got a leak in this Who told you about that?

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Speaker 2: And I said, I went to a psyche and she

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Speaker 2: said that he had somebody in custody right now named

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Speaker 2: John Kay. He says c Kraus. He says, did she

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Speaker 2: tell you he did it?

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Speaker 4: And I said no.

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Speaker 2: She said he probably didn't do it, but he had

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Speaker 2: some information about it.

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Speaker 1: Kraus wouldn't just prove a central figure in Mike's murder.

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Speaker 1: Tragic one as well. Here's Phil from an early age.

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Speaker 4: He had been beaten by his father.

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Speaker 3: I mean they would punish him when he was twelve

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Speaker 3: years old, time to a chair and beat him till

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Speaker 3: he was blue. It's in the record someplace, and so

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Speaker 3: of course he started stealing.

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Speaker 4: Cars at an early age. Johnny Crass did, and.

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Speaker 3: He was a notably disturbed kid. I mean, he was

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Speaker 3: barely average intelligence if that, and terribly disturbed.

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Speaker 1: Besides, Kraus also knew disturbingly specific and classified details about

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Speaker 1: Michael Frankie's murder.

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Speaker 3: One of the most obvious things that Kraus knew that

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Speaker 3: he couldn't have known unless he'd been there, was the

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Speaker 3: nature of the Frankis wounds. One stab mark to the

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Speaker 3: left arm, probably a defensive wound, and the fatal wound

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Speaker 3: to the heart. It hadn't been released to the public,

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Speaker 3: and Johnny Cross knew that.

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Speaker 4: In addition to that, he said.

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Speaker 3: Frankie had come up on him when he was breaking

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Speaker 3: into the car to get away. He couldn't. Frankie was

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Speaker 3: too strong. They struggled. He had a knife, he started

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Speaker 3: slicing at him, and then he stabbed him.

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Speaker 4: And he turned and ran.

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Speaker 3: Towards the old hospital, across the huge green lawn there

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Speaker 3: and around the green generator, which is exactly what Huntsaker,

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Speaker 3: the janitor the State Cops first witness said he.

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Speaker 4: Saw that night.

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Speaker 1: Huntsaker was that maintenance worker at the Dome building, who

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Speaker 1: initially was the only eyewitness to come forward back to Kevin.

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Speaker 2: He said he turned because he heard something like a

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Speaker 2: grunt sound or a hurt sense, like somebody getting punched

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Speaker 2: in the gut, and he turned around and he saw

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Speaker 2: two guys facing each other at that instant. One turned

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Speaker 2: and ran this way, and the other one went back

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Speaker 2: into the Dome building.

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Speaker 1: But Kraus wasn't even on anyone's radar for the murder

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Speaker 1: or brought in because of it.

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Speaker 2: So for a pro vide life.

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Speaker 3: Eendly the morning after the murder, when this hit the news,

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Speaker 3: he told some of his cohorts was living in a

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Speaker 3: flophouse there, that he really stepped in it and he

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Speaker 3: had to get out of town. He confessed to his mother,

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Speaker 3: he confessed to his girlfriend, and he confessed to his brother.

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Speaker 3: He went in and told his prole officers that he'd

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Speaker 3: seen the murder. But what he said, and of course

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Speaker 3: he later said that he just made it up. What

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Speaker 3: he did was that he'd seen five Mexicans with the murder,

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Speaker 3: and then he chased them, he said, for about two

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Speaker 3: or three miles before they got away, and then he

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Speaker 3: dropped out of sight again and was rearrested a couple

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Speaker 3: months later in Central Oregon and brought back and questioned again,

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Speaker 3: and that's when that's when he confessed to Martineck.

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Speaker 1: Randy Martineck was an investigator for the Oregon Justice Department.

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Speaker 1: Here's Kevin.

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Speaker 2: He was an investigator that was assisting with the investigation.

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Speaker 2: And that's where martin att got the confession. He brought

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Speaker 2: in a polygrapher who was with the FBI, flew him

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Speaker 2: in and did the polygraph instead of having the state

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Speaker 2: police did the polygraph because he knew.

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Speaker 1: They were shipped, and he passed the polygraph.

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Speaker 4: And he passed the polygraph.

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Speaker 1: Here's Phil.

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Speaker 4: This was after he confessed.

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Speaker 3: The FBI polygrapher concluded that Prowis was telling the truth.

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Speaker 1: Tom McCallum was the private investigator who'd ultimately work for

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Speaker 1: the defense of another man, the one arrested for Mike's murder.

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Speaker 1: Here's his take on Kraus.

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Speaker 5: The Department of Justice guy that talked to him was

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Speaker 5: kind of a neutral. I always thought investigator. He wasn't

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Speaker 5: with the DA's office, he wasn't with the state police,

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Speaker 5: and they were all, you know, going in other directions.

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Speaker 5: So I kind of weighed that into my opinion of

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Speaker 5: what he had to say, and he totally believed the

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Speaker 5: crass that did it, and some of the things that

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Speaker 5: he said were things that, you know, what he would

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Speaker 5: have known, physical things, and the way that he described

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Speaker 5: what he did.

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Speaker 4: We're pretty right on.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I had read the police report and I

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Speaker 5: read his stuff, so I knew nobody knew some of

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Speaker 5: those details. So it seemed pretty interesting and certainly warned

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Speaker 5: us going and talking to him.

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Speaker 1: So your feeling was that Krause knew things he couldn't

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Speaker 1: have known unless he had been at the scene of

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Speaker 1: the murder.

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Speaker 4: That's the way I read to me.

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Speaker 1: After Johnny Krause's confession, he even took the cops on

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Speaker 1: a ride to show them where they could find the

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Speaker 1: bloody clothes he ditched after the murder. During that ride,

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Speaker 1: he also suggested a bit of a detour.

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Speaker 3: The police took him in the police car to show

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Speaker 3: them where he had buried some clothes that he had

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Speaker 3: worn that night, and as they were driving down the

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Speaker 3: street Park Avenue I think it's called two blocks from

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Speaker 3: the Dome building, which is where Michael Frankie.

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Speaker 2: Worked, Kraus said if you want to go see where

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Speaker 2: the knife was they killed Mike Frankie, go over to

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Speaker 2: nine forty two Park Avenue. Kraus was headed to buck Burgess's.

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Speaker 1: Only for some reason the cops didn't go.

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Speaker 4: And that's what Dale Penn in the car.

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Speaker 1: Dale Penn was the then DA overseeing the investigation.

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Speaker 2: And two state cops and Steve Gorham, Krass's attorney, and

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Speaker 2: they couldn't take two minutes out of their drive to

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Speaker 2: the penitentiary to stop buy nine forty two Park Avenue

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Speaker 2: just to check it out. I had a lunch in

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Speaker 2: in cagement or something. You really want to go over there, Johnny, No,

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Speaker 2: I was getting can't you.

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Speaker 4: Take a joke?

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Speaker 1: You'll soon understand ignation behind the Frankie brothers laughter. But first,

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Speaker 1: here's Phil's take on the man who lived at that address,

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Speaker 1: Buck Burgess.

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Speaker 3: What's important about buck Burgess is that he is a

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Speaker 3: completely dissolute criminal. His first charge in California, back when

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Speaker 3: he was in his twenties, was for the murder of

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Speaker 3: a one year old child. He eventually got off with manslaughter.

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Speaker 3: He'd done time for burglary, for assault. He's a pedophile.

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Speaker 3: Most recently, he served time in Colorado for us sexually

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Speaker 3: assaulting a young girl.

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Speaker 4: He's a very dangerous guy.

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Speaker 3: He was out on parol, just like Johnny Krause was

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Speaker 3: out on parole, and he was living two blocks from

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Speaker 3: the Dome building. It's worth noting that when Johnny Krause

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Speaker 3: started getting beyond the simple story that he stabbed Frankie

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Speaker 3: when Frankie caught him burglarizing his car, he started bringing

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Speaker 3: in Buck Burgess. His name and Johnny Crass used to

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Speaker 3: hang out with Buck Burgess. He was a real fringe

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Speaker 3: character even in the underworld. He would hang out in

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Speaker 3: the bushes around Buck's house.

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Speaker 1: And who was Buck living with at the.

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Speaker 3: Time, a woman named Elaine Young, who Kevin eventually talked

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Speaker 3: to when he came out to investigate on his own.

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Speaker 1: This wasn't the first time buck Burgess's name had come

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Speaker 1: up in the investigation, and it won't be the last.

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Speaker 2: The morning January eighteenth, when they were doing a circumferential

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Speaker 2: concentric search where they were going out in bigger and

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Speaker 2: bigger circles looking for any kind of evidence, they came

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Speaker 2: across Elaine Young's van with Buck Burgess at the wheel

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Speaker 2: and questioned him what he was doing there, took his

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Speaker 2: name and all that information, and he said that he

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Speaker 2: did some kids breaking into his house and he was

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Speaker 2: trying to see if he could catch him.

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Speaker 1: But Kevin believes Burgess was more concerned about being caught.

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Speaker 2: My contention is that the ship didn't go down the

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Speaker 2: way it was supposed to, and he was waiting for

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Speaker 2: the cops to come to his house here in case

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Speaker 2: Johnny Cross started yapping.

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Speaker 1: On our trip to the Dome building, we drove to

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Speaker 1: Buck Burchase's then house to get an idea of its

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Speaker 1: proximity to the location of Mike's murder.

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Speaker 2: As nine Park Avenue, the Tan building with the red

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Speaker 2: trim right there, so Buck is here and you can

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Speaker 2: see his house directly straight through there. So he's sitting

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Speaker 2: here watching his own house. And then when he pulled off,

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Speaker 2: the police came back through here. The state police that

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Speaker 2: were doing the search, I think they were resisted by

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Speaker 2: Salem craps, found a knife with blood on it there

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Speaker 2: and it was almost like an in your face type deal,

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Speaker 2: and they figured that he left it, but they couldn't

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Speaker 2: prove it. Did the blood it came back to, I

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Speaker 2: think of his animal blood. But in the discovery when

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Speaker 2: they're taking Kraus out to where Kraus says that he

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Speaker 2: buried the clothing he wore. Dale Penn's in the car.

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Speaker 2: Steve gorm Kraus's attorney, Kennicott, chief of security for Department

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Speaker 2: of Corrections, and he had a guy named Stubblefield that

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Speaker 2: was his assistant. Mike fired Stubblefield and he was rehired

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Speaker 2: after Mike got killed. In Buck's personal belongings, he had

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Speaker 2: the little contact list. Bob Kennicott's home phone number was

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Speaker 2: in that goddamn thing.

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Speaker 1: When did that come out?

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Speaker 2: It didn't come out because I finally got to a

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Speaker 2: lane after the trial and everything else, and after Buck

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Speaker 2: had left and absconded, he left that behind and he's

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Speaker 2: got Bob Kennicott's home phone number in there, chief of security.

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Speaker 2: And Kennicott is in that car with Gorm Dale Penn

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Speaker 2: state police driver. Why he was in there is he's

301
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Speaker 2: got his ears on to tell McAllister what's going on.

302
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Speaker 1: Remember Scott McCallister, that was the assistant ag Mike was

303
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Speaker 1: having trouble getting removed.

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Speaker 2: And Kraus says, if you want to go buy the

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Speaker 2: murderer's house. It's at nine forty two Park Avenue, so

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Speaker 2: that is Buck Burgess's house, and that's where Johnny Cross

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00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,240
Speaker 2: would go quite often. Elaine Young used to come home

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Speaker 2: from work. She worked up at one of the sawmills,

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Speaker 2: and she'd come home from work and Johnny Krass would

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Speaker 2: be hiding in the bushes there waiting for Buck to

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Speaker 2: get in, and he'd never talk to her because she

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Speaker 2: wasn't part of the group, but he'd just hide in

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Speaker 2: the bushes and she'd go into the house say hi, Johnny,

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Speaker 2: and he wouldn't say anything. It was that kind of

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Speaker 2: weird shit.

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Speaker 1: Pat Frankie visited Kraus in prison, hoping to leave with

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Speaker 1: answers about Mike's murder.

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Speaker 2: I went to the penitentiary with Kraus's lawyer, and I

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Speaker 2: had a series of questions written out on the three

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Speaker 2: U five cards that I showed Kraus to the glass.

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Speaker 2: I didn't want to talk. I didn't want to recorded

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Speaker 2: what I was asking and what he was responding to.

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Speaker 2: And I asked him about eight or ten questions and

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Speaker 2: he indicated that he didn't do it, but he knew

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Speaker 2: who did do it, and that he'd be willing to

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Speaker 2: cooperate along those lines.

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Speaker 1: Pat called Phil with a bombshell Krouse shared.

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Speaker 3: He said, Pat, this goes beyond this goes to Corrections.

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Speaker 4: You're onto something Pat told me. I put that in

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Speaker 4: the column.

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Speaker 1: It was after Phil printed that allegation that the infamous

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Speaker 1: car ride with Johnny Krouse took place.

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Speaker 3: Within the week, Dale Penn and a couple of cops

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Speaker 3: took Johnny Cross out on an excursion. He said he

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Speaker 3: would show them where he buried his clothes that night,

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Speaker 3: and they passed the house at nine forty two Park Avenue.

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Speaker 4: This was just two blocks away from the Dome building.

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Speaker 3: He pointed at the house and said, if you want

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Speaker 3: to know who did it or where the knife is,

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Speaker 3: it's over there. He's pointing at buck Burgess's house. And

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Speaker 3: we have the transcript of this.

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Speaker 1: This is what Pat and Kevin were ridiculing earlier. The

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Speaker 1: man who claims to know who killed the head of

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Speaker 1: Corrections offers to take the police to the location of

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Speaker 1: the murder weapon, and they pass.

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Speaker 3: And that afternoon, the record shows he came back and

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Speaker 3: had a meeting with Dyopinn and Sarah Moore, who was

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Speaker 3: then the lead prosecutor on the case, and said that

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Speaker 3: he'd been approached by officials and corrections offered ten thousand

350
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Speaker 3: dollars to kill Frankie, but had backed out of it,

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Speaker 3: and that someone else had then. So all this is

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Speaker 3: going on behind the scenes, and we don't know it

353
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Speaker 3: until the records are released.

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Speaker 1: Some time later, after Phil wrote an article alleging the

355
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Speaker 1: corruption Krause had intimated to Pat and confesses as much

356
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Speaker 1: in greater details to the investigators, something incredible happens. Kraus

357
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Speaker 1: recants his confession and is dropped as a suspect out

358
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Speaker 1: of nowhere.

359
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Speaker 2: I was on the news, you know that he had

360
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,159
Speaker 2: recanted and they had given him another polygraph and he

361
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,119
Speaker 2: passed saying he didn't do it.

362
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Speaker 1: And Kraus seems to have had incentive.

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Speaker 3: Shortly after that, Johnny Kraus was eventually given immunity by

364
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Speaker 3: the DA's office on the condition that he not recant

365
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Speaker 3: his recantation.

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Speaker 1: So it's not just that they didn't like his confession.

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Speaker 1: They didn't like the people his confession would ultimately lead to.

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Speaker 4: That's what it looks like for sure.

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Speaker 1: It was around this time Kevin and Phil finally met

370
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Speaker 1: in person. What were your first impressions of one another.

371
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Speaker 2: As my dad would say, we were kind of sniffing

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Speaker 2: each other's ass.

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Speaker 1: They quickly bonded over the issue that interest in solving

374
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Speaker 1: Mike's murder seemed to be waning.

375
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Speaker 2: I expected this uproar and anger, you know, over my

376
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Speaker 2: brother's murder, instead of this, just shut the hell up,

377
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Speaker 2: We'll take care of it, don't worry. Where was the outrage?

378
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Speaker 2: And that's why I wrote Goldschmidt about that. You know,

379
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Speaker 2: where is your fucking outrage? Why aren't you backing a

380
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Speaker 2: reward fund? You're saying, don't put a reward fund on

381
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Speaker 2: the table? Why with no response? And you asked him

382
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 2: that too in the papers, So why don't you do

383
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Speaker 2: the reward fund? And they never did it.

384
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Speaker 1: Kevin had been instructed not to talk to the press,

385
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Speaker 1: but at this point he'd had enough and was sick

386
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Speaker 1: of following orders.

387
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Speaker 2: I had to make a commitment, and I made the

388
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 2: commitment to film because he hadn't liked me, and they

389
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 2: had not just once, but repeatedly, and then the denial

390
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Speaker 2: of the autopsy report and saying that they couldn't trust

391
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Speaker 2: us not to leak the information, as if we were

392
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 2: at odds with them trying to solve the murder. That

393
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 2: we're going to do something to jeopardize it. What idiotic

394
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 2: and that's Dale Penn.

395
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Speaker 4: Well, that's what they accused him of.

396
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 3: Later, Kevin finally went public with what his brother had

397
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 3: told him, that he was investigating his department, that he

398
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 3: discovered an organized criminal element that was going to clean house,

399
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 3: and they accused him of making it up, as if

400
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 3: he would make up something to derail the investigation.

401
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 4: Of his brother's case.

402
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 3: I mean, they set up a straw man so that

403
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 3: they wouldn't have to deal with a basic question, which

404
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 3: was was there corruption and was Michael Frankie investigating corruption?

405
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 3: Which would have been easy enough to prove if they'd

406
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 3: wanted to, the rest of us could find evidence of it.

407
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 3: Several people and different papers were following it, and it

408
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 3: was clear.

409
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 4: But they set up a.

410
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 3: Straw man, and they attacked Kevin for saying it, and

411
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 3: they tried to ruin him, and.

412
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: They did, they thought, But what they didn't anticipate was

413
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: Kevin would fight back through the relentlessness of Phil Stamford,

414
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: who was continuing to write about the case for The Oregonian,

415
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 1: and newspaper reporter Steve Jackson, who was doing the same

416
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: thing at the Statesman Journal, creating a productive, if somewhat

417
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 1: competitive triangle to solve the case.

418
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 2: I was constantly on the phone with either one of

419
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 2: them all day, and it was Jackson. I can tell

420
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 2: you exactly what's going to come out of his mouth

421
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 2: as soon as I get him on the line. Okay,

422
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 2: don't tell Stanford. But and then he tells me something

423
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 2: and I calls Phil. He says, Okay, did you talk

424
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,360
Speaker 2: to Jackson? He says, okay, don't tell him. I talked

425
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 2: to you. But what did he say? Okay, well, don't

426
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 2: tell him I told you this. But I thought, okay, okay,

427
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 2: don't worry about that. But they kept lighting each other's fire.

428
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:18,880
Speaker 1: Here's Steve Jackson's take.

429
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 6: Phil was a calumnist and he did not buy the

430
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 6: official explanation. At least, you know, he was questioning some things,

431
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 6: and you know, so I had some respect for Phil

432
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 6: early on as somebody who you know, at least he's

433
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 6: not buying the party line here and is asking some

434
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 6: different questions. I recognized fairly early on that Kevin in particular,

435
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 6: was passing information from me, talking to me and then

436
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 6: talking to Phil, because I would see this sort of

437
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 6: pop up in Phil's columns a little bit later, and

438
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 6: I knew he wasn't down in Salem and looking at

439
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 6: some of this stuff. But it evolved to a point of,

440
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 6: you know, Bill would call me and asked what was

441
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,120
Speaker 6: going on in my investigation, and we would talk and

442
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 6: he would ask permission, but he would run some of

443
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 6: what I was doing, almost as a sort of preview

444
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 6: of what was going to come out in the Statesman Journal.

445
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 6: The next day he would have it in his column

446
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 6: up in the Oregonian back to Kevin.

447
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 2: So it was people that didn't take the Oregonian, that

448
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 2: were in the Salem area that would see Jackson, referring

449
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 2: to a recent column by Phil Stanford, mentions that there

450
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 2: was a drawing of the man in the pin stripe

451
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 2: suit that they said on for six months.

452
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sketch, the drawing of the man in the

453
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: pinstripe suit, which police initially refused to release, would become

454
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: a huge piece in the puzzle of Mike's murder.

455
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 3: It released a couple others that were badly done, and

456
00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 3: he could have been anyone. But there was this other

457
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 3: d that was circulating, and I called down to Dale

458
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 3: Penn the district attorney, and I said, why haven't you

459
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 3: released it? He said, well, because it's just not very good.

460
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 4: So you know, what did I know?

461
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 3: But I kept calling and finally got in touch with

462
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 3: Binte and she said, oh, why not, and so she.

463
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 4: Faxed it to me thirty minutes before my deadline too.

464
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 3: You know, I had a eleven thirty deadline for the column,

465
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 3: and I had the column already written, and I was

466
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 3: going to have to go without the picture, but I

467
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 3: put it there. It was this picture of this hispanic man,

468
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 3: well dressed, well groomed, mustache wearing a suit. Man in

469
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 3: the pinstripe suit is what became known as And I

470
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 3: finished with the picture at the bottom and I said.

471
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 4: Who is this man?

472
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 1: And Phil would soon find himself a target too, on

473
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: a very public stage.

474
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 4: That's what set off Goldsmith.

475
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 3: And next thing I knew, he was holding the press

476
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 3: conference and a radio reporter called me I was at.

477
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 4: My desk and played me the tape. I didn't know

478
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 4: it was going to happen.

479
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 3: He's saying, issue after issue is in the paper and

480
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 3: nobody has ever stopped to say, where does this garbage

481
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 3: come from? This is the governor you're impugning the character

482
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 3: of the Oregon State Police, which is an independent investigation.

483
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 3: Talk is cheap, And so he held another conference and

484
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 3: press conference and called it BS.

485
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: So suddenly you're being attacked by the governor of Oregon.

486
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah.

487
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 3: In a way, it was sort of a heady experience.

488
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 3: You know, I was writing a column going toe to

489
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 3: toe with the governor. They you know, the reporter asked

490
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 3: me for a comment and I said, I think the

491
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 3: governor's getting bad advice. Well, as it turns out, it

492
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 3: was at least that. I'm not sure that that's all

493
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 3: it was. But in the newsroom, especially with my editors,

494
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 3: this had a huge effect because at the time, Goldschmid

495
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 3: was the golden boy of Oregon politics.

496
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: After these are articles, Ran and Phil began to raise

497
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: questions about the investigation and what the police were hiding.

498
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: Da Dale Penn also turned to the press to discredit Kevin.

499
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 3: Let's not forget that Dale Penn. At the same time,

500
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 3: I was going along with his strategy and making statements

501
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 3: to the press that he'd never even heard about this

502
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 3: organized criminal element until he read about it in the paper,

503
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 3: meaning my column. So in other words, they were calling

504
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 3: Kevin a liar, and this was the beginning of their strategy.

505
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 3: I guess to paint him as a disturbed, distraught family

506
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 3: member who's just gone over the edge and is making

507
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 3: things up.

508
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 2: I was too foolish to realize that they were trying

509
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 2: to make me feel like I was nuts, So I

510
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 2: didn't go nuts because I realized that I was telling

511
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 2: the truth. Therefore they couldn't guess like me.

512
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 3: It was their only chance to discredit you for what

513
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 3: you said about what your brother had been doing when

514
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 3: he was killed, that he was investigating corruption. They had

515
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 3: to attack you because they couldn't attack the evidence on corruption.

516
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 3: And so they were lying from the beginning about them

517
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 3: that I never said anything about it to him, kiss

518
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 3: my ass. That's what they kept coming to the governor's

519
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 3: office was using that as an excuse too.

520
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 2: How dare Kevin Frankie say anything bad about the state

521
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 2: police when they're the same people that cleaned this mess.

522
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 4: Up the last time in eighty six.

523
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 2: They didn't clean it up, they just rearranged the furniture.

524
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: Information Phil and Kevin would eventually uncover would clarify their

525
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: confusion as to why they were targeted.

526
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 3: It's pretty clear now that by making him the issue,

527
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 3: diverting attention from the real issue, which was was Michael

528
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 3: Frankie investigating corruption and even more to the point, was

529
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 3: there corruption in the correction system. That's what they had

530
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 3: to avoid at all cost, and that's why they went

531
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 3: after Coven. It's one of the more despicable things I've

532
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 3: ever seen, and going after a family member of a

533
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 3: victim who is raising questions about his brother's murder.

534
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: Seriously, it sounds like you guys were turning over stones

535
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: and you found more than a few snakes.

536
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, and a lot of them were still out.

537
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: There coming up on murder in Oregon. The town of

538
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: Salem is stripped back to reveal rank corruption.

539
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 4: But you got a govern the state of Oregon. It's

540
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 4: a god damn pedophile.

541
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: Any thanks possible untethered evil.

542
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 7: You had somebody who was desperate enough to take the

543
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 7: risk of killing the head of corrections. You must have

544
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 7: something really big to hide and terror.

545
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 4: I mean, it was getting really, really scary and really bad.

546
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: And he said he had killed a man and watched

547
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: him die, and much of it would seem linked to

548
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: the miss serious Man in the Penn Strike suit.

549
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 7: Murder in Oregon is hosted by Lauren Bright Pacheco and

550
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 7: Phil Stanford.

551
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 5: Executive producers are Noel Brown, Lauren Brt Pacheco, and Phil Stanford.

552
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 7: Supervising producer and lead editor is Taylor Chaicogne. Sound designed

553
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 7: by Tristan McNeil, Story editing by Matt Riddle, written by

554
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 7: Phil Stanford, Matt Riddle and Lauren Bright Pacheco. Music written

555
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 7: and performed by the Diamond Street Players and mixed by

556
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 7: Taylor Chaqoinne, with music supervision by Noel Brown.

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00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 5: Murder and Oregon is a production of iHeartRadio