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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Greece, you know the other day

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Speaker 1: when second jur was on the stand. This is the

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Speaker 1: lady that worked with Alex, the murdog, that found out

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Speaker 1: he was still in really millions of dollars from clients

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Speaker 1: in the law firm. Remember, the jury wasn't there. They

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Speaker 1: didn't hear any of that that we heard. We actually

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Speaker 1: know more than the jury knows. Well. The judge had

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Speaker 1: a bombshell ruling in court, and that was that this

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Speaker 1: financial mode of financial misdeeds could be heard by the jury.

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Speaker 1: And remember, typically a jury never gets to hear all that.

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Speaker 1: Why because it could be considered to be bad reputation

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Speaker 1: or other bad acts, not the murders. That's what he's

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Speaker 1: on trial for the murders, and that is unconstitutional. But

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Speaker 1: in this case and in other similar cases, this type

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Speaker 1: of evidence is allowed. Why because it shows motive, frame

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Speaker 1: of mind, scheme, course of conduct, and it was contemporaneous.

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Speaker 1: In other words, it was rest jeste all happening at

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Speaker 1: the same time, not some bad thing he did teen

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Speaker 1: years ago, but happening right then. That was motive for

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Speaker 1: the murders of Maggie and Paul, his wife and son.

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Speaker 1: Man it better be some good motive to murder your

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Speaker 1: wife and child, and the way he allegedly did it.

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Speaker 1: So we heard that the other day. That's where I started.

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Speaker 1: We heard her testifying outside the presence of the jury.

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Speaker 1: Why because the judge wanted to hear all that evidence

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Speaker 1: to determine is this admissible? Well, guess what she has

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Speaker 1: been on the witness stand and she came into that

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Speaker 1: courtroom locked and loaded. Let me tell you, guns a blazing.

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Speaker 1: She is not parsing words. Let's take a listen to

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Speaker 1: a little bit of that, Christine, can we play cut five?

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Speaker 1: Let's listen to a second church me. What was your

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Speaker 1: observation of Alec as a lawyer in the office? Alick

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Speaker 1: kept different hours than a lot of the rest of us.

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Speaker 1: He came in and he would work like always loud,

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Speaker 1: always busy, always in a rush. He had the gift

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Speaker 1: to gab, but he'd always seemed last minute and hurried

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Speaker 1: and frenetic. What were your observations of him as a lawyer.

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Speaker 1: I think Alick was successful more from his work ethic,

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Speaker 1: but from his ability to establish relationships and to to

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Speaker 1: manipulate people into settlements and clients into liking him. So

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Speaker 1: he did it through the article. Basically, Okay, she got beat.

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Speaker 1: Now I gave up cussing that I had the twins.

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Speaker 1: I've got an all star panel lined up to make

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Speaker 1: sense of what we know right now. But let me

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Speaker 1: first go to Mark Tate. Tate is a high profile

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Speaker 1: lawyer out of Savannah, which is just a hop, skip

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Speaker 1: at a jump from this courtroom. You know, a high

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Speaker 1: profile lawyer would Tate Lawgroup at Tatelawgroup dot com. Mark Tate.

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Speaker 1: I didn't like anything I just heard because when I finally,

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Speaker 1: after three years of doing something different, I was a

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Speaker 1: law clerk to a federal magistrate than I worked in

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Speaker 1: the antitrust division at the FTC and Consumer Protection, I

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Speaker 1: finally made it to a DA's office and I immediately

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Speaker 1: got put in indictments. How do you draw up an indictment?

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Speaker 1: How do you read police reports and supplementals and figure

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Speaker 1: out legally what should be charged? And I noticed that

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Speaker 1: there was this guy in the drug unit. He was

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Speaker 1: never there when I was there. I'm like, Hey, who's

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Speaker 1: behind that locked door? Who works in there? And oh

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Speaker 1: he keeps odd hours the day and night. I'm like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: even as a novice I knew something was a way

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Speaker 1: wrong with somebody that had odd hours. And listen, don't

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Speaker 1: get me wrong. My dad worked swing shift, you know,

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Speaker 1: one night he'd be on the graveyard shift, one night

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Speaker 1: he'd go in, one day going at seven am. He

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Speaker 1: had all different kind of work hours on the railroad

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Speaker 1: where he worked. So I'm not knocking that, But the

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Speaker 1: way she said it, I mean, if you had a

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Speaker 1: partner and take law group that would blow in about

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Speaker 1: eight pm at night and nobody knows when he comes

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Speaker 1: or when he goes. No, no, right there, something is wrong. Well,

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Speaker 1: it wouldn't happen. That wouldn't happen. Here. I'm a little

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable with you continuing to describe me as a prominent

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Speaker 1: trial lawyer in the Savannah area, because I'm afraid that

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Speaker 1: starts to get a little bit too close to what

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Speaker 1: they're saying about the guy that's on trial for murder now.

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Speaker 1: But I do appreciate the tongue of cheek and way

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Speaker 1: in which you proceed with that. But Nancy to come

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Speaker 1: to your aid a cameo appearance as a defense lawyer,

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Speaker 1: that's not happening. But right there, when she said he

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Speaker 1: kept unusual hours, I know what that means. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: means that nobody was keeping track of his work hours,

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Speaker 1: and that he was unprepared and frenetic. He relied on relationships.

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Speaker 1: No that I don't want a lawyer to rely on relationships.

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Speaker 1: I want them to be prepared and on time. But

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Speaker 1: it's a balancing act. Obviously, Murdoch played off of his

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Speaker 1: family's name and reputation. He made no secret of that.

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Speaker 1: And what this seconder says as she clearly didn't have

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of respect for his lawyer liabilities. She

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Speaker 1: didn't say that he was brilliant. She didn't say that

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Speaker 1: he was a strategic analytic genius. She said that he

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Speaker 1: was a bullying artist, and that's her quote. And I

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Speaker 1: think that what that means is his family's been around

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Speaker 1: for so long that he's able to get people to

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Speaker 1: do things. And she said manipulate, which means you're convincing

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Speaker 1: people to do something that's less than in your best

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Speaker 1: interest because of friendships in charm. I guess, but she didn't. Clearly,

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Speaker 1: she clearly did not have a great deal of respect

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Speaker 1: for his ability as a lawyer. I suspect from the

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Speaker 1: tone of her testimony that she really never did like him,

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Speaker 1: and she probably never liked him because she thought or

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Speaker 1: felt like he had tripped backwards into a very lucrative

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Speaker 1: and prestigious position just because of his birthright. That's what

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Speaker 1: it sounds like to me. But she clearly does not

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Speaker 1: like I never marked Tate. You know, he must be

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Speaker 1: a mind reader. You're a clairvoyant as well as being

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Speaker 1: a high profile lawyer the Savannah area. Because I didn't

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Speaker 1: pick up that she never liked him. I didn't get

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Speaker 1: that at all, Chris, Stay, let me know when we

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Speaker 1: get Anne Emerson hooked tough from WCIV. I didn't get

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Speaker 1: that because remember she worked with Maggie. But now that

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Speaker 1: you're saying it, you might be right, because you know,

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Speaker 1: a leopard, it doesn't change at spots, right, And if

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Speaker 1: he's that way, now, I wonder. You know, I've been

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Speaker 1: doing some digging on my own and managed to dig

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Speaker 1: up a roommate of his in undergrad who said he

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Speaker 1: was an odd duck even in undergrad, that people didn't

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Speaker 1: really want to be. There was just something about him

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Speaker 1: that was odd and they couldn't really put their finger

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Speaker 1: on it. So I'm just wondering if you're right, but

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Speaker 1: remember Mark Tate, she very well likely knew Maggie, and

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Speaker 1: by all accounts, Maggie was just a sweetheart of a person.

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Speaker 1: Because Maggie was a bookkeeper at that firm. Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've been in private practice for over thirty years, and

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Speaker 1: I've worked a lot of different kinds of environments and

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Speaker 1: a lot of different law firms, and I can tell

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Speaker 1: you that the lady who is or the man who

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Speaker 1: was in charge of keeping the books and is the

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Speaker 1: chief financial author of that firm, they have a lot

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Speaker 1: of relationships, but they have a lot of opinions that

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Speaker 1: they very carefully hold to themselves, and they are by

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Speaker 1: the book if they're successful. And sure, she may be

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Speaker 1: friends with with with his wife and may be nice

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Speaker 1: to his wife, but that doesn't necessarily mean she has

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Speaker 1: to like or respect him. And the thing that you

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Speaker 1: want to hear an employee is you know, this man

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Speaker 1: was a fantastic lawyer. This man had a gift of

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Speaker 1: persuasion in the courtroom. He had the ability to convince

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Speaker 1: people that his point of view were his or her

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Speaker 1: point if he was correct. We didn't hear any of that.

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Speaker 1: All we heard is that he keeps weird hours, and

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Speaker 1: you know he got where he got. He did it

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Speaker 1: all the bull. Her words are not mine, all right?

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Speaker 1: Quote let me let me reiterate that again. Listen to

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Speaker 1: this another odd moment that we hear from Jennie second

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Speaker 1: or on the standard. If you think you got an

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Speaker 1: earful and she was outside the jury presence, Oh I

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Speaker 1: wish you could have been in that courtroom today. Take

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Speaker 1: a listener. Cut seven and what is the next page

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Speaker 1: of this exhibited that's the council check payable to forge

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Speaker 1: for eighty three thousand, three hundred and thirty three dollars

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Speaker 1: or thirty three cents, all right, and you recognize the

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Speaker 1: accent signature on there. That's Alex. And so when you

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Speaker 1: were when we last left off, you were telling Alec

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Speaker 1: that it had been done wrong because it had gone

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Speaker 1: straight from the trust account direct to what you believe

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Speaker 1: to be forage at the time. Correct, And it can't

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Speaker 1: go to the law firm or the tax benefits go away,

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Speaker 1: that's right, all right? So you raised those issues with Alec.

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Speaker 1: What was his response when you first talked to him

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Speaker 1: about this? His response was that he was not worried

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Speaker 1: so much about the tax ramifications of saving the taxes

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Speaker 1: that he was trying to get money in Maggie's name

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Speaker 1: due to the boat accident that happened in February of ten,

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. Okay, you know what that means. He's trying

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Speaker 1: to hide money in Maggie's name, and he outright says

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Speaker 1: I'm doing it because of the Malory Beach boat accident.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you that

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Speaker 1: don't know, I don't want to be too inside baseball.

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Speaker 1: Mallory Beach was a nineteen year old girl that was

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Speaker 1: on a speedboat belonging to Murdog being driven by his

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Speaker 1: drunk as a skunk Heizikite son Paul now murder victim.

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Speaker 1: There's Mallory, right, They're beautiful, beautiful girl, and everybody on

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Speaker 1: the boat that night was begging him to slow down.

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Speaker 1: He didn't, and he plowed into some cement pilings. And

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Speaker 1: I've gone and looked at them myself. They're jut up

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Speaker 1: out of the water. You can see them at a

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Speaker 1: great distance. But somehow, instead of veering around them, he

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Speaker 1: plowed right into them. Mallory was thrown over the edge

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Speaker 1: of the boat. This young girl flies over the side

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Speaker 1: of the boat to her death. She was in the

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Speaker 1: water for days. I talked to the emergency crew that

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Speaker 1: had been out looking for her, and when her body

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Speaker 1: was found bloated with water days later, everybody just started crying.

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Speaker 1: It's awful. So that family, the Mallory Beach family, was

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Speaker 1: suing the Murdogs, and as we talked about it yesterday,

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Speaker 1: no Paul problem partially solved. Paul was killed. He was

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Speaker 1: the driver of the boat, so he knows they're going

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Speaker 1: after him for money, after the Murdogs, so he's trying

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Speaker 1: to put money out of his name and into Maggie's name.

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Speaker 1: Did I explain that correctly? Mark take, Yeah, But I

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Speaker 1: think that that is I think that statement to his bookkeeper.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't really make sense to me. And I think

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Speaker 1: there's a big gap in what she's explaining to the

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Speaker 1: jury with regard to the way structured settlements work. And

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Speaker 1: I don't want to bore them anymore than or more

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Speaker 1: board your audience, anymore than man jury maybe board vibing.

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Speaker 1: I have done work in my thirty years with the

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Speaker 1: real and valid Forge Consulting, and the way it works

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Speaker 1: is there's an act, the Structured Settlement Act, whereby an

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Speaker 1: injured individual can direct money directly from the pay or

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Speaker 1: to an insurance company that pays them an annuity over

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Speaker 1: time that is tax free, and so it never comes

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Speaker 1: into possession of it never comes into possession of the firm.

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Speaker 1: And the problem is is that she was not talking

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Speaker 1: about the tax consequences to him. The lawyer still pays

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Speaker 1: tax on your fees. She was talking about the tax

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Speaker 1: consequences to the party because if the firm comes into

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Speaker 1: possession of the funds, they're going to fund that annuity

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Speaker 1: before it goes to the client. That destroys the tax

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Speaker 1: benefit of a structured of an annuity. That's what she

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Speaker 1: was talking about it. And I think once again now listen,

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Speaker 1: no one can dispute that Alec Murdoch. Murdoch was playing

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Speaker 1: fast and loose with money. Clearly that was the case.

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Speaker 1: We can't dispute that. You know what, that's really putting

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Speaker 1: perfume on the pig, isn't it tight playing fast and

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Speaker 1: losard with money. She's still got ten million dollars that

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Speaker 1: we know of. Ye, so sametimes pigs need perfect But

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Speaker 1: the question is is killing his son and is killing

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Speaker 1: his wife? Is that going to And that's what Harpulian

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Speaker 1: is pointing out is is that going to keep the

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Speaker 1: heat off of him from stealing that much money? And

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Speaker 1: that's what That's what's always worried me a little bit

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Speaker 1: is first of all, the complication of describing the financial

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Speaker 1: incentive of what he was doing with the fake forge

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Speaker 1: and also convincing a jury that that murder of his

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Speaker 1: wife and son is going to take the heat off

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Speaker 1: of him financially, and Everson joining me, see you investigat

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Speaker 1: a reporter WCIV Wait a minute, wait for it. Take

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Speaker 1: hold on. And I'm not arguing that it was just

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Speaker 1: the money that was motive for murder. And number one,

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Speaker 1: the state doesn't have to prove motive at all. Number one,

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Speaker 1: let's start with that. But an it wasn't just that money.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't that his law firm had just found out, hey,

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Speaker 1: you're stealing millions. That was happening. His whole life was

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Speaker 1: out of control. Many believe that Maggie wanted a divorce.

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Speaker 1: Paul was high and drunk and ended up basically killing

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Speaker 1: a girl with the boat. That was happening. If Maggie

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Speaker 1: got a divorce, she would go into all of his

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Speaker 1: money and find out they were going broke because he

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Speaker 1: was running through the money and he would be left

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Speaker 1: with nothing, he would get disbarred, he would have nothing left.

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Speaker 1: Plus according to his own lawyers, he's high on opioids.

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Speaker 1: So everything is spinning out. That's the motive, and Nancy,

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Speaker 1: it feels like that's exactly how they're building this case,

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Speaker 1: layer upon layer. That's what we're hearing from the state

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Speaker 1: right now is all of these all of these factors

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Speaker 1: had to play a role. It was as they said

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Speaker 1: in the opening statement, Remember when when Creton Water said,

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Speaker 1: this is the perfect storm, and we're gon we're gonna

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Speaker 1: show you how this perfect storm came together. And there's

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Speaker 1: another thing that was happening the day that Paul and

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Speaker 1: Maggie were murdered. Remember this is also when his father

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Speaker 1: ran off, the patriarch of the Murdoch family, the one

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Speaker 1: who had been from what we can tell through all

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Speaker 1: of these canceled checks and all this money that's been

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Speaker 1: moving around that he had been been at times taking

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Speaker 1: loans out. There was that money was gone. Dad was

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Speaker 1: not around to pick up the pieces right now, so

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Speaker 1: you wonder how that was affecting his mental state as well.

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Speaker 1: And from all accounts that we're hearing in that testimony

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Speaker 1: that's finally going into the courtroom today on these alleged

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Speaker 1: financial crimes. There was an enormous amount of pressure happening

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Speaker 1: that day. You're absolutely right, and Nancy, go ahead, please,

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Speaker 1: So Nancy, it actually did buy him about thirty days

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Speaker 1: reprieve anyway, which is not much for killing your wife

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Speaker 1: and son, but it did postpone some of that investigation

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Speaker 1: for thirty days. I'm hearing the voice of doctor Michelle

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Speaker 1: Dupree for incy pathologist, medical examiner, former detective and author

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Speaker 1: of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Doctor Dupree. A lot of

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Speaker 1: our viewers and listeners wrote in last night after we

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Speaker 1: talked about one witness describing him as fidgety, and I said,

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Speaker 1: well it was he was high on opioids. Don't they

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Speaker 1: make you sleepy? And many of them said they can

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Speaker 1: also make you fidgety, especially if you're trying to come

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Speaker 1: off them. I want to circle back with you on that,

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Speaker 1: doctor Juepree, but back to this woman on the stand.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we soak alled experts can talk to were

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Speaker 1: blue in the face, but nothing says it like Jinny

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Speaker 1: second Er. Take a less an hour cut eight what happened?

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Speaker 1: Went to look for Las. He was standing outside of

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Speaker 1: his office leaning on a file cabinet, and he looked

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Speaker 1: at me with a pretty dirty look, one I had

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Speaker 1: not seen before, and said, what do you need now,

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Speaker 1: clearly disgusted with me. I said, I have reason to

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Speaker 1: believe that you received the farest money directly to you,

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Speaker 1: and you need to prove to me that you did not.

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Speaker 1: And he assured me again that the money was in there,

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Speaker 1: said he was trying to leave it in there to

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Speaker 1: decide what to do as far as structuring some more

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Speaker 1: money or putting more money in Maggie's name. During the

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Speaker 1: middle of our conversation, he took a phone call, and

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Speaker 1: the call was saying that his father was in the hospital.

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Speaker 1: Around four o'clock my phone rank and Elik was asking

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Speaker 1: me some information about his four o one K balance,

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Speaker 1: because he stated he had to get some documents and

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Speaker 1: financials together for a hearing regarding the boat wreck later

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Speaker 1: that week. And you can only assume that he is

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Speaker 1: thinking of rating his and his wife's four oh one

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Speaker 1: K their retirement funds to pay off the balance on

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Speaker 1: what he was soup families being sued for the boating accident.

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Speaker 1: So everything is spinning out of control. Exactly when all

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Speaker 1: of this is happening, and then Jennie gets the realization

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Speaker 1: Gennie's seconder that it wasn't just one case or two cases.

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Speaker 1: He was stealing millions of dollars. Take a listen to

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Speaker 1: Jennie's seconder on the stand. I cut ten and as

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Speaker 1: the council checks hit in the back of my printer,

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Speaker 1: I could see Elik Murdoch's signature on the back. It

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Speaker 1: would say Aled Murdoch and a lot of more Bank

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Speaker 1: of America. And as everyone come out, I started noticing

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Speaker 1: it more and more and the sickest feeling you could

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Speaker 1: fill in the world. I knew that he was stealing

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Speaker 1: all this money. At that point, William Barnes just happened

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Speaker 1: to call over to my office and said what are

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Speaker 1: you doing? How are you doing today? And I said,

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Speaker 1: I'm about to throw up. You need to come over

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Speaker 1: here and showed him the checks, at which point he

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Speaker 1: verified that he thought that was Alex signature as well

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Speaker 1: the fact that his signature was on the back and

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Speaker 1: the endorsement on the back was Bank of America. And

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Speaker 1: what did that inditate to you about all those checks

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Speaker 1: when you saw his signature that they were stolen fees,

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Speaker 1: stolen money. But then just as Alex Murdock is getting

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Speaker 1: confronted about stealing, guess what happens. Take a list. Hour

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Speaker 1: cut nine. I got a call or she started getting

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Speaker 1: texts from friends asking if I hadn't heard Maggie and Alick.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Maggie and Paul had been shot. Nobody knew

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Speaker 1: what was going on, so very scared. You said, this

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Speaker 1: law firm is like a brotherhood, Craig, That's correct. Did

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Speaker 1: everyone rallied to Alex Ai? We did. There's nothing happened

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Speaker 1: that week at work. Everybody spent time with Leik, trying

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Speaker 1: to support him, bringing family mills, attending the funerals. So

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Speaker 1: nothing happened all week after the murders happened. Was anybody

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Speaker 1: at all concerned about getting the proof for those missing

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Speaker 1: fees after those murders? Half At that point the time,

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Speaker 1: we weren't because we were concerned about Elk. He wasn't

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Speaker 1: working a whole lot, he was erratic, We knew he

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Speaker 1: was taking pills. We were just worried about him sanity,

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Speaker 1: so we weren't going to go in there and harass

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Speaker 1: him about money when we were worried about his mental

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Speaker 1: state and the fact that this his family had been killed.

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Speaker 1: So in Emerson and Senior investigative reporter WCIV ABC soundslot,

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Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Dupree is right. The murder of Paul, the

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Speaker 1: murder of Maggie, his wife and son, did get him

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Speaker 1: a reprieve from the firm who was about three inches

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Speaker 1: up his tailpipe about all the stolen money. Well, and

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Speaker 1: Nancy to be super clear about those cuts that we

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Speaker 1: were just listening to as well, the first and the

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Speaker 1: third cuts, those are both happening around the June seventh period.

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Speaker 1: The second cut, that middle cut that we heard about

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Speaker 1: that sick feeling that Gene's seconder was having, that happens

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Speaker 1: three months later and leads us straight into the Labor

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Speaker 1: Day shooting, the botched suicide attempt. That's when she started.

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Speaker 1: The whole system started unraveling. So you have this first

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Speaker 1: event that the state's trying to set up that there

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Speaker 1: was an enormous amount of pressure that day when the

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Speaker 1: call comes through about Randolph. Remember also, Genie's second Church

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Speaker 1: is a very important witness for lots of reasons. She's

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Speaker 1: known Alex since she was sixteen years old. She went

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Speaker 1: to high school with him. She ended up marrying, or

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Speaker 1: her sister ended up marrying Russell Lafitte, who was one

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Speaker 1: of his bankers at Palmetto Saint Bank, who's already gone

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Speaker 1: to federal trial regarding these charges that he was involved

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Speaker 1: in this whole plot with Alec Murdoch. So she has

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Speaker 1: a huge cross to bear in this whole thing, not

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Speaker 1: only that she's the one that had to confront Alec

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Speaker 1: that day, and she's the one that has already said

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Speaker 1: to the jury, I feel like I somehow have responsibility

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Speaker 1: in this because I didn't catch it sooner. That guilt,

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Speaker 1: that overwhelming guilt. You could see it on the jury's faces.

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Speaker 1: They're watching her and then they're looking at Alec. They're

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Speaker 1: watching her and they're looking at Alec and they're putting

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Speaker 1: two and two together. This is a pivotal moment in

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Speaker 1: this trial because this is the first time we have

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Speaker 1: actually heard these financial charges laid out on the table

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Speaker 1: for the jury. We've heard them, we've heard them for

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Speaker 1: the last year. They have not heard them, and this

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Speaker 1: is extremely important for the state to make their case

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Speaker 1: and in rest of the way you're describing. That reminds

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Speaker 1: me so much of when I was trying cases. Nothing

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Speaker 1: else in the world would exist. I'll be looking at

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Speaker 1: the witness and at the jury, witness, jury, witness, jury,

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Speaker 1: and nothing else seemed to exist. Did you hear that?

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Speaker 1: Take that's not a good sign for Murdog for the

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Speaker 1: jurors to be looking at this witness then looking over

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Speaker 1: at Murdog. Don't you know they've had about a snoot

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Speaker 1: full of them already. You don't like that. Clearly this

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Speaker 1: is not a great thing for Murdoch. Clearly things are

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Speaker 1: going poorly bajillion. It can only do so much with

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Speaker 1: a cross examination, and so I think, really, at least

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Speaker 1: from a casual or even a lawyer's position observing this trial,

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Speaker 1: you should view it really as perhaps a lesson in

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Speaker 1: examination and cross examination and how a lawyer will conduct

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Speaker 1: it when maybe they don't have a very great hand

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Speaker 1: to play. Well. I can tell you one thing, tape,

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Speaker 1: they better not bully up on this witness because in jury,

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Speaker 1: she's very likable, she's very believable, and the jury is

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Speaker 1: not gonna like it. If our heart polling or some

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Speaker 1: other defense attorney starts well and on her and getting

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Speaker 1: her upset and bullying her. But guys, today I have

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Speaker 1: two more experts for you. One is about a jury

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Speaker 1: consultant and she is very astute and learned when it

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Speaker 1: comes to tampering with witnesses. We also have a forensics

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Speaker 1: expert to discuss what we're finally hearing about gunshot residue.

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Speaker 1: Now a lot of us have heard about it, but

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Speaker 1: the jury is just now hearing about all of this.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about bullying the witness

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Speaker 1: and one witness really touched my heart. I want you

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Speaker 1: to take a listen to our cut two. This is

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Speaker 1: about bullying witnesses. Listen, what did he did? He was

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Speaker 1: at the house and I'm not one hundred and city

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Speaker 1: following he was telling you or saying to you that

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Speaker 1: he was at the house. When did night of the murders,

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Speaker 1: the night of the murder? Yes, what was he telling

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Speaker 1: you about that he was at the house the night

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Speaker 1: of the murder, that he'd been in thirty to forty minutes.

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Speaker 1: Did he indicate to you what he wants you to

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Speaker 1: do with that information? No? No, what did he say?

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Speaker 1: He did say that he was at the house at

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Speaker 1: thirty to forty minutes, I said, he said, what was

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Speaker 1: he there at thirty to forty minutes at night? Not

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Speaker 1: to Michaeldol, Why are you fry? I think a good family,

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Speaker 1: a good family, and I love wor getting here and

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry all this happen. Joining me is Christina Marianachas.

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Speaker 1: Not only are you a psychologist or a psychiatrist. I

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Speaker 1: know you're also with JD. But you've got a lot

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Speaker 1: of initials by your name Christina. But your expertise is

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Speaker 1: jury consulting, strategy advisor. You're the author of pattern Vodyer

429
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 1: Questions and you can find an expert services dot com. Christina,

430
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. What do you make

431
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: of that witness who broke down crying on the stand

432
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: after she was bullied. I believe Murdock came up to

433
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 1: her after mister Randolph, his mother, his father's memorial. It

434
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: was at someone's funeral or memorial. He comes up and says, hey,

435
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: do you remember I was at my mom's house for

436
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 1: thirty forty minutes? Right? Right? Okay, bye. Well, clearly this

437
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: witness has a close relationship with the family, and that's

438
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: why she seemed to be so emotional and she seems torn.

439
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: I'm sure that she really cared about Alec as well

440
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: and all the other family members. I think the word

441
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: bully seems a little strong for what the testimony was.

442
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 1: I think there was a suggestion there, and certainly witnesses

443
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 1: their recollection of time periods is very different, not always accurate,

444
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: so thirty minutes to one person could be twenty minutes

445
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: to another. I think him saying that seemed off to her,

446
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 1: and I believe she called her brother afterwards. She felt off,

447
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: but it didn't seem to be threatening per se. Well,

448
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 1: all I know she called her brother, the chief of

449
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: police in a neighboring county, and she's so upset about

450
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: what happened she broke down on the stand and started crying.

451
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: So the time actually is critical to proving this case,

452
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: because if he was at his others at the time

453
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: of the murders, then he's innocent. If he's lying about

454
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 1: the time, then he's guilty. It's just really that simple.

455
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: So twenty minutes or forty minutes makes a big difference

456
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 1: in this case. And if she didn't feel bullied, then

457
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: why is she crying on the stand. I think she's

458
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: just from the whole situation. Okay, so is that tight

459
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: jump in take I was just going to say one

460
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 1: thing briefly, is we and I a my firm, and

461
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: when we try cases, we've had the pleasure of working with,

462
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: you know, top notch jury consultants like Christine, and you know,

463
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: we rely on input of folks, folks other than lawyers

464
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: to get a feel for the way a jury is responding.

465
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: And so, you know, lawyers think and we all think

466
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: that we are the most skilled at forming our questions

467
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: and judging the way the answers to those questions are

468
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: interpreted by others. But sometimes it takes someone who is

469
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: not quite knee deep in it, as as perhaps you

470
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: and maybe even I might find ourselves at this point.

471
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: Which's interesting that she finds that this is a moved witness,

472
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: not a bullied witness. And so it's those kinds of

473
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: things I think a trial lawyer should listen to, perhaps

474
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: in shaping, you know, the cross examination of future witnesses.

475
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: Is it's going to be a person who's going to

476
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: be emotionally involved with the family who's going to break down,

477
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: and be careful of that and going for so I

478
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: think I think she's right, I think certainly not the

479
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: situation and Emerson joining me w CIV this woman is

480
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: a phrase. She's going to lose her job if she doesn't,

481
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: say Alex Murdog was at the mother's house for forty minutes,

482
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: and I find that to be very, very concerning. And

483
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: also in the same breath he said, hey, uh, aren't

484
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: you about to get married? Weddings are expensive. I'm going

485
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: to help you with that, all right. I mean, it's

486
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: just so obvious. That's what I was just thinking about.

487
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: Nancy was that next comment, the way she put it.

488
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: We don't know the exact timeline, but we know that

489
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: it was during this very emotional aftermath of Randolph Murdoch's funeral,

490
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: who was the patriarch, an incredibly powerful figure in these parts.

491
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 1: He was a solicitor, you know, and part of that

492
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: Murdoch legal framework that we understand. So you're already dealing

493
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: with an incredibly strong family, You've got a guy who's

494
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: who's a big guy, who's like, I could help you

495
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: with that wedding, and you're getting married soon. So there's

496
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: like another level that this state was intimating that there

497
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: was another intimidation going on as well, so that's something

498
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: that we should keep in mind about this witness, but

499
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: also that she's doing this in front of Alec. She's

500
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: doing this right with Alec Murdock in the room. I mean,

501
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: I couldn't help but be watching that interaction. Once again,

502
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: it's so important to be able to see what's happening

503
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: in that courtroom. And I would not be surprised if

504
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: she did start crying because she's looking at this man

505
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: who he's pointing the finger out to some degree right

506
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: on the time frame and the alibi. But remember, there's

507
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: a very good reason why this seat put her up

508
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,239
Speaker 1: there as well, not just because she can, you know,

509
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: connect these dots. But this jury is a majority is female.

510
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: So what were they doing as they're watching this interaction?

511
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,719
Speaker 1: This hardened look from the defendant over here, they're watching

512
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: it very intently. It was really powerful. And there's more

513
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: from another witness taking us in our cut one. Did

514
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 1: you see the defendant there? I did? And did you

515
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: have a conversation with him about the boat case? I didn't,

516
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: all right, relate that conversation with the court. Please, yeah,

517
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: I think I'm not certain that it was a fundraiser

518
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: either for mister harpootlean or. It was a fundraiser for

519
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: Lindsey Graham. Alex sees me and he comes across and

520
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: he gets up close in my face and says, hey, bo,

521
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: what's this. I'm hearing about what you're saying. I thought

522
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: we were friends, And I replied, we are friends. If

523
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: you don't think I can burn your house down, and

524
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: that I'm that I'm not doing everything and I'm not

525
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: going to do everything, You're wrong. You need to settle

526
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: this case. The point of it was we're friends. I

527
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: took it as he tried to intimidate me. He didn't

528
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: intimidate me, and sort of bully me into backing off

529
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: straight back out to Kristina Marinacas, jury consult and strategy

530
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: advisor author, A pattern of vadier questions, Christia, what do

531
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: you make of that testimony? Well, now we've got a

532
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: problem because you've got a pattern. You know, jurors. What

533
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: I've learned from doing this. We do focus groups and

534
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: mock trials, and you could have jurors see the same

535
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: witness testimony and then come away with different conclusions. But

536
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: when you have multiple witnesses lining up suggesting the same thing,

537
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: it creates a more cohesive, believable story for the prosecution.

538
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: So how do you think that impacts a jury, Christina, Well,

539
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: you know you said earlier that the state doesn't have

540
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: to prove a motive, but from a jurist perspective, they

541
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: need to see a motive because the lack of a

542
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: motive to them is brings a reasonable doubt. And that's

543
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: really what the defense is to prove here, is is

544
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: just that there's a reasonable doubt. That's how you can

545
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: get a conviction in these types of cases are going

546
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: to acquittal, you know, talking as you know, the plaintiffs

547
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: lawyer in this case, the fellow who is approached at

548
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:33,479
Speaker 1: this fundraiser for either or Poolian or Lindsey Graham. For

549
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: Alec to come up to him and try to threaten

550
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: him in that fashion does only one thing. And I'm

551
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: the kind of lawyer that represents people who've had bad

552
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: things happen to him in instances like that for the

553
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: most part, And if a defendant comes up and tries

554
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: to harass or intimidate me as the counsel for somebody

555
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: who we believe is genuinely injured, first of all, it's infuriating,

556
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: but we also know that we're going to get to

557
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: cross examine that person later at a trial or a

558
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: depth position and hang them out. And so to me,

559
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: that just kind of shows that Murdoch is sort of

560
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 1: stupid and thinks that he can get away with anything,

561
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 1: and that may be more so helpful to a prosecution,

562
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: to the prosecution and answering questions of juror might have

563
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: about why this would happen. It may just be that Murdoch,

564
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: you know, just behaves in ways that he thinks there

565
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: are no consequences for his conduct. Leonard Romero joining us

566
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: out of Pasadena, Forensic Firearms Examiner and ballistics expert. You

567
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: can find him at Ballistics firearms Expert dot com. Leonard,

568
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to what we're

569
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: learning about gunshot residue in our cut four. About that

570
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: rain jacket. Listen rain whatever, Subscribe me so I can

571
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: check the bottom card. Yes, sir, my dates, the date

572
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: and my initial are here in the bottom cuff. And

573
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: tell the ladies and gentlemen, how did you process Where

574
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: did you attempt to get particle lists? Basically the entire garment.

575
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 1: We market it off in different sections again and where

576
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: Megan advised me to collect from and I repeatedly dabbed

577
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: the particle lift across each section until it last adhesive

578
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 1: these particle lists. Yes, sir, we also sampled the inside

579
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: of this garment as well. Did you test it or

580
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: take a sample from the outside of the hood, Yes, sir,

581
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: we did. Did you take sample from the inside of

582
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: the it, Yes, sir, we did. When you're examining all

583
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: of these items, do you wear gloves, yes, sir, to

584
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: make sure we're not contaminating it, as well as to

585
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: protect ourselves from anything that may be on the garment.

586
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: You know, Leonard Romero, you're the expert. But I just

587
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 1: want to tell you what my friends on Twitter, Insta

588
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: and Facebook told me last night. They said it would

589
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: be a cold day in h double l if they

590
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: went hunting and a bright blue poncho or raincoat. And

591
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: I hadn't really thought of that, but they're right. Okay,

592
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: So that's said. What do you think about Jamie Hall,

593
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: the scientists that found gunshot residue? What do you think

594
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: about that testimony? Oh, she did a great job. Her

595
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 1: collection techniques were consistent with the way we would go

596
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 1: ahead and collect gunshot residue with these sticky little discs.

597
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: I've done it hundreds of times. Could you explain exactly

598
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: how it's done. It's light lifting baby powder. Could you

599
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: explain it. It's very delicate process. Yes, man. What it

600
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: is is it's primer gunshot residue. Primer gunshot residue comes

601
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: from the rear portion of the gun when it's discharge,

602
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,280
Speaker 1: it comes off the primer of the cartridge, as opposed

603
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: to coming from the front of the barrel. This comes

604
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: out from the rear or the size of the firearm. Now,

605
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: if we look at this case in totality, we've got

606
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: seven eight shots that were fired from large guns, shot gun,

607
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: and of course that three hundred blackout rifle. So we've

608
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: got a lot of gunshot residue in the area, so

609
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 1: to speak. So what they're gonna do is they're going

610
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: to take these small metal tabs that have an adhesive

611
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: on it, and they're going to dab the areas on

612
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 1: the clothing or on the individual and to go ahead

613
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 1: and see if they can collect any of these small particles.

614
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:24,879
Speaker 1: These particles exist in small spheres and they're consistent with barium, antimony,

615
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: and lead, and then they go ahead and put it

616
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 1: in a scanning electron microscope where they can physically see

617
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 1: the particles and then they can also chemically analyze the

618
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: particles to come to the conclusion that it is gunshot residue.

619
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 1: You know, And Emerson WCIV ABC from where did authorities

620
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: get the raincoat? Where was it found? Well, you know,

621
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: there's a couple of issues with that as well, and

622
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: one of them is that this blue raincoat wasn't found

623
00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: until three months after the murders found at Almeda. Now,

624
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: according to that witness that we just heard, the one

625
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: that started wrote down on the stand talking about her

626
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 1: confrontation with Alec Murdoch, Shelley Smith was the caretaker and

627
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: what we learned yesterday was that she was in the

628
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,720
Speaker 1: house and she hears a knock on the bedroom window

629
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: at like six thirty in the morning and Alec comes

630
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: in carrying what appears to be a big blue something

631
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 1: bundled up in his arms and he high tails it

632
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: upstairs to the second bedroom. Now, this isn't an area

633
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: where she goes very often, so she doesn't from what

634
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: we understand, she didn't really investigate it for what it

635
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: was worth. Three months later, Sled comes and does a

636
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 1: search of the mother's home, Alec mother's home and discovers

637
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,359
Speaker 1: this raincoat in the back of the closet. Now, right now,

638
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 1: we've just been allowed to bring that blue raincoat into evidence.

639
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: That was just decided this morning. There was a lot

640
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: of back and forth between the defense and the state

641
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: because this witness, Shelley Smith, just wasn't one hundred percent

642
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: sure what it was. Was it a tarp, was it

643
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: a raincoat? So of course defense is using that and

644
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: getting right in there to try and say, hey, we

645
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: don't even know what she saw. Why are we Why

646
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: are we even using this raincoat that's gotten GSR on

647
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: it if we don't even know that it's tied to

648
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,280
Speaker 1: what happened in this whole timeline of events. So there's

649
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 1: they're going to use that. That's just something we need

650
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 1: to be aware of that that is something that defense

651
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 1: is going to use. Is this witness wasn't clear on

652
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: what she saw was it a tarp or a raincoat?

653
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: So there's this is gonna still come up a few

654
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: more times. And so bottom line, the blue raincoat was

655
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 1: found at Murdog's mother's home upstairs. Is that correct? That's

656
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,479
Speaker 1: what we've been told yes, and an Emerson. What day

657
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: was it, as it relates to the murderers that this

658
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 1: blue raincoat was brought to his mother's home by Alex

659
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: murdog What day the day after the murders, week after

660
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 1: the murders, win, I want to say, this was three

661
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: days after um okay Randolph Senior passed away, So this

662
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: was after the murder. So this is the tenth is

663
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: when he died. Then there was a funeral and that's

664
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: it was after that because the tenths were still up

665
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 1: after the murders of Paul and Maggie. Time stories with me.

666
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: It'sy grace. You know, doctor Michelle Dupree. Yesterday you said something.

667
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:50,479
Speaker 1: You said that the caretaker, Alex Murdoch's mother's caretaker, thought

668
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: it was very odd that he came so early in

669
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: the morning, and I went, no, he came late at

670
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: night the night of the murders. And you said he

671
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: also came early in the morning. This is what you

672
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: were talking about. Because I've never heard you make a

673
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 1: mistake before in the facts or your analysis. And when

674
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 1: you win it was in the morning. I'm like, no,

675
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: it was at night the night of the murders. You're

676
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,720
Speaker 1: talking about this and that was odd that he shows

677
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 1: up at six thirty in the morning to go hide

678
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: a blue raincoat. You are absolutely right, doctor Debrae. Yes, Nancy,

679
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: she said that he had never done that in the

680
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: three years that she had worked for that family, that

681
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: he had never come early in the morning and only

682
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: rarely at night. Absolutely correct with the odd hours. To

683
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 1: Leonard Romero, firearms examiner, ballistics expert, gunshot residue is so

684
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: easy to get rid of. I mean you could do

685
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: like this and it's got it's literally like baby powder

686
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 1: or that, or wash your hands. That's why you don't

687
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 1: want to let it defend and go the bathroom on

688
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: the scene if there's been a shooting, because all he's

689
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,240
Speaker 1: got to do wash his hands and it's all gone.

690
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: It's really a miracle that this rankout was found still

691
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 1: bearing gunshot residue, is it not? That is correct. It

692
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: is absolutely correct. Because this stuff is transitory. It can

693
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: be washed off very quickly. Just as you alluded to suspects,

694
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,399
Speaker 1: I've had them where they're rubbing their pants to try

695
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: to get rid of it on their pants, or you know,

696
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:32,280
Speaker 1: they're in a chase, they're running. We lose the gunshot residue.

697
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 1: But in essence, he preserved the evidence here, okay, by

698
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: securing it. The other thing that's of interest here is

699
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 1: how the caretaker describes how he was handling the raincoat

700
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: as if there was something in it, something was carried

701
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: in it, or just the way he was holding it,

702
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 1: as opposed to it's just a raincoat. We put it

703
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 1: on our arm or put it on her hand and

704
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: walk with it. So that's kind of an interest as well.

705
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:04,800
Speaker 1: But it looks like the evidence was preserved. It's placed inside,

706
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: it's folded up or I mean with me, I would

707
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: hang it up to let it dry out, or go

708
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: hang it in a closet with the other raincoats and

709
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 1: coats and Emerson wciv. Is there an intimation that he

710
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: carried a gun in it or that he had been

711
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: wearing it? Oh more than an intimation, I mean, I

712
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: think the objection was sustained. But basically at one point

713
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 1: he said, is it like it was? It like the

714
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: State was asking miss Smith, was it like he was

715
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: carrying a rifle? And she said yes, And they, of

716
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: course defense one objection. You know, we don't know that

717
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 1: it was a rifle, and that and those are the

718
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: kind of things that they get objected to. But the

719
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: jury heard it right. I mean they heard him say

720
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: the word rifle. Yeah, the bell has been wrong. It

721
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: cannot be unrung now. And see that's where you need

722
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: a really quick lawyer to jump up before the answer

723
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 1: can come in. But she gave the answer. They worked

724
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 1: quick on the draw. Pardon the pun. They show jumped

725
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: up the minda. They are the question before she could answer.

726
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: That's why they're getting paid to do. It's like a

727
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: gun slinger. For Pete's sake. Guys. There's one other thing,

728
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: and I don't know if everybody caught it or not,

729
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: but I want you to hear something that's missing. Take

730
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: a listen to our cut three. Can you show these

731
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:37,399
Speaker 1: to the jury, sir? Show the jury will put you.

732
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: I'll hold the show the jury what you so with shoes,

733
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: when we collect from them, we're going to collect again

734
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,280
Speaker 1: to the area that would be closest to the discharge

735
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: of the firearms, so the front of the shoe. Um

736
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 1: So in this case, I would do the area where

737
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: the laces would typically be and the front toe. Depending

738
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 1: on how well the adhesive continues, it will depend on

739
00:44:57,760 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: how far back I go, but I'll start with the

740
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: toe and then work area down the sides. Is this

741
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: the condition they were when you saw him one eight

742
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: twenty one? Thing, there was more grassy type material on

743
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: him when I had them. Do you remember did you

744
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: see anything you look like blood? I did not make

745
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 1: any note of that. No, sir, well you know to

746
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 1: you doctor at Michelle Dupree, that doesn't mean to me

747
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 1: that he was not there at the time of the murders.

748
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: It means to me that he changed his shoes. We

749
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: know he changed his clothes that day. Hey, Christine, do

750
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: you have the picture of his wardrobe change the video

751
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: that was taken that afternoon. He's got on lawn and

752
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: pants and a shirt. And then that evening when the

753
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: cops got there after the shootings, he had in a

754
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 1: white T shirt and short there. Oh, thank you, Christine.

755
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: You already had that one your sleeve, didn't you. That's

756
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 1: all in one day. Now, if my husband ran in

757
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: and did a wardrobe change, I would call his mother

758
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 1: and say, something is wrong. David is doing wardrobe changes

759
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,720
Speaker 1: in the middle of the day. He changed his shoes too.

760
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 1: Look Look at what we see his shoes right there?

761
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 1: There what were they called an carry slide on Loaford Sperry. Yes,

762
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: and then when the cops get there, he's got on

763
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: the tennis shoes, so of course there was no blood.

764
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,839
Speaker 1: Doctor Dupree Nancy. Also, we don't know if he has

765
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: on a T shirt or at least I cantel under

766
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: that blue shirt. And if I remember correctly, there were

767
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:36,959
Speaker 1: actually three gunshot particles gunshot residue particles found on this

768
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: infamous white T shirt. If that was under his clothing

769
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: that we don't know where it is now, then that

770
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: could certainly be something that is significant. And Emerson tell

771
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:52,399
Speaker 1: me about the marks the spots on his white T shirt. Well,

772
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,800
Speaker 1: once again, that's a huge bone contention between the defense

773
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: and in the state right now because the States said

774
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:03,839
Speaker 1: that they found blood spatter from an incident on that

775
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: like over a hundred blood spatter spots on that T shirt.

776
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: The defense has been fighting at tooth and nail before

777
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 1: this trial ever started. It was the one piece that

778
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: we thought was going to be just a lynchpin to

779
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:22,320
Speaker 1: this case, and it hasn't gotten presented yet. We're thinking

780
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 1: it's because the prosecution, because they I think that the

781
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: state felt like they had done such a good job

782
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: of the defense had done such a good job of

783
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 1: discounting the expert they had on blood spatter that they

784
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: went ahead and we're seeing a well, we feel like

785
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 1: we've seen a shift in their focus and they're now

786
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 1: saying that he changed his clothes. So that kind of

787
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: takes the pressure off of having to bring this blood

788
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: spatter up again with this T shirt. So this is

789
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 1: what we've heard about the T shirt in pre trial motions,

790
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,879
Speaker 1: trying to get it in. Still hasn't gotten in, and

791
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:57,839
Speaker 1: I feel like the state has moved on and said

792
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: he changed his clothes. So whatever was on that T shirt,

793
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: if it's transferred, then so be it. We're not going

794
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 1: to try and try and prove anything because we haven't

795
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 1: heard anything yet. But I mean, should I believe murdog

796
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 1: or my lying eyes, because look, he's got on Sperry

797
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 1: slip ons right there that afternoon, and when the cops

798
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,399
Speaker 1: get there, he's got on a different outfit and ten

799
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: issues that miraculously have no blood on them. Let me

800
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 1: ask you another question about gunshot residue. Leonard Romero joining

801
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 1: us out of Pasadena. When you shoot a gun, gunshot

802
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 1: residue will only fly a very limited distance. How far

803
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: would it go, Leonard, We don't know exactly because we

804
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: don't have the weapons, but it is going to go

805
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 1: a limited distance. And it also depends the environment that

806
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: you're in. If you're fairly closed in environment, you're going

807
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 1: to have a lot of it on you, but it's

808
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 1: limited in its distance. You're correct in that, Yes, long

809
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 1: story short? Can I just break it down? If they're

810
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 1: gunshot residue on that raincoat, that means that Rankoat was

811
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: within at most three feet from the gun when it

812
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 1: was fired there. Would you disagree with that, Leonard? No,

813
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: given where it's at. Also, I would add that it

814
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: is a distinct possibility that he carried either ammunition components

815
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,879
Speaker 1: in there, or the rifles itself or a rifle. Typically,

816
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: it's just a given that gunshot residue will not travel

817
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 1: beyond three to five feet. So number one, what was

818
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:48,240
Speaker 1: gunshot residue doing on the raincoat that the caregiver, Mischelle

819
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 1: Smith sees him coming in and hiding upstairs at his

820
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: mother's house. A lot swirling in the courtroom right now?

821
00:49:56,080 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: And when are we going to hear from cousin Eddie

822
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: Curtis Edward aka Eddie Smith, that admits he shot Murdog

823
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: in the head. There's so much coming out about that,

824
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: their rumors were swirling. We definitely expect to see cousin

825
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 1: Eddie this week. I thought it was going to be

826
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: earlier in this week, but we're now thinking that it

827
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 1: might get shoved down a little bit down into the

828
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 1: later part of this week, just because there's so much

829
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 1: testimony on these alleged financial crimes that still need to

830
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 1: go through. Cousin Eddie is critical to the state, of course,

831
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 1: because I mean even the defendants of attorneys say that

832
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: this was his longtime drug dealer. Cousin Eddie also was

833
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: a relative, you know, two removed. Cousin's removed, but cousin

834
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: Eddie has been in his life since from what I

835
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:54,359
Speaker 1: can tell, at least twenty thirteen, as a person who

836
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: he leaned on for all kinds of odd jobs that

837
00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 1: we're going to hear about, and we're going to hear

838
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: about as legend connection to the drug connection and with Eddie,

839
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 1: there's a lot that came out in free trial. I'm

840
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 1: thinking we're going to hear from him for sure. By Friday.

841
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: They've got to get it out there because I don't

842
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,799
Speaker 1: think the words coming on hands right now. We'll go

843
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: pass next much into next week. I think we probably

844
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:23,399
Speaker 1: only have another week with the prosecution. Yeah, if the

845
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 1: word is and we'll see if it's true, because there's

846
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 1: a lot of words floating around the courthouse that Curtis

847
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: Edward Smith will testify and I put his lawyer on

848
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: the hot seat. I knew she wasn't going to answer

849
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,879
Speaker 1: that would violate her attorney client oath. But I think

850
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 1: it's going to state that Murdog told him he shot

851
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:48,240
Speaker 1: Paul and Maggie. That's the best case scenario for the state.

852
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 1: He might chicken out on the stand and waffle once

853
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,240
Speaker 1: he's right there in front of Murdog. We'll see what happens.

854
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: But I would say that's pretty much as you're indicating

855
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 1: and the culmination of the state's case. Hey, and quick question.

856
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: I got a hundred questions about is Murdock eating something

857
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,919
Speaker 1: in the courtroom. No, he's chewing on something. Though I've

858
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: been watching too. I think he's chewing on some gum

859
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: or something. That's what it looked like. But it also

860
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,359
Speaker 1: is like this weird clenching his jaw. But I think

861
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 1: he's been popping a little bit of gum or something

862
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 1: and chewing gum. Okay, let me throw that very quickly

863
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: to Christina Marinacas, jury consulting and strategy advisor. He needs

864
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 1: to take a page out of Simpson. OJ Simpson, dear,

865
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 1: I bring that specter up, who sat there and seemed

866
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,879
Speaker 1: not over the top jovial, but at least friendly toward

867
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: the jurars. People think he's eating. I had fifty questions

868
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: pop up on social what is he eating? Whatever he's doing,

869
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:48,359
Speaker 1: he needs to stop for his own sake. One thing

870
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 1: that we tell witnesses defendants is that the microphone is

871
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: always on, the cameras always rolling. You should assume that

872
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:56,919
Speaker 1: you were being watched by those juries all the time,

873
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 1: from the minute you walk into the parking lot all

874
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 1: the way in the restroom. You always have to be mindful,

875
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 1: and jurs pick up on those things. One thing that

876
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: jurors will take signs of nervousness, like chewing gum or hedging,

877
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: not making good eye contact. They assume those are signs

878
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 1: of dishonesty or signs of being uncomfortable, and so jurs

879
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 1: may make conclusions from that behavior that shows he's nervous

880
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 1: about what's being set up on that stand. And also

881
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: we've set him breakdown crying a couple of times, And

882
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,839
Speaker 1: I can't help but think he's not crying because he's

883
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,800
Speaker 1: sorry he's did it. He's crying because he's sorry he

884
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:37,760
Speaker 1: got caught. Because I'm analyzing, when does Murdoch start crying

885
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 1: as opposed to what's happening in the courtroom at that moment.

886
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:46,319
Speaker 1: Is it extremely probitive? Is it helping the state? So,

887
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:49,439
Speaker 1: Martin Tay, you've tried a lot of jury trials, how

888
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:52,360
Speaker 1: do you rate Murdoch in front of the jury. Well,

889
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,280
Speaker 1: I'm glad you asked me that, Nancy, I am because

890
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 1: you are hearing the story about as we're hearing the

891
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: story about the jury isn't like him chewing or eating.

892
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 1: I agree with you. And it reminded me of a

893
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,319
Speaker 1: trial that I had, and it was in a very

894
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 1: small courtroom, and my client was unfortunately an alcoholic, and

895
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 1: she'd been the victim of some pediat some podiatric malpractice

896
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 1: and lost her toes and her foot, and so we

897
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,760
Speaker 1: would come into court every morning, at every single morning,

898
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,879
Speaker 1: she smelled like tequila and the jury was about an

899
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 1: arm's length away from me, and I said, miss client, please,

900
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 1: you'd got to stop your drinking by midnight, because the

901
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 1: jury can smell it coming from either you or me,

902
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 1: neither of which is going to help our case. And

903
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,360
Speaker 1: so y'all right that the jury does watch, They do

904
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 1: absolutely watch the defendant, and they try to read into

905
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 1: them and determine in this case, the defendant, determine how

906
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 1: they're acting an arson. I tried mark Tay, where a

907
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 1: woman burned down an entire apart my complex because she

908
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: was mad at her girlfriend. And I had a witness,

909
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: an eyewitness that came in. It was August in Atlanta,

910
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:09,359
Speaker 1: and she had on a big faked fur hat and

911
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 1: you could smell her a mile away. She waked a boos.

912
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 1: I'm like, I know the jury could see me going,

913
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 1: oh dear, whoo whoo. Okay, So according you never did

914
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 1: grade him mark tape. But I can tell you this,

915
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: you know, eating whatever he's eating at the table. Yeah,

916
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 1: so what yeah, however, yeah, what's happening an addiction? How

917
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 1: did I know you were not done yet? Go ahead?

918
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 1: He maybe maybe he maybe gotten addicted to nicotine. It

919
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,240
Speaker 1: could be nicarette. I don't know what the heck he's chewing,

920
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:47,840
Speaker 1: but it makes him look bad to be constantly sitting

921
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 1: there chewing is good, it's not good. Well, if people

922
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: online on social media think he's eating snacks at the table,

923
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 1: then somebody on the jury may think it too, and

924
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 1: he needs to stop. Enough said about his snacks and Emerson,

925
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 1: what's happening next, We're about to go back in the courtroom. Well,

926
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 1: we certainly have a lot more testimony to get through,

927
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,919
Speaker 1: don't we. I mean we if there. This is where

928
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: the state has to be incredibly careful, in my opinion.

929
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,400
Speaker 1: We talked about it last night on our podcast on

930
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 1: Unsolved South Carolina with Charlie Condon. We were talking about

931
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 1: who is the former attorney general. We were talking about

932
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:27,320
Speaker 1: how they really really need to pay attention to what's

933
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,839
Speaker 1: going on with the juror's ability to take in all

934
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 1: this financial information. Are they going to be bringing up

935
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 1: some of the actual alleged victims right now? We know

936
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,399
Speaker 1: a lot of those victims, and we've already heard them

937
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 1: without the jury present, with Tony Satterfield talking about what

938
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: happened to his mom. So I'm expecting to start to

939
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 1: see some of these guys rolling out before we bring

940
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 1: to the crescendo the cousin Eddie testimony. Right, So we

941
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 1: are going to work our way through this. But but

942
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:00,359
Speaker 1: you know, they've caught. As we were talking about, it's

943
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 1: sort of like the dog chasing the car or the bus.

944
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 1: If they catch they caught the bus. The state caught

945
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:07,879
Speaker 1: the bus. They get to bring in all this financial

946
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 1: information right now, But what do you do with the bus.

947
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 1: You know, you've got to be careful that you don't

948
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 1: overwhelm this jury with numbers and facts and figures. It

949
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 1: gets boring and tedious. It's a hard set, you know.

950
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 1: So I think they're gonna have to get a lot

951
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:25,360
Speaker 1: of serious about this. A lot of times during trials,

952
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:28,520
Speaker 1: I would have horrible nightmares during the trials and well

953
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 1: after the verdict had come in, And I had one

954
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 1: last night, and it was about Maggie Murdog and she

955
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 1: sees her own child getting murdered. And for a mother

956
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 1: to lose their child, this is one of her only

957
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 1: two children, just shot dead. And then she starts running.

958
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't even know if you'd want to

959
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 1: live after you see your child get shot dead. And

960
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 1: then she starts running, owing to be murdered herself off.

961
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:02,479
Speaker 1: That's what the jury is going to be thinking about.

962
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 1: I wonder if they're having dreams too open headed back

963
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 1: in the courthouse, keep you're joining us here