WEBVTT - SYSK Selects: How McCarthyism Works 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.960 M Hi. There, it's Josh and for the s Y 0:00:04.120 --> 0:00:08.680 s K Selects this week, I've chosen how McCarthyism works. Unfortunately, 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:11.280 it seems like it's always a pertinent time to cover 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:15.240 McCarthy ism. There's always some jerk who's persecuting other people. 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:19.880 And I hope it opened some eyes might not otherwise 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:22.880 have been open. Uh. To our friends in the gay community. 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:27.720 Are apologies for using the word homosexual without making air quotes. Uh. 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:30.280 This was five or so years ago, and I like 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:33.800 to think we've evolved somewhat since then. But still sorry 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:36.280 about that. Uh. And just as a final note, you 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.319 should probably disregard the rules to the contest that's now 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:42.120 defunct that's come up at the end of the episode. 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.720 Contest has come and gone and it was fun. So 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:56.520 enjoy this Stuff you Should Know Selects. Welcome to Stuff 0:00:56.560 --> 0:01:05.160 you Should Know from House Stuff Works dot com. The 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:09.240 dream Police, they get me out of my bed in 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:15.440 my head right, the dream Police, I live inside of 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:19.160 my head. Okay, Well come to me in my bed. Okay, 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:21.759 thank you. I'm so glad you're here. Mr fourty year 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:25.520 old guy. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:28.840 and that is Chuck Bryant. Is that how we're starting? Yeah? 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:32.360 All right, and uh, since we started, since we started 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:35.000 off with Dream Police, you know that this is stuff 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:38.039 you should know. And you actually now know more about 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:41.520 the Dream Police than you did before. I'll wager. Yeah, 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:44.280 that's one of my Halloween costume goals one day is 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:47.920 to dress up as a dream Policeman. How would you 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:50.080 do that? Just mimic what they did on the cover. 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:54.680 They were like these white police uniforms and it was 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:58.080 all white. Huh, it's cool. Okay. I saw a tour 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:00.600 T shirt and an original tour T shirt? Who is that? 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:03.800 Cheap trick? Oh? Is it? Yeah? No, I didn't know that. 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:06.440 That was my very first concert. Nice? Was it the 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:09.679 Dream Police Tour? I'm not that old. Okay, that's the 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:13.920 one on one tour. So I'm Josh. That's Chuck Charles 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:16.480 w Chuck Bryant. And this is the weirdest intro we've 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:20.680 ever done, hands down. But um, we're here, we've started, 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:24.440 Uh STU. Words can only afford so much tape, so 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:27.400 we can't go back and record over the nope. Um, 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:29.880 so we're just gonna plug ahead, all right, are you ready? 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:34.320 I'm ready, Chuck, Josh, we talked about cheap trick. But 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:42.559 have you ever heard of another band called the Dixie Chicks. Indeed, yeah, 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:45.080 so you may remember that back in two thousand three, 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:48.400 and I believe March or two three, apparently like ten 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:52.520 days before the US invaded a Rock But when everybody 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:54.560 knew that the US was about to invade a rock, 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:59.400 the Dixie Chicks had a concert in London and Um 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.919 on stage Age Uh, the lead singer whose name escapes 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:09.160 me at the moment, okay, Natalie Um, she Uh basically 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:12.400 came out and said that they opposed the war, Um, 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:15.799 and that they they opposed the violence. And then here 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:18.320 was the kicker that they're a shamed that the President 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:20.640 of the United States is from Texas. Dixie Chicks are 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.680 also from Texas, but they were saying they're a shamed 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:26.880 of the president right that this is in London, and 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.160 they still did not have an easy time of it. 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.720 Immediately the international press jumped on it made its way 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:37.680 back to the United States, and it was war on 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:42.280 the Dixie Chicks and their lack of patriotism and their disloyalty. 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:46.240 People held demonstrations where they burned their CDs, and T 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:51.720 shirts and stuff. Um, and uh, ultimately there was a 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:54.640 radio group called Clearwater I believe that refused to give 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:58.280 them any radio play, and uh, it was pretty rough 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:00.400 going for him. They couldn't get any work or anything 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.240 like that for several years. And I was looking for, 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:08.160 um something to intro this episode of McCarthyism with. There 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:12.960 you go, that is new McCarthyism. Yeah, they were blacklisted. Yeah, 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:17.080 they couldn't get work because they expressed an unpopular, unpatriotic 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:23.400 sentiment and basically everybody turned on him McCarthy ism almost hysterically. 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:27.159 One could say they were turned on very good. But 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:30.159 they're back, baby, The Dixie Chicks are back and better 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:34.080 than ever. Are they? I don't know. Didn't they do 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:36.480 like a whole lot of like USO touring and stuff 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:39.240 to like kind of shake it off? I don't know. 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:43.880 I think they did. Hooked up with Toby Keith. Yeah, 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:47.080 that'll do it. That jingoism rubs off on you like 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.240 stank getting near that guy, and you just like start 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:54.719 to turn red, white and blue. Uh, McCarthyism, Is that 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:56.599 where we are? Yeah? I think I got us there. 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:00.400 So where do we start with this man communism? I well, 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.120 let's define McCarthy ism. I mean, that's a pretty good, 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:07.120 uh modern touchstone, but there's an actual definition of it. 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.680 What does Webster say? Well, what is the American Heritage Dictionary? 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:14.240 Hey man, Webster is British. You turned to the American 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:17.599 Heritage Dictionary to look at McCarthy ism. That's right. The 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:22.240 political practice of publicizing accusations of disloyalty or subversion with 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:25.720 insufficient regard to evidence. So that's kind of the key there. Yeah, 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.440 it's basically saying, like, I publicly accuse you of being 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:31.400 disloyal to this country and not caring about mom and 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:35.080 apple pie and baseball, and I'm going to tell everybody 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:37.080 about it, and I do, even though I don't really 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:40.240 have any real evidence. It's just suspicion. It's rail roading. 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.200 And this was all because of Jenny McCarthy, right, yeah, 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:49.280 Cormac McCarthy, sure, okay, no, of course, Joseph McCarthy. Yeah, 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.799 that was his name, and he was a senator. Should 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:54.839 we give a little background on this guy? Yeah, born 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.039 in eight If I'm not mistaken, that is right. He's 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:01.760 a Scannie. He went to Marquette Golden Eagles, Go Golden 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:06.000 Eagles really, Yeah, you know they're from basketball. No, I 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:09.120 looked it up. Okay, let's gonna say it's pretty impressive. 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:11.840 I do know them for basketball though. Uh. He became 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:14.560 an attorney in ninety five during the Great Depression, and 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:19.120 became the youngest circuit court judge in Wisconsin history in 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:23.400 nineteen thirty nine at thirty one. Very young. Yeah, that 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:26.120 is young for a judge even then, even when old 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:28.760 timey times, that's right. Uh. Joined the Marines in World 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:32.640 War Two, but because of a hazing uh incident or accident, 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:38.320 had a broken foot, so he was I guess discharged years. 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:40.960 But impressively, he made it to captain in those two years. 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.680 So he's a Marine captain. And he rode that for 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:45.440 all it was worth, as far as using it to 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:49.360 get elected to a senate, right he he. In nineteen 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:54.320 forty four he ran for Senate in Wisconsin and lost, 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:58.200 but that's where he cultivated his image of tail gunner 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:02.280 Joe that was his name. Yeah, uh and he uh 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:04.600 he he just kind of, like you said, wrote that 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.039 military service for all it was worth. Yes, But he 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:09.080 did win a couple of years later in the nineteen 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:14.000 forty six and became a junior senator and was sort 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.440 of floundering as a senator as far as making a 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:24.440 name for himself until he latched onto the idea of, um, 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:27.480 let's get some attention here and start calling out people 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:31.440 and in power as is secret communists. Yeah, so he 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:33.680 had like this two pronged attack. Chucky. It wasn't just 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:37.840 like calling out these secret communists, it was simultaneously calling 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:42.800 out the soft liberal establishment that was apparently fine with 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:46.440 letting communists game position of powers within the U. S. Government, 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.920 which was not true or was it? It's not well 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:53.360 In in nineteen fifty in West Virginia, he gave a 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:57.720 speech um on Lincoln's birthday, and he had this list 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:00.760 of like two hundred and eight names of people who 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:04.600 worked for the State Department that he said, we're like communists, 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:08.840 drug addicts, sexual deviance which was a k a for 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:11.960 being gay, um, and said that these people need to 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:15.480 be rooted out. And the list was accurate. It had 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.120 been published a few years before by the State Department. 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:21.360 But he was using it as an example of not 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:24.000 only are these is this real? Are these people really 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:27.720 in government power? But the State Department itself published this 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:29.840 list and these people still work there. So what's going on. 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:32.560 Let's go get the Communis out of government, okay? And 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:37.680 Um almost immediately this fervor, this anti communist fervor that 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.080 had just been kind of slumbering and was there and 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:43.080 taking shape. It was plenty there. People didn't like the 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:47.360 Communists in the US before McCarthy, but McCarthy came in 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:52.760 added a level of jingoism to it that just completely 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:57.719 created this anti communist hysteria in America. Yeah, there's a 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:00.280 little bit of I don't know about controversy, but back 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:02.920 and forth about how many people were on this list. 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:06.600 Uh initially was like he said two oh five, but 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:10.600 then when he submitted the speech formally to Truman the 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:12.480 next day or I think two days later, it was 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:15.079 fifty seven names. And so it's kind of gone back 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:16.679 and forth over the years on whether it was two 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:18.640 or five or fifty seven. So I think it was. 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:21.160 I think the original list that he got his hands 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.800 on and was unedited was two oh five, but possibly 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:26.400 there's just fifty seven communists on the list and the 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:30.800 rest were drug addicts or alcoholics or whatever. The irony is, 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:36.079 Chuck that Um had he been screened by that State 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:38.720 Department test. He probably would have been on the list 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:43.280 himself because he was a pronounced alcoholic. Joe McCarthy was. 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:47.320 And did you know this, he was apparently gay. Uh, 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:52.040 I've heard that, but there's been no proof of that. No, 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:55.840 it is conjecture, but there's conjecture that not only was 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:57.960 he gay, and there was a rumor back in the fifties, 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:00.480 but not only is there conjecture of he was gay, 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:04.840 but that his top aide, Roy Kane, and Roy Khne's 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:08.640 top aide, David Shine, we're gay as well. Well, I 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:12.680 don't think I think Cone was. Was he definitely gay? Yeah? Okay, 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:14.920 I mean he died of AIDS in the eighties, not 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:17.720 that that means you're gay, but I think he was 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:21.520 known to be gay, and that one was of course, 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:25.600 uh what's his name to uh j Edgar? Well, yeah, 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:28.680 so it was weird a weird time. Yeah, there's a 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:33.400 lot of homosexuals persecuting other homosexuals. Yeah, public office for 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.640 that allegedly. Well I'm curious then, I mean it was 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:41.599 McCarthy just gay by association because Roy Khne was. I 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:43.880 don't know, I think it was just never proven, Like 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:47.880 he dated two of the Kennedy Girls and was married 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:51.079 later on. Well he got yeah, he got married in 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:55.120 nine nifty two, right after the first public accusation that 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.920 he was gay was published in a column. So he 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:00.400 turned around and married a secretary and then they adopted 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:02.960 a five week old. That's kind of the formula, isn't it. 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:05.280 I guess so like, oh no, I'm in love with 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:11.880 my secretary. Look watch this. So whether he was or 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:14.360 whether he wasn't, it's kind of irrelevant. But it's fun 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:18.040 to talk about um or is it irrelevant? Well, no, 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:48.800 it's not, of course not. Okay, all right, Well let's 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:52.080 let's get back to it. So he uh, he starts 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.040 waiving this list. The list is out there. He's got 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:59.239 proof that the government's turning its back on known communists 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:04.000 who work in its own ranks, and um America starts 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:06.480 just going crazy. Well yeah, and it's it's important to 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:08.160 know what's going on here at the time. This is 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:11.360 the second Red Scare. The first one was during World 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:15.200 War One and after, and it was pretty brutal, like 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:20.080 jailing people, deporting people with not much evidence. This was 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:23.720 the second one, and at the time, a couple of 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:28.520 things had it happened that proceeded a speech. UM, China 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:30.320 had just been taken over a couple of months earlier 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:34.440 by communists chairman, very big deal. Uh. The Soviet had 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:38.040 just exploded their first atomic bomb thanks to the Rosenberg's 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.720 very well we'll get to that too, uh. And uh, 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:44.839 leaders of the Communist Party of the United States, which 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:48.160 I think they maxed out at about seventy five thousand 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:51.480 members at a certain point, which a lot of people 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:56.280 uh Uh, they had been convicted of conspiring to overthrow 0:12:56.360 --> 0:13:00.200 the government, So people were ready for the speech, which 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:02.520 it was like just the icing on the cake for 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:05.360 this fervor. Right. And I think something that's often overlooked 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:09.040 because all of the blame for this hysteria, if you 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:11.880 can call it that, even these days, um is late 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:14.080 at the feet of Joe McCarthy. But he was definitely 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:17.359 building upon, like you say, something that was already there, 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:20.840 Like there was the Sedition Act, that's Bionage Act, the 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:23.560 Alien Registration Act. All these were acts that were passed 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:26.400 by the U. S Government in response to fear of communists, 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:28.680 and he figured out how to use them to his 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:32.160 advantage to root communists out of the country. Basically and 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:34.360 to make a name for himself. Well, that was part 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:36.640 of it, might have been a big part of it. 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.720 His big problem was, though, was that, um, it's not 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.160 illegal to be a communist in the United States. Sure 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.560 it is. It's not though, it is illegal thanks to 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:49.280 the Alien Registration Act to even a bet to basically 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:52.320 sit by and let somebody try to overthrow the government. 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:55.120 And that's what they used to arrest the leaders of 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:59.079 the Communist Party of the United States. Subversion. Yeah, that's 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.520 what he was trying to get everybody on. So basically 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:06.040 he would bring you in front of his Congressional committee 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.680 and just give you the business, basically say admitted. Yeah. 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.120 And the other thing too, though, is like he was 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:18.480 immediately almost attacked by both political parties for this speech. 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.880 He wasn't. It wasn't like people the president was rallying 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:24.880 around McCarthy. He didn't get along with Truman or Eisenhower. No, 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:27.880 Truman was one of his great detractors. Eisenhower was a 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.400 supporter at first, but as we'll see, changed changed sides. 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:36.480 But yeah, he he found Truman to be a little 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:38.720 too soft on communists, even though Truman was the one 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:42.480 who made sure the Alien Registration Act got passed. It's 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.160 a weird time. Yeah, it really was. So should we 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:47.320 talk about the Rosenberg since you've lobbed that out there? 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:52.960 I have Julius and Ethel Rosenberg very famously were executed. 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:56.800 Only Americans ever to be executed for espionage in the 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:00.560 Cold War period, right now? No, I think Civil War 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.400 had plenty of people executed. First, they hung people left 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:08.480 and right. Uh, and they were were in fact communists. 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:11.920 There were known communists and played the Fifth which a 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:13.920 lot of people did, which ended up biting them all 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:18.400 in their collective took uses because that was tantamount to 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:20.960 a lot of people. Is a guilty plea right? And 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:22.920 of course the Fifth Amendment gives you the right to 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:28.400 not testify on your own behalf um, to incriminate yourself, Yeah, 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:32.280 to protect against self incrimination. The problem is is, I 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:35.320 think even today a lot of people say, well, what 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:37.520 what do you have to incriminate yourself about? If you 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:39.200 don't want to say anything, doesn't I mean you have 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:42.560 something to hide, You're guilty. And that was huge, huge 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:46.400 during the McCarthy trials that if you played the Fifth 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:49.360 you're basically saying, like, I'm not admitting to being guilty, 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:52.960 and everybody said it's guilty. That's true. But however, the 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:57.600 Rosenberg's um it has been found through the the Venona 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:03.160 transcripts and those where they they were secret Russian taped 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:07.680 recordings that were decoded in the forties but held onto 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.920 until what the two thousands when they were released it 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:13.880 made public. So now that the Venona transcripts are out, 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:19.920 we know that Ethel McCarty, I'm sorry, Ethel Rosenberg was 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:24.360 at the most and an accessory to this and not 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:30.560 you know, a blatant seller of of American secrets her 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:34.960 husband was guilty of of. Well, here's what this says. 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:38.400 It says they did not give the Soviets the secret 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:40.880 of the bomb because they never possessed the secret of 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:45.280 the bomb, and that there was evidence that Julius was 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.360 passing on information to the KGB, but it was military 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:54.400 industrial rather than atomic well selling out Boeing, So it's 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:56.560 not like they were like, yeah, that's great, they were 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:59.280 just working with the KGB on other things. But the 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:02.640 fact that they were executed is largely looked on now 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:05.119 that this has come out as a miscarriage ad justice. Well, 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.240 plus also if they're blamed like in this very article. 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.760 They're blamed for passing along the information that gave the 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:16.360 Russians the bomb, which live which led to like one 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:20.040 of the tensest periods in world history. So I mean, yeah, 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:23.640 they I imagine just their reputation, aside from the fact 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:26.280 that they were executed, just their reputation being tarnished in 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:28.359 that way. That's kind of a big deal. It was. 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.720 But you mentioned the Venona cables. They were intercepted and 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:35.879 decoded in the forties. The problem was McCarthy apparently didn't 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:38.040 have clearance enough to get his hands on these things. 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:41.439 So this is all the evidence he ever needed, but 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:44.280 he could never produce it. So what he did instead 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:50.359 was used really awful bully tactics to intimidate people into 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:55.160 admitting they were communists. And every single interview, every single 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:57.960 session was started with the same question, as far as 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:01.640 I understand, right, yeah, are you hour? Have you ever been? 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:03.159 I don't even have in front of me what was 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:06.520 it it is? Are you now or have you ever 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:09.119 been a member of the Communist Party of the United States. 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:11.239 That's how I thought you're gonna open the show. By 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:13.800 the way, no, I was going to talk about the 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:18.119 dream Police how did you not see that kind of Uh, 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:20.359 he did all this, it should be known from the 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:24.080 seat as the chairman of the Senate Committee on Government Operations, 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:27.480 which um increases level of power. But I think initially 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:30.840 he was given that position to sort of say, here, 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:33.360 just go playing that sandbox. Yeah. I don't think they 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:36.679 realized what power it gave him at the time. He 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:39.280 was very smart. He knew what he was doing. But 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:41.800 this was not who Act. No, and let's talk about 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:45.480 who Act. The House and American Activities Committee, Yes, first 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:49.800 established in seven and it was established to investigate things 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:54.400 like espionage, subversion, that kind of thing, including stuff by communists, 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:59.159 but it also originally investigated subversion by the right and 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:01.639 the left. And it was a house and he was 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:05.000 a senator. Yeah, so that's why a lot of people, 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:08.439 I think I still think that he was the chairman 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:10.280 of who Act, but that's not the game. Well he 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:12.600 how did he use it? Then? I think they worked 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:15.560 in concert. That's the best I could figure out. And 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:16.920 I was looking at that, I was like, well, why 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:19.680 is it always talking about who because they were involved 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:22.119 in the blacklist of Hollywood. But he was heading up 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:24.159 that thing, so so I guess maybe it was just 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:26.800 kind of hand in hand, like you say, working in concert, 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:29.359 because the blacklist of Hollywood happened three years before he 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:31.720 even gave his speech in West Virginia. How was that 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:34.640 when it started? Yeah? Um, well WHO ACT, the House 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:38.320 and American Activities Committee I was started in the seven 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.679 by UM. Like I said, they investigated the right and 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:44.560 the left, but they never investigated the clan because apparently 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:47.320 the three guys who were in power of the WHO ACT, 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:51.600 we're all clan sympathizers, if not members. So the clan 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:54.879 never got investigated, but everybody else did, including the communists. 0:19:54.880 --> 0:20:00.159 And it was already UM sniffed out as uh so 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:06.199 really um, insincere political tool, that's how it was being used. 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:08.880 And uh there was a guy who was the head 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:12.840 of the Progressives and he basically said, you guys are 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:15.920 using this committee as a way to wrap the flag 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:20.400 over your grease stained togas um and and you never 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:23.240 have to you never have to explain your vote because 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:25.239 all you can do you can oppose anything. You can 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.360 oppose labor unions, you can oppose the farmer, you can 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:30.240 oppose anything you want and never have to answer for 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:32.439 it because you just say that you're fighting the communists, 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:34.359 and well, the labor unions was a big part of 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:37.200 the first Red Scare was the rise of the labor 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:39.399 unions and all these strikes going on. And people are 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.879 like the labor parties, they're they're communists, right exactly, But 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:45.639 that's how it happens. Like basically they say the Labor 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:49.159 Party communism, same thing. The American public doesn't put too 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:51.560 installed into it, buys it. And now still to this 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:58.120 day people people compare the two. It's sad, it's left 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:01.200 an indelible mark. You could say it has um And 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:05.040 like you said, he was an intimidator, threatened prison, no 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:09.080 evidence or very little evidence, and he would attack people, 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:14.520 release names publicly, and ruin people's lives without any recourse. 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:19.280 Uh except that in seven the Supreme Court ruled that 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:25.080 constitutional rights of witnesses were guaranteed during a congressional investigation, 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:28.080 even though it's not court. So they got along in 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:32.040 the books thankfully thanks to him. Yeah, um yeah. Apparently 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:35.360 McCarthy's big problem was he had good information, just no evidence. 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:38.360 Like he got all of his information from the FBI, 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:42.800 from Hoover's FBI, but it was basically just here staying 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:46.480 conjecture that was right. There's just no evidence to back 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:48.000 it up. So yeah, he just used to try to 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:51.040 beat people over the head and intimidate them into agreeing, 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:54.000 and it worked a lot of times. It had worked 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:57.879 before too, when Hollywood was blacklisted. UM, there was Do 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:00.320 you want to talk about Hollywood? Yeah, let's let's do it. 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:02.240 This is the most interesting part to me as a 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:07.440 movie guy. UM. So we were talking about how there 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:11.000 was this blacklist that was created. There's an official version, 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:14.840 as I understand, right, an official blacklist? Is there? Or 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:18.480 was it all unofficial? Um? No? I mean like three 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:23.040 people were on it, but there's some like Orson Welles 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:25.920 was supposedly on it and Charlie Chaplin, but I don't 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:28.439 think that was proven or maybe I'm wrong. I couldn't 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:31.639 find found a list of people, but I don't know 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:34.000 if there was an official list passed around. There probably was. 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:37.240 So basically there was. Um there was a pamphlet called 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:40.000 Red Channels and it was put together by um, some 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:43.360 FBI guys and a producer in Hollywood, a right leaning producer, 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:48.119 and it was a blacklist. It was basically the blacklist, UM, 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:51.560 and it was distributed to everybody in the entertainment industry, 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:54.720 and basically, if your name was on there, to get work, 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:57.440 you had to go appear before the House on American 0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:02.160 Activities Committee or McCarthy and clear your name and then 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:05.000 you could get work again. Or name names. Name names, 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:07.000 and a lot of people did, like Lee J. Cobb, 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:10.199 great actor and twelve Angry Men. He named names. He 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:12.119 apparently put up a heck of a fight for a 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:15.199 while and then finally said, like, my family's starving, and 0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:17.440 I thought about it. I'm not willing to die for this, 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:20.200 so here's some names. And then he named some names, 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:21.840 and some of those people would name some more names, 0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:24.640 and people were naming names. Other people were going to Europe, 0:23:24.920 --> 0:23:27.600 like Check Baker. He was on the list because he 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:29.880 was gay, as far as I understand, so he went 0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:32.640