WEBVTT - Damon Young: A Very Smart Brotha 0:00:01.400 --> 0:00:04.720 This episode is sponsored by FX's Fleischman Is in Trouble, 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:09.399 starring Jesse Eisenberg, Claire Danes, Lizzie Kaplan, and Adam Brodie. 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:12.680 The strama tells the story of recently divorced Toby Fleischmann, 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:15.320 who dies into the world of app bass dating with 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:17.360 the kind of success he never had in his youth. 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:21.280 Then his ex wife disappears, leaving him with their two 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:24.880 children and no hint of her return. Effexus Fleischman is 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:45.960 in Trouble, streaming November seventeenth only on Hulu. Welcome to 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:49.840 p M Mood then No Talking Points, No Bullshit podcast 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:52.839 that takes you behind the curtain, off the red carpet, 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:55.800 and to the front lines of progress with change makers 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:58.840 and innovators that are doing the work to shift our 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:03.960 culture and expand and our social impact. I am thrilled 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:07.440 to welcome to p M Mood, the co founder of 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:10.679 the Very Smart Brothers dot com and the author of 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:15.119 What Doesn't Kill You Makes You Blacker? Damon, Young Damon. 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:18.640 Thank you so much for joining me. Oh thanks thanks 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:22.200 for having me. This is um This is a pleasure 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:26.640 in a treat breaking up, breaking up the monotone same 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:31.479 thing all day, every breaking up. Yeah, this is great. 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:34.960 We're breaking up the groundhogs a day. Um. So you 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:39.720 have a new book. Um, what doesn't kill you, kill 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:42.240 you make you see you blacker? Which apparently I'm gonna 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:44.200 need the T shirt, I'm gonna need the hat. I'm 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.119 gonna need a jacket. Um, I'm gonna need a mask 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:53.360 now for them. That says it. Um, tell me about 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:56.640 the title of this book and the theme behind it, 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:01.040 because for me now reading it and and and seeing it, 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:04.880 it has different feelings I'm sure from when you wrote 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:07.760 it until now when it's coming out. So tell me 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:12.320 about it. Um. So the book is about the an 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:17.720 anxiety and absurdity of existing more black in America. Um. 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:23.280 And so it's um the title actually, so there's it's 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:25.440 a funny story about the title because the original title 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:29.480 when I sold a proposal, and you know, with written 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:32.480 a proposal, told a proposal, and you did all of 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.160 that and actually had worked on it for for for 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:39.480 about a few months. M post proposal was Nigga the Roses. 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:41.960 And I want to make sure I'm pronouncing that right 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:46.639 because my accent maybe gets a little heavy sometimes and 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:48.920 I have a thick tongue. So people think I'm saying 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:54.320 Nigga in the roses because I've actually been printed transcripts 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:57.640 of interviews where people thought, that's it, Nigga in the roses, Like, no, 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:01.680 that's like a two put pro that's not. But um 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:04.520 so yeah, the original title was Nigga the roses, which 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:07.880 is a term that encapsulates the state of being where 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:13.640 you're professionally wondering how your race may have impacted your treatment. 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.040 So it could it could be something innoculous like you're 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:21.800 at a restaurant and the server you order breakfast food 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:23.840 and the server asks you if you want hot size 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:28.079 with your food, and you're thinking, like, who puts off 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:32.800 off some pancakes? Like she just this assumption And again 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.000 that's not. That's not like a dangerous thing for that 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.120 that is the thing. And then it could become dangerous 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:42.360 when you know you following a police and you're wondering, okay, 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.840 is this cop follow me in my car because I'm black? 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:48.560 And in the Bulk, I have a chapter about my 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:52.120 mom where I, um, you know, I talk about her. 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:57.400 He died it'll be seven years and in October, and 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:01.120 how I questioned whether her treatment because she died of 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:05.040 lung cancer. Would have been different if she were she 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:09.080 was black. So so again Nigga ne roses. That was 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:13.520 the concept, that was the title. And then my editor 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:17.360 at at Harpercollums talking to her people at Barnes Noble 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:20.640 and her people at Amazon, who were like, you know, 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:26.200 we love Damon, can't wait for his book, but I 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:28.200 don't We could carry a book with that title, but 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:31.279 I don't know if we get promoted the same way, 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.960 like we can't have Nigga on like seventy two point 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.160 on banner edge on the top of the page of 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:43.920 the site. Um. And and so I heard that, and 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:45.919 then you know, I had to think of a new title. 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:49.520 And I was actually on the plane the essencest in 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:53.159 twenty eighteen, UM, working on some of the working on 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:55.720 some of the dialog text and what doesn't kill You 0:04:55.720 --> 0:05:00.400 makes you black or dis academy and um in that term. 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:07.919 Just if you're black in America right now, at this point, 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.120 you should recognize, you should know by now that respectability 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:15.039 is a fucking road right, and that there's no sort 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:17.839 of like behavioral deodorant that you can wear that you 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:22.520 can apply to get people to convince people of your 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:25.640 humanity or your citizenship, like anyone who needs us. So 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:29.560 they're convincing, it's proof that they can't be convinced or 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:32.440 why even try, And so what doesn't to make the 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:38.200 blacker is basically an acknowledgement of that and also saying, 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:40.800 you know what, if we want to survive, if we 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:44.240 want to survive, if we want to exist here, we 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:51.200 have to continue to embrace blackness instead of trying to simulate, 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:55.680 trying to, I don't know, flatten ourselves out, you know, 0:05:55.760 --> 0:06:02.240 the then embracing the saunching and blackness is the way 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:06.680 to go. And that, let me ask you, because embracing 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:10.800 blackness means so many different things to so many different 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:17.040 black people, right. You know, there are sites that celebrate 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:20.799 there are all different kinds of sites melanin magic, black girl, magic, 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:24.800 black boy joy, all of these different types of things 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:30.040 that are set up to give us positive representation of what, 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:35.279 you know, what is considered a revolutionary act, which is 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:38.480 to be proud of being black, right instead of walking 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:41.400 around with your head bowed and literally stepping off the 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:45.520 sidewalk to make room figuratively and literally for other people. 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:49.160 So what does it mean for you when you say 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:53.520 that to embrace your blackness. Well, you know, I forgot 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:57.240 who it was with this quote. And I'm paraphrasing here, 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:00.600 but if there are forty million black Americans, than there 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:06.120 are forty million ways to be a black American? Right, um? 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:11.520 And and and also too, I I I try to 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:16.800 be very careful to to to articulate the idea that 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:20.000 the reality that you know, so do you have this 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:23.920 entire concept that that's pretty trendy now being unapologetically black? 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:25.880 You just you know, alluded to it. It's now your 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:28.760 question where you know you got to be unapologetically? This 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:33.360 is unapologetically that what does that look like? And I 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:39.000 recognize that for someone like me, I have more freedom 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:45.400 to say and do certain things than someone who maybe 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:49.880 worked at the bank does or some other sort of 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:54.080 corporate or more traditional you know, you know, job of environment. 0:07:54.960 --> 0:08:01.280 And so are they are they less unapologized if they 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:03.760 can't go on Twitter and cust Donald Trump out like 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:08.120 I can, you know what I mean? And and and 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:10.560 that's and that's just not that's it's not true. And 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:14.880 I think that what I mean by that and what 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:18.440 anyone you know who who has like any sort of 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:23.360 understanding of history and just and just in the present 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.960 also and just just what that means, what has meant 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:32.559 to us. It just means not thinking of your blackness 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:36.240 as like a detriment or a lack of bithology, and 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:39.880 considering it to be this is, this is, this is 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:43.680 a positive, that this is a great thing. Now how 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:47.640 that great same manifest depends on who you are, depends 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:50.960 on your life. But you know, we we we're indoctrinated, 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.120 you know, with all of this messaging about you know, 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:59.280 black being bad, black being disease, black being wrong and 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:04.920 be not unapologetic. M extracts that, you know, abstracts that 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:11.040 anti blackness, and and once the astraction happened, then you're 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.480 free to be whoever you want to be. You know, 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:20.280 that attraction, that extraction is. It's difficult because you know, 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:24.640 even people, I mean, I still find myself maybe thinking 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:28.200 or doing things that I think to myself, you know 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:31.880 that there might have been some late in the air 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:38.480 blackness and there M I get really, you know, still 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.360 in this day age twenty twenty, even though it's a 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:47.480 fuckery every year, Um, it drives me insane, like hurts 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:52.480 my heart when I see headlines about young children still 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:57.040 being suspended for natural hair. The video that went viral 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:01.520 in twenty nineteen of the young black wrest who was 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:03.720 forced to cut off his locks so that he could 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:10.000 play in the championship match. Um the prescriptions that uh 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:14.160 A elementary school put out in a black neighborhood, policing 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:18.400 how parents were dropping their kids off. No no do rags, 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:21.360 no head scarves, no this that or the other thing. 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:26.160 And you know, friends that I've had that have attended 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:30.280 HBCUs have talked about the respectabild that that's the birthplace 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:34.080 in some in some aspects their words, not mine of 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:37.360 respectability politics, and other folks saying, well, then you have 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:41.640 to understand who created those HBCUs, right, Who who created 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:47.160 those those spaces. And even though we say that if 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:49.560 there are forty million black people, there are forty million 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:55.240 ways to be black, there is this mainstream way of 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:59.160 being black or what is accepted as black. I can remember, 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.400 you know, I grew up out East on Long Island 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:06.520 in New York. And you know, as part of when 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:12.679 I was growing up, very heavy grunge scene, punk scene, skateboarders, 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:15.000 like that's what I That's what I grew up around 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:17.760 in the suburbs. I remember going to college and being 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:20.520 told because of the music that I liked that I 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:24.240 wasn't black, right. I still get joked on in in 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:27.280 many ways because Depeche Mode was the first concert I 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:32.640 ever went to. Um and you know, and so it 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.760 it's like, is it worse that we sometimes within the 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:40.800 community do it to ourselves, or is it worse that 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:46.599 we are trying to move against the reflection that society 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:50.320 has for us that white and eurocentric is the best. 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:58.080 I mean, the thing about, you know, doing it to ourselves. 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:02.800 None of us are men to to to the Leviathan 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:06.800 of anti blackness, um. None of us are me in 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:10.200 the bad you know, um and and and it sus 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:17.480 all aspects of like wherever the sunshine in America? Anti 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:22.080 blackness of too, and and so it takes a lot. 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.400 It takes It takes some effort, It takes some some reading, 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:30.520 It takes some self examination. It takes them deconstructing to 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:35.080 be able to locate it, you know, and extract it. 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:39.400 I mean, if we I hate to use the cancer 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:43.160 analogy because you know, I don't want to be insensitive 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:45.840 to people who have had cancer, but I think of 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:49.360 it in a similar manner where it's a it's a 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:52.880 tumor that will continue to grow and men test size, 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:57.160 you know, unless you are able to do with singing it. So, 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:02.920 you know, hearing stories about younger black people who might 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:06.920 have been told they were weren't black enough for or 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:10.280 this or that. You know, I've heard that before. And 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:14.680 I understand that too, because because again that that definitely 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:19.640 definitely has happened, definitely does happen, but it's not I 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:24.080 think the danger and and and I think the dangerous 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:28.040 takeaway from that is to blame black people for that, 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:39.360 um just because again, anti blackness is it's everywhere, and 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.680 even some of the most you know, I don't know 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:47.679 even in them, even if some of the most unambiguously 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:50.040 pro black people and I'm saying pro black in quotations 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:57.080 have anti blackness kind of streams. And so the question, 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:01.200 I think or or the problem isn't necessarily black people 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:06.480 who you know, have these um have these like like 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:12.360 binaries of blackness, these really limited um and calculations of 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.440 what it means to be black. But the problem is 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:21.000 a greater you know, society, greater country um that has 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:25.880 forced those definitions on us and has forced that rigidity, 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:31.960 and it's also created an environment where we have to 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:36.600 fear for our lives and so and in order to 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:41.240 respond to that sort of danger, you do or say 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:44.720 certain things that people believe will protect you, right, And 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.440 so that's why you know, when you're talking about like 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:51.080 the HBCUs and people you know maybe be intot a 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:56.080 certain way and where those lessons came from, you do, 0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:59.640 you know, have to understand or knowledge at least that 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:06.720 many of those architects came of age at a time 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:13.440 when it was legitimately life thread you just exist just 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:16.760 a little black yeah, and you know, yeah, those same 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:19.440 threats exist now, but it's it's it's just not the same. 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:23.920 This scale is not the same. And also there were 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:27.440 you know, they were very radical people then people who 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:30.400 would still be considered radical in twenty first into your context, 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:36.920 but the definition of radical chefs, I think, so what 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:40.640 might have been radical in nineteen twenty isn't going to 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:43.680 be radical and desotment twenty But it doesn't mean that 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:50.240 they aren't radical. You know, you're a father, and I 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.280 mean your Facebook posts give me life because I think 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:58.920 they're just so freaking hilarious. Um, what does it mean 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:03.760 for you, like when you were in the in the 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:07.400 early early stages of fatherhood, when you knew that you 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.200 were going to become a father, what are some of 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:16.960 the things as a black man right in America creating 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:21.080 this black family that came up for you that you 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.760 wanted to make sure that either you were going to 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:29.320 pivot away from or lean all the way into. Yeah, 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:35.240 it's um. So the last chapter mable Um is addressed 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:39.800 to my daughter sum who it's four years old now, 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:44.200 but when the book was published three yeah last year, 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:48.520 so yes, he was three. I'm a band Americum. And 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:55.520 the chapter is about just and I think you know 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:59.160 most parents have this where you have a child and 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:02.760 you wanted her out a way to give them all 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:08.200 the best parts of you while also kind of kind 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:14.120 of filtering out the bad part. You know, you want her, 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:17.040 you know, auto attributes that you believe to be the 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:19.320 one that you want to brag about, the ones that 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:21.840 you want to continue on. Those are the ones you 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:24.720 want her to have. What your children have in the 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:29.960 bad things, maybe the addictions or the anti blackness or 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:33.200 whatever that you consider to be a negative part of you. 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:35.360 You don't want your kids have that. But it's kind 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:38.480 of impossible to do that. You know your kids are 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:42.160 going to witness you, they're going to observe you, they're 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:47.199 going to um model themselves after you, and so you 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:49.679 just have to do the best job because possible to do. 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:52.320 They're rare in the right way, and teach her the 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:56.000 right way. And when you have a black child in America, 0:17:56.560 --> 0:18:01.439 there's also the idea like, okay, so yeah, you know, 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:05.520 you teach your children that they could be whoever in 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:11.920 whatever they want to be. But if you also teach 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:15.840 your black child about America, about this four hundred of 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:17.800 year old behem, if that is going to do everything 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.560 you can for thank you for filling that. Those two 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:25.640 lessons might seem to contradict, right, It's like, on one hand, 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:27.680 oh yeah, Dad, You're you're saying I could do everything 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:29.560 I want to I could be everything I want to be. 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:33.680 But you're also saying America is a motherfuck the monster, 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:38.120 and it's it's gonna have its foot on my neck 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:41.320 for basically my entire life once once I came out 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:44.880 of toddlerhood, I'm gonna have its foot on my neck. 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:49.120 And so how did those in a chapter? I ask 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:53.920 myself it's like, how did those lessons for reconcile? And 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:55.840 and and you know, as a parent, what you do 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:58.479 is you just give your child as much information as 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:03.240 possible and you tell them that, you know what, Yes, 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:07.320 America is the way America is. But it's not going 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:11.920 to stop you. It's not going to prevent you from 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:13.920 being what you want to do, what you want to 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:21.919 do it. You know, I just it's I don't have kids, 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:26.880 but you know, when I see my friends who are black, 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:32.800 um preparing to give birth or or raising their kids, 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:38.119 it seems like there is this constant refrain, right, which is, 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.879 how do I protect them but make sure that like 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:45.159 their back is always straight right, and their chin is 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:47.800 always up, and their shoulders are always back, and they 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.560 know who they are, but they also know where they 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:57.040 are right. And I think that for many it is 0:19:57.080 --> 0:20:00.480 just that constant push and pull. You know, one of 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:06.920 the chapters, I guess, the your Um opening one about 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:10.760 waiting to be called wanting looking to be called a 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:16.560 nigger and you're, you know, you're seventeen, and you're and 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.560 you're you know, reflecting on that and I remember the 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:22.479 first time that I was called a nigger, and I 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:26.080 was sixteen, and I was at school in a you know, 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:31.120 in my in my ap government in history class, and 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:36.159 I remember coming home and saying to my mother, I 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:39.720 don't understand how this happened, Like I thought that racism 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:42.560 was dead. And my mother looked at me and was 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:45.240 just like, oh, my god, I have done you the 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:49.760 greatest disservice. Right. That's why I will I will never 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:52.199 forget that for as long as I live, that she 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:56.560 was so appalled at the fact that she had reared 0:20:56.640 --> 0:21:00.120 me and raised me in this wide ass suburb of 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:03.840 of Long Island. Uh. And I was supposed to then 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:08.440 just assume that, you know, I wasn't supposed to be 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:11.919 entitled like everybody else was. I wasn't supposed to have 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:15.200 the things that they have, um and think of myself 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:17.400 in the same way and carry myself in the same 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:20.080 way that they did. That like the world was my oyster. 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:24.959 And so when I was reading, you know, it's just 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:28.840 like what was the what was the feeling there? And 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:30.680 I loved and I love the way that you talked 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:33.640 about your your your parents and their use of the word. 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:36.320 And there's always you know, you go back and forth 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:39.919 between like the Oprah generation and the younger generations and 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:43.600 the interpretation um of the word and the phrasing and 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:47.320 hip hop and this that and the other thing. What was? 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:51.600 What was? Tell? Tell folks, who who are you know? 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:56.520 Picking up picking up the book about that chapter? Oh 0:21:56.560 --> 0:22:02.399 when um my agent Karya McKinnon um first um brought 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:07.240 up first approachman um with the idea to invite a memoir, 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:13.320 m I kind of pushed back a bit because I 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:19.280 that wasn't my idea. My original idea for this book 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:22.840 would be a group of essays kind of similar in structure, 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:27.119 in form, and theme and content to how vsp is. 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:30.840 Where let's say you have one chapter that's that's like 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:35.679 a deconstruction of a white privilege, and then you have 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:39.000 another chapter that's like a really in depth book spas 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:41.680 or something, you know what I mean, another chapter about 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:45.440 Kanye or you know, there's a book of essays about 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:48.119 you know, different topics, some of them silly, some of 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:53.399 them not as silly, more sober but not really not 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:56.800 really connected to me, more connected to my five and 0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:01.479 ability when connect to me. And she was like, you know, 0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:05.639 I think that would be a great idea, but I 0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:07.840 think an even better one for you is to write 0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:13.600 the story about you, about your life and about you know, 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:17.480 all the vulnerabilities and anxieties and acts and insecurities and 0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:20.280 all that that come with it. And then you can 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:26.879 insert those cultural and racial insight and observations into that narrator. 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:32.600 And so I agree because she's smarter than me and um. 0:23:33.080 --> 0:23:37.520 And so when I when I first sat down to 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:41.000 write this book, first started thinking about it, that story 0:23:41.040 --> 0:23:44.359 about my parents that's in that first chapter was like 0:23:44.440 --> 0:23:47.840 I have, it's basically like the fullcirm of the book, 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:52.879 because you know, for people haven't read I start the book, 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:57.480 first chapter starts with a story where my parents are 0:23:57.560 --> 0:24:01.560 like racial harassed. I like this deli Pittsburg, you know, 0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:06.880 white boy behind a counter caused them niggers. My dad 0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:09.800 fights them, my mom is there, and my grandmother's there. 0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:13.320 They're throwing them like they're breaking glass. They're like there's 0:24:13.400 --> 0:24:16.920 like there's olives everywhere and pepperoni, even ice cream. It's 0:24:16.920 --> 0:24:22.200 like they basically cause a race ride. Okay, they get arrested, 0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:28.040 but then they get let go by a black sergeant 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:30.600 or whatever who takes a look at them. It's like, 0:24:30.600 --> 0:24:32.400 you know what y'all are racey harassed, so you could 0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:36.520 go home, And I said, And my parents are the 0:24:36.560 --> 0:24:40.639 sort of people who like their story, you know, so barbecue's, 0:24:40.640 --> 0:24:46.080 birthday parties, wedding receptions, cook outs, whatever, They're always telling 0:24:46.119 --> 0:24:50.280 the story about this time, this amazing story. And so 0:24:50.520 --> 0:24:53.479 I'm like eight, nineteen years old here in the story 0:24:53.600 --> 0:24:55.920 all the time. But I had never been called a 0:24:55.960 --> 0:25:00.080 nigger before, but I kind of wanted to just I 0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:04.159 would have a cool story, like my parents said, And 0:25:04.200 --> 0:25:06.600 then it became like this sort of thing where it's like, yo, 0:25:06.760 --> 0:25:10.320 what am I? And again, this is me as like 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:14.000 a eleven twelve an adolescent, as a young as a 0:25:14.000 --> 0:25:19.120 as a young teenager, questioning whether I was like black enough, 0:25:19.880 --> 0:25:22.480 whether white people considered me black enough to be called anager, 0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:26.879 and then just the absurdity of like of even thinking 0:25:26.920 --> 0:25:29.560 that and having that five and I'm a thinly called 0:25:29.640 --> 0:25:33.640 one from seventeen. I wait for a bus, a city bus, 0:25:33.640 --> 0:25:36.520 to take me somewhere in some white boy speeds by 0:25:36.640 --> 0:25:39.320 the four that's fifty in, screams nigger out of his 0:25:39.359 --> 0:25:45.080 passionate windows, and just keeps driving past. And you know, 0:25:45.280 --> 0:25:47.800 when it happened, like a part of me wanted to 0:25:47.800 --> 0:25:54.000 call like come back, whips lay now this is my moment. 0:25:54.680 --> 0:25:57.120 And then you know, you go about your life. I'll 0:25:57.119 --> 0:25:59.200 go about mine. I don't have a story, but he 0:25:59.280 --> 0:26:02.359 just kept driving and and it just gone on me 0:26:02.920 --> 0:26:07.440 right at that moment. How ridiculous it was too to 0:26:08.720 --> 0:26:15.160 give any sort of of of any sort of weight, 0:26:15.800 --> 0:26:21.040 any sort of prominence, any sort of important you know, 0:26:21.840 --> 0:26:28.280 um of my racial identity um and basically or the 0:26:28.640 --> 0:26:31.680 ridiculous sense of basing my racial identity on how white 0:26:31.680 --> 0:26:38.399 people feel about right right right um and And so 0:26:38.920 --> 0:26:41.720 that's the first chapter of the book. And I wanted 0:26:41.720 --> 0:26:43.960 to make it first because one, it's you know, the 0:26:44.000 --> 0:26:48.359 book is told in a chronological order, so that you know, 0:26:48.480 --> 0:26:50.520 by the end of the booker you know, deals with 0:26:50.560 --> 0:26:54.440 stuff that happens, you know, more in the present. But 0:26:54.640 --> 0:26:57.320 also I want people to know what type of book 0:26:57.320 --> 0:27:01.200 they were getting into, because that's a nigger in that 0:27:01.720 --> 0:27:06.640 chapter probably twenty five tive and and and also get 0:27:06.720 --> 0:27:10.080 the concept of one we called it mm hmmmm in 0:27:10.200 --> 0:27:13.400 the absurdity, in the in the humor in your two 0:27:13.560 --> 0:27:16.680 it's like, Okay, this is this is what I'm getting. 0:27:16.720 --> 0:27:19.040 This is this is what I got into. Will read 0:27:19.119 --> 0:27:27.639 this book, okay, damon Um. I also I have a 0:27:27.680 --> 0:27:31.080 bone to pick with you because you said you said 0:27:31.119 --> 0:27:36.200 something very violent in this book. You said that Darius 0:27:36.280 --> 0:27:41.920 love Hall was trash, I mean, and I felt I felt, 0:27:43.400 --> 0:27:48.080