WEBVTT - Noubar Afeyan 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:06.760 New Bar f A n is a parallel entrepreneur, meaning 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:10.400 he doesn't just create one company, he creates multiple at 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:13.119 the same time. And one of the companies he created 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:17.239 is Moderna, the COVID vaccine maker that has inoculated hundreds 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:20.360 of millions and it's now more valuable than Merk. On 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:24.520 this episode Appeared Appear, new Bar explains his brand of entrepreneurship, 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:27.680 Moderna success and his next big idea. But when you 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:30.720 came up with the idea of Moderna, did you ever, 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.479 in your wildest dreams, think that it would change the 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:36.560 world in the way that it has? Absolutely not um. 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:39.400 What we had thought of was that we might well 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:44.440 have the next generation of biotechnology, uh and something that 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:47.600 had never been even dreamt before, which is the body's 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:51.000 own ability to make its own drugs whatever it needed. 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:54.000 So the notion would be, we would introduce a molecule 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:56.720 that would code for the drug that we want, and 0:00:56.760 --> 0:00:59.360 the body would in turn translate and make the drug 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:01.800 that it needs. That was the basic idea, which was 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:04.959 itself a fantasy at the beginning, in other words, an 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:09.039 act of imagination with relatively little proof. That platform would 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:12.240 go on to create twenty different products that were being 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:15.839 tested in the clinic when this pandemic hit was something 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:20.200 we could envision, But the pandemic itself and the ability 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:23.720 for this technology to be used overnight to fight against 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.280 this very nasty virus that we could not we did 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:28.200 not imagine. When you come up with an idea for 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:30.640 a company like Moderna, do you then go get somebody 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:32.320 to be the shet yo? Do you get somebody to 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:33.840 be on the board? How did it work when you 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:37.440 start a company. So our process of starting companies, which 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:41.880 is what my company, Flagshire Pioneering does institutionally professionally, if 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:44.400 you will, we don't start with an idea for the company. 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:47.200 We start with a range of things that we could pursue, 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:49.760 of which we try to find which one actually gains 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:53.840 advantage and goes forward. So Maderna followed the same exact 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:56.520 process we have, which is we ask questions that start 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:58.360 with what if. So in this case, it was what 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.320 if we could make a code molecule that, when introduced 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:04.080 to the body, could make any medicine we wanted. With 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:06.320 that question, the question is how do you do that? 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:08.040 Is there a way to do that that's been tried? 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:11.080 What gets in the way how how reliable is it? 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:13.680 There's all these questions ahead, and so we don't start 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:16.560 the company based on the question. We start an exploration, 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:18.040 which is what we did. So in the summer of 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:20.880 two thousand ten, we began to explore these issues. Is 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:23.800 it even possible? Sometimes I've likened it to kind of 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:26.919 an archaeological dig, except of the future, not of the past. 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:28.800 You kind of pick up pieces and you look, is 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:31.200 their value here? Is their value there? So we were 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.120 in the lab setting we started doing experiments. Now as 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:37.360 we went forward, we started realizing that there was actually 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:39.680 a path that we could at least point to forward 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:41.519 to be able to make this MR and a molecule. 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:44.359 And once we get to a stage where it's becomes 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.560 to be clear that there's some intellectual property there, that's 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:49.440 when we actually say, okay, how are we going to 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:51.760 actually create a team to lead it? And what's the 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:54.480 leadership structure with a CEO. Now the company has a 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:57.360 market value that's greater than marks. It's a market cap 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:00.520 of about a hundred and ninety plus billion dollars. When 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:02.560 you first invested, and how much money did you put 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:05.880 into Maderna, Well, we capitalized the first couple of years 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:09.320 of the company's existence. So altogether, my firm deployed about 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:11.880 eleven million dollars to stand up the company over a 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:14.160 period of a couple of years, and that eleven million 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:17.840 dollars has has a return of infinite amount practically no 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:21.960 well north of a thousandfold. But this so when Maderna 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.400 was moving forward and coming up with the idea of 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:27.560 coming up with this vaccine that's helping in the pandemic. Um, 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:29.480 what did the CEO say you did you say, I 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:31.480 think I've got the way to really cure the pandemic, 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:33.840 or what did you say to him? Well, when the 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:37.320 beginnings of this pandemic, we're beginning to show themselves. This 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.920 was back January of two thousand and twenty. We had 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:45.200 a discussion about the possibility of starting a program just 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:48.160 to be in a position in case this's got serious. 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:51.000 And and interestingly, the reason was not because it was 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:52.520 a pandemic. It was not a pandemic at the time 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.080 that nobody was using that word, but because we thought 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:58.280 we'd have an opportunity to also demonstrate one of the 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:01.320 hidden advantages of our apply from which was just speed, 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:05.320 speed of execution, speed of design, seeing the traditional biotech 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:08.840 pharmaceutical world, speed is hardly ever an advantage because things 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:12.600 take such a long time in being approved and regulated 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:16.120 that going even faster often doesn't really result in much 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:19.000 of a game, whereas in a pandemic or epidemic we 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:22.560 thought we would have. Speed becomes a life or death difference, 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:24.640 and so that's what attracted us at first, And then 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.800 of course the situation caused us to put a lot 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:30.200 of our efforts into this right. But Moderna was a 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:34.039 relatively small company. Very few people heard of it. You 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:35.800 go to the government of the United States and say, 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:38.840 guess what, Forget Merk, forget vis or, forget all these 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:41.520 other companies, give us somebody. Did they laugh at you 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:43.159 at the time and they said we whoever heard of you? 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:45.599 Or was it clear that they were so interested in 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:48.599 anything that they gave you money that you needed? Um, 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:51.360 it's more the second, but even more, we were well 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:53.800 known in all the circles in the government from the 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:57.760 beginning of this effort. We partnered with nih ni H 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:01.480 was testing our vaccine in humans forty days after we 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:04.480 actually started our process. So it wasn't that they left 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:06.320 at us. From a point of course, they were worried 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:09.680 that how can a company that we don't know withstand 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:14.160 this type of uh capital slash importance if you will, 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:16.400 how can it scale up quickly? So a lot of 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.400 unknowns good news for us. Starting with Stefan and the 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:21.800 team he had assembled. There were all stars from all 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:23.680 the major farming companies. So when it was hard to 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:25.880 get um did people call you up all the time 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:27.240 in the middle of the night, so I guess, why 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:29.080 can you get me some of the molderner Did you 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:32.960 unlist your phone number or something. I did get calls 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:34.960 that I never thought I would ever get before from 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:39.640 many many country leaders. They got missed. The reality is 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:42.599 I couldn't do anything. I was completely I mean, nobody 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:46.160 could do anything legally. The entire vaccine supply was a 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:48.720 possession of the US government, the ones we were making 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:51.120 in the US. It had not been authorized for any 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:54.560 other use than emergency use, so any supply kind of 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.440 under the table, if you will, would be an illegal act. 0:05:57.480 --> 0:05:59.560 I in fact told many people that I would more 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.640 readily get an assault rifle here than I could a 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:05.760 vaccine because it was completely illegal to do anything with it. 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:08.680 So I I just it was very difficult for me 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:11.320 to understand because they've viewed it as as an innovation. 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.159 Surely you must have some lying around and people don't 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:18.600 realize just how carefully governed this whole thing was. And 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:20.520 in a way it made it a bit easier for 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:22.560 us to be honest with you, because had we been 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:25.320 able to do this, the demand was in the hundreds 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:27.400 of thousands of demands not want to do so. The 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:29.880 applicacy is around ninety three and a half percent or 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:32.200 something like that, which means that if you get it, 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:34.640 you have a pretty good chance of not getting the virus. Right. 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:37.479 That's right, But now the delta variant has come along, 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:39.880 and presume it they're gonna be other variants. Is uh, 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:42.640 the moderna vaccine going to be working against Saturday? You 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:46.560 have something just for the delta variant. We are as 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:51.440 technology developers preparing for any eventuality, including looking at what 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:55.680 our baseline of vaccine after two doses does, which so 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:59.200 far six months data we have available is very, very robust. 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:03.159 We haven't seen any real deterioration of our protection. That's first, 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:06.400 against the delta virus. We have very strong protection and 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:08.920 we expect that will continue for a period of time. 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:11.200 The problem is we don't know for how long, because 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:14.600 do you find out when your guard is down after 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.320 your guard is down. So in order to prepare for 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:21.400 that eventuality, we have begun to make variant vaccines, vaccines 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:25.080 that have different sequences that, if needed, we could accelerate 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:27.360 so that we can actually use that. So I think 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.920 we're gonna work very closely with regulators f d A, C, 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:32.680 d C here and the Europeans to figure out from 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:34.680 an arsenal of the beauty about the MR and A 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:37.240 technology is that we can actually do this type of 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:40.600 rapid response versus conventional about technology that takes years and 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:42.160 years to do the same thing. To get to the 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.440 heart of the problem my own personal situation, so I 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:47.360 got to moderner shots. Do I need a booster shot? 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.240 I think that the best advice so far is that 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:55.480 people after a certain age, and I cannot tell you 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:57.160 right now what that age cut off will because that 0:07:57.160 --> 0:07:59.160 would be set by the government are most likely going 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.480 to need a booster to be well protected against the variant. 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:06.120 And over time, again public health are gonna to decide 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:08.040 if everybody should get a bits a shot. My guess 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:11.120 is that given enough time, we may well end up 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:14.520 in a situation where we have yearly, let's say, at 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:18.040 a minimum, yearly vaccinations, just like the flu. So Tony 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.600 Falci has said that we should use this example of 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:23.960 what happened with the coronavirus to prepare for other potential 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:26.800 viruses down the road, and that hopes companies like yours 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:28.280 will do that. Are you working on that kind of 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:31.880 thing and now already are absolutely? Absolutely? A very big 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:34.520 part of my Darn future will be in being the 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:38.760 leading vaccine developer, but also with mrn A technology, but 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.679 also additional new technologies that we're considering to augment our capility. 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:45.320 But I should also say that within the broader flagship 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:48.640 pioneering context, which is where I operate, we have multiple 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:52.160 projects as well looking to expand the security net for 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:55.440 future pandemics. As we talk today, we're in Boston, and 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:58.240 it's probably not a surprise that many people would say 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.079 that people from m I. T. Or Harvard were involved 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:04.319 in MODERNA. But your background is different than many people 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:06.640 are in M I. T. And Harvard. You did not 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:08.760 grow up in this country, is not correct, That's right. 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:12.160 So I was born in Lebanon, Lebanon of Armenian parents 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:16.160 lived there till the Civil War in nineties and ended 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.480 up escaping the Civil War and growing up in Montreal, Canada. 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:22.079 So you were a teenager when you went to h Canada. 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:25.080 Was a teenager and I was extremely fortunate my family 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:27.760 was that they took us with basically as political refugees. 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:31.160 We escaped Lebanon and she went to McGill University. And 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.040 what did you major? In chemical engineering? Which was an 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:38.160 interesting field at the time because that's the field that 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:42.240 first got drawn into biotechnology when that industry started. Okay, 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:44.120 so after you graduated, you and then went to m 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:46.160 I T. Yes, I was the first graduate from the 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:49.400 by what was called the Bioprocess Engineering Center. It was 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:52.240 the first time engineers were being trained to really do 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.800 kind of advanced work in biology. And the notion was 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:58.120 this new industry was being born, and so you needed 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:00.960 engineers to come up with how tom make the products. 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:02.319 That's how I got in from where there are a 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:05.920 lot of Armenians in this MT program. I don't think 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.280 that I mean them t for many many years had 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:11.040 been some, but no, it was not. I was not 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:14.559 surrounded by familiar faces when you got your PhD. Where 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:16.880 you're gonna go teach, which is what sometimes people do 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:18.480 with PhD s and that, or did you want to 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:20.839 go into the industry and what do you decide to do? Well. 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:23.040 It was an interesting time. I've reflected on it quite 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:26.360 a bit because, uh, because this was a new field, 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.360 and I've since realized that's how kind of advanced education 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.200 systems work. The most prestigious things would have been for 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:35.440 me to go teach. And here was a field and 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.520 which didn't exist biochemical engineering, and so I could go 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:40.959 teach anywhere. I mean, this was that they needed people 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:43.400 who came, you know, who were proficient in this UM. 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:48.560 I did not really seriously think about that personality wise, 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.000 kind of what I saw a lot of the professors doing. 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:53.640 I just felt that this was not my temperament. Basically, 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.800 by the way, I've since because I've taught m idea 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:00.280 in our business school course courses, I've since realized that 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:02.880 education itself, higher education has changed so much that you 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:05.360 can be an entrepreneur and be a faculty member at 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:07.800 the same time. Back in the eighties five eighty three, 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:10.360 that was not the case. So that that's that was 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:13.360 not something I pursued. The choices then were joined a 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:16.559 large pharmaceutical company was just beginning to hire people who 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:19.240 were engineers in this field. UH. And then what I 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:22.760 ended up doing, by a chance encounter I had with 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:26.160 somebody's actually the start a company, which was extremely rare 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:28.920 back in the mid to late eighties, let alone for 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:32.200 a twenty four year old immigrant with zero experiences. Your 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.920 family say, get a real job Downstarrow company. Absolutely absolutely, 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.280 I mean even though my father was an entrepreneur in 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.080 the more trade, you know, import expert type of entrepreneur. 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.760 But but it was definitely the risk was throwing away 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:47.360 the education and the brand. All right, So you start 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:49.959 a company when you were twenty four years old, and 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:54.360 how did that company do? Company failed to fail, and 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:58.240 therefore it succeeded eventually in becoming the largest instrument company 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:01.400 in UH in the bad field at the time, which 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:06.640 was the late seven time frame. We invented a number 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:09.160 of new technologies that could be used to study and 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:11.880 make proteins, and we grew to about a hundred and 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:14.800 ten million revenues, about nine hundred people. Was a public 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.240 company for a number of years, lots of ups and downs, 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:19.719 lots of learnings, but it was for the for the 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:23.640 period ultimately a successful adventure, So you sort of a 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:26.599 Perkin Elmer. Eventually, yes, and so you cashed out. You 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:29.120 got a lot of money for a young person. Uh, 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.079 did you say I'm gonna retire now or just go 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:33.480 teach or just relax? What did you decide just how 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:35.959 to do? It was a little more complicated because I had, 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:38.040 along the way in the last few years, started a 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.000 co started, co founded a number of other companies. So 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:43.640 between ninety seven I've been involved as a co founder 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.080 of four other companies. Each of them went public, three 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:48.800 of them got sold. And so actually, in a way, 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:51.160 it was worse than just doing one thing and then 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:53.040 kind of calling it a day, because I had not 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:57.800 also exampled doing multiple things and and instead actually so 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:00.319 I did not consider retiring. But one thing I did 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.559 realize is that doing yet another company wasn't gonna accomplish 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:06.600 much just because you know, I was not drawn into 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.600 this notion of being a serial entrepreneur. And so that's 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.160 kind of when I started thinking about ideas that have 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:13.600 led me to do what I do now, which is 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:16.120 in the mid nineties, I got enamored with this notion 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:19.200 of parallel entrepreneurship uh. And at the time there was 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.400 not even a thing. Even now probably it isn't. But 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:25.400 the notion of parallel entrepreneurship was why can't you simultaneously 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:30.160 think about deeply about major new innovations and organizing companies 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:32.680 all at the same time. I was doing it individually 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.680 by partnering with different folks, and that led to institutional version. 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.480 Norm would be serial entrepreneur, where you start a company, 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:41.040 you finish it and go on next one. You're doing 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.679 several at the same time. Yes, not unlike what Elon 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.560 Musk is doing. He has SpaceX and he's also Tessay 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:50.040 years later. Yes, So when did you start raising funds 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:52.520 where people could give you money to invest and you 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:55.320 would then invest in various biotech ventures. Why did you 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.240 start doing that? So since two thousand we have operated 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.560 a series of funds, some of which has been my capital, 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:05.079 increasingly so even in the larger ones now and and 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:06.559 and the reason we did it that way, it was 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:09.360 very interesting, was that our idea was to deploy the 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:13.840 funds exclusively to companies that we conceive create the science 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:17.840 of which we generate, so as opposed to the typical 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:22.760 investment deal flow diligence, select the winners, etcetera. We don't 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:25.080 have any of that. Whatever projects make it through our 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:28.080 system get capital and they get advanced. If I had 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:30.320 been lucky enough to know you in two thousand when 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:32.200 you raised your first fund and I put a million 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:34.680 dollars in, how much would I have made by now? 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:37.720 I don't I don't have a simple answer to that, 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:39.960 but I'd say it's safe to say that over the 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:44.680 last fifteen years we've we've operated north of that are 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.800 are across everything we've done. Okay, So recently you went 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.120 out and raised a new fund three point four billion 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:53.800 dollars and that money came from individuals all over the world, 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.640 institutions who who beg you to come in And did 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.360 you turn people away? We did have to turn some 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:01.800 folks away, but we were very, very pleased with the 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:04.600 interest we got. Much of the capital came from investors 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.200 we've had for well over a decade, but upon some 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:11.000 of it was also new. These are endowments, UH, large, 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:13.520 large pension funds in this country. I'm happy to say 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:17.000 we probably represent the best the best investment multiple states 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:18.720 have made. It's up to them to say so. But 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:20.640 I know there I know the results, and it makes 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:22.600 me proud to look as an immigrant. It does make 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:26.200 me proud to have a state in some place actually 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:28.680 feel good about what we've been able to generate for 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:31.320 their own people. A lot of companies in Silicon Valley, 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:33.400 and I guess in the Boston area as well, Boston 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.760 Cambridge are started by immigrants. Maybe they are harder working 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:39.400 where they're trying to prove something. Have you observed that 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:43.920 money companies are immigrants founded. Well, factually they are the 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.160 majority in by different counts, certainly in the in the 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:50.560 Silicon Valley area. And I've been involved in various discussions, 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:53.200 certainly over a few years ago when the political environment 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:59.560 was quite against immigration, even of talent. But but indeed 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:02.600 it is the case that, um, there's a lot of 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:05.480 immigrants who tend to get to the cutting edge of 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:08.800 frontiers of things, whether it's because there's things to prove 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.360 or by nature they're taking very little for granted, and 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:16.400 and and therefore they're comfortable with the discomfort you know 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:20.000 when if you change countries, let alone forcibly, it's you 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:22.280 really don't have much time to say what's owed to me? 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:25.440 And and how come I got disadvantaged. I mean, these 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:30.280 are all privileges of rooted people. If you're unrooted or uprooted, 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.080 you don't actually you need roots to feel like you're entitled. 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:36.040 That there is a completely connected concept. Now, Sometimes when 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.000 you have a great success in life in whatever area 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.520 might be, it's hard to do it a second time 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.400 because it's rare that somebody has a second great achievement. 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.760 You've had a great achievement with moderna which really did 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:49.840 incredible things to help save the world from the pandemic 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:52.160 in many ways. Do you think you can do anything 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:54.640 as great as that in the future, So so, David. 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:58.960 What matters more to me even then, one instance is 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:02.680 to actually create, And that's what Flagships all about. Is 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:06.960 that we're an experiment in whether you could institutionally make 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:10.679 breakthrough innovations with huge impact, regardless of what field we're in, 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:14.400 and to create companies that can realize that impact. If 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:18.159 we could do that systematically, over and over and over again, 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:22.040 that is such a defiant thought to conventional wisdom that 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:25.760 says rare things only happen rarely. Well, we're saying we 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:29.280 can generate an engine that can produce companies that might 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:31.800 be a Maderna or ten times a Maderna, or a 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:34.840 tenth of a Maderna. Maderna itself was not kind of 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.800 what our design goal. Maderna was the result of a 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:41.040 process that we had already operated multiple. Maderna was called 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.240 l S eighteen when it was born. It was the 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:46.359 eighteenth set project we've done. We're now on number eighty eight. 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:49.480 And in terms of projects that are born exactly the 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:51.840 same way. Sometimes people say, well, I don't like to 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:54.800 see people to be too successful, and therefore, can you 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.040 make people feel better by saying and you fail that 0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:59.119 something any of your company has not worked out, and 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:00.280 you just said this is not going to work, and 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.200 I just write it off, or that ever happened, many 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:04.560 many of them, many many of them, and and in 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:07.640 our case quite a bit differently than it's an investment. 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:09.159 So before I write it off and I move on, 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:11.840 I can't write it off. We own the entire entity, 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:16.600 so we can't wash ourselves from a particular company. Look, 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:19.080 maybe I'll step back and say very quickly what we're 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:21.480 about the reason we use the word pioneering is we 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:25.680 leap into things that are not yet known to be viable, 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:28.280 and we try to make them real. So this leaping 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:31.800 inevitably you leap to places where there's no value. Now, 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:36.000 let's suppose, um we're going forward leave vaccines out for 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:38.640 a moment. What are the one or two or three 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.679 things that you're most interested in trying to do in 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:45.359 biotech that's gonna make my life better, other people's life better, 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:49.960 anything that makes me live longer, live healthier, avoid cancer, 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:53.199 is anything like that. One major theme that we that 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:55.080 inspires us and that we're doing a number of things 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.800 in is broadly what we call preemptive medicine or health security. 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:01.480 And what we mean by that is that we observe 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:05.080 that what we call today healthcare is really a euphemism 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:06.960 for sick care. And the way you know that is 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:08.960 because you gotta get sick to get any of it. 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:11.320 But and other than that, there's fitness and living a 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:14.280 good life. But in between, we now know scientifically that 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.520 the beginnings of disease go way before we know we 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.000 have a disease, and if we could intervene at that 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:24.359 time and delay or completely deterred the disease, then we 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.920 have a very different healthcare cost challenge. Let alone a lifestyle. 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.359 Currently there's no way of developing products for that for 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:34.680 that field because the FDA doesn't regulate it. They don't 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:37.400 they won't let you do it, the insurance won't reimburse it. 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.280 They need a good disease, let alone a really advanced 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:43.280 one to do their thing. We have to change that mindset. 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:45.760 So how how can Flagship contribute to this? And we're 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:49.320